Dude, in Europe people choose if they finance churches or not with their taxes and people have a more materialistic (they believe more in what can be objectevely measured) and rational view of the world.
No European contry is "One Nation under God", for example (except the Vatican, but 1000 motherfuckers don't count).
General universal science training in Europe is broather tan in the U.S. and there are no important pressure groups to ban important scientific theories such as evolution.
Ahhh, ignorant American anti-government propaganda fed fools, ahhh- getting annoyed- guy doesn't realise that he just gave the explanation of religious corruption in America- must, click, away.
Europe gagged & retched until vomiting up most of its Puritans onto American shores. Perhaps the question is not why America seems to be quantitatively more religious than Europe, but why American religion seems "qualitatively" more aggressive and puritanical. Bible-thumpers, Pentecostals & Traditionalists have been heavily evangelizing for 50 years in the Global South which will become the new center of Christianity as it fades in Europe and North America. See Philip Jenkins, The Atlantic 2002
@MrCropper well think about it if a person wants to be religious person they can even ayn rand disliked religion but as long as that persons religion does not endanger or harm another person or another persons property they can practice it.
From what I've seen, the more "established" churches - the UCC (Congregationalists), Episcopalian/Anglican church, Roman Catholocism, etc., tend to be more "moderate" than radical reformation churches because they've traditionally had to appeal to as broad an audience as possible. By "moderate", of course, I mean the ability to tolerate divergence.
You seem to define "free" just as freedom FROM something (restrictions) and not freedom TO something (real opportunities). Maybe USA is more free in the first meaning of the term, but definitely not the second. Well maybe my comment isn't very relevant in this context because you are mainly talking about restrictions, but for a European "the American way" of talking freedom sounds insufficient and quite strange. Your theory is still interesting though.
@mindhasyou "Mr. Cropper, do you believe in Platonism or Atheism?"
I am not a Platonist. As for atheism, it isn't something you believe in: atheism is a position on the belief in a deity. I am an atheist. There is no god; the sky is empty.
Mhmm, because America are quite stupid and when told something they believe -That's why. Sorry but it's true, your Government what you to be stupid for many reasons. People who don't believe in God are opened up to much more things and are more intelligent. This may be a opinion but it's true.
Maybe part of the reason religion actually grew(born again christians anyway)in America in the last few years is due to 9/11 and the recent crash of the economy! When people are in distress they tend to go back to church! When things are going well they tend to be more independent and NOT need God!
That "A more free country should be a more rational country" is by NO MEANS an obvious conclusion. I could just as likely say that the US constitution gives us more freedom to hold and to disseminate irrational beliefs.
Aren't you assuming that atheism is rationalistic? Whether athiest or not, that is quite the assumption. But I agree with you, more freedom more religious people.
I want to expand on it. In Europe (some countries at least) , rather than socializing schools, the gov just pays for every child's education. The schools themselves are privately run. As a result they have a better education which leads to more rational thought. Combined with their low regard for religion this leads to more atheism.
However in the US, schools are completely socialized, and that leads to less kids knowing how to think rationally, increasing the chance of them turning to religion.
So while it might seem strange than a more free country such as the US has more religion, it's not so strange when you consider that the education industry is much LESS free than in Europe
This is an interesting answer, but I don't think it's the fundamental reason for this phenomena. I agree with the answer that Dr. Peikoff finally gave a few weeks back. Americans are more religious simply because they are more moralistic (Peikoff explains some reasons for this) and modern secular philosophy provides no good moral guidance. Europeans are more comfortable with hedonism and nihilism than are Americans.
"Americans are more religious simply because they are more moralistic "
People who are more concerned with morality should REJECT religion, not flock to it. Peikoff is flattering America here, and I think he's being rationalistic. I stand, again, by my view. I can see it needs to be explained more thoroughly, though...
I don't understand how Peikoff is being rationalist. Personally, I already believed the same thing that he does about this issue, and I believed it because I INduced it from watching people around me who have turned to religion. They all go through the same process. They struggle and grope for some kind of moral code to guide their lives, and in today's culture can't find it from anywhere in secular society (unless they find Objectivism). Desperate for morality, they turn to religion.
