The Increasing Morality of Society

[stealthswimmer]

just wanted to say this vid makes a lot of sense. Also, more information, from the individual standpoint, doesn't necessarily mean an improvement in outcome because the person has to believe the information. through experience, whether by that individual or having them watch others, the information becomes validated or discredited. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen with all information, but i think it happens with enough of it to improve outcomes, as the lessening of violence seems to show

[danielsondanielson]

When or where has ever 50% of humans regularly died by human killing? I don't say it's impossible, but I would appreciate some source.

[l1berty53000]

I think he meant there are societies where the *cause of death* is being killed by another person 50% of the times.

[Individualism101]

xomniverse, check out my replies to the brainpolice comment on aaron's video.

[rickdelagarza]

To aaron: If you want to see human nature, get a new born, lock it in a room only giving it food and water, never touching or interacting with the child and see how it develops. That's your human nature. I'm tired of hearing that bullshit. Nobody talks about human behavior, when genetics obviously plays the minor part. Nurture is the most dominant hands down. I can explain this to you on an elementary neuroscientific level if you want using Chapter one psychology to debunk your "Greatest Idea"."

[UnschoolingEagle]

.....no, my friend leaving a baby by itself is against human nature... the baby will likely die and the mother/father will have to go against their nature to comfort and give it love. Nurture is very important, obviously... we see how bad nurturing can help to raise a "bad" person. Chapter one psychology does not debunk Aaron's idea at all.

[rickdelagarza]

Well, that is exactly my point, the baby will die without any nurturing interaction, however, your misconstruing it.

What are you talking about?... "leaving a baby by itself is against human nature."....If one was to conduct such an experiment the result would be dramatic underdevelopment and consequently death.And yes it does, because he claims there is a human nature to begin with.Your not getting my point.We don't have human nature.A good quote by Dr Robert Sapolsky explains this clearly.

[UnschoolingEagle]

Our nature tells us to love and protect the baby... there is a human nature... We are not just products of our environments nor are we just products of genetics.

[rickdelagarza]

OK.Well, what about the parents that murder their children?Is that their nature or the environment?Because if it was the nature then they could only love and protect, but this is not always the case.I would say 90% environment 10% genetics.

[UnschoolingEagle]

That is environment... either a bad upbringing or mental disorder. I agree nurture has a larger effect than genetics by far... imo... but you said there was no human nature and I definitely disagree.

[rickdelagarza]

So what is human nature then?

[UnschoolingEagle]

@rickdelagarza People are inclined to be happy, people are inclined to reproduce, people are inclined to survive.

[rickdelagarza]

Being happy is culturally defined.I would say it has nothing to do with human nature.And as far as reproduction and survival is concerned, we have strong propensities to them yes,but that doesnt necessarily mean it is in our nature.You still have suicides and you can still be conditioned not to have children. Its very hard to defend human nature because it implies that we are born with genes that dictate behavior.Its about tendencies vulnerabilities and propensities,not control over actions

[UnschoolingEagle]

Happiness is sought, and it is sought no matter what our culture dictates that happiness is. Just because there is a human nature, doesn't mean everyone is going to end up exactly the same... wolves have a nature... but we domesticated them and changed it. Just because a creature has a nature, doesn't mean it can't be changed for better or worse.

[rickdelagarza]

So what about those with physiological depression?If what your saying is true these people wouldn't exist at all.They're physiologically depressed, they were born that way because of a serotonin deficiency which existed since birth.What about their happiness?They can never feel happiness because of that chemical deficiency.

You just proved my point.If we can change animal or human behavior it is not nature, is it?As I said before, nature implies inevitability, behavior that can not be avoided.

[UnschoolingEagle]

People who are actually physiologically depressed are born with a disorder. We aren't perfect. I do not see nature as something that is inevitable... only a common trait among most of a certain creature. A trait that can be altered.

[rickdelagarza]

Can you give me an example of such a trait?

[UnschoolingEagle]

It is normal for humans to desire happiness. Just because some people have some type of error... doesn't make it not nature.

[rickdelagarza]

"Normal" and "happiness" aren't scientifically supported traits that can support the "nature" of a human.I think I have supported my argument enough.I'm not responsible if you do not wish to concede because of an ego issue.

[UnschoolingEagle]

@rickdelagarza Ego issue? Okay dude see ya.

[cellardoor01]

Oh pinker, why hobbes? why? D:

[moshe88]

I think, from the general messages of his video and yours, it seems like the idea is that there's nothing inherently right about being human, but nothing inherently wrong, either, and you have to either learn or unlearn to be one or the other.

[modelmark]

I think it is largely due to the increased productivity in killing devices, that violence has to reduce. With nuclear ibmc weapons the rulers became vulnerable for the first time in history. Asymmetric warfare changed war.

I doubt it however if Pinker took all hidden gvt violence into account. The gvt here takes half my life in income tax under the threat of taking my whole life. That is pretty much all around europe, which means a couple of hundred million deaths of violence.

[Andrew300082]

Good point. Not only this, but I'd argue that the more nuclear proliferation, the better due to the increase in stand off between two countries-back when only American and USSR had weapons, the USSR was perceived as a much bigger threat.

[MaikUniversum]

@modelmark oh, very good insight :)

[EdwardMandellHouse]

And a do.

[TruthHidden]

Ignorance is the root of all evil, essentially.

[fede2]

so you say that lack of information is the root or all evil? kind of like socratic intellectualism. i'm not concinved but that. it seems to me that the element of will is missing from it.

[XOmniverse]

Will in what sense? You can't will yourself to not act towards what you perceive to be your self-interest.

[brainpolice2]

I think he means that someone could concievably know "the good" and act against it (hence him bringing up will). I believe socrates is portrayed as argueing the opposite, I.E. that one that knows the good will inherently do the good.

[XOmniverse]

I think Socrates is correct if one recognizes that superficially recognizing the good in a logical sort of way isn't the same as really believing the idea and integrating it into your world view.

[Mastikator]

Pinker <3

[Pentazoid111]

There is a correlation between the decline in violence and societies becoming more centralized since when violence between humans was at an all time high since societies were more decentralized . You think that the decline in violence could be the result of society becoming more centralized?

[XOmniverse]

Originally its probably true. I could do a whole video on this now that I am thinking about it, but I think centralization was probably a necessary step when methods of travel and communication were severely limited. The only way for memes to spread and evolve was to have everyone close to each other, basically.

This is rapidly changing though, and will continue to change. Aaron0883 did a good video on this recently.

[Sivels]

get a better cam!

[XOmniverse]

Is this a suggestion or a demand?

[MaikUniversum]

@XOmniverse I think that was demand. I suggest you to get a better cam, though :D But that does not actually matters, because all information comes through audio (voice). Camera only maximize the feeling, that a person is near you.

[XOmniverse]

My opposition was more to how he presented his "suggestion" than the idea itself.

[GamblerJustice]

Very interesting! Good video.