@Spattay Because if you are courteous and listen to other people, it is more likely they will be courteous and listen to you in kind, which is objectively demonstrable.
@Spattay Ok, I see your point but I disgree because in my experience people are good to each other because they are nice, kind people who want to live in a decent world, not because they are scared into being good by the threat of damnation hanging over them, this implies they would do bad things otherwise. This suggests that being good is an effort & not natural. I never had a particular faith but I've still always had good morals, I just knew it was wrong to hurt people & right to be kind.
Actually qwelton, he didn't say that at all. He said that's what Jesus and his followers were doing...was the Passover meal. Not that similiar meals were not done in other cultures...but THAT is what Jesus and the disciples were doing.
While I can't defend Zeitgeist presentation I can point out that the evidence for Jesus's supposed resurrection, miracles, & origins are sketchy & at second hand at best. I like how Christopher Hitchens put it best.
"Which is more probable, a resurrection? Or that I'm under a misapprehension."
If you believe something because someone said "I saw it I swear." The you may as well put on sign on that says "Provide a witness who claims it's true & I'll believe anything!"
What would Christians do without thier faith? What would this guy do without his faith? Zeitgeist is received by many because religion, Christianity is taught without the encouragment of questioning.....Where are the primary souces of evidence? Why do so many people base their whole morale life on a 'story' that is without sufficiant evidence? Why do people accept so much...but then reject a film like Zeitgeist? Just like many ignore the points made about 9 11.....
too much to comment on. but the best is where he says the idea of a communal meal was established by the passover as if people didn't get together to share a meal (albeit spiritual one) until the passover happened.
You watch though, some atheist will come and say something non-factual and insulting because they have nothing to say that was already attempted in Zeitgeist.
And dcubanod, dont speak so quickly of assumptions you have made. Historians, theologians, and archaeologists alike have come recognized how much evidence there is supporting the Bible, especially the New Testament on which Christianity is built.
As I told SokaDajar in part 2s commentary, the letters written by Paul, which were sent all across the Roman Empire,
through many different nationalities and languages, all line up with each other, telling of such miracles, and warning the early church of their sins. If that's not enough, all the churches he wrote to replicated his writings multiple times and saved them. The gospel letters share the same history, and thus, there have been over 30,000 copies of these letters, dating back to within the first 2 centuries after Jesus death, all matching up with each other
(in different languages and from miles and miles across Middle Eastern countries and European and African Mediterranean countries mind you)telling of Jesus' miracles, including his death and resurrection. That phone game you were talking about doesnt even come close to applying to these artifacts, because of how closely theyre aligned.
had to stop watching after a minute..cause how is he gonna try to de-bunk anything??..with the fucking bible!! that thing has been translated over and over again for how ever kings and rulers thought it should be not to mention old school bible bangers themselves..ever play the game phone? when you whipser to someone and they pass it on, then at the end the original message is completely wrong..now times that by about a couiple thousand years and i give you your GOD-DAMN bible.. =)
first off, this is part 3, so please start watching at part 1.
As for the Bible there has been plenty of transmission but we have very old copies which nullifies your argument. For example, there is a documented piece of the book of John that goes within 29 years of the first copy.
There are 5700 ancient manuscripts of the New Testament, second place for this field is the Ilyiad and it has only 600 manuscripts. The new testament is well accounted for.
wow guy, are you seriously going to use the telephone game argument? If you go by that logic, you ought not to believe anything you hear about any topic, at any point in your lifetime, because everything you hear has been passed on through many other people over a long period of time.
Secondly, there is a very good record of recorded scripture over the last 2000 years or so, as many other people on here have pointed out. Did you listen to the part where he tells you to do your homework?
@Grambo4 The 'phone game' does apply when something that has had such profound impact on shaping civilization, for believers & non, & destroying life on this planet en masse, is based mostly on fiction (with the exception of the odd scripture). I can believe, reasonably, when something is observable & follows laws that are universal.. not 'make believe'. .. that is arguably most of 'everything'.
your comment has nothing to do with the telephone game, other than just saying you still think it's a plausible explanation - which doesn't refute anything I've said. Instead, you've just ranted the usual anti-theist garble, in an effort to sound emotionally convincing. If you want to discuss things rationally and calmly, I'm open to that. Read my point again - consider how much you know is passed through generations of ppl. Who can you trust by such logic?
I perceive that maybe you've been hurt by some religious people in the past, or maybe you've had some other bad experience with Christianity. But I beg you, don't make such condemning comments about something when you haven't tried to understand it for yourself. I see you're angry, and maybe hurting too, but you are being unfair and illogical about this. If you really want to detract from Christianity, research it to at least know what you're talking about. But when you do, you'll be surprised.
Interesting that you thought I 'sound(ed) emotional'. I was responding because your response is emotion-based - condescending & bit patronizing. Even how you addressed dcubanod, "Wow, guy!" Admittedly, he was being emotional & insulting. I have had no real negative experiences really. I'm baptized, I rejected confirmation as a preteen though, if my personal story matters to a reason-based conversation. My position is one based on personal observation, research (I actually love the study..
of theology, and the historical comparisons), and reason. I will not argue against that spiritual beliefs, even in a religious framework don't have 'personal' even community benefits, but again, one just has to look at the history of religion utilized to organize large numbers of people to see that it is a poor tool in this regard. You have not addressed this. Science & resource-management, especially is at moment the best tools I can conceive of in the present day for this purpose.
Well, as we were discussing the "telephone game" argument, I will continue in this line, and ask you again if you really think that's a plausible explanation. There are more preserved copies of Biblical Scripture from throughout the past two millenia, than any other ancient manuscript. Between those copies, the copying errors are extremely minimal, comparatively, and have a percentage of accuracy somewhere in the 90% range (or so I've read). This shows integrity in preserving the story
...of Scripture. From the scripture record, and known history of the early Christian Church, it can be logically argued that the gospels were all written in a time span ranging from as earlier as the 50's AD, to the early 80's AD. This is, roughly, a 20-50 year period after the crucifixion/resurrection of Christ - ~33AD. Furthermore, Paul's letters, which support the teaching and events of the gospels, even quoting teachings of Jesus, are all written by the 50's AD. This is remarkable.
...especially by ancient historical standards of document preservation. So, there exists about a 30 year period for your 'telephone game' theory to take place, regarding the gospels, and perhaps even a shorter period of time for Paul's letters. However, this is all being written down within the same generation of the supposed events making it plausible that the apostles names assigned to the scriptures are the names of the real apostles who wrote the gospels - ppl who lived w/ Jesus...
...And also means that these stories were being circulated in and amoungst communities of people who knew Jesus, and saw him live - stories which were at the public's mercy for being confirmed as authentic, or fabricated. Now, considering the early dates these stories were recorded, being contemporary to Jesus' and the Apostle's generation, and the obvious integrity for preserving the written record of these stories, the "telephone game" theory becomes more and more implausible....
...besides, the telephone game is a bad example, since the whole point of the game is to try and see how messed up the original message can get by the end of the circle; to compare this to the people who loved Jesus, who were observably men of relative integrity, who wanted an accurately preserved record of what Jesus taught and did, we have even less reason to trust the New Testament documents.
I know that was a lot of info (sorry about that), but I hope that it makes sense to you.
Thank you, I like the tone of this discussion much more :) As an individual that has excelled at history through secondary school & university to the present, I can offer this insight. Most of the existence of accepted historical events, persons, etc were learned of from discovered artifact. The Bible and the resulting Christian religion is inverse to this relationship. The challenge seems to be to find artifacts to prove the accuracy of the existence of Christ.
One may argue that the Bible is an artifact itself, but most academics of history do not have this view. One must ask 'why'. The 'why' does parallel the findings of the 'phone game'. The Bible has changed over time. This altering, editing, omitting, adding, etc. brings the contents of the Bible and its historical accuracy into great disrepute. Granted this is not a topic I have studied at length daily, but unless there has been extensive discoveries in recent years I am unaware of....
... then overall, it is my informed position that the Bible will remain for the most part, a work of fiction, although based on the climate of a particular area of the planet and a particular time in human history. It is interesting that no one doubts the existence early Egyptian Pharoahs (who claimed to be Gods), but Christ's existence is still questioned extensively and not because thousands of persons have not sought out proof of His existence. Pharoahs existed thousands of years before J.C.
It is due to the great uncertainty of the existence of Christ and the origins of the Christian religion that Peter Joseph's explanations are also very plausible. The appeal of the Zeitgeist Movement's world view is that it starts in the present & provides answers to the future & history exists as data to utilize to determine what works and what does not. Again, I will emphasize, history does not speak highly of religion as a social design. It does not work & moreover, fails the collective US.
thank you for your replies rdoscan. But one of my concerns is that people keep saying things like the "great uncertainty of the existence of Christ", when the uncertainty has never been conisdered so great-not even close. It is only the last few decades which have given rise to pop-conspiracy-theorists which have fueled these debates. Until recently, virtually all historians (secular, Christian, Atheist) have never thought to question the existence of Jesus, because it was just a historical fact
and I understand your doubtfulness about religion - it is a valid speculation, and up to a point I actually agree with you. However, the efficacy of religion is not the question; it is the existence of Jesus. Moreover, when one reads the teachings of Jesus, one finds a message which (sadly) condemns much of Church history. This suggests that rather than Jesus being a mythical fabrication, he is a figure who was ignored by the institutional Church, to its own peril, and the world's...
