Interview with Robert Jensen on pornography (1 of 5)

[sgsilver]

The physical damage to women's bodies isn't enough of a downside to watching pornography? That along with the warped view of sexuality and the damage to relationships that it propagates?

[Plato86]

There is so much pornography in our society that one no longer needs to pay for porn, it is given away for free. Online you can find the hardest porn out there and watch it completely for free. That being said I do not see any down side, besides the physical damage done to the bodies of the porn actresses themselves. In fact if you look at studies done in Japan you find that increased usages of porn are positively correlated with reduced rates of rape. Jensen is right about racism in porn though

[sgsilver]

@johndory16 The "choice" of entering the pornography industry becomes much more complicated when looking at a woman's history of sexual abuse, her education, her socioeconomic level, and her economic opportunities. The percentage of women with histories of sexual abuse in the prostitution and pornography industries is much higher than women in general. Again, I'd read Jensen's book to get a fuller discussion of this concept of "choice".

[sgsilver]

@johndory16 I think what you wrote is interesting -- it is not something you would want your daughter to do, yet it is acceptable for other people's daughters to do it. I think you have to ask yourself why it is acceptable to use other parents' daughter for your own sexual gratification, but not for other men to use your own daughter for that same purpose.

[sgsilver]

@johndory16 He doesn't criticize pornography as "unmasculine" -- quite the opposite, I would say.

It may be fantasy for the men consuming pornography, but it is not fantasy for the women who are in pornography.

I would encourage you to read his book.

[4teepee]

Robert Jensen complains about heterosexual pornography but not homosexual pornography. His hypocrisy is breathtaking.

[sgsilver]

@4teepee Why is it hypocritical for him to focus on heterosexual pornography?

[4teepee]

@sgsilver -- Why does he single out heterosexual pornography? Dealing with homosexual pornography would put him in the middle of a PC thicket.

[sgsilver]

@4teepee If you read his book, he explains why he chooses to focus his criticism on heterosexual pornography. The main reasons are that there are different issues with gay and lesbian pornography and that heterosexual pornography is much more widespread and has had much more influence on society.

[4teepee]

@sgsilver -- That's a dodge. Even if his distinctions are correct, it does not preclude discussion of homosexual pornography. Again, though, that would put him in the middle of a PC thicket.

[graleh]

@4teepee Whatever people do, it's always wrong, isn't it?

[blissfulbhajan]

I cried three times while reading this book.

[iamme611]

Good interview OAG!

[sgsilver]

Actually, Jensen states that the reasons why women enter the pornography industry are complex. The concept of "free will" needs to be examined carefully. If we look at prostitution, about 40% of women who are prostituted have been the victims of sexual abuse. I would suspect it is not much different in the pornography industry, particularly when you hear the stories of abuse from those women who have left the industry.

[JohnnyCash08]

I don't see much of a difference between Jensen and far-right or religious extremists. All of them are a danger to our free, reasonable society.

[sgsilver]

Exactly how is he dangerous, and how is he similar to the far-right religious extremists? How is he a danger to free society?

[JohnnyCash08]

Well I thought he was being really ignorant and intolerant against women who work in this industry on their own free will.

Since he never states this explicitly I must have mixed up your opinion with his. But from what I heard his opinion is pretty similar.

No your point is that there are dropouts who are against pornography, right? Wow what an argument. According to ur "logic" the fact that there are a lot of anti-Semitic books by (Ex-)Jews speaks also in favor of Antisemitism, right?

[sunclov]

All 3 of the men in my life were impotent.

I'm 28 now and a single mother.

All these men in my life were under 30, (and no, I'm not ugly).

I refused to do anal and bondage, and this lead to the ultimate demise in all my relationships. Every single man I meet has those needs, so I've chosen to be alone. (and I am sexual, just not perverse)

It has impacted society, U NIMRODS!!!!

It's the Death of masculinity.

