funny to say, everybody is against bill gates... and guess what... bill is a billionaire, everybody, is poor.... witch crowd should I follow??? mmm??? kind of hard to decide... I wanna be rich, but I can't since the rich belong to the other side... ummm? OK, how about if I try their way?? maybe I have a chance instead of been against them... by the way, CNN make most of their money in other countries, I find this video hypocrite... CNN.com see it your self.
So what about the free market? Has America stopped being a capitalist economy? Is there going to be a national socialist movement in the United States? The new liberal policies are funny indeed!!!
USA going to hell in a hand basket slowly but surely. Outsourcing our labor is devaluing every thing, trade deficit, innovation etc etc etc..Corp America will ruin this great land mark my words. Now they are dead ass wrong on the visa, the workers brought over here are paid 20 - 50% more than us but the Indian companies employing them are not and I know because we do it. The Indians that attain management positions on our soil will not hire Americans either. Sad, hell in a hand basket......
Gates and those in favor of H1B visas are focused on skimming the spread between contracted wages and actual wages. These anti-labor, anti-American TRAITORS are devaluing the very foundations or fair wages, terms and conditions and good faith bargaining that it took two hundred years to establish. If I seriously thought that I could kill Bill Gates and redestribute his fortune to the brilliant individuals and corporations he destroyed building his monopoly, I would happily do so.
This is confusing as hell. While its not surprising that large companies will lie about the reason for H1B's, why do jobs in IT and whatnot keep getting trumped up by various media as "hot career fields" to get into?
CHEAP LABOUR? its not mexican or chinese Labour Fuckers, We Use Brains and you guyz will know the value of it when some day WellsFargo or BOA softwares go blank and you guyz will come crying to so called CHEAP LABOUR for help..... American are so Dumb that they dont even see that we have rulled world for more than 5000 Years....
most of these indians wind up in dunkin donuts or gas stations working for min wage and sucking up wefare, food stamps and section 8 housing. they do low or mid level jobs for half the pay.
jobs will be outsourced. Business are done for profits not for charity. New technology needs to be invented. At present the old technology has gone to china and energy harvesting systems would remain for next few years in usa.
Yes, but the problem is that all that OLD technology was INVENTED here in the US by mostly native born people. Today because of H1B, these type of people simply are NOT going into STEM - the native born best and brightest brain drain problem.
Its called censorship; people cannot refute my ideas, so they attempt to supress them. This is another strength of American culture that is missing in China - we tolerate the speech of people even if we disagree.
With you on the freedom of speech. Parts of India have had democracy for thousands of years (read about the first world democratic republics in India). Freedom of speech is ingrained in us. China is a lost cause. Another great civ gone down the drain. That is what thrills me abt India, it is millenia old but has still retained its old traditions and religions whilst still embracing modernity. Sign. Blessed am I to be born in this great country :-)
Yes, it is. But, it still has a 19th century infrastructure. It needs to stop worrying about BS like IT and H1Bs and work on making real jobs for its own citizens by developing its own physical infrastructure.
The 90s were when the Politicians woke up to the need for infrastructure. Until then they were drunk on Communist visions of greatness which were impractical. Every ind.revolution needs a source of funds. IT and Bio Tech are fueling India's capital needs, its no wonder that India already is in the top 10 list of manufcaturers and promises to outstrip even China's growth. IT is India's ladder to riches so be it.
India's IT is based on US financials, that era is over. IT is dead. India ought to be concentrating of physical infrastructure to life it out of the 19th century. Its real jobs not bogus money laundering slots.
India is concentrating significantly on physical infrastructure so much so that every time I drive on the nation's highways I am reminded of I-85 and I-40. Travel times between most cities have been cut down by almost 50%. IT is services and in a maturing economy services play a bigger part than manufacturing. India has done well in moving up the value ladder in IT services. From low grade application support in the 90's to full cycle microprocessor development. There is good progress.
IT can never provide the jobs and wealth that India needs, that can only come from development of infrastructure, jobs, unions and industries - things that build a middle class. The US couldn't outsource enough jobs to India to even make a dent in umemployment there as the population grows. India sould stop garbaging out on IT - like Opium - forget IT and Bill Gates - and develop its own markets - not depend on Europe and America.
Yes it can. NASSCOM predictions for IT jobs has been right on and never missed the target. The IT industry brings in close to 100 billion dollars into the Indian economy every year. Thanks to it, other sectors like bio tech and manufacturing have shot up due to increased demand. Your assertion that IT is not useful to India is blatantly incorrect, the facts speak otherwise.
@wowyogi Thats not what I have heard - I've heard that the financial meltdown and the collapse of the US financail markets has reduce the need to Indian IT services dramatically resulting in loss of demand. Automation of IT processes will further erode the need for human IT labor.
I live and speak from India and I am very much in IT so I am in the know of what is happening. As I type this I have 6 offers for jobs in my hand, am having a tough time on which one I need to pick. Its open season here. Only 50% of our exports are from US and a recession in US has had close to a zero impact on our overall growth. Sure there was a hiccup but again no one really noticed its impact if any.
If you compare the domestic ecnonomy of India and CHina you will be surprised to know that exports contribute only 20% to India's GDP. China's is almost 80%. India's vast domestic market has helped it tide past the economic crisis and even ended up buying tonnes of gold, the largest gold purchase ever.
The medical works of both Sushruta and Charak were translated into Arabic language during the Abbasid Caliphate (750 AD).[8] These Arabic works made their way into Europe via intermediaries.[8] In Italy the Branca family of Sicily and Gaspare Tagliacozzi (Bologna) became familiar with the techniques of Sushruta.[8]
Joseph Constantine Carpue spent 20 years in India studying local plastic surgery methods.[9] Carpue was able to perform the first major rhinoplasty in the western world by 1815.[10] Instruments described in the Sushruta Samhita were further modified in the Western World.[10]
Yes, and the first heart transplant was performed by a white man in South Africa. Sterile technique was invented in Euorpe and America. So? Even if they were invented in India - they were dramatically improved by Europeans - which proves my point!
No, this contradicts your point, goes to show that even in the last 200 years innovation kept pouring out of India and the non-Western parts of the world.
What's that got to do with electronic computers and H1B? I've said that there has been a lot of knowledge transfer in the ancient world. Caucasian people brought advance metal and weaving technology to China. And, a lot of things like silk, gunpowder and noodles came to Euorpe from there. And, knowlege from India can to Europe and vise versa. The point is that electronic computers and telecommunications was invented in Europe and America.
Goes to show that Indians and Chinese kept pouring put innovation even at their lowest ebb of last 200 years while the West only contributed in last 200 years. Pooof, there goes your point of the west being the most technologically innovative!
No modern technology industry was invented in China or India - that's proof that America and Euorpe ARE more technologically innovative that China or India.
So back to saying that no modern technology was invented in India and China? LOL. Modern steel making process was taken from India while Europe still imported steel during the early phases on ind revolution. Radio, Ultra modern new material fuel cycles, test tube babies and lots more have come from India and China. India and China ARE the world's pre-emient civs technically and culturally while the European and American mutts are new kids on the block with a attitude problem.
Everytime your snake oil theories of how Western innovation is better than Eastern innovation is cut down to size by facts presented to you, you run around crying foul and wish to take back the discussion to the H1b issue. No one here cares two hoots abt the H1b, its your weird assertion that somehow the cyulture-less West is more technically innovative than India and CHina.
As far as China is concern, Cacasian mummies dated 2-3K years BC found in Western China show advanded weaving and smelting technicques that were superior to those in China at the time. The work of Victor Meyer has shown that innovations coming east from the West may have been responsible for jump starting technological development in China at a time when it was still largely multicultural and aborinal. Gunpowder might actually have been invented in the West.
The first people to come up with alphabet were the Phoenicians who were not from the WEST. The Romans copied their alphabet from the Phoenicians just as they copied their numerals from the Egyptians. Funny isnt it, you copy all from the non-Westerners, but dont want them in your country?
Your assertion that Phoeneicans and Egyptians were not part of the "WEST" is only partly correct. Most historians consider "the West" to be any place "west" of the Caucasus Mountains. The biggiest users of H1B aren't Egyptians or the Middle East. countries, its India. America imports 1.4M new residents EACH year; we just have problems with cheap labor programs that bring in people largely from China or India.
THe term West by itself is racist, no one has ever defined it clearly let alone historians. All Anglo Saxon/Teuton/Nordic and Gaullishnations are considered the West. Which is why Eastern Europe doesnt make it in the West. White on White racism, you see. While the American youth without education sit in bars spending fake money printed by the govt, smart industrious ppl from India and China make up for the brains part. Too bad, the most innovative ppl have to survive on foreign brains.
Obama is a front; he has denied a worker shortage; only aknowleged a skill shortage. How ever, with the high unemployment that argument no longer is valid.
Same parity? Haha ! Seek my friend and you will find the reasons!
- It was not without reason that thousands of ships sailed to find a way to india! Heck your very country was found by accident in a voyage set out to find India
Now why would they risk life and limb for that? What does it tell about the state of Europe in the middle ages?
- Ever heard of William Digby! The case of loot and the the renaissance? Fat chance of a co-incidence!!!
Actually, Columbus was looking for a way to "the East" not just India - principally the spices of China. When he landed in the New World the native resembled "Indians" and unfortunately the name stuck. Its joke among Native Americans today that they were lucky he wasn't "looking for Turkey"!
_Your_ second sentence here contradicts your first !!
And I dont think you understand what I am telling you. Let me try again: Innovation/Inventions rely on many factors: need, environment , economic climate _and_ history.
To state that _your_ "modern" inventions could have taken place independently is naieve at best, ignorant at the most.
I guess you are seeing the visible end of the spectrum only, if you know what I mean!
He was looking for a alternative route for the spice route used from Euorpe to China. India was more accessible being closer to Euorpe. The drive was to get a more direct route to China or "The East".
So why did he name the natives of the land Indians then?
I am not sure if you would succeed convincing even middle school students with your theory, let alone the rest of the world!
From your arguments in the comments section, I do not think you have backed yourself up with even basic knowledge of science or history which makes you unqualified to comment on this!
When columbus encountered the natives in the Carribean, they resembled people from India - they obviously didn't look Chinese. He must have assumed that he hit India first. But, his intention was to get direct access to lucrative spice markets in China.
