Soy Medico y no la voy a matar por tener un Trastorno por Ansiedad como lo hizo con el pobre perrito Que le hubieran hablado a Cesar o algun otro entrenador
u realy should show the other half of this argument cas u cant judge victoria without seeing the whole argument. in the second half wendy diamond apologises for the way she was to victoria and victoria showed how much of a better person she is adn accepted
Fuck, victoria is an annoying untalented fake, she doesn't know shit and she sucks at what she pretends to be an expert at.. example.." I follow the very best in this country.." what the fuck does that mean, oh yah,.. it means she does her best at imitating the EXPERTS, too bad if you are as fucking unskilled as her following the very best in this country while trying to implement the same techniques in real time only MAKES YOU SUCK WORSE, fucking slut. :)
Science isn't always right. Like the scientis in the UK that helped banned the use of e-collars. The people that did that test grabbed a couple of dogs and put e-collars on them with the power all the way up and shoked the shit out of those poor dogs. just to prove that the e-collars were bad. If you use a e-collar to cause pain on the dog your using it the wrong way. Victoria Stilwell is a joke. Just because she's on tv doesnt make her a good trainer.
@isototalerok Thats why he gets bitten all the time. Good trainers do not get bitten by the dogs they treat. CM only knows how to suppress symptoms, he doesn't know how to address the root cause of problematic behaviour....what the shows don't tell you is the high incidence of failure with the dogs after he left.
I'm not sure what order they came in but Wendy stopped to chat on the red carpet of the film opening sisterhood of the travelling pants 2 and fully admitted she WASN'T a dog trainer, so who is she to (1) be judging on this show and (2) tell not only Victoria Stilwell but the rest of the dog training fraternity in America they're ridiculous? Lol priceless
This is what is wrong with the US. Some random media-whore gets to go on TV and dismiss the overwhelming weight of science from a position of equal credibility to that of an actual expert. Then the media packages it up as some kind of cat-fight. I don't know how Stillwell kept her temper as well as she did. This was exactly like watching a global warming denier.
VICTORIA U R SUCH A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSER THE BIGGEST ONE OF ALL. CESAR MILLAN IS THE BEST. YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT TRAINING GIRL HAHAHHAHHA U R HILARIOUS WITH UR TACTICS EVEN MY DOG IS LAUGHING WITH U LOSER.
VICTORIA U R SUCH A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSER THE BIGGEST ONE OF ALL. CESAR MILLAN IS THE BEST. YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT TRAINING GIRL HAHAHHAHHA U R HILARIOUS WITH UR TACTICS EVEN MY DOG IS LAUGHING WITH U LOSER.
VICTORIA U R SUCH A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSER THE BIGGEST ONE OF ALL. CESAR MILLAN IS THE BEST. YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT TRAINING GIRL HAHAHHAHHA U R HILARIOUS WITH UR TACTICS EVEN MY DOG IS LAUGHING WITH U LOSER.
@hiheyhello10 Dominance theory and rank reduction aren't a method...they are a serious mistake and can have serious consequences. Watch a video of Dr David Mech (Highest authority on wolves in present day) state how even wild wolves do NOT live in dominance hierarchies....so if wolves don't, we are people applying this to dogs? Reward based training isn't just one method either. There's a whole range of methods can be classed as reward based training to fit ALL dogs.
I agree with the one who supported positive reinforcement. It is the only way and people who say it doesn't work need to meet my Lucy. She is the best behaved dog in the world and I have never yelled at or dominated her before in her life :D
@isototalerok You are correct, unfortunately too many people think "alpha" means dominate by force. They bully thier dogs without ever training them. They think dogs should acutomatically know how to be "human". Leaders are great teachers and protectors, bullies are dictators who "control" with fear and brutality, not lead .
I think there is an issue with peoples undestanding of "dominant" which we are educated to understand as being a negative term.
When Victoria talks of dominant she talks of bullying and violence, when cesar talks of dominant he means to be confidently in charge.
I "dominate" my dog but do not beat/starve etc her. I am just the boss, just like I am with my children. When they are naughty, they know they are in trouble and when they are good they know that too.
naughty for my partner and children. When they come in the house she jumps on them and is very hyper but she will not do the same to me. She will refuse to leave the room etc for my partner and kids but will go for me.
She doesnt do this because she is afraid, she does it because she knows that I am in charge, just like the other animals I work with (horses and livestock)
Dominate is not stilwells naive version, it is simply to take control.
All of you saying that Negatiive behavior training works faster then Positive are wrong because its not fixing the behavior it's just supressing it and eventually when all this supressed behavior builds up that dog could lash out with an aggressive response.
