Down in the green hay Where monkey and bear usually lay They woke from a stable-boy's cry He said; someone come quick! The horses got loose, got grass-sick! They'll founder! Fain, they'll die What is now known by the sorrel and the roan? By the chestnut, and the bay, and the gelding grey? It is: stay by the gate you are given And remain in your place, for your season And had the overfed dead but listened To that high-fence, horse-sense, wisdom...
Actually we bought a pony that had extremely bad looked after feet and YES the farriers they had been using hadnt cut them correct and yes she got laminitis from incorrect cut hooves ! Get rid of the heels and toes or yes the coffin bone tilts and youve got a major problem ! It is the most horendous thing to go through let me asure you 1
@hoofrise chill the fuck out. also founder is more dominantly caused by too much rich grass eaten by a horse that already has feet problems. that is not the case for every horse, but for most horses. that doesn't mean every horse that eats rich grass will founder, just certain horses. i think you should just let people say things. if they are completely off then politely correct them. no need to go shoving your bitchy nose into everyones opinions and thoughts
@hoofrise pahaha alright. well if u think i care about what you say i dont. your just some nosey anonymous brat. just leave peoples opinions alone okay?
hoofrise you are acting like a little 10 year old that doesn't know anything. I bet 90% of people would think you were. Please stop being such a now it all. Cowgirl54566 needs to recheck her info, but for now just leave everyone alone!
hoofrise you really need to back off this video shouldn't concern you this much. You have said mean things through out the reviews! Get a life and everybody is aginst you, cowgirl54566 need to get some of her facts straight and we all agree! Leave everyone alone!
@SeekingSqueak These things you repeated from an outdated book are called "triggers". They are only harmful to the horse because of the widespread weakening of laminary connections from incorrect hoof form. Conventional hoof care leads to incorrect hoof form which leads to destruction of the coffin bone and the laminary connection. Hence leaving the laminary connection susceptible to inflamatory "triggers".
@SeekingSqueak A horse with healthy laminary connections is much safer from these "triggers". None of the treatments for these "triggers" will give the hoof a healthy laminary connection either. Only correct hoof form will. Correct hoof form can only be achieved with at least a 4 1/2 week trim cycle. And the trimmer has to know how to achieve correct hoof form. Does yours?
Hoofrise is just going through all the comments in the last year and insulting people.
HoofRise - Have a close look at the photos. They show different things from a "google search". Also - can you clarify what you call Founder? Perhaps this means a different thing over in Zimbabwe as my side of the world. P.S - no need to be so aggressive.
@SeekingSqueak Founder is any hoof that is not in correct form. I see the photos and it does not matter where they came from. This is true all over the world. Ignorance deserves aggression. Maybe your side of the world has a different meaning for the word 'as'.
Ignorance deserves aggression - is that how you suppose to deal with your starving children in Africa? You know, the ones that @mrskipnattitude is responsible for by having a horse with 60, 000 (of an unstated currency) invested in her.
Ignorance thrives in poverty. In Africa poverty is a by-product of a blameless ignorance.
When people develop in such inequitable situations, with poor educational opportunities and limited access to knowledge and power, they are ignorant of the world we live in, ignorant of the means to gain and prosper in our worlds of silent privilege.
Ignorance does not deserve aggression. Aggression is self defeating to your goals against the ignorant - unless you wish to dis-empower them further.
To understand founder you must understand what the laminae are. As weight is transferred down the leg to the foot it does not get transferred directly down through the bottom of the sole. The foot (coffin) bone is suspended from the hoof wall by the laminae. The result is, weight transfers to the walls of the hoof, then down the walls to the ground. This puts weight bearing on the toughest structure, the wall,
@hoofrise There are two recognizable forms of founder. In the acute form the disease comes on suddenly and the severity can vary depending on the size of the insult to the laminae. Some lameness experts believe that in the acute form, most of the damage is done in the initial few hours of the disease.
The chronic form of founder affects ponies and overweight horses on rapidly growing pasture or too much concentrate.
@hoofrise Ok then we are talking about two different things. You are talking about lameness perhaps? Please do some googling, scholar or similar to see what I mean. Its possible that in Zimbabwe you use the term differently from the rest of the world.
