Re: Mickey Mouse Monopoly: Disney, Childhood & Corporate Power

[sympthylost]

Now for all the morons who think kids are stupid and don't notice they are being misrepresented or not represented--consider how big a deal it was to millions of young black girls that Princess Tiana finally existed. Kids notice. It may be subtle, they may not understand it, they may not dwell on it and it might just slip into their subconcious. Kids will identify with whomever looks the most like them. if your representation is poor you better believe your self-esteem will suffer in some way.

[sympthylost]

I wanted to really agree with you, but I you're definitely nitpicking on the appearance of Aladdin. For starters, Paula Abdul (as her name also implies) IS Arab. That aside, the fact that you didn't know that proves that race is a very subjective thing. After all, most Arabs are considered "caucasian" by the American census . So you're 'tanned white people' argument is poor. But realistically if they drew them with exaggerated features, that would be MUCH worse. I.e. JAFAR.

[sympthylost]

@sympthylost Funny that the exagerated characteristics are always saved for the villians....

[peacelf]

@sympthylost and the swords, dark countenances and "evil" intentions, etc.

[peacelf]

@sympthylost Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment. I may not teach professionally anymore, but I still like to engage in a dialectic dialogue.

[peacelf]

@sympthylost I understand Paula Abdul is Arabic, but the Princess looks and acts like an American teenager, and plays the part of the "Good Guys." It's easy to think that I'm reaching in my criticisms, but subtle racism is our worst enemy, because it works to mask wrongs by being slight enough for someone to possibly argue that the characterization is not a stereotype or racist. As a former teacher in an all black central city school, my students notice those stereotypes.

[peacelf]

@peacelf Cont. I might not have noticed so much if it wasn't for listening to voices of Others, people who are different from me.

[sympthylost]

@peacelf I see a bit more of your point. No, they didn't attribute the mannerisms of actual Muslims from the Middle East at the time and gave them a white American personality. What I'm trying to say is it is often better they don't try "too hard". The reality is, Muslims/Arabs didn't write this movie, and Arab didn't even write the legend Aladdin is based on. When they to be "accurate" it ends up like, say, Mulan. Exaggerated and still offensive. The middle ground is hard to find.

[sympthylost]

@sympthylost Btw, I am black and I am by no means being an apologist for Disney. But what I'm trying to say is the people making Disney aren't Arab/Muslim and I am not expecting them to project any other race/cultue accurately. What I do hope for and expect is respect and nothing overly stereotypical/blatantly offensive. It's either you're represented or you're not. Perhaps what Disney needed is a more diverse group of animators/story writers.

[peacelf]

@sympthylost I've met many blacks who don't understand my criticisms, either. White supremacy has that much power over people. Disney may need diversity, but they are in the culture biz, making and preserving existing structures, so they can profit from the system. Nothing secret about that. Until we all take a good hard look at what we find entertaining and popular, subtle and not so subtle racism will continue. Some tell me I suffer from "white guilt." I suffer from accute empathy.

[peacelf]

@sympthylost I've met many people who defend Disney as if it were family because the corporation has so penetrated our lives and culture. Disney is not interested in anything resembling a middle ground. They seek to entertain and also preserve a culture, values and pov that benefits Disney's bottom line. It's all about the Benjamins.

[genjikaka]

The flaw with this theory is that children are unable to view the world in such a negative way, as Disney portrays it. The content of Disney questions me, but it never really influenced me to act out as a racist, sexist, dominant male. Its mostly the additional explict content that kids die to watch, but don't understand the difference between portraying and acting out, or often times, reality or fantasy . There would be no point in defending Disney at this point, due to the subliminality.

[peacelf]

@genjikaka These negative stereotypes persist in all media, so the "lessons" children learn are subliminal, but can be changed by teaching them to think critically about gender, race, Disney, etc.. There are ways to do this as early as Kindergarten, with the right approach. I pick on Disney here, because they're one of the worse culprits perpetuating racist and sexist stereotypes.

[Diefett]

An idea popped into my head also. Don't think I'm being hateful or anything.

If the Arabs are not supposed to have physical features that identify them, and they are not supposed to look like Americans then how are they supposed to be presented?

[peacelf]

When you talk to me about empathy and caring about people who are not (like you), then please ask away. Otherwise, I honestly don't think you get it.

peace

[Diefett]

From our discussion you don't think I have empathy?

To tell the truth I stumbled upon these anti-Disney videos and thought it would be fun to defend them.

