To continue: You mention the importance in communal grieving, of friendship and of relating with others; you mention the very human aspects of our lives on this earth. You also mention the power of art, of music, etc. I agree with you that these have very little to do with fundamentalist Christianity- but it is at the very heart of the Catholic Imagination. I am not trying to convert anyone by saying this, but am trying to point out the beauty of the human experience that the Church promotes.
Think of the sculptures of Michaelangelo, the paintings of Perugino, the music of Mozart- not to mention the literature and poetry supported by the Church as good. The Church has a lot of practical tools for dealing with pain, with suffering. Even the knowledge that God Himself suffered reminds us that this suffering we experience contains a power. But, anyone with faith does not become a Christian for its practical solutions to problems- but because it is, perhaps, true.
I think your critique is well taken. But, I think the critique has more to do with Christianity gone wrong, or being told, as an unbeliever, that everything will be ok by a Christian. If I were an athiest (or agnostic- which at one point I was), the phrase "he is with God now" would be meaningless, and might even inspire anger within me. But, for a true believer- someone who devotes their whole being to God- those words have more consolation than anything else in this world.
My greatest comfort is that God is there suffering with me in pain. I agree, the idea that "put your faith in Jesus is worthless. However, I have God as a friend, my greatest friend--the only one that I can always rely on and I know who understands me. That is where the comfort in Christianity comes from--the God who suffers suffering with us, just as Christ suffered on the cross.
I think what a person gets from their religion is often some combination of the religion and how they approach it. From my own experience (which I admit may be unique), I often found the emphasis on having faith to be something akin to blaming me for being hurt. Something akin to saying that if I had more faith or could somehow manage to "turn it over to God" everything would be OK. I found very little comfort there, but someone that can manage such an approach very well might.
Perhaps ideally religion should be in the business of finding answers to such questions and providing comfort. I know of no such religion, however, as they all seem to find themselves, sooner or later, concerned only with regulating behavior and defining morals, usually with the threat of eternal punishment for those who disobey.
Perhaps it is regrettable, but if you want answers or comfort in the face of such problems religion is not the place to find them.
e.g my religion, from what I have seen, operates on two levels: the individual level (comfort, moral guideance) and the social (the regulatory aspect you understandably dislike). Hinduism and Bhuddism also do so, perhaps even a better job. I in fact posted a while ago that it played a role in the coping with my grandfather's loss.
however, that is not to say religion ALONE can quench ones mourning for a loss, only help alleviate it.
For me, philosophy always did and does the work Christianity was supposed to do and Art did and does so as well, depending on what it expresses.
The more I leaned about Philosophy (and Science) the more I realized that Christianity has nothing to offer, that an other philosophy didn't offer in a better way.
So for many of the years I remained Christian, I remained because of my own Ignorance.
I lost my grandfather a few years back; I remember the sudden, shattering feeling it had on me then.
I remember the depression coming upon me. I also remember how I turned to self contemplation and reflection, with the thought that this death, as shattering as it was, was the inevitable end of all of us. I also remember the help from my friends and teachers, and the realization that my grandfather would rather have me throw myself to my studies, as he placed value in knowlege.
I think the key to the process of mourning is the acceptance of the event-that is not to say that one must just "ignore" the death, but to come to terms with it in he time you have with friends, self, and I freely confess, partly by prayer, though prayer alone is not the answer. and through it, one can hope for a "rebith", like in star trek.
at least that happened to me-I'm not the same as I was before that.
I tried to articulate as best as possible, but I don't think this nails it :(
I agree, the lack of understanding when it comes to death of a loved one or a great loss by some christians is appalling. You need other people and friendship to get you through not "Jesus".
I lost my beloved grandmother two and a half years ago and fell in a strong depression. I came back to my goofy self after months of diving back in Nietzsche, Camus, Sartre... I understand the deep need of a crutch when we lose someone we cared about. Even though I'm agnostic, I found myself wishing of a paradisiac afterlife where she would be waiting for me. It is comforting in those vulnerable moments.
I agree, perhaps it is that Xtianity has to work within the confines of overarching heirachial structures, causing them to be more conservative and more resistant to change than Hollywood, which is constantly looking for the "next' thing.
I think ppl misunderstand their thoughts on their religion quite often,which doesnt really help ppl that don't believe already. To 'put your faith in Jesus' would mean to believe that he died for the remission of our sins & was resurrected. The Bible states that life will be hard..Life's pain is inevitable at some point for everybody. & death'll forever be a mystery,until we all die,of course...
Having grown up in a fundamentalist family, and having all my most pressing problems be answered by the pat phrase, "pray about it"; and then when my parents died, to be met with the time-worn phrases, "They're in a better place now", or "You'll see them again at the Resurrection", this video cut very close to home. I'll always remember when, following the death of my mother, I received from the church office, a letter addressed to me but offering condolences on the death of my wife.
No, I'm single. I failed to put that in my post, I'm guessing because I ran out of room. I meant to convey that following the death of my mother, I got a form letter from the church office offering condolences on the death of my non-existent wife. I imagine that somewhere, probably an old widower is still puzzled over why he received condolences from the church about the passing of his mother...
Well spoken, well thought out and perfectly delivered as I have come to expect. Though I'm not a Star Trek fan so that part felt a little goofy but on point.
I think that, in everything, the entertainers are always the pathfinders of the social questions. Even in medieval times, it was mainly the job of the jesters, the entertainers, to bring up the uncomfortable questions that society was always so afraid to ask. Whether it was because no-one else would, or because they were in a position to do so, remains to be seen.
i agree with you that the sole phrase that one should "put his faith in jesus" when he is suffering doesn't help... its not enough... its bad pastoral care...