...It's my opinion that if the Church (and the world) had turned, and whole-heartedly embraced the teachings of Jesus preserved in Christian Scripture, that the horrors of the Church's past would've been avoided. The crusades, etc., are not the Fault of the Jesus figure, or even Christianity per se, but of hypocritical and power hungry men who abuse good in order to do evil. We see the same pattern throughout Man's history, regardless of the creed it's clothed in at a given time. the problem....
...is the heart of Man; not Jesus Christ or His Church. Indeed it is Jesus Christ whom offers Himself as the cure for the human heart, and calls His Church AWAY from wickedness, and to follow Him, leading a life of sacrifice, love, submission of power, and mercy. If you go back and read the book of Acts, for instance, you will see a picture of harmony in the early Christian Church - that's the Christianity of Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, it's add odds with a lot of later Church history.
@ rdoscan - to your comment "One may argue that the Bible". In my research, I have understood there to be a great accuracy in the preservation of scripture, with minimal errors and alterations, even when allowing for scribal errors common to any ancient manuscript. The fact that those who were writing out scripture and preserving it considered it to be the Word of God unto life is a logical testimony to its accuracy--Though one doesn't have to rely on that. The records speak for themselves.
@Grambo4 .. At this point I will agree. It seems we have converged in our view. The messages attributed to Christ, or 'of Christ' if you like that language better, are Beautiful! It is sad that humanity as a whole has not embodied his virtues. I also, value the message as stated by Mohammad, Krishna, Siddhartha Gautama, shamans, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jr., even Barrack Obama has eloquent, spiritual, inspiring and life-affirming messages.
Intuitively and rationally, I do not understand why focus so much on one individual and then shape one's entire worldview on the one individual so much as to form a rigid, rule-oriented faith. To me that does a disservice to a message that endorses virtues such as modesty, tolerance, open-mindedness, compassion, etc. The most inspirational for me personally in studying religion and spirituality is that the messages parallel so much.
It gives me hope that humanity is innately, and I hope one day cognizantly, a life-oriented species. I guess in this way I call myself a "life-ist" Humans like categories and labels for things! lol. I recently took a huge interest in language development & linguistics. I started reading a book on the origins of English. Coincidently to this conversation I came across this fact. A few years following 1525, the time of William Tyndale, the Bible had been translated & re-translated several times
into English. By the time James I succeeded as monarch of England, Church authorities felt there were too many Bibles around; they produced a new 'official' version. This may not apply if you regularly read an original latin Bible, in latin from the period of Christ, but most around the world do not.
If you look at religion through history you can see the goal. Judaism united hebrews so they could get out of Egypt. Christianity united the "Gentiles" under the same jewish god against the Roman Empire and managed to transform it into a Byzantine Empire. And then Islam came to unify the Arabs. Why? Because they had the Byzantine Empire over their heads. It's not about god. It's all about land, power, and politics. It's a pattern that it's repeating again and again.
There you go making these large sweeping statements again, and without any evidence or facts. You would call me on that, so I think it's unfair for you to just go ahead and do it.
Christianity had a huge mix of Jews and Gentiles it wasn't just about Gentiles. You are very mistaken there. Christianity isn't about taking land or empire building, it's about following God who has revealed Himself to us through the son.
Yep that's what I'm saying. God may be good. Religion though is a completely different thing. There is no God in a text book. God is all around us in the water we drink and in the air we are breathing. And both are poisoned but religion doesn't give a damn about it. Instead they are building fortresses like Vatican and Mount Athos to protect their false cause and leave people at their ignorance by promising false messiahs.
I agree it's not about a textbook, or building fortresses. Jesus was opposed to this system as well. The God of the Bible is one based on relationships with each of us, and offering us a way out of this mess to eternal salvation. Because we can't earn our own salvation, we have too much crap in the way. Jesus took all the blame we deserve himself, and died in our place. If you read the New Testament I think you'll see this :).
This is about Jesus Christ :). He took God's wrath upon himself, the wrath we deserved for our sins. It's the most amazing love in all the world. The main reason I affirm the Old Testament is that Jesus did. And Jesus is alive, you can experience Him for yourself, all you have to do is seek Him honestly and openly. God bless ya =).
I really believe that if people worshiped Nikola Tesla instead of jesus christ, the world would be a much better place. Nobody ever would have a reason to kill thousands in the name of Nikola Tesla. Instead he would have many reasons to help.
If god created people to be his servants then such think as free will would never exist. He wouldn't let me think these words. And don't tell me that it is satans job. Cause god gave satan the free will to disagree with him and then what? He through him out of his "house". People can think of their own. They don't need guidance from fictions, they need science and technology to help them accomplish what that think that god gave them and it is called BRAIN thinks.
We were created to glorify God, and to be in a active relationship with Him. He gave us free will so that could happen. If there's no choice it's not very authentic.
Science supports the idea of God, even Richard Dawkins has quoted that he hoped there will be further advancements in physics. This is because of the overwhelming evidence in things like the fine tuning argument.
why would free will nullify the possibility of humans being God's servants? God giving us free will still makes this possible - we can choose to be His servants. Does that not make sense to you?
Sure:[[Abraham is a man featured in the Book of Genesis, and many other religious, secular and fictional works. According to Jewish tradition (based on the Anno Mundi era), Abraham lived AM 19482123 (1812 BCE to 1637 BCE). Christian traditional dates are about 2000 BCE to 1825 BCE.]] Is there the word "history" or any other derivative of this word in the above text??? Hum.... lets see.. tradition... fiction.... secular....NOP!!! HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!
I could go into archeological evidence for Abraham, but this is all pointless. If you're close minded to God it doesn't matter what I say.
The fact is I follow God because after seeking Him he revealed Himself to me. I have had visions fulfilled, specific ones. I have had friends miraculously healed, a broken jaw for example, completely healed during a prayer service. If you will not be open to God, then I believe you are making a big mistake. Your eternity is worth looking into this....
I am not close minded to God. I am close minded to the bible. There is nothing in this text that differs from the Koran or the talmud or the religionbookyounameit. God is a different think from religion. Church is a different think from religion. I am not an atheist, I am not the lamb of god and definitely not his SERVANT as the Orthodox Christians baptize their little "sheep".
Obviously you haven't read the Koran or the Bible in that case. Jesus was opposed to the religiousity of his day as well. It's about a relatioship with God, and the Bible is very relevant as for example the four gospels are eyewitness accounts by people who knew Jesus, and it distributed among others who knew Jesus, and no one shot it down, for people would have complained if they knew Jesus and then false writings started cropping up, this interestingly enough happened later when fakes came up
So you forgot where the jews were before the pass over? TO EGYPT!!! SLAVES!!! Akhenaten was the first person recorded in history that tries to pass a monotheistic religion worshiping the Sun. Failed. And guess which priest of his manages to continue his beliefs and was thrown out of Egypt... That's right! Moses!!! So you say that christianity has influences from the judaism as it was an evolution of it. But you forget where the judaism started and under which circumstances. Good luck!!
Now you're doing the same thing zeitgeist does, telling people facts, broadening it to encompass what you want, and not providing sources for this reason of thinking...
The fact that this video was posted the same year Zeitgeist came out proves the research was brisk. Wouldn't be surprised if it was biased too. This guy even uses misleading tactics. And text books seldom have complete stories, especially when characters like Horus had an unknown amount of multiple different stories and intermixing roles, as Ra, the Sa(son) of Ra(Sun), and even as the grandson of Ra - and of course Amun, Aten, Horakhty, etc.
I don't think you get it... these theories have been around for over a hundred years, that's where the movie got it from. This guys response is in addition to a series he did that went more in depth that he released even before Zeitgeist came out.
Zeitgeist is not producing any original information. It takes facts like Mithras coming from a rock and generalizes it so much to say born of a virgin.
Seek God and you will find. Seek the info for yourself dude.
Seek God and I will find? There goes any chance of me taking you seriously. Look kid, I don't know how old you are, but God, Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, and the Boogeyman are all just stories parents tell their kids to make them behave. I'm not saying you should stop behaving, but I feel it's my duty to inform you that none of those guys are real, and the sooner kids stop believing in them, the quicker they can mature and grow up into responsible people who can think for themselves.
Why do I say seek God? Because that's the best way to find Him or not find Him. If you don't look and you close your mind against God, of course you won't find Him. Eternity is at stake, so its worth looking into. The person of Jesus was a real person. Non Christian historians wrote about Him. We have documented: eleven disciples changing their lives around and dying for the belief they saw Jesus resurrected. God still works today as well,(ex: friend with broken jaw had it healed while praying)
That never happened. Niether did a talking snake. Niether did the Easter Bunny. And niether did Thor. You're right though - I am closed off to imaginary friends. Because they are IMAGINARY.
