Did Jesus Rise from the Dead - Qureshi vs. Abdallah - 01 - Opening Statements

[AnsweringChristians1]

The Gospel writers just made up these predictions and put them into the mouth of Jesus. Because int the Gospel of Q-- the Q documents never mention anything about Jesus so called death or resurrection. This was Paul's Gospel which beat out the disciples Gospel (whatever it may have been) and Paul's concept of a visionary or spiritual resurrection slowly became a phyiscal one with the Gospel writers--- but the fact remains the Gospels aren't history they are myth.

[AnsweringChristians1]

As for the other New Testament documents like the Gospels, Acts, the other epistles, Revelation-- simple, they are not reliable. The fact is we don't know who wrote them, where they wrote them, who their sources were or whether their sources were reliable or not. Thus these New Testament documents aren't reliable. As for Jesus so called "Passion Predictions" they are historically questionable because if Jesus really made these claims why were the disciples surprised when he appeared to them?

[AnsweringChristians1]

For evidence of this see “The Post-Mortem Vindication of Jesus in the Sayings Gospel Q” by Daniel Smith.

[AnsweringChristians1]

So the earliest Christians, including the disciples were preaching something much different from what Paul was preaching about Jesus. Paul and his followers preached a Jesus who was resurrected given a new spiritual body—while the disciples and the other followers of Jesus were preaching Jesus assumption or disappearance into heaven.

[AnsweringChristians1]

Paul later on comes, starts having Demonic hallunications (See 2 Corinthians) and passes it off as visions and starts to talk about Jesus death and resurrection for some reason. It’s possible he was influenced by Greco Roman Paganism (but I am not sure about this). However Paul is talking about Jesus death as some kind of Old Testament prophecy and his resurrection in very visionary and spiritual terms.

[AnsweringChristians1]

what I suspect happened is something like this: Jesus survived his crucifixion, was buried in a tomb, and later was later assumpted into heaven (much like the Old Testament figures like Elijah and Enoch) from the tomb (by a miracle from Allah) and then in a vision or dream appeared to one or more of his Disciples, convincing them he had ascended to heaven. After that the disciples were preaching the worship of one God and the assumption of Jesus into heaven.

[AnsweringChristians1]

In any case Christians CANNOT prove the following: That Jesus died, That the disciples believed he died and resurrected and all of them died for that belief, that what Paul is saying about the alleged death and resurrection is true and that the Gospels and the rest of the writings of the New Testament are reliable when it comes to Jesus. There is simply NO way Christians can prove any of this. All the Christians can prove is the New Testament is early but there is no evidence that it is reliable

[AnsweringChristians1]

“The Post-Mortem Vindication of Jesus in the Sayings Gospel Q” by Daniel Smith. This is a recent book that has come out and it is based on his phd thesis in which he argues for an assumption as being the more earlier form of proclamation in the preachings of the early Christians and not a ressurection. He has also surmarised another German scholar’s arguments, a la Zeller, who’s work has not been translated into English but who also argues for an assumption from the Empty tomb.

[AnsweringChristians1]

As for the Gospels-- simple, they are not reliable. Yes, they are early but that doesn't mean they are realiable. For the unreliability of the New Testament Gospels see the works of Bart Ehrman especially his newest book "Forged" and "Jesus Interrupted" and "Lost Christianities".

[AnsweringChristians1]

It was Paul and his followers which came up with the so called "resurrection" of Jesus however they were preaching the "resurrection" in very visionary terms. Also Paul believed that Jesus was ressurected given a new spiritual body and that spiritual resurrection slowly evolved into a phyiscal resurrection as time went on.

[AnsweringChristians1]

In any case, whatever Nabeel said can easily be proven false, for example we don't know what the disiciples actually believed-- there is no evidence that shows the disciples died for their alleged belief in the crucifixion and resurrection-- there is no way Christians can prove or show how they died. In case of Ressurection-- there is an earlier book called The Gosepl of Q, which has a saying in Q 13:34-35 that Jesus was assumped into heaven and that was more earlier than the resurrection term

[shalimaar444]

when the lord JESUS were paying for the human kind sins, the killer son of a bich muhammad was not even swimming yet in the sperm in his father balls!!

hahahahahaha!

still manage to come out nowhere to distroy the hwy to the father JESUS had left for us. warming his balls betwen little girls legs, when he's not beheading 700 peoples in one shoot.

[MrHolmboe]

As an atheist, this topic is meaningless to me. But from the debate point of view, Nabeel Qureshi won it really easily.

[godswordsheal]

@MrHolmboe Too bad Muslims can't see how bad their logic is...even from an objective opinion.

[ADAJ3]

Nebeel Q. wins easily

[joshj15]

one of the most one-sided debates I think i'll ever see

[LothairOfLorraine]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus Actually, it is the Quran that is not to be trusted. After all, as you pointed out, Acts is a permanent record of the account of the Passion, and the aftermath. Like it ot not, Acts was your source and I see nothing to think St. Peter set any limitation on the divinity or authority of Jesus. Also, since Acts is a first century source written by a physician and historian, I'll let you read Richard Pervo all by yourself.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

You Christians can't brush aside Paul either.... so you Christians are left with three choices:

1) all Christians must put down women,

2) all people of sensitivity and conscience must cease to call themselves Christian,

3) everyone must pretend it was never written.