[95topaz]

Sunclov: I've been more men than I care to say. In my experience, the ones who didn't view porn on any regular basis didn't expect me to do things I felt were degrading. All the regular porn viewers did. I, too, have chosen to be alone. Will we eventually have a society of women choosing to be alone and men wishing they could be with women and wondering why we women don't want them? HInt for men: It's the porn and your insistence that we all degrade ourselves like the women in porn do.

[JohnnyKubark]

@sunclov Every man you know wants to do anal and bondage? I really don't believe that.

[JohnnyCash08]

What a dangerous guy. He's not much better than the far-right extremists.

[sunclov]

It's destroyed society, family, and relationships.

[jacoblandes]

Gory torture violence is harder to get away with, as opposed to promiscuity, which is one reason why porn is more dangerous than, say, "Saw." The results of gory violence are a dead body (if that), while the results of promiscuity are disease, distrust, bastards, and a bent view of the world, as well as feeding that sweaty machine with your dollars. It is a long-term investment in darkness. Porn wrecks the soul by worshipping the body. Mild violence to the body though can save the soul.

[MacoutesGabber]

Bad argument. If pornography is a product of "culture," then why do men masturbate? Most cultures are against it, yet, men do it anyway. Besides, porno is a fantasy, not reality. Otherwise, we'd have to put movie makers depicting all crimes in jail. That's absurd.

What "mystery" in sex??? It's fucking, and sucking and licking basically. What a crock!

[sgsilver]

It's certainly not a fantasy to the women who are in it.

[JohnnyCash08]

I didn't know they were forced to be in it. Luckily you don't force your opinion on them. Or think you can tell them what's right and wrong...

[sgsilver]

Don't take my word for it. Listen to the women who have left the industry and who talk about their experiences.

[sunclov]

thats right!!!!!

[Femminista21]

I think if you were the woman that was getting fucked in every orifice you would have a different opinion. Also, have you noticed how hard it is for you to get off without thinking about porn, how unsatisfying sleeping with a real woman is when she wont do every degrading thing you see in porn and have you noticed how divorced from reality sex seems? (I'm assuming you are at least a regular user if not a heavy user)

[zxygh]

However, why do feminists and other people who oppose pornography, on the grounds that it promotes misogyny, never talk about horror movies? I have never seen an article, heard a speech, let alone read a book about the misogyny in horror films. For example, you can go to Blockbuster and rent films showing women being tortured and murdered (of course it is all acting and special effects), but Blockbuster does not carry pornography. Before video, you had to go to an "adult theater" to see

[sgsilver]

One pro-feminist that comes to mind is Jackson Katz, who has talked about horror films, particularly the juxtaposition of sexually suggestive women and violent acts committed by men. (See the documentary "Tough Guise" produced by Media Education Foundation)

[regemo]

Isn't there a difference though? While watching a horror film most people are enjoying being in a state of suspense and fear. While watching some the worst porns people are enjoying the feeling of power and degradation involving misogyny and racism.

[zxygh]

Allow me to respond by using the following example. About three months ago, Kevin Smith released the film, "Zack and Miri Make A Porno". The poster for this film, which depicts simulated oral sex, was banned in several American cities. At the same time, the film "Saw V" was released. The poster for that film shows a man wearing a mask made out of the flesh of one of his victims. No one has complained about the poster for "Saw V".

[loveistheparadox]

Within your response you have answered your own question. I am absolutely stunned that you haved failed to internalize the difference between ACTUAL violence against women and media depiction. I would like you to interview an actress that appears in a scary movie and then a porn worker. Ponder on the differences in responses, read more of Jensen's, and Gail Dines' work, peruse through the internet and count how many sites dehumanize women.

[sgsilver]

I don't think that Jensen is stating that men are "dunces who think rape is funny" (although there is a significant amount of rape pornography being distributed). And I would agree with you that economic inequality and a lack of opportunities for women are major reasons as to why women are recruited into the industry. However, the overwhelming majority of pornography consumers are men -- it is the men who fuel the demand for the pornography. That can't be ignored.