[peacelf]

From our discussion, you have only defended your pov. I have only defended the pov of Arabs, blacks, etc. This is not a contest, but I don't hear you at least recognizing that there are other opinions, particularly those of the Anti-Defamation League, Women's groups, among others, that has cited Disney's racism on many occasions. Most people do not consider Others pov's, so it was more a question and observation than an outright accusation that you lack empathy.

[Diefett]

See that is more clear.

I take it you are not a Carlos Mencia fan. 

I realize that there are those opinions and do respect them, but in my discussions I don't try to waltz around them to get my point across. Let's face it that would take a lot of writing and with the limited character count and how the comments are set up, it would be even more confusing.

[Diefett]

LoL

So Arabic people don't look like evil monsters, but the good Arabic people in the movies look like Americans.

Evil people, no mater what race, gender, or whatever always have exaggerated features that look evil in cartoons. Arabs don't have many cartoons I would think, but you can bet the ones with evil characters have exaggerated features.

You can see it in more easily found cartoons from other cultures as well. It's not a tool for racism, it's a tool to help differentiate evil from good.

[Diefett]

Sorry messed up that first line.

[Diefett]

Now when I wrote that I of course meant the villians of the films, not of the background characters. When I watched Aladdin I didn't notice people who were not thieves or villians as being exagerated, so I do need to look at it again.

[peacelf]

Thanks for the comments. So, now, you want to stereotype ugly people. I think you miss the point. Arab people are offended by the images, just as African Americans were offended when they were depicted with large white lips, huge noses and giant white bloodshot eyes. If you are white, you probably won't find racist depictions of Arabs, blacks, Jews, etc. offensive, since you are not in that group. It requires empathy for Others.

[Diefett]

Instead of evil, you say ugly?

I don't know exactly what your argument is implying here.

Yes we stereotype evil people by exagerating features, but we don't limit good people to perfect looks. Evil is easier to identify through the exagerated features

Now don't think I mean that everyday Arabs are evil.

I believe that was what my argument was about though, I was talking about villians rather than everyday people.

[Diefett]

Now if you think that I would be offended to find a white man who is a villian in a cartoon from another country or culture. I have watched films like that to find that I most likely do not.

Like I said in a previous post I would have to look at the movie again to consider how the every day people are displayed, but I would judge their actions as much as their looks also.

[TomPreston6]

So... movies made in America, regardless of what their subject matter is, should not reflect American tastes?

Have you ever noticed that Asian movies tend to have alot of Asian influences in them?

All I'm saying is that the movies are made for Americans first and foremost with our "standards" of beauty and appeal. If you're gonna blame Disney, you better be prepared to blame all other media conglomerates and outlets as well.

[peacelf]

Tom, there's an area of academic study called Cultural Studies that one applies as a critical examination of the Humanities, film, books, history, etc. Most people look at culture uncritically, seeing it as a fixed set of values and norms when culture is any but fixed. Culture is manufactured, and viewing culture uncritically sometimes traps people in roles and expectations that do not serve their best interests, like racist and sexist stereotypes. Disney is loaded with them.

[TomPreston6]

I just think it's unfair to simply blame Disney for it all, when Disney cartoons themselves are influenced substantially by the world around them. Especially with cartoons produced before and during WWII.

The best sign of character is that despite the shortcomings of the past, they are at least trying to make ammends for the future.

And what about Warner Bros? Alot of their cartoons are just downright offensive by today's standards. Yet no one complains about THEM...

[peacelf]

I can show you many critiques of movies from all genres and companies. Cultural studies professors don't just pick on Disney, though Disney deserves much criticism because it gears its movies and programming toward children, who are most vulnerable to these images and influences.

Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, Little Mermaid, are loaded with stereotypes.

[TomPreston6]

ALL cartoons have stereotypes. In fact, cartoons may be the only form of media in which stereotypes are much more universally accepted. (not that that means it's ok or anything).

Look at Apu from The Simpsons. Indian guy working at a convenience store. That's a pretty bad stereotype, but what redeems it is that over time he develops a personality.

You don't have that sort of freedom in animated movies, and they are generally used to establish "this guy good" or "this guy bad" quickly.

[TomPreston6]

And another thing... I grew up on Disney yet I didn't turn our racist or have negative views of other cultures. I love "Aladdin", it's one of my favorite movies growing up, yet I NEVER thought that Arabic people looked or acted like the characters in the cartoon. EVER. I knew the difference between reality and cartoon, and I think alot of kids do too. Kids are alot smarter than adults give them credit for.

