Ashford's Shared Space - Accident waiting to happen

[minimumcheeky]

Is it not dangerous for a blind person to cross any road? I have to say as a member of the emergency services in Ashford I have never attended an accident on this road and as far as i'm aware there have been none.

[cyclepod1]

@minimumcheeky - Just because there may have been none, there could be several reasons why, one simply because a) they avoid it entirely b) they may have carers/friends helping them, or even members of the public, or it could be pure luck. Sometimes someone drives them into the centre instead. Many drivers have no regard for human life and road safety signs. Emergency service vehicles are also not immune from speeding accidents. I have witnessed a mashed up police car in London.

[StephenETavington]

Just my thoughts. I think shared space is deliberately DESIGNED to be CONFUSING. With no kerbs, no railings and NO TRAFFIC LIGHTS, road users CAN'T take anything for granted. This creates a psychology, as you said, in both pedestrians and drivers thinking accidents would happen at any moment. So? For goodness sake, BE CAREFUL! Thus this would LOWER accident rates! (That's the theory, at least.)

[ikga33]

The shared space is fantastic, there have been no recordable accidents since it opened, and it really makes Ashford stand out as a modern, forward thinking town, which is great for development. It is different, and takes time to get used to, but I'd feel much safer walking around the shared space than over Maidstone bridge at peak traffic time! Well done KCC and ABC.

[cyclepod1]

Ok, what are your views on blind people using it?

[Blitzlevingt]

@cyclepod1 I think disabled and blind people rely heavily on a structured, ordered environment to feel secure...this is a departure from this, however in principle there is no defined carriage way so you can go anywhere, stand anywhere you want and cars, trucks, bikes etc should maneuver around you or stop. After all you don't walk down a busy mall pushing people over to get through, if you see a blind person you step aside or help them through, there are people at the wheel of MV's not maniacs.

[GalacticCantona7]

Have there been any accidents/incidents at all since this scheme was introduced?

[laurenjoybrown]

If 'shared space' as a general principle was better evolved to fit purpose in the UK could people ever adapt to it? i.e we can now learn from the mistakes of the Ashford ring road and perhaps evolve these into UK specific design principles (eg Netherlands - they have different laws regarding speeding/ driver liability and standards of road signage?

Any users with opinions on the Ashford scheme please help me by visiting:

ashfordsharedspace. blogspot. com

(take out the spaces)

thanks! :)

[zakdog]

Your video doesn't confirm or deny any of your claims.

I would agree it looks watered down because it primarily still looks like a road. As long as it looks like a road drivers will "own" it as such. Yes, there needs refinement...all good ideas do and are tested over time. You cannot argue however about the reduction of accidents! Maybe a more balanced critique and an acknowledgment of more than just the speed limit would help you see the benefits. You may also be the type that needs rules.

[pf1806]

Ignoring the design of this individual project (which I believe has flaws- its a new approach and the implementation will take time) surely people will admit that it is time that the design of streets are changed to remove the emphasis on the motor vehicle?

As both a cyclist and car driver it amazes me to see how much car drivers feel like they own the road. However it will take more than one shared space project to change this car orientated mentality that is embedded within our society.

[cyclepod1]

Yes, agree with you. It is a step in the right direction. More and more cities are having car free days and it would be good if Ashford could do the same one day. Overpopulation will bring even more cars and pressure, road rate, the situation will just get worse. Shared Space is food for thought, a sign of change. Mothers with prams and disabled people are fed up with motorists hooting at them to get out of their way. . .

[pf1806]

The project has also watered down a true shared space approach by including areas where there is a pavement defined in a different colour, hazard warning paving along the edge of the vehicle areas, and demarcated crossing points. All of these elements have been added because of liaisons with disability groups......

[pf1806]

It seems to me that most of the comments dismissing shared space are from people unwilling to change. None of the videos on here actually show any people in real distress despite it being said in the comments. Im not sure why issues regarding drivers that break the law by speeding or drink driving are being mentioned when discussing this project. A drink driver will cause damage not matter how the street is designed; a kerb is not going to stop that....

[cyclepod1]

If a drink driver is on this street, loads of people will be walking here, more people will be killed.

[Korschtal]

So far I'm hearing good as well a bad: it seems accidents have dropped by 44%.

[cyclepod1]

I think it would be good to get some rising bollards here to prevent motorists from speeding. They can see the bollards infront of them and there are big signs too. Any motorist who speeds will just have their precious 4x4 smashed up.

[cyclepod1]

I've just seen the 10min clip. A woman from Whitelaw, was roped in to rabbit on about how it was perfectly safe and that there had been no serious incidents. BBC had no one from any disability organisation or the Facebook Group. It said there were some critics, including from Disability groups. I think over 1000 people complaining about it is more than 'some' personally. Why didn't didn't the invite others? It sounded like a Whitelaw PR stunt to me.

[cyclepod1]

The woman failed to mention the 'near misses' and the fact that the police had to regularly patrol it.. if it was perfectly safe as she said, so why are the police there and why do some of the police hate it?

This is PR hogwash:-)

[bluecobalt27]

Your video is ok man, but I'd prefer to just see a few minutes of continuous footage of this thing, to see for myself how it works (or doesn't).

[cyclepod1]

Sometimes Youtube doesn't let me do a continous footage ie it fails so I just did a few short clips just to make sure something is put up. Also batteries let me down. I agree, it needs longer footage. Perhaps others, who live there, can do so.

[cyclepod1]

I think the system is based on 'trust', which is ridiculous, what with motorists speeding, chatting on mobile phones, egg sandwiches and being distracted by children/barking dogs etc. It is not designed for 'the real world'.

