In all honesty, and i'm probably going to be flamed for this, but Fascism isn't right or left, though I believe it's more right than left. It just uses every possible political ideology it can to serve a small group's goals, be it nationalization or privatization, helping the proletariat to founding new bourgeois. It's just whatever serves the interest of oppression at any given moment; it shows no respect to any ideology, which is almost as sickening as it in practice.
As far as I'm concerned, the left vs. right debate is irrelevant. Both sides are full of liars and panderer s, and they're both statists whether they realize it or not. It's high time that people debate real political principles, and not those tired, disingenuous dogmas. The left-right paradigm only serves to bind us to the status quo, ie, statism.
Well... In Nazi Germany, they "broke unions, lowered wages, abolished overtime pay, decreased business taxes and increase business subsidies." While, of course, it wasn't a free market in the purest sense, it was by no means socialist. It was heavily regulated, but it remained capitalistic none-the-less. Don't mind me, though, just commenting on this debate here and there.
We should all be fighting for democracy like these people in the streets! Fighting against illegitimate authority rooted in domination and greed. Abolish pyramids, the ruling class, the system of top down control which restricts opportunities to fully develop as human beings. Our present system denies self-determination, it imposes false choices, mandates conformity, muzzles dissent, creates false enemies, rewards destruction, propagates ignorance and shackles truth. Power to the People!
If they can keep you in the dark about Dr. Burzinski's Cure For Cancer since 1977, imagine what else they kept from you. Watch Burzinski on Netflix! This doctor has received 5 acquittals and the Texan Medical Board is still trying to take this man's license away from him. For what? Coming out with a Cure For Cancer? This is more worse than our government hiding "The International Hearings on 9/11!" which recently took place in Toronto, Ontario.
@LucisFerre1 Anytime you have a central banking system where you have inflation followed by deflation, you will eventually have hyperinflation - taught through Economics in college. When you see extreme deflation in our dollar by the National Debt spiraling out of control due to our government's inability to pay down "The National Debt's Interest" enough to pay down the "principle" a.k.a. National Debt, you will get Hyperinflation. Imagine our GOV keeping you in the dark! v=BIVVL43qPXY
America has a perverse culture. Here the term "Libertarian" means the exact opposite of what it meant to everyone else throughout history. So here in America, "Libertarian" means extreme advocate of total tyranny. Here "Libertarian" means that power ought to be given into the hands of private unaccountable tyrannies, which is what corporations are. They are even worse than State Tyrannies because there (in the state) the public has at least some role (however small) in a corporation it has none!
The Corporate System as it's evolved in the 20th Century is a pure tyranny, because it's completely unaccountable. If you're inside one of these institutions you take absolute orders from above, and you hand absolute orders down to the ones below. These tyrannies do what they feel like, many are Global in scale, and they walk over national boundary lines like they're not even there! And idiot "Libertarians" support them, to do as they please!
That Professor is an idiot. His political bias corrupts his definition of capitalism and only further aids the support of the 1% by turning people against the best defender they could have.
michalchik is right. I've NEVER seen Libertarians go after corporate welfare or government support of corporate power. I've NEVER seen them actually fight for the rights of common working poor people. I've NEVER seen them push for the removal of the Legal Personhood Status of Corporations... Libertarians are gullible pawns for the plutocrats, who believe that their property rights trump every other right on the planet... including Human Rights!!!
@CosmicFork The way you go after "corporate welfare" is by eliminating the state's ability to intervene in economic matters unrelated to property rights and our currency. The mere existence of the states power to do so invites and pratically assures corruption and special interest politics. It's quite simple; the more power the government has, the more beneficial it is to corrupt it and take it over. That's why government's powers must be strictly limited.
Banking Deregulation was a Huge Factor in the Financial Meltdown of 2008. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 dropped the barriers that barred Commercial Banks from taking on the risks of Investment Banks. The Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 allowed for the proliferation of derivatives markets. Derivatives formed an "avatar economy" (a system of illusory value built atop the real economy). When Debentures based on real estate turned out to be DogShit that caused a major Credit Crisis!
@michalchik I have a hard time beliveing you've ever communicated with a libertarian on the issues. What you're calling 'libertarian' is the economic policy of necons. Most libertarians I know (and being one, I actully know others) do not believe limited liability organizations (such as corporations) should even exist. They are artificial constructs of the state. Libertarians do not believe an income tax should exist at all. Anyone arguing for lower corporate income taxes isn't a libertarian
We have a large group of criminals in this country who are sucking the 99% dry, and it's called the financial sector. They use their wealth to buy influence and thus power, whether it be through corrupting politicians, advertising campaigns, etc. These parasites are ruining our democracy by purchasing our elected politicians, controlling our news channels, etc. And now they want your internet!. If enough people supported the message of OWS, politicians would be forced to pay attention and act.
It's not so simple. Too much government gave the big bailouts to the crooked banks, but not enough government was to blame for the lack of regulation which led to the 2008 crash. Government can and should work for the people, by the people. That's why we need the government to tax the banks, the wall street transactions, the rich, because the balance of wealth is WAY out of wack in this country. We extend bush tax cuts but increase taxes on the middle class. It's madness.
Banking Deregulation was a Huge Factor in the Financial Meltdown of 2008. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 dropped the barriers that barred Commercial Banks from taking on the risks of Investment Banks. The Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 allowed for the proliferation of derivatives markets. Derivatives formed an "avatar economy" (a system of illusory value built atop the real economy). When Debentures based on real estate turned out to be DogShit that caused a major Credit Crisis!
Coyne stated that "government is the problem." Correct. But government action is steered by those in the so-called 1%. We get bad government policies because they were lobbyed for at the behest of a wealthy, well-connected corporate sponsor. I believe that government has a role to play but should not be in bed with business. THIS is what has to change. This is why the 99% are trying to bring reform- to break this dangerous collusion. Government nor business can fix it. WE have to demand change!
@michalchik There are very few libertarian billionaires. As a group, they do not seem to share your opinion that they would be the beneficiaries of libertarian policies. It's silly then to claim that libertarianism is apologetics for billionaires. Sure, billionaires would benefit from lower taxes as would all taxpayers, but in general, regulation actually benefits the very wealthy by erecting market entry barriers. Those pushing for regulation are almost always the entrenched players.
couples work 2-3 part time jobs with no benefits.god forbid but if they or their children get sick welfare has to pay.a lot of these people r the proud working poor.go blame their employers 4 increased welfare costs.if u want to blame stupid go blame the education system who doesnt teach the kids how to balance a checkbook in hs.not to mention how universities offer less than worthless courses like party planner.they assure these kids they will be employable.1%likes to keep us stupid.
The occupiers are nothing more than elite white racist imperialist thieves.
They moved en masse to occupy and control areas (public squares, parks, etc) already occupied by indigenous people groups (i.e., bums, usually black). They TOOK that land from the poor!
They often used superior numbers or THE PO-LICE to enforce their illegal occupation whenever the blacks tried to retake turf! South Africa, anyone?
The occupiers ARE the very thing they've been taught to hate.
The occupiers are nothing more than elite white racist imperialist thieves.
They moved en masse to occupy and control areas (public squares, parks, etc) already occupied by indigenous people groups (i.e., bums, usually black). They TOOK that land from the poor!
They often used superior numbers or THE PO-LICE to enforce their illegal occupation whenever the blacks tried to retake turf! South Africa, anyone?
The occupiers ARE the very thing they've been taught to hate.
Anyone, who's interested about the truth about the birth of OWS and the power structure behind the US uprising should listen to, "Truth of the plan for the New World order, recording made 1967 Myron c Fagan". After careful consideration and weeks of research revolving around the "Occupation", I've come to understand its fake. It is not a so called, "a grassroots" birther but is indeed an orchestrated "astroturf " movement. I challenge, all to type in the Myron C Fagon terms above & listen.
Nahhh, these corporations need our attention too. We need targeted and organized boycotts to get the attention of these corporations who have shipped our jobs overseas and avoid taxes, while we the middle class deal with stagnant wages, job loss, and continue to pay our fair share of taxes.
Ya it's kind of like religions in a way, there are Radicals and Secular. Or Politics, Conservatives and Liberals. Crony Capitalism and Public-Interest Capitalism.
Banking Deregulation was a Huge Factor in the Financial Meltdown of 2008. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 dropped the barriers that barred Commercial Banks from taking on the risks of Investment Banks. The Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 allowed for the proliferation of derivatives markets. Derivatives formed an "avatar economy" (a system of illusory value built atop the real economy). When debentures based on real estate turned out to be DogShit that caused a major Credit Crisis!
Ever since the Occupy folks turned on their Furor, they have been hardly been in the media spotlight. Better get back to kissing his feet if you want Socialism/Commie/nazism
He's correct. I've been telling people that at the core, the tea party and occupy have the same motivation. The BailOuts are stuck in people's throat. The Government changed the rules for the elite. All the rest of us go broke in business, and it's time lower our class and standard of living, with shame in tow. When those elite bastards stood before congress, and recieved fixed, low interest rate loans; they should have been treated like any of us, who goes bankrupt. IT WAS/IS WRONG!!
Outsourcing the means of production of an entire country is capitalists practicing capitalism.. the losers are the people of said country who must wrestle for the lessening ever lower paying jobs / means of earning.
Capitalism isnt bad, but it cannot be unregulated, And nowhere does he talk about the safety net. small c capitalism, small s socialist and small l libertarianism... all things in balance. too much socialism, not a good thing, too much capitalism, not a good thing. If you disagree, go back to reading Atlas Shrugged.
@skepticalsinner Can you be a lot free, and a little socialist? Can the government only have the power to take some of your paycheck and give it to others? Is there a way to stop the government from expanding that power once we grant it to them? Be careful about thinking that we can get away with some socialism. We can't.
It may be necessary to become violent, but 1st we should follow the example of our nation's founders & peacefully protest at least until summertime
By then we should know if the Dem & GOP Parties are going to seriously adjust the tax code which has resulted in the top 10% having 90% of the FINANCIAL WEALTH of the nation
If they havent done so & still plan to suspend the US Const around their convention sites so no free speech will be allowed, you'll have waited long enough & be justified
@DillonDee1 So you're going to revolt against the government for not taking the top 10%'s money and giving it to you? The founding fathers would not support your claim on other people paychecks. Your ideas are the opposite of what Thomas Jefferson had in mind when writing the Constitution and Dec. of Ind. This country was founded on the principles that all men are free, and all men are born with equal rights. Equal rights, not equals things. As my father taught me, fair is never equal.
You need to take a civics class instead of learning your history from the right wing talking heads.
The founding fathers did not embrace that kind of senseless cutthroat ideology. The system they established supported the lower classes, it didn't exploit them.
@apnwahoowa Any 1.3 billion Chinese skilled worker will take any 315 million american's job and get paid annually what the american makes weekly.. Globalization nor the exploitation of it was considered with your claims. Yes the top 10% will pay or there will be war.. That is a fact.
Why isn't "crony capitalism" simply the systemic, logical, and inevitable result of capitalism. Maybe there is only crony capitalism and this is all there ever was. What he's suggesting is that there was ever any other kind of capitalism. You can't show this historically, so really capitalism is just a ideal, a perfect abstraction which exists only on paper. If efficient markets are the product of capitalism, why isn't crony capitalism also a product of those very same markets?
@abcdefg3332 Because goverment shouldent be forcing banks to give out home loans to bad risks. Just as well as college tuition to every Jerk that doesnt wana grow up immediatly after highschool. The idea is that forcing Keynsian economic principles down our necks through an inflationary loan hub called the Federal Reserve.. isnt free markets at work. Thats Cronies divvying up special loans for there buddys with no goverment oversight. Both sides have valid points on this argument.
