A word search of Strongs # "2064" & "came" brings up more than 198 occurrences of it in the KJV-NT. Most are undeniably past tense and not a process.
If these were arriving to heaven via a natural series of deaths - John would not have been puzzled nor astonished.
Also, in order to believe it the way you propose, a person has to be willing to take the prophecies of Rev out of context and out of chronological order - which could dangerously lead to breaching the warning given in Rev 22:18-19.
Yehoshua's ministry cannot possibly be midway into the 70th week -- Dan 9:26 says He is "cut off" right after the 69th week is completed. The words "It is Finished" was the cut-off point. The torn curtain said it all - that Israel is cut off AT THAT POINT.
The 70th week is yet future - Rev 7 shows God resuming the clock with Israel at the sealing of the 144,000. The Church appears in heaven as the GREAT MULTITUDE immediately after that -- when the "Time of Gentiles is fulfilled" - Rm 11:25
If you concede that the Great Multitude in Rev 7 is the Church, then this would have to mean you believe the Church will be present in the great tribulation. John is told of the answer to where the great multitude came from v.13. He is told they came out of the great tribulation, v.14. They had been in the tribulation experiencing hunger, thirst and the scorching sun, v.16, as well as being driven to tears, v.17.
The words "taken out of" could just as easily mean they are removed just as the Great Tribulation commences.
The last verse of Rev 6 declares the wrath of God about to commence. This embarks the sealing of 144k Jews and the removal of the Church all at that commencement of God's wrath. The Church is promised to have tribulations - but not appointed to God's wrath.
The words "taken out of" do not appear in Rev 7. Verse 13-14 says: Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from? And I said to him, Sir, you know. So he said to me, These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation..." This does not imply they are removed just as the GT commences. The elder answers his own question as to where they came from. Answer: the great tribulation with hunger, thirst, sunstroke and tears.
"Come out of" / "taken out of" either way shows them removed from GT just as it commences.
Proof of that is in the context. The only event occurring between the announcement of God's wrath and the Great Mult. is the sealing of 144k Jews to embark Daniel's 70th week -- and, more importantly, the trumpet or bowl events -- God's wrath -- do not occur until after the Great Mult. have arrived in heaven.
The question in v.13 is: "where did they come from?" The answer in v.14 is "the GT". They were in it experiencing hunger, thirst, sunstroke and tears. We see those of the great multitude elsewhere: Those who do not love their lives to the death 12:11, those have the testimony of Jesus Christ 12:17, those who have patience and faith 13:10, those who remain faithful to Jesus 14:12, those who die in the Lord 14:13, those who have the victory over the beast 15:2, those who are martyrs of Jesus 17:6.
So, what you are saying is that the GM are seen - in heaven - but then sent back on earth later to die. Seriously?
The GM do not die off through a series of catastrophes. In fact, the text doesn't say they die at all. They arrive in heaven - suddenly - all at once - and out of every nation of the world.
The saints seen thereafter are "Trib. Saints" who put faith in Christ AFTER the rapture - and are only seen "under the alter" after they die.
The Greek for "come out" = a present continuous action = are coming out, are in the process of coming out of the GT. The GM come to heaven individually by being martyred. John sees them at the end. (Revelation is made up of thematic visions.) They are clothed with white robes v.9 as the martyrs in 6:11. These martyrs are told to "rest a little while longer until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who would be killed as they were was completed." These appear in ch 7.
ROBINHOOD, you should see the next verse, Dan. 9 verse 27, it says that the messiah will be cut off in the middle ( midst ) of the week. Jesus was on the cross the day before the passover. HE was the Passover lamb. It was preperation day to the "special" or "high" sabbath, which is passover. it is not the normal sabbath. The day before the thursday passover is wednesday, preperation day, when the Lamb of GOD was prepared for the sacrifice. Wednesday is the middle of the week. It's very simple.
Dan 9:26 does refer to the true Messiah - But then says, "after threescore and 2 wks shall Messiah be cut off." So this clearly does not occur during the 70th wk.
Then vs 27 speaks of the "PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME" who make desolate the Temple - this being Rome who did this in 70 A.D.
The one who "confirms the covenant for 1 wk" is the ANTICHRIST as that prince from that same Roman empire.
To confuse the true Messiah with Antichrist is scary!
the pass over is not a sabbath, this position is extra biblical. the 15th of Nissan was a Sabbath and the 21st was a Sabbath. the 20th and the 14th which was the passover were preparation day for the Sabbath that followed. the high sabbath was never and could never be the passover, this is also extra biblical. Lev. 23 is very specific as to what is a Sabbath. To assume anything else is man´s construct. not biblical.
@CREDITS4CARBON i also agree that jesus died in te mids of the week. this was literal and profetical. Jesus died on a Wednesday and was placed in the tomb after sunset. my video explains all of this.
this is also the only way to get 3 days and 3 night. common sense would tell us this but God place it beyond a shadow of a bout because he knew that we would forget how to count to 3 like Mr. Rood said.
A word search of Strongs # "2064" & "came" brings up more than 198 occurrences of it in the KJV-NT. Most are undeniably past tense and not a process.
If these were arriving to heaven via a natural series of deaths - John would not have been puzzled nor astonished.
