Harold is no different than every church in the USA.......you ask the leaders of all the churches in this country and 99% of them will tell you the end is almost here......Camping is just a scape goat
99%? What are you basing that figure on? There are a lot of popular preachers who think that Jesus' return is very near. I am not closed to the possibility that they are correct. However very few of them would be foolish enough to set a date or use the ridiculous methods of interpretation Camping used.
Whenever Camping was faced with the whole "no man knows the date or the time", all he did was push it aside saying "Oh, God didn't want them to know back then but He wants us to know now."
@RPFS2008 That is true.. to people who are only worldly-minded, all things of the spirit are only foolishness. People have been ridiculing religion as long as there has been religions, and Christianity is one faith out of so many thousands.. for those people who cannot even perceive more than they can hold or personally witness, all faiths are nonsense to them. That is why when people do discover faith, it is often described has their eyes being opened.. they were completely blind to faith.
You can try to dress it up all you like but believing that someone rose from the dead 2000 years ago is ridiculous.
And it get's worse. Why do people have faith that this occured? because they have faith that the Bibical manuscripts, which were not even written by eyewitnesses, do not agree with each other on pretty important aspects, and are not the originals, are reliable.
It's a sorry state of affairs in the 21st Century.
@RPFS2008 far from 'dressing up' any thing, the truth is that Christianity has survived quite well into the 21st century. But with any religion comes zealots who lose common sense, pretenders, and opportunists who seek political power and / or fame for themselves - this is human nature.. we have the option for good or evil.. some choose evil. Of course you are welcome to try and reinforce your own faith in random chance accidental life, but some of us see evidence of an intelligent design.
@RPFS2008 And just to correct your misstatement, the 4 Gospels within the Bible actually DO claim to be eyewitness accounts, written by people who lived with, spoke with, worked with the man known as Christ. But do you believe the testimony of 4 witnesses that agree? Or do you deny them all because what they wrote is more incredible than anything you have personally ever witnessed? Read it for yourself and decide for yourself. Do NOT follow ministers, instead find and follow God.
The Gospels do not claim to be written by eyewitnesses nor do they claim to be written by the the persons whose name is in the title. They are annonymous. Mathew did not write the Gospel of Mathew, and so on.
@RPFS2008 The Gospels in fact DO claim to be eyewitness accounts.. either you have not actually read them, or you choose to deny them for your own reasons.. Do not worry, i am not trying to open your eyes to any belief beyond what you can feel comfortable grasping. But even if you look at the Bible as if it were fiction.. like Harry Potter.. Mr. Camping cannot get his facts straight.. he is trying to rewrite the story to suit himself. As if someone were claiming Harry was a muggle.
@RPFS2008 Actually very little of the Bible was Aramaic.. Paul wrote entirely in Greek and the whole of the Old Testament is written in Hebrew. Where ever you are collecting your strange beliefs from, it seems as much a fantasy as what Mr. Camping has dreamed up. Maybe you should write your own exposition.. tell us all about it o prophet of random dumb luck! lol
What’s all this nonsense about the Rapture ‘not happening’? I myself was Raptured up into heaven on May 21st, an experience I will never forget.
It was beautiful to behold. I danced with lovely angels. The Holy Spirit came before me, opened up my body & inspired me from within with its great light of Truth.
In the end, God said I had to return to earth to cleanse mankind of its sin- that’s right, WE ARE TOO SINFUL FOR RAPTURE, but you now have a 2nd chance. You all need to listen to ME.
Well then get the magic captain of your club, the one that knows all and does all to wave their magic heretic buster and then you can all pray happily together ever after. I mean they do have the power correct. And if not close your club and stop making those kind of people in my world before I NEED to deal with them.
@alanjavis I understand what you are saying, but you really seem to misunderstand the whole situation. Just as there are good, noble, devoted, wise, loving people who are Christians, there are also demented, misguided, self-seeking monsters who also claim to be Christians.. and the 'club' as you call it is really not connected at all.. for ever church that teaches scripture there is another church that teaches lies.. we do not get to CHOOSE what other people claim about themselves -->
@alanjavis --> for those who do ever learn much real Bible scripture, without that to compare with how the so-called Christians act it can some times be so very hard to tell the angels from the demons.. understand first that we are all sinners, all weak in some ways, but know that some of us are doing our best to learn from the Bible, while others seek to reinterpret it in favor of their own selfish desires.
Remove them and all of that type from your club and yes I would add that too the equation. Clubs that don't clean their owns houses need others to do it. Simple and excuses for them only make it worse, just like police forces with bad cops. Ever hear that one bad apple spoils the whole barrel.
Harold Camping and Westboro are not in my "club". I am not a member of Westboro Baptist Church and I don't subscribe to Family Radio. What am I supposed to do? Zap them with my heretic buster? I can't stop them doing and saying the things that they do. All I can do is speak out against them which I have.
Imagine if a guy said this: "I totally believe that Elivs is still alive. He is actually an Alien, and will come back to this planet on May 22nd, 2011". What would your response be? Would you say "Lol, you so stupid, you can't know the date!" Or would you say "Lol, you so stupid, Elvis is dead!"?
If they could demonstrate that Elvis is alive and that he is an alien, then I wouldn't dismiss it. The problem is that they wouldn't be able to. Elvis did not perform miracles, predict the future or rise from the dead. Elvis did not fulfill any promises. Jesus on the other hand did, and the evidence that He rose from the dead is pretty amazing. Since Jesus came good in the past I can be confident he will come good in the future. So, I would say that that's a bad comparison.
@ukchristian28 Miracles are not a requirement of Aliens. His voice was not from this world, so there is a good case that he might be an alien :-P And we have photography and videos showing him. From Jesus, we have only third- to fourth-hand accounts written some decades after his alleged resurrection. You call that amazing evidence? No. If you believe in the rapture and all that, you are just as crazy as camping. The mere act of putting a date on it doesn't add or remove much from the crazieness
Its sad that all his followers quit their jobs and such.......................but I am not really feeling sorry for them because we are not to fallow man. Men are sinners and if you put your faith in a man he will surly let you down..........
Men dont let you down..science has doubled your lifespan
On the other hand, look up prayer deaths, where people with the most unwavering faith in a imaginary being called your god failed epically :)..with children dieing of simple symptoms, that could have been cured with a simple outpatient procedure.you got to laugh though, one kid drowned in his own urine.you see that is what faith does makes you brain dead
Trust in man, trust in science. it gives you hope with evidence :)
But if you are talking about this sad man in the video...he is the same as you ...he just put a date on it......you just believe no one knows the date..so you are just as he is-------->>brain dead
I like Harold Camping. He's destroying religion with his beliefs. Everybody knows Christians are the biggest hypocrites. That's why many of them go around preaching the parables of Jesus on Sunday and then preaching hate on Monday. I thought Jesus hated hypocrites. HA! HA!
Could you please be a little more specific as to what you are talking about? Preaching hate how? What hypocritcal behaviour are you talking about and are you sure all Christians are guilty of it?
@ukchristian28 I'm not saying all Christians are hypocrites. But many are. Many Nazis called themselves Christian. Many KKK members and other racists who wouldn't mind killing non-Christians and minorities are Christians. Many of the biggest homophobic gay bashers are Christians, etc. People who believe that all non-Christians will go hell, despite being good people, are hypocrites.
Ok a few things. I don't think I would recognise the KKK or "Christian" neo-Nazis as being authentically Christian since what they practice and what they are focused on is not the person of Jesus Christ but their racist agendas. Secondly the word "homophobic" has always seemed someone nonsensical to me. Not everyone who is critical of homosexual relations is afraid of gay people. Finally how is taking Jesus at His word (John 14:6) hypocritical?
Thank you for this video. I'm more than disappointed, I'm angry bc these folks are just stiff-necked. I would call them sheep, but most sheep aren't this loyal to continue in such folly. I just wanted to thank you for putting out the word that these type of false prophets put Christ to an open shame, and true believers should stand up and say what a disgrace it is. They simply want to be right, over wanting to conform themselves to the Word of God.
Has he? I haven't listened to what Thunderf00t has to say on this. I am not surprised to hear it though. Thunderf00t is clueless when it comes to anything other than science.
I agree entirely. What he's doing is like describing Kent Hovind as a "genuine scientist", pointing out the flaws in his claims, and using that to justify dismissing all of science.
@ukchristian28 Isn't it funny how you christians are always at each other about one another being false versions of yourselfs. You would have thought if the bible had come from god and he had sent down his son to deliver it he would have ensured that his message was consistent so that you could all agree. There is no different from you or the WBC you both derive your "truth" from an ancient bronze text and both assert that you understand it better than the other. What makes you right?
@ukchristian28 So you are feeling pretty pleased with yourself because your version of christianity has been vindicated because of Campings false prophecy? I have news for you he doesn't see it that way - you are both as deluded as one another - that is all that his failure proves - not that your own smug and watered down version of christianity (over liberalised and intellectualised Cof E to the point of apathy) can scoff at the immature and foolish rantings of the evangelists. cntd ...