Banking Deregulation was a Huge Factor in the Financial Meltdown of 2008. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 dropped the barriers that barred Commercial Banks from taking on the risks of Investment Banks. The Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 allowed for the proliferation of derivatives markets. Derivatives formed an "avatar economy" (a system of illusory value buily atop the real economy). When debentures based on real estate turned out to be DogShit that caused a major Credit Crisis!
People don't get it as you can see by the top 2 comments. They don't understand that Gov. tells them what they want to hear, then passes the buck to a few choice corporate 'interest groups' they write the regulation, pass it back to inept politicians. They tack on a catchy title and pass it off as 'consumer protection'. It's a joke. But most people don't get that. Just like the difference between political parties is superficial, so is the separation of Government and Large Corporations.
This is what happens when you try to stuff 10lbs of shit in a 5lb bag. These losers will never create any wealth for themselves or our country. So why not take it from others. What a bunch of losers.
The top 10% now has 90% of the FINANCIAL WEALTH of the nation & it's getting worse!
Obviously the 1st thing to do is put the income tax rates on the top 10% back about where they were under Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Bush1, or Clinton -- TAKE YOUR PICK!
@akgregor Exactly. I respect many professors in academia. I am a university graduate. But I have found that some people in academia are apologists of the system. Corporations always try to eliminate competition. The US Steel industry and Standard Oil are two examples. The problem is not the lack of constraints on government, but on corporations. There's an economic term called externality. That's when a corporation let's an uninvolved third party pay their cost.
Gee a video sponsored by super rich people, promoted on youtube by rich people, featuring people paid by the rich claiming that rich are not to blame. How on earth could this come to be? Libertarianism is just the apologetics of greed. It is the most heavily subsized idea and could never stand on its own in the free market of ideas.
@Illyrien Nonsense, if they were willing to face the free market of ideas they wouldn't need to buy space on youtube like Mormons and Scientology do. They wouldn't spend multimillions on money losing propaganda organizations like Heritage, AFP,, AEI, Hoover, and ARI nor have to buy faculty positions at Universities with endowments. Milton freedman would need Patrons like the Koch Brothers to pay their way. Libertarianism has simply become apologetics for the crimes of billionaires.
@HoldingOnToLiberty Most are criminals. I took a course on criminology where we did one chapter on white collar crime and no one in the class could name one billionaire the the professor could pin felonies too. Kennedy's bootlegging and bribery, Rockafellers and Vanderbuilts extrortion sabotage market rigging, Edison extortion sabotage market rigging theft, Gates market rigging theft. Pick your billionaire and do some digging.
@michalchik If they are criminals and you have evidence of their crimes then get a lawyer and pursue legal action. Of course Joe Kennedy, John Rockefeller and Thomas Edison are dead so good luck with that.
No doubt there are good and bad people everywhere and that applies to billionaires. I believe the worst billionaire that I have ever heard of is George Soros.
@HoldingOnToLiberty First I have no standing. Second, the person with the biggest legal staff and control of the media almost always wins in this society. Third our government is too weak to take on the most powerful people in America. They own too many politicians and judges and the white collar crime division of our government are tiny and crippled.
@michalchik You have no standing? Are you not a citizen of the U.S.?
I don't buy into the idea that ALL billionaires are corrupt. Just because you have picked out a few that are does not mean it is all or even the majority.
A Marxist mindset has permeated our culture. I don't know if you are a Marxist or not but regardless I think you are wrong to lump all rich people into the same category. If a crime has been committed then prosecute otherwise stop trying to "eat the rich".
@HoldingOnToLiberty Standing for civil suits requires the ability to demonstrate probable cause of personal harm, standing for criminal cases requires personal harm and the support of a prosecutor. If you don't have those things the judge will throw the case out. If you don't think billionaire are corrupt pick one and we will look at it, There might be a few but I can't find any. In addition to Marxist ideology, fascist and royalist ideology has permeated this society. I am none of the above
@michalchik Well then by that same logic we should be examining the lives of the poor and the middle class as well. We need to go on a massive witch hunt to root out corruption.
Fascism is a variation of Marxism. I stand for individual liberty, the constitution and the country the founding fathers gave us. Our founders hated the class structure of England never wanted that here but the Marxists have reintroduced it. They wanted prosperity for everyone.
@HoldingOnToLiberty "Fascism is a variation of Marxism." "the Marxists have reintroduced it (class system)" Both these statements are just utter clueless bullshit. You can not have freedom so long as the economy is control by other people whether they be in the the government or so called private sector. Read some Mussolini, read Sinclair, Read Marx, Read Adam Smith, read the federalist papers, Jefferson, Franklin and Madison and get a clue. You are sucking up propaganda.
@michalchik I do read. I also understand. I know what collectivism is and Marx and Mussolini both were collectivists, as were Stalin, Mao and Hitler. As is Chavez and Castro.
You are right, we cannot have freedom is the economy is controlled by others. But who controls the economy, billionaires or the government?
One could argue that billionaire buy govt influence but that is only if the govt is corrupt otherwise they would have no control over anything.
@michalchik Your blanket assertion that the only way one can be billionaire is by breaking the law is childish. I don't know any billionaires but in this country one is innocent until proven guilty. I am not in a crusade against any group in this country especially those who have a few dollars more than me.
That is not propaganda, that is just common sense. Use your brain. If you know of a billionaire who has broken the law, file charges. It's just that simple.
@HoldingOnToLiberty First of all I said almost not every. Second you still haven't named one to investigate. Your gut feelings doesn't trump the work of a professor of criminology that when put on the spot could back up his blanket assert. Fourth, innocent until proven guilty is a legal expedient designed to hold off abuse of the court not to give people realistic view of reality. No, they don't have a few more dollars that you, they have enough money to make you a slave.
@michalchik I told you I don't know any billionaires and for that matter I probably don't know any millionaires either. I'm not talking about a gut feeling, I'm talking about people. If you take a cross section of any segment of society you are going to find good and bad and everything in between. That is true despite what your, most likely, Marxist professor told you in college.
For me to make a fair assessment of any billionaire I would need to know them first.
@HoldingOnToLiberty What on earth makes u think billionaires are normal people? The process of becoming a billionaire selects for the most reckless, uncompromising, greedy, ambitious and materialistic people. Being a billionaire distorts your perception of money (its utility drops to near zero and it becomes purely a prestige item), you become a target of kidnapping and have to separate yourself and you can solve almost any problem by throwing money at. Power corrupts.
@michalchik So you have done an in depth study and have met and talked with every billionaire alive. Is this true of Oprah Winfrey?
Where I live there is a billionaire who built and donates heavily to a children's cancer center. One year when his business didn't do so well he did not earn enough money to make his usual contribution (in the millions) so he took out a loan to give to the hospital.
@michalchik Lord Action's actual quote is, "Power TENDS to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Acton was referring to political power exercised by Kings and Popes. Billionaires only have power over the people they employ unless they collude with an already corrupt govt. Cut the govt out and their power goes back to influence over people they pay to work for them.
My focus is on the govt and not the billionaire because the govt affects my life, not the billionaire.
@michalchik I think it is misguided to focus on the billionaires. And like I said unless you can prove a crime, you have no qualms with them, I don't care how greedy you think they are.
Greed is an evil but so is envy and theft. Wealth redistribution is theft.
"Whoever claims the right to redistribute the wealth produced by others is claiming the right to treat human beings as chattel." - Ayn Rand
@HoldingOnToLiberty Theft is what our society defines it to be. There are no such things as property rights until we agree on them. This is what I mean by libertarians being apologists for the rich nothing more. Somehow usury, insider trading, and contract trickery is not theft while taxation is. For some reason libertarians seem to think that property rights exceed all other rights, life, equity, dignity. They also think you can own things you never made?
@michalchik You don't understand natural law or natural rights. Property is a fundamental right in a free society. Property, in this country, has always been defined as anything that is produced as a result of your labor. That includes money and anything you purchase with money.
The people who try to obfuscate the definition of property are those who want to take that right and other natural rights away from the individual.
@HoldingOnToLiberty I understand natural rights perfectly. It is an archaic notion left over from when people thought that God was up in heaven writing gravity and moral laws into physical reality. It is basically a way to say shut up I am right and I don't have a reason. There is nothing natural about property rights. Your right to a piece of property is established by agreement in the society and end there. Murder and theft would be impossible if it violated a natural law.
@michalchik Wow what a totalitarian you are. Even if you don't believe in God the concept of natural rights not being something that man can take away from you is vastly important. It had nothing to do with a religious argument of who is right or wrong.
It appears that you would prefer to relegate the ownership of your right to the government. Good luck with that. Historically it never has turned out very good for the individual.
@michalchik "This is what I mean by libertarians being apologists for the rich nothing more". That implies that there is something inherently bad about being rich. Who made you judge and jury? I'm not a libertarian but I have strong libertarian leanings and if anything libertarians are apologists for freedom and nothing more.
So I would reply to that absurd comment by saying that Socialists are apologists for tyranny.
@HoldingOnToLiberty "Socialists are apologists for tyranny." I agree, they often are. The USSR was full of socialist apologists for their tyranny and I would oppose them too. The USSR was dominated by that kind of insanity. Now the libertarians are the ones supported by the powerful as apologists for plutocratic tyranny. I don't subscribe to an ideology I treasure individual rights as a social construct useful as a means to the end of general welfare.
@michalchik If what you say about Libertarians is true then why haven't we ever had a Libertarian president? Why haven't we had more Libertarian congressmen?
What you don't get is that a free market is NOT what many powerful corporations want. They like not needing consumers to keep the business afloat, it take the pressure off. They would much rather take gov't money, it much easier to get. I don't know any Libertarians who support corporatism.
@michalchik "I don't subscribe to an ideology" YES YOU DO! Even if you think you don't you are passively supporting collectivism. Your opposition to the free market tells me volumes that you do not understand freedom. You do not understand how so few people in the history of mankind have ever lived with any kind of freedom. How this nation was once the freest nation to have ever existed and you want to through it all away.
@HoldingOnToLiberty No! collectives are a tools, just like individual rights and markets are. Unlike idiot libertarians I don't think a single tool is a solution to every problem and an end unto itself. I can actually cope with more than one idea at a time. I use hammers, I like hammers, i don't eat dinner with hammers or worship hammers as natural law. There is room for the idea forks in my head too. That's a problem with ideologues, they have to assume every else is.
@michalchik Those "idiot" libertarians only want to maximize your freedom. If you think that playing around with other "tools" is going to make you free you are the "idiot". There is no "tool" that allows a person to live the best life possible and in doing so makes other lives better then freedom of the individual. You would rather flirt with tyranny because you think it has value. I suggest you move to another country rather than try to screw this one up more than it already is.
@HoldingOnToLiberty Those idiot libertarians want to trash the one protection you have, democracy, to keep warlords from stamping all over freedom. The person with the most money gets the most guns, the person with the most guns makes the rules, your precious natural rights don't stop bullets. Freedom doesn't protect you from from the freedom of other people to smash your head in. Kings are nothing but land lords with hired thugs forcing you to pay rent.
@michalchik - Democracy is tyranny of the majority. How can it not promote warlords?
Your statement about kings is largely correct but I think it applies to pretty much anyone who ends up in a position to initiate force against others without the affected population taking issue with it.
@HoldingOnToLiberty Anyway, who is your virtuous billionaire that you think has not committed felony crimes in the process of getting his billions. (if you pick inheritors we get to look at the source of the money). Pick a major corporation if you prefer.
