Prebuttal to Petraeus: The Surge has Failed

[harobedyelsnit]

Juan Cole: The Maliki government & its allied Shiite faction, the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq, are much closer to Iran than the Sadrists. ... It was the head of that Quds Force,an Iranian general, who bailed out Maliki after the assault on Basra failed, forcing him to send officials to Iran to broker a truce.

[lldanj]

it is unamerican to say we are losing - even if we are. all voices should be united - even in a lie.

The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge is working... The surge...

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

There are 2 things that are absolutely true:

1)The surge IS working!

2)You're an Idiot!

[lldanj]

Touche! Those are strong arguments indeed.

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

I used to try and have logical discusions with hard left wing types, but your knee jerk biased opinions are so set that talking sense is useless. You look at success and insist it's failure...the logic in that eludes me. So I've decided to treat the hard left like you treat me...like an enemy. BTW, I'm a blood relative of George Washington and I don't think Ol' George would like you hard left types much either. In fact, I Know he wouldn't. So Shove It!

[harobedyelsnit]

Ouch. I'll bet George would like me just fine.

I know commenters can be irrational and harsh - on both sides. There's plenty of evidence, but I'm not giving up my principles of civility or rationality because someone else goes off the deep end to insult me. No one ever called me hard left in my real life (not online). In fact, most folks think me moderate.

I'm kin to miners, farmers, several Marines and at least one horse thief.. They'd probably like you fine. They are amiable folk.

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

GW lost most of the battles he fought in and had many that criticised him and wanted him removed. My guess is that you would have been one of those and not respected by Ol' George...just like you're not respected by me. George ignored the you types and America was born. You embrace every oportunity to see things in the worse light and ignor anything that's positive. You make your decisions based on a D or an R next to someone's name. Your opinion is jaded and therefore worthless.

[harobedyelsnit]

Wow, quite an imagination you've got there. Did you find the "way back" machine for that one? All wars are not the same. Where I stood during the Revolutionary war would have depended on my status, where I came from, my background, wealth, etc. Apparently, you can't think of anything current to rebut my arguments so you are making up these fantasies about the past to condemn me. More interested in condemning than in rational argument perhaps?

[harobedyelsnit]

It's pro-American to speak the truth. The surge has failed. When the "surge" is withdrawn (if it ever is), troop levels will still be higher than pre-surge totals.

I suggest watching PBS's "Bad Voodoo" for a soldier's eye view of what is going on in Iraq. It's breaking down our mlitary. It's ruining our best and brightest as they are deployed over and over and over again. And for what?

DebMo

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

I am a combat veteran and I don't need to watch some PBS weenie liberal spin to know which way the wind blows. I know that you WANT us to lose even though it could very well be a disaster for the whole World. It is OBVIOUS that the surge has worked....PERIOD!!!

[harobedyelsnit]

They weren't weenies. They were actual combat vets, most on their 2nd or 3rd tour of duty. If you watched the show, you'd be ashamed of yourself. They are brave, honorble men.

I hope you are right and the surge is working and we can come away with honor and pride, but from what I've seen and read, I just don't think that's going to happen. I spent most of the program praying to myself, "Don't die, please don't die." I wouldn't bother praying for a weenie.

DebMo

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

I served 2 tours in Viet Nam and I can promise you from expierience that there are always a few nay sayers that will disparage even the greatest success for reasons known only to themselves. Kerry told the US Congress that the guys that were there (I was in-country when he said it) were behaving like the Mongul Horde. That was an Evil lie, but a lot of people believed it because it was what they wanted to hear. The vast majority of the Iraq vets aren't saying that stuff...trust in them.

[harobedyelsnit]

The troops serving in Iraq have their specific view of the war. Since they are commited to it, they need to believe what they are doing is worthwhile. What I hear from those in the heat of battle is not about the tactical or the political ends, but the lives of those they serve with - their comrades, their buddies.