I suggest you do the 2nd-- Christianity is a myth. It ain't real.

[nightsvipe2]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus u are so rong i belive people should belive watever they want if u want to belive that jesus rised from the dead then go ahed im not gonna hate u for wat u belive in its ur opinon other people should do the same stop hateing on muslims(me)

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

But to make things worse for Christian women:

Paul explains that "the natural use" of women is to act as sexual objects for the pleasure of men. (Romans 1:27) etc.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus Men are made in the image of God; women in the image of men. Women were created from and for men. (I Corinthians 11:7-9). So grab a Christian woman and force to do anything you want, then quote scripture. Have fun!

[LothairOfLorraine]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus Woman was made from the side of Adam. Not his head or his feet.

It is only in Islam that women are the kind of object that you attribute to the true Word of God.

Please quite trying to remake Christ to fit the image of your 'prophet'.

[MayonR]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus Against nature,not natural,contrary to the intentions of the Creator,unnatural use=homosexual acts. It is not implying a women is only to be used for sex. Please be honest since it is quite a jump and manipulating of the meaning to say this.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

So we see no evidence for anything Christianity teaches. There is no evidence that Jesus is divine, there is no evidence that he died on the cross and there is certainly no evidence he was resurrected. As for Joesphus and Tactius? Well Joesphus T.F. is fabrication by dishonest church father Eusbieus and Tacticus if it is reliable is nothing more that hersay--- a repeat of what Christians were already saying. Leave Christianity-- come to the truth, ISLAM.

[LothairOfLorraine]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus There are so many theological and historical inaccuracies in what you write.

The evidence for Jesus' divinity, when intelligently understood, is his Incarnation and a self-emptying sacrifice that once and for all time established an ethical norm which emphasises virtues like self-denial and poverty [II Cor 6:4-10]. Christ's own character testifies to these truth. Very different from the bloodthirtsty rock worshipper whom you call a 'prophet'.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@LothairOfLorraine LMAO you serious dude? Jesus was violent, angry and intolerant. Jesus said many violent things like Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34). Sound like the prince of peace to you?

Jesus calls his opponents (the Jews) the sons of the devil. (John 8:44). Sounds like your fake savior was very Anti Semitic! Not a dude I wanna follow.

[DiscipleInstinct]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus because there is no peace... Jesus is coming to get the fathers work done, Bring about the Kingdom of God. Jesus was not a violent person... He didnt kill 700 jews ..... he actually took beatings repeatedly... why dont you read more often.

[DiscipleInstinct]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus remember when he tells them that those who live by the sword die by the sword ... remember telling peter to put done the sword.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@LothairOfLorraine ALSO Jesus said he was a prophet (see Matthew 10:40-41). ALSO PETER SAID JESUS WAS A MAN AS WELL (SEE ACTS 2:14, 22). Moreover there is nothing in ACTS that says Jesus is divine. Jesus was Jewish Prophet, as time went on he became more and more divine. Read a book for once, read Bart Ehrman's newest book Jesus interuptted.

[LothairOfLorraine]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus Acts is only a small part of the Covenant, but let''s review, since you insist on using it as a source. Peter confirmed the life of Jesus as an historical event [Ac 2:22] but also confirms his death 'by nailing him to a cross' [Ac 2:23] so there goes the Quran and the prophet Muhammad. If nothing else, you just refuted Islam. Acts 2 also confirms Jesus' freedom from death after his crucifixion [Ac 2:31]. Good work and nicely done. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

Overall most people are not truth seekers. They are deluded with faith-- faith in Jesus, a man whom his followers can't even prove he existed. A religion that an early church father admitted was nothing different from paganism. A religion that says women are slaves for men and they have to shut up in churches. Sorry--- not a religion I wanna follow! 

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

Also Inanna (1500 BCE) was crucified and resurrected. This was a huge embarrssment to both Mary Jo Sharp and David Wood and they both lied in regards to Inanna. Same with Apolonis of Tyana he also was resurrected and appeared to his followers. So the uniquness of Christianity? Out the window

[LothairOfLorraine]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus Inanna was never crucified. Give me a citation to the source you are relying on. Inanna is said to have descended into the underworld, but absolutely no credible source placed her on a cross of any kind.

Nobody expects a Muslim to enter into meaningful dialogue, but you should at least try to be honest with the information.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@LothairOfLorraine same with Christians. Nobody expects a Christian into meaningful dialogue as well, because no matter how badly they are refuted they still beat their chest in victory. Prove me wrong in regards to Justin Matyr admitting pagan influences in Christianity. You won't be able to. Prove me wrong in regards to the spiritual resurrection of Jesus. YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO. Prove me wrong in regards to the historians (the fabrication of Joesphus and the unreliablity of Tacitus) YOU CAN'T.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus AND TRY TO prove me wrong in regards to the unreliability of the Gospels. YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO. So Christians lose this battle--- and Islam wins. Get over it.