Wendy is 100% correct. We all don't wanna go with your way, Victoria! Wendy is right, he has his way, and she has her way, she needs to but out of business! You can't be all lovey dovey in training, you have to be like boot camp to them, and then they will listen! I hate people that baby their dogs. I HATE it.
@SWLHPro You're being ignorant. She doesn't "baby" dogs, she trains them only by rewarding them for positive behavior. That means there are no consequences for bad behavior, just rewards. This way works much better because it solves the dogs' problems, rather than suppressing them.
she doesn't say she's the best, but she knows what the best technique is. i've seen her shows and she observes the animals and gets down to the root of the problem which has a more lasting effect.
@fantomroyale I know, I've seen it too. At first it looked likej she was even better than the dog whisperer guy, but after watching both fshows for a while The dog whisperer guy is actually a much better trainer imo. Forgot his name.
She doesnt what she says when the US female trainer says you are not god of dog training...victoria says "yes I am, because I follow the very best in this country!" ?
I'd have to say the "its me or the dog" bitch is wrong. Negative reinforcement works just as well as positive but just works faster.
Negative reinforcement for behavior is good but not when you are training it. If a dog bites you for example, negative reinforcement is natural in Wolves. But when you want it to do a trick you don't force it to do it.You don't want the dog to be scared of you, you want it to actually like you and want to do the tricks or whatever it is.
Lol she says dominant/submissive training is medieval, but did she ever see herself on tv? She's dressed and acts like an sm mistress! She's like the dominator of dominance!
go to hell victoria! if you followed the best in the industry, you would understand that positive training doesnt work with all dogs. cesar milan and other dog psychologists do not use "medieval" methods of training. do your research.
you know cesar have class this woman dont have any....
you can see the face of the dog owner? is like wtf...haha.
Cesar regardless the continues attack from this kind of people still is the number one dog behaviourist ...so VS please take a vicodin or something and comeback to teach "postive training" when your enrgy is calm and assertive :D
The other woman did not begin the argument. Victoria overstepped her boundaries. She did not have to begin an argument, and she is NOT the God of dog training. I would love to see her work with a wolf or wolf hybrid - as Cesar has; then I will become impressed. Until then, I have not seen her as the cause of any dog being rehabilitated so that it could keep its home. I have never seen her work with a canine that was extremely aggressive. When has Victoria ever helped rescue dogs?
Honestly, I think Victoria's a great trainer but I also think, in some cases, Cesar's methods work as well. What bothered me was how obnoxious the other judge was during their argument. What a 5th grade method of argument on her part -- and so in that respect, I'm definitely on Victoria's side.
Victoria Stilwell can't even do proper marker training with dogs. Stop drinking the kool-aid people. Do some actual research and be open to other approaches before seeing an ACTRESS on TV incorrectly show you how to mark a response.
She is from the Animal Behaviorist College. She follows their teachings wholeheartedly and if you think that organization doesn't have a slant on their research, then you are sadly mistaken.
I pity the dogs who are trained by people like Cesar Milan. Those people are not trainers and they use very old fashioned harmful technique's.
A dog shouldn't listen to you because it is scared. It is far more difficult of making dogs happy en motivate them to do what you want them to do. If you can do that then you are a good trainer. You need a lot more skills and knowlegde for this, then if you are just supressing them.
Victoria is the BEST! I'm only 13 years old, but I've watched her videos sice I was 10. I learned from them. I've trained pratically ALL my friends' dogs and its really afftetive,a dn leaves the dog very happy.
Victoria is a pseudo-intellectual. SHe is clearly wrong and stupidly misunderstands JD and Galaxy's relation. How can she assert that JD trained by domination. We are never shown the history of any of these dogs' training. And how can she prove that the others did not dominate their dogs. It was a performance based training and JD performed great. Victoria also showed bias against JD in the final episode while ignoring Presly's failure in the previous episode. Very bad judge Victoria!
Honestly, Victoria Stilwell is the BEST trainer in the world, I think she is!! I watch it's me or the dog evry time it comes on on animal planet!!! Wow!!! Go Victoria!!!!!! Fight!!!!!! Oh and btw what's tht show called??
what a retard that wendy is, LISTEN to what the woman has to say for Heaven's sakes. be mature and take in opinions regardless of your level of mastery
Wow! Now I'm beginning to get the "black or white" mentality of those not in favour of Cesar Milan's methods. No room for any opinion except their own 'cause where some see correction and guidance they can only see punishment & abuse. How does Ms Stilwell deal with what Cesar would call a red zone case - a dog that has killed or whose escalating behaviour suggests that an attack of a human or animal is not far off?
i agree with victoria your dog shouldnt listen to you because it is scared of you it should listen to you because you have train it and built a relationship with it. A dog should trust its owner and love to be around them not be scared or what might happen if they dont listen come on is that how you raise your kids i hope not!!!!
