Pain and Suffering-Debate 2 of 2 (Dr. William Lane Craig)

[huntmatuk]

How is this not special pleading? We can't know if the pain/suffering is unnecessary because we can never know the reasons for god.

People think that this guy is good? I first year at university can refute his arguments...

[darknlooking]

His opponent has to know that God could create a world that has less suffering but an equal amount of knowledge of God than the actual world? Is this guy kidding? God himself claims that a world like that already exists. Its called the kingdom of heaven or paradise or whatever you want to call it. God is perfectly capable to creating a world like that since he already has. Which makes not only the pain and suffering in this world pointless but this entire world collectively pointless.

[AgeOfReasonXXI]

Craig is such an idiot: a possible world with equal ammount of the knowledge of God and his salvation but with less suffering? how about a world where over 250,000 ppl were NOT killed in the tzunami in December 2004?

[alperduru]

If I got him correct, he says is that it is a speculation to conclude, from tons of heart breaking tragedies, that God is not as loving and caring as we say he is, but it is not a speculation to say that God has a reason which we cannot understand. Is he seriously saying that or have I misunderstood him?

[jedus1]

IF God exists, he can go fuck himself. He's never done anything for Mankind they didn't do for themselves. Ever. It's not about faith, its about gullibility. If God exists he does not give a Shit about you OR anyone else on this planet, Especially his followers or the people who really need him. Children dying and begging for his help all over the planet and he does nothing for any of them? Seriously, if he exists he is purely malevolent and should be hunted down and killed.

[nsmith203]

@jedus1 If God doesn't exist, you are floating on a pale blue spec, surrounded by burning gas and endless nothingness. Our lives have absolutely no purpose, because eventually, the earth will shrivel up and die, and all of your actions will count for nothing. If there is no God, there is no point to living, as much as you love life, it will end, and it will be as if it never happened. Well that's a great argument jedus1, I don't think you'll be converting too many people with that one...

[Sunneyskys]

It is when we come to terms with God's sovereignty and acknowledge that it is from Him that life originates, we are able to let go of the entitlement philosophy we tend to hold and our misunderstanding that WE have the RIGHT to life, the way we want it to be, or think it should be. No. God is the author of life, and the creator of anything is the exclusive owner of it to do with what He deems best, even if we may not understand those decisions, & it takes a mature heart to accept this.

[Sunneyskys]

Cont'd

I believe the ability to respond like this in such a devastating situation is due to the relationship between Jeremy and his God. This is why we can endure suffering and know that God is indeed loving, because of the experience that we have had with Him and the faith that has produced. The chorus to that song says it all:

I still believe in your faithfulness

I still believe in your truth

I still believe in your holy word

Even when I don't see, I still believe.

[Sunneyskys]

Scattered words and empty thoughts Seem to pour from my heart I've never felt so torn before Seems I don't know where to start But its now that I feel your grace fall like rain From every fingertip washing away my pain... Though the questions still fog up my mind With promises I still seem to bear Even when answers slowly unwind It's my heart I see you prepare But its now, that I feel, your grace fall like rain From every fingertip washing away my pain

[Sunneyskys]

Then the LORD asked Moses, "Who makes a person's mouth? Who decides whether people speak or do not speak, hear or do not hear, see or do not see? Is it not I, the LORD?

When Jeremy Camp, the famous Christian singer lost his first young wife to cancer, this is the lyrics to the song he wrote soon after:

Cont'd...

[birdlivesforever]

look up trisomy 13 babies. i see no good reason for that and the suffering it causes the child and the parents.

[Tigranis]

As an atheist, I suppose that I have not seen sufficient evidence to suggest there is a God in a first place, much less a God that desires followers or instills suffering to test those followers.

One has to prove the existence of God first before discussing what God's motives for anything, much less allowing suffering, would be... and he glosses right over that question... then again, even if he had a proof for God's existence, he has no evidence that He is like anything we imagine He is.

[TheAnarchoHumanist]

So I'm supposed to take a leap of faith to believe that God has some 'good' reason for permitting a mother to take cocaine while pregnant? I'm supposed to believe that God had some good reason or plan behind allowing little choir boys to be raped by their priests? Not only does this infringe upon the supposed 'freewill' christians drool over, it also makes me wonder, if God is all powerful as well as all knowing, couldn't have allowed his 'good' plan to unfold, without causing suffering?