Thanks for the messages and the thoughtful discussion. God works today, I cannot deny what I've seen and experienced. God has changed me and so many others.
As I said before Jesus was a real person. It's not like Thor or the easter bunny. This faith is based on real events that happened. tons of people were willing to die for the belief they SAW Jesus resurrected. It's pretty hard to die for something you're pretending to see.
There's tons of proof, but you need to seek to experience God. :)
It's not Christianity's fault that some of the people commenting here aren't able to make any kind of personal connection with God. They're probably really good at lots of other things - like ranting and arguing for example. :)
@friendscanada You cannot territorialize God with your religion. You cannot put God in a box. I have my connection with God and am not a Christian. God does not belong to one religious group or another. God is there for everyone and can be reached through many avenues. Trying to restrict contact with God to one faith is a sin, you cannot contain God in such a way. How dare you even try.
You can't pick and choose what you want Jesus to be, that would be rather fake. We can't discount Jesus miracles just because we wouldn't expect them to happen. The twelve disciples of Jesus all died or were tortured for their absolute belief that Jesus died and then rose again. It would be pretty hard to die for something you were just making up in your mind.
He came up with come interesting "untruths" in the movie Zeitgeist. It's obvious that the movie Zeitgeist has some false facts or stretched facts. Yet, just because you find false fact in the movie it does not somehow validate Christianity. Though, I can find one all encompassing fact about these religions... they all have many contradictions and outright false facts.
Ive checked some facts about egyptian gods, and zeitgeist was pretty much lying. That doesnt mean religion is true, its still a dicease which prevent people from living a real life. You are not going to heaven people, pleasse don´t waste your lives on that shit. Live a little. But don´t just beleive what u read in books or what u see in movies.
I wish you the best as well - seriously - stop by a couple atheist websites - not to be de-converted - but for some conversation... we are nice people.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods, you will understand why i dismiss yours (unknown)
a good quote, ive heard it alot. When you realize the basis for Jesus, and that he was a real person who did really amazing things and was documented by secular historians as well as those closest to him (which is foolish to disreguard as people do with the new testament) you will see He's worth looking into.
the thing i really like about the discussion here is that you've brought out the best in people - actually, that's the ongoing contribution of the human jesus. it just gets cockeyed when an equation with mosaic law/mythology is attempted.
i hope you as well stop by christian websites and see that not all christ-followers are fundamentalist whackos and that you would actually seriously look into the historically proven person named Jesus. not from conspiracy theory videos or books but from historically valid documents called the Gospels, yes they are in the Bible! ;)
one challenge for you..think about whether you are dismissing God or if you're dismissing religion..they are 2 very different things! also, please research the axiomatic impulse on your own...and in closing remember that atheism and theism are both valid worldview's and both ARE faith positions. just because someone holds to a theistic worldview doesn't make them unintelligent or ignorant because there are many ignorant and unintelligent atheists as well..
the age of the earth has nothing to do with my relationship with Jesus..i guess you're assuming i'm a young earth creationist? besides me not being a believer in a young earth this has nothing to do with our conversation..you know what if i get to the end and nothing happens at least i know that i've lived an amazing life and it was even more amazing because of being challenged by the teachings of Jesus..now what about you? what if you get to the "end" and something does occur?
hummm, well if i do happen to meet jeebus or god - I'm sure they'll understand, I prefer to live my life, love my family and raise my kids to be smart and think for themselves, I contribute to my community.... amazingly - all without the help of a imaginary friend.
If having an imaginary friend helps you -- GREAT!! - just don't push your imaginary friend on the rest of the world, or praise those that do !
you know what man..i'm not here to make you believe there is a God. but you do know that to believe there is no God takes just as much faith to believe there is a God. i wish you all the best in your journey and if you ever want to discuss things further i'm open for it..i've looked at the evidence for and against God/Jesus and again i just can't get past how amazing Jesus was and the impact he left on the world..peace.
I don't know how old the Earth is. The Bible says in the creation story that there were days before the Sun was made, so it could be any age at all. I'm fine with billions of years or thousands. THe main point is Jesus, he was real. He's worth looking into. Eternity is at stake, it's worth some time to look into.
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
who's credit should that be to? does that also pertain to reading/watching books/movies like da vinci code or zeitgeist? yes we shouldn't just believe in something because it has been written or said but the overwhelming evidence and historicity of the Bible and Jesus makes it difficult to write the whole thing off..yes there are errors and such but what historical document is perfect? and those "errors" don't shake my trust relationship with Christ.
"But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." WOW that sounds like a lot of Paul's writings in the New Testament..I like it there's great truth in there!
this is some cool stuff you wrote here. Did you write it originally or is it quoted from someone else? please let me know, I'd like to quote it and receive permission if I may...
Not sure what you mean? Bruxy Cavey from the meeting house researched this and is the speaker. You can quote him on the video if you want, and he'd be fine with you using his information. I facebooked him and got permission to post the videos about a year ago and he was fine with that.
it doesn't really matter Where Christianity CAME from - you seam fine with it having roots in Jewish religion but not pagan religion - why is that - seams like a pretty strange thing. to be fine with jewish religion but not pagan religion -- since it's so obvious that chistianity is just a copy of other religions, anyway it's not a debate anyways, it's all fiction
There might be something to the philosophy in Buddhism and Jainism... but that's about it the rest is all lies, we all know it
If you looked into things and actually searched yourself you would see how Judiasm and Christianity are interlinked. Christians believe Jesus is the messiah that the Old Testament Bible fortells, Jews do not. I see very little evidence you are seeking, and lots that you are closing your mind on something you have done no looking into yourself.
Sorry- I went off in the wrong direction there... my point is - What you are saying is irrelevant, since all major religions are not based in reality in fact - they are total fiction. It's really as simple as that - it does not matter if the movie Zeitgeist is right or wrong - picking it apart does noting to prove that Christianity is right. We all know that it is false - even most Christians know this -- but just refuse to accept it.
Man, I know it might be a difficult position to be in where you're in a "Christian Zone" (comment wall on a Christian video) and everyone is ganging up on you, but just for you're benefit, it is important for you to not say things that are entirely unrelated to your argument. For example, "it does not matter if the movie Zeitgeist is right or wrong - picking it apart does noting to prove that Christianity is right". Is this the objective of the video? No its to displace incorrect information.
How about focusing on the, dare I say, IMPORTANT parts of the movie. I don't begrudge anyone their faith, but with this very real(monolithic as Kennedy says) conspiracy we all face, are you gonna be stuck only on the first part of the movie or fight against the very real and very human oppressors?
An intersting point, but if the first part of the movie is so off touch with reality then the last two parts should be taken with a healthy amount of skepticism.
And for me Jesus is far more important than any political things as he is the way to eternal life, and real life right now. He died on the cross to save us from our sins so if we have faith we accept the work he has done, and avoid the fair judgement of God which does not excuse sin.
I certainly don't want to evade what's going on today, but I want to have a sense of importance. Jesus said the most important thing is to love God with all your heart soul and mind. Jesus dying for a sinner like me, that's amazing, and I want to put my trust in him. And the latter sentence is an ad hominem fallacy... (stick it to the man argument), Thanks for the comment.
why should this Jesus die for you...if we as human are constantly making sins...i mean its like taking advantage of it....like one of my friends told me..."oh i can kill anyone i like that isnt christian cuz i can later be unsinned for what i have done"...
That's an excellent question. My following Jesus does not mean I'm a perfect person who doesn't sin, as you know. The way to accept Jesus and the work he has done to substitue for our sins is through faith and repentance. The important thing here is what repentance means.
"holes and contradictions"-please share and let people respond to them. i mean no one can change your mind or make you believe but if you're going to make conclusions like that then you must be very educated on the topic. so please fill us in on your "holes and contradictions". can you have this conversation w/out being demeaning? if you were presented with evidence would you be willing to accept it?
I'm not going to get drawn into a debate on the bible (or any other religious book), that's just not worth the time - if you really care you can find it out for yourself -- there are may people that have already done this leg work. Debates with radical religious type cannot be won -- there arguments are too illogical. Christianity follows the moral zeitgeist like any thing else in human history...it mutates and modifies itself to fit on a daily basis.
wow..so basically no one could ever engage you in a discussion because you are right 100% of the time on any topic when it comes to religion/the bible..your argument sounds a lot like a religious fundamentalist who doesn't like when anyone questions their faith(blind faith that is). as for me i've done the research and throw all the "religious dogma" aside that isn't biblical anyways and i look at Jesus and say this is someone i want to model my life after.
whoa ...don't put words in that I didn't say - I did not say that i was right 100% of the time - I'm a realist - I look at the FACTS and make a decsion based on reality - not a fictional book. i will not debate a religios person - because they try to trump arguments with imaginary things like God ...things that do not exist.
have you not heard of the "god-impulse" or "faith-impulse" that non-christian and christian psychologists/philosophers agree on that all humans are instilled with? look at neanderthal caves and even then they had a sense of the divine and life after death..i guess you've transcended this compared to all others? sorry if i put words in your mouth..also noticed another of your replies..fyi Jesus never used the word "religion" to describe what he was calling people to..
so you say that i put words in your mouth and then you say this? wow man. i'm not saying that at all!!! hahaa i'm saying the god-impulse/faith-impulse has been apart of humanity since the neanderthals not that we should become neanderthal-like...
