He can also design the following property: every party that lies is susceptible to the other partys judgment. i.e: every time u lie u prove that God is not a liar and give Him the ability 2judge you and vice versa. And now the God that didnt look so omnipotent because He said He cannot lie, is all of the sudden more powerful than a god that could lie because He can judge you, a liar, while classifying Himself as a potential liar, simply by restricting Himself frm lying.
@rootepiepsilon I don't understand why you suggest that a god that can't lie is more powerful than one that can. In your scenario, God's power over liars is based on some (and here I use that word again) arbitrary universal law that He's come up with. Except a truly omnipotent god needs no such law - it would have power over everything from the get-go. Inherently. Without having to contrive some weird "you lied I didn't I win!" rule.
@Sannit u got this all wrong. God can lie, otherwise He wouldn't be omnipotent period. However He placed a limitation upon Himself only to show us that even a non-omnipotent being can live up to the laws that He has set to govern the universe.
@rootepiepsilon Sorry if I misunderstood; I didn't entirely comprehend some of what you were saying.
But let me get this straight: God created laws to govern the universe, and now voluntarily follows those laws *despite* his onmipotence, just to prove it can be done? I'm assuming these laws don't include the actual physical laws, or else miracles would be impossible, but only the moral ones set forth in the Bible. Like not killing, or not being jealous, or not instigating rape/genocide.
@Sannit A police officer gave me a speeding ticket. I really hate that in order for Him to catch up with me he had to speed too. Why doesnt he get a ticket? But if a cop is speeding excessively w/out any cause that cop is violating the law & is guilty . Does that mean that as long as the law enforcement officer has a cause s/he can break the law that they swore to protect, without being found guilty? No; that cant be so.
@rootepiepsilon A cop isn't the best metaphor. If a cop decides to speed for no reason, the law can find him guilty of it and will punish him accordingly. But God's law doesn't rule over God. He can break it whenever he feels like it (if I understand you correctly....I'm still not sure whether you think He's all-powerful or not), and will not be punished for doing so regardless of the reason, so the law effectively does not apply to Him.
And, again: genocide. That's not against His own law?
@Sannit No duh...He doesn't need the law..the law is for us who are not omnipotent. Sure He can break the law but the only reason He can't is because He said that He wouldn't lie and He only said so because He wanted to be a fair judge. How would u feel if a judge acused u of murder and he had a criminal record?
@rootepiepsilon You said that He can break the law, and then immediately say that He can't. Unless you're talking about two different people, and unless He could break the law before but is literally physically incapable of breaking the law now, the context doesn't matter. Can He break the law or can't He?
@rootepiepsilon Also, there's no argument you can make that would demonstrate a non-omnipotent god to be more powerful than an omnipotent god. It's kind of part of the definition of the word.
@Sannit Again God is omnipotent but He Himself restricted His omnipotence in order to be fair when judging us. Now how is non-omnipotent god more powerful than an omnipotent one? That doesnt exist. But an omnipotent God that can rule while restricting His own omnipotence in a particular domain such as morals, is way more powerful than one that can simply rule because he is omnipotent. Its like a 2 V8 engines racing head to head but one of them has only 4 pistons running.
@rootepiepsilon Again, I think you misunderstand the meaning of the word "omnipotent." Still, you admit that, while God *voluntarily* abstains from certain activities (like lying - which I would dispute, actually, but this isn't the place), he is still, if I understand you correctly, *capable* of doing anything. And thus my video applies once more.
I would like to point out, for the record, that we have descended into not-related-to-the-video-we're-commenting-on territory. Just sayin'.
Ur argument bcuz ur wrong. The Bible clearly says that God is no man to lie so there are some things that God CANNOT do. If u think that Gods inability to lie makes Him less of a God then chew on this: God by definition can set a universal set of truths so that ne1, including Himself, is liable to abide to those truths. However, because He is God He can create this set with the following property: every time someone other than Him, disregards those truths He is excused from regarding them.
@rootepiepsilon I think I mentioned that my argument only applies to those gods that are considered omnipotent. If your preferred version of God isn't omnipotent, then obviously the points I make in the video don't necessarily apply.