[LothairOfLorraine]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus Talk about beating your chest after claiming a victory that isn't yours.

The Gospels are far more reliable than the Quran. Gospels have several streams of data and tradition from disparate regions making their way into the Gospel narratives. The Quran is poorly written poetry recited by one man anc collected two decades after his death. I'll take the Gospels.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@LothairOfLorraine Really? So you'll take the Gospels which contain utter non sense (zombies come out of graves in Matthew 27:53-54, come on), Jesus friends thinking he is a nutjob (see Mark 3:21), Paul admitting he is a nut job (see 2 Corinthians 5:13) ,etc. LIKE I SAID BEFORE WE DON'T KNOW WHO WROTE THE GOSPELS AT ALL.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus Moreover the Gospels are myths. The genre of the Gospels are myth. Read a book for once in your life. Read Charles Talbert's book What is a Gospel, Richard Pervo's book The Mystery of Acts, Denis MacDonald's The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark, etc, (there are more but these will suffice for now).

And as Bart Ehrman a N.T. Scholar said "the Gospels were written by annoymous Greek speaking and writing Christians". (See Ehrman 2003 page 181)

[LothairOfLorraine]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus Sure I can prove you wrong. I do with each point you try to make. Justyn Martyr argued for Christ's birth in a manner which his persecutors would find tolerable, and perhaps show some compassion to the small group that was under seige. I admire his methods.

In the meantime, Muslims still worship a rock.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@LothairOfLorraine No. Like I said "This one is rather self-explanatory. Justin Martyr simply states that the virgin birth of Jesus, without sexual union, as well as his crucifixion, death, and resurrection were nothing different from the mythology surrounding Jupiter (In Greece, Zeus)." Also Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christians (Allah simply means God in Arabic, ask your fellow nut job Arab Christians).

[LothairOfLorraine]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus the Arabic word 'allah' meand God, no doubt, but no Arab Christian worships the 'allah' of your false prophet. You are confusing language with theology.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@LothairOfLorraine As for Greek influence, your missing the point. The point is WE DON'T KNOW WHO WROTE THE GOSPELS. THEY ARE MYTHS THEY ARE NOT BIOGRAPHIES. As for Paul, he was a deluded nutjob who had hallucinations-- sound like a person you want to follow? He also said women are the slaves for men in 1 Corinthians 11:7-9. Next time your Christian wife refuses to do anything for you, just quote Paul!

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@LothairOfLorraine BTW I am glad that you are admiring a church father being honest enough to admit pagan influences in your religion. Keep up the good work in bringing your religion to the ground! It's making my job a lot easier !

[LothairOfLorraine]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus Greek influence is nothing to be ashamed of. Making up stories about Abraham and Moses in order to rape a nine year old girl, named Aiesha, now that is something to be ashamed about! See, both of us can throw out worthless insults.

I admire good history and don't hide behind a big black pagan rock in Mecca. Sorry that you do.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@LothairOfLorraine Just like when your God came out of the Vagina of the 12-14 year old virgin Mary to furfill "Messiah" prophecies that weren't there?

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@LothairOfLorraine You are too funny! No you don't admire history, you admire myth. Thats what the New Testament Gospels are--- myths. Christianity is a Myth that even an early Christian apologist Justin Martyr admitted is nothing different from ancient paganism (See J.M First Apology Chapter 21 for him admitting that Christianity is no different from paganism).

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@LothairOfLorraine As for Inanna read Samuel Kramer's History Begins at Sumer, pp. 154ff.,Samuel Noah Kramer, "The First Tale of Resurrection," History Begins at Sumer: Thirty-Nine Firsts in Man's Recorded History, 3rd ed. (1981): pp. 154-67. For more on Inanna, Tammuz, Adonis, and Attis: G. Sfameni Gasparro, Soteriology and Mystic Aspects in the Cult of Cybele and Attis (1997); and Diane Wolkstein, Inanna, Queen of Heaven and Earth: Her Stories and Hymns from Sumer (1983)

[kufrtokufr]

Please take a look at this video we made about Acts17Apologetics

copy and past this into your browser to watch after .com:

------> /watch?v=0TwmC8Rd7ck

[nlicj09]

jjjjjj

[zabiha]

Umm fraun b goldstein (and three million others like her) of a tribe from the ghettos in Poland was a very respectable elderly woman. she was nt even opposed to Hitler's claim to Greater Fatherland.

she was still taken prisoner during a raid by the nazis on the polish border by hitlers nazi goons

commander helmut b. dieter ordered jocham b. straum to kill her. straum tied her hands and legs and poisoned gassed her to death until her body fell apart

history of european atheists

[zulfitareen]

umm qirfa ( fatima d. rabia b. badar ) of the tribe banu fazara from wadi al-qura

was a very respected elderly woman, but She was opposed to muhammad's claim of

prophethood.

she was taken prisoner during a raid on banu fazara by muhammads raiding party.

commander zayed b. harith ordered qays b. al-musahhar to kill her. Qays tied her leg and arm on each side to a camel and drove both camels in opposite direction, therby tearing her body apart.