And if you don't like the movie, Don't let your kids watch it, or have a discussion after

[peacelf]

Tom, thanks for those insightful comments.

I appreciate your ability to discern fiction from reality. However, many people still have a long way to go to understand how their racist/sexist behavior harms women and people of color. If Disney and others neutralize race and gender stereotypes by saying "it's all in fun," then we have not achieved the goal of genuine equality that our multicultural society needs to function at its democratic best.

[TomPreston6]

I think it's probably just better to look at it on a case by case basis and not as a whole. cartoons in america are really frowned upon by the general public. Alot of cartoons are made with teenagers and adults in mind, but as a collective whole are see to be only suitable for children, which is not right.

Look at those old "red hot riding hood" cartoons by Tex Avery for example. Not meant for kids, yet where do they appear? When I was little it was with my Saturday morning block.

[TomPreston6]

Let's take dumbo as an example. The crows are, quite obviously, a stereotype of black people. That should be negative, but they are in fact the ones who HELP dumbo achieve his dream. They're the only ones who accepted him for who he is. They're good. Which is really a positive thing because segregation, at the time, was still around.

As a kid I never thought they were black stereotypes because black people that I knew never acted like that. It never crossed my mind.

[tintinbofin]

That depends on a kid's socialization and on the formation of their consciousness by the perspectives that they are exposed to. But what about those people who do not have the same kind of faculties that we have - people, for instance, who weren't exposed to alternative perspectives because they weren't interested in or did not simply have the chance to learn an alternative discourse?

[tintinbofin]

Still for TomPreston6:

While I grew up watching cartoons of all kinds, I can say that I did not turn out to be an uncritical, unquestioning individual because I formed my politics in college, and began to internalize it so much so that up to now, I find myself processing the images, the insinuations on every show, movie, documentary, advertisement, and photo I see, and every piece of literature I read...

[tintinbofin]

...It is difficult because it prohibits raw enjoyment of almost everything, but I take comfort and pride in the fact that I have not become passive and uncritical. But that is not the status quo. We are not the status quo. And this is why corporations that create and replicate images (like Disney) is dangerous.

[sympthylost]

@TomPreston6 That's because Harry Potter is awesome.

[seance13]

evil people look evil, and good people look young and sexy.

[brokennarcissist]

duh

[seance13]

lol, I don't even remember posting this. perhaps I was drunk...

[joshsowords]

I recommend you take 'How to Read Donald Duck: Imperialist ideology in the Disney Comic' by Dorfman & Mattelart (banned in the US, you should be able to a copy through anarchy press).

I find it to be a more robust deconstruction of Disney as its not as concerned with identity politics (racism, ageism, etc...) as it is a deconstruction of the entire Disney project.

[rebirthangel]

I'm not against forigners, but I do that if you are one, and come to texas, you will be praised, and unquestioned. Heck, in a resume my brother red, white people are reffered to as, "Other". Now try and tell me that what you just read was perfectly normal.

[rebirthangel]

While I do agree with some points the actuall documentary made, I highly disagree with what you said on 03:01 - 03:37.

The world isn't dominaited by almost every white person, in fact it's supprising to know that a few white people such as my brother has a hard time getting a job. The jobs he looked for were taking in by forigners who didn't respect the work ethics of our job system.

[peacelf]

rebirth, and who do you blame for your brother's woes? the people who took the low paying jobs or the people that hire low wage workers? I blame corporations that look for cheap labor, and I don't blame anyone for wanting to come to america for a better life. My ancestors came here for that reason. As for white patriarchy, just look at those in power. they are predominately white and male. I am just calling for a better democracy.

peace

[LliasiAsbi]

"These things are not as harmless as we think they are"

I agree completely. Our eurocentric patriarchal society is uncomfortable with acknowledging diversity. It would be far easier if we were exposed more to different cultures and appearances via mass media, especially to benefit at a young age during a time when parents dont read to their children but hand them a remote. What has bothered me as of late is the garbage by which teenagers are enthralled. What is happening?

[peacelf]

Unforunately, young people are not taught to think critically. Traditional education serves corporate interests rather than citizenship or democratic interests, thus kids are taught to see reading as for functional and utilitarian purposes only, rather than enlightening and empowering. Of course, teachers do not learn to teach these skills either.

