Both Starts at Belgium 87 - Mansell and Senna

[fernandovogel]

Wow, how biased is James Hunt? What a sad comment from this sad, depressed man. One who is only called "champion" because Lauda nearly got killed in Nurburgring and refused to race the last race in Japan (when he had a three-point lead in the championship). If he wanted to be reasonable, he would say it was both drivers fault, or a "misunderstanding". "Clearly Senna's fault" is a ridiculously biased comment that make him look as someone who was never behind the wheel of a F1.

[AlejjSi]

@fernandovogel I would thint that he said because it was Mansell, who was the other with Senna in the crash...he reacted like the same in Portugal 1989, where Mansell took out Senna after he was black flagged...normally, he was acnoledged the brilliance of Senna, but when Mansell was around...

[tor378a]

As much as I loved James hunt's commentary (may he RIP), he was completely wrong about this. This was very stupid by Mansell, not only to try to pass there, but so early in the race. The Williams was a better car and all he had to do was wait to pass at the top of the hill past Eau Rouge.

[kzosel]

@tor378a I totally agree...

From the footage it seems as if Senna kept his car pretty close to the inside, so it looks like Nigel tried to squeeze Ayrton off, and left him nowhere to go. I love Nigel, but he threw away a lot of races...

[meachieballz]

The racing line isn't the whole inside, u go out-in-out. Not in-in-in.

[Smiffyalltheway]

Theres no way that was Senna's fault, not all of us brits would favour Mansell here but Murray and James do, which is disappointing really. Senna's class was apparent right from the start, first in the Toleman, then in the Lotus. That 87 Lotus was crap compared to that Williams, yet he used to always race with the front runners and challenge for pole every race. SENNA = LEGEND.

[tmmphono]

MAN!!! Look to the HUGE difference between Senna and his team-mate!! It's the larger of the history!! I remember clearly, this Lotus was slow, the Williams were ridiculously better (even the McLarens), but even though, Senna was smoking Mansell and Piquet in this race!! In both starts, GENIUS!! Schumacher NEVER did something like that, mainly if you consider the opposite drivers (Mansell, Prost, Piquet, etc). Senna = GENIUS!!!

[MrTiberius1000]

Hello? James Hunt from Britain comments in British TV an accident involving a popular British driver. Okay?

....btw an accident is nearly always (ok, it was always just Schumachers fault, we all know that) the fault of both drivers and in this case, there were two stubborn men, who never could accept the other one to pass him. This is what made them so successful.

[jakubkrcma]

The contact was either a mutual thing or a Mansell fault. It is clear Senna's car goes bumpy jumpy just before the contact for not having enough room on the "flat dark stuff". :-) Just like Lewis today, Nigel was too hot headed to wait for a better opportunity. But I understand it is a matter of racing spirit, heart, etc. These guys are under insane pressure. Most of which comes from their own egos. At least they can never be boring to watch. :-) I think Mansell was actually better than Prost.

[jamiegmcdougal]

The camera isn't in the best position, but it looks like Senna locks his front right wheel on the dust and runs wide into Mansell...

[cosmictywlite]

Senna was on the inside,taking the apex the same as every other driver, racing that day ..: except Mansell..remember Hunt is a bloody pom after all

[darwinism14]

this was Senna's fault, Hunt is right this time

Mansell had half the car infront and clearly had the racing line

[fateola]

@darwinism14

No, if you watch closely you will see that Senna's right wheel's are exactly on the edge of the circuit all the way around the corner. Mansell closed the door into him, leaving him literally nowhere to go. At no point did Senna expand his cornering radius. Nobody's fault but Mansell's. You cannot apply the racing line argument if there is another car sitting on the racing line with absolutely nowhere to go.

[flipsidedogchop]

@fateola how the fuck can you tell "at no point did senna expand his cornering radius"?!

you cant see from that camera view, senna fanboy!

[fateola]

@flipsidedogchop

It is quite simple once you have been watching the sport long enough. @7:20, watch the position of Senna's right front wheel. At no point prior to striking Mansell does it leave the inside edge of the track. It is therefore clear that the collision is caused by Mansell narrowing his cornering radius. I made this clear already in my earlier post, but I'm reposting for your benefit.