Are Euros less religious than Americans? I dont think so. Socialism, multiculturalism, environmentalism - these all require the same psycho-epistemology that religious fundamentalism does
Traditionally, Americans are more religious because religion, unlike the whims of Kings, *appears* to be more static (read: objective). The idea that God created the laws of nature and that govt must obey them seems more compatable with preserving individual rights than does obeying the Fuhrer regardless
"Why do you concider America free when it's really a police state?"
Police state? You mean the war on drugs? Or the Illumnati? Or the NWO? Or some other nonsense? If you mean the war on drugs, I'll agree - we're in a virtual police state, but a fairly weak one at that with lots of loopholes for people to have the good life if they stay out of trouble.
Why do you consider all alternative views as nonsense? If you look at the evidence that Alex Jones is trying to put forth and others you will realize that the government is controlled by a shadow government.
Exceedingly well put. And I was going to criticize one part of your video about the British paying mandatory tithes. First, I decided to fact check. You are right.
I would only add a somewhat necessary condition that government controls the education system. A lack of competition in education and an abundance of competition in religion is a dangerous combination.
It has to do with their psychology. Europe is more socialist, as such they have replaced the God with the government. America being, more free has not as they do not use the government as a psychological security measure as much, and thus need to rely on God as a security measure.
State interference with churches might be a big factor but I think there is also another--wider--cause for Europe being less religious but far more statist. Broaden the "atheist / theist" division out to a "rational / mystical" divide and you should see that while Europe may indeed be decrying theism in droves compared to us, they are, as a culture, wholly more mystical (in a secular sense). That they are way ahead of us in environmentalism is one good indicator of this.
"They are wholly more mystical... That they are way ahead of us in environmentalism is one good indicator of this."
More mystical, yes. More religious, no. What is the difference between religion and mysticism? Religion requires some inheritance or tradition. Mysticism is unbridled.
Btw, our 'religious' masses in America probably have more sense between their ears than all of academia in Europe combined.
"[Europe] is wholly more mystical (in a secular sense). That they are way ahead of us in environmentalism is one good indicator of this."
Is it really more far-out to say that the globe is warming because of CO2 (which I disagree with of course) than to say that a ghost impregnated a virgin with a god who will forgive you because he let himself be tortured? At least the Earth actually exists. When it comes to bat-shit crazy, that belongs to religion, not mistaken ideas about climatology.
I agree with this on an epistemological level, but I don't think that Americans are more "bat shit crazy" than Europeans. At least not per capita.
Sure, there are more freaks like that in America, but that's only because America is more secure in freedom of speech. Our freaks don't have to worry about being cracked down upon by equally crazy, but opposed freaks.
However, emperically, the vast majority of American Christians are secular in most of their lives.
"Broaden the "atheist / theist" division out to a "rational / mystical" divide..."
I think a more pertinent divide here is the mind-body dichotomy: America and Europe have accepted the same dichotomy, and chosen different sides. America, being uninterested in the mind, is pragmatic and basically unprincipled, and when that gets to be a problem, we turn to religion. Europe has a theory for everything, except none of them work because they don't care too much for physical reality.
MrCropper, what's your IQ? I'm "wicked smart" but dude lately you have blown the shit outta any argument I have for intellect, keep it up even if it is makin me look bad
Interesting analysis, but I am not entirely sure that this is the primary cause. We can take your insight about the free market in religion in a different way. If Americans are rational AND the state does not coerce them in joining churches, then religion should die out. Is it just that churches "produce" more when privately run? The consumer demand for this production must also be explained.
I think that this problem simply comes down to America's less mature philosophic development as...
compared to Europe's. For all their corruptions, a philosopher directly influencing the culture through the promotion of secular systems is far more prominent in Europe than America. Foucault and Satre were rockstars in France, while stale American Pragmatism is not going to provide anyone any sense of value or direction, and religion fills that vacuum.
I'm with Quidtimeam on this one. While I'm sure the free market plays a part in all this, America was populated by a certain kind of person, the get-out-and-get-er-done type, not the solitary academic type. People who want to study aren't the kind to want to go into the wilderness and plow a new farm. Intellectuals stay where the money and infrastructure are, and up till the end of our frontier days, those types stayed in Europe, or, if they were born here, in the Northeast.
"People who want to study aren't the kind to want to go into the wilderness and plow a new farm."