[zxygh]

First of all, what do you mean by "rape pornography"? Second of all, there is an unspoken assumption that pornography is inherently violent. I don't agree. If someone wants to argue that pornography: promotes emotional retardation in men, that it portrays women in an unrealistic light, and finally, that looking at pornography is a waste of time, I would agree with them. However, pornography generally displays explicit sex. Whether this is psychologically healthy or not is up to debate.

[sgsilver]

What I mean by "rape pornography" is pornography that portrays rape. Jensen's point is that mainstream pornography has increasingly become more misogynistic, racist, and violent.

[WhiskeyyWoman]

Not all pornography simulates situtations of rape. All pornography does is give horny men and women a chance to have a visual to pop one off to. Pornography as one entity is not degrading to women. Rather, it is the PEOPLE behind it who do so but many women in the adult entertainment industry are finally learning how to take control of their careers in that world. Jenna Jameson is just one of these women that took control and made a multi-million dollar business out of it.

[sgsilver]

Yes, and there are female pimps as well. There are both men and women who take advantage of other women.

It might be a visual to "pop one off to", but there are real consequences for both the women involved as well as the consumer.

As far as it not being degrading -- if we reduce women to nothing more than objects for sexual gratification, then that is inherently degrading.

[NaturalGrace]

@WhiskeyyWoman When you can name examples of women "in control" in porn on one hand, they are the exception that prove the rule.

[zxygh]

In a review of Michael Moore's movie Farenheit 9/11, Jensen took Moore to task over what he perceived to be "racial stereotypes" in the film. No wonder why everybody hates the Left.  Look Jensen, there were no racial stereotypes in that film. At least Moore actually goes out and does something to inform the public. What do you do, except guilt trip and talk to your fellow Leftists?

[sgsilver]

Jensen gives criticism to both the Left and the Right. However, those on the Right are generally not going to be open to reading his work, let alone considering his views. Those on the Left are, especially with regard to the issue of pornography.

[zxygh]

It seems to me that the pornography industry fluorishes because of the following factors: economic inequality (not just between men and women but extreme class inequality in general); sexual ignorance; and poor law enforcement. I am not saying that these problems are easily fixed. However, nothing that I have read by Jensen even addresses these problems. It seems as if the Left would rather falsely accuse men, who look at pornography, of being subliterate dunces who think rape is funny.

[Advocate1234]

The amount of brainwashing that has been done by the Feminists in our culture is disgusting.

It has done nothing but criminalizing masculinity.

[sgsilver]

Much of what occurs in the name of masculinity (rape, war, assault, etc.) is already criminal. What Jensen argues is for the elimination of the masculine/feminine distinctions and just have one category -- human.

[Advocate1234]

I'm sorry. There are virtually no similarities between men and women. None.

One must go to college for many years to be brainwashed out of understanding this fact. We have completely different brains because of the estrogen and testosterone levels during pregnancy.

We might as well be a different species.

To attempt to eliminate masculinity is not only impossible it is bad for society. Most of the problems in this world are caused by men who don't know what it means to be masculine.

[sgsilver]

My only response to this is my hope that you will pick up this book and read it with an open mind. I think there is much that you and other men can learn.

[Advocate1234]

If I suggested to you to read a book teaching you that 1+1=32432, and to read it with an open mind, would you?

Men right now in America drop out of high school more, drop out of college more, are more likely to be victims of crime, are more likely to be in jail, are more likely to commit suicide, have worse grades in school, etc.

This is all a result of people like you and this joker who have been trying to feminize boys. If you want to know what men need, they need to be masculine.

[sgsilver]

Men need to be neither masculine or feminine. They need to be human. And that means treating other humans with respect and decency. It's regrettable that you are unable to seriously consider views that many differ from your own. I hope that one day you are able to be open enough to read the book and consider its arguments.

