Charles Ives: 3 Quarter-Tone Pieces (1924) - III. Chorale

[rick4318]

Now that's some home-bred all-American music right there.

[ixcaliber]

Why are all quarter tone songs very very slow? Has any musician wrote any type of upbeat song ever?

[DarkZekeX]

@ixcaliber this isn't a song.

[ixcaliber]

@DarkZekeX Well to be fair this is more of a song than rap.

[DarkZekeX]

@ixcaliber no, its not a song at all because there is no singing. A rap is a sort of song because rapping is a sort of singing.

[ixcaliber]

@DarkZekeX Alright, then it is an instrumental piece of music.

I tend to use the word song to describe any written piece of music.

[colourfulwithaU]

@ixcaliber

Actually, this is a mutlimovement piece. The 2nd movement is allegro: /watch?v=EU85bUyDPWs&feature=r­elated

[Pato012]

it's awesome to be able to live in the contemporary musical period .

[saschamuecke]

@Pato012 Every person who ever lived, lived in the contemporary musical period. :D

[donprudenzio]

@saschamuecke hear, hear!

[clarinetist100]

wow! beautiful



[akamarutv]

Why is all microtonal music atonal? Nothing wrong with that but it's like there is no consistent anything, I understand there is no microtonal standard but people should develop some scales and chords to work with for some consistency. Since there is no official symbols for demi-sharps and demi-flats I like to use the + and - sign to indicate quarter tones. Ex: a "G Neutral add demi flat 6" would be expressed Gnadd-6.

[ProgWill91]

@akamarutv That is not the case at all. As a matter of fact, microtonal music has a VERY tonal history in Indian culture. They have been using microtones in their music for hundreds of years, oftentimes in conjunction to a single drone that plays the tonic note for the entire piece. The reason why microtonal music is being used atonally is because composers are attempting to use it in a different context. What they should do is start with Indian music theory as a basis and work from there.

[DerekAKimbro]

@ProgWill91 I beleive the drone string theory applies to this: Anything played with a constant string/note in a drone fashion works/can be considered a relevant part of a scale or chord progression. The actual term is fleeting my mind right now, but i've heard joe satriani cover this theory in one of his lectures.

[kratanuva725]

@ProgWill91 Indian music isn't really microtonal.

[yourockets3]

@akamarutv this piece isn't atonal - it's a very interesting example of quarter tone music in a non atonal contest.

fascinating

[akamarutv]

@yourockets3 no, I was saying it doesn't have any type of structure, it sounds kind of random, no bad, just random.

[yourockets3]

@akamarutv I hunderstood that :) but it isn't this way: it's structured and tonal, at all - surely not random :)

[akamarutv]

Why is all microtonal music atonal? Nothing wrong with that but it's like there is no consistent anything, I understand there is no microtonal standard but people should develop some scales and chords to work with for some consistency.

[Pacifiesta]

i dont get it. it sounds normal in-tune to me...

[MERTx123]

I really like this. There is a lot for the ear to hold onto, so it doesn't sound like an utter mess. It has a queer elegance, and the end is just excellent!

[UnexpectedExpressive]

Wonderful

[zfloid44]

It's like listening to music (like bells) in the wind. Cool. yeah

[kratanuva725]

Did anyone else notice the quote from the 1812 overture at: 1:53?

I can't believe I didn't notice that until now! :P

[ShadyNightCrow]

@kratanuva725 Woah, hahaha, sound exactly like it! Well, besides the fact that its in quarter-tones...... :P

[BoxOfFrogbit]

I've just listened to this for the first time, and I'm having a "not sure if want"-experience. But I think I love it. 

[brunolelis1]

it isn't a quarter-tone piano

[colourfulwithaU]

@brunolelis1

It's two pianos. One is tuned a quarter tone down so that the two pianists together can reach the notes in between the 12ET pianos.

[kbrintna]

@lovesGenet: Ives starterd working with quarter tones because he found untuned pianos in the basement of his church. As his father, a choir director was fond of saying, "God is big enough for ugly sounds."

[lovesGenet]

this is describing a moment in life. a memory along with us not feeling quite right in church.Ives has the answer for it all.This is perfect adn it is G R E A T M U S I C !!! oh to put a gospel choir and some tamtams and gamelans strings together.This is sheer majesty!