Nonsense. I would argue the exact opposite - people who's mind is alert will be open to new challenges, while people who do NOT 'study' or think will be more likely to just stay in the town and do it like their parents did.
America was originally settled by religious dissidents, but America became extremely well educated over time. Today, we are the only non-brainwashed nation on earth.
"America was originally settled by religious dissidents, but America became extremely well educated over time."
I hate to disagree, but there's a reason (a good one) why Americans have a reputation for being stupid -- it's because of rampant ignorance of the most basic facts. Europeans (not the British) put us to shame. The flipside, of course, is a European dendency towards rationalization and dismissal of reality.
"there's a reason (a good one) why Americans have a reputation for being stupid -- it's because of rampant ignorance of the most basic facts. Europeans (not the British) put us to shame. "
This is true. But the reason for it is simply the crappy American public schools.
"I would argue the exact opposite - people who's mind is alert will be open to new challenges..."
Yes... in the field that they want to practice. Someone who really wants to study science or become an artist is not likely to find their calling on a ranch in nineteenth-century Texas. Such high-level professions require a lot of infrastructure both to financially support them and to provide a venue for their work, and that is what a pioneer country lacks by definition.
Great video and I totally agree with Hitchens' argument which you've further expanded. But, I'm bothered with this particular comment:
'Today, we are the only non-brainwashed nation on earth.'
You've gotta be nuts if you still believe this. Wasn't the thesis of this video operating under the assumption that we are one of the more RELIGIOUS nations?
Maybe you were focussing more on the first ammendment. But doesn't that also give entities the right to brainwash people?
I don' t think that nine9s thinks that that is a necessary fact; I think it is merely to say that many settlers accepted the mind/body dichotomy and tended toward the latter.
I agree, I said that to point out that, where religion does not have the coercive power of the state behind it yet people still follow it, then you have a deeper problem with irrationality.
I would say that the American sense of life is better than the European, but in terms of conscious philosophy America has produced very little. The problem is a pragmatic tendency, made rigorous in the likes of James and Dewey, that eschews abstractions, which leaves a vacuum that religion fills.
Interesting opinion yet it is in contradiction with the following:
-Italy and Poland for example have a very religious population, even trough there is "state control".
-In Islam where people are even more religious then in the USA, state and religion are not even separated.
Thus i conclude that who controls a religion in a state has no corelevance with the amount of theists in that state.
Teranex 3 months ago
Dude, in Europe people choose if they finance churches or not with their taxes and people have a more materialistic (they believe more in what can be objectevely measured) and rational view of the world.
No European contry is "One Nation under God", for example (except the Vatican, but 1000 motherfuckers don't count).
General universal science training in Europe is broather tan in the U.S. and there are no important pressure groups to ban important scientific theories such as evolution.
Danpeini 9 months ago
Ahhh, ignorant American anti-government propaganda fed fools, ahhh- getting annoyed- guy doesn't realise that he just gave the explanation of religious corruption in America- must, click, away.
MiloDaemon 9 months ago
Europe gagged & retched until vomiting up most of its Puritans onto American shores. Perhaps the question is not why America seems to be quantitatively more religious than Europe, but why American religion seems "qualitatively" more aggressive and puritanical. Bible-thumpers, Pentecostals & Traditionalists have been heavily evangelizing for 50 years in the Global South which will become the new center of Christianity as it fades in Europe and North America. See Philip Jenkins, The Atlantic 2002
MySocksSmell2 1 year ago
@MrCropper well think about it if a person wants to be religious person they can even ayn rand disliked religion but as long as that persons religion does not endanger or harm another person or another persons property they can practice it.
zleverette 1 year ago
From what I've seen, the more "established" churches - the UCC (Congregationalists), Episcopalian/Anglican church, Roman Catholocism, etc., tend to be more "moderate" than radical reformation churches because they've traditionally had to appeal to as broad an audience as possible. By "moderate", of course, I mean the ability to tolerate divergence.
MstrirSage 1 year ago
You seem to define "free" just as freedom FROM something (restrictions) and not freedom TO something (real opportunities). Maybe USA is more free in the first meaning of the term, but definitely not the second. Well maybe my comment isn't very relevant in this context because you are mainly talking about restrictions, but for a European "the American way" of talking freedom sounds insufficient and quite strange. Your theory is still interesting though.