Victoria doesn't just work with the dogs she works with the people too. idk what wendy was talking about. Victoria is a heck of a good dog trainer. I have watched almost all her shows and she never leaves and gives up until the job is done.
I can't believe that some of you can say you want quick and easy methods to train your dog. My goodness. Don't you people know the min you brought that dog into your house it was going to be like a baby. Puppies and babies are almost the same. You need to take time with them so they learn the trends and rules of your house.
Victoria's methods are really bad, Cesas are good! I've seen her show, she make the owners act like complete ediots, so their dog will come when they call them! Cesar doesn't! Cesar methods may be old, but there the best methods! we don't need clickers or treats, the bribery! Cesar can train dogs without those! If my dogs went stupid for some reason, I'd call Cesar before I would ever call Victoria!
Victoria's methods are not always long lasting. Many trainers believe using treats to bribe your dog actually goes against what scientist do know about dogs as pack animals. Just look at what a pack leader will do in the wild if a runt tries to challenge him. He will grab him by the scruff of the neck and put him back at the end of the line. Is he being "domineering'?
What scientist are you talking about? Although wild dogs run in a social group, I think if you read some modern research (actual research not what Cesar saw on his granddaddy's farm) you would find that there is no set pack structure, and no pack leader. The out dated science that came out of 1940's Germany that you are referring to did not study wild dogs or wolves but wolves trapped in cement zoo's where they were forced to compete against one another and act unnaturally.
There are many feral dog populations around the world to study. Dogs tend not to form strong social group bonds if they live as scavangers on the streets. But if there is a a consistent food source around such as there would be in a human home enviroment, dogs will seek to place themselves somewhere in the hierarchy. Even Victoria says that dogs need a leader. She reinforces this quite often in her show.
A Good Leader, doesn't alpha role. Only an animal unsure of it's place in it's social group acts out violently. The Pack Leader (to use outdated terminology) is the animal that controls the resources of the group not the one that "dominates" the other dogs. Again, what "scientists" are you referring to? Not David L. Mech, Dr Roy Coppinger or Dr. Roger Abrantes...
Dr. Roy Coppinger (a biology professor at Hampshire College, author and an extremely well-respected member of the dog training community) says in regards to the dominance model (and alpha rolling): "I cannot think of many learning situations where I want my learning dogs responding with fear and lack of motivation. I never want my animals to be thinking social hierarchy. Once they do, they will be spending their time trying to figure out how to move up in the hierarchy."
Then why does Victoria say to assume a leadership role? And no one, by the way, is saying that a dog should fear its owner. That would obviously not be a good thing. I think we can both agree on that.
Victoria says assume the leadership role, because we have to be the guardians/custodians of our dogs, as we do to anything we have chosen to care for. We show them what it means to be a dog in a human house hold, give them rules and provide them access for the things that they want. A dog should trust it's owner, and be confident in their owner, not waiting for the next sporadic moment of intimidation.
Cesar Milan has the worst case of "short man syndrome" I have EVER seen! He bullies dogs into submission and then sends them back to their families as a ticking time bomb. Have you not seen or heard of the dogs that have attacked and been PTS after being "trained" by this con man?
Victoria Stillwell uses POSITIVE methods in her training and has successfully helped a hell of a lot of dogs and owners with a huge variety of problems. Dont waste your money on Milans books.
You have to pick and choose from both of these trainers, they both have something valid. There are some things that Ceaser uses that are useful, and so does Stilwell. We have gone from the yank and crank trainers and have swung to the feel good training that just bribes dogs with food with no corrections. I would rather be the one in the middle who is not afraid to correct a dog and require compliance with fair training methods, then to hope that the dog does what I ask with just treats.
The older the method, the more instinctual and helpful to the dog.
Victoria Stilwell's methods of training might be good for training a dog tricks, but I wouldn't count on her to permanently remove a dog's negative behavior.
Rock on Cesar! His new book is released October 6th, buy it and be educated the right way!
Cesar's methods might be old, but has he ever failed in rehabilitating a dog? Not that I know of. If he doesn't completely help the family, he takes the dog to his Dog Psychology Center and spends more of his time rehabilitating the dog. Never has the thought off putting a dog down or giving up on a dog come to his mind. His method of rehabilitating a dog comes from the dog's nature. He is the pack leader and the dog is the follower. That is how it's supposed to be.
Wow people, have you not seen Victoria's show? If she is not successful in training the dog, she suggests giving the dog up. Because that's what all the best trainers these days are doing, right?