@ukchristian28 I actually have more respect for him than you - at least he has the force of his convictions - you intellectualise and meander around criticism by presenting a respectable version of christianity. I am sure you have heard this a hundred times before but you and he have one thing in common you draw your legitimacy from an ancient txt written by goat herders ...
I think some people very much want to live in "important" times. To witness such fundamental miraculous events which would turn the world upside down also heightens one's own importance: "I predicted this, it's me and my generation who receive the grace to be witness". These prophets are longing to be recognized and worshipped, there are very basic human aspirations involved - no matter if they are deliberate or unconscious.
You can point the finger at people like Camping (and there are many other charlatans like him) but he would not have the money, power and authority if people of faith didn't give that to him. People of faith need to be more discerning and not assume honesty simply because these people appear religious (it's a bit like giving them an instant "get out of jail" card). For this reason this guy has duped people on more than one occasion now and will continue to do so.
@ukchristian28 That is a very good thing, certainly Christians don't do this enough. I am an ex-pentecostalist now atheist but I can see the radicalised elements of Christianity (like this) doing damage to the more moderate branches of Christianity.
@ukchristian28 Are you a personal supporter of eternal torture for non-believers? Do you believe the rapture will happen? Do you believe in zombie Jesus? If so, what exactly is the difference between a "moderate" Christian and this camping guy other than he just decided to go one small step further and put a date on it?
Firstly, you may be a fundy atheist if you insist on using ridiculous phrases like "zombie Jesus". I believe in that God bodily rose Jesus to life in glorified form.
I believe in eternal punishment but not literal hell fire. This video by TektonTV explains my view: watch?v=-q5vGcpx1sY&feature=channel_video_title Camping actually believes in annihilationism.
I believe in the future bodily return of Christ but am unsure of all the details.
@ukchristian28 I'm sorry, I'm not a fundy anything, but I have seen a few zombie movies and that's how I refer to people who rise from the grave, it's an accurate description. I don't understand why people believe things like this. As soon as you can suspend reason and believe anything, well, you are then a person who is capable of suspending reason and believing anything. How is Camping really any different from any other true believer? His beliefs have as much backing them as any religion.
@ukchristian28 I also have to ask, why? Why would you believe any of that? So you completely believe everything this guy camping believes, for the same reasons, but you just don't want to put a date on it. How is this different? It's exactly the same story.
I have already pointed out the differences in the way Camping approaches Bible study and how serious Bible students approach it. I am not repeating myself. Go back and look at what I said.
@ukchristian28 Yeah, but see, I'm studying the bible too, and perhaps you can help direct me because the more I work on it, the less I understand why anyone would really believe it. The more I learn about it, the more I am disturbed by 21st century people using 12th century thinking to direct behavior and solve problems. I understand the social construct and intimidation involved. What I don't understand is how people can directly deny reality. Mind boggling really.
@ukchristian28 Well, I suppose that depends on your flavor of Christianity, but only in terms of the number of denials. Beliefs that directly deny real experience, such as resurrection, young earth theory, the entire genesis story, everything that does not happen in anyone's experience, ever, all deny reality. For this reason alone, we should be more than skeptical of those claims. Put into context, it is easy to assume they are simply not true, as real as the Arabian Nights tales or Grimms.
Young earth creationism is pretty indensible on scientific and biblical grounds. That's why I reject it. The entire Genesis story?
Who says that no one has experienced miracles? The eye witness testimony of the gospels is evidnce of the resurrection which can't be dismissed as easily as that. I would agree though that we should always look for natural explanations first, since they are the norm.
@ukchristian28 I can't say for certain no one has ever experienced a miracle because I have not personally witnessed everyone's experience. However, as you've stated, we should look for natural explanations first and there is nothing I have seen or read that defies natural explanations. There is no evidence of miracles. Just like there is no evidence of Valhalla. These things are in the same category as god or unicorns. There is no good reason to believe any of it any of it is real at all.
"And what counts as valid evidence in your view? Multiple eye witness testimony doesn't count? If not, why not?"
eye witness accounts LOL first of all you dont have eyewitness accounts ..you have hand me downs orally changed over time, then written down by non eyewitnesses...further more eyewitnesses are the worse evidence you can have......dna best way to go
but seeing you go on faith in men telling you about it all good luck ..lol
Right, I do apologize, you did qualify that you have a tempered down version of eternal torture. You must understand that to someone looking into these religions from the outside, it all sounds equally illegitimate.
@ukchristian28 OK, so your vision of hell is just as abhorrent and objectionable as Camping's. This kinda speaks to my original point that perhaps your beliefs and his are pretty much the same or at least on equal grounds.
@ukchristian28 Yeah, um, because it's outrageous, just like Camping's claims. How can you justify such a fundamentally important set of beliefs based on nothing more than 2000 year old goat herder fairy tales? Is the concept of mortality really that scary? Instead of just accepting that we actually die we have to lie to ourselves and tell ourselves stories? What's more, we have to make people enemies before even meeting them because we vocally condemn them all for all eternity? That's crazy
If you listened to this video and the one I posted last Saturday it should be pretty clear what the difference is. Camping didn't just "go one step further". The way in which he forms his conclusions about what he thinks the Bible teaches involves completely ignoring the original context, allegorising in the most arbritary fashion and adding up random numbers having given them a significance that he dreamed up himself.
@ukchristian28 It seems to me, that by simply accepting claims that are completely contrary to all known reality such as resurrection, you are doing exactly the same thing as camping. You are both just choosing to believe something because you want to. I've been studying the bible itself and the history of how it came about in an attempt to better understand. I can see where it came from, how it's spread, etc, but the book itself really is just full of old fairy tales.
First of all could you provide some justification for your assertion that supernatural events like the resurrection would be "contrary to known reality". Just assuming metaphysical naturalism without any backing is not an argument and I really wish people like yourself would come to understand that. I am also not believing anything "just because I want to". Where do you get off making assumptions like that about people? Christianity is defensible.
@ukchristian28 People do not get up after they are dead. I would say that's understood by everyone, everywhere, isn't it? Do you have a different opinion about this that people who die occasionally get back up? All the evidence that exists, points to the fact that people die so I accept that as reality. If you don't believe it because you want to then why? Why are you a Christian? Really? The only real reason that all the believers ever give me ultimately comes down to they just want to.
So what it comes down to is you assume the natural world is all that exists and use to argue that miracles never happen or are impossible. That's really circular.
@ukchristian28 Not at all, but I do not pre-suppose that I understand the supernatural world in any way and I do not assume that my ancestors did either. When I studied where the bible came from, how it was written, how the religion spread, it makes perfect sense. There is zero evidence of any divine assistance. Do you accept genie magic as equally valid? What about Harry Potter? I don't deny Harry Potter could exist since there is no evidence to the contrary, but I do not believe he's real
Saying "do you believe in Harry Potter too?" is just silly. If something doesn't claim to be anything other than a work of fiction, it's obviously not a very good comparison.
And what counts as valid evidence in your view? Multiple eye witness testimony doesn't count? If not, why not?
@ukchristian28 It's not eye witness. Eye witness testimony requires a living eye witness. Even so, if someone came to you and told you they saw their Aunt rise from the grave, would you believe them? Even if it was someone you trusted? Would you just accept that claim with zero doubt? Accept it to the point where you are willing to inform your actions by what your friend says because they witnessed this miracle? That is a reasonable way to approach life?
The reasoning to argue for the ressurection goes like this: Firstly, I don't just assume that miracles are impossible. The starting point is to be open to at least the possibility of them. The New Testament gospels can be shown to be reliable (see Craig's debate with Shabir Ally for example), and the various natural explanation for the empty tomb and resurrection appearances all fail. The resurrection is the best explanation. That's how we reason with regard to that.
@ukchristian28 This entire argument is based on hearsay evidence passed down, edited, translated, through generations. How is that reasonable evidence of anything? How is that evidence of the truth behind the resurrection any more than the ancient Egyptian religious writings validate their claims of Horus or Isis? It's exactly the same kind of evidence. This is the best evidence? This kind of evidence is not even admissible in court because of the inherent unreliability of hearsay.
So is most of ancient history. Are you going to say we can't know anything about the ancient world on that basis? I think it's time I did that video on hearsay evidence and how it doesn't apply to the study of ancient history. I will reply more tomorrow because I am getting tired. Goodnight.
@ukchristian28 No, I'm saying either we accept all the hearsay evidence which includes tales of Zeus, Odin, Osiris, and probably thousands of other so called gods depicted in ancient writing, or we put it all in the same category. When examining these claims we should approach them from the perspective of our current understanding of reality. Yes what we really can and do know should be where we start when we evaluate really anything.
@ukchristian28 Thanks for the conversation, I do appreciate your responses. I am not closed to the possibility of a god, or even your god. I really am trying to understand.