Absolutely, its a combined knowlege base passed up through history from all peoples in the world. The point is that the confluence of these factors that created modern tech was in Euorp and more importantly in America. All the factor came together here in the US and not in China or India. And, the unansered question is stil why did they get invented here and NOT in China or India.
Nothing in your post has anything to do with H1Bs. The fact that colonialism was brutal has NOTHING to do with the fact that with almost 10K years of history between them ALL of the major technological innovations in the last 200 years have been made by largely Europeans and Americans. So why give preference for H1B to people from countries that have no proven record in modern technology?
you continue to say that modern electronics and computers are the best thing that happened to humanity. Since some engineers/scientists in US developed that tech, US is the greatest and most innovative place on earth.
Modern numerology and astronomy originated and developed in India and was spread by pre-islamic Arabs.Try making a single computer or any digital tech by leaving out mathematical theorems of non-western origin and using your own Roman numerals.
China invented gunpowder and Indians had been using explosives (limited) that Europeans copied and used to massacre native Asian, African and native American people.
Tipu Sultan from India pioneered the use of rockets, your NASA acknowledges this fact
Modern numerology and astronomy originated and developed in India and was spread by Arabs. Seems strange discussing something like with somebody who says that noodles and paper are most significant Chinese inventions in their homes :))
If you around the typical Americans home and look for the things INVENTED in China or India you will find only three: gunpowder, noodles and paper. They are thousands of years old; everything else is recent and INVENT in the US. If there are some old mummies that need H1Bs I'll be happy to sponsor them!
The toilet, the sewage system, the phone in your home, wireless sets in you are a ham operator, the television, the electricity from the nuclear power stations, the jeans cloth, I can go on and on. The thing is you dont seem to take note of them and keep focusing inventions on electronics of the last 200 years and only those in your household. Sad!
Its not me; its Bill Gates and his lobbyist who insist on lying to the public that H1Bs have been important in modern technology. I'm just pointing out that he is wrong and that H1Bs have had no important contributions to modern tech and that China and India historicall have not produced any important innovations that would justify them displacing native born Americans in jobs.
As wowyogi has been saying it for months, your sense of superiority is entirely misplaced.European, Indian, Chinese, Mayan ..every civilization had it;s crests and troughs and each one had it's glorious moments like you had since late 19th century till shall i say early 20th century? Your beef with H1B visa is understandable but considering that your beloved US itself is a country of immigrants and what your founding fathers wrote about sheltering downtrodden people, you shouldn't be posting st
Culture evolution is like biological evolution. Culture at a give time and place is optimized to doing some things very well and some things not so well. And, some cultures do some things better than others. That DOES NOT make one superior or inferior to another. I'm just pointing out the AMERICAN culture has proved to be better at creating innovation than those in China and India.
Fact is the "overnight rich" syndrome leads people from the west to make statements that they are the most innovative people in the world. In the ocean of inventions, the West is dwarfed by other civilizations. Saying one culture is more innovative than another is inherently racist!
I worked with a lot of H1Bs from China and India. They didn't look down trodden to me; they were young, healthy and didn't seem to be hurting very much!
However, I have met a lot of down trodden native born people who can't get jobs to feed their families and pay their mortgages because of displacement by H1Bs. What about them? I could say YOU shouldn't be posting things like that!!
The fact is all the products that made Gates and WinTel billions were invented by native Americans NOT by H1Bs. If you look at the title on this page it's Bill Gates and H1B. The question isn't do foreing born people contribute; its how do H1Bs contribute. You guys are trying to shift the debate to cultureal history.
Vinod Dham designed the Pentium processor. The Intel and Windows combine earned a lot of money for Bill! Vinod Dham was not a native. Only the Red Indians are native whose land was illegally taken over by gun totting Europeans who copied gun powder from Chinese when living conditions back home in Europe was unbearable and not wealth was present.
You got into the debate on why rest of the world was not as "innovative" as Americans, now you need to reply to posts on that regard.
Sure Shannon invented the USB because he came up with the basics, but Pingala and Panini cannot claim credit for computers even though they laid basics. Some yardstick this! Vinod Dham is the acknowledged chief designer of the Pentium and is not called the father of the Pentium for no reason. Fact is Indian brains went into it, I wonder why this had to happen, after all Indians are not as "innovative" as the Americans.
I'm not trying to diss Vinod Dham. Hes probably a smart man; but he was a product manager. By the time he started working on the Intel processsor, all the features has been developed and ongoing development was routine work. He didn't contribute much new technolgical art the the processor archtecture.
Yeah right, the guy who invented the processor had it all laid out nice and easy for him, all the basics were from India and China. Newton and Co had it easy coz all the basics were laid out nicely in India.
The point as , as you pointed out, everyone had the basic in 1968, but a native white guy in northern California was the one to put it all together and launch the moder computer revolution. You assertion that people from India should get preference in H1B because of vague work in mathematics 2K years ago seems at best weak. Its more of the 'what have you done lately'; since Europeans have had a better recent history in pulling all this stuff together by are we wasting time bringing in Indians?
The point here is not about H1Bs, its your assertion that Americans are more innovative than others. With about 10000 years of cultural, technical and soft power dominance an Indian or Chinese cannot be quiet at such ridiculous statements. Sooner or later one of them will come by and let the Americans know that they are at best mutts of different breeds suffering the Overnight Rich Rabies syndrome
I said American CULTURE is better at *TECHNOLOGICAL* innovation than the culture of China and India. The reason I use them is becuase they are the biggest user of H1B. It is also true of Ireland, Belgum, Australia, New Zeland, Brazil or almost any other country. The implied claim by Gates and his lobbyists is that these workers are superior to native born Americans which is a lie. No Foturne 500 company was founded by an H1B holder imported by 1990.
Whichever way you put it, saying some *culture* is better @ smthng than another culture is inherently racist. It is a joke that India and China which are the invention heavyweights in the world, are being compared to the West which is a new kid on the block and has onyl recently started contributing to cutting edge. Your comparing the "West" to India and China in innovation is a joke.
Culture is NOT race(biological heredity) dependent. People from many different races are born and live in the US. Chinese, Russian, German, Irish and Indian. The point is they come here permenatly then enculturate and become part of the large US culture keeping part of their own. H1Bs are not this way and is why they are not as innovative as second generation Americans.
There is NO American culture. What exists of it is but a crude vestige of tossed away European culture. No offence to mutts, but Americans are mutts of various EUROPEAN breeds. Outsiders find it easy to integrate into the American "culture" because, franky there is nothing much to the culture, if you can call it that. There is no one beating India, China, Babylonia and Egypt in innovation. We are, because of them.
It was not an issue when White immigrants jumped into the melting pot of peoples, but its when the non-Whites come in when the whole ruckus is created, isn't it? Its no surprise that the Europeans are snooty about lack of American culture, all the innovation produced by your country pale into significance when you consider that you have no distinguishable culture of your own and what is, is, a mutt's equivalent of way of living. Sorry, thats tough to gulp for someone from a country like India.
Your whole idea of innovation is centwered around last 200 years and fortune 500 companies. I dont blame you, given the fact that the so called culture of yours is only 300 years old. What I can not put up with is the very comment that somehow the West is better than India and China in innovation. THats a joke, seriously. One a one to one comparison of life changing inventions the West wud not even be in the race.
I've never said the Western Americna is better over all than any other culture. I've said that American culture is better at doing technological innovation based on the fact that ALL of the major technological innovations have occured since the start of the Industrial Revolution have been in the US and Europe. Every culture is optomized to do some things well and some things less well; America is just better at technology.
American "culture" is no way technically more innovative than any other culture. The only things the Americans are best in is in entertainment. The infrastructure for being present in US, its no wonder. Radio, television, Nuclear power stations, Thorium fuel cycle, rockets etc etc did not happen in the US or Europe. So your assertion that ALL of the majore technological innovations in last 200 years is misplaced in fact outright outrageous.
The metal around your home, the concept of school, university, urban cities, Algebra Trigionometry your kid studies, astronomy, surgery, astrology, rockets, radio and phones all have comes from India and China.
The template of a modern university came from the Greeks. If you have ever studied at one you would know that. All the fraternities have three letter Greek name - not Sandskrit.
Radio was invented by Tesla. Phones were invented by Bell. Modern rocktes were invented by VonBraun and Goddard. Algerbra and Trig came form the Arabs and Greek. Even in the ancient world there was a log of knowledge transfer. The bridge was the Great Library of Alexandria where people from all over the Old World shared knowledge. That was not in India!
Radio was invented by BOSE. Rockets were invented in India and China (naval missiles). Algebra and Trig came from India and the Arabs took it to the rest of the world.
Looks like Marconi used Bose's coherer and no credit was given LOL. Am not surprised. The undisputed fact, even by admission of IEEE circa 1998, is that Jagadish Chandra Bose successfully demonstrated the wireless transmission of electromagnetic waves—which eventually led to the development of radio in 1895. IEEE quite rightly recognized Bose by inducting him into its Wireless Hall of Fame.
LOL, if he was the inventor why did he use stuff built by Bose, shudnt it have been the other way around? As for sophistication I am sure IEEE is more sophisticated and informed than any other individual engineer/techie in the world.
What stuff? Can you give me a documented list of "stuff" that Marconi "borrowed" from Bose. The early history of radio had a lot of contributors including Bose. The Holy Grain of radio in the late 19th century was to develop practical radio telegraphy - and that what was attributed to Marconi and Braun when they got the Noble Prize for contributions to radio telegraphy. Bose did not send "information"; he just triggered an explosion.
That as per you, not as per IEEE. I have every reason to believe IEEE is more technically informed than you are. Coherer was something Marconi derived from Bose's work.
The IEEE is deparate to justify the H1B program and the mostly Indians who are coming over. The members are big corporations and universities that make money of peddling cheap labor H1Bs. My guess is that they are desprate to find some justification for the displacement of native residents by Indians and Bose is just the only example -and a lame one at that - of Indian tech innovation.
Thats right, and each and every one of them is a H1b supporter never failing to life the H1b banner on top of their head and cheer the H1Bs on. Now the US govt is complicit, the Corporations are, the IEEE is who else is left who is not guilty in your view. Dang, the H1b conspirators circle runs deep.