To take it a step further, it's shrugging the responsibility of human compassion onto some supernatural entity that most people aren't even sure exists... It's sheer negligence, perhaps even apathy.
Indeed, christianity never seemed to offer any real solutions to these human concerns for me; all it really offered was worthless denial of human suffering, as though our grief and pain isn't really there. Can anyone really blame me for leaving?
Heartbreak, loss; misery and pain. All inevitable. Terrible, wonderful, life ending, life affirming. Console yourself in the knowledge that at least you can feel it, that your story is not unique. That is what truly binds people together, the fragility of human emotions and the homogeneity of human experience.
I can't find it right now, and it's on the tip of my tounge... but wasn't it Socrates who said [paraphrased] that the rhetoricians never get the tough questions right, and the artists accidentally get it right some of the time?
Kind of. He said that artists and poets seem to have an innate, instinctual drive to create their art, and don't really understand the deeper meaning behind their own symbolism. though, I read that back at the beginning of the semester, so I don't quite remember what he said of the rhetoricians.
Addressing the human condition in the form of subtlety and everyday relevance has always pervaded art. Religion, on the other hand, typically offers absolutism. For those unwilling to immerse themselves in the human experience, this makes life somewhat easier, if not overly simple. Art reminds us that we are emotionally complex creatures, and rightly so.
To answer your question, art is doing the job its supposed to do, same with religion.
recently, i discovered that the people that i considered good friends disliked me. the found me annoying and self centered. i probably am. anyway, i have found myself humming very cheerfull songs all day. wether this is because they're songs from my childhood, or just cheerfull, ill never know. however, the point is that its not always sad songs that can pull you out of a black mood. connecting with your past can do it just as well.
Art is universal, art strikes at the core of what it is to be human. Art transcends the boundaries of culture and language..art can be a thing of beauty, art can be both ugly and fascinating art is the hope and expression of man to a place of permanence...religion is a vacant hole.
s to the final question, I think art succeeds where religion fails because art is much more effective at engaging people. Religion is simply the answer, you are supposed to take it as it is given and that is all it can do for you. Art forces you to think more, a thousand people can listen to a single song or look at a single painting and each have walk away with a different meaning. Finally, great art goes further by asking as many qustions as it answers.
What comfort is there? I find myself agreeing with Epictetus when he says, Things are what they are, and we should learn to live with that. There is no strength against death. There is no overcoming the essential truth that we are alone.
Any offer of comfort against these hard truths, that I have encounter, appear to be nothing more than soothing lies. Such lies leave their adherents naked to and unprepared for the harsh realities of life.
We all have our tools for dealing with loss and grief in our lives. While these tools are entirely subjective, it is important to realise that to elavate them past that subjectivity, is to breach the rationailty of these tools.
For instance, when I am blue, I find peace with Billy Joel's "Until the Night" or Annie Lennox's "Love Song for a Vampire." While these songs may not be important to someone else, it is not necessary for them to be such. They are my tools and they work for me.
Where I would cross the line with this, would be to say "If you don't like these songs, you are an idiot" or "These are the best songs ever. If you don't like them, you are musically impotent."
Religion enters the realm of taking itself too seriously. Those that worship that religion take their tool too far; claiming the damnation of those who don't believe in their tool.
In the end, I do not believe Billy Joel will give me eternal life or the Annie Lennox will save me from myself.
I am whole heartedly an advocate for escapism...as long as you can still distinguish reality from fiction. It is perfectly healthy, if not fulfilling, to be lost in a book or movie or to get caught in the etheral flow of a song.
It is not healthy, however, to think that these are solutions. After all is said and done, it is only us that heal ourselves. Tools are just the way we allow ourselves to do it.
I do believe that religion can add false hope as a placebo. I know my grandmother is able to live her life knowing that one day she will be reunited with her partner of 50 years that died years back. It makes life livable for her.
Not that it excuses religion. If we grew up without it I think many more people would be strong enough to continue without it, but while living without loved ones is so terribly difficult, thinking you'll see them again can be comforting.
Religion is art. I've always believed that the two are pretty much one and the same.
Ever notice how involved certain people get with certain works of art? I have an obsession with Johann Sebastian Bach to the point where I almost treat him like some deity in a proxy religion: I buy all his autobiographies, have his entire works several times over, etc. It's the same thing with Star Trek and Lord of the Rings and so on; people become obsessed with understanding every thread in the tapestry.
Sadly, there is little I can offer to the conversation, as I find myself agreeing with you on all points. The emotional fulfillment or comfort offered by religion is oftentimes just as easily, if not moreso, provided by art, and the line between the two is far grayer than is supposed by most. Religion has inspired art, and art can inspire feelings of closeness with take your pick of god, fellow man, the universe, etc. The only difference I see is that art does not mandate adherence to dogma.
Interesting video, though I'm not fully convinced that religion is entirely incompetent in providing comfort. Christian philosophy, abhorrent though as it is in my eyes, does convey the message that God himself suffered along with mankind and therefor understands suffering and is empathically involved in it.
I think that people find comfort in religion, just as I would find comfort with someone of the same political affiliation. The membership to the community gives religion a certain gene se qua.
So perhaps "God" may not respond, but "God" works through his children. at least that thought is comforting. Although when comparing this to loved ones you would think that it was a gross distortion of the "plenty of fish in the sea" cliche.