Man, I know he says lots of generalized, illogical claims; however, it is important to continue to show him the love of Christ in order to displace his argument that all Christians are closed minded and "Debates with radical religious type cannot be won" etc.
you're right though,"Debates with radical religious type cannot be won -- there arguments are too illogical." this is the kind of "religion" that Jesus himself would stand opposed to. plus bruxy isn't picking apart zeitgeist to "prove" christianity, he's bringing light to the untruths and the stretching of facts. but making generalizations like, "we all know it's false" is a very fundamentalist attitude and statement..have you actually listened to these videos in full?
I for one am not standing behind the movie -- I have no stake in it. ...but what it talks about (factual or fictional) is MUCH more plausible than the crap this guy and the bible are trying to spin. If you'd like to model your life after Jesus then go ahead -- but remember to be nice to your slaves. Jesus would like that! - you're unbelievable role modeling yourself on a fictional character.
have you really even looked into the life of Jesus from a biblical point of view or only from what you've heard in conspiracy theory movies and fictional books? the best way to get to know the historical jesus is to study the Gospels, that also is an agreed upon fact from both secular and christian views..i wonder what really lies behind your angst with Christianity...cuz how can you not like or admire the way Jesus lived his life at the very least?
You speak of how buddhism is the most sensible religion to you. There is no historical evidence for buddhism. Christianity has historical evidence. Historians at the time wrote about many people in the new testament. Also 11/12 disciples who witnessed Jesus died for their faith and died believing what they saw. This is very hard to discount. I encourage you to look into things for yourself, go wherever the evidence leads, and be open minded, God bless :).
This means a turning away from the sin/wrong stuff you have done. First acknowledging it, and second making a real effort to turn away.
So in the end we live a life in which we battle sin constantly, but if we give in, and just sin because we think we can get away with it, then our faith is not true, for we have not actually repented. It's the matter of the heart, God really cares about where our hearts are.
ok but here's the thing - the Bible teaches that Jesus at the same time being human is also God. but if you don't believe that Jesus was God's representation to us then it looks like a parent killing his son. but we believe that although Jesus was fully human he was also fully Divine. Jesus also willingly died on the cross, God didn't make Him do it. i hope that at least clarifies some stuff - don't be afraid to ask questions though!
ok but here's the thing - the Bible teaches that Jesus at the same time being human is also God. but if you don't believe that Jesus was God's representation to us then it looks like a parent killing his son. but we believe that although Jesus was fully human he was also fully Divine. Jesus also willingly died on the cross, God didn't make Him do it. i hope that at least clarifies some stuff - don't be afraid to ask questions though!
i have real trouble believeing that intelligent people still have the capacity to believe this iron age crap... open your eyes and mind - and see the truth ...sort through the evidence, just like you say.
Did a degree in the stuff. Also well versed in science. Metaphysics is real, just not physical. The things that we care about most in life are not physical.
The solidness of faith is logical, just not measurable in a beaker. (Research the body of knowledge called "Apologetics"... the logic of God) Neither is love, peace, or happiness... those are the commodities of the Spiritual realm.
Very real things. Sorry for the limited exposure you've had to Christians.
having a degree does not mean your right - and I wouldn't expect you to accept my version of the world, not at all.
Love and happiness can be TOTALLY explained by biology. And I wouldn't say that Buddhism is the answer, also it is not a religion, it gets that title in the western world -- but it's more of a philosophy of life, I would advise you to do some research into it. I am not a Buddhist btw -- just I just think that it has a lot more to offer than ANY of the Abrahamic religions
I started listening to this guy from his website. It really is refreshing to hear a smart, non judgemental christian. Christianity has so much to say, like Dr. Martin Luther King, Ghandi ( who followed Christ's teachings) How did Christianity get so off track?
This guy is LAME! He's saying that Josephus was trying to find parallels but having a hard time? He was saying that they believed "nothing different" from the kind of things pagans believed!
YOu have to be a true believer to be convinced of anything by THIS guy...
Out of curiosity have you researched this point yourself? You've made plenty of personal attacks, but I don't see you backing up your view point, and you're accusing Bruxy here of doing this while he is backing up points. (The guy is Justin the Martyr by the way)
Look at some historical sources for yourself :), And also look at the Justin the Martyr thing in context. I can tell you zeitgeist is not presenting it as it is. If you do the research you will see =), cheers.
YOu really dont see his circular argument? JM was trying to convince other people that his religion was not so different from theirs, so they should accept it too.
Bruxy: "That is SO deceptive!" Yet he turns around and says some doublespeak about JM was explaining to the Romans that there were parallels, but he had a hard time finding any parallels but believe in Jesus because there are parallels. The guy is lying through his teeth to his followers. Totally disingenuous.
@Spattay Because if you are courteous and listen to other people, it is more likely they will be courteous and listen to you in kind, which is objectively demonstrable.
Wafflepudding 5 months ago
@Spattay Ok, I see your point but I disgree because in my experience people are good to each other because they are nice, kind people who want to live in a decent world, not because they are scared into being good by the threat of damnation hanging over them, this implies they would do bad things otherwise. This suggests that being good is an effort & not natural. I never had a particular faith but I've still always had good morals, I just knew it was wrong to hurt people & right to be kind.
ThEmIdNiGhTiNtRuDeR 11 months ago
Actually qwelton, he didn't say that at all. He said that's what Jesus and his followers were doing...was the Passover meal. Not that similiar meals were not done in other cultures...but THAT is what Jesus and the disciples were doing.
TraumaConcept 1 year ago
@TraumaConcept Thanks for your comments :), you make very good points.
Spattay 1 year ago
While I can't defend Zeitgeist presentation I can point out that the evidence for Jesus's supposed resurrection, miracles, & origins are sketchy & at second hand at best. I like how Christopher Hitchens put it best.
"Which is more probable, a resurrection? Or that I'm under a misapprehension."
If you believe something because someone said "I saw it I swear." The you may as well put on sign on that says "Provide a witness who claims it's true & I'll believe anything!"
GalinorGustave 1 year ago
What would Christians do without thier faith? What would this guy do without his faith? Zeitgeist is received by many because religion, Christianity is taught without the encouragment of questioning.....Where are the primary souces of evidence? Why do so many people base their whole morale life on a 'story' that is without sufficiant evidence? Why do people accept so much...but then reject a film like Zeitgeist? Just like many ignore the points made about 9 11.....
THis guy is no authority.
sheppeyscum 1 year ago
too much to comment on. but the best is where he says the idea of a communal meal was established by the passover as if people didn't get together to share a meal (albeit spiritual one) until the passover happened.
qwelton 1 year ago
Zeitgeist got it's ass kicked in these videos!
You watch though, some atheist will come and say something non-factual and insulting because they have nothing to say that was already attempted in Zeitgeist.
elvisfan22 2 years ago
yeah, that last comment was to dcubanod
Grambo4 2 years ago
this is why i <3 youtube. ppl from all over the world can have (semi)civilized discussions about anything they want.
and Grambo4, i wish i knew what you were responding to, but i cant figure it out. could you enlighten me?
and youre exactly right about free will. its a marvelous instrument God created in us, and im thankful for it
singerhopeful311 2 years ago
so why do both romans and christians believe in crazy stuff?
venom55520 2 years ago
GNARshmallow, that didnt even make sense.
And dcubanod, dont speak so quickly of assumptions you have made. Historians, theologians, and archaeologists alike have come recognized how much evidence there is supporting the Bible, especially the New Testament on which Christianity is built.
As I told SokaDajar in part 2s commentary, the letters written by Paul, which were sent all across the Roman Empire,
singerhopeful311 3 years ago
through many different nationalities and languages, all line up with each other, telling of such miracles, and warning the early church of their sins. If that's not enough, all the churches he wrote to replicated his writings multiple times and saved them. The gospel letters share the same history, and thus, there have been over 30,000 copies of these letters, dating back to within the first 2 centuries after Jesus death, all matching up with each other
singerhopeful311 3 years ago
(in different languages and from miles and miles across Middle Eastern countries and European and African Mediterranean countries mind you)telling of Jesus' miracles, including his death and resurrection. That phone game you were talking about doesnt even come close to applying to these artifacts, because of how closely theyre aligned.
singerhopeful311 3 years ago
if this guy was REALLY saved, jesus would cut his hair for him
GNARshmallow 3 years ago
had to stop watching after a minute..cause how is he gonna try to de-bunk anything??..with the fucking bible!! that thing has been translated over and over again for how ever kings and rulers thought it should be not to mention old school bible bangers themselves..ever play the game phone? when you whipser to someone and they pass it on, then at the end the original message is completely wrong..now times that by about a couiple thousand years and i give you your GOD-DAMN bible.. =)
dcubanod 3 years ago
first off, this is part 3, so please start watching at part 1.