@michalchik Why then are billionaires rarely libertarian? Sure there are a few, but no more so than the general public. Nor is it clear how billionaires would benefit from the type of severely restricted government libertarians espouse. This makes as much sense as claiming that liberalism is apologetics for billionaires. Billionaires benefit from the status quo.
@eventhisidistaken Billionaires benefit from lower marginal taxes, less regulation, liberalization of trade, removal of conflicts prohibition against collusion, sell off of public assets, removal of pollution laws, tort reform, removal of safety laws, removal of government monitoring of fraud and product dangers and government small enough to easily bribe. that status quo is good for them, Libertarian reforms is far better. Unleash the free market is code for the Rich Rule.
There are different types of billionaires. Those that make money in the market by satisfying consumer wants (market entrepeneurs) and those that make money through the state (political entrepeneurs). The first one is the ones libertarians like, the other is the one everyone else keeps creating.
@eventhisidistaken When I see a libertarian go after corporate welfare and government support of corporate power first instead of breaks for the rich and want to see the caps taken off torts, oppose judicial overrides of jury decisions, support unions, actually push the removal of the legal protections corporations have against damages and crimes, and actually fight for the common mans rights then I will believe you are something other than gullible pawns for the plutocrats.
Since both republicans and democrats actively use the state to help them pursue their statists interest with the stolen money of the tax payers, then how can you be angry at a few pro-freedom organizations receiving voluntary contributions?
Libertarians dont help billionaires at all, since most are crooks created by your state.
@Illyrien I don't support any propaganda from the crooks and thieves at the top whether it be democratic, republican or libertarian. Libertarianism is just their biggest scam yet to finish destroying democracy and the rule of law and complete the fascist plutocracy. It is an insane scheme that does not hold up to economics 101 unless your goal is to enrich a few at the cost of the wealth, health and freedom of the many. It is as stupidly utopian as communism and a scam just like it.
Libertarianism isnt utopian, it just provide a framework to limit people from aggression against others. As for economics, since libertarians is freedom, its economic system is capitalism, the only effective system discovered so far.
@Illyrien "it just provide a framework to limit people from aggression against others."
No it doesn't it is the pure utopian belief that if we make up this nonaggression principle and get rid of government people will start respecting everyones rights. Every system in the world works if people play by the rules. Money has the power to force other people to do things through violence, fraud, exploitation and coercion. Every tyranny in history is simply the power of wealth.
@Illyrien And I am not arguing against market economics. I think it is a valuable tool for allocation of resources. I am just not an idiotic ideological purest that loves oversimplifying things and pretending that one tool solves all our problems. Capitalism kills open markets because of the competitive displacement principle, it does nothing to optimize positive of negative externalities, it trashes commons, and creates no public goods. It also co-opts the government it needs to run.
@michalchik I love your comment: "Gee, a video sponsored by super rich people, (i.e. the Koch Bros), promoted on YouTube by rich people, featuring a professor bought off by the rich, claiming that the rich are not to blame. How could this be? Libertarianism is just the apologetics of greed." And you're right, it's one of the most heavily subsidized, and absolutely terrible ideas in the history of mankind. Just like the Fantasy Religions of Scientology & Mormonism, Oh Yeah, and Catholicism too!
Many occupiers just see what they want to see and they see big business as the problem. This mantra has been ingrained in there brain washed heads. I think many would like to get to Washington but logistically just couldn't get there and sum are scared to go to Washington because Washington has the guns and power so its easier to just lash out at wall street. I think those protesters need to spend there energy making sure they vote only honest and good people to represent them.
@MrSpan0701 You are assuming that the voting system still works in America. It has been compromised by the control of mass media. Voter disenfranchisement. Gaming the nomination process. Hackable voting machines. Paid for turn key smear campaigns.
@michalchik I totally agree with you and that has to be addressed fervently by the masses of people too. I think if people wake up, get interested in politics, not just every 4 years but constantly as a civic duty, we can eventually vote out the scum that rig the system when the american people aren't looking or to lazy/distracted to look.
gov should cancel debt? im not even going to respond to a statement that's that stupid. No institution would lend if it didnt have to be paid back. and lending is necessary for the economy. With regard to the Fed, these people are not educated in economics. the Fed has done EVERYTHING correctly with regards to monetary policy. If you disagree, get educated in economics. Ben Bernanke knows what he is doing. If you watched his press conferences instead of advocating socialism, you'd know that.
How can people start producing human value needs when major corporations over-run the American Government. I mean seriously, you want a hamburger your more likely are going to go to a McDonald's, Burger King, Five Guys, etc. It gets harder and harder for the little man to grow, and these major corporations not only take away job opportunities but they suck up the tax payers money. The fat cats are only getting fatter. Its time to boycott more corporations especially Walmart which is the worst
He doesn't offer any real solutions. What he's actually saying is that government is the problem. Therefore, we need more deregulation. Well this is exactly how this country got into this mess. Government will always give handouts as long as the corrosive role that money and lobbyists play in the electoral process continues unabated. See, I can write like a professor too. What bullshit. The courts make things worse. The Supreme Court's decision in Citizens United is one example.
@USASecretHistory You said it yourself. "Government will always give handouts as long as the corrosive role that money and lobbyists play in the electoral process continues unabated."
That's what this guy is suggesting. Not allowing this to happen any more. It's not rocket surgery. It's just been going of for so long that the average American just assumes it's normal and next to impossible to fix. In reality it's pretty simple.
socialism: an economic theory in which the means of production and distribution are vested and owned in the community as a whole; not to be confused with communism
Profit-motive and endless consumption is a cancer. Capitalism is not sustainable- socially, economically, ecologically, spiritually, etc. Capitalism fosters wealth stratification and thus power stratification, it encourages hierarchies, it encourages exploitation of resources/populations/other species/workers/consumers/etc., it also encourages various forms of wage-slavery which, in the real world, leads to a deficit of autonomy/fulfillment/freedom/humanity for most within an economic system.
@IngeniousEpithet The only alternative to Capitalism is some form of government control and redistribution. Do you want to live in a country where the fruits of your labor are not your's to keep? Where people who don't work or are capable of taking care of themselves have a legal claim to the money you worked hard for? All economic systems besides Capitalism are anti-freedom. One can't be free and have a overreaching government that takes 40% 50%, 60% of their money and gives it to others.
"Do you want to live in a country where the fruits of your labor are not your's to keep?"
Perhaps you aren't familiar with the plight of the working class in capitalism? Most workers don't get to keep what they make - The results of their labor are taken by others higher in the hierarchy, sold for profit, and the workers themselves are given a fraction of it.
Even better, when losses are suffered, it is taken out of the worker's wages.
"The only alternative to Capitalism is some form of government control/redistribution."
-You completely fail to realize that Capitalism is BORN of state-society and ownership (which can ONLY be defended by a state apparatus).
MYTH #2:
"Living in a country where you keep all your income"
-So long as you live under a nation-state, you will be taxed, there is no way around it. If you're advocating a stateless society, then you cannot have Capitalism, it's simple really.
"People who don't work are all thieves/mooches off of welfare/taxes"
-Wrong. Most people on welfare LEGITIMATELY NEED assistance and are not some kind of evil insidious leech. It's funny how people like yourself have allowed yourself to be duped into hating the poor and defending the rich. The game is rigged and the rich run it, yet you still play useful idiot for them. You also maintain an oblivious assumption that the ECONOMIC system is perfectly okay, when it's not.
"All economic systems besides Capitalism are anti-freedom"
-That's one of the dumbest things I've heard. You've obviously not researched any alternatives, how can you pretend the things you say are true?? Do you EVER make an honest effort to study other economic systems or alternatives?? Or do you just read what Mises and right-wingers slander about "eeevilll socialism!!"?? You fail to realize that Capitalism fosters THEFT by a moneyed class over workers/consumers/etc.
@vtgamehendge Some solutions: -embrace increased Social Democracy -Participatory economics -Resource-based economies -Self-sufficient/sustainable/off-the-grid/localized living and permaculture -Rewilding -Cooperatives -Tribal/gift economies -Intentional communities People are thinking about radical/intelligent/workable solutions. Just gotta dig if you're truly interested. Capitalism is a failure on many levels, no reason to cling to it.
@HoldingOnToLiberty You can refer to my response above^^... but here's a copy: @vtgamehendge Some solutions: -embrace increased Social Democracy -Participatory economics -Resource-based economies -Self-sufficient/sustainable/off-the-grid/localized living and permaculture -Rewilding -Cooperatives -Tribal/gift economies -Intentional communities Etc. etc.
@IngeniousEpithet "Social Democracy"? Isn't that a code word for Socialism? "Participatory Economics"? That sounds like Free Market economics but I have a feeling that your definition includes heavy controls on private business. There is nothing free about that. Free the market and free the people.
I don't know where you are pulling these code words from but how about small limited govt, like our founders gave us and after that leave us the hell alone.
@IngeniousEpithet I know exactly what I am advocating. I am advocating that the government leave the individual alone unless that individual is causing harm to another. Get off the backs of private business and let people prosper.
IN A FREE MARKET, THERE IS NOTHING PREVENTING PRIVATE/SPECIAL INTERESTS FROM TAKING CONTROL OF OUR PUBLIC GOVERNMENT. WHICHEVER WAY YOU CUT IT, WE NEED BETTER REGULATION/TAXATION, AND THE MOST INTELLIGENT FORM OF THIS WILL PROBABLY RESULT IN INCREASES. VOODOO ECONOMICS WILL NOT SAVE US... THE MARKET IS NOT INFALLIBLE, ESPECIALLY WHEN UNREGULATED.
@IngeniousEpithet WITH SMALL LIMITED GOVT, LIKE WHAT OUR FOUNDERS GAVE US, PRIVATE BUSINESS CANNOT AFFECT GOVT. JUST LIKE HOW IT USED TO BE UNTIL THE PROGRESSIVE ERA. THERE WERE MANY BUSINESSES THAT TRIED PRIOR TO THE PROGRESSIVE ERA BUT THEY FAILED TO DO ANYTHING TO AFFECT POLICY. THE PROGRESSIVES (IE LIBERALS/SOCIALISTS) GAVE US CORPORATISM AND LIKE YOU'VE ALWAYS DONE, YOU BLAME CORPORATISM ON THE FREE MARKET. THE FREE MARKET IS THE ANTITHESIS OF CORPORATISM.
So humor me... what property (no pun intended) of free markets MAGICALLY prevents businesses from affecting government WITHOUT placing regulations in place that PREVENT business from hijacking government?? Oh and corporatism is a RIGHT-WING PHENOMENON, have you not studied anything of it? Mussolini, perhaps? Go ahead, ask an actual historian about Mussolini, he was RIGHT-WING.
@IngeniousEpithet The limits should be imposed on the government not business. If government stops getting in bed with business then that is the magic you are speaking of.
There are and have been several Progressives in the Republican party over the last century. Up until about 20 years ago there were still a handful of Democrats who believed in the Free Market but they have all been rooted out.
Both parties have engaged heavily in corporatism.
@IngeniousEpithet You are so off-base about Fascism it isn't even funny. Fascism is a variation of Socialism. You need to read about Mussolini. Mussolini was considered one of the intellectual giants by the Socialists. He was an avid Socialist. When he became a dictator he modified Socialism just a little and called it Fascism.
The are both based on collectivism where the individual's rights are subservient to the collective. It's all slavery.
@HoldingOnToLiberty No, you are totally off-base about Fascism. Here is a direct quote from Mussolini: "Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail." Does that sound like someone who supports Socialism? The labor leader Bellanca said: Mussolini: "Destroyed many of the Labor Unions and reorganized them into Fascisti Unions on a program totally opposed to strikes, and forcing "cooperation" between Capital and labor." Does that sound like a "Socialist"?? ... I think not!