H1B is part of a billion dollar labor arbitrage system, that saves corporations billions in labor cost every year. MS, UCCC and Compete America bribe the politicians by telling us that native Americans are stupid and lazy. But, that era is over. Everyone knows that H1B is a bad thing; they cannot take Gates money and justifiy it any longer.
If all of what you say is true then there would have been spontaneous outbursts by the common man in US in the fashion of the anti-Iraq war protests. The protests were against the strongest parts of the establishment gng to show the world hw functional US democracy is. Smthng to be proud about. That it has nt happened is something for you to think abt before saying such things as "everyone knows it is wrong".
There has been; two years ago a huge guest worker job immigration was defeated by popular outcry - the protests are significant. America isn't a parlimentary democracy where a cabinate minister has wide discrestion on how to implemetn immigration policy. Changing H1B requires passing legislation in both houses and getting the president to sign it. Corporate lobbyists pay a lot of money to politicians to keep the program going.
I think I made the scale clear when I referred to the Iraq war protests. No protest of that order was seen, let alone at least half its size. Spontaneity and Intent missing, I dont see why such protests happen often on the streets of new york or Washington calling for the abolition of the "evil" H1B. If it is true that ur govt can indeed be manipulated so easily by vested interests, then u probably deserve to have such "evil" H1b system in place. Here in India we revoke things democratically.
You are seeing the Iraq war protests through the distorted eye of the European media. Protests against the Iraq war are small, sporadic and not very extensive here in the US. The war is not popular and most Americans don't like it; but they are not going to the streets in droves to protest it like you say. The war brings jobs and money into the economy so it is tolerated but not liked.
Errr... I was in the States when the protests happened, I know its scale. I also know about the Vietnam war protests. The thing is that when it comes to a cause the Americans are as good as any other democracy worth its salt in terms of rallying behind it. The war is bleeding the US economy with more deficit which will need to be paid for generations to come. I still feel that come post 2020, no one will buy US treasuries without extracitng their pound of flesh.
I've lived in the US all my life, I can tell you that the war protests look big in the media but compared to the 300M people hear - protesters are a minority. Most protesting is in email, letters faxes and phone calls and talk radio!
Vietnam was before my time - I cannot comment on it. I think most historians think Vietnam was largley and economic boondoggle to keep the US economy going after WWII. The protests were wide spread and probably justified. But, I just don't see the Iraq war have the same kind of dis-approval.
You cant escape from the Vietnam question by saying it was before your time. Vietnam and Iraq protests were the spontaneous reaction of American (and world) public to a wrong policy of the US govt. Its called democracy. You have yet to explain why such spontaneous mass protests are not coming forth for the conspiratorial h1b program that you so claim.
@wowyogi The US economy is a WAR economy. WWII lifted the US out of the Great Depression and the US as been in a continuous state of war since 1941 because it keeps the US economy going. Vietnam was perceived as largely an economic boondoggle and was unpopular as more and more people dies with out resolving the conflict. Although, look at in a similar manner, I just don't see "spontaneous" protests of the order of Vietnam about it. To most the attached on 9/11 seemed to justify involvedment.
ur assertion is seriously flawed. the US economy already had the cold war missile build up to more than drain and squander resources on and the gold standard for the dollar was already under question. The US least wanted a crisis at this time. Communism HAD TO be stopped and US was forced into the conflict. The US dint need the Vietnam conflict to ride its mil-industrial complex on. I also delve on was history so I know the facts. 9/11 was justified, Vietnam and Iraq werent!
As I've pointed out, the society and government of the US is VERY different form India. The US is not a parlimentary democracy with a prime minister and cabinates which adminster policy like guest workers. Change does not come about by protests or revolutions - its comes through lobbying of special interests like corporations.
I have seen how Greenspan was demolished by people's representatives in senate hearings. It doesnt get more direct a democracy than that. Presidential or Parliamentary, the people's voice when raised in the right pitch gets the message across. US IT workers r bcmng like Pakistan of late, raising conspiracy theories to blame the "other" when own house is nt in order. Sad.
Your assertion that H1B must be popular because you don't see violent protests against on the evening news in India is hardly proof that it is popular and beneficial in the views of most Americans. In America, we quietly debate such things in our homes, schools and in public forums. Two years ago the immigration lobby tried to force a huge immigration bill on us here, the protests were enormous and it was defeated. You seem to ignore that - our protests are email, letter and phone calls.
I dont see how the Vietnam or the Iraq war was quietly protested. The Civil war was no quiet living room conversation. When it comes to them, Americans shed their individualistic mindset and rally behind a cause. There is a reason why American revolution is thought in our Indian classrooms along with our own and the French one. H1B is a bogey for the US IT worker to justify their lack of competence, over-pay and outright fear.
Our society is evolving like any other and there are problems in our Constitution, specifically, the Supreme Court has equated giving money to politicians with the right of free speech. This has resulted in the ability of special interests with money like Bill Gates, Compete America and US Chamber of Commerce to suppress the truth about the destructiveness of H1B. But, our message has finally gotten through. Its over!
When the big stimulus bill was passed last year, it included some of the restrictions on H1B - so in part it has passed. Right now with unemployment at 17%, its unlike that any type of immigration bill we be debated in the US, but when it does, very like most or part of the H1B Visa Fraud Bill will be part of it.
I still see the floodgates open for H1B. Surely such a evil fascist program must have been sent to gitmo by now? The nominal measures you see here and there are for appeasement at best and when the ledger books start hurting for the company by hiring incompetent, lazy native workers the hard-working Indians/Chinese are brought right back. Speculation at best, that of the H1b bogey being sealed and tossed away.
Within the last 5 years that have been 4 attempst to raise the H1B cap - all have failed. In the past it was a sure thing, but not any more. Its nearly impossible for the politicains to defend H1B anymore because is pretty been demonstrated to be a cheap labor program that doesn't bring in quality people.
Trivial Failed attempts to raise the cap cannot be seen as signs of success given that there is no overwhelming street level protests to do away with such a "evil cheap labour" program. The day the H1B is fully scrapped I will agree with you that there has been success!
US is a representative democracy through its elected officials. There have been four attempts to raise the H1B cap in the last five years - each has failed. The fact that despite millions of dollars spent by Gates to get it lifted have had no effect, shows that the programs has only erroding support among law makers.
Please prove by providing a source for your BOGUS CLAIMS on BILL GATES. I expect you to weasel around from answering my question to you on providing a source for Bill Gates saying that foreign workers r more innovative than natives. You are yet to answer that. Keep dancing around that question! Your claim on failure of raising caps is analogous to saying that US won the war in Vietnam because Washington DC was nt nuked. Only the cap raise attemptes were stopped nt the whole h1b program.
Seach for any of his US Contressional testimonies; you are righ, he doesnt come out and say it - he can't because its not true - but he implies it quite clearly.
So you are basing your whole argument on some misinterpreted notional interpretation of yours while there clearly exists no evidence of him having ever said such stuff? Please this is called character assassination. You have already called ur nation a kleptocracy and now you have to bring down BG as well? There is a limit to how low you can stoop down to sustain an argument
@wowyogi I admire BG very much; he's a significant player in technology. However, on H1B he is just towing the line of corporate that needs cheap labor and international labor arbitrage for their bottom line.
Problem: if they hire a local candidate, it would have created the SAME number of jobs. These alleged "jobs" are NOT a result of the candidate being H1B but an artifact of just having the job in the first place.
@linuxguru1968 The real problem is that there no native folks to go around for hiring. If there had been enough native workers to go around US would never have had to bring in the h1b. That my friend is facts for you.
@wowyogi Every study that has been done by unbiased groups finds that H1Bs are paid less than native born worker. Its a cheap lobor program. When managment says, "we cannot find a worker" they are not including the said disclaimer "at a wage and work level I am willing to hire at." I'll send you Ron Hiras video again.
Sorry, I've been blogging on this stuff for so long, I don't remember what I've said, can you find it and cut-and-paste it here? Gates has state that there is a "desparate labor shortage in STEM" and that there just aren't enough "qualified candidates" to fill the slots at his company - even thought it just did its first ever lay-off.
1. Gates and his lobbyists are claiming that modern tech was invented by H1Bs which is not true.
2. Bill Gates and his lobbyist are claiming that H1Bs are been instrumental in the direct development of modern computer and telecommunication technology
They are claiming that H1Bs have founded Fortune 500 companies that employ millions and generated billions in revenue - that is not true. They are implying that foreign born people particularly H1Bs have done this. That is not true.
They have - but largely as cheap labor. Like I've pointed out H1Bs - from almost everywhere - have had little effect in innovation except as cheap labor.
The creator of facebook was an Indian and was a H1B holder. Too bad he was sent off to Canada due to local visa restrictions. Another example of how US's selfish visa regulation are driving away talent.
No. Mark Zuckerberg founded Facebook - he was born here and was a college dropout like Gates, Ellison and Jobs. What was the H1B who you CLAIM founded Facebook?
Your not making sense, by definitions EM waves dont travel down wires they travel interspacially through some kind of higher interdimensional field of some sort.
Errr....he pioneered the study of millimeter waves and applied it practically for a demo of practical wireless comunication. If you consider communication as two souls sitting on each side discussing pleasantries or singing rhymes, sorry thats trivializing communication. Remote Control gun, wow, at his time, that was cutting edge. wonder why that dint come from the most technically innovative culture,hmmm...
Bose rang a bell with EM waves; he didn't send information. His demo did not demonstrate telegraphy or voice. Thats not to say it was not important; but you haven't shown that it was a direct line to the invention of BROADCAST RADIO.
The embedded signals in the EM waves was INFORMATION. Information need not be only aural and pertinent to human interpretation. You have a narrow mandate for some technical terms. Where did I say that Bose was the inventor of broadcast radio? Bose's work, as acknowledged by IEEE was of direct consequence to the development of broadcast radio.
Shannon define information as "a message that resolves uncertainlty". Bose demo to ring a bell or fire a gun or what ever was NOT a practical demonstration of bi-direction information transfer like the Marconi trans-atlantic telegraphy demonstration that got him and Braun the Noble Prize.
errrr...thats some definition for a word. I see that definitions of words such as information, computer, modern, the west are all changed as per convenience to suit the discussion. Very well, my point is that the very radio wave is an information understood by the receiver to get something done. Its a evry good practical demonstration of radio technology. Kudos to Bose for pioneering it and kudos for the IEEE in recognizing it.