[Advocate1234]

Unable to consider these views?! I have already be bombarded with them for 20+ years. I've graduated from college.

My whole life masculinity was criminalized. You think any of this garbage is new?

[sgsilver]

I and most been have been bombarded an early age with the concept that men need to be dominant, controlling, and violent in order to be "masculine". I don't know what definition of masculinity you're working from, but if it is the one that most men are inculcated with, I would argue that it has has a devastating effect not only on women but on men themselves.

[Advocate1234]

Masculinity is the idea that men have a responsibility to fight for those who cannot protect themselves. This means that violence is justified sometimes.

Masculinity means that men have a responsibility to take care of their families, and the women in their lives.

Masculinity means that men should attempt to be the BEST at whatever they do. If this is what you mean by dominance, so be it.

Boys should learn not to cry unless someone dies or something really happy happens in their lives.

[sgsilver]

With regard to the first, second, and third, why should these qualities be limited just to men? Shouldn't women exhibit these qualities as well? With regard to the last statement, I really don't know how to respond to that except that it gives me a profound sense of sadness to know that there are men who still believe in such a rigid, confining concept of masculinity -- and to know that there are boys who are raised by such men.

[Advocate1234]

Because these qualities are inherent in men and not in women. Women are not by their nature as competitive, violent, or as sexual predatory (I don't mean rape, I mean seeking someone to have sex with).

Masculinity teaches boys how to channel those innate felling.

Boys should be taught to be strong.

If women chose to do this, fine. But, it is more important for boys to grow up this way.

[WhiskeyyWoman]

Women ARE or are perfectly capable of seeking someone to have sex with. To negate that would be incredibly stupid. The only reason why people would probably think that is because we're still brought up with this archaic idea that women are sexually passive and coy which reflects that virginal morality we are taught to hold as young girls from those years and years of religious reign.

EVERYBODY should be taught to be strong.

[EvodiusTheophile]

What does it mean to be "strong"?

[jmrleroy]

I agree with you except the crying thing. Men are basically hunters and they want ot pursue women. with egalitarian sex, men are not satisified. That's why " game playing" women are ususally more desired.

[jmrleroy]

I disagree. We are similar, but different. Both mne/women desire to have families, love, passion in our lives. Our process is different.

[robhirsch]

Porn is a flawed and temporary fix to a recurring problem that will exist for as long as humans inhabit the planet. The problem for men is this: how do I experience periodic sexual release without a partner? The answer is ultimately a matter of personal choice, but the actual costs to self and one's immediate environment should not go unquestioned. Rejection by potential partners is a reality that men have to be prepared to deal with. To escape into porn is a luxury that men cannot afford.

[sgsilver]

Very well said. Pornography is not only destructive for the women involved in the industry, but also for the women involved with men who consume it. It is also self-destructive for the men themselves.

[silvermoon577]

Porn is sick!

[lilprince585]

Yeah, because when a woman has fifteen guys fuck her and then cum in her mouth/on her face while calling her a cum-dumpster or a slut, it is really empowering and good for women. You sound smart!

[daenku32]

As someone who has consumed quite a big amount of porn (being a loner computer geek for 4 years), I can tell you that I've NEVER consumed porn that had any references to "cum-dumpster" or "slut". I hear women call other women "sluts" more often that I hear men. When men do it, they sound like Beavis. Not exactly your "masculine ideal".

[evelsteev]

Not all porn is like that.And besides, it JUST porn. It's not reality. Think about it, if we could ACTUALLY do that in real life, than what would need porn FOR???? Get real.

[swensu]

it is good to an untrained mind well i love porn too but i no what it does to society but it will continue on.

[DClaudeKatz]

You might want to post part 2 of this interview as a video response to this (and part 3 to part 2 and so on), so that it would be easier to follow the sequence.