@CosmicFork Maybe instead of finding random quotes you should read about him. He parted with the socialists before he took control of Italy. But that did not mean he went went toward individual liberty. He was a dictator, a central planner.
He was a Progressive and was revered by the early 20th century American Progressives, as was Stalin and Hitler. He claimed that Fascism was similar to Corporatism because it is a merger of the state and corporate power.
HITLER AND MUSSOLINI USED AND PERVERTED SOCIALIST RHETORIC IN ORDER TO APPEAL TO THE MASSES AND GAIN POWER!!! Duh!! After they gained sufficient power, they HUNTED DOWN actual Socialists, Communists, Liberals, minorities, unions, etc. etc. Saying that Hitler was a Socialist is like saying that North Korea really is a "democratic peoples' republic"... it's DOUBLESPEAK. Read a book yourself it's called 1984.
@IngeniousEpithet And what is that Socialist rhetoric? Is it not still used by the current socialists? Essentially it all boils down to vote for me and I will give you free stuff. And just in case the people ask where that free stuff is coming from, then the socialists will say we'll "eat the rich".
THERE ARE NO CURRENT SOCIALISTS!!! THEY'RE ALL CORPORATISTS!!! Jesus Christ... how the FUCK has Glenn Beck convinced so many idiots that this isn't a tyrannical Capitalist (NOT Socialist) society...
@IngeniousEpithet If there are no current socialists the what are you? Who are the Socialist Party USA? What is Europe?
Glenn Beck didn't have to tell me anything to realize that there is no such thing as a tyrannical capitalist. That just defies logic. I can stand in front of a McDonalds all day long and no one will force me to buy a Big Mac. I can stand in front of ANY business and no one will force me to buy their product. THERE IS NO CAPITALIST TYRANNY. ITS A MYTH
I'm an ANARCHIST, have I not already stated this? I do have Socialist leanings, but they're Libertarian. As far as statism is concerned, I support Social Democracy (so long as we have centralized markets/governments) and THAT is what you see in EUROPE (esp. Germany, France, and Scandinavian countries). And those countries are actually doing a lot better than we are in just about every single way (including happiness/freedom/intelligence).
@IngeniousEpithet Careful now. You got some dancing to do when you mention European countries. You wouldn't want to mention some of the other "Social Democracies" that are falling apart faster than the speed of light. Or the almost eminent demise of the EU. Because there are quite a few European countries, Greece, Italy, Portugal, etc that will be collapsing any minute now under the heavy burden Socialism places on people.
No such thing as a tyrannical Capitalist???? Are you KIDDING??? I'm just gonna pretend you didn't say that. If you SERIOUSLY have such a childish lack of depth in your analysis of Capitalism that you think McDonalds (and other similar entities) are non-coercive simply because they don't force you to buy their products... then I don't know what to say except you're seriously lacking in knowledge/imagination and heavy in denial. Theres more to McDonalds than their store-fronts
@IngeniousEpithet Okay so when you are done gasping at my allegedly ridiculous comment COULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW EXACTLY AM I BEING COERCED AGAINST MY WILL TO DO ANYTHING BY ANY BUSINESS???????????
So watching a TV commercial puts people under some hypnotic trance where they lose all self control and go buy the product? You must be one of the most weak minded persons I've ever heard of. Your home must be full to the rafters with stuff they've made you buy?
lol, cmon man... can you SERIOUSLY not think of ANY way in which markets/businesses/property/economics may force you (directly/indirectly, consciously/unconsciously) to live or behave a certain way? It's funny you bring up advertising, seems like you need to read the book "Propaganda" by Edward Bernays and especially its use by ADVERTISERS to manipulate the populace. Is it direct/physical coercion? No... but in a way, it's far more effective/insidious/deceitful.
@IngeniousEpithet No doubt. There is a whole science behind advertisement to do whatever it can to influence you to buy a product but they cannot take away your free will. But by the same token look at how movies, TV, music, friends etc all influence your life. Look at just how many people, upon meeting a person named Dave, will say "Dave's not here" and many have no clue that it came from a Cheech and Chong skit from almost 40 years ago.
When Capitalists OWN the land, OWN the resources, OWN our government, OWN the patents (or steal them), OWN lines of genetic code (which they shockingly do), OWN the means of production, OWN the banks, and RUN the market/economic system... do you SERIOUSLY THINK that you can just decide to opt-out by free will?? No, the majority of the planet is ENSLAVED by Capitalism and its benefactors. Ever heard that money is the root of all evil? Capitalism perpetuates greed.
@IngeniousEpithet But who are the Capitalists? They are us, the people. You are trying to make it sound like they are a different species altogether. We the people individually OWN the land, the resources, the government, the patents, the means of production, the banks and we the people should be allowed to run the market/economy without a meddling government distorting markets and stealing money.
If I am enslaved I am enslaved to myself because I am a Capitalist.
I'm not talking about the common man... a considerable portion of the population is INDEBTED to the real Capitalists, they don't OWN their cars/houses/land/etc. We are merely Capitalism's servants, its participants, its victims, its consumers, we were born into it, most of us know nothing else. The more you study the economic realities, the more you realize that THEY is a real thing, the ultra-rich barons, industrialists, and multinational corporations who are truly separate
@IngeniousEpithet There you go again. Capitalists are not a separate species. Capitalist are indebted to Capitalists. Yes I know that debt is slavery, I was in debt for several years. No one forced me to take a loan, it was all my doing. No one forced me to stay in debt either.
Life is not what is portrayed in movies. You have to make major changes to your lifestyle and give up stuff to get out of debt and realize no one owes you anything.
Also... there are no real alternatives to OPT-OUT towards... Capitalism has spread like a virus to all the corners of the world just like Christianity, civilization/nation-states, totalitarian agriculture, western lifestyles/values/habits/imagery, industrialization, etc. etc. Capitalism is a socio-economic virus that, despite any of its benefits, has produced harmful downfalls that outweigh them, at least in the long-term.
@IngeniousEpithet And whats your problem with Christianity? What is it to you what someone believes in or how they choose to live their life? Come on, you're the supposed anarchist! Why should you care? Who are you to tell another person what they can or cannot believe in?
Markets were BORN with governments, markets ARE a distortion of HUMANITY and the PLANET. Governments and markets distort EACH OTHER, but most of all they distort, exploit, enslave, domesticate, control, and victimize humanity and the other species that inhabit this planet. It's not a mystery, it's an extremely observable truth to those who don't fear the repercussions of opening their eyes and deeply questioning everything they've been raised to accept and embrace.
@IngeniousEpithet Go and get a bible and read that verse. Money is not the root of all evil. The LOVE of money is the root. Capitalism does NOT perpetuate greed any more than Socialism does. Greed is a human failing and no system of govt can promote or discourage it. Morality and religion are the only cure for human failings.
I also KNOW that I can opt out of whatever I want because I do it all the time. The only thing I KNOW that I cannot opt out of is a tyrannical govt
@IngeniousEpithet Oh and you want to talk about Orwell's 1984????? Do you know who he was writing that book about???? You really might rethink using that book against me while defending collectivism.
I gotta tell my friends about that comment. That's just too funny. A collectivist using 1984 to attack a libertarian leaning conservative. I think George Orwell, himself, is probably laughing in his grave. That was double plus funny.
Yes I want to talk about 1984 because many of the SAME CONCEPTS APPLY. Orwell was writing, largely, about tyrannical state-Communist societies. But it was NOT a bash against collectivism. In FACT, if you knew ANYTHING about George Orwell, you'd know that he wrote Homage to Catalonia SINGING PRAISES FOR REVOLUTIONARY ANARCHISTS/SOCIALISTS during the Spanish Revolution. They were ANTI-STATE, ANTI-CAPITALIST, ANTI-FASCIST and ANTI-STATE-COMMUNIST.
@HoldingOnToLiberty You people on "The Right" still can't seem to get it through your heads that Fascism is extremism of the political RIGHT, not the left! Historically Fascism is: 1. Glorification of the Nation State. 2. Glorification of Military Conquest. 3. Opposition to Trade Unions. 4. Opposition to Labor Parties. 5. Opposition to Communism, Anarchism, Socialism, and all Left Egalitarian Class Movements and Doctrines. & Glorification of a Leadership Cult. Fascism is extremism of THE RIGHT.
@CosmicFork You socialists have no clue what you are talking about. If Fascism is to the right of Socialism is only by a quarter of an inch or less. You have bought into the propaganda. Where on your scale does liberty fit if at either end is totalitarianism? Where do the anarchists fit in? Your scale makes no sense and yet is so often referred to by so many people it is just accepted as fact. Cont
You need to check out the Political Compass, it's a very simple/elegant and accurate portrayal of the various politico-economic via a more three-dimensional scale. Totalitarian versus Libertarian on one axis, and Left-wing versus Right-wing on the other. An Anarchist (as I am) is a left-wing Libertarian, or Libertarian Socialist (as Noam Chomsky defines himself). Here:
In all honesty, and i'm probably going to be flamed for this, but Fascism isn't right or left, though I believe it's more right than left. It just uses every possible political ideology it can to serve a small group's goals, be it nationalization or privatization, helping the proletariat to founding new bourgeois. It's just whatever serves the interest of oppression at any given moment; it shows no respect to any ideology, which is almost as sickening as it in practice.
forttrres 1 month ago
As far as I'm concerned, the left vs. right debate is irrelevant. Both sides are full of liars and panderer s, and they're both statists whether they realize it or not. It's high time that people debate real political principles, and not those tired, disingenuous dogmas. The left-right paradigm only serves to bind us to the status quo, ie, statism.
ScionAscendant 2 months ago
Well... In Nazi Germany, they "broke unions, lowered wages, abolished overtime pay, decreased business taxes and increase business subsidies." While, of course, it wasn't a free market in the purest sense, it was by no means socialist. It was heavily regulated, but it remained capitalistic none-the-less. Don't mind me, though, just commenting on this debate here and there.
forttrres 2 months ago
We should all be fighting for democracy like these people in the streets! Fighting against illegitimate authority rooted in domination and greed. Abolish pyramids, the ruling class, the system of top down control which restricts opportunities to fully develop as human beings. Our present system denies self-determination, it imposes false choices, mandates conformity, muzzles dissent, creates false enemies, rewards destruction, propagates ignorance and shackles truth. Power to the People!
CosmicFork 2 months ago 5
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IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
If they can keep you in the dark about Dr. Burzinski's Cure For Cancer since 1977, imagine what else they kept from you. Watch Burzinski on Netflix! This doctor has received 5 acquittals and the Texan Medical Board is still trying to take this man's license away from him. For what? Coming out with a Cure For Cancer? This is more worse than our government hiding "The International Hearings on 9/11!" which recently took place in Toronto, Ontario.
TheOccupywallstreet 2 months ago
@LucisFerre1 Anytime you have a central banking system where you have inflation followed by deflation, you will eventually have hyperinflation - taught through Economics in college. When you see extreme deflation in our dollar by the National Debt spiraling out of control due to our government's inability to pay down "The National Debt's Interest" enough to pay down the "principle" a.k.a. National Debt, you will get Hyperinflation. Imagine our GOV keeping you in the dark! v=BIVVL43qPXY
TheOccupywallstreet 2 months ago
America has a perverse culture. Here the term "Libertarian" means the exact opposite of what it meant to everyone else throughout history. So here in America, "Libertarian" means extreme advocate of total tyranny. Here "Libertarian" means that power ought to be given into the hands of private unaccountable tyrannies, which is what corporations are. They are even worse than State Tyrannies because there (in the state) the public has at least some role (however small) in a corporation it has none!