SidHenderson 1 year ago
Mr. Cropper, do you believe in Platonism or Atheism?
mindhasyou 1 year ago
@mindhasyou "Mr. Cropper, do you believe in Platonism or Atheism?"
I am not a Platonist. As for atheism, it isn't something you believe in: atheism is a position on the belief in a deity. I am an atheist. There is no god; the sky is empty.
MrCropper 1 year ago
Mhmm, because America are quite stupid and when told something they believe -That's why. Sorry but it's true, your Government what you to be stupid for many reasons. People who don't believe in God are opened up to much more things and are more intelligent. This may be a opinion but it's true.
SniperOnTheDot 1 year ago
A free nation like America....omg I'm in tears
mechnar9 1 year ago
Haha, wow, good point.
The privatized religious organizations are far more effective at conversion than the socialized religious institutions.
Maybe I should begin supporting government control over industries I don't care for.
BigPurple121 2 years ago
Omg, it really sounds like you say european countries isnt free countries in the beginning. :)
MrFelixify 2 years ago
im english, living in england, have been since i was born (in england) and ive only heard of Tithes in history lessons.
so unless they have mophed it into a hidden form of council tax; we have no Tithes either.
XanthIllion 2 years ago
taxpayers pay for cathedral upkeep via English Heritage.
richardcadbury 2 years ago
Maybe part of the reason religion actually grew(born again christians anyway)in America in the last few years is due to 9/11 and the recent crash of the economy! When people are in distress they tend to go back to church! When things are going well they tend to be more independent and NOT need God!
99minerkc 2 years ago
That "A more free country should be a more rational country" is by NO MEANS an obvious conclusion. I could just as likely say that the US constitution gives us more freedom to hold and to disseminate irrational beliefs.
doctordave 2 years ago
Aren't you assuming that atheism is rationalistic? Whether athiest or not, that is quite the assumption. But I agree with you, more freedom more religious people.
Motherbrainzebes 2 years ago
Comment removed
Karlzberg414 2 years ago
Russia was a third world peasant backwater before government forced industrialization and transformed the nation into a global superpower.
Inept indeed.
Viviseckshunist 2 years ago
I agree with ColemanMulkerin's comment.
I want to expand on it. In Europe (some countries at least) , rather than socializing schools, the gov just pays for every child's education. The schools themselves are privately run. As a result they have a better education which leads to more rational thought. Combined with their low regard for religion this leads to more atheism.
cont...
Thill029 2 years ago 2
However in the US, schools are completely socialized, and that leads to less kids knowing how to think rationally, increasing the chance of them turning to religion.
So while it might seem strange than a more free country such as the US has more religion, it's not so strange when you consider that the education industry is much LESS free than in Europe
Thill029 2 years ago 5
Since when is aethism rationalism?
beevtaylor 2 years ago
This is an interesting answer, but I don't think it's the fundamental reason for this phenomena. I agree with the answer that Dr. Peikoff finally gave a few weeks back. Americans are more religious simply because they are more moralistic (Peikoff explains some reasons for this) and modern secular philosophy provides no good moral guidance. Europeans are more comfortable with hedonism and nihilism than are Americans.
Beethovens7th 2 years ago
"Americans are more religious simply because they are more moralistic "
I am absolutely positive that my explanation is more fundamental than Peikoff's. Maybe this topic needs a 45 minute treatment...
MrCropper 2 years ago
"Americans are more religious simply because they are more moralistic "
People who are more concerned with morality should REJECT religion, not flock to it. Peikoff is flattering America here, and I think he's being rationalistic. I stand, again, by my view. I can see it needs to be explained more thoroughly, though...
MrCropper 2 years ago
I don't understand how Peikoff is being rationalist. Personally, I already believed the same thing that he does about this issue, and I believed it because I INduced it from watching people around me who have turned to religion. They all go through the same process. They struggle and grope for some kind of moral code to guide their lives, and in today's culture can't find it from anywhere in secular society (unless they find Objectivism). Desperate for morality, they turn to religion.
soitoldhimno 2 years ago
"America seems to be more rational";
No offense but that just comes off as an arrogant, unjustified statement.
riopieboy 2 years ago
Are Euros less religious than Americans? I dont think so. Socialism, multiculturalism, environmentalism - these all require the same psycho-epistemology that religious fundamentalism does
Traditionally, Americans are more religious because religion, unlike the whims of Kings, *appears* to be more static (read: objective). The idea that God created the laws of nature and that govt must obey them seems more compatable with preserving individual rights than does obeying the Fuhrer regardless
grantsinmypants2 2 years ago
Why do you concider America free when it's really a police state?
