Byzantine Churches in Italy and Greece - Iglesias Bizantinas

[wolpm]

lysandros how can you deduce that i don't know history from just one statement of mine, which moreover you define exact by your own words, is this maybe an irrational doctrine of yours like that the egyptian were accused of? I think so

[wolpm]

i guess this is a price we owe to illuminism

[wolpm]

it's such a stupid thing to split the ancient greek culture from ancient middle eastern as an opposition between rationalism and science on one side and superstition on the other. The ancient greeks took from the phoenicians a god that was Tanit, they took from the "superstitious" egyptians the geometry. The same odissey was of assirian origin.

[Lysandros]

Exactly. But these are statements made by those who themselves have very little uderstanding of history.

[EliaHoreftaris]

Very beautiful!

Greece+Italy share this very unique Byzantine/Orthodox Christian Roman Empire heritage, to one extend or another...

One can mostly witness this on the southern parts of Italy...

From darkness, into His Light.

[perla51]

What splendid church,these are very treasures!!!!!Compliments for your job!!!! Bravo Perla.

[lutheranorthodoksi]

Interesting pictures. It is a shame that some of these churches no longer are around.

[Ellinas2007]

Byzantini architektoniki=KaragiozKalyva.

Byzantini mousiki=Klapsotourkogyftika.

Byzantio=karkinos pou efage ton Giganta Ellinismo Taliban chomeinistan.Byzantinoi= Anthropomorfa terata.Apolitistoi skotadistes=Christianoi Orthodoxoi.Ellinikoi Ortodoxoi Eklisia=POUSTOMAGAZO.

[ByzanKnight]

Justinian the great, byzantine greek emperor built ravenna's (venice) biggest church there, and made it look spectacular :)))

[kolobara08]

byzantin was an eastern roman empire, what do u greeks trying to claim as yours??

an illyrian (justinan) built hagia sofia, not a greek.

unless u go by the theory that the whole world became from ancient greeks. only then u would be right!!

[GeneralLevy100]

Justinian came from a Latin colony in 'Illyria' (a geographical expression, nothing more). He bore no relation to the barbarians who live there.

Greeks (Anthemios and Isidoros) built Hagia Sophia. GREEKS built BYZANTIUM! And GREEKS died defending it while MUSLIM ALBANIANS scum bowed before their islamic masters.

[pandemonio81]

"Had the Greek Emperors acted like Scanderbeg, the empire of the East might still have been preserved"

(Voltaire)

[GeneralLevy100]

Vasilios and others of the Macedonian Dynasty were good Emperors. However, how can you expect the Empire of the East to survive after having extinguished an external enemy, we found ourselves with another one straight away, those were the migratory patterns of the day (slavs, bulgars, seljuks etc....)

[pandemonio81]

Iustinianus was not "greek byzantine". The term byzantine is just a modern convention. On the contrary it was very insulting for an eastern roman to be called "greek". Iustinianus was an Illyrian and the empire was (eastearn) Roman. Ravenna has nothing to do with Venice and it has three important basilicas: Sant'Apollinare Nuovo, that was built by the ostrogoth Theodoric the Great, Sant'Apollinare in Classe and San Vitale that were built by Giuliano Argentario for the local bishop.

[GeneralLevy100]

Of course Byzantine is part of modern historical nomenclature. It draws the distinction between a gradual shift in what it meant to be a Roman from the time of Constantine reconsecration of a Roman capital in the East to Theodosius' formalization of Christianity to Heraclius' formalization of Greek as the official language.

[GeneralLevy100]

And it was insulting for a Roman of the East to be called a 'Greek' because of the implications of paganism it carried, not because of any percieved ethnic designation, after all, they were scornful and dismissive of the Western 'latins'. Effectively, after from the early 4th century to the early 7th what it meant to be a 'Roman' changed fundamentally.

[GeneralLevy100]

To be a Roman in the 7th century one had to speak Greek, practise Christian-'Greek' (what would later become 'Orthodox') culture and be a part of that church. The Romans of the East bore little to no relation following Justinian to the Romans of the West. Still in Greece today in some rural areas people refer to each other as 'Romans' as a folk name.