[flipsidedogchop]

@fateola You cant fucking see it from that view retard! and dont give me this ive been watching F1 longer than you bullshit cos i can guarantee you havent!

[fateola]

@flipsidedogchop

Yes, you very easily can, I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble.

I've watched every race live since 1992, and gone back to watch many races from the 70s and 80s. If you've seen more races than that and still can't derive basic information from such a video, I can't help you.

In any case, I see no point in continuing discussion with somebody so rude. If you intend to convey ideas to other people, you would do better to be less offensive. Good day.

[flipsidedogchop]

@fateola ive watched every race since the mid 80's but that doesnt help you see this clearer....

The only way would be an arial view!

[BiggerThinking1]

James Hunt made many commentary errors - but this was utterly ridiculous- its actually hard to believe he was ever a racing driver of any level after making a call as stupid as this blaming Senna for "taking out Mansell" here- utterly ludicrous- his last statement here implies Senna came from behind and put himself on the dirt - its as if Hunt forgot, just 10 second after seeing it, that it was MAnsell coming from behind.

Hunt must have been on the turps here

[eudemonarecool]

i notice senna's 87 car isn't the black JPS Lotus.

did lotus switch sponsers in 87?

[myautomobilefunk]

@eudemonarecool are you blind? cant you see the fuckin Camel brand all over the fuckin Lotus? the black lotus was sponsored by john player special, shit open your eyes .

[eudemonarecool]

@myautomobilefunk i love how someone gets mad all of a sudden.

U MAD, BRO?

[myautomobilefunk]

@eudemonarecool I'm not .

[Smiffyalltheway]

@myautomobilefunk Oi you fucking retard, the guy was only asking a question. All you had to say was, yes Lotus switched from the black JPS Lotus to the Camel sponsor for the 1987 season. Surely thats not too hard even for you. And we know it was sponsored by John Player Special, he did say JPS and thats what that means incase you didnt know. Wanker.

[Gauchoo1234]

Piquet owned both Mansell and Senna back then.

Sorry :-(

[back2frinky]

@Gauchoo1234 How do you work that out? Mansell had six wins to Piquet's three in 1987, plus Mansell was injured for the final two races. If Senna had been driving the FW11, he probably would have been world champion.

Regarding the collision, Senna was right up against the kerb, so it was Mansell's fault for not giving him enough room.

[Gauchoo1234]

@back2frinky Dude..... Piquet scored enough point to clear ~15/20 pts ahead of poor Mansell in '87.

Mansell was always a good entertainer, but a bad driver. Yeah he got 31 victories but at the cost of 100+ accidents/abandons caused by mishandling of the car, pushing too much or having little understanding of the car characteristics and/or limits.

Sorry, this is the truth. Just ask Prost, Piquet, Rosberg, Lauda and others.

Piquet was not the fastest, but was more constant.

[sinner2208]

What a pair of tools... Murray and Hunt... It is obvious that they were favoring their "mate" Nigel... IT IS IN NO WAY Senna's fault!! A 5 year old can tell you that!! It just goes to show the way some people are blinded by their own nationality...

[anderwicz]

totally agrre with you, senna was on his line to make the curve .... if mansell wan´t to overtake and choose this point of the track, it was his responsability!! 2 great drivers!!! Senna and Mansell!!!

[christschinwon]

Mansell believed it was Senna's fault, illusrating his point by finding Senna after the race & ending up being pulled off him by some Lotus mechanics. I wish that had been on film!

[gowrishan]

Senna had so many haters :) - clearly Mansell's fault :)

[24jeffgordan88JRfan]

@gowrishan lol it's was fun being a senna fan :)

[filippone55157]

even back in the day, spa was an awesome track! Thanks for the post!

[Elbrusbase]

Jim Clark>Ayrton Senna>Michael Schumacher>Juan Manuel Fangio>Alain Prost>Nigel Mansell>Stirling Moss>Gilles Villeneuve>Alberto Ascari>Jackie Stewart>Niki Lauda>Jack Brabham>Emerson Fittipaldi>Jochen Rindt> Nelson Piquet>Graham Hill...