Thanks for another great, thought provoking video!
fantastic video I really feel you hit the nail on the head by addressing what little respite christianity, and more importantly, fundamentalism can truly offer some people.
Actually, religion might indeed not be as impotent. I believe it can bring comfort to a wounded heart thanx to its community. Most Christians are still human and will be there for one of their own: the religious link playing a factor of a shared identity.
Even fundamentalist may express premade answers to confort a person, these answers being the only thing they can come up with.
Of course, this has nothing to do with the biblical doctrines who are indeed useless except when refusing the loss.
I will concede that religion in the proper hands can be good. In this video, I conflated Christianity and Fundamentalism in the interests of brevity and because I think the point comes into sharper relief.
It might be worth mentioning the difference between Christianity the religion and Christianity the culture.
The modern cultural Christianity is progressive and secular. I first got to thinking about it when hearing Richard Dawkins saying he was a cultural Christian.
I don't think it gets talked about much because you can take something like cultural Islam and find most of it's glory has passed and the the ugliness of it today relies on Islam the religion to justify.
(continued) This can give the impression that someone pointing this out must be saying Christianity is culturally superior to Islam and other religions when compared. I don't know if that's the case but I don't think we should choose religion based on pro VS con anyway.
I might even only be talking about Christianity as it is in Britain where the state religion is Church of England, which is the little old lady of religions. So it might not be comparable with other Christian sects.
Job said it best, "For I know that my redeemer lives, and in the last day I shall rise from the dust, after my skin is restored, and in my flesh I shall see God. Whom I, even I, shall see and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart burns within me for that day." Job 19:25-27
The grimm's said it better. "Gretel, however, ran like lightning to Hansel, opened his little stable, and cried: "Hansel, we are saved! The old witch is dead!"
I don't think that truth is ever pleasant, whether submitted by a religion or a friend. The bible certainly is very raw and lacking in sensitivity. In fact, it often enourages people to mourn and grieve (lamentations, ecclesiastes etc..)
I think art is taking a heavy load like your question suggests. Rock music tends to fight 'the man', it would seem that christian fundamentalism is now 'the man'. Sad.
as it is said in the gospels,most people travel the wide road..in other words,most people dont make it to heaven. the last person i would want comforting me with a lost loved one is a christian....especially if that loved one lived his life freely. my only comfort would be with most of the people i love is that christianity is false....
I think the problem is that Christians, particularly fundamentalists, simply do not have means with which to effectively comfort or console someone who is grieving or heartbroken. All they have is 'Put your faith in Jesus'. There are plenty of passages in the Bible that offer the illusion of profundity but provide nothing of any real value.
They simply do not know and rather than admit such, they plug their gaps with God and Jesus.
Wherever the answers to lifes mysteries are I am fairly certain they will not be found in the morass of ramshackle metaphysics, infantile morality and painfully kitsch presentation that is christianity.
I can't put it any better than Pat Condell did when he said that Christianity is a death cult. All the focus is on the next life with no answers for this one. They don't have any answers for this life and they have no interest because for them, existence only starts after we die. If you lived to be a million, billion years old, that less than the blink of an eye in Eternity.
When, some time ago, an Amish community was devastated when a murderer slaughtered a number of school children, the Amish didn't cry out to God. Instead, they fallowed the example of Jesus and forgave the killer. When Christians suffer terrible loss, they are not to seek revenge, place their faith in Jesus, or even pray. They are to forgive and let go. That is a value few Christians, even the most pious, because it is so counter to human nature.
that may be touching yes but forgiving to a school shooter is not always the best option. it a person has already gone berserk and killed people do you really trust him to be in the school again with the same students he was shooting at? forgiveness may be a virtue but only when it prevents injustice
That remains to be seen. As it is the case, the Law had no choice but to apprehend the perpetrator, so perhaps forgiveness is a luxury they can afford. Although, I would hardly consider a luxury denying yourself the satisfaction of a criminal's execution.
I think the point is, they have given up their burden to hate. And, instead, love their enemy, which is a commandment of Jesus.
The hope is that forgiveness will bring evil people to repentance by giving them a chance to do so.
The point of Theo is that Christians ask how they can assure their salvation instead of how to live their life well.
If a person is a Christian, their is no question about their salvation. The question for them is how they can get other people "saved". And if they are an even more virtuous Christian, they will be charitable to all of those in need. If you want friends, you must be friendly. If you want kindness, be kind, etc.
Since the bible is art, I'm not sure the question can be answered with anything but a "yes". Our modern stories do capture things more accurately for our time.
"Is art doing the work that religion should be?" Absolutely.
As Steve Martin's character says in Grand Canyon "That's part of your problem: you haven't seen enough movies. All of life's riddles are answered in the movies."
Art has always done the Job religion claims to do, in fact, religion has relied on artistic devices more than anything else to get its points across whether it is the epic poetry that is the foundation of almost every religion to the masterful paintings and scluptures done my michaelangelo(sp?). Even early Chinese civilizations put a great emphasis on poetry and song (excpet for the moists who felt it was a waste of time :p). Take art away form religion and . . you dont really have anything.
This just shows how inadequate religion is. If you look to religion for knowledge, morals or solace you will fail. After all, religion is the thing that preaches that the earth is flat and slavery is acceptable in between garbage filler phrases that order you to put your faith in the supernatural or suffer eternally.
But the reality is that there is no supernatural. There is only reality. The supernatural, by its very nature, cannot exist. So any attempts to define such are pointless.