He also claims that God is done with the churches and that Satan is ruling them all and everyone needs to gather round the radio and listen to him. He makes himself the final authority when it comes to interpreting the Bible. That's the kind of thing cult leaders teach.
So, no, there is it not a case of him "just going one step further". He is completely out there in far more respects than that.
"This generation" would refer to the generation that would see the events being predicted" A slightly better what to cahnge the meaning is to say jesus was talking about the Jewish people or just Humanity in general. But like I said This still doesnt jive with Mat 16:28
Lack of evidence has never been a stumbling block for faith claims and failed prophesies. Many groups even gain more of a following like 7th day adventists or All Christians. Because Camping is as false a prophet as Jesus, The kingdom did NOT come has he predicted in Mark 13:30 , Mat 16:28 either. Christians use the backpedaling excuses like he was actually speaking about a spiritual transfiguration or that is was partially completed...
Oh really, that's nice. The fact still remains thought that "belief without evidence" is not a biblical definition of faith and is no a principle I hold to myself. If you want to have a go and have a go at a Christian who says they believe on blind faith then you have my support. Such people need need a kick up the bum.
I have already a lengthy discussion about both those passages. Matt 16:28 is talking about both those verses. Matt 16:28 is talking about the Transfiguration recorded in the next chapter. The verse doesn't say that any of the disciples would experience the actual event of Christ's return, only that they would "see the Son of man coming in his kingdom", which is exactly what they did see in the Transfiguration.
@ukchristian28 " Matt 16:28 is? talking about the Transfiguration recorded in the next chapter."
Right but its obviously not becuase the transfiguration is not the coming of the kingdom?
This is was jesus says in that verse is it not? Sound like you are saying that here the coming of the kingdom means a spritual occurance or somthing that happened in some hidden room?
I would suggest "This generation" would refer to the generation that would see the events being predicted. That makes perfect contextual sense in my view.
@ukchristian28 ""This generation" would refer to the generation that would see the events being predicted. "
1st it certainly doesnt sound like thats what he meant incontext He was speaking in front of those people? & Mat16:28 clarifys that people living then would not taste death till the kingdom came. So I I think you have to twist his words to make it mean somthing else. But your interpretion makes jesus look like usedcar sales man, Ofcourse it will happen to the generation it happens to.
Sigh, as I have already pointed out to others on this very video there is far more to it than that. Camping ignores context and allergorises verses in a completely arbitrary way and adds random numbers together having ascribed to them a significance that he dreamed up himself. That's not how any serious student of scripture (liberal or conservative) approaches the biblical text and if you don't know that, you're just pig ignorant.
pig ignorant would apply to anyone who actually believes in the superstitious fairy tales of the bible. And I can't even imagine the words serious student and scripture going together.
This is a good video. I think people and the media should not give this supposed prophet any more attention or reporting. He is obviously not speaking for God and is not a true prophet. Ignoring him and his claims would hopefully result in his silence. I am sure part of his motive is to get attention and recognition for himself. Read the Bible if you want to know the truth.
I agree, but the chances of the press leaving him alone are pretty remote in my view. It's sadly the kind lunacy that sells newspapers and brings high viewing ratings. The stupid and crazy is what gets the interest. That's why here on Youtube moderate Christians like Kabanethechristian, aaronk1994, AnglicanApologist72, TektonTV and myself struggle to get subscribers while VenomFangX, Nephilimfree and Gorilla199 get thousands. It's just the way it is sadly.
Camping, do you realize that you have just destroyed Christianity and the Bible with your crazy ideas? Do you realize you have played beautifully into the hands of those who want to wipe Christianity off the face of the earth forever? Nice job, preacher. Stay away from preachers and find God yourself. You don't need a bible thumper on a podium (or a radio station) to show you who Jesus is.
@SomethingReal1119 LoL, That's correct. From what I've seen Jesus is easy to find, you just pull out a piece of paper, draw up your own ideas of what you want him to be, and there you go!
This guy reminds me of Homer simpson in the episode where he predicts the end of the world. It's a tad sacreligious but fits perfectly with this context.
There is a clear pattern: The earliest gospel have Jesus say, that some of his followers will not die until he returns (strange that THAT does NOT clearly means what it says contrary to the verse which fits into your worldview)
The later gospel of John: "Do some of your followers not die until you return" Jesus: "None of your business" He could have said: "No. What I meant was this and this..."
And the latest document, the letter of "Peter" (which was written long after the lifetime of Jesus' disciple Peter) states: "No, of course it doesn't not mean that"
And this is obvious to everybody who is not willing to close their eyes to the facts.
First of all, there is no reason to believe that the apostle could not or did not write the two epistles ascribed to him. Secondly, you have not told me why Matt 16:28 couldn't refer to the Transfiguration. The verse doesn't say that Peter, James and John would experience the actual event, only that they would "see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" which is exactly what they did see during the Transfiguration event. You're just trying to create problems were none exist.
Talk about making assumptions. As I have argued none of the verses you cited necessitate us to believe that Jesus promised to return in the disciple's life time. The source of the rumour was what Jesus said to Peter in verse 22 of John 21, which was in answer to a question Jesus asked about John specifically. John explains what Jesus really said. I see no reason to think that John was doing anything more than clearing up a misunderstanding. If you think there is more to it, prove it.
"First of all, there is no reason to believe that the apostle could not or did not write the two epistles ascribed to him. "
Seriously?! Yes, there are a lot.
Okay, obviously you are not willing to acknowledge widly accepted biblical scholarship. So I see no reason to continue this discussion. Surely you are not willing to learn something if it contradicts outdated orthodox christian dogma. But of course you are nothing like Camping...
There are scholars who argue that, but arrogantly and dogmatically stating that only liberal opinions count is not something that I think is justified. If you want to make your arguments for that, than fine but please don't be arrogant about it.
@misfitfirdis1 Satan is no more real than god. This is just another reflection of what religion does to the minds of people. Once people are capable of believing things just because they want them to be true, they are capable of making up anything and believing it. It's truly very sad not to mention dangerous and potentially disastrous for the human race.
@AliburX I agree with "what religion does to peoples minds is not good" Religion is man made ,, God is a Reality,, I also believe that whatever a person depends on, or holds dearest is Thier god. Money,Education, Goverment and religion are all failing miserabily, Everyone believes in something, I choose Jesus Christ ,. Something didnt come from nothing, it was Created . Found it in Prayer not in church..There is a purpose a hope or theres nothing. Humanity is temp. Gods Forever
@misfitfirdis1 I've been reading the bible, and I have a very hard time understanding why anyone would put faith in this. I don't agree that whatever someone holds dearest is god. How are you defining god? Is god defined by each person? If so, doesn't that make the term 'god' complete nonsense when conversing with other human beings? Two people who use the same word to describe different things are not speaking the same language. God is imaginary, if that's forever, OK.
If something didn't come from nothing, where the heck did god come from? God, if it exists, is something therefore, given your something didn't come from nothing premise, god exist without some other cause either. So who's god's god? What about the god of the god that is god's god? You see the problem here? Isn't this just silly?
@AliburX Yeah apparently god has always existed. Its just when they say, 'something can't come from nothing, ever, at all, 100% of the time', they forget to add 'except god' at the end. Always makes me chuckle when loopholes and backtracks are used. Another reason I can't wait until October 21st to hear what Carry on Camping's excuse will be.
The problem with what you said there is that the view of God presented to begin with is one who is eternal and beyond time and space. So when the atheist ignorantly responds with "well who created God then?" and then goes on to accuse the theist of backpedalling, they are not interacting with the actual claim that was being made all along.
@ukchristian28 The view of god, and the claim being made varies from person to person. Even Christians can't decide on many aspects of their god which all the denominations proves. But these views are often changed to suit when an atheist makes a point or finds a hole in their argument. "God works in mysterious ways" is one I, and I'm sure other atheists hear often. Its cop out 101.
The view of God I just described is that of classical theism which is held to by many theists including Christian, Jews and Muslims. Usually when atheists respond with "well who made God then" it is because they misunderstand what this view of God actually teaches either because the theist hasn't explained it properly or the atheist hasn't listened properly. The theist therefore gets falsely accused of backpedaling.
@ukchristian28 In my experience its because the theist makes various assertions based on logic, or whatever else they want to include. They say that everything conceivable is subject to various rules, scientific laws etc without question. No if's but's or maybe's. Yet when questioned about it "Oh yeah, except god" is a popular answer. Its easy for theists to simply make up the answers as they go along because nothing has been proven.
If there was ever a time for me to bash my face againts my keyboard, it would be now. However, I don't see much of a point in doing that so I shall refrain. Harold Camping is a disgrace.
@adrenacrumb: I understand that your main understanding of Christianity is that "Jesus is going to come back and slaughter babies". Constantly repeating it is not convincing anyone. You are just sounding like you really know very little about Christianity. I have no problem with atheists or passionate religious discussion. It gets a little tiring when someone is arguing from ignorance, intolerance, and is just parroting ideas they heard elsewhere. I get enough of that from Fundamentalists.