@hoofrise No......... founder is an old expression used when a ship sinks. Founder in a horse also known as a "sinker" is when P3 rotates out the bottom of the hoof capsule. What do you mean by correct form? What is an out of form hoof to you?
well I see what you mean. Most of the time a founder is because of an overweight horse, thus the owner's fault. But sometimes they can get a founder from ridding on to soft of ground or standing in there soft dirt for to long. Also they can get them from bad farrier work. Sorry if I afended anyone.
@crazyapples1 Founder is almost always caused by incorrect hoof form. Extra weight and riding will not negatively affect a healthy, correctly trimmed, barefoot hoof.
@hoofrise that is the most ignorant statement I’ve ever heard about Lamitis... Laminitis/Founder is not caused by incorrect hoof form... it is caused by a failure of the lamina/white line... causing a downward rotation of the coffin bone... what causes the failure is almost always something that causes massive swelling in the lamina like a histamine reaction... or constant pounding on hard ground... and that will NEVER truly heal... sometimes the animal can be made sound. But not every time.
@NMFarrier Oh yes it is my moron friend. Incorrect hoof form causes mechanical weakening of the laminary connection. Hence leaving it susceptible to "triggers". The triggers are 99% likely to not have any effect on a hoof with a healthy laminary connection.
@hoofrise stay away from horses with laminitis... you have proven your ignorance... you are thinking about horses that have stretched out the lamina at the end... Laminitis occurs not at the bottom of the hoof but inside. What you believe to be founder is nothing more than a neglected hoof... God help your horse if it ever founders.
@hoofrise you know nothing about me... accusing me of incorrect trimming shows more ignorance on your part... almost all my customers are barefoot. You are such an idiot! I treat laminitis if not every day every week... you don’t reverse anything a foundered horse is ALWASE foundered... by your own statements I know you have no clue about what you are doing... you have never dealt with real founder.
@NMFarrier Same thing with hard ground. A horse with healthy laminary connections, because of correct hoof form and a 3 week trim cycle by a competent trimmer along with physical training for the animal, is 99% less likely to road founder.
@hoofrise It's misleading! The video suggests that merely having hooves trimmed will be a solution to founder. "A simple visit from the farrier"? Wish was so simple, but it is not!!
The pretty picture of horses at 0:21 alone shows failure to mention that some can founder from too much grass. It's not just about hoof trimming.
Mine are natural barefoot trimmed at least every 6 weeks by certified hoof trimmer, but still one got some laminitis last spring. Learned a lot from that episode.
Not caused by not trimming. Its usually because someone let their fat pony eat too much or left the grain bucket open with in reach of sugar poo the fat pony.
DO some research please. YOur chowing pics of overgrown hooves - this is not founder. I get that you want horse owners to look after their horses but you must be careful about putting true and accurate info out there.
@SeekingSqueak That is what founder is. Learn some grammar or at least how to use 'spellcheck' on your computer. It is not too much harder than signing into Youtube. Also, practice what you preach. If you knew what a properly shaped hoof looked like, you would know that anything other than that, is FOUNDER!
Not ture. I just lost a mare due to founder. She came up one day with a fever of 105 for unknown causes.(snakebite mabey?) As hard as we tried, we couldnt get the fever under control. Finally, the fever went down. Then, she foundered from the fever. We spend a lot of time and money but it proved too much for her in the end. This was a mare with over 60,000 invested her/ She was very loved and taken care of. Do your research
@mrskipnattitude The improper hoof form will cause all of that. If you did your research your mare would still be alive, maybe, and a bunch of kids wouldn't be starving because you are stupid!
Proof that a bunch of money can't help you if you don't see all of truths behind proper barefoot trimming.
I am quite sure you have never seen proper barefoot trimming.
@mrskipnattitude Conventional hoof care(shoeing, incorrect trims, stall keeping, farrier trims, pasture trims, etc...) causes founder just as much as these neglected hooves cause founder. So the money you spent was pointless. You could have just found someone that knew how to trim properly, they might have reversed it.
foundering is not always due to neglect! at times it is due to a horse eating too much rich grass. foundering is not due to long feet atall. its when the laminae detaches from the hoof wall causing it to pull the tendon, which makes the horse want to take pressure off his feet by leaning back on his heels. long feet is neglect because serious abscesses can get trapped if it is not regularly trimmed, but long feet never cause foundering.