How can you be so certain of the nature of something that does not exist?
One of my biggest beefs with many atheists (but not all) is the constant defining of the indefinable with definitions so convenient as to make them easy to disprove.
Atheism should be based on the lack of evidence for that which is beyond reality, not made up definitions that are easy to dismantle. The former argument is strong, but the latter is weak.
Religions are not fact. They are fiction. I know they are fiction because they contradict reality, themselves and each other. If a religion is to be factual then it must not contradict anything. It must not have contradictions withnin its "holy" book. And its "holy" book must not contradict another "holy" book.
Religion is just a fan club gone mad. Each fan club has its own rule book, rituals and leader.Theists must understand that IT IS THEIR JOB TO PROVE THEIR POSITIVE CLAIM.
right, but in addition to that religions are based on FAITH. That's why it can't be fact, because facts are supported by evidence, which their beliefs isn't (belief is based on pure faith or pseudo-evidence).
As for art, I'm with you there. Music is my main squeeze in that regard, but you have to remember that not all people get anything from art. This is at once the greatest and the damndest thing about humanity; no one is the same.
And in the same way that some propose there is a God gene, perhaps there is an art gene which has a similar function with regards to a person's emotional health and well-being.
no i dont think that religion can help with greving people at all. god never speaks to people in any real way so nothing will change there and what does it even mean to "put your faith in jesus" so thats no help. it seams that the fundmetlist your talked to only answer to your pain was that your should have loved her less! and jesus is saposed to be all about love!
"Put your faith in Jesus" is at once a sure fire win and a monumental failure, in that it may help some people "reset" their emotional state, which is often what holds people back - say, the loss of a love keeps one from finding love again, which is what would fix that particular problem.
It's a lot like a placebo if you ask me, which is probably why there are so many adherents of religion.
One probably shouldn't underestimate some people's ability to delude themselves happy.
To continue: You mention the importance in communal grieving, of friendship and of relating with others; you mention the very human aspects of our lives on this earth. You also mention the power of art, of music, etc. I agree with you that these have very little to do with fundamentalist Christianity- but it is at the very heart of the Catholic Imagination. I am not trying to convert anyone by saying this, but am trying to point out the beauty of the human experience that the Church promotes.
DeantheNorbertine 1 year ago
Think of the sculptures of Michaelangelo, the paintings of Perugino, the music of Mozart- not to mention the literature and poetry supported by the Church as good. The Church has a lot of practical tools for dealing with pain, with suffering. Even the knowledge that God Himself suffered reminds us that this suffering we experience contains a power. But, anyone with faith does not become a Christian for its practical solutions to problems- but because it is, perhaps, true.
DeantheNorbertine 1 year ago
I think your critique is well taken. But, I think the critique has more to do with Christianity gone wrong, or being told, as an unbeliever, that everything will be ok by a Christian. If I were an athiest (or agnostic- which at one point I was), the phrase "he is with God now" would be meaningless, and might even inspire anger within me. But, for a true believer- someone who devotes their whole being to God- those words have more consolation than anything else in this world.
DeantheNorbertine 1 year ago
@DeantheNorbertine
I haven't thought of the Norbertine's in ages... we should chat some time.
theowarner 1 year ago
@theowarner I would love to chat anytime.
DeantheNorbertine 1 year ago
@DeantheNorbertine
Ha... what are you doing right now?
theowarner 1 year ago
@theowarner Not much at all!
DeantheNorbertine 1 year ago
@DeantheNorbertine
I just PMd you.
theowarner 1 year ago
If your loved one survives it's "Praise god!". If they die, then god happened to be working in mysterious ways that day.
I think that the fine print for christianity should read "Does not work as advertised, your experience will vary"
Raptor302 1 year ago
My greatest comfort is that God is there suffering with me in pain. I agree, the idea that "put your faith in Jesus is worthless. However, I have God as a friend, my greatest friend--the only one that I can always rely on and I know who understands me. That is where the comfort in Christianity comes from--the God who suffers suffering with us, just as Christ suffered on the cross.
triggergnu 2 years ago
I think what a person gets from their religion is often some combination of the religion and how they approach it. From my own experience (which I admit may be unique), I often found the emphasis on having faith to be something akin to blaming me for being hurt. Something akin to saying that if I had more faith or could somehow manage to "turn it over to God" everything would be OK. I found very little comfort there, but someone that can manage such an approach very well might.
myodoc42 2 years ago
Perhaps ideally religion should be in the business of finding answers to such questions and providing comfort. I know of no such religion, however, as they all seem to find themselves, sooner or later, concerned only with regulating behavior and defining morals, usually with the threat of eternal punishment for those who disobey.
Perhaps it is regrettable, but if you want answers or comfort in the face of such problems religion is not the place to find them.
johnthenobody 2 years ago
they don't-at least not necessarily.
e.g my religion, from what I have seen, operates on two levels: the individual level (comfort, moral guideance) and the social (the regulatory aspect you understandably dislike). Hinduism and Bhuddism also do so, perhaps even a better job. I in fact posted a while ago that it played a role in the coping with my grandfather's loss.
however, that is not to say religion ALONE can quench ones mourning for a loss, only help alleviate it.
Albukhshi 2 years ago
For me, philosophy always did and does the work Christianity was supposed to do and Art did and does so as well, depending on what it expresses.
The more I leaned about Philosophy (and Science) the more I realized that Christianity has nothing to offer, that an other philosophy didn't offer in a better way.
So for many of the years I remained Christian, I remained because of my own Ignorance.