[redbulborb]

No your just blaming God for suffrage caused by man because God allows people to choose.

[TheAnarchoHumanist]

This is a terrible argument. I'm sorry, but it is.

Yes, I am blaming God for suffering. I don't see the need? You say God allows people to choose? I don't see this as very fair. So I'm to believe that God allows the suffering of babies, and toddlers, because they chose to break is his divine command. What about the mother who takes cocain while she's pregnant? That's the fetus' fault, right?

What about animals? Certainly they suffer, but they have no concept of sin.

Look up suffrage

[redbulborb]

so your saying its unfair you have the choice to do anything. and again you blame God for things man does it is not Gods divine command for some to take cocaine.

[TheAnarchoHumanist]

Animals? They don't have the choice of sin. Natural disasters? Things like hurricane Katrina were acts of God?

Why must the new-born baby suffer with birth defects, because her mom took cocain? Surely that's not the infants fault. Yet, God with his divine wisdom, punishes the infant.

Although I didn't say that I think "free will" is unfair, it does raise an interesting question. Is freewill worth it, considering how many people suffer, and how much people suffer?

[redbulborb]

animals play a role- as for natural disasters

It is distressing that natural disasters are often termed acts of God while no credit is given to God for years, decades, or even centuries of peaceful weather. God created the whole universe and the laws of nature and Most natural disasters are a result of these laws at work. typhoons, and tornadoes are the results of divergent weather patterns colliding. Earthquakes are the result of the earths plate structure shifting...

[TheAnarchoHumanist]

Animals play a role? What role? They suffer, but they don't have the capacity for sin. Free will wouldn't make sense.

I know how earthquakes happen. I know how tornados happen. What does this mean though?

Even if god exists, and he gives us nice weather most of the time, it still doesn't change the fact that natural disasters occur that cause suffering. They have nothing to do with our free will. The only options left for you would be that God is punishing us, or he's an evil bastard.

[redbulborb]

you are thinking, "Well, what's the point? What does God accomplish by allowing us to suffer?" Very simple he's trying to tell us something. By allowing people to suffer, God is showing us that SOMETHING IS WRONG. If everything were alright between man and God, then there would be no sorrow and death, God is showing you every day of your life that man has been SEPARATED from Him because of sin.

[Chigokai1080]

So God has a good reason for the Holocaust?, I wouldn't mind knowing that reason....

[awesomewelles90]

If there is no God then the Holocaust was not "wrong".

[Chigokai1080]

Don't remember saying there is no God.

[redbulborb]

again, God is the one caused the holocaust?

Its always Gods fault for man's discussions.

"Oh, but no Hitler wasn't really behind the holocaust God made him... " is that what you really believe?

[Chigokai1080]

Don't remember saying God is the one who caused the Holocaust. I said what I said because I've heard William Lane Craig say numerous times that God may have a good reason for allowing the Holocaust to happen, I'm interested in the reason(even though we will NEVER know).

Never said God made Hitler do it either. I'm interested in knowing how you come to these conclusions?

And no I don't believe God made people do it, never said I did believe. Again I'm interested in how yo come to that conclusion

[thehouseofhoops]

Outstanding!!!

[Sunneyskys]

How come science hasn't come up with a solution to pain and suffering?

Man's willingness to murder and rape? To molest a child? Where is science's solution to curing the heart of man?

Hmmmm....I think I'll blame science for that. Yeah...it certainly isn't the PERSON'S fault who chose that behavior...no...no no...it's science.

That's it.

[TheHonestTheist]

/watch?v=fFH0khjgA0U

[gluemoae]

How is this a debate?

[trenton1980]

LOL -- agreed.

[trenton1980]

oh you know what ... i think this was his debate against austin dacey .. it's on youtube if you want to watch the whole thing

[gluemoae]

Ok, thanks.

[BSintolerant]

testing

[mlocke160]

Dr. Craig is by far the most gifted Christian apologetic today. I like how he debates with reason and respect.

[tynoobi]

I think he's just a best known, or at least the most active. I know a couple other good Apologetics

[RationalByChoice]

And just how much pain and suffering has good ol' Dr. Craig endured? My bet is he lives in a very nice house, lots of money, drives a nice car, doesn't go hungry, etc etc

[tynoobi]

what does that have to do with this anywayz

this is America, you'd expect that at least a decent living place, and noone is free of pain/suffering who have lived quite a while.