@horseluvor4 Everything you said is caused by long feet. Rich grass only affects stretched and weak lamina caused by long feet. WTF? The lever forces of the long feet usually cause the separation.
Ummm. Founder is not caused by not trimming your horses hooves. It's from by the coffin bone separating and angling down. The hoof wall is no longer attached to the coffin bone so it flares out. Horses get it from too much rich grass, grain or stressful events. Not lack of farrier.
@hoofrise Please explain how i am wrong. I have taken barefoot clinics and have many books on barefoot hoof trimming. I know what I am talking about. You can have a horse that has a perfect barefoot trim and feed it a pile of grain and it can still founder. A retained placenta can also cause founder. Too much grass can cause founder. There are many things, but I highly doubt a bad trim are one of them.
@hoofrise So you mean to say that a horse has to have chronic laminitis initially before it can suffer the acute stage from the grass. How on earth do you think it got the laminitis in the first place if its a paddock pony and self trims.
If you break laminitis down you get lamin"itis".
Itis meaning inflammation so its just inflammation of the lamina. Its a huge subject to say that bad trimming is the major factor.
Great Video, good job bringing the problem to attention. Yes it's deplorable how people neglect horses feet. I just went through a case of laminitis with a friend, and the mare also had cushings and had to be put down. I documented it, and will be dissecting the hooves, to show the damage. I posted the first one called "The tragedy of Laminitis" is you want to see it.
CoyKiyote 1 year ago
@CoyKiyote Re: the founder poem
evidence of brainwashing
fact-stall keeping kills
message-panic when your horse gets out of a stall
fact-rich grass only founders incorrectly shaped hooves
message-food founders hooves, pay no attention to their feet
hoofrise 1 year ago
Actually we bought a pony that had extremely bad looked after feet and YES the farriers they had been using hadnt cut them correct and yes she got laminitis from incorrect cut hooves ! Get rid of the heels and toes or yes the coffin bone tilts and youve got a major problem ! It is the most horendous thing to go through let me asure you 1
vanaton 1 year ago
@hoofrise chill the fuck out. also founder is more dominantly caused by too much rich grass eaten by a horse that already has feet problems. that is not the case for every horse, but for most horses. that doesn't mean every horse that eats rich grass will founder, just certain horses. i think you should just let people say things. if they are completely off then politely correct them. no need to go shoving your bitchy nose into everyones opinions and thoughts
horseluvor4 1 year ago
@horseluvor4 You obviously know nothing about founder.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@hoofrise pahaha alright. well if u think i care about what you say i dont. your just some nosey anonymous brat. just leave peoples opinions alone okay?
horseluvor4 1 year ago
hoofrise you are acting like a little 10 year old that doesn't know anything. I bet 90% of people would think you were. Please stop being such a now it all. Cowgirl54566 needs to recheck her info, but for now just leave everyone alone!
crazyapples1 1 year ago
hoofrise you really need to back off this video shouldn't concern you this much. You have said mean things through out the reviews! Get a life and everybody is aginst you, cowgirl54566 need to get some of her facts straight and we all agree! Leave everyone alone!
crazyapples1 1 year ago
@crazyapples1 Now who's being aggressive?
hoofrise 1 year ago
Below are some causes
We know some of the causes of founder, but some cases are hard to explain. Listed below are some of the common causes of acute founder:
SeekingSqueak 1 year ago
@SeekingSqueak The reason they are unexplained is because conventional science is false.
hoofrise 1 year ago
Causes of Founder -
# Horse getting into the feed bin and eating too much grain
# Gram negative bacterial infections with endotoxemia
# Excessive concussion to the feet
# Obesity
# Standing on black walnut shavings
# A hot horse drinking too much cold water too fast
SeekingSqueak 1 year ago
@SeekingSqueak This will not occur with correctly shaped hooves.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@SeekingSqueak These things you repeated from an outdated book are called "triggers". They are only harmful to the horse because of the widespread weakening of laminary connections from incorrect hoof form. Conventional hoof care leads to incorrect hoof form which leads to destruction of the coffin bone and the laminary connection. Hence leaving the laminary connection susceptible to inflamatory "triggers".
hoofrise 1 year ago
@SeekingSqueak A horse with healthy laminary connections is much safer from these "triggers". None of the treatments for these "triggers" will give the hoof a healthy laminary connection either. Only correct hoof form will. Correct hoof form can only be achieved with at least a 4 1/2 week trim cycle. And the trimmer has to know how to achieve correct hoof form. Does yours?
hoofrise 1 year ago
Trimmed, not shod. And trimmed correctly.
hoofrise 1 year ago
Hoofrise is just going through all the comments in the last year and insulting people.