However, if the only thing you believe God *can't* do is lie (which, I'd like to point out, is a belief you hold based on Him saying that he doesn't lie - not the strongest proof), then He probably does still behave arbitrarily, per the reasons stated in the video
whatever language it is that God once spoke to us in we have conditioned ourselves to ignorance of it and as such we are the only creation that no longer pleases God's will.., the wind still answers his every call., as does the waters and the land and all the beasts upon it., except for humankind because we in the words of John Lennon are so enchanted my how clever we are and have fallen into pride and praised ourselves above God
We argue for the right to self determination., when you set aside all theological differences between atheists and christians it is the atheist argument is it not., they build these strawman defences to portray a vicious God., if you discern what it is they really want they are arguing for free will and self determination
We already have this.., telling a child not to touch a pot coz they'll get burnt doesnt make the parent guilty if the child touches the pot
Seems you also understand the difference in definitions between the 2 words God and gods
God = Self Sufficent
gods= Dependent
Although I dont define myself as a Christian for the point of simplicity for the simple minds I come across on YT I will call myself one but as a Christian I dont dismiss the existence of the other gods
Both Abraham and Muhammad done away with the worship of other gods however they kept their faith in the Chief God of the pagan religions they came from
If by "self sufficient" you mean "all powerful," then more or less, yeah, that's the idea. But just because a deity is one of a pantheon (what I assume you refer to by "gods") doesn't mean it's self sufficient - or limited in the scope of its power, for that matter. Zeus was regarded by some of his worshipers as being omnipotent, and he certainly wasn't the only god of his pantheon.
Zeus plays the same role in Greek mythology as El played in Babylonian tradition.,
Abraham left all the gods and embraced El alone creating monotheism and a while after Muhammad did the same for his region
If we are talking Greek mythology then all other polytheistic forms aside., the lesser "gods" were dependant upon Zeus "God" ., while Zeus was self sufficient as you have tried to portray
The gods depended on Zeus for their strengths and you quite often see this portrayed
I'm not sure how you get that the other gods depended on Zeus. If the gods depended on any one entity, it was the Fates, though even that wasn't evident throughout all classical mythology. Zeus was frequently (and often successfully) opposed, and there's no reason to believe that the other gods in any way drew their power from Zeus. Zeus wasn't even inherently kingly, other than by his ancestry, which his brothers shared: his position was decided by lot.
However in contention to your argument about the gods not being limited in the scope of their power you only need to study Greek mythology closely to understand that the oral and written tradition of the gods has them all limited including Zeus who was made subject to Hades bidding on more than one occasion and other deities.., one story I wont go into but their is a god that Zeus would destroy if his existence wasn't necessary for the purpose of balance implying dependency
Wait were the other gods dependent upon Zeus or not? I get that he can be omnipotent or not depending upon the source (though far more often he is not), but both of your comments argue from different sides on this.
I have studied Greek mythology. It mostly limits the powers of the gods, with two notable exceptions (not counting start-of-the-world figures and the Moirae), Apollo, who is occasionally referred to as being omniscient, and Zeus, which I have mentioned.
And anyway, to retroactively preempt some tirades on both our parts: my point was only that your "God = self sufficient, gods = dependent" isn't strictly true, if only because mythology is so rarely that straightforward.
Though the idea of this video was indeed that "God" is necessarily self sufficient - or should be, anyway - the Biblical god doesn't demonstrate His self sufficiency very well.
Sry for the confusion., I realised that coulda come about.,
You portrayed him as omnipotent so I went the step further to imply you said self sufficient., which btw is not my belief but I though it may have been your stance
If we look at it in balance of power then Zeus as omnipotent would have control over all the elements (the titans) and powers which we know he did not have sovereign over any given power and needed a collection of gods to summon the Titans
My point is that from this we can deduce that Zeus was simply one of the gods and not a God who was free from the challenges of the other gods and was frequently in need of their aid
as you say YHWH is free to bring into existence anything he so wills without constraints and it is clearly depicted that Satan is on of his created and hence of no threat regardless of his fantasies
I have however heard of other constraints that I am still currently studying so wont comment on
You come across as very bright and intelligent young man with a hint of philosophy surrounded with reasonable deduction., and you make for a great conversation :)
Greek mythology is not my strong point however but I do have a basic understanding of almost all forms of theism
Im a little more focused on the middle east and and Africa., mainly Ethiopia as the argument for Jesus having traveled to Ethiopia in his missing years is quite compelling
To expand upon the question "why would God create the universe" - The act of creation implies imperfection. Creation happens to change X to Y. The desire/need for change suggests that X cannot be perfect if it is desired to change to Y. If God had a desire to create, then God obviously could not have been perfect.