The only real difference between the two is that one bribes the dog to do what you want and the other shows the dog that you are worthy of being his pack leader.
Victoria uses negative punishment (not acknowleding the dogs "wrong" behaviour) which is infact disipline. with out disipline the world would be insane... how would we let the dog know what we want with out showing him?
I see both methods of training effective but if I choose which method I would prefer it would be positive reinforcement. Physical dominance would be my last resort which I have done. My Goldie was aggressive towards me and my family so we did the Alpha roll on her and after that she was fine. But if you can rehabilitate or train a dog without touching the dog that alone is skill. But I what I find disturbing is that if a dog were to kill a cat a positive re. trainer would say put the dog down.
@09DevilKiller Actually a "balanced" trainer uses both positive and negative reinforcement. Positive teaches, negative teaches avoidance. I responsible dog owner knows a dog has instincts chasing cats) and that managing a dog's nature (keeping him away from lose cats) is what is best for all.
@k9sue Having a negative relationship with your dog is unhealthy. Yes, I do agree that a balanced trainer uses both positive and negative training, but does that mean it's right. I belive a good trainer builds a good relationship with the dog and bonds with it during training. If the dog is scared of it's trainer. What good comes out of that. I'm pretty sure you'll agree with me when I say, you wouldn't like to be a dog that's scared.
@crazydoofusuk Bad training makes fearful dogs, I train Assistance Dogs for the Disabled who absolutley adorethier handlers.Please read up on learning theory and dogs. Negative reinforcement does not mean pain or unfair.. It means taking away. Punishing a dog without him knowing what he did wrong is unfair and creates a dog afraid of the owner. Using positive reinforcement to teach and negative reiforceent (not punishment) to set limits creates a balanced dog and a great relationship.
@k9sue Incorrect. Negative reinforcement means to take away an aversive only once the dog gets it right so you have to hurt them to start with. Negative punishment would mean to take away something the dog likes. I think you may have gotten mixed up there. No reward based trainer uses negative reinforcement...prong collars and choke chains and sometimes even shock collars are classed as negative reinforcement...just as damaging as positive punishment.
@Canislupess You are making the mistake of mixing common definitions with Scientific ones. In Operant conditioning Negative means to remove - nothing more. Positive means to add. Reinforcement means to increase a behavior, Punishment means to decrease behavior. There is nothing that indicates pain (hurt) is used.
@k9sue I know the difference between positive and negative in scientific terms thank you. You are forgetting the "Reinforcement" part of the term which means that it is more likely to increase a behaviour. So, how can removing something good increase a desirable behaviour? Negative reinforcement means to remove something to increase a behaviour and you remove it once the behaviour is offered...this means that whatever you remove must be aversive to the dog for it to actually be reinforcement.
@Canislupess Just what I said. YOU said aversive means pain or "hurt". That is not true. The dog avoids an averisive, but what a dog finds aversive can vary from dog to dog. A good trainer reads the dog. The most aversive thing you can do to my working Border Collie is pull him off his stock. To Cavalier, it may be a slightly sterner tone of voice.
@k9sue Aversive - "Causing avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior by using an unpleasant or punishing stimulus, as in techniques of behavior modification" From the dictionary.
If calling a dog has an aversion to being called back to you off the stock, there's something wrong. They might not love it but they don't have an aversion to it...especially as recalls should be taught with +R which the dog likes....not like with pain or intimidation. I would agree about the stern voice mind.
@Canislupess You cannot use a dictionary for a scientific term. Aversion is a stimuli a subject will avoid. Not everything is pain or "intimidation (not sure what you mean by that). There is not hing wrong with my high drive herding dog. +R is not going to work as Stock has a higher reward value than anything I can offer. It is called instinct - and he was bred that way. I simply command a down and go get him. Nor would I use -R or +P to try to overcome it. OC does not solve everything!!!
@k9sue I've had working line BCs all my life..I know how they are. I also know sheepdog trainers who have no problem calling their high drive dogs off the stock. A BC that wouldn't be called off the stock when required would not be desirable to farmers.
How do you think they train search and rescue BCs to ignore sheep? We have sheep that roam the mountainous areas here in the UK and this is where these dogs work...and out of sight of handlers too btw...
@Canislupess Now who can't read? I never said a Border Collie could NOT be called off of stock, only that they find it "aversive". My point is "aversive" to our dogs is what they will avoid, not just physical pain. Training and Behavior modification involves us manipulating their natural behaviors and instincts to our desires. -P can be more "painful" in terms of stress than -R. Depends on the dog's perspective, not the human one. A balanced trainer knows this.
@k9sue Where the heck did I say your BC couldn't be called off stock?