As for the Bible there has been plenty of transmission but we have very old copies which nullifies your argument. For example, there is a documented piece of the book of John that goes within 29 years of the first copy.
There are 5700 ancient manuscripts of the New Testament, second place for this field is the Ilyiad and it has only 600 manuscripts. The new testament is well accounted for.
Spattay 3 years ago
wow guy, are you seriously going to use the telephone game argument? If you go by that logic, you ought not to believe anything you hear about any topic, at any point in your lifetime, because everything you hear has been passed on through many other people over a long period of time.
Secondly, there is a very good record of recorded scripture over the last 2000 years or so, as many other people on here have pointed out. Did you listen to the part where he tells you to do your homework?
Grambo4 2 years ago
@Grambo4 The 'phone game' does apply when something that has had such profound impact on shaping civilization, for believers & non, & destroying life on this planet en masse, is based mostly on fiction (with the exception of the odd scripture). I can believe, reasonably, when something is observable & follows laws that are universal.. not 'make believe'. .. that is arguably most of 'everything'.
rdoscan 2 years ago
@rdoscan,
your comment has nothing to do with the telephone game, other than just saying you still think it's a plausible explanation - which doesn't refute anything I've said. Instead, you've just ranted the usual anti-theist garble, in an effort to sound emotionally convincing. If you want to discuss things rationally and calmly, I'm open to that. Read my point again - consider how much you know is passed through generations of ppl. Who can you trust by such logic?
Grambo4 2 years ago
I perceive that maybe you've been hurt by some religious people in the past, or maybe you've had some other bad experience with Christianity. But I beg you, don't make such condemning comments about something when you haven't tried to understand it for yourself. I see you're angry, and maybe hurting too, but you are being unfair and illogical about this. If you really want to detract from Christianity, research it to at least know what you're talking about. But when you do, you'll be surprised.
Grambo4 2 years ago
Interesting that you thought I 'sound(ed) emotional'. I was responding because your response is emotion-based - condescending & bit patronizing. Even how you addressed dcubanod, "Wow, guy!" Admittedly, he was being emotional & insulting. I have had no real negative experiences really. I'm baptized, I rejected confirmation as a preteen though, if my personal story matters to a reason-based conversation. My position is one based on personal observation, research (I actually love the study..
rdoscan 2 years ago
of theology, and the historical comparisons), and reason. I will not argue against that spiritual beliefs, even in a religious framework don't have 'personal' even community benefits, but again, one just has to look at the history of religion utilized to organize large numbers of people to see that it is a poor tool in this regard. You have not addressed this. Science & resource-management, especially is at moment the best tools I can conceive of in the present day for this purpose.
rdoscan 2 years ago
@rdoscan
Well, as we were discussing the "telephone game" argument, I will continue in this line, and ask you again if you really think that's a plausible explanation. There are more preserved copies of Biblical Scripture from throughout the past two millenia, than any other ancient manuscript. Between those copies, the copying errors are extremely minimal, comparatively, and have a percentage of accuracy somewhere in the 90% range (or so I've read). This shows integrity in preserving the story
Grambo4 2 years ago
@rdoscan
...of Scripture. From the scripture record, and known history of the early Christian Church, it can be logically argued that the gospels were all written in a time span ranging from as earlier as the 50's AD, to the early 80's AD. This is, roughly, a 20-50 year period after the crucifixion/resurrection of Christ - ~33AD. Furthermore, Paul's letters, which support the teaching and events of the gospels, even quoting teachings of Jesus, are all written by the 50's AD. This is remarkable.
Grambo4 2 years ago
@rdoscan
...especially by ancient historical standards of document preservation. So, there exists about a 30 year period for your 'telephone game' theory to take place, regarding the gospels, and perhaps even a shorter period of time for Paul's letters. However, this is all being written down within the same generation of the supposed events making it plausible that the apostles names assigned to the scriptures are the names of the real apostles who wrote the gospels - ppl who lived w/ Jesus...
Grambo4 2 years ago
@rdoscan
...And also means that these stories were being circulated in and amoungst communities of people who knew Jesus, and saw him live - stories which were at the public's mercy for being confirmed as authentic, or fabricated. Now, considering the early dates these stories were recorded, being contemporary to Jesus' and the Apostle's generation, and the obvious integrity for preserving the written record of these stories, the "telephone game" theory becomes more and more implausible....
Grambo4 2 years ago
@rdoscan
...besides, the telephone game is a bad example, since the whole point of the game is to try and see how messed up the original message can get by the end of the circle; to compare this to the people who loved Jesus, who were observably men of relative integrity, who wanted an accurately preserved record of what Jesus taught and did, we have even less reason to trust the New Testament documents.
I know that was a lot of info (sorry about that), but I hope that it makes sense to you.
Grambo4 2 years ago
@Grambo4 - Typo: I meant we have even less reason to DIS-trust the New Testament Documents, lol.
Grambo4 2 years ago
Thank you, I like the tone of this discussion much more :) As an individual that has excelled at history through secondary school & university to the present, I can offer this insight. Most of the existence of accepted historical events, persons, etc were learned of from discovered artifact. The Bible and the resulting Christian religion is inverse to this relationship. The challenge seems to be to find artifacts to prove the accuracy of the existence of Christ.
rdoscan 2 years ago
One may argue that the Bible is an artifact itself, but most academics of history do not have this view. One must ask 'why'. The 'why' does parallel the findings of the 'phone game'. The Bible has changed over time. This altering, editing, omitting, adding, etc. brings the contents of the Bible and its historical accuracy into great disrepute. Granted this is not a topic I have studied at length daily, but unless there has been extensive discoveries in recent years I am unaware of....
rdoscan 2 years ago
... then overall, it is my informed position that the Bible will remain for the most part, a work of fiction, although based on the climate of a particular area of the planet and a particular time in human history. It is interesting that no one doubts the existence early Egyptian Pharoahs (who claimed to be Gods), but Christ's existence is still questioned extensively and not because thousands of persons have not sought out proof of His existence. Pharoahs existed thousands of years before J.C.
rdoscan 2 years ago
It is due to the great uncertainty of the existence of Christ and the origins of the Christian religion that Peter Joseph's explanations are also very plausible. The appeal of the Zeitgeist Movement's world view is that it starts in the present & provides answers to the future & history exists as data to utilize to determine what works and what does not. Again, I will emphasize, history does not speak highly of religion as a social design. It does not work & moreover, fails the collective US.
rdoscan 2 years ago
thank you for your replies rdoscan. But one of my concerns is that people keep saying things like the "great uncertainty of the existence of Christ", when the uncertainty has never been conisdered so great-not even close. It is only the last few decades which have given rise to pop-conspiracy-theorists which have fueled these debates. Until recently, virtually all historians (secular, Christian, Atheist) have never thought to question the existence of Jesus, because it was just a historical fact
Grambo4 2 years ago
and I understand your doubtfulness about religion - it is a valid speculation, and up to a point I actually agree with you. However, the efficacy of religion is not the question; it is the existence of Jesus. Moreover, when one reads the teachings of Jesus, one finds a message which (sadly) condemns much of Church history. This suggests that rather than Jesus being a mythical fabrication, he is a figure who was ignored by the institutional Church, to its own peril, and the world's...
Grambo4 2 years ago
...It's my opinion that if the Church (and the world) had turned, and whole-heartedly embraced the teachings of Jesus preserved in Christian Scripture, that the horrors of the Church's past would've been avoided. The crusades, etc., are not the Fault of the Jesus figure, or even Christianity per se, but of hypocritical and power hungry men who abuse good in order to do evil. We see the same pattern throughout Man's history, regardless of the creed it's clothed in at a given time. the problem....
Grambo4 2 years ago
...is the heart of Man; not Jesus Christ or His Church. Indeed it is Jesus Christ whom offers Himself as the cure for the human heart, and calls His Church AWAY from wickedness, and to follow Him, leading a life of sacrifice, love, submission of power, and mercy. If you go back and read the book of Acts, for instance, you will see a picture of harmony in the early Christian Church - that's the Christianity of Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, it's add odds with a lot of later Church history.
Grambo4 2 years ago
@ rdoscan - to your comment "One may argue that the Bible". In my research, I have understood there to be a great accuracy in the preservation of scripture, with minimal errors and alterations, even when allowing for scribal errors common to any ancient manuscript. The fact that those who were writing out scripture and preserving it considered it to be the Word of God unto life is a logical testimony to its accuracy--Though one doesn't have to rely on that. The records speak for themselves.