AppliedMathematician 2 years ago
I lost my grandfather a few years back; I remember the sudden, shattering feeling it had on me then.
I remember the depression coming upon me. I also remember how I turned to self contemplation and reflection, with the thought that this death, as shattering as it was, was the inevitable end of all of us. I also remember the help from my friends and teachers, and the realization that my grandfather would rather have me throw myself to my studies, as he placed value in knowlege.
cont:
Albukhshi 2 years ago
I think the key to the process of mourning is the acceptance of the event-that is not to say that one must just "ignore" the death, but to come to terms with it in he time you have with friends, self, and I freely confess, partly by prayer, though prayer alone is not the answer. and through it, one can hope for a "rebith", like in star trek.
at least that happened to me-I'm not the same as I was before that.
I tried to articulate as best as possible, but I don't think this nails it :(
Albukhshi 2 years ago
I forgot, I'm not christian myself; part of what I did was influenced by my religion, others by "nature" I guess.
I still think I didn't nail it :(
Albukhshi 2 years ago
dark side of the moon- legendary
TheProf1988 2 years ago
lol star trek
PianoMixMan 2 years ago
Love that it ended with "Troika." That makes the whole idea that much better.
desertedcities 2 years ago
I agree, the lack of understanding when it comes to death of a loved one or a great loss by some christians is appalling. You need other people and friendship to get you through not "Jesus".
Luigi84289 2 years ago 2
I lost my beloved grandmother two and a half years ago and fell in a strong depression. I came back to my goofy self after months of diving back in Nietzsche, Camus, Sartre... I understand the deep need of a crutch when we lose someone we cared about. Even though I'm agnostic, I found myself wishing of a paradisiac afterlife where she would be waiting for me. It is comforting in those vulnerable moments.
montrealpsycho 2 years ago
I agree, perhaps it is that Xtianity has to work within the confines of overarching heirachial structures, causing them to be more conservative and more resistant to change than Hollywood, which is constantly looking for the "next' thing.
mtlsoul 3 years ago
I don't care if people laugh at me! I have to admit it! I....I.............I like Paul Simon!
10secstomeltdown 3 years ago 2
I think ppl misunderstand their thoughts on their religion quite often,which doesnt really help ppl that don't believe already. To 'put your faith in Jesus' would mean to believe that he died for the remission of our sins & was resurrected. The Bible states that life will be hard..Life's pain is inevitable at some point for everybody. & death'll forever be a mystery,until we all die,of course...
layziboi 3 years ago
Having grown up in a fundamentalist family, and having all my most pressing problems be answered by the pat phrase, "pray about it"; and then when my parents died, to be met with the time-worn phrases, "They're in a better place now", or "You'll see them again at the Resurrection", this video cut very close to home. I'll always remember when, following the death of my mother, I received from the church office, a letter addressed to me but offering condolences on the death of my wife.
huntonpeck 3 years ago 9
@huntonpeck your wife died too? damn that sucks
omaregb 1 year ago
@omaregb
No, I'm single. I failed to put that in my post, I'm guessing because I ran out of room. I meant to convey that following the death of my mother, I got a form letter from the church office offering condolences on the death of my non-existent wife. I imagine that somewhere, probably an old widower is still puzzled over why he received condolences from the church about the passing of his mother...
huntonpeck 1 year ago
@huntonpeck get married and kill your wife, that would fix it
omaregb 1 year ago
Well spoken, well thought out and perfectly delivered as I have come to expect. Though I'm not a Star Trek fan so that part felt a little goofy but on point.
Otokogoroshi 3 years ago
I think that, in everything, the entertainers are always the pathfinders of the social questions. Even in medieval times, it was mainly the job of the jesters, the entertainers, to bring up the uncomfortable questions that society was always so afraid to ask. Whether it was because no-one else would, or because they were in a position to do so, remains to be seen.
This idea certainly bears reflection.
nutrawk669 3 years ago 4
yuo are right mate
keep up the good work
garydocool 3 years ago
Is fiction doing the work of religion?
That's a bit like asking if vehicals are doing the work of cars? That said, when I'm having tough times I think of Frodo.
soulinite 3 years ago
Wonderful videos, all of them are very insightful. Keep them coming.
P.S. Appreciate the Love & Death excerpts. ;)
lneely42 3 years ago
i agree with you that the sole phrase that one should "put his faith in jesus" when he is suffering doesn't help... its not enough... its bad pastoral care...
sophophilo 3 years ago
To take it a step further, it's shrugging the responsibility of human compassion onto some supernatural entity that most people aren't even sure exists... It's sheer negligence, perhaps even apathy.
lneely42 3 years ago 3
Indeed, christianity never seemed to offer any real solutions to these human concerns for me; all it really offered was worthless denial of human suffering, as though our grief and pain isn't really there. Can anyone really blame me for leaving?
bl4ckd0g187 3 years ago
Very, very touching. As always, you produce a great video.
hollyfromdallas 3 years ago
This video is just a bunch of pseudo-intellectual nonsense . . .
vilen25 3 years ago
I wish you'd explain yourself.
theowarner 3 years ago
@theowarner too much elton john, too much star trek, and those weakly supported arguments bassed exclusively on opinion make this...well, nonsense
omaregb 1 year ago
You should try keeping up.
cactuslightpole 3 years ago
Heartbreak, loss; misery and pain. All inevitable. Terrible, wonderful, life ending, life affirming. Console yourself in the knowledge that at least you can feel it, that your story is not unique. That is what truly binds people together, the fragility of human emotions and the homogeneity of human experience.
lowcomedy 3 years ago
Indeed.
theowarner 3 years ago
I can't find it right now, and it's on the tip of my tounge... but wasn't it Socrates who said [paraphrased] that the rhetoricians never get the tough questions right, and the artists accidentally get it right some of the time?
bhig3 3 years ago
Kind of. He said that artists and poets seem to have an innate, instinctual drive to create their art, and don't really understand the deeper meaning behind their own symbolism. though, I read that back at the beginning of the semester, so I don't quite remember what he said of the rhetoricians.
bl4ckd0g187 3 years ago
"Is art doing the work that religion should be?"