Also, in order to believe it the way you propose, a person has to be willing to take the prophecies of Rev out of context and out of chronological order - which could dangerously lead to breaching the warning given in Rev 22:18-19.
ROBINHOODSARROW 2 years ago
Yehoshua's ministry cannot possibly be midway into the 70th week -- Dan 9:26 says He is "cut off" right after the 69th week is completed. The words "It is Finished" was the cut-off point. The torn curtain said it all - that Israel is cut off AT THAT POINT.
The 70th week is yet future - Rev 7 shows God resuming the clock with Israel at the sealing of the 144,000. The Church appears in heaven as the GREAT MULTITUDE immediately after that -- when the "Time of Gentiles is fulfilled" - Rm 11:25
ROBINHOODSARROW 2 years ago
If you concede that the Great Multitude in Rev 7 is the Church, then this would have to mean you believe the Church will be present in the great tribulation. John is told of the answer to where the great multitude came from v.13. He is told they came out of the great tribulation, v.14. They had been in the tribulation experiencing hunger, thirst and the scorching sun, v.16, as well as being driven to tears, v.17.
arovir 2 years ago
The words "taken out of" could just as easily mean they are removed just as the Great Tribulation commences.
The last verse of Rev 6 declares the wrath of God about to commence. This embarks the sealing of 144k Jews and the removal of the Church all at that commencement of God's wrath. The Church is promised to have tribulations - but not appointed to God's wrath.
ROBINHOODSARROW 2 years ago
The words "taken out of" do not appear in Rev 7. Verse 13-14 says: Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from? And I said to him, Sir, you know. So he said to me, These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation..." This does not imply they are removed just as the GT commences. The elder answers his own question as to where they came from. Answer: the great tribulation with hunger, thirst, sunstroke and tears.
arovir 2 years ago 2
"Come out of" / "taken out of" either way shows them removed from GT just as it commences.
Proof of that is in the context. The only event occurring between the announcement of God's wrath and the Great Mult. is the sealing of 144k Jews to embark Daniel's 70th week -- and, more importantly, the trumpet or bowl events -- God's wrath -- do not occur until after the Great Mult. have arrived in heaven.
ROBINHOODSARROW 2 years ago
The question in v.13 is: "where did they come from?" The answer in v.14 is "the GT". They were in it experiencing hunger, thirst, sunstroke and tears. We see those of the great multitude elsewhere: Those who do not love their lives to the death 12:11, those have the testimony of Jesus Christ 12:17, those who have patience and faith 13:10, those who remain faithful to Jesus 14:12, those who die in the Lord 14:13, those who have the victory over the beast 15:2, those who are martyrs of Jesus 17:6.
arovir 2 years ago
So, what you are saying is that the GM are seen - in heaven - but then sent back on earth later to die. Seriously?
The GM do not die off through a series of catastrophes. In fact, the text doesn't say they die at all. They arrive in heaven - suddenly - all at once - and out of every nation of the world.
The saints seen thereafter are "Trib. Saints" who put faith in Christ AFTER the rapture - and are only seen "under the alter" after they die.
First comes the wheat harvest - then gleanings.
ROBINHOODSARROW 2 years ago
The Greek for "come out" = a present continuous action = are coming out, are in the process of coming out of the GT. The GM come to heaven individually by being martyred. John sees them at the end. (Revelation is made up of thematic visions.) They are clothed with white robes v.9 as the martyrs in 6:11. These martyrs are told to "rest a little while longer until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who would be killed as they were was completed." These appear in ch 7.
arovir 2 years ago
ROBINHOOD, you should see the next verse, Dan. 9 verse 27, it says that the messiah will be cut off in the middle ( midst ) of the week. Jesus was on the cross the day before the passover. HE was the Passover lamb. It was preperation day to the "special" or "high" sabbath, which is passover. it is not the normal sabbath. The day before the thursday passover is wednesday, preperation day, when the Lamb of GOD was prepared for the sacrifice. Wednesday is the middle of the week. It's very simple.
CREDITS4CARBON 2 years ago
I do not dispute the High Sabbath.
Dan 9:26 does refer to the true Messiah - But then says, "after threescore and 2 wks shall Messiah be cut off." So this clearly does not occur during the 70th wk.
Then vs 27 speaks of the "PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME" who make desolate the Temple - this being Rome who did this in 70 A.D.
The one who "confirms the covenant for 1 wk" is the ANTICHRIST as that prince from that same Roman empire.
To confuse the true Messiah with Antichrist is scary!
ROBINHOODSARROW 2 years ago
@CREDITS4CARBON peace be to you.
the pass over is not a sabbath, this position is extra biblical. the 15th of Nissan was a Sabbath and the 21st was a Sabbath. the 20th and the 14th which was the passover were preparation day for the Sabbath that followed. the high sabbath was never and could never be the passover, this is also extra biblical. Lev. 23 is very specific as to what is a Sabbath. To assume anything else is man´s construct. not biblical.
folder505 5 months ago
@CREDITS4CARBON i also agree that jesus died in te mids of the week. this was literal and profetical. Jesus died on a Wednesday and was placed in the tomb after sunset. my video explains all of this.
this is also the only way to get 3 days and 3 night. common sense would tell us this but God place it beyond a shadow of a bout because he knew that we would forget how to count to 3 like Mr. Rood said.
folder505 5 months ago