Grambo4 2 years ago
@Grambo4 .. At this point I will agree. It seems we have converged in our view. The messages attributed to Christ, or 'of Christ' if you like that language better, are Beautiful! It is sad that humanity as a whole has not embodied his virtues. I also, value the message as stated by Mohammad, Krishna, Siddhartha Gautama, shamans, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jr., even Barrack Obama has eloquent, spiritual, inspiring and life-affirming messages.
rdoscan 2 years ago
Intuitively and rationally, I do not understand why focus so much on one individual and then shape one's entire worldview on the one individual so much as to form a rigid, rule-oriented faith. To me that does a disservice to a message that endorses virtues such as modesty, tolerance, open-mindedness, compassion, etc. The most inspirational for me personally in studying religion and spirituality is that the messages parallel so much.
rdoscan 2 years ago
It gives me hope that humanity is innately, and I hope one day cognizantly, a life-oriented species. I guess in this way I call myself a "life-ist" Humans like categories and labels for things! lol. I recently took a huge interest in language development & linguistics. I started reading a book on the origins of English. Coincidently to this conversation I came across this fact. A few years following 1525, the time of William Tyndale, the Bible had been translated & re-translated several times
rdoscan 2 years ago
into English. By the time James I succeeded as monarch of England, Church authorities felt there were too many Bibles around; they produced a new 'official' version. This may not apply if you regularly read an original latin Bible, in latin from the period of Christ, but most around the world do not.
rdoscan 2 years ago
Still waiting for archeological evidence.
SokaDajar 3 years ago
If you look at religion through history you can see the goal. Judaism united hebrews so they could get out of Egypt. Christianity united the "Gentiles" under the same jewish god against the Roman Empire and managed to transform it into a Byzantine Empire. And then Islam came to unify the Arabs. Why? Because they had the Byzantine Empire over their heads. It's not about god. It's all about land, power, and politics. It's a pattern that it's repeating again and again.
SokaDajar 3 years ago
There you go making these large sweeping statements again, and without any evidence or facts. You would call me on that, so I think it's unfair for you to just go ahead and do it.
Christianity had a huge mix of Jews and Gentiles it wasn't just about Gentiles. You are very mistaken there. Christianity isn't about taking land or empire building, it's about following God who has revealed Himself to us through the son.
Spattay 3 years ago
Yep that's what I'm saying. God may be good. Religion though is a completely different thing. There is no God in a text book. God is all around us in the water we drink and in the air we are breathing. And both are poisoned but religion doesn't give a damn about it. Instead they are building fortresses like Vatican and Mount Athos to protect their false cause and leave people at their ignorance by promising false messiahs.
SokaDajar 3 years ago 4
I agree it's not about a textbook, or building fortresses. Jesus was opposed to this system as well. The God of the Bible is one based on relationships with each of us, and offering us a way out of this mess to eternal salvation. Because we can't earn our own salvation, we have too much crap in the way. Jesus took all the blame we deserve himself, and died in our place. If you read the New Testament I think you'll see this :).
Spattay 3 years ago
And pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease give me some archeological evidence for Abraham....
SokaDajar 3 years ago
This is about Jesus Christ :). He took God's wrath upon himself, the wrath we deserved for our sins. It's the most amazing love in all the world. The main reason I affirm the Old Testament is that Jesus did. And Jesus is alive, you can experience Him for yourself, all you have to do is seek Him honestly and openly. God bless ya =).
Spattay 3 years ago
I really believe that if people worshiped Nikola Tesla instead of jesus christ, the world would be a much better place. Nobody ever would have a reason to kill thousands in the name of Nikola Tesla. Instead he would have many reasons to help.
SokaDajar 3 years ago
No true followers would kill in Jesus name, he called people away from war, "those that live by the sword will die by the sword".
You can't judge Christianity by Christians, because they may not even be Christians. You can only judge Christianity by Christ.
Spattay 3 years ago
If god created people to be his servants then such think as free will would never exist. He wouldn't let me think these words. And don't tell me that it is satans job. Cause god gave satan the free will to disagree with him and then what? He through him out of his "house". People can think of their own. They don't need guidance from fictions, they need science and technology to help them accomplish what that think that god gave them and it is called BRAIN thinks.
SokaDajar 3 years ago
We were created to glorify God, and to be in a active relationship with Him. He gave us free will so that could happen. If there's no choice it's not very authentic.
Science supports the idea of God, even Richard Dawkins has quoted that he hoped there will be further advancements in physics. This is because of the overwhelming evidence in things like the fine tuning argument.
Cool questions, keep seeking. God is good =).
Spattay 3 years ago
why would free will nullify the possibility of humans being God's servants? God giving us free will still makes this possible - we can choose to be His servants. Does that not make sense to you?
Grambo4 2 years ago
Could you name some of them?
SokaDajar 3 years ago
Some people before Moses? Sure, Abraham is traditionally listed from 2000 BC to 1825 BC, that's 700 years before Akhenaten.
Spattay 3 years ago
Sure:[[Abraham is a man featured in the Book of Genesis, and many other religious, secular and fictional works. According to Jewish tradition (based on the Anno Mundi era), Abraham lived AM 19482123 (1812 BCE to 1637 BCE). Christian traditional dates are about 2000 BCE to 1825 BCE.]] Is there the word "history" or any other derivative of this word in the above text??? Hum.... lets see.. tradition... fiction.... secular....NOP!!! HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!
SokaDajar 3 years ago
I could go into archeological evidence for Abraham, but this is all pointless. If you're close minded to God it doesn't matter what I say.
The fact is I follow God because after seeking Him he revealed Himself to me. I have had visions fulfilled, specific ones. I have had friends miraculously healed, a broken jaw for example, completely healed during a prayer service. If you will not be open to God, then I believe you are making a big mistake. Your eternity is worth looking into this....
Spattay 3 years ago
I am not close minded to God. I am close minded to the bible. There is nothing in this text that differs from the Koran or the talmud or the religionbookyounameit. God is a different think from religion. Church is a different think from religion. I am not an atheist, I am not the lamb of god and definitely not his SERVANT as the Orthodox Christians baptize their little "sheep".
SokaDajar 3 years ago
Obviously you haven't read the Koran or the Bible in that case. Jesus was opposed to the religiousity of his day as well. It's about a relatioship with God, and the Bible is very relevant as for example the four gospels are eyewitness accounts by people who knew Jesus, and it distributed among others who knew Jesus, and no one shot it down, for people would have complained if they knew Jesus and then false writings started cropping up, this interestingly enough happened later when fakes came up
Spattay 3 years ago
No sources?? Just google Akhenaten and see what happens. I've done my research one this guy and not only from the net.
HE HAS A GRAVE... WITH CARVINGS ON IT....
unlike someone else.....
SokaDajar 3 years ago
I'm referring to how you can claim judaism came from that. You're just inserting your own belief of this without a source or evidence.
The fact is Judaism didn't start with Moses, there are people before him...
Spattay 3 years ago
So you forgot where the jews were before the pass over? TO EGYPT!!! SLAVES!!! Akhenaten was the first person recorded in history that tries to pass a monotheistic religion worshiping the Sun. Failed. And guess which priest of his manages to continue his beliefs and was thrown out of Egypt... That's right! Moses!!! So you say that christianity has influences from the judaism as it was an evolution of it. But you forget where the judaism started and under which circumstances. Good luck!!
SokaDajar 3 years ago
Now you're doing the same thing zeitgeist does, telling people facts, broadening it to encompass what you want, and not providing sources for this reason of thinking...
Spattay 3 years ago
The fact that this video was posted the same year Zeitgeist came out proves the research was brisk. Wouldn't be surprised if it was biased too. This guy even uses misleading tactics. And text books seldom have complete stories, especially when characters like Horus had an unknown amount of multiple different stories and intermixing roles, as Ra, the Sa(son) of Ra(Sun), and even as the grandson of Ra - and of course Amun, Aten, Horakhty, etc.
DustWorm1985 3 years ago
I don't think you get it... these theories have been around for over a hundred years, that's where the movie got it from. This guys response is in addition to a series he did that went more in depth that he released even before Zeitgeist came out.
Zeitgeist is not producing any original information. It takes facts like Mithras coming from a rock and generalizes it so much to say born of a virgin.
Seek God and you will find. Seek the info for yourself dude.
Spattay 3 years ago
Seek God and I will find? There goes any chance of me taking you seriously. Look kid, I don't know how old you are, but God, Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, and the Boogeyman are all just stories parents tell their kids to make them behave. I'm not saying you should stop behaving, but I feel it's my duty to inform you that none of those guys are real, and the sooner kids stop believing in them, the quicker they can mature and grow up into responsible people who can think for themselves.
DustWorm1985 3 years ago
Why do I say seek God? Because that's the best way to find Him or not find Him. If you don't look and you close your mind against God, of course you won't find Him. Eternity is at stake, so its worth looking into. The person of Jesus was a real person. Non Christian historians wrote about Him. We have documented: eleven disciples changing their lives around and dying for the belief they saw Jesus resurrected. God still works today as well,(ex: friend with broken jaw had it healed while praying)
Spattay 3 years ago
That never happened. Niether did a talking snake. Niether did the Easter Bunny. And niether did Thor. You're right though - I am closed off to imaginary friends. Because they are IMAGINARY.