@IMTWalrus01 The vast majority of Christians believe that. Ukchristian himself said all bible believing Christians believe that. Maybe there is an incredibly small percentage who don't so you can just assume I am not addressing those peopl.
@adrenacrumb: well, I guess we could discuss Stalin, or Mao, or Kim Jong-il, or any other fellow atheists who have shown that one doesn't need religion to slaughter. Or we could discuss the scientific improbability of order proceeding from entropy. I don't presume to know the nature of the universe. I guess I envy you wise folks who have it all figured out.
@IMTWalrus01 Wow. All you are doing is trying to divert from the argument, do you want me to believe that because certain atheists have killed people it is okay for Jesus and I shouldn't judge? That is one of the most flawed arguments I have ever seen in my life.
There is another logical fallacy you are committing. It's known as an appeal to outrage. "God judging people is just horrible" is not an argument. You need to actually show that God is being unjust. I would say that God bringing His judgement to bear upon a sinful world is perfectly just since people have broken all of His laws and shaken their fists at Him in rebellion.
@ukchristian28 Depends on your definition of horrible, the majority are good people who just didn't believe in Jesus. People need to suffer that much for believing in something they have never seen?
@ukchristian28 uh huh, so you do actually think Jesus is going to come back and slaughter everyone. That is absolutly dispicable. Nothing justifies that. Your God is nothing more than a bully and you are straight up retarded for believing a single word of the bible. You are a vile human being, worse than anyone else could ever be.
@ukchristian28 Are his standards higher? If you believe God is good in nature and can do no act that would be considered evil and that is our standard as well as God, then how can he do things we find utterly repulsive? Does he really just have a free card to do whatever he feels like and that he is able to do things which he has himself told people are evil? God's double standard is incredible isn't it?
@ukchristian28 Does it say in the bible that God told people that they should not act like him because he does what he wants and it's all good, but for them it is evil as hell?
I don't see any contradiction there. In the Bible God commands us to act justly. God is perfectly just in punishing people who break His law. If a judge sends a criminal to prison does the the criminal have any cause for complaint on the grounds that the judge wouldn't like someone sending him to prison?
@ukchristian28 How about that god isn't doing anything? They are just stories and there is no real evidence of ANY divinity. If we are rebellious people and there is a god, it's all gods fault in the first place for making us this way and he would have. Oh yeah, god gave us free will because he wanted us to get ourselves consigned to eternal torture, he must have, he totally saw it coming. This isn't ridiculous? What does it take to cross the line and become ridiculous?
@adrenacrumb: you might consider withdrawal. There are people who make a great argument against Christianity. You aren't one of them. Just like Christians cringe when a Harold Camping runs his mouth; humanists the world over are wishing you would quit trying to defend them. Unfortunately, we are judged by the most vocal members of our movements, no matter how poor a spokesperson that may be.
@IMTWalrus01 So what you are actually trying to argue is that there are atheists who think a Jewish guy coming back and slaughtering everyone on Earth until they choke on their own blood is a perfectly rational and warranted belief?
@IMTWalrus01 Really don't think I'm too far out of line in saying no athiest in the world would believe that is even close to being a rationally justified ideology to hold to.
Matthew 16:28 is a reference to the Transfiguration in the next chapter. That's the way Peter viewed it:
"For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased" (1 Peter 1:16-17).
So "Peter" or actually the guy who wrote this letter saw that the world didn't end like Jesus predicted and stated that those words clearly don't mean what they say. How is that ANY different than what Camping did?
BTW this passage was interpreted differently by some Christians: Some thought some of the people that Jesus was talking to must still be alive (look up "wandering jew" on wikipedia).
Peter along with James and John had a vision of Christ in glory. That fits perfectly well with what Jesus said in Matt 16:28 and it doesn't require any after the fact parsing of the sort Camping engaged in. In the vision they saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. Only those desperate to find problems would take issue with that.
I am currently rethinking my eschatology but at the moment I would suggest that "this generation" refers to the the generation that would witnessed the events Jesus fortold. It would hardly make sense for Jesus to say that He would return the life time of the disciples and then go onto say that no even He knew the day or the hour of His return (verse 36), unless you are going to be unreasonable enough to suggest that Jesus forgot what he said seconds before.
Redefining the word "generation" doesn't help with the quoted passage, because he didn't use the word here. He says "some of you" not "this generation shall not pass away" like in other passages.
Jesus also says he does not know the day and the hour. How does this in any way contradict the notion that he will come back in the lifetime of his followers? I know I will die during this century, but I don't know the date.
Unreasonable? Of course, but isn't this what you Christians believe? That Jesus will come back during your lifetime, but you don't know exactly when?
Harold is no different than every church in the USA.......you ask the leaders of all the churches in this country and 99% of them will tell you the end is almost here......Camping is just a scape goat
nigelbruce232 1 month ago
@nigelbruce232
99%? What are you basing that figure on? There are a lot of popular preachers who think that Jesus' return is very near. I am not closed to the possibility that they are correct. However very few of them would be foolish enough to set a date or use the ridiculous methods of interpretation Camping used.
ukchristian28 1 month ago
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Harold Camping makes the perfect mascot for religion:
older than dirt, insanely-deluded with magic superstitions, overstayed his welcome, and dying slowly after thoroughly shaming himself.
TheAnniepies 4 months ago
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The world will end in the year 2020. See the Aimed At America 1 video because there are too many parallels for this prophecy to be wrong!
vincent15641 4 months ago
2000 yrs of Christians proclaiming the End of the world and you point & laugh @ Harold?
petarphyle 5 months ago
@petarphyle
Sure,and I would have laughed at the other preachers who set a date too.
ukchristian28 1 month ago
@ukchristian28 SO people proclaiming that the end of the world, COMING SOON, is ok?
Just don't afix a date to it, amirite?
petarphyle 1 month ago
Harold sign up with the Jehovah Witnesses they too have a long string of failed end time predictions.
murtlemcturtle 7 months ago
Whenever Camping was faced with the whole "no man knows the date or the time", all he did was push it aside saying "Oh, God didn't want them to know back then but He wants us to know now."
What a brilliant, air-tight defense.
Konanarian 7 months ago
"This arrogant little man continues to bring ridicule to the Christian faith..."
Honestly, the Christian faith doesn't need the likes of Camping to be seen as ridiculous.
RPFS2008 7 months ago
@RPFS2008 That is true.. to people who are only worldly-minded, all things of the spirit are only foolishness. People have been ridiculing religion as long as there has been religions, and Christianity is one faith out of so many thousands.. for those people who cannot even perceive more than they can hold or personally witness, all faiths are nonsense to them. That is why when people do discover faith, it is often described has their eyes being opened.. they were completely blind to faith.
Mikanojo 7 months ago
@Mikanojo
You can try to dress it up all you like but believing that someone rose from the dead 2000 years ago is ridiculous.
And it get's worse. Why do people have faith that this occured? because they have faith that the Bibical manuscripts, which were not even written by eyewitnesses, do not agree with each other on pretty important aspects, and are not the originals, are reliable.
It's a sorry state of affairs in the 21st Century.
RPFS2008 7 months ago
@RPFS2008 far from 'dressing up' any thing, the truth is that Christianity has survived quite well into the 21st century. But with any religion comes zealots who lose common sense, pretenders, and opportunists who seek political power and / or fame for themselves - this is human nature.. we have the option for good or evil.. some choose evil. Of course you are welcome to try and reinforce your own faith in random chance accidental life, but some of us see evidence of an intelligent design.
Mikanojo 7 months ago
@RPFS2008 And just to correct your misstatement, the 4 Gospels within the Bible actually DO claim to be eyewitness accounts, written by people who lived with, spoke with, worked with the man known as Christ. But do you believe the testimony of 4 witnesses that agree? Or do you deny them all because what they wrote is more incredible than anything you have personally ever witnessed? Read it for yourself and decide for yourself. Do NOT follow ministers, instead find and follow God.
Mikanojo 7 months ago
@Mikanojo
We can nip this in the bud.
The Gospels do not claim to be written by eyewitnesses nor do they claim to be written by the the persons whose name is in the title. They are annonymous. Mathew did not write the Gospel of Mathew, and so on.
RPFS2008 7 months ago
@RPFS2008 The Gospels in fact DO claim to be eyewitness accounts.. either you have not actually read them, or you choose to deny them for your own reasons.. Do not worry, i am not trying to open your eyes to any belief beyond what you can feel comfortable grasping. But even if you look at the Bible as if it were fiction.. like Harry Potter.. Mr. Camping cannot get his facts straight.. he is trying to rewrite the story to suit himself. As if someone were claiming Harry was a muggle.
Mikanojo 7 months ago
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ElectricInvaders 7 months ago
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@Mikanojo
I'd love for you to show that to be the case, considering you're going against academia
"Do not worry, i am not trying to open your eyes to any belief beyond what you can feel comfortable grasping"
And this is a typically lazy response. You're really in no position to attempt to patronise others.