Drzata 2 years ago
"Why do you concider America free when it's really a police state?"
Police state? You mean the war on drugs? Or the Illumnati? Or the NWO? Or some other nonsense? If you mean the war on drugs, I'll agree - we're in a virtual police state, but a fairly weak one at that with lots of loopholes for people to have the good life if they stay out of trouble.
MrCropper 2 years ago
Why do you consider all alternative views as nonsense? If you look at the evidence that Alex Jones is trying to put forth and others you will realize that the government is controlled by a shadow government.
Drzata 1 year ago
@MrCropper
Exceedingly well put. And I was going to criticize one part of your video about the British paying mandatory tithes. First, I decided to fact check. You are right.
Damn, that's messed up.
ChristophDollis 1 year ago
Good analysis
thexjib 2 years ago
I would only add a somewhat necessary condition that government controls the education system. A lack of competition in education and an abundance of competition in religion is a dangerous combination.
Great video.
ColemanMulkerin 2 years ago 3
this is true.
elliotcheely 2 years ago
It has to do with their psychology. Europe is more socialist, as such they have replaced the God with the government. America being, more free has not as they do not use the government as a psychological security measure as much, and thus need to rely on God as a security measure.
JohananRaatz 2 years ago
State interference with churches might be a big factor but I think there is also another--wider--cause for Europe being less religious but far more statist. Broaden the "atheist / theist" division out to a "rational / mystical" divide and you should see that while Europe may indeed be decrying theism in droves compared to us, they are, as a culture, wholly more mystical (in a secular sense). That they are way ahead of us in environmentalism is one good indicator of this.
Nelapidae 2 years ago
"They are wholly more mystical... That they are way ahead of us in environmentalism is one good indicator of this."
More mystical, yes. More religious, no. What is the difference between religion and mysticism? Religion requires some inheritance or tradition. Mysticism is unbridled.
Btw, our 'religious' masses in America probably have more sense between their ears than all of academia in Europe combined.
MrCropper 2 years ago
"[Europe] is wholly more mystical (in a secular sense). That they are way ahead of us in environmentalism is one good indicator of this."
Is it really more far-out to say that the globe is warming because of CO2 (which I disagree with of course) than to say that a ghost impregnated a virgin with a god who will forgive you because he let himself be tortured? At least the Earth actually exists. When it comes to bat-shit crazy, that belongs to religion, not mistaken ideas about climatology.
nine9s 2 years ago
I agree with this on an epistemological level, but I don't think that Americans are more "bat shit crazy" than Europeans. At least not per capita.
Sure, there are more freaks like that in America, but that's only because America is more secure in freedom of speech. Our freaks don't have to worry about being cracked down upon by equally crazy, but opposed freaks.
However, emperically, the vast majority of American Christians are secular in most of their lives.
grantsinmypants2 2 years ago
Also, Europe may not have as many crazy Christians, but it certainly does have plenty of crazy Muslims.
Beethovens7th 2 years ago 3
whose low numbers make them insignificant for the most part.
bamzey 2 years ago
"Broaden the "atheist / theist" division out to a "rational / mystical" divide..."
I think a more pertinent divide here is the mind-body dichotomy: America and Europe have accepted the same dichotomy, and chosen different sides. America, being uninterested in the mind, is pragmatic and basically unprincipled, and when that gets to be a problem, we turn to religion. Europe has a theory for everything, except none of them work because they don't care too much for physical reality.
nine9s 2 years ago
MrCropper, what's your IQ? I'm "wicked smart" but dude lately you have blown the shit outta any argument I have for intellect, keep it up even if it is makin me look bad
444DeanMachine 2 years ago 3
"MrCropper, what's your IQ?"