I am grateful to you for your service. I just don't think the US's participation this war accomplishes what needs to be done.

DebMo

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

So ignore them and completely accept what a small number of nay-sayers have to say? Does that make sense to you? Look, if you want to get out of Iraq then that's fine...but don't insist that the Surge hasn't worked when it has...and that's as obvious as the sunrise. This plan has worked and the people that came up with it and executed it deserve credit for it...and all the left wing nitwits that NEVER say ANYTHING nice about ANY conservative are sick in their soul...and that's a fact.

[harobedyelsnit]

What was the goal of the surge? We knew adding troops would reduce violence. That's simple math. The purupose of the Surge was to give the Maliki government a chance to stabilize. The recent violence in Basra and the enhanced role of Sadr proves that the surge has not worked. How could it?

Meanwhile, our armed forces are being disintergrated by extended deployments and stop loss deployments. Afghanistan is going down the tubes. Again, just how has the surge worked?

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

Chicken Little political thinking. I want the USA to lose and be humiliated because it would mean that my political party will be strengthened. Sadr does not have an enhanced role...the Maliki gov has made progress...our armed forces are not being disintergrated ...and Afganistan is not going down the tubes. Despite the fact that many politically jaded individuals like yourself desperately want such to be so. Keep drinking that coolaid!

[harobedyelsnit]

Head in the sand thinking I'd say. For one thing, I don't think this is a classic win/lose situation. The losers have been the 100,000 dead Iraqis with their trashed infrastructure and corrupt governments.

The armed forces are being decimated. General after general has said so. Fact - Al Queda is rebuilding all along the Pakistan/Afghanistan border. Our current Sec. of Defense said he intends to send more troops to Afghanistan in 2009 (how he can promise that I don't know). Reality check.

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

Here's some reality for you. 150 million humans died in wars during the last century. Why? Because the World wouldn't fight little wars to prevent big wars. We are fighting a little war to prevent a big one. At least 50% of the oil on earth resides beneath a slim crescent of territory in the middle east...and the Iranians and the terrorists want to control it. Leaving would strengthen and embolden them. The world cannot allow these zealots to basically control the world economy.

[harobedyelsnit]

I don't accept your premise. No one knows for sure what might have happened if only. . .

As far as controlling the oil, everyone wants to control it - Russians, Brits, Chinese, US - all as quick to kill and more able than Iranian's and terrorists.

It's not just the Saudi's, Iranians and Iraqi's making money - it's Big Oil, and there's a whole lotta Americans, Brits, Europeans, Russians, Chinese, etc. in those ranks. Want to declare war on them too?

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

If we wanted to control it we would. Kuwait has as much oil as Iraq and we've had an army sitting there more than once that could have easily taken over. BTW, your lefty portrayal of Maliki's defeat is in error. 1,000 Itaqis did refuse to fight but they were mostly police...13000 Iraqi army stood and fought. Al Sadr did request a cease fire at the urging of Iran, but Maliki did not negotiate with Iran and has since increased troops in Sadr City causing the offer to disband.

[harobedyelsnit]

Well I think you are the one mistaken so I guess there's no resolution to this particular argument. I base my opinions on reading a wide selection of reports and some books not so much on gut reaction. I guess we'll see this play out. I think Sadr wants a legitimate (stronger) position in the government.Any concessions he makes are toward that end. We'll be seeing a lot of him in the future(unless he's killed).IMHO

I've enjoyed jousting with you. Ididn't really expect to sway you. Thanks.

[harobedyelsnit]

Mr. Maliki's attempt to defeat the militias in southern Iraq loyal to his Shiite rival, Moktada al-Sadr, was a failure. It left Mr. Sadr more secure than before.

Some Iraqi armed forces mutinied. American and British forces and air power had to rescue them in both Basra and Baghdad.The result was at best a standoff, with huge casualties. The battle ended only when Mr. Maliki's own political minions sought a cease-fire.

Yep the Surge is working.