RPFS2008 7 months ago
@Mikanojo
And they weren't even written in Aramaic.
RPFS2008 7 months ago
@RPFS2008 Actually very little of the Bible was Aramaic.. Paul wrote entirely in Greek and the whole of the Old Testament is written in Hebrew. Where ever you are collecting your strange beliefs from, it seems as much a fantasy as what Mr. Camping has dreamed up. Maybe you should write your own exposition.. tell us all about it o prophet of random dumb luck! lol
Mikanojo 7 months ago
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What’s all this nonsense about the Rapture ‘not happening’? I myself was Raptured up into heaven on May 21st, an experience I will never forget.
It was beautiful to behold. I danced with lovely angels. The Holy Spirit came before me, opened up my body & inspired me from within with its great light of Truth.
In the end, God said I had to return to earth to cleanse mankind of its sin- that’s right, WE ARE TOO SINFUL FOR RAPTURE, but you now have a 2nd chance. You all need to listen to ME.
SuperTruth77 7 months ago
Well then get the magic captain of your club, the one that knows all and does all to wave their magic heretic buster and then you can all pray happily together ever after. I mean they do have the power correct. And if not close your club and stop making those kind of people in my world before I NEED to deal with them.
alanjavis 7 months ago
@alanjavis
That sounds like a "waaah waaah World" comment to me:
watch?v=eZIrEb177rk&feature=related
watch?v=ehqHQWLB1xI
ukchristian28 7 months ago
@alanjavis I understand what you are saying, but you really seem to misunderstand the whole situation. Just as there are good, noble, devoted, wise, loving people who are Christians, there are also demented, misguided, self-seeking monsters who also claim to be Christians.. and the 'club' as you call it is really not connected at all.. for ever church that teaches scripture there is another church that teaches lies.. we do not get to CHOOSE what other people claim about themselves -->
Mikanojo 7 months ago
@alanjavis --> for those who do ever learn much real Bible scripture, without that to compare with how the so-called Christians act it can some times be so very hard to tell the angels from the demons.. understand first that we are all sinners, all weak in some ways, but know that some of us are doing our best to learn from the Bible, while others seek to reinterpret it in favor of their own selfish desires.
Mikanojo 7 months ago
Remove them and all of that type from your club and yes I would add that too the equation. Clubs that don't clean their owns houses need others to do it. Simple and excuses for them only make it worse, just like police forces with bad cops. Ever hear that one bad apple spoils the whole barrel.
alanjavis 7 months ago
@alanjavis
Harold Camping and Westboro are not in my "club". I am not a member of Westboro Baptist Church and I don't subscribe to Family Radio. What am I supposed to do? Zap them with my heretic buster? I can't stop them doing and saying the things that they do. All I can do is speak out against them which I have.
ukchristian28 7 months ago
geeeeee what a great club you all belong too with the WBC and raping priests and harold camping and other kooks. Think I'll pass...
alanjavis 7 months ago
@alanjavis
And the fact that such people are a minority among us and the rest of us condemn them wouldn't enter into the equation for you?
ukchristian28 7 months ago
Imagine if a guy said this: "I totally believe that Elivs is still alive. He is actually an Alien, and will come back to this planet on May 22nd, 2011". What would your response be? Would you say "Lol, you so stupid, you can't know the date!" Or would you say "Lol, you so stupid, Elvis is dead!"?
Thought so.
lagerbaer 7 months ago
@lagerbaer
If they could demonstrate that Elvis is alive and that he is an alien, then I wouldn't dismiss it. The problem is that they wouldn't be able to. Elvis did not perform miracles, predict the future or rise from the dead. Elvis did not fulfill any promises. Jesus on the other hand did, and the evidence that He rose from the dead is pretty amazing. Since Jesus came good in the past I can be confident he will come good in the future. So, I would say that that's a bad comparison.
ukchristian28 7 months ago
@ukchristian28 Miracles are not a requirement of Aliens. His voice was not from this world, so there is a good case that he might be an alien :-P And we have photography and videos showing him. From Jesus, we have only third- to fourth-hand accounts written some decades after his alleged resurrection. You call that amazing evidence? No. If you believe in the rapture and all that, you are just as crazy as camping. The mere act of putting a date on it doesn't add or remove much from the crazieness
lagerbaer 7 months ago
if you believe in bloody bronze age mythology, you are in the same boat as harold and WBC.
thousandlegger 7 months ago
@thousandlegger
The books of the New Testament were written in the first century AD. I wasn't aware thatt tha was the bronze age.
ukchristian28 7 months ago
@ukchristian28 there are obviously a lot of things you aren't aware of.
thousandlegger 7 months ago
I am coming to think that maybe we shold adjust our fraud laws to allow the prosecution of such wicked men.
VictorLepanto 8 months ago
@devante11
okay
withwingss 8 months ago
Its sad that all his followers quit their jobs and such.......................but I am not really feeling sorry for them because we are not to fallow man. Men are sinners and if you put your faith in a man he will surly let you down..........
withwingss 8 months ago
@withwingss
Men dont let you down..science has doubled your lifespan
On the other hand, look up prayer deaths, where people with the most unwavering faith in a imaginary being called your god failed epically :)..with children dieing of simple symptoms, that could have been cured with a simple outpatient procedure.you got to laugh though, one kid drowned in his own urine.you see that is what faith does makes you brain dead
Trust in man, trust in science. it gives you hope with evidence :)
devante11 8 months ago
@withwingss
But if you are talking about this sad man in the video...he is the same as you ...he just put a date on it......you just believe no one knows the date..so you are just as he is-------->>brain dead
devante11 8 months ago
I like Harold Camping. He's destroying religion with his beliefs. Everybody knows Christians are the biggest hypocrites. That's why many of them go around preaching the parables of Jesus on Sunday and then preaching hate on Monday. I thought Jesus hated hypocrites. HA! HA!
Samael51760 8 months ago
@Samael51760
Could you please be a little more specific as to what you are talking about? Preaching hate how? What hypocritcal behaviour are you talking about and are you sure all Christians are guilty of it?
ukchristian28 8 months ago
@ukchristian28 I'm not saying all Christians are hypocrites. But many are. Many Nazis called themselves Christian. Many KKK members and other racists who wouldn't mind killing non-Christians and minorities are Christians. Many of the biggest homophobic gay bashers are Christians, etc. People who believe that all non-Christians will go hell, despite being good people, are hypocrites.
Samael51760 8 months ago
@Samael51760
Ok a few things. I don't think I would recognise the KKK or "Christian" neo-Nazis as being authentically Christian since what they practice and what they are focused on is not the person of Jesus Christ but their racist agendas. Secondly the word "homophobic" has always seemed someone nonsensical to me. Not everyone who is critical of homosexual relations is afraid of gay people. Finally how is taking Jesus at His word (John 14:6) hypocritical?
ukchristian28 8 months ago
Thank you for this video. I'm more than disappointed, I'm angry bc these folks are just stiff-necked. I would call them sheep, but most sheep aren't this loyal to continue in such folly. I just wanted to thank you for putting out the word that these type of false prophets put Christ to an open shame, and true believers should stand up and say what a disgrace it is. They simply want to be right, over wanting to conform themselves to the Word of God.
InformedTexasVoter 8 months ago
So....Thunderf00t has now described Camping as a "Genuine Biblical scholar", and misused this 'prophecy' to discredit all of Biblical scholarship.
How predictable.
KingsIndianCR 9 months ago
@KingsIndianCR
Has he? I haven't listened to what Thunderf00t has to say on this. I am not surprised to hear it though. Thunderf00t is clueless when it comes to anything other than science.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 Yes, he has: /watch?v=rTaW-xFaGw0
I agree entirely. What he's doing is like describing Kent Hovind as a "genuine scientist", pointing out the flaws in his claims, and using that to justify dismissing all of science.
KingsIndianCR 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 is it that Thunderf00t is clueless about anything other than science or are you just clueless about anything other than religion.
Mr420TheBlaze 7 months ago
@ukchristian28 Isn't it funny how you christians are always at each other about one another being false versions of yourselfs. You would have thought if the bible had come from god and he had sent down his son to deliver it he would have ensured that his message was consistent so that you could all agree. There is no different from you or the WBC you both derive your "truth" from an ancient bronze text and both assert that you understand it better than the other. What makes you right?
vohshkab 7 months ago
@ukchristian28 So you are feeling pretty pleased with yourself because your version of christianity has been vindicated because of Campings false prophecy? I have news for you he doesn't see it that way - you are both as deluded as one another - that is all that his failure proves - not that your own smug and watered down version of christianity (over liberalised and intellectualised Cof E to the point of apathy) can scoff at the immature and foolish rantings of the evangelists. cntd ...
vohshkab 7 months ago
@ukchristian28 I actually have more respect for him than you - at least he has the force of his convictions - you intellectualise and meander around criticism by presenting a respectable version of christianity. I am sure you have heard this a hundred times before but you and he have one thing in common you draw your legitimacy from an ancient txt written by goat herders ...
vohshkab 7 months ago
I think some people very much want to live in "important" times. To witness such fundamental miraculous events which would turn the world upside down also heightens one's own importance: "I predicted this, it's me and my generation who receive the grace to be witness". These prophets are longing to be recognized and worshipped, there are very basic human aspirations involved - no matter if they are deliberate or unconscious.
eltamin1966 9 months ago
Well now they can say that Family Radio is a 100 percent non-prophet organization!