[LliasiAsbi]

Ah that is a good way to put it. I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was I had noticed. Since they DO teach children to read, it is assumed that children NOT reading is the fault of the child or the parent; it is written off as a learning disability or simple disinterest. I see teachers trying to encourage it, but it is fairly ineffective. For the teachers who really do care, what would you suggest they do differently? For sure they could be more creative in their methods..

[peacelf]

Lliasi, thanks for your intelligent comments and questions. It's a rare thing on Youtube. I think young children should be taught to love books and explore things THEY are interested in. Actually, I think everyone should follow their natural curiosity thorughout their lives. But, in a Emelio Reggio school, the child is the center of learning. teachers watch what the children play with and observe and encourage them to "research" more info. Like if a child sees a rainbow in the garden hose.

[peacelf]

cont 2. The child finds other ways to make rainbows, maybe looks at a prism or glass, exploring new things. My spouse teaches kindergarten. Every Oct they take the left over pumpkin, seal it in an aquarium and let it rot for months. The kids watch the process and write about it in journals. There are 1000's of things like this to get kids thinking, besides their ABC's. The natural world is full of surprises and learning opportunities, if teachers would put down the texts a minute.

[LliasiAsbi]

I recall doing a lot of neat things when I was in elementary school; it was junior high that killed my learning buzz. I guess that is about time they begin the conditioning for work training, right?

In response to most of the comments here, people underestimate children, and it is very irritating to me.

[peacelf]

lliasi, I totally agree. Did you see my video Education Killed Curiosity? This is one of my older videos and I was not very coherent.  I tried to clear up some of my points in later videos.

thanks again for commenting.

peace

[LliasiAsbi]

Yes! I love your videos. I'm in high school now, I am constantly getting in trouble for responding to teachers intellectually. I refuse to assuage their egos at all. I recently had to dumb down an essay I wrote in order to receive a better grade. It is very frustrating and I feel alienated because everyone around me at school is so.. I don't even know how to say it. Uncultured? Ignorant? Materialistic? Submissive? Its fucking insanity and it terrifies me, to be perfectly honest.

[LliasiAsbi]

...but no one will address this with me which is why I am so overly-thrilled with your videos. I bring up my concerns and the only response I get is that these concerns are "normal" but its "just the way it is". You are definitely the first person I have interacted with who has openly addressed the issues some people don't even see as issues!

I feel 30 in a teen body and I don't understand why young adults at a high school level have the mentality I did when I was 10. Something is wrong here.

[reddeath26]

I can not really understand how it would feel to be in an environment like that at high school/college. I was lucky enough to go to a high school/college where teachers encouraged students to critically evaluate.

As for the Video you are commenting on I recently came accross that in "Society, environment and place" a level 100 human geography paper. I found it to be quite an interesting video. I was quite pleased to note your response to it was what I believe to be accurate.

[peacelf]

Lliasi, my advice is to continue engaging teachers with your own thoughts and criticisms. However, remember they are a product of the system they work in, so they do not understand what they do. In a sense, they haven't been freed from the Matrix and they likely won't want to be. So, what you do is for the edification and enlightenment of your fellow classmates. Don't be angry if the don't "get it." You can plant seeds of discontent that may lay dormant for a while before they bloom.

[peacelf]

cont Lliasi, do not feel discoutraged or disallusioned. Having grasped so much at a young age is a gift. I was much older when I "got it." The danger in having so much knowledge so early is becoming cynical. If you work on having love, compassion, a strong passionate sense of justice, you will build hope for change within your own mind and others. Be patient. It will happen. My former students come up to me all the time and tell me how I was their fav teacher because they learned so much.

[LliasiAsbi]

OH I didn't mean to sound snobby. I have no contempt. I really like my peers, but I don't know how to feel about them. I'm not cynical, I don't like that sort of attitude. I don't feel above the students, actually I envy their carelessness. But I believe they have so much potential and it is being wasted. I just think about how 17 was considered well into adulthood at one point, but now nothing is expected of teenagers. I guess its only fair, though, considering average life-span is increasing.

[LliasiAsbi]

I do have one very good teacher but she is 65 and may soon retire. She tells her students things such as we should sue the school for destroying our ability to write. A lot of the students are surprised and uncomfortable with the things she says. Strange.

My other teachers I think are very intelligent, but they do not teach well. So as you said, it must be the way they're trained.

Could you make a video about what they specifically tell teachers to do? Methods that could be damaging to students?