Matthew 5:22 - But whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Besides which, I'd rather not be counted wise if I'm a fool. In fact, I think I'd rather be counted a fool and actually be wise. In any event, your comment doesn't really address my video in any way, though I suppose, in your view, arguing rationally would count as answering me "according to my folly."
What an absolute brilliant answer,From my point of view The universe and everything in it including, what we call the passing of time.The substance that we percieve to be objects such as planets and all living things that we know of.All exist because i percieve them to exsist
and my purpose on this planet we call earth, is what i want it to be(laws and rules permitting.Wasn' t the universe intended for me to explore my possibilities?The purpose of your being here is truly what you think it is.
We do not really have any idea what a perfect God being is I am not trying to argue here but our tiny ideas on what God is all about is like a ant trying to know what it is truly like to be a human person & even that is not a very realistic analogy but showing the scope of the idea you are trying to figure out
You bring up a great point about omnipotence and the Rube Goldberg machine that I had never really thought about in this way previously.
jmckind 1 year ago
He can also design the following property: every party that lies is susceptible to the other partys judgment. i.e: every time u lie u prove that God is not a liar and give Him the ability 2judge you and vice versa. And now the God that didnt look so omnipotent because He said He cannot lie, is all of the sudden more powerful than a god that could lie because He can judge you, a liar, while classifying Himself as a potential liar, simply by restricting Himself frm lying.
rootepiepsilon 1 year ago
@rootepiepsilon I don't understand why you suggest that a god that can't lie is more powerful than one that can. In your scenario, God's power over liars is based on some (and here I use that word again) arbitrary universal law that He's come up with. Except a truly omnipotent god needs no such law - it would have power over everything from the get-go. Inherently. Without having to contrive some weird "you lied I didn't I win!" rule.
Sannit 1 year ago
@Sannit u got this all wrong. God can lie, otherwise He wouldn't be omnipotent period. However He placed a limitation upon Himself only to show us that even a non-omnipotent being can live up to the laws that He has set to govern the universe.
rootepiepsilon 1 year ago
@rootepiepsilon Sorry if I misunderstood; I didn't entirely comprehend some of what you were saying.
But let me get this straight: God created laws to govern the universe, and now voluntarily follows those laws *despite* his onmipotence, just to prove it can be done? I'm assuming these laws don't include the actual physical laws, or else miracles would be impossible, but only the moral ones set forth in the Bible. Like not killing, or not being jealous, or not instigating rape/genocide.
Sannit 1 year ago
@Sannit A police officer gave me a speeding ticket. I really hate that in order for Him to catch up with me he had to speed too. Why doesnt he get a ticket? But if a cop is speeding excessively w/out any cause that cop is violating the law & is guilty . Does that mean that as long as the law enforcement officer has a cause s/he can break the law that they swore to protect, without being found guilty? No; that cant be so.
rootepiepsilon 1 year ago
@rootepiepsilon A cop isn't the best metaphor. If a cop decides to speed for no reason, the law can find him guilty of it and will punish him accordingly. But God's law doesn't rule over God. He can break it whenever he feels like it (if I understand you correctly....I'm still not sure whether you think He's all-powerful or not), and will not be punished for doing so regardless of the reason, so the law effectively does not apply to Him.
And, again: genocide. That's not against His own law?
Sannit 1 year ago
@Sannit No duh...He doesn't need the law..the law is for us who are not omnipotent. Sure He can break the law but the only reason He can't is because He said that He wouldn't lie and He only said so because He wanted to be a fair judge. How would u feel if a judge acused u of murder and he had a criminal record?
rootepiepsilon 1 year ago
@rootepiepsilon From your comment: "...He can break the law but the only reason He can't..." This is as plain a contradiction as there can be.
Sannit 1 year ago
@Sannit uhhh....okay...out of context
rootepiepsilon 1 year ago
@rootepiepsilon You said that He can break the law, and then immediately say that He can't. Unless you're talking about two different people, and unless He could break the law before but is literally physically incapable of breaking the law now, the context doesn't matter. Can He break the law or can't He?
Sannit 1 year ago
@rootepiepsilon Also, there's no argument you can make that would demonstrate a non-omnipotent god to be more powerful than an omnipotent god. It's kind of part of the definition of the word.