Username0fMine 9 months ago 2
You can point the finger at people like Camping (and there are many other charlatans like him) but he would not have the money, power and authority if people of faith didn't give that to him. People of faith need to be more discerning and not assume honesty simply because these people appear religious (it's a bit like giving them an instant "get out of jail" card). For this reason this guy has duped people on more than one occasion now and will continue to do so.
uncleboring 9 months ago
@uncleboring
Which is why I sometimes make videos criticising Christians for doing stupid or immoral things.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 That is a very good thing, certainly Christians don't do this enough. I am an ex-pentecostalist now atheist but I can see the radicalised elements of Christianity (like this) doing damage to the more moderate branches of Christianity.
uncleboring 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 Are you a personal supporter of eternal torture for non-believers? Do you believe the rapture will happen? Do you believe in zombie Jesus? If so, what exactly is the difference between a "moderate" Christian and this camping guy other than he just decided to go one small step further and put a date on it?
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
Firstly, you may be a fundy atheist if you insist on using ridiculous phrases like "zombie Jesus". I believe in that God bodily rose Jesus to life in glorified form.
I believe in eternal punishment but not literal hell fire. This video by TektonTV explains my view: watch?v=-q5vGcpx1sY&feature=channel_video_title Camping actually believes in annihilationism.
I believe in the future bodily return of Christ but am unsure of all the details.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 I'm sorry, I'm not a fundy anything, but I have seen a few zombie movies and that's how I refer to people who rise from the grave, it's an accurate description. I don't understand why people believe things like this. As soon as you can suspend reason and believe anything, well, you are then a person who is capable of suspending reason and believing anything. How is Camping really any different from any other true believer? His beliefs have as much backing them as any religion.
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
Really? You saw movies where people were raised in glorified form in the same way Jesus is said to be raised? Somehow I don't think so.
I see you are very long on assertions but very short on any actual points.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 I also have to ask, why? Why would you believe any of that? So you completely believe everything this guy camping believes, for the same reasons, but you just don't want to put a date on it. How is this different? It's exactly the same story.
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
I have already pointed out the differences in the way Camping approaches Bible study and how serious Bible students approach it. I am not repeating myself. Go back and look at what I said.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 Yeah, but see, I'm studying the bible too, and perhaps you can help direct me because the more I work on it, the less I understand why anyone would really believe it. The more I learn about it, the more I am disturbed by 21st century people using 12th century thinking to direct behavior and solve problems. I understand the social construct and intimidation involved. What I don't understand is how people can directly deny reality. Mind boggling really.
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
What you talking about when you say "denying reality"? Could you name some examples please.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 Well, I suppose that depends on your flavor of Christianity, but only in terms of the number of denials. Beliefs that directly deny real experience, such as resurrection, young earth theory, the entire genesis story, everything that does not happen in anyone's experience, ever, all deny reality. For this reason alone, we should be more than skeptical of those claims. Put into context, it is easy to assume they are simply not true, as real as the Arabian Nights tales or Grimms.
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
Young earth creationism is pretty indensible on scientific and biblical grounds. That's why I reject it. The entire Genesis story?
Who says that no one has experienced miracles? The eye witness testimony of the gospels is evidnce of the resurrection which can't be dismissed as easily as that. I would agree though that we should always look for natural explanations first, since they are the norm.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 I can't say for certain no one has ever experienced a miracle because I have not personally witnessed everyone's experience. However, as you've stated, we should look for natural explanations first and there is nothing I have seen or read that defies natural explanations. There is no evidence of miracles. Just like there is no evidence of Valhalla. These things are in the same category as god or unicorns. There is no good reason to believe any of it any of it is real at all.
AliburX 9 months ago
@ukchristian28
One of your quotes, I had to laugh ....
"And what counts as valid evidence in your view? Multiple eye witness testimony doesn't count? If not, why not?"
eye witness accounts LOL first of all you dont have eyewitness accounts ..you have hand me downs orally changed over time, then written down by non eyewitnesses...further more eyewitnesses are the worse evidence you can have......dna best way to go
but seeing you go on faith in men telling you about it all good luck ..lol
devante11 8 months ago
Right, I do apologize, you did qualify that you have a tempered down version of eternal torture. You must understand that to someone looking into these religions from the outside, it all sounds equally illegitimate.
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
Well that's their fault for not looking into it properly.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 Ok, what is properly? How should I look at this? I'm really trying.
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
And who says it's a tempered down version? Suffering eternal shame might be as bad or worse than suffering physical pain.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 OK, so your vision of hell is just as abhorrent and objectionable as Camping's. This kinda speaks to my original point that perhaps your beliefs and his are pretty much the same or at least on equal grounds.
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
And that is just an appeal to outrage. Talk to you tomorrow:).
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 Yeah, um, because it's outrageous, just like Camping's claims. How can you justify such a fundamentally important set of beliefs based on nothing more than 2000 year old goat herder fairy tales? Is the concept of mortality really that scary? Instead of just accepting that we actually die we have to lie to ourselves and tell ourselves stories? What's more, we have to make people enemies before even meeting them because we vocally condemn them all for all eternity? That's crazy
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
If you listened to this video and the one I posted last Saturday it should be pretty clear what the difference is. Camping didn't just "go one step further". The way in which he forms his conclusions about what he thinks the Bible teaches involves completely ignoring the original context, allegorising in the most arbritary fashion and adding up random numbers having given them a significance that he dreamed up himself.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 It seems to me, that by simply accepting claims that are completely contrary to all known reality such as resurrection, you are doing exactly the same thing as camping. You are both just choosing to believe something because you want to. I've been studying the bible itself and the history of how it came about in an attempt to better understand. I can see where it came from, how it's spread, etc, but the book itself really is just full of old fairy tales.
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
First of all could you provide some justification for your assertion that supernatural events like the resurrection would be "contrary to known reality". Just assuming metaphysical naturalism without any backing is not an argument and I really wish people like yourself would come to understand that. I am also not believing anything "just because I want to". Where do you get off making assumptions like that about people? Christianity is defensible.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 People do not get up after they are dead. I would say that's understood by everyone, everywhere, isn't it? Do you have a different opinion about this that people who die occasionally get back up? All the evidence that exists, points to the fact that people die so I accept that as reality. If you don't believe it because you want to then why? Why are you a Christian? Really? The only real reason that all the believers ever give me ultimately comes down to they just want to.
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
So what it comes down to is you assume the natural world is all that exists and use to argue that miracles never happen or are impossible. That's really circular.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 Not at all, but I do not pre-suppose that I understand the supernatural world in any way and I do not assume that my ancestors did either. When I studied where the bible came from, how it was written, how the religion spread, it makes perfect sense. There is zero evidence of any divine assistance. Do you accept genie magic as equally valid? What about Harry Potter? I don't deny Harry Potter could exist since there is no evidence to the contrary, but I do not believe he's real
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
Saying "do you believe in Harry Potter too?" is just silly. If something doesn't claim to be anything other than a work of fiction, it's obviously not a very good comparison.
And what counts as valid evidence in your view? Multiple eye witness testimony doesn't count? If not, why not?
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 It's not eye witness. Eye witness testimony requires a living eye witness. Even so, if someone came to you and told you they saw their Aunt rise from the grave, would you believe them? Even if it was someone you trusted? Would you just accept that claim with zero doubt? Accept it to the point where you are willing to inform your actions by what your friend says because they witnessed this miracle? That is a reasonable way to approach life?
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
The reasoning to argue for the ressurection goes like this: Firstly, I don't just assume that miracles are impossible. The starting point is to be open to at least the possibility of them. The New Testament gospels can be shown to be reliable (see Craig's debate with Shabir Ally for example), and the various natural explanation for the empty tomb and resurrection appearances all fail. The resurrection is the best explanation. That's how we reason with regard to that.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 This entire argument is based on hearsay evidence passed down, edited, translated, through generations. How is that reasonable evidence of anything? How is that evidence of the truth behind the resurrection any more than the ancient Egyptian religious writings validate their claims of Horus or Isis? It's exactly the same kind of evidence. This is the best evidence? This kind of evidence is not even admissible in court because of the inherent unreliability of hearsay.
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
So is most of ancient history. Are you going to say we can't know anything about the ancient world on that basis? I think it's time I did that video on hearsay evidence and how it doesn't apply to the study of ancient history. I will reply more tomorrow because I am getting tired. Goodnight.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 No, I'm saying either we accept all the hearsay evidence which includes tales of Zeus, Odin, Osiris, and probably thousands of other so called gods depicted in ancient writing, or we put it all in the same category. When examining these claims we should approach them from the perspective of our current understanding of reality. Yes what we really can and do know should be where we start when we evaluate really anything.
