He's taught to first peck dots, then peck dots on his body, then to use the mirror to find dots on the wall, then to peck places on the wall where he saw a dot (but the dot is now gone). Finally, they put the dot on his chest with a bib so that he can't see the dot by looking down, only in the mirror. Its not really recognition of self, its just that he's been trained to use the mirror to locate dots and peck where they were.
@DrJBN Actually, pigeons are recognized as being animals capable of self-awareness. I myself can attest to it as I own a homing pigeon. She was introduced to mirrors at an early age (no training, just being allowed to explore them and do as she wanted). Then, when I put something on her (like the bird diaper she wears so she can explore) she runs to the mirror and looks at what she now has on, turning her head and her body to better see the suit. She was not trained at all.
@RexTyrannosaurus - "recognized" depends on the community that is doing the recognizing. The study by Epstien & Skinner showed how behavior indicative of self-awareness can be learned. That you did not explicity train your pigeon does not eliminate that it could learn relationships between its behavior and the image in the mirror during its exposure to mirrors. The pigeon can act as if it recognizes itself (fooling the observer) without actuallly recognizing itself.
@DrJBN To continue, this differes from seeing the hidden spot in the mirror and pecking at the spot's location in the mirror. Skinner and Epstien's experiment does show that an animal can be trained to use mirrors, but (and I have actually read their published findings) I have yet to see where they have "proven" that it negated the Gallup test. The more apropriate test would be to replicate Prior's Magpie test with pigeons.
@RexTyrannosaurus No, the result of Skinner certainly doesn't prove that one process (e.g., self awareness) is absent, it simply shows that the behavior can be explained with simpler principles- from there we let Morgan'Canon take over right?
@RexTyrannosaurus One would then need to delve very far into explaining what self awareness is. To the the point of questioning if even humans are scientifically "self aware". The test to mention was directed to prove that the Gallup test was flawed and proved nothing of self-awareness. The birds are still very capable of using a reflective surface to locate a hidden object on their body, which would show that they can determine the reflected image as their own body.
how do they now it realized it was himself on the mirror? Because he noticed that thing on its belly? I dont think it could make the connection, it probably just got a glimps of himself just by looking down...
@shadowace421 Look again. The pigeon didn't notice the spot until after it saw it in the mirror-- it then reacted by studying its reflection, then bending over to look at the spot on its chest by twisting its neck. If it had happened the other way around, you would be right.
@fritzgenius15 i dont know... what if it was that white thing on him that caught its attention then saw the black dot when it bent down to invesigate the white sheet thing? surely he would notice his stylish bird apron XD
Wow.. I am so glad to see this. Check out my channel, I have some animal training videos based on Skinner's principles as well. I also did a replica of Tolman's experiment.
Chimps have to get their hands dirty when they fling shit at you. Pigeons can shit on you without shitting themselves and fly away before you even notice anything.
He's taught to first peck dots, then peck dots on his body, then to use the mirror to find dots on the wall, then to peck places on the wall where he saw a dot (but the dot is now gone). Finally, they put the dot on his chest with a bib so that he can't see the dot by looking down, only in the mirror. Its not really recognition of self, its just that he's been trained to use the mirror to locate dots and peck where they were.
DrJBN 11 months ago
@DrJBN Actually, pigeons are recognized as being animals capable of self-awareness. I myself can attest to it as I own a homing pigeon. She was introduced to mirrors at an early age (no training, just being allowed to explore them and do as she wanted). Then, when I put something on her (like the bird diaper she wears so she can explore) she runs to the mirror and looks at what she now has on, turning her head and her body to better see the suit. She was not trained at all.
RexTyrannosaurus 2 months ago
@RexTyrannosaurus - "recognized" depends on the community that is doing the recognizing. The study by Epstien & Skinner showed how behavior indicative of self-awareness can be learned. That you did not explicity train your pigeon does not eliminate that it could learn relationships between its behavior and the image in the mirror during its exposure to mirrors. The pigeon can act as if it recognizes itself (fooling the observer) without actuallly recognizing itself.
DrJBN 2 months ago
@DrJBN To continue, this differes from seeing the hidden spot in the mirror and pecking at the spot's location in the mirror. Skinner and Epstien's experiment does show that an animal can be trained to use mirrors, but (and I have actually read their published findings) I have yet to see where they have "proven" that it negated the Gallup test. The more apropriate test would be to replicate Prior's Magpie test with pigeons.
RexTyrannosaurus 2 months ago
@RexTyrannosaurus No, the result of Skinner certainly doesn't prove that one process (e.g., self awareness) is absent, it simply shows that the behavior can be explained with simpler principles- from there we let Morgan'Canon take over right?
DrJBN 2 months ago
@RexTyrannosaurus One would then need to delve very far into explaining what self awareness is. To the the point of questioning if even humans are scientifically "self aware". The test to mention was directed to prove that the Gallup test was flawed and proved nothing of self-awareness. The birds are still very capable of using a reflective surface to locate a hidden object on their body, which would show that they can determine the reflected image as their own body.
RexTyrannosaurus 2 months ago
@RexTyrannosaurus They can recognize it as "theirs" or just as a stimulus that must be pecked in a sequence to get food.
DrJBN 2 months ago
how do they now it realized it was himself on the mirror? Because he noticed that thing on its belly? I dont think it could make the connection, it probably just got a glimps of himself just by looking down...
shadowace421 1 year ago
@shadowace421 Look again. The pigeon didn't notice the spot until after it saw it in the mirror-- it then reacted by studying its reflection, then bending over to look at the spot on its chest by twisting its neck. If it had happened the other way around, you would be right.
fritzgenius15 1 year ago
@fritzgenius15 i dont know... what if it was that white thing on him that caught its attention then saw the black dot when it bent down to invesigate the white sheet thing? surely he would notice his stylish bird apron XD
shadowace421 1 year ago
Wow.. I am so glad to see this. Check out my channel, I have some animal training videos based on Skinner's principles as well. I also did a replica of Tolman's experiment.
flybybutterflies 2 years ago
pigeons blow, chimps are A LOT smarter and they cannibalize their young. fucking pigeons my ass.
davideugene 2 years ago
Chimps have to get their hands dirty when they fling shit at you. Pigeons can shit on you without shitting themselves and fly away before you even notice anything.
OneDragonmaster 2 years ago
Wow, man.
That's insane.
Fai27 2 years ago
I wonder if George Bush would have caught on that quickly.
ananiasacts 2 years ago
It took me a while to understand what this was about. This is pretty interesting, really.
OneDragonmaster 2 years ago
morgan's cannon anyone?
rmorales123 3 years ago