Wilson Kipketer 1:41,83 800m - Rieti 01/09/1996

[newromantic888]

simply the the greastest 800m runner ever. SMOOVE AND Deano.Goodluck findind some parity.

[smooveXXX]

So lets sum this up, Kipketer has a better championship record, has a better winning percentage at his prime (because you talk about Coe and glandular fever - how about Kipketer and MALARIA!) ran head to head quicker (WR vs WR) and ran head to head quicker over a sample of races (10) and you still are trying to tell us Coe was a better 8 guy?!?!?! Ahahahahahaha! Coe is the best 800/1500/mile guy ever and may be the best all round MD guy - but he is not a better 800m runner than Kipketer - sorry!

[deano27671]

@smooveXXX As outlined below, most of your summary is inaccurate at best. Coe had a higher percentage of wins in his career (and in his peak years), a greater longevity, more ranking points, a greater superiority over his peers and a better record at the Olympics and European Champs; the only ones which both had equal access to. The World Champs (indoors and out) did not exist in his peak years for Coe as they did for Kipketer.

[deano27671]

Coe's 1:41.7 would have been 1:41.5 had he not had to run wide on the bend to pass the pacemaker. It was on an old track. 16 years later & after many carefully orchestrated attempts, with pacing and drafting up to 550m (150m more than Coe) Kip runs just 0.4 faster on a modern mondo track. Kip was certainly one of the top of all time & there is a valid argument for all 3, but to dismiss Coe out of hand, backed up by INCORRECT facts & statements from you is not going to convince.

[smooveXXX]

Not only that, but at his peak Kipketer was essentially unbeatable - as dominant as Rudisha - but was so for 5 seasons (1995-1999) where he lost only two races (both in 1998 so UNBEATEN in 95,96,97,99) - whereas the same can hardly be said for Coe whose ONLY major win over 800m was the 1986 European Championships. So Kipketer won more, ran faster, was more dominant in his era over this particular distance so perhaps you can explain to us all how you have Coe being better over 800m than Kipketer?

[deano27671]

@smooveXXX For a start, Kipketer was unbeaten in 96 & 97 only. He was beaten twice in 95 (3rd Berlin, 2nd Monaco) twice in 98 (2nd Zurich, 8th Europeans) & beaten in the 99 indoor World Champs. So he lost 5 times in 5 seasons. From the end of 77 to the Euros in 82 (when suffering with mono) Coe lost just 3 races at 800m. That's a better record than Kip's. Coe was over 1.5 secs faster than anyone in 79 & 2.3 faster than anyone in 81. Kip never had that big a margin over his peers in any season.

[deano27671]

Coe also had 2 seasons unbeaten, 79 & 81. He was also beaten only once at 800m in 78, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86 & 89. Let's compare that to Kipketer's record in other seasons outside his 95 - 99 peak: - 2000- lost 3, 2002- lost 5 (4 indoors), 2003- lost 7, 2004-lost 5. When you say Kipketer was essentially unbeatable, you are looking back with rather thick rose tinted spectacles.

[smooveXXX]

@deano27671 Hahah, you are a clown - you cant even get your facts right. I am looking at Kipketers record on Tilastopaja right now (do you have access to this? I doubt it) and he most certainly didn't lose in Monaco this year - he ran the worlds leading time for this year! He didn't even run in Berlin 1995 - it doesn't even look like they had an 800m at that meet in 1995 because there is no record of it!

[deano27671]

@smooveXXX Idiot. It says in his Wiki profile that he won 10 out 0f 12 races in 95. His IAAF profile lists his 1:45.28 loss in Monaco that year (to B. Koech). The greatdistancerunners website has his complete list of races, and shows he was 3rd in Berlin in 1:45.17, to Atle Douglas & Mahjoub Haida. You can see their times listed on the Benvenuti yearly list for 95. You should get your facts right. There was an 800 in Berlin on 1.9.95 & in Monaco, 9.9.95, and he lost both!

[smooveXXX]

@deano27671 And as for Coe losing only once in 78,82, 83 etc - you know how many FINALS (either one day big meets - not British league meets or heats of championships_ Coe ran in that period? TWENTY FIVE! In some of those years he was "unbeaten" he ran only one or two 800m races because of his 1500m/mile excellence! From 95-99 Kipketer was beaten twice OUTDOORS in FORTY ONE races! Coe 25 finals in 12 years with more losses than Kipketer from 41 in 5 years! Hahah, this is getting fun its so easy!