“sirat rasul allah, by ibn ishaq

[smokeybirdman]

The crucifixion is the fundamental belief of christianity. In Genesis God promised that the messiah would 'crush the head of the serpent' (sin/death) and the serpent would 'bruise/strike His heel' (Calvary) thanks Yeshuah for being so brave and accepting the penalty for sin (death) so we can escape from Adam and be born again into life.

[eaglefan64]

yasirmatto (March 25, 2010)

I would Suggest Nabeel Quereshi to Challenge Zakir Naik.

Bad idea on ur part buddy. Nabeel Qureshi was once a faithful muslim. Grew up in a muslim home who was raise up by muslim parents and was taught to live according to the quran. In short Nabeel knows alittle to much about Islam and for this reason Zakir will never debate a muslim gone Christian becuz he knows Qureshi would expose the lies of Muhammad. Well Qureshi does it anyway SO BRING ON ZAKIR!!!

[yasirmatto]

I would Suggest Nabeel Quereshi to Challenge Zakir Naik..

[SheerGenius2]

"being closer to his life", is no guarantee for their veracity. Even if there were thousands of your so called "evidences", there were all the same made up references, which people came up with as they went along. The fact remains there has been so much fraud within the church history, that nothing whatsover can be taken at face value, including the current Bible itself. You have to accept that. It's not my problem you happened to believe in it as some kind of holy scriptures.

[TheBereanSearch]

@SheerGenius2

""being closer to his life", is no guarantee for their veracity."

Well, the concept know as "early testimony" is a part of the Historical Method, which historians use to determine what happened in the past. On that aspect, we can be more sure about the existence of Jesus than of Alexander the Great.

"nothing whatsover can be taken at face value"

Based on your standards and your method none of us can take the history textbooks in major universities and libraries at "face value"

[SheerGenius2]

Sorry I meant Celsus!

[SheerGenius2]

Alexander the great and others left so much evidence to prove their existence, such as archeology and so on.There is NOTHING left from Jesus in the same way.Also,the fact that the bible was written many years after his supposed death, and yet contains passages claiming to be his words, without explaining from where they got that,just shows how fraudulent the whole thing is. How can they claim Jesus said those things without ANY proof?Have you read the Lost Gospels?They show a different Jesus

[TheBereanSearch]

"Alexander the great and others left so much evidence to prove their existence"

There are more historical sources within 300 years of the events referring to the life of Jesus than to Alexander (that is a fact). The sources we do have are significantly closer to the life of Jesus, then the Alexander sources are to his life.

"such as archeology and so on"

What "archeology [sic] and so on" are you specifically appealing to?

I really don't think you are interested in being consistent.

[SheerGenius2]

The first speaker is such a moron. He kept repeating all the quotes which are confirmed forgery by all respectable scholars. He tries to repeat lies to support a fraud! The Bible is a fraud so it's INVALID. Most of the historians even doubt Jesus existed, let alone to die on the cross!

Watch: ( The Lost Gospels ) videos here on Youtube.

[TheBereanSearch]

@SheerGenius2

"Most of the historians even doubt Jesus existed"

No serious historical Jesus scholars doubt His existence. The real question I have for you is:

Q: What must you, being Muslim, say about a scholar's conclusion that Jesus never existed?

A: You must either say they are wrong, or reject your Quran.

[SheerGenius2]

I'm not a Muslim, but speaking in general. Most serious scholars doubt the "Jesus" of the Bible ever existed. There have been too many forgeries and fabrications throughout the church history which justify such thinking.

This video is very interesting about the topics discussed too:

watch?v=k6PWFvzKl3I

[TheBereanSearch]

@SheerGenius2

"I'm not a Muslim"

Sorry, that would be my mistaken assumption then. I suggest you go to 18:00 in the vid where Nabeel quotes numerous highly respected historical Jesus scholars.

Denying His existence is a hyperskeptical position that is not only untenable, but it leads to the conclusion that we can't know anything about the existence about anyone who lived in antiquity (this would include people such as Alexander the Great, many of the Caesars, etc)

[TheBereanSearch]

"Most serious scholars doubt the "Jesus" of the Bible ever existed."

That is not factually accurately. Simply repeating your assertion is NOT a form of proof. On the contrary, there no respected or reputable historical Jesus scholars that claim Jesus never existed, and Nabeel presented a portion of this testimony (even citing atheists and agnostics) on the historicity of Jesus' existence and crucifixion.

[SheerGenius2]

No, he just threw references left and right without proving the reliability of their accounts. We also know some of the works of those historians have been shown to contain forgeries. Josephus comes to mind. Celsius was talking about someone different not the same person described in the Bible. There were also other books which were used in the churches prior to the Nicean Council,but were taken out of the Bible because the clergy and politicians had an agenda, others were added.

[TheBereanSearch]

@SheerGenius2

"No, he just threw references left and right without proving the reliability of their accounts."

Now, you are not only distorting history, you are distorting what happened in the debate. Nabeel cited the names of and quoted some of the most highly respected historical Jesus scholars on the planet.

"Josephus comes to mind."