CosmicFork 2 months ago
The Corporate System as it's evolved in the 20th Century is a pure tyranny, because it's completely unaccountable. If you're inside one of these institutions you take absolute orders from above, and you hand absolute orders down to the ones below. These tyrannies do what they feel like, many are Global in scale, and they walk over national boundary lines like they're not even there! And idiot "Libertarians" support them, to do as they please!
CosmicFork 2 months ago
That Professor is an idiot. His political bias corrupts his definition of capitalism and only further aids the support of the 1% by turning people against the best defender they could have.
FreeThinkersFTW 2 months ago
@RodMunch247
Seriously, you're scum.
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
michalchik is right. I've NEVER seen Libertarians go after corporate welfare or government support of corporate power. I've NEVER seen them actually fight for the rights of common working poor people. I've NEVER seen them push for the removal of the Legal Personhood Status of Corporations... Libertarians are gullible pawns for the plutocrats, who believe that their property rights trump every other right on the planet... including Human Rights!!!
CosmicFork 2 months ago
@CosmicFork The way you go after "corporate welfare" is by eliminating the state's ability to intervene in economic matters unrelated to property rights and our currency. The mere existence of the states power to do so invites and pratically assures corruption and special interest politics. It's quite simple; the more power the government has, the more beneficial it is to corrupt it and take it over. That's why government's powers must be strictly limited.
ScionAscendant 2 months ago
Banking Deregulation was a Huge Factor in the Financial Meltdown of 2008. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 dropped the barriers that barred Commercial Banks from taking on the risks of Investment Banks. The Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 allowed for the proliferation of derivatives markets. Derivatives formed an "avatar economy" (a system of illusory value built atop the real economy). When Debentures based on real estate turned out to be DogShit that caused a major Credit Crisis!
CosmicFork 2 months ago 17
@michalchik I have a hard time beliveing you've ever communicated with a libertarian on the issues. What you're calling 'libertarian' is the economic policy of necons. Most libertarians I know (and being one, I actully know others) do not believe limited liability organizations (such as corporations) should even exist. They are artificial constructs of the state. Libertarians do not believe an income tax should exist at all. Anyone arguing for lower corporate income taxes isn't a libertarian
eventhisidistaken 2 months ago
We have a large group of criminals in this country who are sucking the 99% dry, and it's called the financial sector. They use their wealth to buy influence and thus power, whether it be through corrupting politicians, advertising campaigns, etc. These parasites are ruining our democracy by purchasing our elected politicians, controlling our news channels, etc. And now they want your internet!. If enough people supported the message of OWS, politicians would be forced to pay attention and act.
mographzach 2 months ago
It's not so simple. Too much government gave the big bailouts to the crooked banks, but not enough government was to blame for the lack of regulation which led to the 2008 crash. Government can and should work for the people, by the people. That's why we need the government to tax the banks, the wall street transactions, the rich, because the balance of wealth is WAY out of wack in this country. We extend bush tax cuts but increase taxes on the middle class. It's madness.
mographzach 2 months ago
Banking Deregulation was a Huge Factor in the Financial Meltdown of 2008. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 dropped the barriers that barred Commercial Banks from taking on the risks of Investment Banks. The Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 allowed for the proliferation of derivatives markets. Derivatives formed an "avatar economy" (a system of illusory value built atop the real economy). When Debentures based on real estate turned out to be DogShit that caused a major Credit Crisis!
CosmicFork 2 months ago
Coyne stated that "government is the problem." Correct. But government action is steered by those in the so-called 1%. We get bad government policies because they were lobbyed for at the behest of a wealthy, well-connected corporate sponsor. I believe that government has a role to play but should not be in bed with business. THIS is what has to change. This is why the 99% are trying to bring reform- to break this dangerous collusion. Government nor business can fix it. WE have to demand change!
dangerrussmetal 2 months ago
@dangerrussmetal
Milton Friedman warned about this.
When government gets to big industrialists tend to take it over.
Which is why we need a small constitutional government.
TimeWarp66 2 months ago
@TimeWarp66 Agreed.
dangerrussmetal 2 months ago
@michalchik There are very few libertarian billionaires. As a group, they do not seem to share your opinion that they would be the beneficiaries of libertarian policies. It's silly then to claim that libertarianism is apologetics for billionaires. Sure, billionaires would benefit from lower taxes as would all taxpayers, but in general, regulation actually benefits the very wealthy by erecting market entry barriers. Those pushing for regulation are almost always the entrenched players.
eventhisidistaken 2 months ago
Excellent plan
charlespontoon 2 months ago
couples work 2-3 part time jobs with no benefits.god forbid but if they or their children get sick welfare has to pay.a lot of these people r the proud working poor.go blame their employers 4 increased welfare costs.if u want to blame stupid go blame the education system who doesnt teach the kids how to balance a checkbook in hs.not to mention how universities offer less than worthless courses like party planner.they assure these kids they will be employable.1%likes to keep us stupid.
ez3usx2 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The occupiers are nothing more than elite white racist imperialist thieves.
They moved en masse to occupy and control areas (public squares, parks, etc) already occupied by indigenous people groups (i.e., bums, usually black). They TOOK that land from the poor!
They often used superior numbers or THE PO-LICE to enforce their illegal occupation whenever the blacks tried to retake turf! South Africa, anyone?
The occupiers ARE the very thing they've been taught to hate.
frankenstyrene 2 months ago
The occupiers are nothing more than elite white racist imperialist thieves.
They moved en masse to occupy and control areas (public squares, parks, etc) already occupied by indigenous people groups (i.e., bums, usually black). They TOOK that land from the poor!
They often used superior numbers or THE PO-LICE to enforce their illegal occupation whenever the blacks tried to retake turf! South Africa, anyone?
The occupiers ARE the very thing they've been taught to hate.
frankenstyrene 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Anyone, who's interested about the truth about the birth of OWS and the power structure behind the US uprising should listen to, "Truth of the plan for the New World order, recording made 1967 Myron c Fagan". After careful consideration and weeks of research revolving around the "Occupation", I've come to understand its fake. It is not a so called, "a grassroots" birther but is indeed an orchestrated "astroturf " movement. I challenge, all to type in the Myron C Fagon terms above & listen.
chippprrr 2 months ago
Nahhh, these corporations need our attention too. We need targeted and organized boycotts to get the attention of these corporations who have shipped our jobs overseas and avoid taxes, while we the middle class deal with stagnant wages, job loss, and continue to pay our fair share of taxes.
Vernonu9 2 months ago
Ya it's kind of like religions in a way, there are Radicals and Secular. Or Politics, Conservatives and Liberals. Crony Capitalism and Public-Interest Capitalism.
BeAsTm0aD 2 months ago in playlist Economics Playlist
Banking Deregulation was a Huge Factor in the Financial Meltdown of 2008. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 dropped the barriers that barred Commercial Banks from taking on the risks of Investment Banks. The Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 allowed for the proliferation of derivatives markets. Derivatives formed an "avatar economy" (a system of illusory value built atop the real economy). When debentures based on real estate turned out to be DogShit that caused a major Credit Crisis!
CosmicFork 2 months ago
Ever since the Occupy folks turned on their Furor, they have been hardly been in the media spotlight. Better get back to kissing his feet if you want Socialism/Commie/nazism
MervTheTerrible 2 months ago
He's correct. I've been telling people that at the core, the tea party and occupy have the same motivation. The BailOuts are stuck in people's throat. The Government changed the rules for the elite. All the rest of us go broke in business, and it's time lower our class and standard of living, with shame in tow. When those elite bastards stood before congress, and recieved fixed, low interest rate loans; they should have been treated like any of us, who goes bankrupt. IT WAS/IS WRONG!!
FlauntussFloyd 2 months ago
"Government isn't the solution it's the problem" Ronald Reagan
Entrepreneurs and their small enterprises are responsible for almost all the economic growth in the United States. Ronald Reagan
So all you idiots at ows go start a business and change the world.
sanity599 2 months ago
Outsourcing the means of production of an entire country is capitalists practicing capitalism.. the losers are the people of said country who must wrestle for the lessening ever lower paying jobs / means of earning.
cervantessssssssssss 2 months ago
Capitalism isnt bad, but it cannot be unregulated, And nowhere does he talk about the safety net. small c capitalism, small s socialist and small l libertarianism... all things in balance. too much socialism, not a good thing, too much capitalism, not a good thing. If you disagree, go back to reading Atlas Shrugged.
skepticalsinner 2 months ago
@skepticalsinner Can you be a lot free, and a little socialist? Can the government only have the power to take some of your paycheck and give it to others? Is there a way to stop the government from expanding that power once we grant it to them? Be careful about thinking that we can get away with some socialism. We can't.
apnwahoowa 2 months ago
FUCKING NAILED IT!!!!!!!
jinx121991 2 months ago
It may be necessary to become violent, but 1st we should follow the example of our nation's founders & peacefully protest at least until summertime
By then we should know if the Dem & GOP Parties are going to seriously adjust the tax code which has resulted in the top 10% having 90% of the FINANCIAL WEALTH of the nation
If they havent done so & still plan to suspend the US Const around their convention sites so no free speech will be allowed, you'll have waited long enough & be justified
DillonDee1 2 months ago
@DillonDee1 So you're going to revolt against the government for not taking the top 10%'s money and giving it to you? The founding fathers would not support your claim on other people paychecks. Your ideas are the opposite of what Thomas Jefferson had in mind when writing the Constitution and Dec. of Ind. This country was founded on the principles that all men are free, and all men are born with equal rights. Equal rights, not equals things. As my father taught me, fair is never equal.
apnwahoowa 2 months ago
@apnwahoowa --
"Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is
to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the
higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they
rise." -- Thomas Jefferson
And at no time did I say I was in a low tax bracket.
DillonDee1 2 months ago
@apnwahoowa
You need to take a civics class instead of learning your history from the right wing talking heads.
The founding fathers did not embrace that kind of senseless cutthroat ideology. The system they established supported the lower classes, it didn't exploit them.
Mathenaut 2 months ago
@apnwahoowa Any 1.3 billion Chinese skilled worker will take any 315 million american's job and get paid annually what the american makes weekly.. Globalization nor the exploitation of it was considered with your claims. Yes the top 10% will pay or there will be war.. That is a fact.
cervantessssssssssss 2 months ago
Why isn't "crony capitalism" simply the systemic, logical, and inevitable result of capitalism. Maybe there is only crony capitalism and this is all there ever was. What he's suggesting is that there was ever any other kind of capitalism. You can't show this historically, so really capitalism is just a ideal, a perfect abstraction which exists only on paper. If efficient markets are the product of capitalism, why isn't crony capitalism also a product of those very same markets?
abcdefg3332 2 months ago
@abcdefg3332 Because goverment shouldent be forcing banks to give out home loans to bad risks. Just as well as college tuition to every Jerk that doesnt wana grow up immediatly after highschool. The idea is that forcing Keynsian economic principles down our necks through an inflationary loan hub called the Federal Reserve.. isnt free markets at work. Thats Cronies divvying up special loans for there buddys with no goverment oversight. Both sides have valid points on this argument.
ashkaji 2 months ago
@ashkaji So you're anti-intellectual/anti college? Wow you must get laughed at constantly.
MrGrevy 2 months ago
"This capitalism is not working." What an idiot these occytards!!