[bluecobalt27]

Since I saw your video I have looked at footage of similar schemes in Germany and the Netherlands, and it seems to me that every example involved low-volume traffic. Say, no more than 20 cars a minute.

That's relative quiet, and I think any rights-of-way scheme could be made to look effective. On a regular, busy urban road, I think it would be chaos.

Even if it works in low-volume areas, you have the danger of drivers transition between different rights-of-way schemes and becoming confused.

[cyclepod1]

The lack of volume certainly helps and it does put motorists going off there in the first place. It is just 'the wrong sort of driver', even if is 20mph, it is just pointless with the wrong one. For example a drunk driver..It just takes one bad one to upset the apple cart.

[cyclepod1]

The lack of volume certainly helps and it does put motorists going off there in the first place. It is just 'the wrong sort of driver', even if is 20mph, it is just pointless with the wrong one. For example a drunk driver..It just takes one bad one to upset the apple cart.

[ikga33]

A drunk driver will injure/kill people wherever they are, shared space or not, as one did a friend of mine in Maidstone a few years ago. When you consider that Ashford has very little in the way of night life in the town centre, when drink drivers will be around, there will be very few people on the shared space anyway. I cannot see a drunk driver mowing down pedestrians at 1pm on a Saturday!

[cyclepod1]

You have a good point about drunk drivers about them coming out late at night. That's true, but there is the notorious Sunday morning 'over-the-limit driver, even though 'he or she doesn't think they are over the limit'. For example, many people at wedding parties drink a lot, right till 4am sometimes. Everyone is different.  The main good thing about the Shared Space system is the lower speed limit which generally works well round the whole country. Anything is better than before.

[ikga33]

I do take your point, and agree to a degree, but one has to remember that this is the case on any carriageway in any town centre. The area around St Pancras station in London is now of a similar design to the shared space, but I'm sure attracts the same sorts of issues as around any other London station.

[cyclepod1]

Sad about your friend....

[cyclepod1]

What are your views on lorry stopping distances?

[cyclepod1]

and also limited viewing range from the lorry driver's seat?

[cyclepod1]

I would also say that I don't know how busy it is at night or during rush hour. If others can comment on how busy the road is before, that would be great.

[Korschtal]

Some German and Duch schemes are low, some are high volume.

[cyclepod1]

The 'real world' also includes disabled people, elderly people who move slowly and speeding police and other emergency services.

[cyclepod1]

I think that the fact that it is 20mph is a good thing (though motorists go over that). Just reducing the speed limit will prevent accidents anyway, but all this 'unmarked stuff' is just confusing and a waste of taxpayers' money.. It is so bad cars are avoiding it, that can be a good thing although some will need to drive there as they live at the back of it. Surprisingly the Tories won again in the elections.. so may be some people are happy with this.

[cyclepod1]

Ashford Shared Space will be on BBC 1 The One Show tonight at 7pm. Let's see if it will give a balanced report, or will it be all 'Corporate Spiel'.

No one from the BBC has contacted me by the way.

[f00fighter667]

@cyclepod1 i actually created the Facebook group and was not in any way contacted by BBC other than for a one line statement which they subsequently did not use!

[TylerPerkinson]

its quite a terrible thing, but it really dose enhance the view, it looks so much nicer than the rest of Ashford (i live there and use shared space every day) personally i think they should of made normal roads, with crossings etc. but just made them look better

probably be more effective and safer, as well as still contributing a nice sight :)

[vampiireRhi]

NO PEOPLE, seriously this is a REALLY bad idea, do you have any idea how many blind people there are? now they've got rid of kurbs guide dogs cant navigate them and there aren't even any crossings anymore!!!!! this is really bad! gahhhhhhhhh btw duz ne1 know about the plan in southend for this to happen? please

[cyclepod1]

Yes, the Guide Dogs for the Blind have a website on their disgust of Shared Streets and now have a Facebook Group. Good for them. The Powers that Be.. clearly do not care about people who have disabilities.

[kaleltheripper]

The shared space is horrible to use. I don't feel safe on it at all.

[cyclepod1]

I think the only thing that is good about it is that it is 20mph and that is bound to make some difference and that some motorists are actually avoiding it. Unfortunately, drunk drivers will drive anywhere. They even drive into people's houses and shops. Then the emergency services could knock people over. If you hear of any news on it, as I don't live there, please put it up here.

[thomase1]

I think it's a nice idea to get the motorist to realise they don't own the road. Anything knew will get highly criticised, but actually give it a chance. As all that money has been spent/wasted on it, you may as well learn to appreciate it rather than just fume over it.

[cyclepod1]

The police don't like it either.

[cyclepod1]

Andrew Gilligan in the Evening Standard liked the idea of Shared Space

[cyclepod1]

Is this system a way for the Council to get out of personal injury compensation when there are no warning signs?

[cyclepod1]

What are those cones doing? Thought there weren't supposed to be any markings of any sort? The system is breaking down!

[cyclepod1]

I've read that people are getting beeped at. Soon there will road rage!

[cyclepod1]

There's also a Video against it by GuidedogsUK on Youtube. Maybe the Council just hates pedestrians, cyclists and blind people.

[cyclepod1]

Yes, 'population control' could well be right, maybe the Council had a Two for the Price of One Offer. I heard that lorries aren't allowed in other Shared Schemes. Maybe they 'forgot'.

[downfader2]

I can see the point of shared areas where HGVs are concerned. Obviously the population explosion is being dealt with by the local council there. :-o