AliburX 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 Thanks for the conversation, I do appreciate your responses. I am not closed to the possibility of a god, or even your god. I really am trying to understand.
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
He also claims that God is done with the churches and that Satan is ruling them all and everyone needs to gather round the radio and listen to him. He makes himself the final authority when it comes to interpreting the Bible. That's the kind of thing cult leaders teach.
So, no, there is it not a case of him "just going one step further". He is completely out there in far more respects than that.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
the rapture didn't commence, the guy is still here and killing me with his monotone delivery .
clownprince88 9 months ago
He's a jewish his mum was in the halocaust he even admitted he's steeling people money with his may 21st stickers
KAZEEMA91 9 months ago
" actual event of Christ's return, only that they would "see the Son of man coming in his kingdom", "
Well jesus already told them what the coming of the kingdom entailed. in Mark13 by this time no?
Greathiway 9 months ago
"This guy is CRAZY!!! It's coming TOMORROW NOT YESTERDAY!!!"
lol. you people crack me the fuck up.
onlywhenprovoked 9 months ago
@onlywhenprovoked
Lol, not as much as you crack me up.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
"This generation" would refer to the generation that would see the events being predicted" A slightly better what to cahnge the meaning is to say jesus was talking about the Jewish people or just Humanity in general. But like I said This still doesnt jive with Mat 16:28
Greathiway 9 months ago
Lack of evidence has never been a stumbling block for faith claims and failed prophesies. Many groups even gain more of a following like 7th day adventists or All Christians. Because Camping is as false a prophet as Jesus, The kingdom did NOT come has he predicted in Mark 13:30 , Mat 16:28 either. Christians use the backpedaling excuses like he was actually speaking about a spiritual transfiguration or that is was partially completed...
Greathiway 9 months ago
@Greathiway
Oh really, that's nice. The fact still remains thought that "belief without evidence" is not a biblical definition of faith and is no a principle I hold to myself. If you want to have a go and have a go at a Christian who says they believe on blind faith then you have my support. Such people need need a kick up the bum.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 "is not a biblical definition of faith "
Call it what ever you like, As I understand there are atleast two way the NT uses that word.
Greathiway 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 " If you want to have a go and have a go at a Christian who says they believe on blind faith"
Well Many (even liberal x-tians)do use faith as a last defense when the see a belief is indefenable or unreasonable.
Greathiway 9 months ago
@Greathiway
I have already a lengthy discussion about both those passages. Matt 16:28 is talking about both those verses. Matt 16:28 is talking about the Transfiguration recorded in the next chapter. The verse doesn't say that any of the disciples would experience the actual event of Christ's return, only that they would "see the Son of man coming in his kingdom", which is exactly what they did see in the Transfiguration.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 " Matt 16:28 is? talking about the Transfiguration recorded in the next chapter."
Right but its obviously not becuase the transfiguration is not the coming of the kingdom?
This is was jesus says in that verse is it not? Sound like you are saying that here the coming of the kingdom means a spritual occurance or somthing that happened in some hidden room?
Greathiway 9 months ago
@Greathiway
I would suggest "This generation" would refer to the generation that would see the events being predicted. That makes perfect contextual sense in my view.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 ""This generation" would refer to the generation that would see the events being predicted. "
1st it certainly doesnt sound like thats what he meant incontext He was speaking in front of those people? & Mat16:28 clarifys that people living then would not taste death till the kingdom came. So I I think you have to twist his words to make it mean somthing else. But your interpretion makes jesus look like usedcar sales man, Ofcourse it will happen to the generation it happens to.
Greathiway 9 months ago
Finally! Something that Atheists and Christians can agree on ;)
s8ntmark 9 months ago
"That is not how to do Bible study." Not by a long shot.
OCaoimhghin 9 months ago
most christians think the same thing as Camping, he only added a date.you believe in the rapture you are just as wacky as he is.
shagnasty714 9 months ago
@shagnasty714
Sigh, as I have already pointed out to others on this very video there is far more to it than that. Camping ignores context and allergorises verses in a completely arbitrary way and adds random numbers together having ascribed to them a significance that he dreamed up himself. That's not how any serious student of scripture (liberal or conservative) approaches the biblical text and if you don't know that, you're just pig ignorant.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28
pig ignorant would apply to anyone who actually believes in the superstitious fairy tales of the bible. And I can't even imagine the words serious student and scripture going together.
shagnasty714 9 months ago
This is a good video. I think people and the media should not give this supposed prophet any more attention or reporting. He is obviously not speaking for God and is not a true prophet. Ignoring him and his claims would hopefully result in his silence. I am sure part of his motive is to get attention and recognition for himself. Read the Bible if you want to know the truth.
crskirk 9 months ago
@crskirk
I agree, but the chances of the press leaving him alone are pretty remote in my view. It's sadly the kind lunacy that sells newspapers and brings high viewing ratings. The stupid and crazy is what gets the interest. That's why here on Youtube moderate Christians like Kabanethechristian, aaronk1994, AnglicanApologist72, TektonTV and myself struggle to get subscribers while VenomFangX, Nephilimfree and Gorilla199 get thousands. It's just the way it is sadly.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
Camping, do you realize that you have just destroyed Christianity and the Bible with your crazy ideas? Do you realize you have played beautifully into the hands of those who want to wipe Christianity off the face of the earth forever? Nice job, preacher. Stay away from preachers and find God yourself. You don't need a bible thumper on a podium (or a radio station) to show you who Jesus is.
SomethingReal1119 9 months ago
@SomethingReal1119 LoL, That's correct. From what I've seen Jesus is easy to find, you just pull out a piece of paper, draw up your own ideas of what you want him to be, and there you go!
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX Naaah, sorry; it doesn't work that way, either. ;0)
SomethingReal1119 9 months ago
This guy reminds me of Homer simpson in the episode where he predicts the end of the world. It's a tad sacreligious but fits perfectly with this context.
catholiccontriversy 9 months ago
There is a clear pattern: The earliest gospel have Jesus say, that some of his followers will not die until he returns (strange that THAT does NOT clearly means what it says contrary to the verse which fits into your worldview)
The later gospel of John: "Do some of your followers not die until you return" Jesus: "None of your business" He could have said: "No. What I meant was this and this..."
MARI0LAND 9 months ago
@MARI0LAND
And the latest document, the letter of "Peter" (which was written long after the lifetime of Jesus' disciple Peter) states: "No, of course it doesn't not mean that"
And this is obvious to everybody who is not willing to close their eyes to the facts.
MARI0LAND 9 months ago
@MARI0LAND
First of all, there is no reason to believe that the apostle could not or did not write the two epistles ascribed to him. Secondly, you have not told me why Matt 16:28 couldn't refer to the Transfiguration. The verse doesn't say that Peter, James and John would experience the actual event, only that they would "see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" which is exactly what they did see during the Transfiguration event. You're just trying to create problems were none exist.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ML
Talk about making assumptions. As I have argued none of the verses you cited necessitate us to believe that Jesus promised to return in the disciple's life time. The source of the rumour was what Jesus said to Peter in verse 22 of John 21, which was in answer to a question Jesus asked about John specifically. John explains what Jesus really said. I see no reason to think that John was doing anything more than clearing up a misunderstanding. If you think there is more to it, prove it.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28
"First of all, there is no reason to believe that the apostle could not or did not write the two epistles ascribed to him. "
Seriously?! Yes, there are a lot.
Okay, obviously you are not willing to acknowledge widly accepted biblical scholarship. So I see no reason to continue this discussion. Surely you are not willing to learn something if it contradicts outdated orthodox christian dogma. But of course you are nothing like Camping...
MARI0LAND 9 months ago
@MARI0LAND
There are scholars who argue that, but arrogantly and dogmatically stating that only liberal opinions count is not something that I think is justified. If you want to make your arguments for that, than fine but please don't be arrogant about it.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@MARI0LAND
"Liberal scholars say it, I believe it, end of story". No need to argue about anything, right?:).
ukchristian28 9 months ago
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misfitfirdis1 9 months ago
@misfitfirdis1 Satan is no more real than god. This is just another reflection of what religion does to the minds of people. Once people are capable of believing things just because they want them to be true, they are capable of making up anything and believing it. It's truly very sad not to mention dangerous and potentially disastrous for the human race.
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX I agree with "what religion does to peoples minds is not good" Religion is man made ,, God is a Reality,, I also believe that whatever a person depends on, or holds dearest is Thier god. Money,Education, Goverment and religion are all failing miserabily, Everyone believes in something, I choose Jesus Christ ,. Something didnt come from nothing, it was Created . Found it in Prayer not in church..There is a purpose a hope or theres nothing. Humanity is temp. Gods Forever
misfitfirdis1 9 months ago
@misfitfirdis1 I've been reading the bible, and I have a very hard time understanding why anyone would put faith in this. I don't agree that whatever someone holds dearest is god. How are you defining god? Is god defined by each person? If so, doesn't that make the term 'god' complete nonsense when conversing with other human beings? Two people who use the same word to describe different things are not speaking the same language. God is imaginary, if that's forever, OK.