[pandemonio81]

Not to be a roman but to be named roman by the orientals.

[GeneralLevy100]

The Greeks of the East were the people who picked up the standard of Rome after it had fallen in the West, they were not 'orientals', they were as true a Roman as any in the Late Empire.

[GeneralLevy100]

Theodoric's church in Ravenna was built with the imported help of Eastern Roman (Greek) Architects and Artisans. This tradition of migratory patterns of architects to the west had been going on since Pliny (the younger) days since he mentions the fact that Rome imported many Greek architects.

[pandemonio81]

If you are referring to the basilic of San Vitale, you are wrong. The architect is absoultely unkown: we don't know who he was. What we know is that Giuliano Argentario financed the construction of the basilicas i mentioned.

[pandemonio81]

Regarding the Ancient times, the roman architecture became much more advanced than the greek one, in fact things like the vault, the arch, the dome, acqueducts, amphitheatrums and many other italic things were inexistent or they were not frequent in the greek archietecture.

[pandemonio81]

And if they called greek architects in Rome, it was probably for the temples, not for the roman typical structures, the public buildings that were not in Greece. Besides the churches derive from the architecture of the roman basilica. And the bizantine church is surmounted by the dome, that was a roman achievement.

[GeneralLevy100]

You are far too eager to reinforce your claims over things that I never called into question. The dome is a Roman innovation, like the free standing arch and vaulted ceiling. As for San Vitale, it's pretty obvious the Basillica was built with imported help from Constantinople. Ravenna did not possess within it's confines the technical expertise to pull something like that off.

[pandemonio81]

San Vitale is an unique basilica exactly because it's an union of several styles that was made possible by the different cultures that lived in that italian area: the greeks couldn't to have something like San Vitale in greece because there were not artistic elements that were in Italy. Who built that church didn't build just an other greek church in Italy. Greece alone had not the technical expertise to pull something like that off.

[GeneralLevy100]

As for imported Greek architects, Apollodorus is perhaps the most famous example. And he hardly constructed 'simply temples', he constructed the greatest building project in Rome under the Antonines, Trajan's Market and Forum.

[pandemonio81]

The greek architects came in Italy especially to build temples. The other things belong to the roman architecture and not to the greek one: of course the architects who built the typical roman buildings were not only italic and someone was also greek. For example the roman architect Apollodorus was not italic, although he built roman structures. But regarding him once more you are wrong: he was not greek, APOLLODORUS (APOLLODORUS OF DAMASCUS) WAS SYRIAN.

[pandemonio81]

The most important know roman architects were Lucius Cocceius Auctus, Apollodorus and Vitruvius (probably this one was the greatest): two italics and one syrian.

[GeneralLevy100]

By the way, Pandemonio, did you know that the last great Latin History was written by a Greek? You must have heard of Ammianus.

[pandemonio81]

Are you mad? first of all the place of birth of him is not absolutely certain, second the greatest historians of Rome are Titus Livius and Tacitus.

[GeneralLevy100]

Ammianus himself states he is a 'soldier and a Greek', he specifically self-identifies as Greek in his History. Also, I didn't state he was as great as Livy or Tacitus, rather that he wrote the 'last great latin history'.

[pandemonio81]

I know that quote by him, and in fact I'm not denying he was greek, but the historians state they are not absolutely certain he was greek.

[GeneralLevy100]

who says so?

[GeneralLevy100]

Dio Cassius specifically refers to him as a Greek. Pliny also mentions the importation of Greeks as architects in his letters 'they come to us far more than we go to them'.

[GeneralLevy100]

Again, San Vitale doesn't differ that much from other byzantine churches of the era, it's just your standard basillica - perhaps more ornamental in nature, but the mosaics have survived a lot longer, that's all.

[pandemonio81]

It's usually known as syrian. Probably he was not greek at all. The point is that he spent a long part of his life in Greece. APOLLODORUS OF DAMASCUS, syrian.