"Negative Reinforcement is the opposite of positive reinforcement. This involves a punishment for less than favorable performances and usually implies some kind of fear, pain or discomfort for the animal being trained. Training aids such as electrical shock collars or choke chains would fall under this category."
Tell me an instance of -R where pain/intimidation is not used.
@k9sue Also bear in mind that negative punishment happens to everyone every single day of our lives...it is a part of life and. believe it or not +R will not work without -P because they work in conjunction so don't try making -P out to be less humane than -R. All trainers who know what they are talking about know that isn't the case.
@Canislupess Guess what - -R and +P also happen to dogs everyday in "real life" and it is a natural way they learn. It is part of safety in many cases. A dog needs to learn how to avoid pain, discomfort, distress or danger. He learns it by -R and +P. An animal with no fear is a danger to himself and possibly others. A dog that has never been taught limits is unreliable and in some cases nuerotic. Yes, -R and +P can be abuse, when the stimulus is too severe or uncalled for.
@k9sue Things that happen to dogs by chance/accident etc...is one thing...for the owner to inflict it upon them is another completely. It erodes trust in the owner, ruins the bond between dog and owner and makes the dog learn to only offer undesirable behaviours when the owner isn't around...because they don't get punished then...this is why such techniques aren't much use for real training.
@Canislupess "All trainers who know what they are talking about know that isn't the case." What an egotistical statement. You know the minds of all trainers? I have news for you, all trainers do not think like you. I just reads a book by a dog trainer wth a PhD in Animal Behavior. She stated the opposite. Mental stress can be much more inhumane to a dog than mild physical discomcort. That has been proven in studies.
@k9sue Yes but where is the proof that -P is what causes most mental stress? How could +R work without also using -P? Do you reward your dogs whether they get something right or not...so that they never learn which is which...or do you not reward them when they get it wrong? THAT is -P and it is needed for the dog to be able to differentiate between the correct and incorrect behaviour...or it couldn't learn what we wanted at all.
@k9sue Plus, who's to say that I'm not in direct contact with behaviourists with PhDs, which I am, reading books by such people, which I currently am and have done etc....I know what they think because they've told me themselves. They don't use -R in training. They use +R and -P.
@k9sue I must have seriously good hearing then to be able to "hear" what you are typing.
You described a scenario and it wasn't actually -R and you didn't go into specifics regarding the +P in learning either...plus you talk like you just assume the dog hates the noise when you're not in a position to know that unless the dog acts scared of the noise.....plus I know it's easy to teach such a behaviour without the need for either +p or -R so why use them when you don't have to?
@Canislupess Again with the reading disability. I made no claim that the dog "hates" anything. The dog avoids the noise and that is an observable phenomena. "Afraid"?, you are making an asumption here. You cannot teach this without the noise, it is the stimulus, which by nature is unplesant. We do teach it without +P and do use +R as well.
@k9sue My hearing assistance dogs learn to "turn off" the annoying sound of a fire alarm they must go to their owner and lead them to the noise."
Here you imply that the dog finds the noise annoying (Aversive) and you also class the scenario as -R which would require the dog to find the noise unpleasant. There is no evidence at all that the dog finds the noise annoying or unpleasant and that it is trying to "Avoid" it. Thats like saying a dog tries to avoid the verbal cue "Sit" by sitting.
@k9sue Calling the dog off the stock would still not be classed as something the dog had an aversion to. At worst, it would be classed as -P which is taking away something the dog wants. I have already stated I have no issue with -P as well as using +R...plus I also stated yet again that I used CC with one of my dogs but yet you still keep going on that OP isn't the only way as if I didn't know.
Plus - if you can't use a dictionary for the definition of a term, what the heck can you use?
@Canislupess Scientific terms are defined in Textbooks and academic papers, not Webster's. Try using Webster's for "negative" "positive" or "punishment" as they are commonly defined compared to the OC definitions. The whole point of formal terminology is use only one standard definition for clarity. "Aversive" mean avoid and nothing more, that is the OC definition. Just like "negative" means to remove, positive means to add and "punishment" means only to reduce repetition of a behavior.
@k9sue Yes, I already know all that stuff but you tell me where you can implement -R with a dog that doesn't involve pain or intimidation? Don't tell me an instance of -P followed by +R.
@Canislupess My hearing assistance dogs learn to "turn off" the annoying sound of a fire alarm they must go to their owner and lead them to the noise. This is a life saying skill. It is taught with -R (sound stops with the behavior). The dog is also rewarded -+R at the completion. +P primarilyly is used in learning. -R is minimal but still important in reliability in much of service dog training. Nothing used ever hurts or causes pain to the dog.