[TheJackHarkness]

Listening to this really agitates me... I can't listen to this, it's more powerful than me.

[olivemypikachuu]

@TheJackHarkness Dude I appreciate that you at least recognize that and aren't saying "a blah blah blah this isn't real music" Work your way up to quarter tone music! Start with dissonant tonal music then atonal than maybe quarter tone. It took me a couple years of being a music major to love this stuff.

[kratanuva725]

@olivemypikachuu Just saying, I like microtonal music, but don't like atonal music. (in most cases anyway, I like atonality when it is paired with tonality)

[JazzBrother88]

Sounds like Ives making fun of equal temperament...

[Ethxn456qsc]

my brain would probably explode if i heard these notes and the more regular notes played on one instrument in one composition... eargasm. I LOVE IT!

[jackal59]

Man, Ives just loved "America" ("My country 'tis of thee"), didn't he?

Great piece, and a performance that brings out its passion and romanticism.

[KdaUmKdaUm]

it sounds interesting, but the passage in the middle just feel out of tune cause I hear a strong tonal structure.

[KeithWhalen11]

My interest is the approach in composition. Did Charles Ives have this written for two tuned pianos and simply sharpen the one? How would one approach the writing to maximize the effect of the slight disparity in tuning? The effect achieved is mesmerizing, I'm really drawn back to the piece. There is something so unique and nostalgic about the sound produced. 5/5!

[BrizzleWill]

I couldn't say for certain as I've only just discovered the piece myself, but in the second of the three pieces, there are passages that clearly make use of a descending quarter tone scale through the interplay of the two parts. So I would assume that the piece was written with the uptuned piano arrangement in mind. With a knowledge of the way in which sounds interact you could roughly predict the textures produced. If someone actually knows something of the history - help me out!

[JLMoriart]

The interesting thing about playing in 24 equal divisions of the octave is that, for harmonic timbres, the notes in between don't actually serve a tonal function in our perception of the music. We tend to here them as unfinished pitch bends and it can be very cool. Even though there tends to be a tonal center, this really is more an exploration of dissonance comparable to some a-tonal music where certain devices are used without regard to tonality and instead are for "effect" alone.

[DiesIrae676]

@KeithWhalen11 I was just thinking about that! in C major how do you resolve the G 1/4#? our perception of leading/ passing tones are null with quarter tones.

[XylenRoberts]

my favorite of three parts...the most harmonic and melodic of them, in my opinion---albeit in harmonic/melodic in a totally alien way, of course :).

[composer14]

I find this music to be really interesting. This goes beyond what most people think of to be "in tune."

[barcanard]

I love the effect and overall sound of 3:20 - 4:04 and then through the end, it sounds so beautiful yet strange at the same time. I love that this type of music is now being used, it allows for so many more possibilities of harmony and breaks away from the diatonic system, though it can still be utilized with quartertone

[cliveso]

I do think that it is a very clever idea to use commonly available instruments to practically make microtonal music. My only criticism is that Ives seemed to have used quarter tones as "special effects" to the conventional 12 tone system. In other words, he didn't compose the pieces truly based on a 24 tone system.

[TheSaxyBandGeek]

That's kind of what I thought, but who can blame him? This was almost totally unexplored until his time, I'm curious if this kind of music will continue to develop into its own system...

[ToneKicker007]

This is actually very interesting. Some of the notes do sound particularly harsh to my ears, but this research in modernism in music is becoming a stretch. Some of the passages in this piece are clogged of ugliness and become more powerful when more beautiful notes enter the fray.

Experimental... I can see aspects of it growing on me with further listening.

[squandermania]

I'm not sure if it is true, but I've read that the idea that the Arab world uses quarter tones actually came from Westerners trying to transcribe Arab music. The Westerners decided to approximate the music with quarter tones, but actually the music didn't really have *fixed* microtonal notes at all - sometimes notes would be half-way between two semitones, other times a third of the way, etc. Does anyone know anything about that? Is this being too picky?

[oevenui]

@squandermania The microtonal issue is also very strong in the ancient Greek music. There's a very good book by Martin L. West about it.