[peacelf]

That's a good idea for a video. Mostly, traditional education, with it's structured chapters and questions leave little to the imagination and curiosity. In a progressive school, students are taught to research answers to the questions they themselves formulate. Following your own interests is key. For example, if a student was interested in Tupac, she might learn that Tupac talked about S. Africa and apartheid in his rap. They could look at the history of human and civil rights.

[peacelf]

I'm happy to gear that you're not cynical. It can be very frustrating for a young person knowing what you know. You can feel isolated and alone, but you're not. Youtube is the perfect way to reach others like yourself, even if theyre older or younger.

Web Pundit is a perfect example of cynicism. He uses his anger to make demeaning comments about people he disagrees with. I criticized him a couple months ago, and he didn't take it too well: )

peace

[wasy35]

people are so on the surface...they wouldn't know if a sheep in wolves clothing was about to eat their children, hell they'd probably let it happen...tom robbins, i looked him up, interesting...subversive i like that...

[Fuerzatriplea]

poor guy he is getting attacked by u guys because he critisizes Disney

[peacelf]

That's because they've made the wrong things sacred: )

What about peace, democracy, love, compassion, JUSTICE, and hope...No, Disney!

ARRRGGGHHH!

[2003JL]

I see what the vid was talking about. As a fan of animation, Disney has made visually stunning work. However, the stereotypes are rampant in their films. Plagarism is also, THE LION KING was a rip off of "KIMBA THE WHITE LION", a 1960's japanese anime created by Osamu Tezuka.

[peacelf]

2003, i do believe you're the first one to "get it." Attacking Disney is like attacking religion, the secular fundamentalists get very uptight about their sacred institutions: )

peace

[SenilIonia]

Well, not everyone that is unsettled by these opinions could be called a fundamentalist. I'm a fan of several Disney movies myself, and I just happen to think there are bigger problems out there that are worth tackling. Anorexic models being marketed as beautiful, for example. Or religion, as you mentioned - what about telling our children that people that believe differently than you are going to burn for eternity and that it's their job to ensure that those souls are saved? cont.

[SenilIonia]

cont. 2 These exert overt influences on our children rather than relying upon the supposed subtleties inherent in Disney movies.

You see, 7 year olds don't see in Disney what educational theorists and college professors (sporting earrings, I noticed - awesome) get out of them. They see a pretty woman falling in love with a handsome man. And, I hate to break it to you, but this has been the trend of fairy tales for thousands of years in every culture.

[SenilIonia]

And as I said in a comment on the other video, of course the characters in Disney's movies are white. Of course there are racial (not racIST. There's a difference, as racism implies a sense of superiority) stereotypes. Have you ever seen the "American" characters in Japanese cartoons?

[SenilIonia]

Several of the Disney movies that I can think of, particularly the earlier ones, are at least partially based in European fairy tales. Now why wouldn't the characters be white?

As for the bit about Jasmine and Aladdin's noses, that's just people looking for someone to complain about. If their noses were smaller, people would moan and whine about them looking too much like white teenagers with tans. Oh... wait a minute....

[peacelf]

Senillonia, Giroux and others do not particularly criticize Disney's early stuff. However, in this enlightened age, you'd think that Disney could be a bit more sensitive to "others" yet thaey haven't.

[peacelf]

Senil, "7 year olds don't see in Disney..." Yes, 7 yr old children do see and they learn stereotypes from movies and media, including body images for women, as you mention. Programs like Sesame St. though have made a conscientious effort to be all inclusive and understanding of others. It can be done and it can be entertaining! However, in the corporate media, it is WHAT SELLS, not what's right that matters.

peace

[LliasiAsbi]

Indeed the digitally altered humans passed off as the only and ideal beauty is harmful. As it is, any form of media can be inadvertently harmful if not presented in a controlled environment [i.e. good parenting]

[GobbleMan1234]

The "Disney Message" What fucking message are you talking about exactly? What those people are doing in that video are turning something good, into something bad. You're adults, act like adults. And if that is a professor in that video, actually commenting on these films...that's sad. Both videos, are based on bordem.

[peacelf]

Hey there young feller, I'm sorry if I offended you. This video treads on your common sensiblities, on things you thought sacred, so you get angry. Understandable. I am an educational theorist, like the professor in the video, and we criticize all TV, movies, news, etc. looking for underlying messages that those movies send. cont.