SanEverett 2 months ago
Banking Deregulation was a Huge Factor in the Financial Meltdown of 2008. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 dropped the barriers that barred Commercial Banks from taking on the risks of Investment Banks. The Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 allowed for the proliferation of derivatives markets. Derivatives formed an "avatar economy" (a system of illusory value buily atop the real economy). When debentures based on real estate turned out to be DogShit that caused a major Credit Crisis!
CosmicFork 2 months ago
People don't get it as you can see by the top 2 comments. They don't understand that Gov. tells them what they want to hear, then passes the buck to a few choice corporate 'interest groups' they write the regulation, pass it back to inept politicians. They tack on a catchy title and pass it off as 'consumer protection'. It's a joke. But most people don't get that. Just like the difference between political parties is superficial, so is the separation of Government and Large Corporations.
Brajabu74 2 months ago in playlist Economics Playlist
This is what happens when you try to stuff 10lbs of shit in a 5lb bag. These losers will never create any wealth for themselves or our country. So why not take it from others. What a bunch of losers.
samspade1957 2 months ago in playlist Economics Playlist
The top 10% now has 90% of the FINANCIAL WEALTH of the nation & it's getting worse!
Obviously the 1st thing to do is put the income tax rates on the top 10% back about where they were under Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Bush1, or Clinton -- TAKE YOUR PICK!
DillonDee1 2 months ago
this is bullshit propaganda
akgregor 2 months ago
@akgregor
What do you for example consider wrong with allowing people to earn profit from producing things to satisfy consumer wants?
Illyrien 2 months ago in playlist Economics Playlist
Comment removed
akgregor 1 month ago
@Illyrien example(s): heroin - weapons grade plutonium
akgregor 1 month ago
@akgregor Exactly. I respect many professors in academia. I am a university graduate. But I have found that some people in academia are apologists of the system. Corporations always try to eliminate competition. The US Steel industry and Standard Oil are two examples. The problem is not the lack of constraints on government, but on corporations. There's an economic term called externality. That's when a corporation let's an uninvolved third party pay their cost.
USASecretHistory 2 months ago
face it, this is poor not wanting to be poor their whole lives, when rich get born that way.
PrivationProductions 2 months ago
Gee a video sponsored by super rich people, promoted on youtube by rich people, featuring people paid by the rich claiming that rich are not to blame. How on earth could this come to be? Libertarianism is just the apologetics of greed. It is the most heavily subsized idea and could never stand on its own in the free market of ideas.
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik
Libertarians are the only willing to face the market of ideas, everyone else seem quite willing to use state power to enforce their view.
Illyrien 2 months ago in playlist Economics Playlist
@Illyrien Nonsense, if they were willing to face the free market of ideas they wouldn't need to buy space on youtube like Mormons and Scientology do. They wouldn't spend multimillions on money losing propaganda organizations like Heritage, AFP,, AEI, Hoover, and ARI nor have to buy faculty positions at Universities with endowments. Milton freedman would need Patrons like the Koch Brothers to pay their way. Libertarianism has simply become apologetics for the crimes of billionaires.
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik Are all billionaires criminals? What is their crime?
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty Most are criminals. I took a course on criminology where we did one chapter on white collar crime and no one in the class could name one billionaire the the professor could pin felonies too. Kennedy's bootlegging and bribery, Rockafellers and Vanderbuilts extrortion sabotage market rigging, Edison extortion sabotage market rigging theft, Gates market rigging theft. Pick your billionaire and do some digging.
michalchik 2 months ago 6
@michalchik If they are criminals and you have evidence of their crimes then get a lawyer and pursue legal action. Of course Joe Kennedy, John Rockefeller and Thomas Edison are dead so good luck with that.
No doubt there are good and bad people everywhere and that applies to billionaires. I believe the worst billionaire that I have ever heard of is George Soros.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty First I have no standing. Second, the person with the biggest legal staff and control of the media almost always wins in this society. Third our government is too weak to take on the most powerful people in America. They own too many politicians and judges and the white collar crime division of our government are tiny and crippled.
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik You have no standing? Are you not a citizen of the U.S.?
I don't buy into the idea that ALL billionaires are corrupt. Just because you have picked out a few that are does not mean it is all or even the majority.
A Marxist mindset has permeated our culture. I don't know if you are a Marxist or not but regardless I think you are wrong to lump all rich people into the same category. If a crime has been committed then prosecute otherwise stop trying to "eat the rich".
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty Standing for civil suits requires the ability to demonstrate probable cause of personal harm, standing for criminal cases requires personal harm and the support of a prosecutor. If you don't have those things the judge will throw the case out. If you don't think billionaire are corrupt pick one and we will look at it, There might be a few but I can't find any. In addition to Marxist ideology, fascist and royalist ideology has permeated this society. I am none of the above
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik Well then by that same logic we should be examining the lives of the poor and the middle class as well. We need to go on a massive witch hunt to root out corruption.
Fascism is a variation of Marxism. I stand for individual liberty, the constitution and the country the founding fathers gave us. Our founders hated the class structure of England never wanted that here but the Marxists have reintroduced it. They wanted prosperity for everyone.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty "Fascism is a variation of Marxism." "the Marxists have reintroduced it (class system)" Both these statements are just utter clueless bullshit. You can not have freedom so long as the economy is control by other people whether they be in the the government or so called private sector. Read some Mussolini, read Sinclair, Read Marx, Read Adam Smith, read the federalist papers, Jefferson, Franklin and Madison and get a clue. You are sucking up propaganda.
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik I do read. I also understand. I know what collectivism is and Marx and Mussolini both were collectivists, as were Stalin, Mao and Hitler. As is Chavez and Castro.
You are right, we cannot have freedom is the economy is controlled by others. But who controls the economy, billionaires or the government?
One could argue that billionaire buy govt influence but that is only if the govt is corrupt otherwise they would have no control over anything.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@michalchik Your blanket assertion that the only way one can be billionaire is by breaking the law is childish. I don't know any billionaires but in this country one is innocent until proven guilty. I am not in a crusade against any group in this country especially those who have a few dollars more than me.
That is not propaganda, that is just common sense. Use your brain. If you know of a billionaire who has broken the law, file charges. It's just that simple.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty First of all I said almost not every. Second you still haven't named one to investigate. Your gut feelings doesn't trump the work of a professor of criminology that when put on the spot could back up his blanket assert. Fourth, innocent until proven guilty is a legal expedient designed to hold off abuse of the court not to give people realistic view of reality. No, they don't have a few more dollars that you, they have enough money to make you a slave.
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik I told you I don't know any billionaires and for that matter I probably don't know any millionaires either. I'm not talking about a gut feeling, I'm talking about people. If you take a cross section of any segment of society you are going to find good and bad and everything in between. That is true despite what your, most likely, Marxist professor told you in college.
For me to make a fair assessment of any billionaire I would need to know them first.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty What on earth makes u think billionaires are normal people? The process of becoming a billionaire selects for the most reckless, uncompromising, greedy, ambitious and materialistic people. Being a billionaire distorts your perception of money (its utility drops to near zero and it becomes purely a prestige item), you become a target of kidnapping and have to separate yourself and you can solve almost any problem by throwing money at. Power corrupts.
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik So you have done an in depth study and have met and talked with every billionaire alive. Is this true of Oprah Winfrey?
Where I live there is a billionaire who built and donates heavily to a children's cancer center. One year when his business didn't do so well he did not earn enough money to make his usual contribution (in the millions) so he took out a loan to give to the hospital.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@michalchik Lord Action's actual quote is, "Power TENDS to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Acton was referring to political power exercised by Kings and Popes. Billionaires only have power over the people they employ unless they collude with an already corrupt govt. Cut the govt out and their power goes back to influence over people they pay to work for them.
My focus is on the govt and not the billionaire because the govt affects my life, not the billionaire.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@michalchik I think it is misguided to focus on the billionaires. And like I said unless you can prove a crime, you have no qualms with them, I don't care how greedy you think they are.
Greed is an evil but so is envy and theft. Wealth redistribution is theft.
"Whoever claims the right to redistribute the wealth produced by others is claiming the right to treat human beings as chattel." - Ayn Rand
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty Theft is what our society defines it to be. There are no such things as property rights until we agree on them. This is what I mean by libertarians being apologists for the rich nothing more. Somehow usury, insider trading, and contract trickery is not theft while taxation is. For some reason libertarians seem to think that property rights exceed all other rights, life, equity, dignity. They also think you can own things you never made?
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik You don't understand natural law or natural rights. Property is a fundamental right in a free society. Property, in this country, has always been defined as anything that is produced as a result of your labor. That includes money and anything you purchase with money.
The people who try to obfuscate the definition of property are those who want to take that right and other natural rights away from the individual.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty I understand natural rights perfectly. It is an archaic notion left over from when people thought that God was up in heaven writing gravity and moral laws into physical reality. It is basically a way to say shut up I am right and I don't have a reason. There is nothing natural about property rights. Your right to a piece of property is established by agreement in the society and end there. Murder and theft would be impossible if it violated a natural law.
michalchik 2 months ago 6
@michalchik Wow what a totalitarian you are. Even if you don't believe in God the concept of natural rights not being something that man can take away from you is vastly important. It had nothing to do with a religious argument of who is right or wrong.
It appears that you would prefer to relegate the ownership of your right to the government. Good luck with that. Historically it never has turned out very good for the individual.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@michalchik "This is what I mean by libertarians being apologists for the rich nothing more". That implies that there is something inherently bad about being rich. Who made you judge and jury? I'm not a libertarian but I have strong libertarian leanings and if anything libertarians are apologists for freedom and nothing more.
So I would reply to that absurd comment by saying that Socialists are apologists for tyranny.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty "Socialists are apologists for tyranny." I agree, they often are. The USSR was full of socialist apologists for their tyranny and I would oppose them too. The USSR was dominated by that kind of insanity. Now the libertarians are the ones supported by the powerful as apologists for plutocratic tyranny. I don't subscribe to an ideology I treasure individual rights as a social construct useful as a means to the end of general welfare.
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik If what you say about Libertarians is true then why haven't we ever had a Libertarian president? Why haven't we had more Libertarian congressmen?
What you don't get is that a free market is NOT what many powerful corporations want. They like not needing consumers to keep the business afloat, it take the pressure off. They would much rather take gov't money, it much easier to get. I don't know any Libertarians who support corporatism.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@michalchik "I don't subscribe to an ideology" YES YOU DO! Even if you think you don't you are passively supporting collectivism. Your opposition to the free market tells me volumes that you do not understand freedom. You do not understand how so few people in the history of mankind have ever lived with any kind of freedom. How this nation was once the freest nation to have ever existed and you want to through it all away.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty No! collectives are a tools, just like individual rights and markets are. Unlike idiot libertarians I don't think a single tool is a solution to every problem and an end unto itself. I can actually cope with more than one idea at a time. I use hammers, I like hammers, i don't eat dinner with hammers or worship hammers as natural law. There is room for the idea forks in my head too. That's a problem with ideologues, they have to assume every else is.
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik Those "idiot" libertarians only want to maximize your freedom. If you think that playing around with other "tools" is going to make you free you are the "idiot". There is no "tool" that allows a person to live the best life possible and in doing so makes other lives better then freedom of the individual. You would rather flirt with tyranny because you think it has value. I suggest you move to another country rather than try to screw this one up more than it already is.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty Those idiot libertarians want to trash the one protection you have, democracy, to keep warlords from stamping all over freedom. The person with the most money gets the most guns, the person with the most guns makes the rules, your precious natural rights don't stop bullets. Freedom doesn't protect you from from the freedom of other people to smash your head in. Kings are nothing but land lords with hired thugs forcing you to pay rent.