[eleuteriosantos]

Esta obra maestra de Ives, nos demuestra una vez más como el arte no debe sujetarse a lo "normal", sino que debe ser una búsqueda constante. A veces se obtienen hallazgos interesantes, y a veces no, Estas piezas de Ives, son un ejemplo de lo que es un hallazgo maravilloso.

[MelasChupa]

Tienes toda la razon, creo yo tambien que en general todas las obras de ives son maravillosos

[lastlivingsoul09]

lovely performance

[StevnMareksson]

Interesting... but after a while, once you get used to it, it really is nice^^

[ProgWill91]

It really is astounding how much we have trained ourselves to limit the amount of notes we find "pleasing." There could have been so many more possibilities in Western music, had quartertones been recognized and used earlier in its history.

[AbstractDissonance]

@ProgWill91

No, we can't just willy nilly take a bunch of crap and make it aesthetically pleasing. Music is fundamentally a physical phenomena which is governed by the OTS. Microtones are artificial and this is why this music sounds like crap.

Too many people think just because it's different it must be good. Or they are so bored with current day music they accept anything different. Most get some type of elitist feel pretending they "understand" this music.

[AbstractDissonance]

Don't get me wrong though... Some people try to intellectualize music and I suppose from that perspective it can be enjoyable. It is also not bad in and of it self. It is simply not musical(again, it may be intellectual for you but it is not musical) because it is not natural. If that what floats your boat then so be it. What do I mean by musical? I mean what an ordinary person thinks is music(this obviously is partially musical).

I also see it as a first step which always tends to be weak...

[ArtD42]

@AbstractDissonance This argument that "good music" is determined by purely "phsical phenomena" is stupid. Ancient music theory said that anything other than a 5th was too dissonant. Middle Eastern music is one of many traditions that use quarter-tones. Much European folk music often uses fairly "dissonant" harmonies. And did I mention that plenty of people truly love this music for its beauty? How many times do I have to say this: Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean someone else can't.

[kratanuva725]

@ArtD42 ENNNGGGHHH!!!! Ancient music theory didn't say that anything higher than a 3/2 was dissonant (3/2 = perfect fifth) They found 81/64 (the pythagorean major third) dissonant, not 5/4. (JI major third) And that makes sense, because it IS dissonant.

[kratanuva725]

@AbstractDissonance *cough*quarter tones are found in the harmnoic series you dolt, see: 33/32*cough* Also, neutreal intervals are found even lower in the harmonic series. (read; undecimal, and septimal)

[MrMaxroach]

@AbstractDissonance No one's saying that because it's different, it's good, but at the same time, if people like it, why should it be a problem. Charles Ives was a genius in every way, and possessed a knowledge of tonal harmony far greater than most others. He worked as an insurance guy, so I'm sure his mates at work really thought he was intellectual :/ ... of course that wasn't the case, he just did it for himself. That's like saying certain colours are void because they're an amalgamation.

[colourfulwithaU]

@AbstractDissonance

It sounds like crap? Your crap, maybe. What do you eat?

Microtones aren't artificial. 12ET is artificial. Every interval on a 12ET piano is artificial with the exception of the octave.

But who says artificial = bad?

Also, I don't pretend to understand this music, I just find it beautiful for beauty's sake. Why do you assume that no one can genuinely like this without being "elitist"? Isn't the assumption that your taste is everyone's taste pretty elitist of you?

[akamarutv]

@ProgWill91 Lol then you'd have to learn 24 keys! and there would be like 6 different types of scales with double the type of chords! Since there is no official symbols for demi-sharps and demi-flats I like to use the

+ and - sign to indicate quarter tones. Ex: a "G Neutral add demi flat 6" would be expressed Gnadd-6.

[NitramZiarreh]

this is beautiful!!! Ives is truly a master...

[trevjr]

Ouch! This great, I grew up listening to the 4th symphony, it has some great quarter-tone parts for strings. Ives advised people to stretch their ears and this certainly does it. Ives did all of this before the Rite of Spring was written and his music sat on the shelves of Yale for a long time.

[celloguy]

Actually this piece is a very late piece by Ives - from the mid twenties. all his innovations were explored by him before the Rite though, you are right about that.