Sannit 1 year ago
@Sannit Again God is omnipotent but He Himself restricted His omnipotence in order to be fair when judging us. Now how is non-omnipotent god more powerful than an omnipotent one? That doesnt exist. But an omnipotent God that can rule while restricting His own omnipotence in a particular domain such as morals, is way more powerful than one that can simply rule because he is omnipotent. Its like a 2 V8 engines racing head to head but one of them has only 4 pistons running.
rootepiepsilon 1 year ago
@rootepiepsilon Again, I think you misunderstand the meaning of the word "omnipotent." Still, you admit that, while God *voluntarily* abstains from certain activities (like lying - which I would dispute, actually, but this isn't the place), he is still, if I understand you correctly, *capable* of doing anything. And thus my video applies once more.
I would like to point out, for the record, that we have descended into not-related-to-the-video-we're-commenting-on territory. Just sayin'.
Sannit 1 year ago
@Sannit well the only problem I have is that u made some wrong assumptions and now ur video is: well based on wrong assumptions
rootepiepsilon 1 year ago
Ur argument bcuz ur wrong. The Bible clearly says that God is no man to lie so there are some things that God CANNOT do. If u think that Gods inability to lie makes Him less of a God then chew on this: God by definition can set a universal set of truths so that ne1, including Himself, is liable to abide to those truths. However, because He is God He can create this set with the following property: every time someone other than Him, disregards those truths He is excused from regarding them.
rootepiepsilon 1 year ago
@rootepiepsilon I think I mentioned that my argument only applies to those gods that are considered omnipotent. If your preferred version of God isn't omnipotent, then obviously the points I make in the video don't necessarily apply.
However, if the only thing you believe God *can't* do is lie (which, I'd like to point out, is a belief you hold based on Him saying that he doesn't lie - not the strongest proof), then He probably does still behave arbitrarily, per the reasons stated in the video
Sannit 1 year ago
Gods not a genie. If you yourself knew someone didn't mean their apology would you forgive them?? Obviously Jehova makes the same desicions.
seanfenrir 2 years ago
Very good video, great logic.
brownajr 2 years ago
You sir - are correct!
kokil 2 years ago
whatever language it is that God once spoke to us in we have conditioned ourselves to ignorance of it and as such we are the only creation that no longer pleases God's will.., the wind still answers his every call., as does the waters and the land and all the beasts upon it., except for humankind because we in the words of John Lennon are so enchanted my how clever we are and have fallen into pride and praised ourselves above God
mysty0 2 years ago
We argue for the right to self determination., when you set aside all theological differences between atheists and christians it is the atheist argument is it not., they build these strawman defences to portray a vicious God., if you discern what it is they really want they are arguing for free will and self determination
We already have this.., telling a child not to touch a pot coz they'll get burnt doesnt make the parent guilty if the child touches the pot
mysty0 2 years ago
Seems you also understand the difference in definitions between the 2 words God and gods
God = Self Sufficent
gods= Dependent
Although I dont define myself as a Christian for the point of simplicity for the simple minds I come across on YT I will call myself one but as a Christian I dont dismiss the existence of the other gods
Both Abraham and Muhammad done away with the worship of other gods however they kept their faith in the Chief God of the pagan religions they came from
mysty0 2 years ago
If by "self sufficient" you mean "all powerful," then more or less, yeah, that's the idea. But just because a deity is one of a pantheon (what I assume you refer to by "gods") doesn't mean it's self sufficient - or limited in the scope of its power, for that matter. Zeus was regarded by some of his worshipers as being omnipotent, and he certainly wasn't the only god of his pantheon.
Sannit 2 years ago
Zeus plays the same role in Greek mythology as El played in Babylonian tradition.,
Abraham left all the gods and embraced El alone creating monotheism and a while after Muhammad did the same for his region
If we are talking Greek mythology then all other polytheistic forms aside., the lesser "gods" were dependant upon Zeus "God" ., while Zeus was self sufficient as you have tried to portray
The gods depended on Zeus for their strengths and you quite often see this portrayed
mysty0 2 years ago
I'm not sure how you get that the other gods depended on Zeus. If the gods depended on any one entity, it was the Fates, though even that wasn't evident throughout all classical mythology. Zeus was frequently (and often successfully) opposed, and there's no reason to believe that the other gods in any way drew their power from Zeus. Zeus wasn't even inherently kingly, other than by his ancestry, which his brothers shared: his position was decided by lot.