@k9sue The dogs don't know automatically before training to lead the owner to the noise. The dog must be taught to actually do that by another means. Basically, the fire alarm is a cue just like a verbal "Sit" is a cue to put their bum to the floor. The whole thing can be taught via +R and -P. If the dogs don't act bothered by the alarm, who's to say that it is actually aversive to them?
@Canislupess That is pretty silly. No dog knows what you want before you show them. That is the purpose of training. Ever heard of shaping? -R can be use in shaping just as easily as +P. +P is almost always the best choice for the average dog. Did you know -R is the most resistant to extinction?
@Canislupess What? You need to read that chapter on reinforcement ratios again. Reinforcement schedules apply to all four quadrants of learning, not just +R. +P and -P both stop behavior. -R and +R both increase (teach). What behaviors do you reinforce (increase) and punish (stop) at the same time? -P is removing a desirable to stop unwanted behavior. +P is NOT withholding a treat until the dog gets it correctly, that is +R. Ratios are how often the reinforcer is applied..
@k9sue I never said that variable ratio didn't apply to all quadrants...I only referred to one. Where did I say it did NOT apply to all quadrants?
After speaking to another trainer/behaviourist about this conversation, they agreed that it is you who seems to be clueless about what you are talking about. Especially describing the assistance dog with the alarm sceneario as being -R when it is not even a quadrant, it is a response to a cue.
@k9sue " Do you reward your dogs whether they get something right or not...so that they never learn which is which...or do you not reward them when they get it wrong? THAT is -P "
That is what I put....so, where did I say that witholding a treat was +P? Seriously, you make stuff up as you go along. Witholding a reward is classed as -P...it;s still denying the dog something it wants, you don't have to actually take it away from the dog in the first place you know.
@k9sue "However, the strength of the aversive can only be judged by the recipient. What the trainer may consider to be mild may be seen by the trainee as blisteringly severe. Furthermore, since all negative reinforcement, by definition, includes a punisher, making a practice of using negative reinforcement puts you at risk for all the unpredictable fallout of punishment: avoidance, secrecy, fear, confusion, resistance, passivity, and reduced initiative, as well as spillover associations.....
" in which anything that happens to be around, including the training environment and the trainer, becomes distasteful or disliked, something to be avoided or even fled from. "
From an article at karen pryors clicker training website....unless you want to argue that too regarding -R.
@k9sue "Clicker trainers use negative punishment, which is the removal of something the dog wants. For example, ""penalty yards" (TM pending, Lana Horton)" is a common method used in teaching loose leash walking. The dog sees something it wants. As long as the dog walks nicely, the trainer lets it walk toward what it wants. However, if the dog pulls, the trainer walks the dog backwards....continued.....
@k9sue Continued....."Walk nicely; get what you want—positive reinforcement. Pull; lose what you want—negative punishment. This method is extremely clear to the dog, because getting or losing what it wants is controlled by the dog's actions."
Another article from the karen pryor clicker training site.
@k9sue Remember that super observers do not exist....the only one really inside a dogs head is THAT dog. Unless there are outward signs that a dog does not like the sound, you are not in a position to say they don't like it....and if there was outward signs, it would be very inhumane to force the dog to work under that kind of stress. Assistance dogs in the UK are taught via clicker training...they don't use +P and -R.
@Canislupess Assistance dogs here are clicker trained as well. Any +P or -R would come only in the distraction/duration building phases of impulse control. An assistance dog without impulse control is worthless. All "corrections" are minimal.
@k9sue Funnily enough, impulse control can easily be taught via +R and -P...Kikopup demonstrates this clearly in her tutorial videos on here and I have also taught my dogs plenty of impulse control exercises and none involved the use of +P or -R.
@Canislupess I can use negative reinforcement by simply using my leash to hold my dog until HE relaxes (no pain, just mild pressure). I can reward him with praise or a treat when he returns focus to me. Operant conditioning is not THE only way a dog learns.Dogs can benefit from knowing what NOT to do as long as you first teach them what TO do with reward. There is NEVER a reason or need to HURT a dog under any circumstances.
@k9sue It must still be aversive enough to the dog for him to feel "Relieved" once the pressure is taken away...if not, he will habituate and ignore it especially if the reward from the undesirable behaviour is too high. Humane training does not involve +P or -R.
+R and -P are all you need to actually train dogs and classical conditioning to change emotional responses.
@Canislupess Habituation takes place only when the dog finds the motivation higher value than the aversive. Trainers that allow a dog to self reward (continue pulling) while using an aversive creat habituation. That is why pinch and other severe collars fail, the owner continues to reward the pulling by letting the dog keep going. +R and -P are great if you want to train agility, flyball and tricks in a controled environment. Positive does not mean permissive! OC is not the only tool.