DustWorm1985 3 years ago
Thanks for the messages and the thoughtful discussion. God works today, I cannot deny what I've seen and experienced. God has changed me and so many others.
As I said before Jesus was a real person. It's not like Thor or the easter bunny. This faith is based on real events that happened. tons of people were willing to die for the belief they SAW Jesus resurrected. It's pretty hard to die for something you're pretending to see.
There's tons of proof, but you need to seek to experience God. :)
Spattay 3 years ago
This is ridiculous (broken jaw). It upsets me to read.
joepirrelly 3 years ago
He seemed to have forgotten to talk about the astrological evidence, and the many other parrallels between christianity and the eygptian religion.
BrooklynNY1992 3 years ago
It's not Christianity's fault that some of the people commenting here aren't able to make any kind of personal connection with God. They're probably really good at lots of other things - like ranting and arguing for example. :)
friendscanada 3 years ago 4
this is totally paradox and infraction of the 1st and the 2nd commandment.
Because you don't care about God's claim to be unavailable.
pwnz0rz0r 3 years ago
@friendscanada You cannot territorialize God with your religion. You cannot put God in a box. I have my connection with God and am not a Christian. God does not belong to one religious group or another. God is there for everyone and can be reached through many avenues. Trying to restrict contact with God to one faith is a sin, you cannot contain God in such a way. How dare you even try.
ThEmIdNiGhTiNtRuDeR 11 months ago
what about the astrological evidence!
QymLym 3 years ago
You can't pick and choose what you want Jesus to be, that would be rather fake. We can't discount Jesus miracles just because we wouldn't expect them to happen. The twelve disciples of Jesus all died or were tortured for their absolute belief that Jesus died and then rose again. It would be pretty hard to die for something you were just making up in your mind.
Spattay 3 years ago
He came up with come interesting "untruths" in the movie Zeitgeist. It's obvious that the movie Zeitgeist has some false facts or stretched facts. Yet, just because you find false fact in the movie it does not somehow validate Christianity. Though, I can find one all encompassing fact about these religions... they all have many contradictions and outright false facts.
f1207 3 years ago
Ive checked some facts about egyptian gods, and zeitgeist was pretty much lying. That doesnt mean religion is true, its still a dicease which prevent people from living a real life. You are not going to heaven people, pleasse don´t waste your lives on that shit. Live a little. But don´t just beleive what u read in books or what u see in movies.
danielpann 3 years ago 2
which leaves arheological artefacts?
kaitimebb 3 years ago
I wish you the best as well - seriously - stop by a couple atheist websites - not to be de-converted - but for some conversation... we are nice people.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods, you will understand why i dismiss yours (unknown)
Cheers,
:)
shanemacc 3 years ago
a good quote, ive heard it alot. When you realize the basis for Jesus, and that he was a real person who did really amazing things and was documented by secular historians as well as those closest to him (which is foolish to disreguard as people do with the new testament) you will see He's worth looking into.
Spattay 3 years ago
the thing i really like about the discussion here is that you've brought out the best in people - actually, that's the ongoing contribution of the human jesus. it just gets cockeyed when an equation with mosaic law/mythology is attempted.
kaitimebb 3 years ago
i hope you as well stop by christian websites and see that not all christ-followers are fundamentalist whackos and that you would actually seriously look into the historically proven person named Jesus. not from conspiracy theory videos or books but from historically valid documents called the Gospels, yes they are in the Bible! ;)
revolutionconway 3 years ago
one challenge for you..think about whether you are dismissing God or if you're dismissing religion..they are 2 very different things! also, please research the axiomatic impulse on your own...and in closing remember that atheism and theism are both valid worldview's and both ARE faith positions. just because someone holds to a theistic worldview doesn't make them unintelligent or ignorant because there are many ignorant and unintelligent atheists as well..
revolutionconway 3 years ago
i can easily tell if your hypocritical or not ...with one simple question.
"how old is planet earth?" (roughly) or if you like "how old do you believe planet earth to be"?
shanemacc 3 years ago
the age of the earth has nothing to do with my relationship with Jesus..i guess you're assuming i'm a young earth creationist? besides me not being a believer in a young earth this has nothing to do with our conversation..you know what if i get to the end and nothing happens at least i know that i've lived an amazing life and it was even more amazing because of being challenged by the teachings of Jesus..now what about you? what if you get to the "end" and something does occur?
revolutionconway 3 years ago
hummm, well if i do happen to meet jeebus or god - I'm sure they'll understand, I prefer to live my life, love my family and raise my kids to be smart and think for themselves, I contribute to my community.... amazingly - all without the help of a imaginary friend.
If having an imaginary friend helps you -- GREAT!! - just don't push your imaginary friend on the rest of the world, or praise those that do !
shanemacc 3 years ago
you know what man..i'm not here to make you believe there is a God. but you do know that to believe there is no God takes just as much faith to believe there is a God. i wish you all the best in your journey and if you ever want to discuss things further i'm open for it..i've looked at the evidence for and against God/Jesus and again i just can't get past how amazing Jesus was and the impact he left on the world..peace.
revolutionconway 3 years ago
I don't know how old the Earth is. The Bible says in the creation story that there were days before the Sun was made, so it could be any age at all. I'm fine with billions of years or thousands. THe main point is Jesus, he was real. He's worth looking into. Eternity is at stake, it's worth some time to look into.
Spattay 3 years ago
all i can say to people like you - is this ...
"we will all find out someday - then the debate can end" the day you die and nothing happens ...
shanemacc 3 years ago
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
shanemacc 3 years ago
who's credit should that be to? does that also pertain to reading/watching books/movies like da vinci code or zeitgeist? yes we shouldn't just believe in something because it has been written or said but the overwhelming evidence and historicity of the Bible and Jesus makes it difficult to write the whole thing off..yes there are errors and such but what historical document is perfect? and those "errors" don't shake my trust relationship with Christ.
revolutionconway 3 years ago
"But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." WOW that sounds like a lot of Paul's writings in the New Testament..I like it there's great truth in there!
revolutionconway 3 years ago
this is some cool stuff you wrote here. Did you write it originally or is it quoted from someone else? please let me know, I'd like to quote it and receive permission if I may...
DarylRummens 3 years ago
Not sure what you mean? Bruxy Cavey from the meeting house researched this and is the speaker. You can quote him on the video if you want, and he'd be fine with you using his information. I facebooked him and got permission to post the videos about a year ago and he was fine with that.
Spattay 3 years ago
it doesn't really matter Where Christianity CAME from - you seam fine with it having roots in Jewish religion but not pagan religion - why is that - seams like a pretty strange thing. to be fine with jewish religion but not pagan religion -- since it's so obvious that chistianity is just a copy of other religions, anyway it's not a debate anyways, it's all fiction
There might be something to the philosophy in Buddhism and Jainism... but that's about it the rest is all lies, we all know it
shanemacc 3 years ago
If you looked into things and actually searched yourself you would see how Judiasm and Christianity are interlinked. Christians believe Jesus is the messiah that the Old Testament Bible fortells, Jews do not. I see very little evidence you are seeking, and lots that you are closing your mind on something you have done no looking into yourself.
Spattay 3 years ago
Sorry- I went off in the wrong direction there... my point is - What you are saying is irrelevant, since all major religions are not based in reality in fact - they are total fiction. It's really as simple as that - it does not matter if the movie Zeitgeist is right or wrong - picking it apart does noting to prove that Christianity is right. We all know that it is false - even most Christians know this -- but just refuse to accept it.
shanemacc 3 years ago
Man, I know it might be a difficult position to be in where you're in a "Christian Zone" (comment wall on a Christian video) and everyone is ganging up on you, but just for you're benefit, it is important for you to not say things that are entirely unrelated to your argument. For example, "it does not matter if the movie Zeitgeist is right or wrong - picking it apart does noting to prove that Christianity is right". Is this the objective of the video? No its to displace incorrect information.
Tommytwostep 3 years ago
shanemacc,
"obvious that Christianity is a copy of other religions"?
Did you watch all 3 parts of Bruxy's response?
mangobrad 3 years ago
How about focusing on the, dare I say, IMPORTANT parts of the movie. I don't begrudge anyone their faith, but with this very real(monolithic as Kennedy says) conspiracy we all face, are you gonna be stuck only on the first part of the movie or fight against the very real and very human oppressors?
metalways 4 years ago
An intersting point, but if the first part of the movie is so off touch with reality then the last two parts should be taken with a healthy amount of skepticism.
And for me Jesus is far more important than any political things as he is the way to eternal life, and real life right now. He died on the cross to save us from our sins so if we have faith we accept the work he has done, and avoid the fair judgement of God which does not excuse sin.
Spattay 4 years ago
haha how lame...thats what my uncle would say
and i see it as an excuse to evade what is going around you today
and he's a bum too!...maybe its just him ...