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik - Democracy is tyranny of the majority. How can it not promote warlords?
Your statement about kings is largely correct but I think it applies to pretty much anyone who ends up in a position to initiate force against others without the affected population taking issue with it.
StateExempt 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty Anyway, who is your virtuous billionaire that you think has not committed felony crimes in the process of getting his billions. (if you pick inheritors we get to look at the source of the money). Pick a major corporation if you prefer.
michalchik 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty Google "Wells Fargo" Money Laundering Mexican drug cartels Bloomberg
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik Why then are billionaires rarely libertarian? Sure there are a few, but no more so than the general public. Nor is it clear how billionaires would benefit from the type of severely restricted government libertarians espouse. This makes as much sense as claiming that liberalism is apologetics for billionaires. Billionaires benefit from the status quo.
eventhisidistaken 2 months ago
@eventhisidistaken Billionaires benefit from lower marginal taxes, less regulation, liberalization of trade, removal of conflicts prohibition against collusion, sell off of public assets, removal of pollution laws, tort reform, removal of safety laws, removal of government monitoring of fraud and product dangers and government small enough to easily bribe. that status quo is good for them, Libertarian reforms is far better. Unleash the free market is code for the Rich Rule.
michalchik 2 months ago
@eventhisidistaken
There are different types of billionaires. Those that make money in the market by satisfying consumer wants (market entrepeneurs) and those that make money through the state (political entrepeneurs). The first one is the ones libertarians like, the other is the one everyone else keeps creating.
Illyrien 2 months ago
@eventhisidistaken When I see a libertarian go after corporate welfare and government support of corporate power first instead of breaks for the rich and want to see the caps taken off torts, oppose judicial overrides of jury decisions, support unions, actually push the removal of the legal protections corporations have against damages and crimes, and actually fight for the common mans rights then I will believe you are something other than gullible pawns for the plutocrats.
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik
Since both republicans and democrats actively use the state to help them pursue their statists interest with the stolen money of the tax payers, then how can you be angry at a few pro-freedom organizations receiving voluntary contributions?
Libertarians dont help billionaires at all, since most are crooks created by your state.
Illyrien 2 months ago
@Illyrien I don't support any propaganda from the crooks and thieves at the top whether it be democratic, republican or libertarian. Libertarianism is just their biggest scam yet to finish destroying democracy and the rule of law and complete the fascist plutocracy. It is an insane scheme that does not hold up to economics 101 unless your goal is to enrich a few at the cost of the wealth, health and freedom of the many. It is as stupidly utopian as communism and a scam just like it.
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik
Libertarianism isnt utopian, it just provide a framework to limit people from aggression against others. As for economics, since libertarians is freedom, its economic system is capitalism, the only effective system discovered so far.
Illyrien 2 months ago
@Illyrien "it just provide a framework to limit people from aggression against others."
No it doesn't it is the pure utopian belief that if we make up this nonaggression principle and get rid of government people will start respecting everyones rights. Every system in the world works if people play by the rules. Money has the power to force other people to do things through violence, fraud, exploitation and coercion. Every tyranny in history is simply the power of wealth.
michalchik 2 months ago
@Illyrien And I am not arguing against market economics. I think it is a valuable tool for allocation of resources. I am just not an idiotic ideological purest that loves oversimplifying things and pretending that one tool solves all our problems. Capitalism kills open markets because of the competitive displacement principle, it does nothing to optimize positive of negative externalities, it trashes commons, and creates no public goods. It also co-opts the government it needs to run.
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik I love your comment: "Gee, a video sponsored by super rich people, (i.e. the Koch Bros), promoted on YouTube by rich people, featuring a professor bought off by the rich, claiming that the rich are not to blame. How could this be? Libertarianism is just the apologetics of greed." And you're right, it's one of the most heavily subsidized, and absolutely terrible ideas in the history of mankind. Just like the Fantasy Religions of Scientology & Mormonism, Oh Yeah, and Catholicism too!
CosmicFork 2 months ago
Pepper Spray! That sounds deli-AHH I WAS WRONG I WAS HORRIBLY WRONG
MrPwner123 2 months ago
Many occupiers just see what they want to see and they see big business as the problem. This mantra has been ingrained in there brain washed heads. I think many would like to get to Washington but logistically just couldn't get there and sum are scared to go to Washington because Washington has the guns and power so its easier to just lash out at wall street. I think those protesters need to spend there energy making sure they vote only honest and good people to represent them.
MrSpan0701 2 months ago
@MrSpan0701 You are assuming that the voting system still works in America. It has been compromised by the control of mass media. Voter disenfranchisement. Gaming the nomination process. Hackable voting machines. Paid for turn key smear campaigns.
michalchik 2 months ago
@michalchik I totally agree with you and that has to be addressed fervently by the masses of people too. I think if people wake up, get interested in politics, not just every 4 years but constantly as a civic duty, we can eventually vote out the scum that rig the system when the american people aren't looking or to lazy/distracted to look.
MrSpan0701 2 months ago
LMAO YOUTUBE AND GOOGLE PROMOTE a video against LARGE Corporations ? BAHAHAHAHAHAH this if fucking rich !
MWJEFF1 2 months ago
Leave it ta google and youtube too promote a video against capitalism. FUCKING EPIC.
MWJEFF1 2 months ago
youtube.com/watch?v=byhRNFY-P38
bostonsportsfan58 2 months ago
gov should cancel debt? im not even going to respond to a statement that's that stupid. No institution would lend if it didnt have to be paid back. and lending is necessary for the economy. With regard to the Fed, these people are not educated in economics. the Fed has done EVERYTHING correctly with regards to monetary policy. If you disagree, get educated in economics. Ben Bernanke knows what he is doing. If you watched his press conferences instead of advocating socialism, you'd know that.
bostonsportsfan58 2 months ago
"crony capitalism?" How about if just for once, we tell the truth and call it what it really is:
National Socialism
sanitydotorg 2 months ago
How can people start producing human value needs when major corporations over-run the American Government. I mean seriously, you want a hamburger your more likely are going to go to a McDonald's, Burger King, Five Guys, etc. It gets harder and harder for the little man to grow, and these major corporations not only take away job opportunities but they suck up the tax payers money. The fat cats are only getting fatter. Its time to boycott more corporations especially Walmart which is the worst
NateJames1 2 months ago
He doesn't offer any real solutions. What he's actually saying is that government is the problem. Therefore, we need more deregulation. Well this is exactly how this country got into this mess. Government will always give handouts as long as the corrosive role that money and lobbyists play in the electoral process continues unabated. See, I can write like a professor too. What bullshit. The courts make things worse. The Supreme Court's decision in Citizens United is one example.
USASecretHistory 2 months ago
@USASecretHistory You said it yourself. "Government will always give handouts as long as the corrosive role that money and lobbyists play in the electoral process continues unabated."
That's what this guy is suggesting. Not allowing this to happen any more. It's not rocket surgery. It's just been going of for so long that the average American just assumes it's normal and next to impossible to fix. In reality it's pretty simple.
ChrisCapel1998 2 months ago
This video is right on point
chiggero 2 months ago
socialism: an economic theory in which the means of production and distribution are vested and owned in the community as a whole; not to be confused with communism
ArkLover27 2 months ago
Profit-motive and endless consumption is a cancer. Capitalism is not sustainable- socially, economically, ecologically, spiritually, etc. Capitalism fosters wealth stratification and thus power stratification, it encourages hierarchies, it encourages exploitation of resources/populations/other species/workers/consumers/etc., it also encourages various forms of wage-slavery which, in the real world, leads to a deficit of autonomy/fulfillment/freedom/humanity for most within an economic system.
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago 4
@IngeniousEpithet The only alternative to Capitalism is some form of government control and redistribution. Do you want to live in a country where the fruits of your labor are not your's to keep? Where people who don't work or are capable of taking care of themselves have a legal claim to the money you worked hard for? All economic systems besides Capitalism are anti-freedom. One can't be free and have a overreaching government that takes 40% 50%, 60% of their money and gives it to others.
apnwahoowa 2 months ago
@apnwahoowa
"Do you want to live in a country where the fruits of your labor are not your's to keep?"
Perhaps you aren't familiar with the plight of the working class in capitalism? Most workers don't get to keep what they make - The results of their labor are taken by others higher in the hierarchy, sold for profit, and the workers themselves are given a fraction of it.
Even better, when losses are suffered, it is taken out of the worker's wages.
You haven't a clue.
Mathenaut 2 months ago
@apnwahoowa
MYTH #1:
"The only alternative to Capitalism is some form of government control/redistribution."
-You completely fail to realize that Capitalism is BORN of state-society and ownership (which can ONLY be defended by a state apparatus).
MYTH #2:
"Living in a country where you keep all your income"
-So long as you live under a nation-state, you will be taxed, there is no way around it. If you're advocating a stateless society, then you cannot have Capitalism, it's simple really.
...
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
@apnwahoowa
...
MYTH #3:
"People who don't work are all thieves/mooches off of welfare/taxes"
-Wrong. Most people on welfare LEGITIMATELY NEED assistance and are not some kind of evil insidious leech. It's funny how people like yourself have allowed yourself to be duped into hating the poor and defending the rich. The game is rigged and the rich run it, yet you still play useful idiot for them. You also maintain an oblivious assumption that the ECONOMIC system is perfectly okay, when it's not.
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
@apnwahoowa
...
MYTH #4:
"All economic systems besides Capitalism are anti-freedom"
-That's one of the dumbest things I've heard. You've obviously not researched any alternatives, how can you pretend the things you say are true?? Do you EVER make an honest effort to study other economic systems or alternatives?? Or do you just read what Mises and right-wingers slander about "eeevilll socialism!!"?? You fail to realize that Capitalism fosters THEFT by a moneyed class over workers/consumers/etc.
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
@IngeniousEpithet So what's your solution? Occupiers sure like to complain, but they have yet to offer any solutions.
vtgamehendge 2 months ago
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
@IngeniousEpithet What do you propose as an alternative?
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
@IngeniousEpithet "Social Democracy"? Isn't that a code word for Socialism? "Participatory Economics"? That sounds like Free Market economics but I have a feeling that your definition includes heavy controls on private business. There is nothing free about that. Free the market and free the people.
I don't know where you are pulling these code words from but how about small limited govt, like our founders gave us and after that leave us the hell alone.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty
Oh my god... just shut up already, you have no clue what you're advocating... lost in feel-good buzzwords and good ol' boy wannabe sentiments.
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
@IngeniousEpithet I know exactly what I am advocating. I am advocating that the government leave the individual alone unless that individual is causing harm to another. Get off the backs of private business and let people prosper.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
IN A FREE MARKET, THERE IS NOTHING PREVENTING PRIVATE/SPECIAL INTERESTS FROM TAKING CONTROL OF OUR PUBLIC GOVERNMENT. WHICHEVER WAY YOU CUT IT, WE NEED BETTER REGULATION/TAXATION, AND THE MOST INTELLIGENT FORM OF THIS WILL PROBABLY RESULT IN INCREASES. VOODOO ECONOMICS WILL NOT SAVE US... THE MARKET IS NOT INFALLIBLE, ESPECIALLY WHEN UNREGULATED.