[nkupianist]

After hearing it a few times, this piece has moved from a novelty to one of my favorite all time pieces...he uses the "dissonant" sound of the quarter tone pianos to create such a beautiful sound world...my respect for Ives only continues to grow the more I learn about and listen to his music.

[tomestubbs]

This is an extraordinary and beautiful triumph musically. It opened my mind when I first heard it in 1975 when the first recording came out. By now it is so familiar to me that it is normal. It reaches for something beyond what we R familiar with! Get it! Try opening your mind! Thank you Ives!

[GolumTR]

@tomestubbs Or as Ives put it: "Use your ears like men!"

[rexreg]

thanx, BofferBings, i've been an Ives fan for many yrs and have studied both him and his music, but this is the first time i've run across recordings of this piece; it's great to finally hear them; as with all of his music, they're a great mix of the comically absurd and the disturbingly schizophrenic.

[Jakubris]

very interesting anyways but somehow it sounds absolutely scary to me... something like a horror. for me it´s thousand times more disturbing than some brutal death metal. I hope somebody understands me...:-)

[TheBlackPage1]

Ives' wife said that he came down the stairs one morning crying "there's nothing left to write". I wonder if this was much later on, or that he managed to overcome it. Certainly after 1919, he seemed to have ran out of ideas, I think these pieces (1923-24) were the last to be published. I guess he was never really the same after the the strokes/heart attacks.

[liquidtension]

zOmG ItZ s0 oUtta tUN3!...lol, im just kidding. pretty cool. although im familiar and comfortable with quarter tone music, they use it in a different way. its really harsh to me. if they would have played this 200-300 years ago, they would have been hanged - no questions asked.

[trumpetfish1]

nice hair...

[DieselBodine]

Many thanks for uploading these Ives pieces! It's like a dream come true to have more Ives to enjoy. 8-)

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

Thank you so much. Of the three 1/4 tone pieces you provide this chorale is my favorite as I think it most closely realizes the harmonic possibilities of the tuning system with both pianos approximating a single quarter-tuned instrument. I love this piece.

[BrucknerEnthusiast]

This is not intended as a criticism of the music, but how are we perceiving the microtones? Are we really listening in terms of 24 notes per octave? Or are we (whether we realise it or not) listening to just one of the pianos, and allowing the other piano to provide a strange accompaniment? Would we recognise the difference if some of the quarter-tones were not precisely 'in tune'? Maybe Harry Partch was right to ditch 24 notes per octave in favour of 43.

[TheBlackPage1]

For me this music is displeasing to the ears. However I love Ives work and can appreciate the complexity of these quarter tone pieces..I love to see evidence of evolution in music and Ives has always impressed me in this way he has contributed a great deal to modern music. I am also enthusiastic about Bruckner =)

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

Don't the chords sound like train whistles to you?

[TheBlackPage1]

Ah, well firstly I should point out that I have changed my mind about these 1/4 tone pieces, I don't find too tough on the ears now and enjoy listening to them. Maybe in another 5 months I'll be able to appreciate Partch's music...

In response to your question, you're right! I hadn't really paid attention to that before but there is one particular place where it distinctly sounds like that. Thanks for the reply.

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

It is wonderful to see minds opening up on youtube.  There is a real potential for this. I think it is important to raise, by example, the quality of the dialogue about this music. We need to respect that others may find our tastes difficult and vice-versa. I love my grandma, but I wouldn't expect her to put up with these 1/4 tones. LOL

[GreggaryPeccary]

You`re right. To me, one piano is "right" and the other one is "sabotaging" it. I enjoy the sound though. Makes me feel pleasantly dizzy

[iwanttowatchsomethin]

Which piano is the right one?

[tetraf]

I love this chorale, it's one of my favourites microtonal pieces of ever.

[jamsalinas]

Hurray Mr.Ives!!!

[danstearns]

thanks for this... it's great to hear/see more interesting microtonal music on youtube, and all the better that it's a rare and complete Ives' piece. Thanks again!

[kiptw]

Complete? You mean the 4th symphony is longer than 32 seconds?

(Just kidding -- the Ozawa recording of it is a favorite bit of musical comfort food for me. Anybody know which, if any, recording includes the optional quartertone pianos in the performance?]