Sannit 2 years ago
However in contention to your argument about the gods not being limited in the scope of their power you only need to study Greek mythology closely to understand that the oral and written tradition of the gods has them all limited including Zeus who was made subject to Hades bidding on more than one occasion and other deities.., one story I wont go into but their is a god that Zeus would destroy if his existence wasn't necessary for the purpose of balance implying dependency
mysty0 2 years ago
Wait were the other gods dependent upon Zeus or not? I get that he can be omnipotent or not depending upon the source (though far more often he is not), but both of your comments argue from different sides on this.
I have studied Greek mythology. It mostly limits the powers of the gods, with two notable exceptions (not counting start-of-the-world figures and the Moirae), Apollo, who is occasionally referred to as being omniscient, and Zeus, which I have mentioned.
Sannit 2 years ago
And anyway, to retroactively preempt some tirades on both our parts: my point was only that your "God = self sufficient, gods = dependent" isn't strictly true, if only because mythology is so rarely that straightforward.
Though the idea of this video was indeed that "God" is necessarily self sufficient - or should be, anyway - the Biblical god doesn't demonstrate His self sufficiency very well.
Sannit 2 years ago
Sry for the confusion., I realised that coulda come about.,
You portrayed him as omnipotent so I went the step further to imply you said self sufficient., which btw is not my belief but I though it may have been your stance
If we look at it in balance of power then Zeus as omnipotent would have control over all the elements (the titans) and powers which we know he did not have sovereign over any given power and needed a collection of gods to summon the Titans
mysty0 2 years ago
My point is that from this we can deduce that Zeus was simply one of the gods and not a God who was free from the challenges of the other gods and was frequently in need of their aid
as you say YHWH is free to bring into existence anything he so wills without constraints and it is clearly depicted that Satan is on of his created and hence of no threat regardless of his fantasies
I have however heard of other constraints that I am still currently studying so wont comment on
mysty0 2 years ago
You come across as very bright and intelligent young man with a hint of philosophy surrounded with reasonable deduction., and you make for a great conversation :)
Greek mythology is not my strong point however but I do have a basic understanding of almost all forms of theism
Im a little more focused on the middle east and and Africa., mainly Ethiopia as the argument for Jesus having traveled to Ethiopia in his missing years is quite compelling
mysty0 2 years ago
To expand upon the question "why would God create the universe" - The act of creation implies imperfection. Creation happens to change X to Y. The desire/need for change suggests that X cannot be perfect if it is desired to change to Y. If God had a desire to create, then God obviously could not have been perfect.
qjuice14 2 years ago
A perfect being has no wants. A want is a lack of something. A lack of anything is an imperfection.
pirbird14 2 years ago
Matthew 5:22 - But whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Besides which, I'd rather not be counted wise if I'm a fool. In fact, I think I'd rather be counted a fool and actually be wise. In any event, your comment doesn't really address my video in any way, though I suppose, in your view, arguing rationally would count as answering me "according to my folly."
Sannit 2 years ago
So, you're comparing God to a perpetual genie eh?
That pretty much sums up creationism as a whole, thanks for sabotaging your own belief :).
Santa Clause sounds more believable than this.
Hunter1990 2 years ago
I'm not exactly sure how I'm sabotaging my own belief, but thanks for the comment anyway.
Sannit 2 years ago
What an absolute brilliant answer,From my point of view The universe and everything in it including, what we call the passing of time.The substance that we percieve to be objects such as planets and all living things that we know of.All exist because i percieve them to exsist
and my purpose on this planet we call earth, is what i want it to be(laws and rules permitting.Wasn' t the universe intended for me to explore my possibilities?The purpose of your being here is truly what you think it is.
markmistry 3 years ago
We do not really have any idea what a perfect God being is I am not trying to argue here but our tiny ideas on what God is all about is like a ant trying to know what it is truly like to be a human person & even that is not a very realistic analogy but showing the scope of the idea you are trying to figure out
dmerasure 3 years ago 2
This is one of the best video I've seen, good job.
BlueDahlfyn 3 years ago
Well, thanks very much.
Sannit 3 years ago
This video was brought to you bu buttered toast.
=)
sy1234 3 years ago
stypid typos. =(
sy1234 3 years ago
And lightning. Don't forget lightning.
VivoVitamBonam 3 years ago