[GobbleMan1234]

I think you and many other nit pickers of Disney are being foolish. Why in the hell is a 3 year old going to care if there is a black person, or an Asian person in a disney movie? And answer me why the hell grown men such as yourself, are talking about animation films? Disney is not racist, I don't know how you could say that. Hercules - Muses(black). Mulan, self explanitory. Cinderalla - The coach driving the pumpkin was indeed BLACK.

[peacelf]

cont 2. Those messages we're talking about are how Disney seems innocent, but is appealing to mostly white people's ideas of life and culture. That's why it's considered racist. You bring up some good questions, though. But, I would guess you're a white male, so this is difficult to understand. Google "cultural criticism" for more information. Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

peace

[ranaadnanm]

And plus another things...parents are the one responsible for how children grow up, not disney, they should take responsibility too. btw Paula Abdul isn't white!

[peacelf]

cont. Disney is just an example of many movies that thrive on racism and sexism to sustain their "image" as a innocent form of fantasy. White people don't notice these them because it doesn't affect them.

peace

[ranaadnanm]

The stuff you're talking about is actually harmless. Children don't notice any so called messages, unless people "the politically correct ones" make them believe that these so called negative things exist.

[peacelf]

Only a white person would think they're harmless.

Disney is the only purveyor of racist and sexist images. It's the media at large, but most white parents are not aware of white patriarchal supremacy and the messages that reinforce hat supremacy, are not going to even know those messages are there.

peace

[LliasiAsbi]

I wouldn't try to force incredibly complex ideas into my child, but think about it.. How about while Watching Beauty and the Beast you can say some small offhand comment like "See honey? This movie is fun but remember if a man ever behaves like the Beast, don't try to change him. Always remember life isn't exactly like fairy tales"

Those sort of things stick with a kid, and should the child grow up to one day find herself..

[LliasiAsbi]

..in an abusive relationship, she will have this notion in mind to guide her decision. Another example could be reminding the child that the characters are not like real people and they don't have organs and blood, which is why they look so thin and blemish-free. Judging by our current youth, it is very difficult for them to discern fact from fiction. Learning to critique fictional scenarios and people is not as natural as you might think.

[peacelf]

When children are young, I would do as you suggest, but as they mature, teach them about the images that are protrayed in movies, TV, music, etc. I taught my children all this stuff. My youngest daughter rarely talked to me about politics, sexism, racism, etc, but i would find a paper she wrote on Jean Kilbourne's Killing Me Softly, a critique of female sexual images in the media and violence against women. My daughter got it by osmosis. I talk about this stuff all the time. She got it!

[greenlikegecko]

you cant take away peoples freedom of speech not even to try and stop racism, if you look up black and white in dictionary you will see colours themselfs can be racist if you look hard enough you can find anything tho...

[greenlikegecko]

black

• adjective 1 of the very darkest colour owing to the absence of or complete absorption of light. 2 deeply stained with dirt. 3 (of coffee or tea) served without milk. 4 relating to a human group having dark-coloured skin, especially of African or Australian Aboriginal ancestry. 5 characterized by tragedy, disaster, or despair. 6 (of humour) presenting tragic or harrowing situations in comic terms. 7 full of anger or hatred.

[greenlikegecko]

white

• adjective 1 of the colour of milk or fresh snow, due to the reflection of all visible rays of light. 2 very pale. 3 relating to a human group having light-coloured skin, especially of European ancestry. 4 morally or spiritually pure. 5 Brit. (of coffee or tea) served with milk or cream. 6 (of food such as bread or rice) light in colour through having been refined. 7 (of wine) made from white grapes, or dark grapes with the skins removed, and having a yellowish colour.

[peacelf]

green, cont. Moreover, I don't take popular stances, justr because they're popular. I look at the world through the eyes of "others," so I can promote compassion and justice, which is not very popular these days.

[greenlikegecko]

i was meaning with black and white you can find racism anywhere if you look hard enough but why spend time looking why not just spread a message of love and compassion regardlessly even racist people are people

[peacelf]

green, I am all for the peace and love message, but I am anti-racist, anti-sexist. I want to stand up for my african american brothers and sisters, and for women's rights, in a society that treats many groups unfairly. I would be a hypocrite if I didn't express my peace and love message through justice and hope.

peace

[peacelf]

green, white people wrote the dictionary: ) Seriously, only a white person would make that argument. In a white supremacist society, everything confirms our whiteness. The critique is to get you to look at Disney from a woman's or African American's, or an Arab's perspective. If "others" find it offensive, shouldn't we white people ask "why"?

[narthulua]

Peaceelf,

You say a lot "I heard that this or that"...