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
@IngeniousEpithet WITH SMALL LIMITED GOVT, LIKE WHAT OUR FOUNDERS GAVE US, PRIVATE BUSINESS CANNOT AFFECT GOVT. JUST LIKE HOW IT USED TO BE UNTIL THE PROGRESSIVE ERA. THERE WERE MANY BUSINESSES THAT TRIED PRIOR TO THE PROGRESSIVE ERA BUT THEY FAILED TO DO ANYTHING TO AFFECT POLICY. THE PROGRESSIVES (IE LIBERALS/SOCIALISTS) GAVE US CORPORATISM AND LIKE YOU'VE ALWAYS DONE, YOU BLAME CORPORATISM ON THE FREE MARKET. THE FREE MARKET IS THE ANTITHESIS OF CORPORATISM.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty
So humor me... what property (no pun intended) of free markets MAGICALLY prevents businesses from affecting government WITHOUT placing regulations in place that PREVENT business from hijacking government?? Oh and corporatism is a RIGHT-WING PHENOMENON, have you not studied anything of it? Mussolini, perhaps? Go ahead, ask an actual historian about Mussolini, he was RIGHT-WING.
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
@IngeniousEpithet The limits should be imposed on the government not business. If government stops getting in bed with business then that is the magic you are speaking of.
There are and have been several Progressives in the Republican party over the last century. Up until about 20 years ago there were still a handful of Democrats who believed in the Free Market but they have all been rooted out.
Both parties have engaged heavily in corporatism.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@IngeniousEpithet You are so off-base about Fascism it isn't even funny. Fascism is a variation of Socialism. You need to read about Mussolini. Mussolini was considered one of the intellectual giants by the Socialists. He was an avid Socialist. When he became a dictator he modified Socialism just a little and called it Fascism.
The are both based on collectivism where the individual's rights are subservient to the collective. It's all slavery.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty No, you are totally off-base about Fascism. Here is a direct quote from Mussolini: "Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail." Does that sound like someone who supports Socialism? The labor leader Bellanca said: Mussolini: "Destroyed many of the Labor Unions and reorganized them into Fascisti Unions on a program totally opposed to strikes, and forcing "cooperation" between Capital and labor." Does that sound like a "Socialist"?? ... I think not!
CosmicFork 2 months ago 2
@CosmicFork Maybe instead of finding random quotes you should read about him. He parted with the socialists before he took control of Italy. But that did not mean he went went toward individual liberty. He was a dictator, a central planner.
He was a Progressive and was revered by the early 20th century American Progressives, as was Stalin and Hitler. He claimed that Fascism was similar to Corporatism because it is a merger of the state and corporate power.
Read a book or two!
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty
HITLER AND MUSSOLINI USED AND PERVERTED SOCIALIST RHETORIC IN ORDER TO APPEAL TO THE MASSES AND GAIN POWER!!! Duh!! After they gained sufficient power, they HUNTED DOWN actual Socialists, Communists, Liberals, minorities, unions, etc. etc. Saying that Hitler was a Socialist is like saying that North Korea really is a "democratic peoples' republic"... it's DOUBLESPEAK. Read a book yourself it's called 1984.
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
@IngeniousEpithet And what is that Socialist rhetoric? Is it not still used by the current socialists? Essentially it all boils down to vote for me and I will give you free stuff. And just in case the people ask where that free stuff is coming from, then the socialists will say we'll "eat the rich".
The game is the same only the faces have change.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty
THERE ARE NO CURRENT SOCIALISTS!!! THEY'RE ALL CORPORATISTS!!! Jesus Christ... how the FUCK has Glenn Beck convinced so many idiots that this isn't a tyrannical Capitalist (NOT Socialist) society...
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
@IngeniousEpithet If there are no current socialists the what are you? Who are the Socialist Party USA? What is Europe?
Glenn Beck didn't have to tell me anything to realize that there is no such thing as a tyrannical capitalist. That just defies logic. I can stand in front of a McDonalds all day long and no one will force me to buy a Big Mac. I can stand in front of ANY business and no one will force me to buy their product. THERE IS NO CAPITALIST TYRANNY. ITS A MYTH
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty
I'm an ANARCHIST, have I not already stated this? I do have Socialist leanings, but they're Libertarian. As far as statism is concerned, I support Social Democracy (so long as we have centralized markets/governments) and THAT is what you see in EUROPE (esp. Germany, France, and Scandinavian countries). And those countries are actually doing a lot better than we are in just about every single way (including happiness/freedom/intelligence).
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
@IngeniousEpithet Careful now. You got some dancing to do when you mention European countries. You wouldn't want to mention some of the other "Social Democracies" that are falling apart faster than the speed of light. Or the almost eminent demise of the EU. Because there are quite a few European countries, Greece, Italy, Portugal, etc that will be collapsing any minute now under the heavy burden Socialism places on people.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty
No such thing as a tyrannical Capitalist???? Are you KIDDING??? I'm just gonna pretend you didn't say that. If you SERIOUSLY have such a childish lack of depth in your analysis of Capitalism that you think McDonalds (and other similar entities) are non-coercive simply because they don't force you to buy their products... then I don't know what to say except you're seriously lacking in knowledge/imagination and heavy in denial. Theres more to McDonalds than their store-fronts
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
@IngeniousEpithet Okay so when you are done gasping at my allegedly ridiculous comment COULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW EXACTLY AM I BEING COERCED AGAINST MY WILL TO DO ANYTHING BY ANY BUSINESS???????????
So watching a TV commercial puts people under some hypnotic trance where they lose all self control and go buy the product? You must be one of the most weak minded persons I've ever heard of. Your home must be full to the rafters with stuff they've made you buy?
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty
lol, cmon man... can you SERIOUSLY not think of ANY way in which markets/businesses/property/economics may force you (directly/indirectly, consciously/unconsciously) to live or behave a certain way? It's funny you bring up advertising, seems like you need to read the book "Propaganda" by Edward Bernays and especially its use by ADVERTISERS to manipulate the populace. Is it direct/physical coercion? No... but in a way, it's far more effective/insidious/deceitful.
IngeniousEpithet 1 month ago
@IngeniousEpithet No doubt. There is a whole science behind advertisement to do whatever it can to influence you to buy a product but they cannot take away your free will. But by the same token look at how movies, TV, music, friends etc all influence your life. Look at just how many people, upon meeting a person named Dave, will say "Dave's not here" and many have no clue that it came from a Cheech and Chong skit from almost 40 years ago.
HoldingOnToLiberty 1 month ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty
ADDENDUM...
When Capitalists OWN the land, OWN the resources, OWN our government, OWN the patents (or steal them), OWN lines of genetic code (which they shockingly do), OWN the means of production, OWN the banks, and RUN the market/economic system... do you SERIOUSLY THINK that you can just decide to opt-out by free will?? No, the majority of the planet is ENSLAVED by Capitalism and its benefactors. Ever heard that money is the root of all evil? Capitalism perpetuates greed.
IngeniousEpithet 1 month ago
@IngeniousEpithet But who are the Capitalists? They are us, the people. You are trying to make it sound like they are a different species altogether. We the people individually OWN the land, the resources, the government, the patents, the means of production, the banks and we the people should be allowed to run the market/economy without a meddling government distorting markets and stealing money.
If I am enslaved I am enslaved to myself because I am a Capitalist.
HoldingOnToLiberty 1 month ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty
I'm not talking about the common man... a considerable portion of the population is INDEBTED to the real Capitalists, they don't OWN their cars/houses/land/etc. We are merely Capitalism's servants, its participants, its victims, its consumers, we were born into it, most of us know nothing else. The more you study the economic realities, the more you realize that THEY is a real thing, the ultra-rich barons, industrialists, and multinational corporations who are truly separate
IngeniousEpithet 1 month ago
@IngeniousEpithet There you go again. Capitalists are not a separate species. Capitalist are indebted to Capitalists. Yes I know that debt is slavery, I was in debt for several years. No one forced me to take a loan, it was all my doing. No one forced me to stay in debt either.
Life is not what is portrayed in movies. You have to make major changes to your lifestyle and give up stuff to get out of debt and realize no one owes you anything.
HoldingOnToLiberty 1 month ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty
Also... there are no real alternatives to OPT-OUT towards... Capitalism has spread like a virus to all the corners of the world just like Christianity, civilization/nation-states, totalitarian agriculture, western lifestyles/values/habits/imagery, industrialization, etc. etc. Capitalism is a socio-economic virus that, despite any of its benefits, has produced harmful downfalls that outweigh them, at least in the long-term.
IngeniousEpithet 1 month ago
@IngeniousEpithet And whats your problem with Christianity? What is it to you what someone believes in or how they choose to live their life? Come on, you're the supposed anarchist! Why should you care? Who are you to tell another person what they can or cannot believe in?
HoldingOnToLiberty 1 month ago
Comment removed
IngeniousEpithet 1 month ago
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@HoldingOnToLiberty
Markets were BORN with governments, markets ARE a distortion of HUMANITY and the PLANET. Governments and markets distort EACH OTHER, but most of all they distort, exploit, enslave, domesticate, control, and victimize humanity and the other species that inhabit this planet. It's not a mystery, it's an extremely observable truth to those who don't fear the repercussions of opening their eyes and deeply questioning everything they've been raised to accept and embrace.
IngeniousEpithet 1 month ago
@IngeniousEpithet Go and get a bible and read that verse. Money is not the root of all evil. The LOVE of money is the root. Capitalism does NOT perpetuate greed any more than Socialism does. Greed is a human failing and no system of govt can promote or discourage it. Morality and religion are the only cure for human failings.
I also KNOW that I can opt out of whatever I want because I do it all the time. The only thing I KNOW that I cannot opt out of is a tyrannical govt
HoldingOnToLiberty 1 month ago
@IngeniousEpithet Oh and you want to talk about Orwell's 1984????? Do you know who he was writing that book about???? You really might rethink using that book against me while defending collectivism.
I gotta tell my friends about that comment. That's just too funny. A collectivist using 1984 to attack a libertarian leaning conservative. I think George Orwell, himself, is probably laughing in his grave. That was double plus funny.
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty
Yes I want to talk about 1984 because many of the SAME CONCEPTS APPLY. Orwell was writing, largely, about tyrannical state-Communist societies. But it was NOT a bash against collectivism. In FACT, if you knew ANYTHING about George Orwell, you'd know that he wrote Homage to Catalonia SINGING PRAISES FOR REVOLUTIONARY ANARCHISTS/SOCIALISTS during the Spanish Revolution. They were ANTI-STATE, ANTI-CAPITALIST, ANTI-FASCIST and ANTI-STATE-COMMUNIST.
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty You people on "The Right" still can't seem to get it through your heads that Fascism is extremism of the political RIGHT, not the left! Historically Fascism is: 1. Glorification of the Nation State. 2. Glorification of Military Conquest. 3. Opposition to Trade Unions. 4. Opposition to Labor Parties. 5. Opposition to Communism, Anarchism, Socialism, and all Left Egalitarian Class Movements and Doctrines. & Glorification of a Leadership Cult. Fascism is extremism of THE RIGHT.
CosmicFork 2 months ago 4
@CosmicFork You socialists have no clue what you are talking about. If Fascism is to the right of Socialism is only by a quarter of an inch or less. You have bought into the propaganda. Where on your scale does liberty fit if at either end is totalitarianism? Where do the anarchists fit in? Your scale makes no sense and yet is so often referred to by so many people it is just accepted as fact. Cont
HoldingOnToLiberty 2 months ago
@HoldingOnToLiberty
You need to check out the Political Compass, it's a very simple/elegant and accurate portrayal of the various politico-economic via a more three-dimensional scale. Totalitarian versus Libertarian on one axis, and Left-wing versus Right-wing on the other. An Anarchist (as I am) is a left-wing Libertarian, or Libertarian Socialist (as Noam Chomsky defines himself). Here:
" politicalcompass. org "
IngeniousEpithet 2 months ago