The majority of Jesephus scholars accept that the portion of the quote you are referring to that refers to the EXISTENCE of Jesus is factual.

[TheBereanSearch]

"Celsius was talking about someone different"

1) Who the heck is "Celsius"?

2) The portion of the Josephus quote that calls him the Christ and says "if it be right to call him a man" are generally accepted to be a latter addition. The reference to His life and crucifixion are held by the majority of Josephus scholars to be factual and historical accurate.

I'm sorry, but it's clear that you don't know this material, and you are attempting to appeal to conspiracy theories to deny facts.

[SheerGenius2]

You sound like Nabeel with a troll account! He/You didn't prove one iota, citing me a quote doesn't prove anything. You are playing on your mind. I said Josephus works contained forgeries, among which is the passage that refers to Jesus being a man, and you should go back to review your history reading.

[TheBereanSearch]

@SheerGenius2

"He/You didn't prove one iota, citing me a quote doesn't prove anything. You are playing on your mind."

No, I'm not Nabeel (however, I think you provided more evidence that you are predisposed to assuming conspiracies). It is also clear that you are not interested in being consistent in the standards you apply to historical figures, and you have not fully thought out the implications of your claims when applied to the rest of what we know about history.

[zulfitareen]

each party is trying to prove the other is delusional

well, they both are delusional.

religion is based on 4 pillars:

1-lies

2-superstition

3-dogma

4-rituals

please stop selling the vacuum cleaner in the name of religion.

[oombuddah]

Well, don't forget the pre-mark source, the gospel of Q source too that is against the actual resurrection.

Regardless, it shouldn't matter anyway if they thought Jesus had risen from the dead. It's easy to get to that conclusion if God grants them visions of Jesus as means of consoling them. It should matter because his death wasn't a part of God's message to mankind.

The only thing that made it this way was Paul - now we must really assess the trinity and atonement theory to refute themmore

[StopSpamming1]

No Jew will ever admit that a Jesus, the Messiah, died on the cross and was resurrected. Only the Bible says so.

The external sources are either fake, irrelevant or non-existent.

Hahaha, there is no evidence against it! Priceless stupidity.

There are scholars proving that Earth is flat. Moot point.

What the Muslim Abdallah is trying to prove, I don't understand.

[szuberi]

U should show genesis 38 to the kids in your family for a lesson in sex education (yes there is hardcore porn in the bible)...holy book what a joke

Tell them there is also incest. Tell them it's ok to eat pork and drink alcohol and have sex out of marriage (specially at Christ-mas parties) cuz the good old ten commandments died with Jesus

[LothairOfLorraine]

@szuberi The Quran and Haditha are heavily pornographic, so if sexual imagery makes a book fake, then the Quran and Haditha are gonners!

[szuberi]

you are a malicious person and you are bad at heart. you are simply defaming islam just cuz you disagree with it and/or jelous that islam is growing around the world.

please enlighten me with some verses of Quran as per your allegation that it is heavily pornographic? the hadees on the other hand are not divine scriptures so i wont comment...let's stick with the Quran. show me verses as i have shown you porno stories from the bible.

[szuberi]

ok so let us see some proof of what you say. Show me what is pornographic in the Quran (Hadith are man made references and have contradictions so lets stick with the Quran). Please put your money where your mouth is.

Do you know your Bible has 10 cases if hardcore incest? lol

[LothairOfLorraine]

@szuberi Islamic doctrine is inseperable from the Hadith and your brightest and best scholars would disagree with the 'Quran only' proposition your suppose we speak from.

[szuberi]

Anyone who has read the Quran with understanding knows that Hadith is only a supplementary source in Islam and it doesn't hold the same ststus as the Quran. Regardless of it's nature, your accusation that islaamic scriptures are heavily loaded with porn is a LIE. pls show me a single verse which has profanity or nonsense of any sort? I have read bible and Quran in great detail. So I challenge u to follow through on ur allegation.

[munsayac13]

Without HADITH there is no QURAN.

Without QURAN there is no ISLAM.

HADITH is PART OF QURAN.

You can say all GOOD THINGS in QURAN but in HADITH consist of all NEGATIVITY OF PEDOPHILE MOHAMMED.

Brother READ AND UNDERSTAND.

USE BRAIN FOR UNDERSTANDING.

[TheBereanSearch]

@szuberi

"Show me what is pornographic in the Quran"

I would say the full-breasted large eyed houri (virgins) and the boys like "scattered pearls" who "do not bleed" is both pornographic, sexually perverted, and disturbing.

You really think you will be deflowering virgins for all eternity? This is no heaven of a Holy and pure God my friend.

[szuberi]

Words are for human consumption and NO..i do not believe that there will be wide eyed virgins for sexual consumption in heaven. Those who believe otherwise need to study deeper with correct interpretation of the arabic language. If adulterly is by prohibited by Allah once, it will always be the case.

So whatever you posted (without reference) is not pornography in any shape or form. Try again dude.

[ShaffniAsSaylani]

I have an Idea why not attact the core principles of Islam, Muslims we will refute your trinity with ease but try refuting our Tawhid; simply you cant instead you cowards attack things which are out side. Why not the fundamentals and core teaching. And seriously it looks like your judge is the standards of today, when wrong was right years ago and right is wrong years ago. Oh Muslims how can you debate a people whose values and standards change every day?