Punkdownthestreet 4 years ago
I certainly don't want to evade what's going on today, but I want to have a sense of importance. Jesus said the most important thing is to love God with all your heart soul and mind. Jesus dying for a sinner like me, that's amazing, and I want to put my trust in him. And the latter sentence is an ad hominem fallacy... (stick it to the man argument), Thanks for the comment.
Spattay 4 years ago
why should this Jesus die for you...if we as human are constantly making sins...i mean its like taking advantage of it....like one of my friends told me..."oh i can kill anyone i like that isnt christian cuz i can later be unsinned for what i have done"...
Punkdownthestreet 4 years ago
That's an excellent question. My following Jesus does not mean I'm a perfect person who doesn't sin, as you know. The way to accept Jesus and the work he has done to substitue for our sins is through faith and repentance. The important thing here is what repentance means.
Spattay 4 years ago
that's a total load of garbage ...the chistian religion (as well as every other major "god" based religion) is so full of holes and contradictions.
shanemacc 3 years ago
"holes and contradictions"-please share and let people respond to them. i mean no one can change your mind or make you believe but if you're going to make conclusions like that then you must be very educated on the topic. so please fill us in on your "holes and contradictions". can you have this conversation w/out being demeaning? if you were presented with evidence would you be willing to accept it?
revolutionconway 3 years ago
I'm not going to get drawn into a debate on the bible (or any other religious book), that's just not worth the time - if you really care you can find it out for yourself -- there are may people that have already done this leg work. Debates with radical religious type cannot be won -- there arguments are too illogical. Christianity follows the moral zeitgeist like any thing else in human history...it mutates and modifies itself to fit on a daily basis.
shanemacc 3 years ago
wow..so basically no one could ever engage you in a discussion because you are right 100% of the time on any topic when it comes to religion/the bible..your argument sounds a lot like a religious fundamentalist who doesn't like when anyone questions their faith(blind faith that is). as for me i've done the research and throw all the "religious dogma" aside that isn't biblical anyways and i look at Jesus and say this is someone i want to model my life after.
revolutionconway 3 years ago
whoa ...don't put words in that I didn't say - I did not say that i was right 100% of the time - I'm a realist - I look at the FACTS and make a decsion based on reality - not a fictional book. i will not debate a religios person - because they try to trump arguments with imaginary things like God ...things that do not exist.
shanemacc 3 years ago
have you not heard of the "god-impulse" or "faith-impulse" that non-christian and christian psychologists/philosophers agree on that all humans are instilled with? look at neanderthal caves and even then they had a sense of the divine and life after death..i guess you've transcended this compared to all others? sorry if i put words in your mouth..also noticed another of your replies..fyi Jesus never used the word "religion" to describe what he was calling people to..
revolutionconway 3 years ago
are you really saying that Neanderthal Man is where your going to look for verification of your beliefs ? Evolve dude!
shanemacc 3 years ago
so you say that i put words in your mouth and then you say this? wow man. i'm not saying that at all!!! hahaa i'm saying the god-impulse/faith-impulse has been apart of humanity since the neanderthals not that we should become neanderthal-like...
revolutionconway 3 years ago
Man, I know he says lots of generalized, illogical claims; however, it is important to continue to show him the love of Christ in order to displace his argument that all Christians are closed minded and "Debates with radical religious type cannot be won" etc.
You make good points... Love you! Keep it up!
Cheers
Tommytwostep 3 years ago
you're right though,"Debates with radical religious type cannot be won -- there arguments are too illogical." this is the kind of "religion" that Jesus himself would stand opposed to. plus bruxy isn't picking apart zeitgeist to "prove" christianity, he's bringing light to the untruths and the stretching of facts. but making generalizations like, "we all know it's false" is a very fundamentalist attitude and statement..have you actually listened to these videos in full?
revolutionconway 3 years ago
I for one am not standing behind the movie -- I have no stake in it. ...but what it talks about (factual or fictional) is MUCH more plausible than the crap this guy and the bible are trying to spin. If you'd like to model your life after Jesus then go ahead -- but remember to be nice to your slaves. Jesus would like that! - you're unbelievable role modeling yourself on a fictional character.
shanemacc 3 years ago
have you really even looked into the life of Jesus from a biblical point of view or only from what you've heard in conspiracy theory movies and fictional books? the best way to get to know the historical jesus is to study the Gospels, that also is an agreed upon fact from both secular and christian views..i wonder what really lies behind your angst with Christianity...cuz how can you not like or admire the way Jesus lived his life at the very least?
revolutionconway 3 years ago
You speak of how buddhism is the most sensible religion to you. There is no historical evidence for buddhism. Christianity has historical evidence. Historians at the time wrote about many people in the new testament. Also 11/12 disciples who witnessed Jesus died for their faith and died believing what they saw. This is very hard to discount. I encourage you to look into things for yourself, go wherever the evidence leads, and be open minded, God bless :).
Spattay 3 years ago
This means a turning away from the sin/wrong stuff you have done. First acknowledging it, and second making a real effort to turn away.
So in the end we live a life in which we battle sin constantly, but if we give in, and just sin because we think we can get away with it, then our faith is not true, for we have not actually repented. It's the matter of the heart, God really cares about where our hearts are.
Spattay 4 years ago
Does a parent execute a child when they make a mistake, or is it a life long process of guidance and growing?
mangobrad 3 years ago
ok but here's the thing - the Bible teaches that Jesus at the same time being human is also God. but if you don't believe that Jesus was God's representation to us then it looks like a parent killing his son. but we believe that although Jesus was fully human he was also fully Divine. Jesus also willingly died on the cross, God didn't make Him do it. i hope that at least clarifies some stuff - don't be afraid to ask questions though!
revolutionconway 3 years ago
ok but here's the thing - the Bible teaches that Jesus at the same time being human is also God. but if you don't believe that Jesus was God's representation to us then it looks like a parent killing his son. but we believe that although Jesus was fully human he was also fully Divine. Jesus also willingly died on the cross, God didn't make Him do it. i hope that at least clarifies some stuff - don't be afraid to ask questions though!
revolutionconway 3 years ago
i have real trouble believeing that intelligent people still have the capacity to believe this iron age crap... open your eyes and mind - and see the truth ...sort through the evidence, just like you say.
shanemacc 3 years ago
shanemacc:
Did a degree in the stuff. Also well versed in science. Metaphysics is real, just not physical. The things that we care about most in life are not physical.
The solidness of faith is logical, just not measurable in a beaker. (Research the body of knowledge called "Apologetics"... the logic of God) Neither is love, peace, or happiness... those are the commodities of the Spiritual realm.
Very real things. Sorry for the limited exposure you've had to Christians.
mangobrad 3 years ago
having a degree does not mean your right - and I wouldn't expect you to accept my version of the world, not at all.
Love and happiness can be TOTALLY explained by biology. And I wouldn't say that Buddhism is the answer, also it is not a religion, it gets that title in the western world -- but it's more of a philosophy of life, I would advise you to do some research into it. I am not a Buddhist btw -- just I just think that it has a lot more to offer than ANY of the Abrahamic religions
shanemacc 3 years ago
Did you just use the word Reality ...there is nothing in religion (not just Christianity) ... all religions are fantasy based beliefs.
shanemacc 3 years ago
I started listening to this guy from his website. It really is refreshing to hear a smart, non judgemental christian. Christianity has so much to say, like Dr. Martin Luther King, Ghandi ( who followed Christ's teachings) How did Christianity get so off track?
explosivo2001 4 years ago
I recomend you read the Sacred Mushroom by John Allegro... Euharist matches canibalism in ancient societies...
atlantischannel 4 years ago
This guy is LAME! He's saying that Josephus was trying to find parallels but having a hard time? He was saying that they believed "nothing different" from the kind of things pagans believed!
YOu have to be a true believer to be convinced of anything by THIS guy...
REman07 4 years ago
Out of curiosity have you researched this point yourself? You've made plenty of personal attacks, but I don't see you backing up your view point, and you're accusing Bruxy here of doing this while he is backing up points. (The guy is Justin the Martyr by the way)
Look at some historical sources for yourself :), And also look at the Justin the Martyr thing in context. I can tell you zeitgeist is not presenting it as it is. If you do the research you will see =), cheers.
Spattay 4 years ago
YOu really dont see his circular argument? JM was trying to convince other people that his religion was not so different from theirs, so they should accept it too.
Bruxy: "That is SO deceptive!" Yet he turns around and says some doublespeak about JM was explaining to the Romans that there were parallels, but he had a hard time finding any parallels but believe in Jesus because there are parallels. The guy is lying through his teeth to his followers. Totally disingenuous.
REman07 4 years ago
Maybe jesus tried to introduce some morality to the nations but also he was turned into an idol (of worship).
drbeyk 4 years ago
way to go dude!
drbeyk 4 years ago
thanks :).
Spattay 4 years ago
How about spelling ZEITGEIST correctly....
drbeyk 4 years ago