[deano27671]

@smooveXXX You clearly have no understanding of UK or European athletics in the late 70s/early 80's. There was NO Grand Prix system or financial winnings until 85 & even then it took several more years for it to evolve into the scene Kip ran in. UK athletes, Coe incl, had to run a set amount of domestic & "international matches" (against other Nations) in the course of a season to get permission to run in the relatively few international "invitation" meets where they could run for themselves.

[deano27671]

Andy Norman controlled where all UK athletes ran. Coe had to run the Europa Cup semis and finals, as well as other matches in order to get permission to run the Golden Mile in Brussels. You should try reading books on the era which will make it quite clear that the scene then was completely different to Kip's time, when he was a free agent to run where & when he wished. Try Pat Butcher's book for starters.

[deano27671]

In the 5 seasons from begin of 78 to end of 82, Coe won (not including heats) 36 out of 40 races at 800m. In the 5 seasons from 95-99 Kip won 47 out of 52. One loss was the World indoor Champs in 99. You never stipulated outdoors only in your earlier claims and are only now implying that indoors don' count. If you then look at the period 83 - 89, Coe won 24 out of 32 800s (not including heats). From 2000 to 2004, Kip won 13 out of 33.

[smooveXXX]

Each to their own but what evidence is there for Coe being a better 800m guy than Kipketer? Coe will go down as a greater runner overall (for his range and two Olympic 1500m golds) but over 800m it's not really a contest is it? At Olympic level the best both could manage were silver medals but Kipketer is a 3 time World Champ and the avg of his ten best ever runs is UNDER 1.42 (1.41.99) compared to Coe who ran under 1.42 once and has a ten best avg of 1.43.37.

[deano27671]

He was in top 7 fastest every year from 77-89 (except 87-injured all year) & had the most ranking points of any athlete over 800m ever on the T&FN system. Kipketer was only in the top 7 from 94-04 (except 01). The fact Kipketer was 3 times World Champ is a moot point as they didn't have bi-annual Worlds in Coe's day (same for Snell) and he never competed in any. Had there been any in 79, 81, etc, then it's likely he'd have won a few.

[deano27671]

The World Cup was a precursor to the World Champs and Coe won that. As for the 10 best average performances, that just reflects they competed in different eras. In Coe's days the win was most important and the main reason Kip ran so many fast times is that he was chasing Coe's WR at every opportunity for most of his 2 unbeaten seasons. I would think Peter Elliott has a better top 10 average than P. Snell, but that doesn't make him a better 2 lap runner!

[deano27671]

You can only compare 2 athletes from different eras using criteria that was consistent in both. So, Coe has a better record at the Olympics, the Europeans and lost fewer races in his 5 season peak era. In terms of longevity, Coe is superior, 12 yrs in top 7 compared to Kip's 10. They each broke the WR twice, but whereas Kip improved it by 0.62 (despite many more attempts on faster tracks), Coe moved it on by 1.71. Kip was WR holder for 13 years, Coe for 18 years.

[deano27671]

So Coe also had a bigger impact on the event. Throw in a couple of 1k WR's from Coe; the nearest event to the 800m; times which Kipketer came nowhere near, and he has a very good case to being the greatest ever 2 lap runner.

[smooveXXX]

@deano27671 And you want to talk about indoors? Im sorry, Kipketer broke the World record twice within 3 days in 97 and as far as I know (correct me if I am wrong) is STILL the only man to break 1.44 indoors - Coe ran under 1.45 once indoors in his entire life!

[deano27671]

@smooveXXX Again you show your lack of knowledge. You stated 800m races. If you don't want to include indoor ones, then fine, but then don't go on about Kip's exploits indoors. It kind of contradicts your point. There wasn't an indoor scene in the 70's / early 80s. There wasn't a World Indoor Champs, and the only track in the UK was an old wooden one used by the RAF. They didn't have invitational meets for all comers back then.