This is completly opinon based, so stop spoiling these classics. I get feelings of happiness when I watch a Disney film, not repressed thoughts of abuse, ingrained racism or any other feeiings that I should feel from these lovely stories according to rhis theory.

[peacelf]

narthulua, I detect sarcasm in this statement. based on your other comments, Am I correct?

[tonton42]

Wait, Did you know that they are making a movie with a african American "princess" something called the princess and the frog or the frog princess? It's scheduled for release in 2009 and I have personally seen some of the concept art (quite beautiful too)

[peacelf]

tonton, No, I haven't heard. But it would be a first for disney.

[tinchick2]

(cont)So why assume that a child is receiving such a negative message, such as to stay with an abusive significant other? I just think that we either don't give children enough credit to understand that Disney is not like real life or we give them too much credit for being able to think like mini adults.

[peacelf]

cont 2- Moreover, if you listen to me, I'll radicalize your teaching, and you'll end up like me, quitting in the prime of my career because the system is too stifling.

Hey, but what do I know?

peace

[tinchick2]

(cont)A child who has the capacity to think of a Disney movie like Beauty and the Beast in terms of an abusive relationship and that it doesn't end all happy in real life, should discuss it with others, like parents, in those terms. However, many of the children who watch these videos are not able to process thoughts in this manner. They see the classic story of overlooking outward appearances.

[peacelf]

tin, I don't want to sound like a geezer, but I've raised three children, my youngest your age, and taugh high school for 13 years in the central city. What I've seen is that we sometimes underestimate what young people/children know and learn. You're right, we have to encourage positive behavior, as as you will learn in teacher ed, if you already don't know, that the message must be age appropriate. And, we certainly don't want to disable their sense of imagination and wonder. cont.

[narthulua]

Absolutly.

[tinchick2]

Yes, I do think that the video serves to critique culture (specifically Disney) and that is all well and good. Culture should be critiqued every so often to see where a society (as a whole) stands on issues. And I do think that it is ridiculous and irresponsible what Eisner stated in that quote. Disney, as a creator of children's movies, should be responsible for what messages that they set forth in their movies. Yet, I feel that people typically want to be overly-critical of culture.

[tinchick2]

(cont)Especially with children, the parents should be the ones teaching them about respect and to not think in terms of the "isms", not Disney. (If it is, then there is something else wrong with our country) Granted, I will never know what it is like to be a minority in race, but I still think that my point is valid.

I would love to have a deeper discussion about this. If you have a forum for it, let me know.

[peacelf]

Cont. 4 Combined with other cultural referents that invite the same response, and you have a culture of tolerance of abuse.

I am an old school feminist sympathizer. You seem like a neo-feminist. Great. Now, I am all for the self-esteem movement. Mothers teach your daughters well. This video is for mothers, so they can critique culture (for which Disney does so well to blend in), critique Disney, and provide a lesson for the young, impressionable child. What do you think?

[tinchick2]

(cont)3: As a woman, I could play the gender card, as I call it, and complain about how Disney girls are portrayed: skinny with big breasts, small waists, nice hips, and perfect features....but I don't. It seems to me that regardless of how Disney or any other type of medium for that matter portrays people (esp women), a person should be secure enough with themselves to not let it affect them.

[peacelf]

cont. 3 Abusive relationships rarely, if ever, end happily ever after, yet the movie would like us to believe otherwise, which could have detrimental affects on young minds. We know that self esteem greatly contributes to women staying in abusive relationships. However, we don'tneed a movie for children that tells them to keep trying, your Prince Charming will eventually emerge. cont 4

[tinchick2]

(cont)2:Maybe this is just me but I saw and still see Belle as a strong, intelligent female who is able to see through a gruff (for lack of a better word) facade to a sweet person. She retains her intelligence and strong personality but is able to get the guy. It personally empowered me as a woman because I have a similar personality (some have said that I "come on strong") and that movie showed that I could be me and still get what I want and be happy.

[peacelf]

Cont 2 I agree with your analysis of Belle, she first appears as the strong female, intelligent, focused, but looking for love beyond the male chauvenist Gaston, who she finds obtuse, at best. We are pleased that she rejects his advances. However, then she is kidnapped by a "Beast" held captive against her will and starved, if she doesn't join Beast for dinner. Does she eventually tame him? Yes, but there is where the myth is confused with reality. cont 3

[tinchick2]

I was reading the comments and I have a few things to add. 1: Child Labor laws actually first came about when scientists began to realize that children are not just small adults but are a completely different entity. Just thought you'd like to know. Also, I believe that WallMart is being sued for not giving employees breaks when they are required, as well as what you stated.