"My bet is he lives in a very nice house, lots of money, drives a nice car, doesn't go hungry, etc etc"

------------------------------­-

like 150 Million Americans across the nation I suppose

And by the way, most of the large companies sending aid to humanitarian relief are of Christian origin or coordination

[1ProudFemaleAtheist]

And most of the Catholic Priests who were molesting/raping little boys entrusted in their care were of the CHRISTIAN faith also......

so what's your point? Christians are more moral than atheists? Not true. And you don't have 'facts" or "evidenc" to back up those claims, you just pulled them out of your ass...

[Unavailablehandle]

Provided you accept the nonsense that is original sin/the fall and free will, this all seems remotely plausible until we get over our absurdly anthropocentric view (which his opponent obviously couldn't) and realize that most suffering occurs in other animals. When the theologian tries to explain why God created a parasite that can only exist by eating the eye of a living mammal millions of years ago (a parasite that inflicted similar suffering no doubt existed), his arguments die there and then

[Aphex217Twin]

so, why didn't God secure everybodies eternal life, and eternal happiness by just putting everybody in heaven right away when he made them.

[verndewd]

he sounds like another person shooting out stats and that. I think arguers like this are in dangerous territory if they cannot better argue the points that athiests make. I for one believe in god but after 3 of this guys videos i see alot of debate room for athiests.

Athiests are those who absolutely refuse to accept the existence of a creator; their justification grounds shrink by the day it is of no importance to an athiest. Much like christians at the hands of the fruition of darwinists.

[blowitupyourhole]

He makes a great point...Atheists have MANY emotional arguments to the non-existence of God...they do not, however, have many rational, logical refutations.

[budcarfan]

This is true. Athiests often build their entire arguement on the belittlement of the creationists intellect . Sometimes they are subtle remarks, other times obvious insults. But without forming their own "platform", the truth is they would have nothing to stand on.

[1n354a]

no emotional arguments or personal belittlement...

Please prove that your god exists, that your god is the only god, that your god has any of the powers that you claim for him/her, that your god has had any relationship with this planet in general or humans in particular. All evidence/observations need to be testable and repeatable. Thanks.

[tynoobi]

Atheists often say they are more moral and yet they say Atheism is not bound by any common ground rules.

Christians are generally more ethical and don't act on impulse/temptation as much as Atheists= FACT

[1ProudFemaleAtheist]

FACT? Tell me where you got that information from - if it's a FACT then it is published based on research. What is your source?

[1ProudFemaleAtheist]

Atheism is not bound by any common ground rules.

Yes it is. It is based on the Golden Rule. THAT is a "common ground rule." Probably the most useful one ever - much more useful than 70% of the 10 commandments.....

[tynoobi]

and did you even pay attention to the video??

First of all, my argument....tell me, why do you assert that Atheists use the Golden rule(your asssumption) when Atheism is a disbelief in God??

Is the death metal punk who respects noone just as Atheist as someone like....say, Warren Buffet? If not, why not?

[1ProudFemaleAtheist]

why do you assert that Atheists use the Golden rule(your asssumption) when Atheism is a disbelief in God??

That question does not make sense. Why would atheists NOT USE the golden rule, just because they don't believe in god? HUH?

'Is the death metal punk" WHAT???? That question is even MORE bizarre.....What the hell are you talking about?

[tynoobi]

does it mean all Atheists are required to use that rule?? there are rebels in every society

[1ProudFemaleAtheist]

"does it mean all Atheists are required to use that rule?? there are rebels in every society"

Again, this question makes no sense. What do you mean, required? How can anyone be "required" to follow the golden rule? You stated that atheists have no moral code. I stated yes they do, it's the golden rule - treat others as you want to be treated. This is a simple, non-theistic rule for basic good human behavior. Do ALL atheists abide by it? No. Do ALL Christians abide by the 10 commandments? No.

[TimCOM62]

Hello,

I have just read your comments here , and had a look at your utube page.

First I would apologise for the nasty comments people (most of them christians it would appear) make towards athiests.

Second I would disagree with you . This golden rule idea has already been embodied in the commandment , 'love thy neighbour as thyself.' This to me makes more sense than 'treat others as you would have them treat you' , primarily because we are all unique and thus all have unique needs.

[1ProudFemaleAtheist]

The buddha preached loving-kindness and care for others long before Christ.

Thanks for your comment.