@k9sue I would have thought my post first mentioning habituation makes it clear I know how it works. I specifically stated that if the dog isn't bothered by the leash pressure and the reward of the undesirable behaviour is too strong, that would cause habituation....but it also happens even with harsher methods that work for a time but cease to work after so long because the dog gets used to it.
@k9sue I'd also like to add that I have used OC and classical conditioning for behaviour modification as well....works just as well as with tricks etc...
@Canislupess Classical conditioning is a every useful tool in an behaciorist's toolbag. This is not the place to discuss the enitre gambit of Learning, something I have been both learning and teaching for 35+ years. I have bben appling "theory" to application in the real world as a succesdul competiion dog trainer for as long. You want to oversimpfy the subject. What "works" best for the dog from HIS point of vies is my only concern as a trainer. 100% positive is not the complete answer.
@k9sue For heavens sake...have I not already stated that I also use CC? Look back through my posts and tell me that I haven't. Also look back through my posts and tell me where I stated OP is the ONLY way. You are obsessed with this OP is not the only way and CC is a vaulable tool and I never even disagreed about that in the first place...geez, try reading my posts!!! Pity your 35+ years of training haven't helped you get good at reading what other humans type.
Go victoria you rule your the best dog trainer ever
Raja7762 2 months ago
Tht woman tht is being mean to victoria is mean victoria good job!!
MrIlovesongs123 3 months ago
whaw, that was unpredictable, very unprofessional victoria...
Imnoonenumber1 6 months ago
Wendy Diamond sucks
Jmoric 9 months ago 2
Soy Medico y no la voy a matar por tener un Trastorno por Ansiedad como lo hizo con el pobre perrito Que le hubieran hablado a Cesar o algun otro entrenador
alejandro33505 9 months ago
i cant watch this wendy iamond winds me up
georgiabeastx 10 months ago
u realy should show the other half of this argument cas u cant judge victoria without seeing the whole argument. in the second half wendy diamond apologises for the way she was to victoria and victoria showed how much of a better person she is adn accepted
georgiabeastx 10 months ago
Fuck, victoria is an annoying untalented fake, she doesn't know shit and she sucks at what she pretends to be an expert at.. example.." I follow the very best in this country.." what the fuck does that mean, oh yah,.. it means she does her best at imitating the EXPERTS, too bad if you are as fucking unskilled as her following the very best in this country while trying to implement the same techniques in real time only MAKES YOU SUCK WORSE, fucking slut. :)
Burnz2much 10 months ago 3
Victoria's own dog is over weight. She's a joke
andysepul1 11 months ago 6
Science isn't always right. Like the scientis in the UK that helped banned the use of e-collars. The people that did that test grabbed a couple of dogs and put e-collars on them with the power all the way up and shoked the shit out of those poor dogs. just to prove that the e-collars were bad. If you use a e-collar to cause pain on the dog your using it the wrong way. Victoria Stilwell is a joke. Just because she's on tv doesnt make her a good trainer.
andysepul1 11 months ago 5
Galaxy at 0:47 was like "Wendy and Victoria, shut the f***in' hell up!!! I'm sooo tired, just judge it already!"
hoteliwinshowcases 11 months ago
victoris is the best by far!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1087toni 1 year ago
who wins?
bob225ish 1 year ago
And the "Goddess" of the Negative Reinforcement Training can say who lives or who Die!
Like Any one can Confirm that simply watch the 'positive' training of Victoria Stillwell
-It's the dog or me- season 3 ep.2 and season 2 ep. 1
on a clear case of Dominance and Pack Behaviour a dog, Benji, recibe Swift and Expedite Sentence of "positive training" BY PHONE...
"THAT DOG MUST BE PUT DOWN"
I'll say, She is the BUTCHER of the Negative Reinforcement Training!
starwarssuck 1 year ago
@isototalerok Thats why he gets bitten all the time. Good trainers do not get bitten by the dogs they treat. CM only knows how to suppress symptoms, he doesn't know how to address the root cause of problematic behaviour....what the shows don't tell you is the high incidence of failure with the dogs after he left.
Canislupess 1 year ago
Victoria is so totally the god of dog training!!
nastrocksxd18 1 year ago
I'm not sure what order they came in but Wendy stopped to chat on the red carpet of the film opening sisterhood of the travelling pants 2 and fully admitted she WASN'T a dog trainer, so who is she to (1) be judging on this show and (2) tell not only Victoria Stilwell but the rest of the dog training fraternity in America they're ridiculous? Lol priceless
huskamania 1 year ago
This is what is wrong with the US. Some random media-whore gets to go on TV and dismiss the overwhelming weight of science from a position of equal credibility to that of an actual expert. Then the media packages it up as some kind of cat-fight. I don't know how Stillwell kept her temper as well as she did. This was exactly like watching a global warming denier.