Addressing the human condition in the form of subtlety and everyday relevance has always pervaded art. Religion, on the other hand, typically offers absolutism. For those unwilling to immerse themselves in the human experience, this makes life somewhat easier, if not overly simple. Art reminds us that we are emotionally complex creatures, and rightly so.
To answer your question, art is doing the job its supposed to do, same with religion.
TotemX 3 years ago
Very Sagan-esque. Good work
crazymalc 3 years ago
recently, i discovered that the people that i considered good friends disliked me. the found me annoying and self centered. i probably am. anyway, i have found myself humming very cheerfull songs all day. wether this is because they're songs from my childhood, or just cheerfull, ill never know. however, the point is that its not always sad songs that can pull you out of a black mood. connecting with your past can do it just as well.
9823475 3 years ago
Art is universal, art strikes at the core of what it is to be human. Art transcends the boundaries of culture and language..art can be a thing of beauty, art can be both ugly and fascinating art is the hope and expression of man to a place of permanence...religion is a vacant hole.
Agretalien 3 years ago
Troika is such a brilliant song.
s to the final question, I think art succeeds where religion fails because art is much more effective at engaging people. Religion is simply the answer, you are supposed to take it as it is given and that is all it can do for you. Art forces you to think more, a thousand people can listen to a single song or look at a single painting and each have walk away with a different meaning. Finally, great art goes further by asking as many qustions as it answers.
andyhoov 3 years ago
What comfort is there? I find myself agreeing with Epictetus when he says, Things are what they are, and we should learn to live with that. There is no strength against death. There is no overcoming the essential truth that we are alone.
Any offer of comfort against these hard truths, that I have encounter, appear to be nothing more than soothing lies. Such lies leave their adherents naked to and unprepared for the harsh realities of life.
pumkinpi2 3 years ago
We all have our tools for dealing with loss and grief in our lives. While these tools are entirely subjective, it is important to realise that to elavate them past that subjectivity, is to breach the rationailty of these tools.
For instance, when I am blue, I find peace with Billy Joel's "Until the Night" or Annie Lennox's "Love Song for a Vampire." While these songs may not be important to someone else, it is not necessary for them to be such. They are my tools and they work for me.
Beauwrath 3 years ago
Where I would cross the line with this, would be to say "If you don't like these songs, you are an idiot" or "These are the best songs ever. If you don't like them, you are musically impotent."
Religion enters the realm of taking itself too seriously. Those that worship that religion take their tool too far; claiming the damnation of those who don't believe in their tool.
In the end, I do not believe Billy Joel will give me eternal life or the Annie Lennox will save me from myself.
Beauwrath 3 years ago
I am whole heartedly an advocate for escapism...as long as you can still distinguish reality from fiction. It is perfectly healthy, if not fulfilling, to be lost in a book or movie or to get caught in the etheral flow of a song.
It is not healthy, however, to think that these are solutions. After all is said and done, it is only us that heal ourselves. Tools are just the way we allow ourselves to do it.
Beauwrath 3 years ago
I do believe that religion can add false hope as a placebo. I know my grandmother is able to live her life knowing that one day she will be reunited with her partner of 50 years that died years back. It makes life livable for her.
Not that it excuses religion. If we grew up without it I think many more people would be strong enough to continue without it, but while living without loved ones is so terribly difficult, thinking you'll see them again can be comforting.
HonestDiscussioner 3 years ago
I think there can only be one answer to your question:
Yes.
rozeboosje 3 years ago
I think there can only be one question to your answer:
Am I the sexiest YouTuber ever?
theowarner 3 years ago
shameless!
TachiRdiesDirty 3 years ago
I'm not qualified to assess that property.
rozeboosje 3 years ago
Religion is art. I've always believed that the two are pretty much one and the same.
Ever notice how involved certain people get with certain works of art? I have an obsession with Johann Sebastian Bach to the point where I almost treat him like some deity in a proxy religion: I buy all his autobiographies, have his entire works several times over, etc. It's the same thing with Star Trek and Lord of the Rings and so on; people become obsessed with understanding every thread in the tapestry.
DamienPales 3 years ago
Sadly, there is little I can offer to the conversation, as I find myself agreeing with you on all points. The emotional fulfillment or comfort offered by religion is oftentimes just as easily, if not moreso, provided by art, and the line between the two is far grayer than is supposed by most. Religion has inspired art, and art can inspire feelings of closeness with take your pick of god, fellow man, the universe, etc. The only difference I see is that art does not mandate adherence to dogma.
GPNguyen 3 years ago
Fascinating presentation.
massspectrician 3 years ago
love the christmas song at the end.
Lpoolboy 3 years ago
Interesting video, though I'm not fully convinced that religion is entirely incompetent in providing comfort. Christian philosophy, abhorrent though as it is in my eyes, does convey the message that God himself suffered along with mankind and therefor understands suffering and is empathically involved in it.