I don't think anyone creditied Claude Shannon with INVENTING USB. His PHD codified digital circuit design and his Theory of Communication lead to the engineering of transmitting information via varios mediums. USB was a direct result of his work with other building on it within a few years.
Actually you were the one to quickly diss the invention of USB by and Indian saying that he built on the work of Claude Shannon but you have qualms acception that Bose's work led to the broadcast radio. Double standards at their best.
The concept of digital signalling on wires was a direct result of Shannon and Tukeys work at Bell labs in the late 1940s - IDE, firewire, USB and IEEE 802.3 or even ATM, DSL - all signalling technology is directly traced to their patents. Some Indian engineers worked on USB but by the time they did, the science of digital logic design and protocols was routine work - they didn't really invent anything new.
No, they put to use in practical terms theoretical works, though not directly related, conjured up by others. the USB is a world hit. If the USB can be attributed to Shannon, then almost all "modern" electronic innovations can be credited to the ancient Indians/Chinese/Egyptians. Funny how different yardsticks work eh?
None of these ancient people worked at Bell Labs in the late 1940s. None of these cultures laid telephone lines. If you could show me an ancient text that shows how to make a NAND gate, might have a point. But, I've never seen any indication of anything like that except from the ancient astronaut lunatic fringe.
These cultures were flying planes in 1894 and were inventing radio communication in early 19th century. Colour photography first came from Russia. To mention that it is a modern technology only if they work in some cubicle in Bell Labs is outright insane!
USB was desinged to compete with Apple/Mac Firewire except to work with the more ubiquitous Wintel PC platform. It took two generations(2.0)to reach the same speed as Firewire. I really don't see much of a difference between the two. USB is just a "clean room" reverse engineering job on Firewire - pretty routine work; not a tangent into a new technology.
Does not matter it came from Indian brains. I dont see why the "most technologically" innovative people dint invent it in the first place. The point is that modern innovation kept coming from Indians, the Chinese etc.
In the late 1940s, Shannon, Tuckey and others build and demonstrated the regenerative transmitter that converted analog to digital and back that was used in long distance phone systems almost immediately - that was the ground work of wired digital communications. You cannot say that about Bose demo; he didnt send telegraphy or voice.
Wired, Wired! Bose pioneerd wireless over millimeter waves and gave the first practical demo of using radio waves for a useful purpose. The first satellite Sputnik really was nothing, as per your logic, after all it did not, transmit or receive communications signals for practical real world use. Maybe the Soviets shud have sent the inventor of the Sputnik to the Gulags or to Gitmo.
I never claimed that Sputnik was a demo for broadcast radio. If was a demo of how to orbit an artificial satillite. Bose may have demonstrate a kind of practical use of radio waves, but he didn't demo broadcast radio. You can call him the father of EM bell ringing but not the father of broadcast radio.
If you note clearly and pay attention, the IEEE dint declare him the father of broadcast or any other radio. It declared him the father of radio. He pioneered the first successful use of wireless signals to achieve something. Radio and broadcast radio are two different things. Ask the kid who flies a radio controlled plane next door, he wud be able to tell you.
By the 1990s, when USB was developed Firewire was already the standard. USB was just a reverse engineered version for WinTel to try to compete with Apple/Mac. The developers of USB Indian or otherwise just didnt invent anything new.
I'm not trying to diss Bose or say that he wasn't a smart man. But, his demo wasn't much different that what other experimenters where doing; he didn't send information. During the first half of the century there was multi-million dollar patent dispute over who invented broadcast radio; the US patent office determined that that was Tesla.
Bose dint go to the US patent office so they obviously gave it to Tesla or whoever else disputed it. If Bose had gotten involved it wud have been a different matter.
The credit for the invention of broadcast radio in the early 20th century was a lot like the Microsoft Antitrust case 100 years later. It was a huge growth market worth millions and companies like RCA were trying to exploit it. To do that they had to secure a patent on the tecnology so there was decades of litigation over who did what first and whos patent demonstrated what. A lot of people contributed and Bose NEVER demonstarted practical radio telegraphy or voice broadcast.
There is no evidence that Bose demo was a direct ancestor to broadcase radio. People all over including Marconi, Tesla and probably Edison where doing the same kind of stuff. The break through was the invention of electronic tubes by De Forrest and diodes by Guthrie and Edison.
Yes he was and the IEEE has acknowledged it,. Between ur word and that of the largest body of engineers in the world, I will take the word of IEEE while u resort to ad hominem attacks on its reputation.
The IEEE is a professional organization and has not legislative or legal powers. What ever they said, I'm sure they didn't credit Bose with the invention of broadcast radio.
Sir J.C. Bose's pioneering works in quasi-optic millimeter wave research in Calcutta, India about 100 years back during 1890s are highlighted. He developed an elegant millimeter wave spark transmitter, self recovering coherer detector, wire grid polariser, cylindrical diffraction grating, dielectric lens and prism, rectangular waveguide, horn antenna and microwave absorber, for the studies of reflection
refraction, absorption and polarisation of millimeter waves and its application to wireless remote control for firing a gun. All these pioneering activities indicate that he was well ahead of his time and prompted us to call him the father of Radio Science
NONE of his stuff has anything to do with modern computing and any direct way. He triggered a gun by radio waves; he never sent voice or telegraph information via EM waves. Calling him the fater of Radio Science is just not accurate; Hertz and Maxwell discoverd EM radiation and did all of the imporant mathematics. Tesla and Marconi created the first demo that send telegraph and voice via EM waves. Bose didn't. He was just one small contributor.
Whoa, why drag in computers when we r discussing wireless communications which, as per the LARGEST body of engineers in the world, has been credited to Bose. Bose demonstrated practical wireless communication before Marconi and Marconi used some of the equipment BUILT BY BOSE. Probably Bose shud have raised a plagiarism case, but the poor man was not into chest beatign and claiming hw he was superior to all else just bcoz he came up with some electrical eqpmt.
funny to say, everybody is against bill gates... and guess what... bill is a billionaire, everybody, is poor.... witch crowd should I follow??? mmm??? kind of hard to decide... I wanna be rich, but I can't since the rich belong to the other side... ummm? OK, how about if I try their way?? maybe I have a chance instead of been against them... by the way, CNN make most of their money in other countries, I find this video hypocrite... CNN.com see it your self.
niconite 2 months ago
So what about the free market? Has America stopped being a capitalist economy? Is there going to be a national socialist movement in the United States? The new liberal policies are funny indeed!!!
SHINTOMATHEW2000 3 months ago
USA going to hell in a hand basket slowly but surely. Outsourcing our labor is devaluing every thing, trade deficit, innovation etc etc etc..Corp America will ruin this great land mark my words. Now they are dead ass wrong on the visa, the workers brought over here are paid 20 - 50% more than us but the Indian companies employing them are not and I know because we do it. The Indians that attain management positions on our soil will not hire Americans either. Sad, hell in a hand basket......
sniffy45 1 year ago
Gates and those in favor of H1B visas are focused on skimming the spread between contracted wages and actual wages. These anti-labor, anti-American TRAITORS are devaluing the very foundations or fair wages, terms and conditions and good faith bargaining that it took two hundred years to establish. If I seriously thought that I could kill Bill Gates and redestribute his fortune to the brilliant individuals and corporations he destroyed building his monopoly, I would happily do so.
LvnAction 1 year ago
This is confusing as hell. While its not surprising that large companies will lie about the reason for H1B's, why do jobs in IT and whatnot keep getting trumped up by various media as "hot career fields" to get into?
toughbutfair32 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
CHEAP LABOUR? its not mexican or chinese Labour Fuckers, We Use Brains and you guyz will know the value of it when some day WellsFargo or BOA softwares go blank and you guyz will come crying to so called CHEAP LABOUR for help..... American are so Dumb that they dont even see that we have rulled world for more than 5000 Years....
jadhavkapil 1 year ago
most of these indians wind up in dunkin donuts or gas stations working for min wage and sucking up wefare, food stamps and section 8 housing. they do low or mid level jobs for half the pay.
Godzilla1909 1 year ago
Bill Gates = Joseph Goebbels
SonicArchives 1 year ago
jobs will be outsourced. Business are done for profits not for charity. New technology needs to be invented. At present the old technology has gone to china and energy harvesting systems would remain for next few years in usa.
engineer7311 1 year ago
>> New technology needs to be invented.
Yes, but the problem is that all that OLD technology was INVENTED here in the US by mostly native born people. Today because of H1B, these type of people simply are NOT going into STEM - the native born best and brightest brain drain problem.
linuxguru1968 1 year ago
We need to stop this H1-B bullshit now!
buckwheat40 2 years ago
@linuxguru1968
Why are many of your recent posts being marked as spam and by whom? Look into it, I am marking your recent posts as not spam. I suspect foul play.
wowyogi 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
>> many of your recent posts being
>> marked as spam
Its called censorship; people cannot refute my ideas, so they attempt to supress them. This is another strength of American culture that is missing in China - we tolerate the speech of people even if we disagree.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
With you on the freedom of speech. Parts of India have had democracy for thousands of years (read about the first world democratic republics in India). Freedom of speech is ingrained in us. China is a lost cause. Another great civ gone down the drain. That is what thrills me abt India, it is millenia old but has still retained its old traditions and religions whilst still embracing modernity. Sign. Blessed am I to be born in this great country :-)
wowyogi 2 years ago
>> Sign. Blessed am I to be born in this
>> great country :-)
Yes, it is. But, it still has a 19th century infrastructure. It needs to stop worrying about BS like IT and H1Bs and work on making real jobs for its own citizens by developing its own physical infrastructure.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
The 90s were when the Politicians woke up to the need for infrastructure. Until then they were drunk on Communist visions of greatness which were impractical. Every ind.revolution needs a source of funds. IT and Bio Tech are fueling India's capital needs, its no wonder that India already is in the top 10 list of manufcaturers and promises to outstrip even China's growth. IT is India's ladder to riches so be it.
wowyogi 2 years ago
>> IT is India's ladder to riches so be it.