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

Al Sadr offered today to disband his militia if the clerics say he should. Al Sadr also was the one that asked for the cease fire. And yet, your interpretation is that he is more "secure"...that he basically won....strange!

[harobedyelsnit]

Your wrong about Al Sadr asking for the cease fire. McCain mistated that in yet another gaffe about the Iraq war. It is well reported that Maliki went to Iran to negotiate the cease fire. Iran has more influence in Iraq with Maliki than the US.

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

What did you just say? That Al Sadr is a surrogate of the Iranians...well DUH! What do the Iranians want?...What do the terrorists want? What does Al Sadr want? What do you want? For us to get out of Iraq...for different reasons yes, but the goal is the same. Do you think that just maybe this recent dust-up was designed to effect the discussion in the US during the Petraeus progress report? The enemy of my enemy is my friend. I don't think much of your friends.

[harobedyelsnit]

No, Maliki went to the Iranians to get them to broker a cease fire with Sadr. MALIKI - Bush's buddy not Sadr. Maliki's attempt to defeat the militias in S.Iraq loyal to his Shiite rival, al-Sadr failed. That left Sadr more secure than before. American and British forces and air power had to rescue them in both Basra and Baghdad. It was at best a standoff, with huge casualties. The battle ended only when Maliki sought a cease-fire.

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

Wrong...Maliki did not meet with the Iranians and did not send any surrogates to request a cease fire....biased lft wing reports of that are in error and probably purposefully so. You eat propaganda like it's popcorn. Try thinking for youself for a change. Why would Al Sadr offer to disband if he won? He wouldn't. The Iranians sent his guys out in hopes that Maliki would cave like he has in the past...and he didn't. They were trying to send u ammuntion for the hearings. They like you!

[harobedyelsnit]

You always lace your arguments with insults. Is that just for effect, to try and bully me into something or is it just because you get off on it? Hmmmm.

According to all my reading and thinking, and what else do we have to go on after all, you are the one in error. I don't know all of Sadr's motives, but I do know, even if he disbands the Medhi Army, there's going to be a lot of bloodletting yet to come. What happens when Sadr becomes a powerful member of the government? He's not our friend.

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

People like you Hate all Conservatives so I'm going to humor you by Hating you back. I think that you're un-patriotic, un-American, and that you talk much and understand little. I think that you're 10 miles wide and 1 inch deep. You're thinking threatens the future of the Entire World and I stand against you. End Of Discussion!

[harobedyelsnit]

That can hardly be true since almost everyone in my closest family are Conservatives. I don't hate anyone - part of my childhood upbringing. I may hate a person's actions or words, but I don't hate people.

You may not read this since you ended the discussion. That's okay. We've probably gone as far as we can go on this topic. Peace be with you.

DebMo

[smartincreative]

UGH! Still having this same old argument? Me and 80% of the country don't give a fuck about Iraq. We are just trying to keep our homes from being foreclosed on, keep our gas tanks and oil tanks full, and try and hang on to our jobs. Meanwhile we're watching the dollar dwindle and our retirement accounts lose value by the day. Iraq can go to hell (if it hasn't already)

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

Hey Tom, how do you rebut something that hasn't even happened yet?

[johnawalton]

ur a joke. even CNN has shown that it works. please use rational thinking next time, not ur emotions

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

Un-American and foolish.

[lennonvideo]

Take it easy on yourself.

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

I did...kept it short and sweet.

[ashrakay]

It's un-American and foolish to question authority, to demand results, to expect competence?

I'm curious what your model for a free, democratic society is. I'm thinking it's Pakistan or China.

[widgetbrain]

yes, thats exactly what he thinks.

[NakedLadyMudFlap]

It's un-American to lie about things that are important to national security...and it's foolish to expect people to believe the lie. It's also foolish to demand that we depart Iraq when we are obviously making a lot of progress. If you don't like Bush then that's fine by me...but use your brain when making decisions about things that are best for America and leave your political feelings out of it.