[LothairOfLorraine]

@ShaffniAsSaylani: Actually, Trinity can be defended as Biblical monotheism, and 'Tawhid' can define Satanism just as easily as any other 'creator god' theory. Everything you attribute to the 'oneness of God' can apply to the 'oneness of Satan', so 'pure monotheism' isn't all that compelling.

[TheBereanSearch]

@LothairOfLorraine

"'Tawhid' can define Satanism just as easily as any other 'creator god' theory."

Good point! Every god in history that Muslims would absolutely have to identify as false, were unitarian entities. You have identified an aspect of the nature of Allah that is similar to all false gods, a characteristic which the true Biblical God does not have.

[szuberi]

only a bible thumper would compare a sacred scripture with some children story books LOL. Muslims don't really need to attack the bible..Christians do it themselves. in revelation it says god's curse be upon those who change this scripture but oh no, bible had to be updated cuz it's blind followers need to be fooled constantly.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

Interestingly None of the disciples wanted to do anything with Paul of Tarsus. Paul had epilepsy-- and he seems unaware of Jesus life and teachings. Ironically Pauline Christianity beat out the original disciples Christianity--- and thus today we have Pauline Christianity.

So The Quran warns us of believing in the fairy tale and myth of Christianity--in Quran 5:13-15.

[LothairOfLorraine]

Actually, it was Muhammad who had epilepsy and would go into seizures and fits. He would daydream, then attribute the whole experience to a divine visit.

St. Paul was at the Council of Jerusalem. He was an accepted man. You Muslims are just going to have to deal with that.

Fairytlales and myths? Really? Like Allah having his own she-camel jumping from a rock? Like Muhammad being taken into heaven on his 'night journey'? You hypocrites like to become devout atheists when looking at my Book.

[harunyahyadotorg]

so what did solomon do? youre the fool! fool!

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

No Prophet Muhammad did not have epilepsy-- if he did how did he perform miracles, how did he know scientific accuracies (recorded in the Quran, etc). Your Paul had epilepsy and hallucinations, which explains away his "visions"

and your Paul seems unaware of Jesus life and teachings. Of course the N.T. is filled with myths, legends etc. Jesus also obeyed Satan-- in Matthew 4:5-8--- so Jesus is a Satan follower.

[johnpolanco18]

We have all sin. in exodus it says that so sin will go unpunish. Somehow we will pay for our sins.... God would be corrupt if he forgave us all.. Its like a thief who constantly steals money, and the king just forgives him.. that king would be corrupt or unjust.. In christianity we have someone that has payed for our sins. The sins that have to be punish have been payed on the cross. All you have to do is repent (change your mind) about Jesus Christ..

[LothairOfLorraine]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus ...Paul had epilepsy? You mean Muhammad! Paul met with the Apostles and they credited him with teaching the Gospel.

I'll tell you what constitutes a fairytale. The idea that the angel Gabriel met with an insane poet in Mecca. That is a fairytale!

[niccareppindah201]

Actually I can tell you a better fairytale. God decided to come down on Earth through the birth canal of a 11- 12 year old female aka Mary. In addition, GOD not only has a father but relatives as well. Last time I checked God was the one and only, the absolute. I don't recall him ever having an extended family. Paul should of done a better job on being more creative then just stealing the stories mythrical characters whom we know as Osiris and Orus.

[szuberi]

lothairoflorraine...plz come up with some proof that quran is copied from the bible? this is such an old and weak argument.....when you have the concept of god as different b/w the two...nothing else much matters.

bible authors = 40

quran authors = 1

[LothairOfLorraine]

The Lord of the Rings also had only one author! So did the Merchant of Venice! Here's another one, The Old Man of the Sea by Ernest Hemmingway. Gimme a BREAK! The methods you Muhammadans try to build up just collapse in less time than it takes to change my shoes!

[LothairOfLorraine]

Instead of 'Ehteshaam', it should be 'Allahsasham'.

I think I'm funny.

[LothairOfLorraine]

Can we really expect in depth, original thinking from a follow of Muhammad? After all, most of Muhammad's Quran is a running battle of misquoted Bible verses against his own people, all of whom could identify a schizophrenic poet when they saw one. What was Muhammad's answer? It went something like, 'No I am not! Allah says I'm a prophet!'

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

Christianity is false.... The Gospels are written by annoymous Greek authors, the story of Inanna (1500 B.C.E.) is exactly like Jesus (they were both crucified and resurrected), there is no evidence for Christianity, etc, The Quran says the Bible is corrupt and badly edited by Jews and Christians Quran 2:75,79, 3:78, 3:187, 6:91, etc. Even the Bible says the Bible is corrupt in Jeremiah 8:8 Get over it.

[LothairOfLorraine]

Can you give me a source, from antiquity, that has Ishtar being 'crucified and resurrected'? Let's start with that, then we can move into a discussion of Biblical form/literary criticism and just what Jeremiah meant in 8:8. When we get to the that subject of preservation, we can discuss Muhammad's teachings that survived the compliation and editing of his poetry, and how Islamic dawaganda would be silly if you actually thought it through.