India's IT is based on US financials, that era is over. IT is dead. India ought to be concentrating of physical infrastructure to life it out of the 19th century. Its real jobs not bogus money laundering slots.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
India is concentrating significantly on physical infrastructure so much so that every time I drive on the nation's highways I am reminded of I-85 and I-40. Travel times between most cities have been cut down by almost 50%. IT is services and in a maturing economy services play a bigger part than manufacturing. India has done well in moving up the value ladder in IT services. From low grade application support in the 90's to full cycle microprocessor development. There is good progress.
wowyogi 2 years ago
IT can never provide the jobs and wealth that India needs, that can only come from development of infrastructure, jobs, unions and industries - things that build a middle class. The US couldn't outsource enough jobs to India to even make a dent in umemployment there as the population grows. India sould stop garbaging out on IT - like Opium - forget IT and Bill Gates - and develop its own markets - not depend on Europe and America.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Yes it can. NASSCOM predictions for IT jobs has been right on and never missed the target. The IT industry brings in close to 100 billion dollars into the Indian economy every year. Thanks to it, other sectors like bio tech and manufacturing have shot up due to increased demand. Your assertion that IT is not useful to India is blatantly incorrect, the facts speak otherwise.
wowyogi 1 year ago
@wowyogi Thats not what I have heard - I've heard that the financial meltdown and the collapse of the US financail markets has reduce the need to Indian IT services dramatically resulting in loss of demand. Automation of IT processes will further erode the need for human IT labor.
linuxguru1968 1 year ago
I live and speak from India and I am very much in IT so I am in the know of what is happening. As I type this I have 6 offers for jobs in my hand, am having a tough time on which one I need to pick. Its open season here. Only 50% of our exports are from US and a recession in US has had close to a zero impact on our overall growth. Sure there was a hiccup but again no one really noticed its impact if any.
wowyogi 1 year ago
If you compare the domestic ecnonomy of India and CHina you will be surprised to know that exports contribute only 20% to India's GDP. China's is almost 80%. India's vast domestic market has helped it tide past the economic crisis and even ended up buying tonnes of gold, the largest gold purchase ever.
wowyogi 2 years ago
Here's more western aping of Indian techniques,
The medical works of both Sushruta and Charak were translated into Arabic language during the Abbasid Caliphate (750 AD).[8] These Arabic works made their way into Europe via intermediaries.[8] In Italy the Branca family of Sicily and Gaspare Tagliacozzi (Bologna) became familiar with the techniques of Sushruta.[8]
wowyogi 2 years ago
Joseph Constantine Carpue spent 20 years in India studying local plastic surgery methods.[9] Carpue was able to perform the first major rhinoplasty in the western world by 1815.[10] Instruments described in the Sushruta Samhita were further modified in the Western World.[10]
wowyogi 2 years ago
Yes, and the first heart transplant was performed by a white man in South Africa. Sterile technique was invented in Euorpe and America. So? Even if they were invented in India - they were dramatically improved by Europeans - which proves my point!
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
No, this contradicts your point, goes to show that even in the last 200 years innovation kept pouring out of India and the non-Western parts of the world.
wowyogi 2 years ago
>> innovation kept pouring out of India
>> and the non-Western parts of the
>> world
Like what? What tangible technological artifact laying around the typical Americans household was INVENTED in India? Please post a list.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Already have some 10 times. Please refer to that.
wowyogi 2 years ago
What's that got to do with electronic computers and H1B? I've said that there has been a lot of knowledge transfer in the ancient world. Caucasian people brought advance metal and weaving technology to China. And, a lot of things like silk, gunpowder and noodles came to Euorpe from there. And, knowlege from India can to Europe and vise versa. The point is that electronic computers and telecommunications was invented in Europe and America.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Goes to show that Indians and Chinese kept pouring put innovation even at their lowest ebb of last 200 years while the West only contributed in last 200 years. Pooof, there goes your point of the west being the most technologically innovative!
wowyogi 2 years ago
No modern technology industry was invented in China or India - that's proof that America and Euorpe ARE more technologically innovative that China or India.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
So back to saying that no modern technology was invented in India and China? LOL. Modern steel making process was taken from India while Europe still imported steel during the early phases on ind revolution. Radio, Ultra modern new material fuel cycles, test tube babies and lots more have come from India and China. India and China ARE the world's pre-emient civs technically and culturally while the European and American mutts are new kids on the block with a attitude problem.
wowyogi 2 years ago
To have the last word. Sweet ....
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
The dreams, they a keep coming these dreams, oh dreams...oh dreams....
wowyogi 2 years ago
Everytime your snake oil theories of how Western innovation is better than Eastern innovation is cut down to size by facts presented to you, you run around crying foul and wish to take back the discussion to the H1b issue. No one here cares two hoots abt the H1b, its your weird assertion that somehow the cyulture-less West is more technically innovative than India and CHina.
wowyogi 2 years ago
As far as China is concern, Cacasian mummies dated 2-3K years BC found in Western China show advanded weaving and smelting technicques that were superior to those in China at the time. The work of Victor Meyer has shown that innovations coming east from the West may have been responsible for jump starting technological development in China at a time when it was still largely multicultural and aborinal. Gunpowder might actually have been invented in the West.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Dont go by conjectures, go by facts. Nothing conclusive or earth shattering has come from the Mummies and Caucasians are not the WEST.
wowyogi 2 years ago
The first people to come up with alphabet were the Phoenicians who were not from the WEST. The Romans copied their alphabet from the Phoenicians just as they copied their numerals from the Egyptians. Funny isnt it, you copy all from the non-Westerners, but dont want them in your country?
wowyogi 2 years ago
Your assertion that Phoeneicans and Egyptians were not part of the "WEST" is only partly correct. Most historians consider "the West" to be any place "west" of the Caucasus Mountains. The biggiest users of H1B aren't Egyptians or the Middle East. countries, its India. America imports 1.4M new residents EACH year; we just have problems with cheap labor programs that bring in people largely from China or India.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
THe term West by itself is racist, no one has ever defined it clearly let alone historians. All Anglo Saxon/Teuton/Nordic and Gaullishnations are considered the West. Which is why Eastern Europe doesnt make it in the West. White on White racism, you see. While the American youth without education sit in bars spending fake money printed by the govt, smart industrious ppl from India and China make up for the brains part. Too bad, the most innovative ppl have to survive on foreign brains.
wowyogi 2 years ago
Sweet! To have the last word ......
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Keep dreaming.
wowyogi 2 years ago
>> Americans care so much about a few
>> hundred thousand H1Bs and L1Bs
>> why doesnt Obama say so publicly.
Obama is a front; he has denied a worker shortage; only aknowleged a skill shortage. How ever, with the high unemployment that argument no longer is valid.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Same parity? Haha ! Seek my friend and you will find the reasons!
- It was not without reason that thousands of ships sailed to find a way to india! Heck your very country was found by accident in a voyage set out to find India
Now why would they risk life and limb for that? What does it tell about the state of Europe in the middle ages?
- Ever heard of William Digby! The case of loot and the the renaissance? Fat chance of a co-incidence!!!
And Modern science? What is modern?
xferspace 2 years ago
@xferspace
Actually, Columbus was looking for a way to "the East" not just India - principally the spices of China. When he landed in the New World the native resembled "Indians" and unfortunately the name stuck. Its joke among Native Americans today that they were lucky he wasn't "looking for Turkey"!
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
you shouldn't be posting stuff like this.
jjamwal 2 years ago
WRONG: Columbus was looking for a way to India!
_Your_ second sentence here contradicts your first !!
And I dont think you understand what I am telling you. Let me try again: Innovation/Inventions rely on many factors: need, environment , economic climate _and_ history.
To state that _your_ "modern" inventions could have taken place independently is naieve at best, ignorant at the most.
I guess you are seeing the visible end of the spectrum only, if you know what I mean!
xferspace 2 years ago
>> Columbus was looking for a way to
>> India
He was looking for a alternative route for the spice route used from Euorpe to China. India was more accessible being closer to Euorpe. The drive was to get a more direct route to China or "The East".
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
So why did he name the natives of the land Indians then?
I am not sure if you would succeed convincing even middle school students with your theory, let alone the rest of the world!
From your arguments in the comments section, I do not think you have backed yourself up with even basic knowledge of science or history which makes you unqualified to comment on this!
A frog in a well. You will be ignored!
xferspace 2 years ago
When columbus encountered the natives in the Carribean, they resembled people from India - they obviously didn't look Chinese. He must have assumed that he hit India first. But, his intention was to get direct access to lucrative spice markets in China.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
>> Innovation/Inventions rely on many
>> factors
Absolutely, its a combined knowlege base passed up through history from all peoples in the world. The point is that the confluence of these factors that created modern tech was in Euorp and more importantly in America. All the factor came together here in the US and not in China or India. And, the unansered question is stil why did they get invented here and NOT in China or India.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
@xferspace
Nothing in your post has anything to do with H1Bs. The fact that colonialism was brutal has NOTHING to do with the fact that with almost 10K years of history between them ALL of the major technological innovations in the last 200 years have been made by largely Europeans and Americans. So why give preference for H1B to people from countries that have no proven record in modern technology?
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
@linuxguru
you continue to say that modern electronics and computers are the best thing that happened to humanity. Since some engineers/scientists in US developed that tech, US is the greatest and most innovative place on earth.
Modern numerology and astronomy originated and developed in India and was spread by pre-islamic Arabs.Try making a single computer or any digital tech by leaving out mathematical theorems of non-western origin and using your own Roman numerals.
jjamwal 2 years ago
China invented gunpowder and Indians had been using explosives (limited) that Europeans copied and used to massacre native Asian, African and native American people.
Tipu Sultan from India pioneered the use of rockets, your NASA acknowledges this fact
Modern numerology and astronomy originated and developed in India and was spread by Arabs. Seems strange discussing something like with somebody who says that noodles and paper are most significant Chinese inventions in their homes :))
jjamwal 2 years ago
If you around the typical Americans home and look for the things INVENTED in China or India you will find only three: gunpowder, noodles and paper. They are thousands of years old; everything else is recent and INVENT in the US. If there are some old mummies that need H1Bs I'll be happy to sponsor them!