[peacelf]

Tin, thank you for your very insightful comments and additions. As you know transmition of culture is largely through parents, first, then peers and media. My response and the Mickey mouse monopoly vid, obviously, are teaching us, parents or young people to deconstruct Disney's messages. When we do, we find they are laden with stereotypes that perpetuate attitutdes that lead to further oppression and/or discrimination of "Others" and women.

[rabbitcage19]

This just proves that people can find and make up "isms" every where they look. some people just need to get a life and grow up. and anyway these movies are meant for little kids and im sure they dont know what all the "isms" mean, and if they do im sure they didnt find out from a disney cartoon. as for all the adults that are trying to turn disney into a villain, I think its time to grow up and STOP watching cartoons.

[peacelf]

Rabbit, Only a white male would discount the "isms". The privileged class sees nothing wrong with the system that benefits them. Children who watch Disney movies are enculturated into the privileged class by images that devalue "others" and perpetuate positive images of white patriarchal power.

I believe in equality, so all I'm saying is Disney needs to be more sensitive, but why should they? Their a wealthy corporation that is interested only in profits.

[rabbitcage19]

As far as the Disney corporation goes it seems to me that these are nothing but lies out of jealousy. and if Disney was so worried about wealth wouldnt it be smarter for them to make movies for all these minoritys. It would be no differant then the presidential candidates doing what they do just to get votes.

[peacelf]

cont. Maybe you chose to ignore it because it would not benefit you to say something. Well, unless you're a member of the wealthy class, you're in the same boat as the rest of us. Because, it's a class war,and Disney perpetuates it by using racist and sexist stereotypes to keep us divided, fighting each other, or worse, ignoring each other.

[rabbitcage19]

It always seems funny to me how people only blame the white's for all the "isms" Mostly racism. Then I realize the white's dont look for the "isms" like others do. and you could say thats because we are the privileged class and we dont have much reason to, but the truth is we have alot of reasons; maybe we dont look just beacuse we dont like to cry about things that would not benefit life in anyway.

[peacelf]

Rabbit, so far you've made your opinions clear. Let's look at the facts: discrimination against people of color and women exists. Statistically, both groups earn less than white males. A black male college grad generally earns less than a white male with a hs diploma. Women earn 78% of men. Right now, Arab Americans are locked up in Guantanamo Bay as "suspected terrorists." Your privileged eyes chose to ignore it.

[rabbitcage19]

peacelf, sorry for the delay but anyway I agree, your statistics May be true but your facts are wrong. Just because those statistics show those numbers does not mean white males are discriminating on people of color or women. You can study every scenario you want; But in the end it all boils down to one simple fact. The only thing holding anyone back in life

is themselves............

[peacelf]

rabbit, are you familiar with the largest class action suit against any company before is now aginst WallMart. Wall has 70% women employees, yet they only promote 30% women to mgrmt. Not only that, but female mgrs were paid $1000's less than male mgrs. So much for pulling yourself up by your bootstrap! Women doing the exact same job as men, and paid less. Discrimination exists, and you want to blame the victim.

[rabbitcage19]

(continued)....If everyone spent half the time trying to do somthing with their lives as they do blaming others then maybe they would get somewhere in life. And if Disney is one of

the many corporations like the rap industry giving EVERYONE a bad seed all that means is, you DONT have to plant it. Hint: "just think about it."

[peacelf]

rabbit, if nobody said anything, w'd still have child labor, loww wages, long hours, unsafe working conditions. You must have no sense of history to understand that people fought for the rights and benefits YOU HAVE in the workplace. Those wages and benefits weren't handed over by generous corporations! peace

[peacelf]

rabbit, cont. And then you blame the rap industry, for what? doing exactly what you say they should be doing, going after the money!

In citing statistics and examples, i hope to show you that things are not all rosy and wonderful, unless you're a white male, and Disney pereptuates the problems with women and people of color by stereotyping them. Look at Belle in Beauty and the Beast. She is first a strong female, who is educated, then she falls in love with an abusive monster of a man.

[AndromedaMariaCarmen]

Jasmine looking like Paula Abdul? I never knew Princess Jasmine was bulimic!

[peacelf]

Funny. I think Randy played Jazmines father, and Simon Cowel was the evil advisor.