HoofRise - Have a close look at the photos. They show different things from a "google search". Also - can you clarify what you call Founder? Perhaps this means a different thing over in Zimbabwe as my side of the world. P.S - no need to be so aggressive.
SeekingSqueak 1 year ago
@SeekingSqueak Founder is any hoof that is not in correct form. I see the photos and it does not matter where they came from. This is true all over the world. Ignorance deserves aggression. Maybe your side of the world has a different meaning for the word 'as'.
hoofrise 1 year ago
Ignorance deserves aggression - is that how you suppose to deal with your starving children in Africa? You know, the ones that @mrskipnattitude is responsible for by having a horse with 60, 000 (of an unstated currency) invested in her.
SeekingSqueak 1 year ago
@SeekingSqueak Jeez, I did not say violence, just a little constructive aggression. Starving kids are not ignorant.
hoofrise 1 year ago
Ignorance thrives in poverty. In Africa poverty is a by-product of a blameless ignorance.
When people develop in such inequitable situations, with poor educational opportunities and limited access to knowledge and power, they are ignorant of the world we live in, ignorant of the means to gain and prosper in our worlds of silent privilege.
Ignorance does not deserve aggression. Aggression is self defeating to your goals against the ignorant - unless you wish to dis-empower them further.
SeekingSqueak 1 year ago
@SeekingSqueak Poverty is inflicted. Therefore, so is ignorance. Aggression may free you from the slavery of ignorance.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@SeekingSqueak Does the horse have a really expensive crack habit or something?
hoofrise 1 year ago
Founder is a disease of the laminae of the foot.
To understand founder you must understand what the laminae are. As weight is transferred down the leg to the foot it does not get transferred directly down through the bottom of the sole. The foot (coffin) bone is suspended from the hoof wall by the laminae. The result is, weight transfers to the walls of the hoof, then down the walls to the ground. This puts weight bearing on the toughest structure, the wall,
SeekingSqueak 1 year ago
@SeekingSqueak Founder is no disease. Nice try on the scientific explanation.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@hoofrise There are two recognizable forms of founder. In the acute form the disease comes on suddenly and the severity can vary depending on the size of the insult to the laminae. Some lameness experts believe that in the acute form, most of the damage is done in the initial few hours of the disease.
The chronic form of founder affects ponies and overweight horses on rapidly growing pasture or too much concentrate.
SeekingSqueak 1 year ago
@hoofrise Ok then we are talking about two different things. You are talking about lameness perhaps? Please do some googling, scholar or similar to see what I mean. Its possible that in Zimbabwe you use the term differently from the rest of the world.
SeekingSqueak 1 year ago
@SeekingSqueak So that's where you have been getting your info from? Google? Google can only bring you to the water trough.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@hoofrise No......... founder is an old expression used when a ship sinks. Founder in a horse also known as a "sinker" is when P3 rotates out the bottom of the hoof capsule. What do you mean by correct form? What is an out of form hoof to you?
mjr350 1 year ago
@mjr350 All coffin bones suspended in incorrect hoof form are sinking ships. The hooves you are use to seeing are out of form.
hoofrise 1 year ago
Know what you are talking about before acusing the owners of foundering in the horse's hoof!
crazyapples1 1 year ago
@crazyapples1 She did and does.
hoofrise 1 year ago
what do you mean by that?
crazyapples1 1 year ago
@crazyapples1 I mean the video makes perfect sense and the author knows what they are talking about.
hoofrise 1 year ago
well I see what you mean. Most of the time a founder is because of an overweight horse, thus the owner's fault. But sometimes they can get a founder from ridding on to soft of ground or standing in there soft dirt for to long. Also they can get them from bad farrier work. Sorry if I afended anyone.
crazyapples1 1 year ago
@crazyapples1 Founder is almost always caused by incorrect hoof form. Extra weight and riding will not negatively affect a healthy, correctly trimmed, barefoot hoof.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@hoofrise that is the most ignorant statement I’ve ever heard about Lamitis... Laminitis/Founder is not caused by incorrect hoof form... it is caused by a failure of the lamina/white line... causing a downward rotation of the coffin bone... what causes the failure is almost always something that causes massive swelling in the lamina like a histamine reaction... or constant pounding on hard ground... and that will NEVER truly heal... sometimes the animal can be made sound. But not every time.
