Lynn Harrell - Webern: "Drei kleine Stucke" (Three little pieces), Op. 11

[davehshs]

Webern's music may be compositionally brilliant, but it offers all the musical pleasure of a mathematical formula -- read while listening to irritating, disjointed noise.

[physphilmusic]

@davehshs I can't really say for Webern's later 12 tone music, but this is not one of those. Drei kleine Stücke are pieces from his freely atonal Expressionist period. And I can say to you that having studied the music closely, and performing it, Webern's music is often able to express emotions much different and deeper than those in traditional tonality. Unlike early Boulez, there are hardly mathematical formulas in early Webern - it is just that, condensed, pure expression.

[davehshs]

@physphilmusic I'd be interested in knowing exactly what "emotions" you hear expressed in these pieces. And what is the "condensed, pure expression" an expression of? The only emotions I get from this music are anger, primarily, and perhaps fear. In any event, the emotions are polar opposites from those aroused by Bach's music.

[MsVaxxine]

@davehshs Hi, I think this type of music is more about enjoying the different colours and effects; there are emotions but it's not until you let yourself get driven by the music that you can identify them. I think this is the exact opposite of math, I think traditional harmony resembles math so much more with all the rules and preconceived forms. But music is a matter of personal taste so if this music doesn't move you and you don't enjoy it I guess there's nothing to do about it.

[davehshs]

@MsVaxxine There's no doubt that musical preference is very much a matter of personal taste. It would be interesting to see how this music would affect the growth of plants compared to, say, Mozart. Arguably, that would be a more "objective" measurement of the effect of the music on cellular and other life processes.

[physphilmusic]

@davehshs That would indeed be an objective measurement. But a measurement of what? Just a measurement of how it affects plants. Musical value? Absolutely nothing to do with it. Say that it's discovered that Mozart makes plants grow much faster, while Beethoven and Chopin makes only a tiny difference. Does that mean that Mozart's music is objectively better than Beethoven's and Chopin's? That would be absurd. Which shows how pointless the plant experiment is.

[physphilmusic]

@davehshs The Second Piece is indeed full of anger and passion. But it's an anger not much different from that in Romantic music. If you say that "the emotions are polar opposites from those aroused by Bach's music", that's almost implying that Bach's music only expressed a very narrow spectrum of emotions (which is opposite to Webern's) If you think like that, it's likely that you haven't really appreciated Bach either.

[davehshs]

@physphilmusic Music of the Romantics, in particular, contains much that arouses strong emotions, but it is nearly all cathartic in one way or another. I sense no catharsis in Webern's music. IMO, it is merely an irritant, with no resolution. It is clear that we are not going to agree on this, so I respectfully acknowledge your right to your opinion and let it go at that. It is largely a matter of personal taste, with no objective way to prove either of us right. Cheers.

[physphilmusic]

@davehshs There is clearly no resolution in the tonal sense of the term. But I invite you to look at the music closer, more carefully - Webern does also achieve catharsis, only in a non-conventional way. His music clearly goes somewhere. Even this work proves it - look at the structure: a quite expansive first movement, very passionate second movement, and a very resigned, quiet, and slow third movement which fits nicely as a coda.

[davehshs]

@physphilmusic I'm referring to emotional catharsis/resolution. I don't think anyone will experience that from Webern. I do wonder why you felt so compelled to learn to like Webern as to make yourself listen to a piece 30 times. The large number of masochists in the world is proof that humans can learn to like that which is physically and emotionally painful and harmful. I'm simply not motivated to listen repeatedly to music that is so emotionally and physically disturbing.

[physphilmusic]

@davehshs I WAS indeed talking about emotional catharsis/resolution. Incidentally, this Webern piece happens to end on a more positive emotional note than say, Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony, which ends in utter despair. Do you think someone enjoying that symphony is a "masochist" then?

[davehshs]

@physphilmusic One other thing: I don't view music as a drug to induce 'good' feelings. Some of the best music arouses great sadness, which can be cleansing and cathartic, but not necessarily pleasant. Webern's music just annoys me, as does John Cage's. I find no 'soul' in it, just cleverness. Of course, 'soul' is a very subjective term, but if you find it totally meaningless, then that perhaps best defines our differing outlooks on music.

[physphilmusic]

@davehshs In that case we do not really disagree that much concerning the role of music. The major difference is that after I carefully analyzed this piece by Webern, I discovered that there is a genuine "soul" in it. I haven't discovered it John Cage or Boulez, so I can't say anything about them. But I honestly have discovered it in this piece.

[physphilmusic]

@davehshs The reason why I bothered to listen to it for 30 times is because I know there are tons of people smarter and more musically informed than me who are able to understand it. These people I'm talking about have a better understanding of ALL composers, not just atonal ones. They appreciated even Bach and Mozart better than I did. If they said that Webern is also a brilliant composer, why should I dispute them on the flimsy basis that the music isn't appealing at face value?

[davehshs]

@physphilmusic I've never known anyone who embraced ALL music in all genres and doubt that such a person exists. So, even though I love the large majority of classical music, I'll continue to 'enjoy' the absence of Webern's music in my life, without feeling guilty for failing to rise to the level of those who appreciate Webern's musical cleverness. The structure of music may be mathematical, but it's essence has always transcended that level, and, ultimately, it's personal.

[physphilmusic]

@davehshs And after listening to Webern, Schoenberg, and even Stockhausen and Varese, I can tell you with a straight face that the music isn't emotionally "harmful". It might be emotionally painful sometimes, but I view it as necessary to understand human nature better. I don't only treat music as a drug which induces only good feelings in me. If I did, I would listen only to Mahler's 2nd and pop music. You seem to view music that way.

[davehshs]

@physphilmusic You seem to view 'entertainment' in a narrow, pejorative way. I prefer the word 'enjoyment.' IMO, everyone who listens to music enjoys it in some manner, at some level, even if it's only a mental appreciation for its mathematical elegance, such as with Bach's 'Art of the Fugue.' But most music has an emotional component, and it is at that level that most humans have always enjoyed music.

[physphilmusic]

@davehshs Webern's music doesn't sound so harsh if you try to open up your mind and ears and stop associating certain kinds of harmonies/intervals as "unpleasant". Clearly you already have a very well-defined taste in music, but still, it's really exciting to see what happens when you challenge yourself and try to convince yourself that Webern is beautiful. It will never be as beautiful as Bach is (for me even), but something amazing will still result.

[physphilmusic]

@davehshs Lastly, I also only got the hang of Webern after listening to this piece over 30 times - so perhaps you might want to give it more of a try. I rarely understand pieces after only 2-3 listens

[physphilmusic]

@davehshs If you want me to give more examples of what expression is in the music - I would think that the Third Piece (starting 2:52) is full of resignation, even yearning for something ethereal (notice the beautiful cello harmonics at the end)? Alban Berg said that this Op. 11 conveyed a "breath of eternity".

[physphilmusic]

@davehshs And lastly, is there anything wrong with music which expresses anger or fear? Why does our music have to express only "happy" and "positive" emotions? Do you listen to music as only entertainment or as a way to transform yourself for the better, to understand more about the human condition? I try to do the latter, and that's why I like Bach as well as Shostakovich.

[davehshs]

@physphilmusic You make some good points. I mentioned music's effects on plants because they are easier to quantify than with humans. However, it has been demonstrated that some kinds of music are life- and health-affirming and others are destructive, at both the organ and cellular level. Webern's music is harsh and creates emotional/physical stress. If you find that desirable, then go for it. I don't.