M4ruta 3 years ago
hey theo,
do you know, what sceen is that at the end and where did they film it?
TachiRdiesDirty 3 years ago
The movie at both the beginning and end are from "Love and Death" by Woody Allen... I don't know where.
theowarner 3 years ago
thanks, it looks like a place I have vague childhood memories of, with the double row of trees.
TachiRdiesDirty 3 years ago
There is no dark side of the moon in the literal sense, though of course there is a side we do not see.
holycatsbatman 3 years ago
'There is no dark side of the moon; matter of fact it's all dark'
Pink floyd :D
Lpoolboy 3 years ago
wow.
rnistuk 3 years ago
great video,
very funny, very true
TachiRdiesDirty 3 years ago
This is without question you're best vid to date Theo. Anything I could add would not do it justice...Bravo.
ComradeAgopian 3 years ago
I think that people find comfort in religion, just as I would find comfort with someone of the same political affiliation. The membership to the community gives religion a certain gene se qua.
So perhaps "God" may not respond, but "God" works through his children. at least that thought is comforting. Although when comparing this to loved ones you would think that it was a gross distortion of the "plenty of fish in the sea" cliche.
Thanks for another great, thought provoking video!
AceOfFayth 3 years ago
fantastic video I really feel you hit the nail on the head by addressing what little respite christianity, and more importantly, fundamentalism can truly offer some people.
TGOW11 3 years ago
Actually, religion might indeed not be as impotent. I believe it can bring comfort to a wounded heart thanx to its community. Most Christians are still human and will be there for one of their own: the religious link playing a factor of a shared identity.
Even fundamentalist may express premade answers to confort a person, these answers being the only thing they can come up with.
Of course, this has nothing to do with the biblical doctrines who are indeed useless except when refusing the loss.
vassalofanubis 3 years ago
I will concede that religion in the proper hands can be good. In this video, I conflated Christianity and Fundamentalism in the interests of brevity and because I think the point comes into sharper relief.
Thanks!
theowarner 3 years ago
It might be worth mentioning the difference between Christianity the religion and Christianity the culture.
The modern cultural Christianity is progressive and secular. I first got to thinking about it when hearing Richard Dawkins saying he was a cultural Christian.
I don't think it gets talked about much because you can take something like cultural Islam and find most of it's glory has passed and the the ugliness of it today relies on Islam the religion to justify.
aManApathetic 3 years ago
(continued) This can give the impression that someone pointing this out must be saying Christianity is culturally superior to Islam and other religions when compared. I don't know if that's the case but I don't think we should choose religion based on pro VS con anyway.
I might even only be talking about Christianity as it is in Britain where the state religion is Church of England, which is the little old lady of religions. So it might not be comparable with other Christian sects.
aManApathetic 3 years ago
Job said it best, "For I know that my redeemer lives, and in the last day I shall rise from the dust, after my skin is restored, and in my flesh I shall see God. Whom I, even I, shall see and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart burns within me for that day." Job 19:25-27
toledoghost 3 years ago
The grimm's said it better. "Gretel, however, ran like lightning to Hansel, opened his little stable, and cried: "Hansel, we are saved! The old witch is dead!"
TachiRdiesDirty 3 years ago 3
Great Vid Theo!
I don't think that truth is ever pleasant, whether submitted by a religion or a friend. The bible certainly is very raw and lacking in sensitivity. In fact, it often enourages people to mourn and grieve (lamentations, ecclesiastes etc..)
I think art is taking a heavy load like your question suggests. Rock music tends to fight 'the man', it would seem that christian fundamentalism is now 'the man'. Sad.
trevorbuvyer 3 years ago
as it is said in the gospels,most people travel the wide road..in other words,most people dont make it to heaven. the last person i would want comforting me with a lost loved one is a christian....especially if that loved one lived his life freely. my only comfort would be with most of the people i love is that christianity is false....
icandodgebullets86 3 years ago
I think the problem is that Christians, particularly fundamentalists, simply do not have means with which to effectively comfort or console someone who is grieving or heartbroken. All they have is 'Put your faith in Jesus'. There are plenty of passages in the Bible that offer the illusion of profundity but provide nothing of any real value.
They simply do not know and rather than admit such, they plug their gaps with God and Jesus.
OminousVoice 3 years ago
As always, brilliantly created and masterfully executed. Message delivered beautifully.
sparrow111260 3 years ago
Wherever the answers to lifes mysteries are I am fairly certain they will not be found in the morass of ramshackle metaphysics, infantile morality and painfully kitsch presentation that is christianity.
WizardJim 3 years ago
I can't put it any better than Pat Condell did when he said that Christianity is a death cult. All the focus is on the next life with no answers for this one. They don't have any answers for this life and they have no interest because for them, existence only starts after we die. If you lived to be a million, billion years old, that less than the blink of an eye in Eternity.
thatgaybloke 3 years ago 3
When, some time ago, an Amish community was devastated when a murderer slaughtered a number of school children, the Amish didn't cry out to God. Instead, they fallowed the example of Jesus and forgave the killer. When Christians suffer terrible loss, they are not to seek revenge, place their faith in Jesus, or even pray. They are to forgive and let go. That is a value few Christians, even the most pious, because it is so counter to human nature.
Search for "Amish School Shooting".