[Abujamra2]

Senna's fanboys bore me, honestly. Most of them never have ever seen he racing at all. Mostly have lesse than 20 years old. Go get a life, suckers.

[chaba32]

As much as I like Senna for what he has been represent in motor racing - determination, speed, skill - I disagree with most of you in this case. Mansell was about half a car ahead heading into the corner and it was Senna who should have realized he had lost the lead and who should have backed off.

Look if everyone would continue to push on in these kind of situations all of them would end up like this. Unwritten rule: if you are front you have the advantage and the other one should accomodate.

[flipsidedogchop]

@chaba32 totally agree!

Mansell gave senna enough room to make the corner. Senna got into the dirt trying to defend offline and slid straight into Mansells right rear wheel

[edd55r]

I remember watching this at the time and fully beliving Senna was at fault. (as I'm English Mansell could do no wrong at the time) but looking at it now what could Senna do? bit of a over ambitious move on Mansell's part!!

[gowrishan]

@edd55r GW you are one of the few Englishmen who don't fufill Aleister Crowley's description of "Pernicious Albion". You have a rounded vision and can see Mansell's error.

[bubi8894]

yeah somebody has that footage? mansell grabbing senna by the throat?

[SupaSix1]

Wheres the footage of mansell grabbing senna by the neck after??

[flipsidedogchop]

Racing incident! Both could have backed off, no one did and thats what happens!

[Rickat1964]

I couldn't believe what I was hearing, it was Senna's fault? He was blocking, protecting his lead!

[Forzascuderiaf1]

@Rickat1964 mansell is british

[drc911]

@Rickat1964 Of course. How this latinamerican guy tries to be world champion! What an insult, he should stop his car and let the professionals drive. Is a very old way of thinking.

[rja1977]

Mansell's fault...no doubt.

[con8v11]

Mansell and Senna were cut from the same cloth. They would both have a go if they felt there was an opportunity to pass. Thats what made them both great drivers. They both at times made errors of judgement.

[alexvele]

Mansell's mistake...

[sargatanas88]

Piquet said at the end of the year that was a big mistake from Mansell, not a driving error, but a tactical one. Nelson said the Williams miles better than the Lotus so Nigel had only to wait for a good opportunity. before bus stop on the inside would have been much more safe.

[20mlt09]

in fairness to james hunt he did apologise in the next grand prix program

[raarfrabu]

Senna forever!!!

[albferraz]

No surprise they blame Ayrton, they´re british... Mansell tried some stupid overtake from outside, he should´ve waited for the straight area after Eau Rouge to try to overtake him...

[jonybr10]

Majestic ¨Senna"!

4ever the best.

[IShallTellYouWhat]

This is a fantastic video showing some history, and thank you for uploading it. Shame there's not more, including the post-race melee.

I can't for the life of me see why anyone's saying this is Senna's fault. I may be missing something, but if Mansell is going to try to overtake on the outside and cut Senna off, then he cannot expect Senna to yield by slowing down mid-bend. It was Mansell's responsibility to overtake with room on the apex for Senna.

Anyway, all sadly days long gone now.

[lucianoestivill]

@IShallTellYouWhat Take a look from 1:56sec to 1:58sec, Senna pushing out Piquet while they were side by side. I don't know knowif this one in Spa was Ayrton's fault (I'm inclined to believe it's not), but Ayrton sometimes pushed too much on and over the tricks allowed in the racing book. I am one of his biggest fans, but I cannot avoid saying He used to walk the line a bit too much..... His incident with Prost in Suzuka 89 was, to say the least, predictable: a bit of his own medicine...

[june372]

@IShallTellYouWhat I agree completely. How can that idiot commentator say "clearly Senna's fault"...he's seeing the same screen we are, right?

[machvelocy]

@june372 senna was on the dirty line, mansell already in front of him in the PROPER racing line, you are an idiot for calling james hunt idiot. James Hunt knowledge about racing is miles ahead than you