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
The toilet, the sewage system, the phone in your home, wireless sets in you are a ham operator, the television, the electricity from the nuclear power stations, the jeans cloth, I can go on and on. The thing is you dont seem to take note of them and keep focusing inventions on electronics of the last 200 years and only those in your household. Sad!
wowyogi 2 years ago
>> keep focusing inventions on
>> electronics of the last 200 years
Its not me; its Bill Gates and his lobbyist who insist on lying to the public that H1Bs have been important in modern technology. I'm just pointing out that he is wrong and that H1Bs have had no important contributions to modern tech and that China and India historicall have not produced any important innovations that would justify them displacing native born Americans in jobs.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
As wowyogi has been saying it for months, your sense of superiority is entirely misplaced.European, Indian, Chinese, Mayan ..every civilization had it;s crests and troughs and each one had it's glorious moments like you had since late 19th century till shall i say early 20th century? Your beef with H1B visa is understandable but considering that your beloved US itself is a country of immigrants and what your founding fathers wrote about sheltering downtrodden people, you shouldn't be posting st
jjamwal 2 years ago
Where have I said one biological race was superior or inferios to another?
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Culture evolution is like biological evolution. Culture at a give time and place is optimized to doing some things very well and some things not so well. And, some cultures do some things better than others. That DOES NOT make one superior or inferior to another. I'm just pointing out the AMERICAN culture has proved to be better at creating innovation than those in China and India.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Fact is the "overnight rich" syndrome leads people from the west to make statements that they are the most innovative people in the world. In the ocean of inventions, the West is dwarfed by other civilizations. Saying one culture is more innovative than another is inherently racist!
wowyogi 2 years ago
>> Saying one culture is more innovative
>> than another is inherently racist!
Semanticlly incorrect. Biological heredity has nothing to do with culture. Culture is learned behavior and is not transmitted by DNA.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
The ulterior motive is there for all to see, semantics don't matter!
wowyogi 2 years ago
>> that they are the most innovative
>> people in the world
I said TECNOLOGICAL innovation; all cultures are innovative; its just American culture is unquely innovative in scientific innovation.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
>> US itself is a country of immigrants
Yes, its a country of immigrants BUT NOT of H1Bs. H1Bs are not immigrants they are guest worker or NIVs(None Immigrant Visa Holders.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
>> about sheltering downtrodden people,
I worked with a lot of H1Bs from China and India. They didn't look down trodden to me; they were young, healthy and didn't seem to be hurting very much!
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
>> downtrodden people
However, I have met a lot of down trodden native born people who can't get jobs to feed their families and pay their mortgages because of displacement by H1Bs. What about them? I could say YOU shouldn't be posting things like that!!
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Please....these half baked ideas show you in poor light! I suggest you read "The Discoverers" ..a book about technology and history!
xferspace 2 years ago
The fact is all the products that made Gates and WinTel billions were invented by native Americans NOT by H1Bs. If you look at the title on this page it's Bill Gates and H1B. The question isn't do foreing born people contribute; its how do H1Bs contribute. You guys are trying to shift the debate to cultureal history.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Vinod Dham designed the Pentium processor. The Intel and Windows combine earned a lot of money for Bill! Vinod Dham was not a native. Only the Red Indians are native whose land was illegally taken over by gun totting Europeans who copied gun powder from Chinese when living conditions back home in Europe was unbearable and not wealth was present.
You got into the debate on why rest of the world was not as "innovative" as Americans, now you need to reply to posts on that regard.
wowyogi 2 years ago
>> Vinod Dham designed the Pentium
>> processor
No he didn't. He was one of many engineers working on the continuing development of the Intel processor that was invented by Ted Hoff in 1968.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Sure Shannon invented the USB because he came up with the basics, but Pingala and Panini cannot claim credit for computers even though they laid basics. Some yardstick this! Vinod Dham is the acknowledged chief designer of the Pentium and is not called the father of the Pentium for no reason. Fact is Indian brains went into it, I wonder why this had to happen, after all Indians are not as "innovative" as the Americans.
wowyogi 2 years ago
I'm not trying to diss Vinod Dham. Hes probably a smart man; but he was a product manager. By the time he started working on the Intel processsor, all the features has been developed and ongoing development was routine work. He didn't contribute much new technolgical art the the processor archtecture.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Yeah right, the guy who invented the processor had it all laid out nice and easy for him, all the basics were from India and China. Newton and Co had it easy coz all the basics were laid out nicely in India.
wowyogi 2 years ago
The point as , as you pointed out, everyone had the basic in 1968, but a native white guy in northern California was the one to put it all together and launch the moder computer revolution. You assertion that people from India should get preference in H1B because of vague work in mathematics 2K years ago seems at best weak. Its more of the 'what have you done lately'; since Europeans have had a better recent history in pulling all this stuff together by are we wasting time bringing in Indians?
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
The point here is not about H1Bs, its your assertion that Americans are more innovative than others. With about 10000 years of cultural, technical and soft power dominance an Indian or Chinese cannot be quiet at such ridiculous statements. Sooner or later one of them will come by and let the Americans know that they are at best mutts of different breeds suffering the Overnight Rich Rabies syndrome
wowyogi 2 years ago
I said American CULTURE is better at *TECHNOLOGICAL* innovation than the culture of China and India. The reason I use them is becuase they are the biggest user of H1B. It is also true of Ireland, Belgum, Australia, New Zeland, Brazil or almost any other country. The implied claim by Gates and his lobbyists is that these workers are superior to native born Americans which is a lie. No Foturne 500 company was founded by an H1B holder imported by 1990.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Whichever way you put it, saying some *culture* is better @ smthng than another culture is inherently racist. It is a joke that India and China which are the invention heavyweights in the world, are being compared to the West which is a new kid on the block and has onyl recently started contributing to cutting edge. Your comparing the "West" to India and China in innovation is a joke.
wowyogi 2 years ago
Culture is NOT race(biological heredity) dependent. People from many different races are born and live in the US. Chinese, Russian, German, Irish and Indian. The point is they come here permenatly then enculturate and become part of the large US culture keeping part of their own. H1Bs are not this way and is why they are not as innovative as second generation Americans.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
There is NO American culture. What exists of it is but a crude vestige of tossed away European culture. No offence to mutts, but Americans are mutts of various EUROPEAN breeds. Outsiders find it easy to integrate into the American "culture" because, franky there is nothing much to the culture, if you can call it that. There is no one beating India, China, Babylonia and Egypt in innovation. We are, because of them.
wowyogi 2 years ago
>> What exists of it is but a crude vestige
>> of tossed away European culture.
Thats right is called a melting pot - which H1Bs doesn't have much to do with. Except to overstay their visa and become illegal.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
It was not an issue when White immigrants jumped into the melting pot of peoples, but its when the non-Whites come in when the whole ruckus is created, isn't it? Its no surprise that the Europeans are snooty about lack of American culture, all the innovation produced by your country pale into significance when you consider that you have no distinguishable culture of your own and what is, is, a mutt's equivalent of way of living. Sorry, thats tough to gulp for someone from a country like India.
wowyogi 2 years ago
Your whole idea of innovation is centwered around last 200 years and fortune 500 companies. I dont blame you, given the fact that the so called culture of yours is only 300 years old. What I can not put up with is the very comment that somehow the West is better than India and China in innovation. THats a joke, seriously. One a one to one comparison of life changing inventions the West wud not even be in the race.
wowyogi 2 years ago
I've never said the Western Americna is better over all than any other culture. I've said that American culture is better at doing technological innovation based on the fact that ALL of the major technological innovations have occured since the start of the Industrial Revolution have been in the US and Europe. Every culture is optomized to do some things well and some things less well; America is just better at technology.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
American "culture" is no way technically more innovative than any other culture. The only things the Americans are best in is in entertainment. The infrastructure for being present in US, its no wonder. Radio, television, Nuclear power stations, Thorium fuel cycle, rockets etc etc did not happen in the US or Europe. So your assertion that ALL of the majore technological innovations in last 200 years is misplaced in fact outright outrageous.
wowyogi 2 years ago
>> American "culture" is no way
>> technically more innovative than any
>> other culture.
Name me a technological artifact laying around the typical Americans house that was INVENTED in India?
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
The metal around your home, the concept of school, university, urban cities, Algebra Trigionometry your kid studies, astronomy, surgery, astrology, rockets, radio and phones all have comes from India and China.
wowyogi 2 years ago
The template of a modern university came from the Greeks. If you have ever studied at one you would know that. All the fraternities have three letter Greek name - not Sandskrit.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
oh please, it is a step wise refinement of the University system which first came from India.
wowyogi 2 years ago
Radio was invented by Tesla. Phones were invented by Bell. Modern rocktes were invented by VonBraun and Goddard. Algerbra and Trig came form the Arabs and Greek. Even in the ancient world there was a log of knowledge transfer. The bridge was the Great Library of Alexandria where people from all over the Old World shared knowledge. That was not in India!