FlowCell 3 years ago
that may be touching yes but forgiving to a school shooter is not always the best option. it a person has already gone berserk and killed people do you really trust him to be in the school again with the same students he was shooting at? forgiveness may be a virtue but only when it prevents injustice
kolzarzor 3 years ago
That remains to be seen. As it is the case, the Law had no choice but to apprehend the perpetrator, so perhaps forgiveness is a luxury they can afford. Although, I would hardly consider a luxury denying yourself the satisfaction of a criminal's execution.
I think the point is, they have given up their burden to hate. And, instead, love their enemy, which is a commandment of Jesus.
The hope is that forgiveness will bring evil people to repentance by giving them a chance to do so.
FlowCell 3 years ago
The point of Theo is that Christians ask how they can assure their salvation instead of how to live their life well.
If a person is a Christian, their is no question about their salvation. The question for them is how they can get other people "saved". And if they are an even more virtuous Christian, they will be charitable to all of those in need. If you want friends, you must be friendly. If you want kindness, be kind, etc.
FlowCell 3 years ago
This Belarusian girl... her eyes, they reminded you of pasta primavera?
urbanelf 3 years ago 3
Since the bible is art, I'm not sure the question can be answered with anything but a "yes". Our modern stories do capture things more accurately for our time.
VonSchnutze 3 years ago
"Is art doing the work that religion should be?" Absolutely.
As Steve Martin's character says in Grand Canyon "That's part of your problem: you haven't seen enough movies. All of life's riddles are answered in the movies."
Minttzz 3 years ago 2
Art has always done the Job religion claims to do, in fact, religion has relied on artistic devices more than anything else to get its points across whether it is the epic poetry that is the foundation of almost every religion to the masterful paintings and scluptures done my michaelangelo(sp?). Even early Chinese civilizations put a great emphasis on poetry and song (excpet for the moists who felt it was a waste of time :p). Take art away form religion and . . you dont really have anything.
illeatyourdog 3 years ago
Spelling nickpick #2 @ 3:53 - sorry.
"pain" not "plain".
Minttzz 3 years ago
Please do not thumbs-down the nitpick without offering a reason why please.
Without nitpicking we wouldn't have put a man on the moon...for some reason.
aManApathetic 3 years ago
its a fault of theos that from time to time the text in his videos contains a blunder.
im thumbs uping in protest.
TachiRdiesDirty 3 years ago
Nitpick - spelling @ 0:56
Lessened (made less) not lessoned (schooled).
Minttzz 3 years ago
This just shows how inadequate religion is. If you look to religion for knowledge, morals or solace you will fail. After all, religion is the thing that preaches that the earth is flat and slavery is acceptable in between garbage filler phrases that order you to put your faith in the supernatural or suffer eternally.
But the reality is that there is no supernatural. There is only reality. The supernatural, by its very nature, cannot exist. So any attempts to define such are pointless.
PheenixTears420 3 years ago 2
How can you be so certain of the nature of something that does not exist?
One of my biggest beefs with many atheists (but not all) is the constant defining of the indefinable with definitions so convenient as to make them easy to disprove.
Atheism should be based on the lack of evidence for that which is beyond reality, not made up definitions that are easy to dismantle. The former argument is strong, but the latter is weak.
FlowCell 3 years ago
the burden of proof falls on the one making the positive assertion. how is one going to show evidence in the negative? it can't be done.
Sajuuk009 3 years ago
If A is only possible with B, and C exists instead of B, then A is impossible.
FlowCell 3 years ago
Religions are not fact. They are fiction. I know they are fiction because they contradict reality, themselves and each other. If a religion is to be factual then it must not contradict anything. It must not have contradictions withnin its "holy" book. And its "holy" book must not contradict another "holy" book.
Religion is just a fan club gone mad. Each fan club has its own rule book, rituals and leader.Theists must understand that IT IS THEIR JOB TO PROVE THEIR POSITIVE CLAIM.
PheenixTears420 3 years ago 3
to PheenixTears420:
right, but in addition to that religions are based on FAITH. That's why it can't be fact, because facts are supported by evidence, which their beliefs isn't (belief is based on pure faith or pseudo-evidence).
bulbulxp 3 years ago
Christianity is a death cult, is it not?
TachiRdiesDirty 3 years ago
Yes it is.
PheenixTears420 3 years ago
Religion produces nothing but a false sense of emotional solace for those who need it.
Rahab111222 3 years ago
As for art, I'm with you there. Music is my main squeeze in that regard, but you have to remember that not all people get anything from art. This is at once the greatest and the damndest thing about humanity; no one is the same.
And in the same way that some propose there is a God gene, perhaps there is an art gene which has a similar function with regards to a person's emotional health and well-being.
Simon's Graceland is great, by the way.
Gnug215 3 years ago
no i dont think that religion can help with greving people at all. god never speaks to people in any real way so nothing will change there and what does it even mean to "put your faith in jesus" so thats no help. it seams that the fundmetlist your talked to only answer to your pain was that your should have loved her less! and jesus is saposed to be all about love!
conrad4ever 3 years ago
"Put your faith in Jesus" is at once a sure fire win and a monumental failure, in that it may help some people "reset" their emotional state, which is often what holds people back - say, the loss of a love keeps one from finding love again, which is what would fix that particular problem.
It's a lot like a placebo if you ask me, which is probably why there are so many adherents of religion.
One probably shouldn't underestimate some people's ability to delude themselves happy.
Gnug215 3 years ago 2
Art often does much much more for people.
JerkyChid 3 years ago
That is an incredible video, masterfully done.
RowanFortuneWood 3 years ago
Nicely done.
Mahagawaga 3 years ago