[LothairOfLorraine]

You are trying to connect the crucifixion of Jesus to Inanna/Ishtar, and using dishonest polemics. Just admit that you have no real regard for truth. It is one thing to use 'constructive imagination' to rebuild historical events that are sometimes unclear, but, like most Muhammadans/Atheists you ignore data or just make it up in the hopes of strengthening an indefensible hypothesis. In the future, use a little restaint or you'll continue to appear the idiot for all to see.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

Inanna was Crucified and resurrected. Also the Pagan God Osrisis was also crucified and resurrected. It doesn't take a genius to discover where the Christians got an idea of a crucified and resurrected deity from--- they most likely stole it from earlier pagan god myths.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

By the way the Quran says the Bible (both the Old and New Testament) are corrupt multiple times: Quran 2:75,79, 5:13-15, 6:91, etc.

Also this story of a verse of the Quran being eaten by a Goat is false, the Quran is perfectly perserved-- any Islamic scholar will tell you this.

What about the New Testament? Again we don't know who wrote the Gospels, the Gospels are modelled after fictional accounts, They were written in Greek (while Jesus spoke Aramaic), etc. Plus the story of a dying

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

and rising God is not unique-- the Sumerians used to worship Inanna (1500 BCE) who was crucified and resurrected. That alone proves that Christainity is false-- the fact that its story is not unique.

In any case I would rather be an atheist than Christian. Christianity is false, there is no evidence for it.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

So the Gospels are modelled after fictional accounts. The Gospels are filled with historical errors, myths, legends and stories with no basis in history. The Gospels are not biographies. They are fictional accounts. So Christianity is a false religion. Sorry.

[LothairOfLorraine]

Don't forget that Allah's she-camel jumped out of rock [Q. 7:73-78]. Keep mind that the rock is never mentioned in the Quran and yet the Quran pre-supposes that its audience was aware of the fairy-tale of the camel [Q. 88:17]. So, the Quran WAS merely 'tales of the ancients' [Q. 68:15, 83:13] retold by a false prophet.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@LothairOfLorraine Just like the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus was a fairy tale and a re telling of other pagan gods who were also killed and resurrected? Even a church father named Justin Marytr admitted to pagan influences in Christianity--- much to your embasrrsment.

[LothairOfLorraine]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus What evidence do you have of any pagan god who was crucified, then resurrected?

Justyn did discuss Greek influence on Christianity in his apologies. So? At about the same time Justyn was writing, Irenaeus was pointing out that Arabs worshipped rocks. Nothing uch has changed in Arabia.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@LothairOfLorraine

More interestingly an early Church father, Justin Martyr admitted to Christianity being nothing different from paganism:

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 21

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@LothairOfLorraine This one is rather self-explanatory. Justin Martyr simply states that the virgin birth of Jesus, without sexual union, as well as his crucifixion, death, and resurrection were nothing different from the mythology surrounding Jupiter (In Greece, Zeus).

[ernestbungle26]

I believe that both christianity AND islam are rligons of propaganda, its well known that truly smart enlightened people DO NOT follow either.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

No such thing--- these are myths about the Qurans compliation. The Gospels however are fictional accounts-- anyone who does 2 minutes of research on this knows this. The gospels are filled with myths and legends--- they are not historical annals or "biographies"

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

Read Charles Talbert: What is a Gospel or The Homer Epics and the Gospel of Mark-- these show that the gospels are modeled after fictional forms. Again-- we don't know who wrote any of the Gospels-- these gospels were written by unknown Greek writers-- plus the gospel writers were not interested in history--- they were writing religious propaganda. All scholars agree with me on this.

[LothairOfLorraine]

Anyone who has read Ignatious, Ireanaeus, Papas, Polycarp, Tertullian, Cyprian, Clement, etc., knows that the witness to the NT is FAR AND AWAY superior to the Quran or Haditha.

Who was writing religious propaganda? You mean Bukhari, Muslim, Dawud and company, right?

You want REAL history? Read the Book of Acts! You want to read poetry modeled after fictional forms? Read the Quran!

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

These Church fathers accounts are almost worthless. The editing and formation of the Bible came from members of the early Christian Church. Since the fathers of the Church possessed the texts and determined what would appear in the Bible, here occurred plenty of opportunity and motive to change, modify, or create texts that might bolster the position of the Church or the members of the Church themselves.