I'm not sure. "Wicked smart" sounds like a good description. : )
MrCropper 2 years ago
Interesting analysis, but I am not entirely sure that this is the primary cause. We can take your insight about the free market in religion in a different way. If Americans are rational AND the state does not coerce them in joining churches, then religion should die out. Is it just that churches "produce" more when privately run? The consumer demand for this production must also be explained.
I think that this problem simply comes down to America's less mature philosophic development as...
Quidtimeam 2 years ago 2
compared to Europe's. For all their corruptions, a philosopher directly influencing the culture through the promotion of secular systems is far more prominent in Europe than America. Foucault and Satre were rockstars in France, while stale American Pragmatism is not going to provide anyone any sense of value or direction, and religion fills that vacuum.
Quidtimeam 2 years ago 2
I'm with Quidtimeam on this one. While I'm sure the free market plays a part in all this, America was populated by a certain kind of person, the get-out-and-get-er-done type, not the solitary academic type. People who want to study aren't the kind to want to go into the wilderness and plow a new farm. Intellectuals stay where the money and infrastructure are, and up till the end of our frontier days, those types stayed in Europe, or, if they were born here, in the Northeast.
nine9s 2 years ago
"People who want to study aren't the kind to want to go into the wilderness and plow a new farm."
Nonsense. I would argue the exact opposite - people who's mind is alert will be open to new challenges, while people who do NOT 'study' or think will be more likely to just stay in the town and do it like their parents did.
America was originally settled by religious dissidents, but America became extremely well educated over time. Today, we are the only non-brainwashed nation on earth.
MrCropper 2 years ago
"America was originally settled by religious dissidents, but America became extremely well educated over time."
I hate to disagree, but there's a reason (a good one) why Americans have a reputation for being stupid -- it's because of rampant ignorance of the most basic facts. Europeans (not the British) put us to shame. The flipside, of course, is a European dendency towards rationalization and dismissal of reality.
nine9s 2 years ago
"there's a reason (a good one) why Americans have a reputation for being stupid -- it's because of rampant ignorance of the most basic facts. Europeans (not the British) put us to shame. "
This is true. But the reason for it is simply the crappy American public schools.
Beethovens7th 2 years ago 4
"I would argue the exact opposite - people who's mind is alert will be open to new challenges..."
Yes... in the field that they want to practice. Someone who really wants to study science or become an artist is not likely to find their calling on a ranch in nineteenth-century Texas. Such high-level professions require a lot of infrastructure both to financially support them and to provide a venue for their work, and that is what a pioneer country lacks by definition.
nine9s 2 years ago
@MrCropper
Great video and I totally agree with Hitchens' argument which you've further expanded. But, I'm bothered with this particular comment:
'Today, we are the only non-brainwashed nation on earth.'
You've gotta be nuts if you still believe this. Wasn't the thesis of this video operating under the assumption that we are one of the more RELIGIOUS nations?
Maybe you were focussing more on the first ammendment. But doesn't that also give entities the right to brainwash people?
SBRslacker00 1 year ago
"People who want to study aren't the kind to want to go into the wilderness and plow a new farm. "
This also suggests that you buy into the mind-body dichotomy.
MrCropper 2 years ago
I don' t think that nine9s thinks that that is a necessary fact; I think it is merely to say that many settlers accepted the mind/body dichotomy and tended toward the latter.
Quidtimeam 2 years ago
"This also suggests that you buy into the mind-body dichotomy."
No, it suggests that I think that *others* buy into the mind-body dichotomy.
nine9s 2 years ago
"If Americans are rational AND the state does not coerce them in joining churches, then religion should die out."
Dear sir, you assume Americans are rational. Churches across the land wage constant war against your assumption.
MrCropper 2 years ago
I agree, I said that to point out that, where religion does not have the coercive power of the state behind it yet people still follow it, then you have a deeper problem with irrationality.
I would say that the American sense of life is better than the European, but in terms of conscious philosophy America has produced very little. The problem is a pragmatic tendency, made rigorous in the likes of James and Dewey, that eschews abstractions, which leaves a vacuum that religion fills.
Quidtimeam 2 years ago
MrCropper, you seem to be crossing your own picket line. :-P
legendre007 2 years ago 3
MrCropper, you are a scab breaking up your strike. ;-)
legendre007 2 years ago 3