AliburX 9 months ago
Comment removed
misfitfirdis1 9 months ago
If something didn't come from nothing, where the heck did god come from? God, if it exists, is something therefore, given your something didn't come from nothing premise, god exist without some other cause either. So who's god's god? What about the god of the god that is god's god? You see the problem here? Isn't this just silly?
AliburX 9 months ago
@AliburX
the very fact that we are here to even discuss this is a satire to end all satires
clownprince88 9 months ago
@AliburX Yeah apparently god has always existed. Its just when they say, 'something can't come from nothing, ever, at all, 100% of the time', they forget to add 'except god' at the end. Always makes me chuckle when loopholes and backtracks are used. Another reason I can't wait until October 21st to hear what Carry on Camping's excuse will be.
Linkacious1 9 months ago
@Linkacious1
The problem with what you said there is that the view of God presented to begin with is one who is eternal and beyond time and space. So when the atheist ignorantly responds with "well who created God then?" and then goes on to accuse the theist of backpedalling, they are not interacting with the actual claim that was being made all along.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 The view of god, and the claim being made varies from person to person. Even Christians can't decide on many aspects of their god which all the denominations proves. But these views are often changed to suit when an atheist makes a point or finds a hole in their argument. "God works in mysterious ways" is one I, and I'm sure other atheists hear often. Its cop out 101.
Linkacious1 9 months ago
@Linkacious1
The view of God I just described is that of classical theism which is held to by many theists including Christian, Jews and Muslims. Usually when atheists respond with "well who made God then" it is because they misunderstand what this view of God actually teaches either because the theist hasn't explained it properly or the atheist hasn't listened properly. The theist therefore gets falsely accused of backpedaling.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 In my experience its because the theist makes various assertions based on logic, or whatever else they want to include. They say that everything conceivable is subject to various rules, scientific laws etc without question. No if's but's or maybe's. Yet when questioned about it "Oh yeah, except god" is a popular answer. Its easy for theists to simply make up the answers as they go along because nothing has been proven.
Linkacious1 9 months ago
If there was ever a time for me to bash my face againts my keyboard, it would be now. However, I don't see much of a point in doing that so I shall refrain. Harold Camping is a disgrace.
TheAerochick13 9 months ago
@adrenacrumb: I understand that your main understanding of Christianity is that "Jesus is going to come back and slaughter babies". Constantly repeating it is not convincing anyone. You are just sounding like you really know very little about Christianity. I have no problem with atheists or passionate religious discussion. It gets a little tiring when someone is arguing from ignorance, intolerance, and is just parroting ideas they heard elsewhere. I get enough of that from Fundamentalists.
IMTWalrus01 9 months ago
@IMTWalrus01 The vast majority of Christians believe that. Ukchristian himself said all bible believing Christians believe that. Maybe there is an incredibly small percentage who don't so you can just assume I am not addressing those peopl.
adrenacrumb 9 months ago
@adrenacrumb: well, I guess we could discuss Stalin, or Mao, or Kim Jong-il, or any other fellow atheists who have shown that one doesn't need religion to slaughter. Or we could discuss the scientific improbability of order proceeding from entropy. I don't presume to know the nature of the universe. I guess I envy you wise folks who have it all figured out.
IMTWalrus01 9 months ago
@IMTWalrus01 Wow. All you are doing is trying to divert from the argument, do you want me to believe that because certain atheists have killed people it is okay for Jesus and I shouldn't judge? That is one of the most flawed arguments I have ever seen in my life.
adrenacrumb 9 months ago
@adrenacrumb
There is another logical fallacy you are committing. It's known as an appeal to outrage. "God judging people is just horrible" is not an argument. You need to actually show that God is being unjust. I would say that God bringing His judgement to bear upon a sinful world is perfectly just since people have broken all of His laws and shaken their fists at Him in rebellion.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 Mate, the entire thing is ludicrous, it's absolutely futile, doesn't matter who it happens to.
adrenacrumb 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 Depends on your definition of horrible, the majority are good people who just didn't believe in Jesus. People need to suffer that much for believing in something they have never seen?
adrenacrumb 9 months ago
@adrenacrumb
"Good people" by whose standards? I am sorry, but God's standards are somewhat higher than yours.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 uh huh, so you do actually think Jesus is going to come back and slaughter everyone. That is absolutly dispicable. Nothing justifies that. Your God is nothing more than a bully and you are straight up retarded for believing a single word of the bible. You are a vile human being, worse than anyone else could ever be.
adrenacrumb 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 Are his standards higher? If you believe God is good in nature and can do no act that would be considered evil and that is our standard as well as God, then how can he do things we find utterly repulsive? Does he really just have a free card to do whatever he feels like and that he is able to do things which he has himself told people are evil? God's double standard is incredible isn't it?
adrenacrumb 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 Does it say in the bible that God told people that they should not act like him because he does what he wants and it's all good, but for them it is evil as hell?
adrenacrumb 9 months ago
@adrenacrumb
I don't see any contradiction there. In the Bible God commands us to act justly. God is perfectly just in punishing people who break His law. If a judge sends a criminal to prison does the the criminal have any cause for complaint on the grounds that the judge wouldn't like someone sending him to prison?
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28 How about that god isn't doing anything? They are just stories and there is no real evidence of ANY divinity. If we are rebellious people and there is a god, it's all gods fault in the first place for making us this way and he would have. Oh yeah, god gave us free will because he wanted us to get ourselves consigned to eternal torture, he must have, he totally saw it coming. This isn't ridiculous? What does it take to cross the line and become ridiculous?
AliburX 9 months ago
@adrenacrumb: you might consider withdrawal. There are people who make a great argument against Christianity. You aren't one of them. Just like Christians cringe when a Harold Camping runs his mouth; humanists the world over are wishing you would quit trying to defend them. Unfortunately, we are judged by the most vocal members of our movements, no matter how poor a spokesperson that may be.
IMTWalrus01 9 months ago
@IMTWalrus01 So what you are actually trying to argue is that there are atheists who think a Jewish guy coming back and slaughtering everyone on Earth until they choke on their own blood is a perfectly rational and warranted belief?
adrenacrumb 9 months ago
@IMTWalrus01 Please name some atheists for me that think that is kosher under any circumstance.
adrenacrumb 9 months ago
@IMTWalrus01 Really don't think I'm too far out of line in saying no athiest in the world would believe that is even close to being a rationally justified ideology to hold to.
adrenacrumb 9 months ago
Which part of the many verses where Jesus did predict the end of the world within the lifetimes of some of his followers did YOU not understand?
For non-believers like me it is almost equally ridiculous to believe a rapture will happen at all than to set a certain date to it.
MARI0LAND 9 months ago
@MARI0LAND
Like what?
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28
I didn't really understand your question. Do you mean which verses?
"28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”"
Matthew 16
See also
Matthew 24:34-35,Mark 13:30-31, Matthew 10:22-23, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27, John 21:22
MARI0LAND 9 months ago
@MARI0LAND
Matthew 16:28 is a reference to the Transfiguration in the next chapter. That's the way Peter viewed it:
"For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased" (1 Peter 1:16-17).
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28
LOL, you REALLY don't see the irony here?
So "Peter" or actually the guy who wrote this letter saw that the world didn't end like Jesus predicted and stated that those words clearly don't mean what they say. How is that ANY different than what Camping did?
BTW this passage was interpreted differently by some Christians: Some thought some of the people that Jesus was talking to must still be alive (look up "wandering jew" on wikipedia).
MARI0LAND 9 months ago
@MARI0LAND
Peter along with James and John had a vision of Christ in glory. That fits perfectly well with what Jesus said in Matt 16:28 and it doesn't require any after the fact parsing of the sort Camping engaged in. In the vision they saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. Only those desperate to find problems would take issue with that.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@MARI0LAND
I am currently rethinking my eschatology but at the moment I would suggest that "this generation" refers to the the generation that would witnessed the events Jesus fortold. It would hardly make sense for Jesus to say that He would return the life time of the disciples and then go onto say that no even He knew the day or the hour of His return (verse 36), unless you are going to be unreasonable enough to suggest that Jesus forgot what he said seconds before.
ukchristian28 9 months ago
@ukchristian28
Redefining the word "generation" doesn't help with the quoted passage, because he didn't use the word here. He says "some of you" not "this generation shall not pass away" like in other passages.
MARI0LAND 9 months ago
@MARI0LAND
Jesus also says he does not know the day and the hour. How does this in any way contradict the notion that he will come back in the lifetime of his followers? I know I will die during this century, but I don't know the date.
Unreasonable? Of course, but isn't this what you Christians believe? That Jesus will come back during your lifetime, but you don't know exactly when?
MARI0LAND 9 months ago