[GeneralLevy100]

It's well known there were Greeks in practically every Eastern province, usually part of the local artistocracy. Now, I ask you again, where is the primary source stating he was Syrian? Dio describes him as Greek. That should be proof enough.

[pandemonio81]

Procopius in "Buildings" says he was Syrian.

Dio describes him as greek because he was hellenized, but he was a syrian of ethnicity.

[pandemonio81]

Or better: Apollodorus was a NABATAEAN.

[GeneralLevy100]

Procopius' words are that Apollodorus was 'from Syria'. He gives no insight into his ethnicity, given his background, the fact he was able to travel to Rome, to recieve to many highly prized contracts, it's likely he was part of the local artistocracy of Damascus who were Greeks and Roman citizens. Regardless, Apollodorus probably saw himself as a Greek 'Roman', moreso than a Greek 'Syrian' anyway. He would have had civic pride in Damascus, but then so did Dio in his city.

[pandemonio81]

I read he probably was an hellenized nabataen from Syria, and in fact his treatise on war seems to be written by a person who doesn't use greek as first language. Also his name, Apollodorus is not his original one, that could to be Aboudat.

[GeneralLevy100]

I doubt he was Nabataen somehow, the local aristocracy in Syria was predominantly Greek. As for his Poliorcetica, I've never heard it's Greek was indication of non-native speaker, yeh, his prose isn't as good as say... Plutarch's, but it's not *that* bad.

[pandemonio81]

philology cans to make us to understand if someone writes in his native language or not.

[GeneralLevy100]

show me such a source that claims so then.

[pandemonio81]

I read it. Today I made a little research on internet but I found only two sites that says his greek doesn't seem his native language, one was on a site of a group of scholars of architecture or something like this. But I didn't find the original source of this opinion. I asked for it, because I've no intention to go in a library now for finding again quotes about. It's not an issue so important to me discover Apollodorus was greek rather than syrian, because I'm not greek neither syrian.

[pandemonio81]

BUT

rEGARDINg Cassius Dio,

you said he wrote Apollodorus of Damascus was a greek. I read the books LXVIII and LXIX until the death of Apollodorus, the books on Trajan and Hadrian: there Cassius Dio doesn't write he was greek, he just says in the LXIX he was an architect who made a forum, the odeum and the gymnasium under Trajan and that was sentenced to death by Hadrian himself. Where C. Dio states Apollodorus was a greek, book and paragraph?

[GeneralLevy100]

Historia Augusta Vit. Hadr. 19:13

Also, see 'Aufstieg und Niedergang der romischen Welt' for more information on Apollodorus' background.

[pandemonio81]

But Historia Augusta was not written by Cassius Dio ! Cassius Dio never stated Apollodorus was a greek.

Man... Historia Augusta???

Do you know that is considered as a pack of lies? Noone considers Historia Augusta as a reliable source. Try to search something on the credibility of Historia Augusta even in internet. That work is a joke.

And if there it was written Apollodorus was a greek, I should be definitively certain he was not greek at all, and I'm serious.

[pandemonio81]

Anyway,

Hitoria Augusta XIX, 13:

"Et cum hoc simulacrum post Neronis vultum, cui antea dicatum fuerat, Soli consecrasset, aliud tale Apollodoro architecto auctore facere Lunae molitus est."

It doesn't say the architect Apollodorus was a greek.

[pandemonio81]

DE VITA HADRIANI

[saftaromanul]

Italians speack a version of Grrek alfabet !! Italy is Greek

[pandemonio81]

We don't speak an alphabet. The alphabet is used to write. The latin Alphabet derives from the alphabet of an ancient greek city in Italy (Cuma). The greek alphabet derives from the phoenician one, but I don't say only for this that Greece is Lebanon.

[Antigone1926]

Really great!!!

[Onroper]

I love the song. its from Asia minor

[d0r3lu]

e superb...o asa muzica mai rar auzi!romeica adevarata!