NMFarrier 1 year ago
@NMFarrier Oh yes it is my moron friend. Incorrect hoof form causes mechanical weakening of the laminary connection. Hence leaving it susceptible to "triggers". The triggers are 99% likely to not have any effect on a hoof with a healthy laminary connection.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@hoofrise stay away from horses with laminitis... you have proven your ignorance... you are thinking about horses that have stretched out the lamina at the end... Laminitis occurs not at the bottom of the hoof but inside. What you believe to be founder is nothing more than a neglected hoof... God help your horse if it ever founders.
NMFarrier 1 year ago
@NMFarrier What do you mean by "at the end"?
I don't think you should tell me what I'm thinking.
Laminitis occurs inside the hoof capsule, yes, what is your point here?
The hoof form effects everything inside.
A neglected hoof has the same mechanical weakening factors of the laminary connection that your incorrect trimming has.
I have reversed many cases of founder.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@hoofrise you know nothing about me... accusing me of incorrect trimming shows more ignorance on your part... almost all my customers are barefoot. You are such an idiot! I treat laminitis if not every day every week... you don’t reverse anything a foundered horse is ALWASE foundered... by your own statements I know you have no clue about what you are doing... you have never dealt with real founder.
NMFarrier 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@NMFarrier My guess is you have never even seen a healthy laminary connection?
hoofrise 1 year ago
@NMFarrier Same thing with hard ground. A horse with healthy laminary connections, because of correct hoof form and a 3 week trim cycle by a competent trimmer along with physical training for the animal, is 99% less likely to road founder.
hoofrise 1 year ago
This video means well, but isn't very accurate.
MegF142857 1 year ago
@MegF142857 You are about as accurate as an etarucca.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@MegF142857 This video is pretty accurate. That's okay that you were wrong though because we know you meant well.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@hoofrise It's misleading! The video suggests that merely having hooves trimmed will be a solution to founder. "A simple visit from the farrier"? Wish was so simple, but it is not!!
The pretty picture of horses at 0:21 alone shows failure to mention that some can founder from too much grass. It's not just about hoof trimming.
Mine are natural barefoot trimmed at least every 6 weeks by certified hoof trimmer, but still one got some laminitis last spring. Learned a lot from that episode.
MegF142857 1 year ago
This is a good video.
It does address founder because overgrowth causes stress and constricted blood circulation. They will founder.
It addresses a lack of trim maintenance.
Nothing mentioned about feavers, disease, or other stress factors.
Look at the photo's again nay sayers.
The cofin bones are rotated the posture is poor and the hoof IS overgrown.
Neglected.
semtech30 2 years ago
Not caused by not trimming. Its usually because someone let their fat pony eat too much or left the grain bucket open with in reach of sugar poo the fat pony.
SoftVelvet 2 years ago
@SoftVelvet I hope you are not a vet!
hoofrise 1 year ago
DO some research please. YOur chowing pics of overgrown hooves - this is not founder. I get that you want horse owners to look after their horses but you must be careful about putting true and accurate info out there.
SeekingSqueak 2 years ago 8
@SeekingSqueak That is what founder is. Learn some grammar or at least how to use 'spellcheck' on your computer. It is not too much harder than signing into Youtube. Also, practice what you preach. If you knew what a properly shaped hoof looked like, you would know that anything other than that, is FOUNDER!
hoofrise 1 year ago
Not ture. I just lost a mare due to founder. She came up one day with a fever of 105 for unknown causes.(snakebite mabey?) As hard as we tried, we couldnt get the fever under control. Finally, the fever went down. Then, she foundered from the fever. We spend a lot of time and money but it proved too much for her in the end. This was a mare with over 60,000 invested her/ She was very loved and taken care of. Do your research
mrskipnattitude 2 years ago
DAMN! Good tryin, but sorry for your loss. Horrendous tale.
cwoodslinger 2 years ago
@mrskipnattitude The improper hoof form will cause all of that. If you did your research your mare would still be alive, maybe, and a bunch of kids wouldn't be starving because you are stupid!