Take, for example, Eusebius who served as an ecclesiastical church historian and bishop.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

He had great influence in the early Church and he openly advocated the use of fraud and deception in furthering the interests of the Church. The first mention of Jesus by Josephus came from Eusebius (none of the earlier church fathers mention Josephus' Jesus). It comes to no surprise why many scholars think that Eusebius interpolated his writings.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

In attempting to salvage the Bible the respected revisionist and scholar, Bruce Metzger has written extensively on the problems of the New Testament. In his book, "The Text of the New Testament-- Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration, Metzger addresses: Errors arising from faulty eyesight; Errors arising from faulty hearing; Errors of the mind; Errors of judgement; Clearing up historical and geographical difficulties; and Alterations made because of doctrinal considerations.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

The traditional Church has portrayed the authors as the apostles Mark, Luke, Matthew, & John, but scholars know from critical textural research that there simply occurs no evidence that the gospel authors could have served as the apostles described in the Gospel stories. As an experiment, imagine the Gospels without their titles. See if you can find out from the texts who wrote them; try to find their names.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

The Gospels describe narrative stories, written almost virtually in the third person. People who wish to portray themselves as eyewitnesses will write in the first person, not in the third person. Clearly, the Gospels employ techniques that fictional writers use. In any case the Gospels can only serve, at best, as hearsay, and at worst, as fictional, mythological, or falsified stories.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

Therefore I Believe Christianity is false for many reasons. 1--The Gospels were not written by eye witnesses. 2--The Pagan God Innanna was also crucified and resurrected-- the Sumerians used to worship a crucified and resurrected deity 1500 years before Jesus. 3-- There's no evidence for the Church father's testomonies for the gospels. 4-- there occurs not a single instance in all of Paul's writings that he ever meets or sees Jesus, nor does he give any reference to Jesus' life on earth.

[LothairOfLorraine]

You are cutting and pasting from other sites, so I am not going to bother to respond.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

Thats because you can't respond. The New Testament is a book filled with impossiblities, Myths and fairy tales with no basis in history.

[LothairOfLorraine]

You are cutting and pasting from other sites, so I am not going to bother to respond.

[MirroringTruth]

My guess you only did 2 minutes of research. I've heard you debate live. You couldn't string a sentence together if you need to tell the person next to you your prayer rug was on fire.

And we're supposed to take your word over those much more versed in Islam then you'll ever be? Get a grip.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@MirroringTruth LMAO--- Well did you do research? OR are you too busy getting high off you imaginary holy spirit to do your research? As I said in both debates, we don't know who wrote the Gospels of the new Testament. THEY ARE FICTION THEY ARE NOT HISTORY. dude--- read a book on this subject. Seriously.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@MirroringTruth As I said several times, WE DON'T KNOW WHO WROTE THE GOSPELS. WE DON'T KNOW WHEN THEY WROTE THEM OR WHERE THEY WROTE THEM OR EVEN IF THEIR SOURCES ARE RELIABLE OR NOT. Moreover there was no "phyiscal" resurrection of Jesus. Rather the disciples had visions which convienced them that Jesus was resurrected in a spiritual body-- and that spiritual resurrection evolved into a physical resurrection as time went on. I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO PROVE ME WRONG IN REGARDS TO THIS. They can't.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@MirroringTruth But to make things worse, these people I have debated, CANNOT DISPROVE THE SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION OF JESUS. As I said in both debates (which you obviously were not listening to--- perhaps you were drooling over these nutty apologists?) Jesus resurrection was a spiritual resurrection. and by Spiritual resurrection I mean Jesus was given a new spiritual body which later evolved into a phyiscal resurrection.

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

@MirroringTruth I DARE YOU to prove me wrong in regards to the spiritual resurrection of Jesus. You won't be able to.

[LothairOfLorraine]

@EhteshaamTheProudMus So, the virgin birth of Jesus, as preserved in the Islaic literature, is also pagan?

[Islam666AntiChrist]

What can u say..

Other than Osama is toast

May God bless u Nabeel and may he guide Osama

[muslim9x9x]

they claim "Why should we accept the Quran which came 600 years later?" We ask the same question, why do you accept the Bible that was written over 1,500 years by anonymous writers and long after their deaths? The Gospels alone were written 70-100 years after Jesus' departure, so they cannot be trusted. There is no chain of transmission (Isnad) which Muslims have but Christians don't have.!

[EhteshaamTheProudMus]

muslim9x9x-- please stop saying stuff. You got me in a lot of trouble for your stupid remark said against Mary Jo Sharp. You also made me violate my rule-- be kind and respectful. Please refrain from saying stupid stuff.

[muslim9x9x]

How did I get you in trouble when I don't even know you? let alone "Mary jo sharp"

if they dressed appropriately I wouldn't have made that comment, you know it's true.

[muslim9x9x]

I meant long after the PROPHETS' deaths, for example the Book of Samuel wasn't written by Samuel. IT was written MANY decades after his death by unknown writers! How do you explain that? Where is the evidence that the Holy Spirit guided the Church fathers in choosing the NT books? What is special about the number 27?

[cnlnat]

nabeel presented its case in a very professional and inteligent way...

there is not reason for me to believe Mohamed who lived 600 years later, rather than all the apostles, paul, the roman historians, and God himself in Isaiah 53...

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and he rose from the death

[Glorthac]

Lol, I've never seen a debator admitting he used wikipedia before.

The problem with Mr. Abdallah's Old Testament passages is: when are these prophecies to be fulfilled?

The Christian answer is these prophecies are of the second coming, when Jesus will watch the destruction of the wicked while being protected by the Father.

[UalhashimiU]

nabeel knows these verses are corrupted and he use them...

Abdallah def. nabeel many times