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Radio was invented by BOSE. Rockets were invented in India and China (naval missiles). Algebra and Trig came from India and the Arabs took it to the rest of the world.
wowyogi 2 years ago
Bose just played with radio waves like thousands. Please document where he used modulated EM waves to send sounds to a radio reciever.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Looks like Marconi used Bose's coherer and no credit was given LOL. Am not surprised. The undisputed fact, even by admission of IEEE circa 1998, is that Jagadish Chandra Bose successfully demonstrated the wireless transmission of electromagnetic waves—which eventually led to the development of radio in 1895. IEEE quite rightly recognized Bose by inducting him into its Wireless Hall of Fame.
wowyogi 2 years ago
@wowyogi
>> Looks like Marconi used Bose's
>> coherer and no credit was given LOL
The point is Bose didn't invent BROADCAST radio. When you claim he invented RADIO that what you are implying to unsophisticated readers.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
LOL, if he was the inventor why did he use stuff built by Bose, shudnt it have been the other way around? As for sophistication I am sure IEEE is more sophisticated and informed than any other individual engineer/techie in the world.
wowyogi 2 years ago
@wowyogi
What stuff? Can you give me a documented list of "stuff" that Marconi "borrowed" from Bose. The early history of radio had a lot of contributors including Bose. The Holy Grain of radio in the late 19th century was to develop practical radio telegraphy - and that what was attributed to Marconi and Braun when they got the Noble Prize for contributions to radio telegraphy. Bose did not send "information"; he just triggered an explosion.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
That as per you, not as per IEEE. I have every reason to believe IEEE is more technically informed than you are. Coherer was something Marconi derived from Bose's work.
wowyogi 2 years ago
The IEEE is deparate to justify the H1B program and the mostly Indians who are coming over. The members are big corporations and universities that make money of peddling cheap labor H1Bs. My guess is that they are desprate to find some justification for the displacement of native residents by Indians and Bose is just the only example -and a lame one at that - of Indian tech innovation.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Thats right, and each and every one of them is a H1b supporter never failing to life the H1b banner on top of their head and cheer the H1Bs on. Now the US govt is complicit, the Corporations are, the IEEE is who else is left who is not guilty in your view. Dang, the H1b conspirators circle runs deep.
wowyogi 2 years ago
H1B is part of a billion dollar labor arbitrage system, that saves corporations billions in labor cost every year. MS, UCCC and Compete America bribe the politicians by telling us that native Americans are stupid and lazy. But, that era is over. Everyone knows that H1B is a bad thing; they cannot take Gates money and justifiy it any longer.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
If all of what you say is true then there would have been spontaneous outbursts by the common man in US in the fashion of the anti-Iraq war protests. The protests were against the strongest parts of the establishment gng to show the world hw functional US democracy is. Smthng to be proud about. That it has nt happened is something for you to think abt before saying such things as "everyone knows it is wrong".
wowyogi 2 years ago
There has been; two years ago a huge guest worker job immigration was defeated by popular outcry - the protests are significant. America isn't a parlimentary democracy where a cabinate minister has wide discrestion on how to implemetn immigration policy. Changing H1B requires passing legislation in both houses and getting the president to sign it. Corporate lobbyists pay a lot of money to politicians to keep the program going.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
I think I made the scale clear when I referred to the Iraq war protests. No protest of that order was seen, let alone at least half its size. Spontaneity and Intent missing, I dont see why such protests happen often on the streets of new york or Washington calling for the abolition of the "evil" H1B. If it is true that ur govt can indeed be manipulated so easily by vested interests, then u probably deserve to have such "evil" H1b system in place. Here in India we revoke things democratically.
wowyogi 2 years ago
You are seeing the Iraq war protests through the distorted eye of the European media. Protests against the Iraq war are small, sporadic and not very extensive here in the US. The war is not popular and most Americans don't like it; but they are not going to the streets in droves to protest it like you say. The war brings jobs and money into the economy so it is tolerated but not liked.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Errr... I was in the States when the protests happened, I know its scale. I also know about the Vietnam war protests. The thing is that when it comes to a cause the Americans are as good as any other democracy worth its salt in terms of rallying behind it. The war is bleeding the US economy with more deficit which will need to be paid for generations to come. I still feel that come post 2020, no one will buy US treasuries without extracitng their pound of flesh.
wowyogi 2 years ago
I've lived in the US all my life, I can tell you that the war protests look big in the media but compared to the 300M people hear - protesters are a minority. Most protesting is in email, letters faxes and phone calls and talk radio!
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
too conspiratorial, I am sorry its getting funny. Do you also deny that the Vietnam war protests were a hype? Seriously, do you?
wowyogi 2 years ago
Vietnam was before my time - I cannot comment on it. I think most historians think Vietnam was largley and economic boondoggle to keep the US economy going after WWII. The protests were wide spread and probably justified. But, I just don't see the Iraq war have the same kind of dis-approval.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
You cant escape from the Vietnam question by saying it was before your time. Vietnam and Iraq protests were the spontaneous reaction of American (and world) public to a wrong policy of the US govt. Its called democracy. You have yet to explain why such spontaneous mass protests are not coming forth for the conspiratorial h1b program that you so claim.
wowyogi 1 year ago
@wowyogi The US economy is a WAR economy. WWII lifted the US out of the Great Depression and the US as been in a continuous state of war since 1941 because it keeps the US economy going. Vietnam was perceived as largely an economic boondoggle and was unpopular as more and more people dies with out resolving the conflict. Although, look at in a similar manner, I just don't see "spontaneous" protests of the order of Vietnam about it. To most the attached on 9/11 seemed to justify involvedment.
linuxguru1968 1 year ago
ur assertion is seriously flawed. the US economy already had the cold war missile build up to more than drain and squander resources on and the gold standard for the dollar was already under question. The US least wanted a crisis at this time. Communism HAD TO be stopped and US was forced into the conflict. The US dint need the Vietnam conflict to ride its mil-industrial complex on. I also delve on was history so I know the facts. 9/11 was justified, Vietnam and Iraq werent!
wowyogi 1 year ago
>> Here in India we revoke things
>> democratically.
As I've pointed out, the society and government of the US is VERY different form India. The US is not a parlimentary democracy with a prime minister and cabinates which adminster policy like guest workers. Change does not come about by protests or revolutions - its comes through lobbying of special interests like corporations.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
I have seen how Greenspan was demolished by people's representatives in senate hearings. It doesnt get more direct a democracy than that. Presidential or Parliamentary, the people's voice when raised in the right pitch gets the message across. US IT workers r bcmng like Pakistan of late, raising conspiracy theories to blame the "other" when own house is nt in order. Sad.
wowyogi 2 years ago
Your assertion that H1B must be popular because you don't see violent protests against on the evening news in India is hardly proof that it is popular and beneficial in the views of most Americans. In America, we quietly debate such things in our homes, schools and in public forums. Two years ago the immigration lobby tried to force a huge immigration bill on us here, the protests were enormous and it was defeated. You seem to ignore that - our protests are email, letter and phone calls.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
I dont see how the Vietnam or the Iraq war was quietly protested. The Civil war was no quiet living room conversation. When it comes to them, Americans shed their individualistic mindset and rally behind a cause. There is a reason why American revolution is thought in our Indian classrooms along with our own and the French one. H1B is a bogey for the US IT worker to justify their lack of competence, over-pay and outright fear.
wowyogi 2 years ago
>> then u probably deserve to have
>> such "evil" H1b system in place.
Our society is evolving like any other and there are problems in our Constitution, specifically, the Supreme Court has equated giving money to politicians with the right of free speech. This has resulted in the ability of special interests with money like Bill Gates, Compete America and US Chamber of Commerce to suppress the truth about the destructiveness of H1B. But, our message has finally gotten through. Its over!
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Its not over. The bogey is still out there and its continuously being shot down by the hard facts.
wowyogi 2 years ago
However, there is the "The 2007 H1B and L1 Visa Fraud Prevention Act" which when passed will end H1B as a cheap labor program.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
That, I will believe when it is passed. That, for now is nowhere in sight.
wowyogi 2 years ago
When the big stimulus bill was passed last year, it included some of the restrictions on H1B - so in part it has passed. Right now with unemployment at 17%, its unlike that any type of immigration bill we be debated in the US, but when it does, very like most or part of the H1B Visa Fraud Bill will be part of it.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
I still see the floodgates open for H1B. Surely such a evil fascist program must have been sent to gitmo by now? The nominal measures you see here and there are for appeasement at best and when the ledger books start hurting for the company by hiring incompetent, lazy native workers the hard-working Indians/Chinese are brought right back. Speculation at best, that of the H1b bogey being sealed and tossed away.
wowyogi 2 years ago
Within the last 5 years that have been 4 attempst to raise the H1B cap - all have failed. In the past it was a sure thing, but not any more. Its nearly impossible for the politicains to defend H1B anymore because is pretty been demonstrated to be a cheap labor program that doesn't bring in quality people.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Trivial Failed attempts to raise the cap cannot be seen as signs of success given that there is no overwhelming street level protests to do away with such a "evil cheap labour" program. The day the H1B is fully scrapped I will agree with you that there has been success!
wowyogi 2 years ago
US is a representative democracy through its elected officials. There have been four attempts to raise the H1B cap in the last five years - each has failed. The fact that despite millions of dollars spent by Gates to get it lifted have had no effect, shows that the programs has only erroding support among law makers.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Please prove by providing a source for your BOGUS CLAIMS on BILL GATES. I expect you to weasel around from answering my question to you on providing a source for Bill Gates saying that foreign workers r more innovative than natives. You are yet to answer that. Keep dancing around that question! Your claim on failure of raising caps is analogous to saying that US won the war in Vietnam because Washington DC was nt nuked. Only the cap raise attemptes were stopped nt the whole h1b program.
wowyogi 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@wowyogi
>> foreign workers r more innovative than
>> natives
Seach for any of his US Contressional testimonies; you are righ, he doesnt come out and say it - he can't because its not true - but he implies it quite clearly.
linuxguru1968 1 year ago
So you are basing your whole argument on some misinterpreted notional interpretation of yours while there clearly exists no evidence of him having ever said such stuff? Please this is called character assassination. You have already called ur nation a kleptocracy and now you have to bring down BG as well? There is a limit to how low you can stoop down to sustain an argument
wowyogi 1 year ago
@wowyogi I admire BG very much; he's a significant player in technology. However, on H1B he is just towing the line of corporate that needs cheap labor and international labor arbitrage for their bottom line.
linuxguru1968 1 year ago
Studies have shown that each H1B recruitment has helped create 4-5 new jobs in the US.
wowyogi 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
>> Studies have shown that each H1B
>> recruitment has helped create 4-5
>> new jobs in the US.
Problem: if they hire a local candidate, it would have created the SAME number of jobs. These alleged "jobs" are NOT a result of the candidate being H1B but an artifact of just having the job in the first place.
linuxguru1968 1 year ago
@linuxguru1968 The real problem is that there no native folks to go around for hiring. If there had been enough native workers to go around US would never have had to bring in the h1b. That my friend is facts for you.
wowyogi 1 year ago
@wowyogi Every study that has been done by unbiased groups finds that H1Bs are paid less than native born worker. Its a cheap lobor program. When managment says, "we cannot find a worker" they are not including the said disclaimer "at a wage and work level I am willing to hire at." I'll send you Ron Hiras video again.
linuxguru1968 1 year ago
>> there clearly exists no evidence of\
>> him having ever said such stuff?