[deano27671]

Coe ran 2 indoor 800s from 78, both at Cosford and both World records. They were nothing more than winter tune ups to see how the training was going; glorified jogs. Kip had whole indoor seasons with prize money, culminating in World Champs and medals. Again, the two cannot be compared. How many races/records did Snell win/break? It's called evolution.

[smooveXXX]

Kipketer > Coe over 800m. We are not even going to have this argument.

[deano27671]

@smooveXXX disagree. But I can see why you think that. Certainly they are both in the top 3 along with Snell.

[mrlogic4u]

Ahhh the doping years...

Kipcheater!

[newromantic888]

@mrlogic4u I will ignore this comment

[Bajinjo]

@mrlogic4u Ahh the ignorants that never watched athletics before 2000

[Sdelosinfiernos]

OMG....! He is Fliying...!

[newromantic888]

wilson waited too long to accelerate. He should have gone to the front much earlier. Its not a kick to break world records...thats to win races. Wilson should have been up by back straight. Still he learned and the rest is history.

[genderpretender]

ye ur rite. that was wierd. im guessing that was a golden league race - he shud have been rite behind the pacemaker from the very start - ironically the people who did go with the pace shudnt have done - it was reminiscent of kaki's win last year - u can win races like that but its very hard 2 beat a wr wen u stay behind other runners until the last 200.

[deano27671]

I disagree with both of you I'm afraid. He made his chances of breaking the WR much better by being in 4th at the bell, as the pacemaker was too quick at 49.05; Kip's time was 49.8, just up on Coe's split and sub 1:40 pace. He then had the benefit of pace up to 600m (a luxury not afforded to Coe), where he was bang on the same split as Coe (1:15.0) Kip didn't kick at this point, they ALL slowed down, he just slowed down the least rapidly. No one kicks off that sort of pace. Great run!!

[newromantic888]

@deano27671 49.05 is decent Deano. I mean what did Wilson set 1.411 off. 49.00. Its obviously the optimal pace. Must have been a very slow third 200m. Like I said Wilson should have sensed that and gone to the front much earlier. We learn from our mistakes.lol.

[deano27671]

@newromantic888 - Yes, but he didn't actually go through in 49.05. He was 4th at the bell in about 49.7 (exactly same as Coe). He then had drafting from the pacemakers for about another 150m, which would have helped him a bit (it's meant to be worth about 0.5 per 200m!). I think had he gone earlier he probably would have slowed a bit earlier. In his 1:41.11 he went through the bell 2nd in about 49.2, and had help for another 150m. I think 49.0 - 49.4 was about optimum for him.

[deano27671]

I disagree with both of you I'm afraid. He made his chances of breaking the WR much better by being in 4th at the bell, as the pacemaker was too quick at 49.05; Kip's time was 49.8, just up on Coe's split and sub 1:40 pace. He then had the benefit of pace up to 600m (a luxury not afforded to Coe), where he was bang on the same split as Coe (1:15.0) Kip didn't kick at this point, they ALL slowed down, he just slowed down the least rapidly. No one kicks off that sort of pace. Great run!!

[genderpretender]

those facts do sway mi opinion a bit. i dunno . mabye he just wasnt there yet.

but 49.8 wasnt up on coes run - coe was 49.64. kip was 49.63 wen he equalled it, 48.10 wen he broke it. i dunno wat it was in cologne. the pacemaker was 49.0 si i guess kip was around 49.3. i guess low 49s was kips ideal pace for the first lap.

but 49.8 isnt really sub 1:40 pace. i mean yes - it is mathematically - but if n e one ever ran sub 1:40 they'd have 2 go thro 400 in around 48 or mabye less. i think.

[deano27671]

Coe went through 400m in 49.9 in Florence (behind Konchellah's 49.7 ~ I think Coleman even says it on the video). It's strange, because some reference books quote 49.7 (perhaps Konchellah's split was 49.64 rounded to 49.7) but that was the pacemaker's split. All the books I have from the time quoted 49.9, but whatever, Kip's split here was certainly not slower than Coe's. When Kip first broke the record in Zurich, 48.1 was the pacemaker's split. Kip's was more like 48.4 ~ still v. fast!!

[bobbyfearfactor]

do you have the race where kipketer actually TIED the world record?

[newromantic888]

Thats my favourite. It used to be on Youtube but was removed by the user. I am looking relentlessly for it.