[TimCOM62]

Actually he preached self denial and strenuous fasting before changing his mind near the Nairanjana river .

Christ's message at least was neither subjective nor mutable.

This is not the point however;Gautama never claimed to be the Son of God as Christ did.

Take care.

[1ProudFemaleAtheist]

btw, why not answer my question about how you know for a FACT that Christians are more moral than atheists.

I think we both know why. You have no such proof, that is not a fact at all, and you blatantly LIE in order to make your religion seem more desirable. How very Christian indeed.

[tynoobi]

hmmm,.....I lied about that?? I'm sure it's pretty relevant all around us.

and to make me a "Blatant liar", you must prove how I am wrong, which you have not

And yes, I am Christian indeed ty

[1ProudFemaleAtheist]

It is very easy to prove this. You stated that "Christians are more moral than atheists" as if it were a fact. If it is a fact, where is your PROOF? HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS AS A FACT? It's simple. All of the atheists I know, including myself, are law-abiding, hard-working, decent, loving, kind people. They are NOT "immoral" just because they do not believe in God. There is NO EVIDENCE behind your statement that atheists are "immoral" and Christians are "more moral."

[Mathenaut]

Majority of jail inmates are christians.

Now THATS morality!

[1ProudFemaleAtheist]

indeed!

[tashamia]

i always thought the "golden rule" was to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. i don't see God anywhere in that. that's just just common decency.

[RationalByChoice]

WHAT? Are you KIDDING? They don't have rational, logical arguments? Of course they do. You don't know what you are saying and you sound like a completel fool.

[Theol0gic]

William Craig is the best apologist in the world in my opinion. Highly Gifted.

[pantsinner]

im atheist because if god was up in heaven and looked at the chaos he made we would be whiped out. he wouldent try to fix it he wouldent even let the true good people live as they have free will and could turn evil. or if god is up there we has probaly left us and gone found another would and left to be destroyed by our ways.

[toddtyszka]

That's not atheist. That's agnostic. It's a good thing God is not like us, I would probably do the same, but instead, God is perfect love, full of grace and mercy, and instead of killing us, he came to earth Himself to suffer and die with us and for us, so that we could be with Him forever. Read the New Testament in an easy to understand translation like NIV and you will get to know the heart of God.

[DelGriffith10]

Amen, toddtyszka! ... it truly is so easy, yet overwhelmingly complex at the same time to understand and submit to Christ.

[brad78ton]

Terms like "good" and "evil" only make sense in a theistic worldview. Since evil implies an objective distiction from good; the objective principle (i.e. rule, law) that displays the distinction must be, by defintion, objective in scope. Objective moral laws imply an objective moral lawgiver.

[BassP86]

Actually, that is a more EMOTIONAL objection to God's existence, not an INTELLECTUAL one. Here's why: your objection is based on two presuppositions being 1) because I cannot sense God by touch/sight/hearing/etc. it is most likely that he does not exist, and 2) God made this chaos himself, so he is therefore obligated to fix it.

[BassP86]

#1 is a false dichotomy as it assumes that the existence of something is dependent on our senses. With #2, you MUST substantiate why God must fix a world of suffering that he supposedly would have caused. Morever, you MUST give substantial reasons as to why you conclude that God is the one responsible for the creation of such chaos. Can you?

[mattrollins87]

pantsinner through the Bible you can see that God does NOT WANT to wipe us out. He wants us know Him and be saved. "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live." (Ezek. 33:11)

[Brightstar27]

@pantsinner Discover Jesus Christ, God become flesh, entering into His falle, chaotic creation to save it by His death and resurrection. Discover the person of Christ and you will know the heart of God.

[11Mockingbirds]

@pantsinner A quiet question: Can you read my mind, right now? ... How about now .... anything yet? I'm trying to show you that it is impossible for you to purport to read GOD's mind. If your concerns are sincere, then they are legitimate. I was agnostic, with questions of my own, I prayed, God, IF you are REAL, then I NEED TO KNOW. Since then, when I read the Bible, wow. I read somewhere that the Bible is veiled. Ask that this be lifted. Go for it. You'll never look back. (ok to write me)

[MarianBlase]

@pantsinner Fix it? God created us and gave us free will. without chaos and evil, life would be perfect, but perfection does not exist in this world. it's in Heaven. so why can't life be perfect like heaven? are you God? we're human and we chose to sin, that's why chaos is happening. you know why you're suffering? because you don't know God.