Sorry, I've been blogging on this stuff for so long, I don't remember what I've said, can you find it and cut-and-paste it here? Gates has state that there is a "desparate labor shortage in STEM" and that there just aren't enough "qualified candidates" to fill the slots at his company - even thought it just did its first ever lay-off.
linuxguru1968 1 year ago
1. Gates and his lobbyists are claiming that modern tech was invented by H1Bs which is not true.
2. Bill Gates and his lobbyist are claiming that H1Bs are been instrumental in the direct development of modern computer and telecommunication technology
wowyogi 1 year ago
@wowyogi
>> 1. Gates and his lobbyists are
>> claiming that modern tech was
>> invented by H1Bs which is not true
They are claiming that H1Bs have founded Fortune 500 companies that employ millions and generated billions in revenue - that is not true. They are implying that foreign born people particularly H1Bs have done this. That is not true.
linuxguru1968 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@wowyogi
>> 2. Bill Gates and his lobbyist are
>> claiming that H1Bs are been
>> instrumental in the direct
>> development of modern computer
>> and telecommunication technology
They have - but largely as cheap labor. Like I've pointed out H1Bs - from almost everywhere - have had little effect in innovation except as cheap labor.
linuxguru1968 1 year ago
The creator of facebook was an Indian and was a H1B holder. Too bad he was sent off to Canada due to local visa restrictions. Another example of how US's selfish visa regulation are driving away talent.
wowyogi 1 year ago
No. Mark Zuckerberg founded Facebook - he was born here and was a college dropout like Gates, Ellison and Jobs. What was the H1B who you CLAIM founded Facebook?
linuxguru1968 1 year ago
Jagadish Chandra Bose successfully demonstrated the wireless transmission of electromagnetic waves
If Shannon can get credit for the USB because he laid the basics, then Bose can claim credit for the Radio.
wowyogi 2 years ago
Your not making sense, by definitions EM waves dont travel down wires they travel interspacially through some kind of higher interdimensional field of some sort.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Errr....he pioneered the study of millimeter waves and applied it practically for a demo of practical wireless comunication. If you consider communication as two souls sitting on each side discussing pleasantries or singing rhymes, sorry thats trivializing communication. Remote Control gun, wow, at his time, that was cutting edge. wonder why that dint come from the most technically innovative culture,hmmm...
wowyogi 2 years ago
>> he pioneered the study of millimeter
>> waves and applied it practically for a
>> demo of practical wireless
>> comunication
Bose rang a bell with EM waves; he didn't send information. His demo did not demonstrate telegraphy or voice. Thats not to say it was not important; but you haven't shown that it was a direct line to the invention of BROADCAST RADIO.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
The embedded signals in the EM waves was INFORMATION. Information need not be only aural and pertinent to human interpretation. You have a narrow mandate for some technical terms. Where did I say that Bose was the inventor of broadcast radio? Bose's work, as acknowledged by IEEE was of direct consequence to the development of broadcast radio.
wowyogi 2 years ago
Shannon define information as "a message that resolves uncertainlty". Bose demo to ring a bell or fire a gun or what ever was NOT a practical demonstration of bi-direction information transfer like the Marconi trans-atlantic telegraphy demonstration that got him and Braun the Noble Prize.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
errrr...thats some definition for a word. I see that definitions of words such as information, computer, modern, the west are all changed as per convenience to suit the discussion. Very well, my point is that the very radio wave is an information understood by the receiver to get something done. Its a evry good practical demonstration of radio technology. Kudos to Bose for pioneering it and kudos for the IEEE in recognizing it.
wowyogi 2 years ago
I don't think anyone creditied Claude Shannon with INVENTING USB. His PHD codified digital circuit design and his Theory of Communication lead to the engineering of transmitting information via varios mediums. USB was a direct result of his work with other building on it within a few years.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Actually you were the one to quickly diss the invention of USB by and Indian saying that he built on the work of Claude Shannon but you have qualms acception that Bose's work led to the broadcast radio. Double standards at their best.
wowyogi 2 years ago
The concept of digital signalling on wires was a direct result of Shannon and Tukeys work at Bell labs in the late 1940s - IDE, firewire, USB and IEEE 802.3 or even ATM, DSL - all signalling technology is directly traced to their patents. Some Indian engineers worked on USB but by the time they did, the science of digital logic design and protocols was routine work - they didn't really invent anything new.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
No, they put to use in practical terms theoretical works, though not directly related, conjured up by others. the USB is a world hit. If the USB can be attributed to Shannon, then almost all "modern" electronic innovations can be credited to the ancient Indians/Chinese/Egyptians. Funny how different yardsticks work eh?
wowyogi 2 years ago
>> all "modern" electronic innovations
>> can be credited to the ancient
>> Indians/Chinese/Egyptians.
None of these ancient people worked at Bell Labs in the late 1940s. None of these cultures laid telephone lines. If you could show me an ancient text that shows how to make a NAND gate, might have a point. But, I've never seen any indication of anything like that except from the ancient astronaut lunatic fringe.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
These cultures were flying planes in 1894 and were inventing radio communication in early 19th century. Colour photography first came from Russia. To mention that it is a modern technology only if they work in some cubicle in Bell Labs is outright insane!
wowyogi 2 years ago
USB was desinged to compete with Apple/Mac Firewire except to work with the more ubiquitous Wintel PC platform. It took two generations(2.0)to reach the same speed as Firewire. I really don't see much of a difference between the two. USB is just a "clean room" reverse engineering job on Firewire - pretty routine work; not a tangent into a new technology.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Does not matter it came from Indian brains. I dont see why the "most technologically" innovative people dint invent it in the first place. The point is that modern innovation kept coming from Indians, the Chinese etc.
wowyogi 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
>> the invention of USB by and Indian
>> .... on the work of Claude Shannon
>> but .... acception that Bose's work
>> led to the broadcast radio.
In the late 1940s, Shannon, Tuckey and others build and demonstrated the regenerative transmitter that converted analog to digital and back that was used in long distance phone systems almost immediately - that was the ground work of wired digital communications. You cannot say that about Bose demo; he didnt send telegraphy or voice.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Wired, Wired! Bose pioneerd wireless over millimeter waves and gave the first practical demo of using radio waves for a useful purpose. The first satellite Sputnik really was nothing, as per your logic, after all it did not, transmit or receive communications signals for practical real world use. Maybe the Soviets shud have sent the inventor of the Sputnik to the Gulags or to Gitmo.
wowyogi 2 years ago
I never claimed that Sputnik was a demo for broadcast radio. If was a demo of how to orbit an artificial satillite. Bose may have demonstrate a kind of practical use of radio waves, but he didn't demo broadcast radio. You can call him the father of EM bell ringing but not the father of broadcast radio.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
If you note clearly and pay attention, the IEEE dint declare him the father of broadcast or any other radio. It declared him the father of radio. He pioneered the first successful use of wireless signals to achieve something. Radio and broadcast radio are two different things. Ask the kid who flies a radio controlled plane next door, he wud be able to tell you.
wowyogi 2 years ago
By the 1990s, when USB was developed Firewire was already the standard. USB was just a reverse engineered version for WinTel to try to compete with Apple/Mac. The developers of USB Indian or otherwise just didnt invent anything new.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
@wowyogi
>> Bose successfully demonstrated the
>> wireless transmission of
>> electromagnetic waves
I'm not trying to diss Bose or say that he wasn't a smart man. But, his demo wasn't much different that what other experimenters where doing; he didn't send information. During the first half of the century there was multi-million dollar patent dispute over who invented broadcast radio; the US patent office determined that that was Tesla.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Bose dint go to the US patent office so they obviously gave it to Tesla or whoever else disputed it. If Bose had gotten involved it wud have been a different matter.
wowyogi 2 years ago
@wowyogi
The credit for the invention of broadcast radio in the early 20th century was a lot like the Microsoft Antitrust case 100 years later. It was a huge growth market worth millions and companies like RCA were trying to exploit it. To do that they had to secure a patent on the tecnology so there was decades of litigation over who did what first and whos patent demonstrated what. A lot of people contributed and Bose NEVER demonstarted practical radio telegraphy or voice broadcast.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
@wowyogi
>> which eventually led to the
>> development of radio in 1895.
There is no evidence that Bose demo was a direct ancestor to broadcase radio. People all over including Marconi, Tesla and probably Edison where doing the same kind of stuff. The break through was the invention of electronic tubes by De Forrest and diodes by Guthrie and Edison.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
@wowyogi
>> Bose by inducting him into its
>> Wireless Hall of Fame.
Thats good. He probably deserves it; but don't say he invented information transmission by radio waves because he was not directly responsible for it!
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Yes he was and the IEEE has acknowledged it,. Between ur word and that of the largest body of engineers in the world, I will take the word of IEEE while u resort to ad hominem attacks on its reputation.
wowyogi 2 years ago
@wowyogi
The IEEE is a professional organization and has not legislative or legal powers. What ever they said, I'm sure they didn't credit Bose with the invention of broadcast radio.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
from the IEEE site,
Sir J.C. Bose's pioneering works in quasi-optic millimeter wave research in Calcutta, India about 100 years back during 1890s are highlighted. He developed an elegant millimeter wave spark transmitter, self recovering coherer detector, wire grid polariser, cylindrical diffraction grating, dielectric lens and prism, rectangular waveguide, horn antenna and microwave absorber, for the studies of reflection
wowyogi 2 years ago
refraction, absorption and polarisation of millimeter waves and its application to wireless remote control for firing a gun. All these pioneering activities indicate that he was well ahead of his time and prompted us to call him the father of Radio Science
wowyogi 2 years ago
@wowyogi
NONE of his stuff has anything to do with modern computing and any direct way. He triggered a gun by radio waves; he never sent voice or telegraph information via EM waves. Calling him the fater of Radio Science is just not accurate; Hertz and Maxwell discoverd EM radiation and did all of the imporant mathematics. Tesla and Marconi created the first demo that send telegraph and voice via EM waves. Bose didn't. He was just one small contributor.
linuxguru1968 2 years ago
Whoa, why drag in computers when we r discussing wireless communications which, as per the LARGEST body of engineers in the world, has been credited to Bose. Bose demonstrated practical wireless communication before Marconi and Marconi used some of the equipment BUILT BY BOSE. Probably Bose shud have raised a plagiarism case, but the poor man was not into chest beatign and claiming hw he was superior to all else just bcoz he came up with some electrical eqpmt.
wowyogi 2 years ago