Proof that a bunch of money can't help you if you don't see all of truths behind proper barefoot trimming.
I am quite sure you have never seen proper barefoot trimming.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@mrskipnattitude Conventional hoof care(shoeing, incorrect trims, stall keeping, farrier trims, pasture trims, etc...) causes founder just as much as these neglected hooves cause founder. So the money you spent was pointless. You could have just found someone that knew how to trim properly, they might have reversed it.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@hoofrise thats a LIE
NMFarrier 1 year ago
@mrskipnattitude Love does not = the amount of money we spend. Love=equals the amount of truth we see.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@hoofrise you wouldent know the truth if it kicked you i the head.
NMFarrier 1 year ago
Come on don't be feeding false information, FIRST DO SOME RESEARCH ON IT AND THEN UPLOAD YOUR VIDEOS!!!! don't just make up stuff//
xlxOrtizxlx 2 years ago
@xlxOrtizxlx It is not made up, it's the truth.
hoofrise 1 year ago
foundering is not always due to neglect! at times it is due to a horse eating too much rich grass. foundering is not due to long feet atall. its when the laminae detaches from the hoof wall causing it to pull the tendon, which makes the horse want to take pressure off his feet by leaning back on his heels. long feet is neglect because serious abscesses can get trapped if it is not regularly trimmed, but long feet never cause foundering.
horseluvor4 2 years ago
@horseluvor4 Everything you said is caused by long feet. Rich grass only affects stretched and weak lamina caused by long feet. WTF? The lever forces of the long feet usually cause the separation.
hoofrise 1 year ago
Ummm. Founder is not caused by not trimming your horses hooves. It's from by the coffin bone separating and angling down. The hoof wall is no longer attached to the coffin bone so it flares out. Horses get it from too much rich grass, grain or stressful events. Not lack of farrier.
canadagirljackie 3 years ago 11
@canadagirljackie Nice work!
hoofrise 1 year ago
@canadagirljackie But you are wrong.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@hoofrise Please explain how i am wrong. I have taken barefoot clinics and have many books on barefoot hoof trimming. I know what I am talking about. You can have a horse that has a perfect barefoot trim and feed it a pile of grain and it can still founder. A retained placenta can also cause founder. Too much grass can cause founder. There are many things, but I highly doubt a bad trim are one of them.
canadagirljackie 1 year ago
@canadagirljackie I am guessing you have never seen a correctly trimmed foot?
hoofrise 1 year ago
@canadagirljackie Bad trims ARE the major culprit. Grass only founders a foundered hoof.
hoofrise 1 year ago
@hoofrise So you mean to say that a horse has to have chronic laminitis initially before it can suffer the acute stage from the grass. How on earth do you think it got the laminitis in the first place if its a paddock pony and self trims.
If you break laminitis down you get lamin"itis".
Itis meaning inflammation so its just inflammation of the lamina. Its a huge subject to say that bad trimming is the major factor.
mjr350 1 year ago
Great Video, good job bringing the problem to attention. Yes it's deplorable how people neglect horses feet. I just went through a case of laminitis with a friend, and the mare also had cushings and had to be put down. I documented it, and will be dissecting the hooves, to show the damage. I posted the first one called "The tragedy of Laminitis" is you want to see it.
thehappyhoof 3 years ago
THank you!!! it is soo easy just sit back and pay someone money to keep your horse for aganizion pain!!!
Dollymayfrosty 3 years ago
Why do you want us to "Enjoy!" this? Do YOU enjoy seeing horses this way? You might want to rethink your description.
KrystalFrizz 4 years ago
@KrystalFrizz I enjoyed it. It wakes people up. Are you asleep?
hoofrise 1 year ago
@KrystalFrizz Actually, I enjoy seeing people wake up. It is quite agonizing to see what ignorance causes.
hoofrise 1 year ago