AngrySemite 1 year ago
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VICTORIA U R SUCH A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSER THE BIGGEST ONE OF ALL. CESAR MILLAN IS THE BEST. YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT TRAINING GIRL HAHAHHAHHA U R HILARIOUS WITH UR TACTICS EVEN MY DOG IS LAUGHING WITH U LOSER.
orjanaen 1 year ago
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VICTORIA U R SUCH A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSER THE BIGGEST ONE OF ALL. CESAR MILLAN IS THE BEST. YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT TRAINING GIRL HAHAHHAHHA U R HILARIOUS WITH UR TACTICS EVEN MY DOG IS LAUGHING WITH U LOSER.
orjanaen 1 year ago
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orjanaen 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
VICTORIA U R SUCH A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSER THE BIGGEST ONE OF ALL. CESAR MILLAN IS THE BEST. YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT TRAINING GIRL HAHAHHAHHA U R HILARIOUS WITH UR TACTICS EVEN MY DOG IS LAUGHING WITH U LOSER.
orjanaen 1 year ago
that dog doesn't look scared or dominated
KrunchMonster1 1 year ago
Victoria is my Lady....
MrRottboss 1 year ago
Ceasr is god, you gadda beat yo dog, show it who's the boss !!!!
Teuli 1 year ago
It's more like a cat fight, LOL!
djudgata 1 year ago
... This woman needs a reality check. She ISN'T God... Why can't she accept that maybe her method doesn't work for everyone....
hiheyhello10 1 year ago
@hiheyhello10 Dominance theory and rank reduction aren't a method...they are a serious mistake and can have serious consequences. Watch a video of Dr David Mech (Highest authority on wolves in present day) state how even wild wolves do NOT live in dominance hierarchies....so if wolves don't, we are people applying this to dogs? Reward based training isn't just one method either. There's a whole range of methods can be classed as reward based training to fit ALL dogs.
Canislupess 1 year ago
I agree with the one who supported positive reinforcement. It is the only way and people who say it doesn't work need to meet my Lucy. She is the best behaved dog in the world and I have never yelled at or dominated her before in her life :D
trekkie441 1 year ago
@isototalerok You are correct, unfortunately too many people think "alpha" means dominate by force. They bully thier dogs without ever training them. They think dogs should acutomatically know how to be "human". Leaders are great teachers and protectors, bullies are dictators who "control" with fear and brutality, not lead .
k9sue 1 year ago
One common mistake that people make is to confuse “training and obedience” with “leadership”. In my experience, they are different.
micrasheep 1 year ago
I think there is an issue with peoples undestanding of "dominant" which we are educated to understand as being a negative term.
When Victoria talks of dominant she talks of bullying and violence, when cesar talks of dominant he means to be confidently in charge.
I "dominate" my dog but do not beat/starve etc her. I am just the boss, just like I am with my children. When they are naughty, they know they are in trouble and when they are good they know that too.
My dog behaves for me, but is
micrasheep 1 year ago
naughty for my partner and children. When they come in the house she jumps on them and is very hyper but she will not do the same to me. She will refuse to leave the room etc for my partner and kids but will go for me.
She doesnt do this because she is afraid, she does it because she knows that I am in charge, just like the other animals I work with (horses and livestock)
Dominate is not stilwells naive version, it is simply to take control.
micrasheep 1 year ago
Victoria Stilwell is a bitch... she needs some Milan based corrections of her behaviour and I'm glad to help out. What a complete retard.
BasilHoneycup 1 year ago
All of you saying that Negatiive behavior training works faster then Positive are wrong because its not fixing the behavior it's just supressing it and eventually when all this supressed behavior builds up that dog could lash out with an aggressive response.
GalinaRalyn 1 year ago
i can't very good speak English. What they say? Please write. I must understandt it with translator. It's the besy ;D
WhiteRabbitPL 1 year ago
haha it`s funny
WhiteRabbitPL 1 year ago
Wendy is 100% correct. We all don't wanna go with your way, Victoria! Wendy is right, he has his way, and she has her way, she needs to but out of business! You can't be all lovey dovey in training, you have to be like boot camp to them, and then they will listen! I hate people that baby their dogs. I HATE it.
SWLHPro 1 year ago
@SWLHPro
it's not "babying" it's positive training...
fantomroyale 1 year ago
@SWLHPro You're being ignorant. She doesn't "baby" dogs, she trains them only by rewarding them for positive behavior. That means there are no consequences for bad behavior, just rewards. This way works much better because it solves the dogs' problems, rather than suppressing them.
Prismer6 1 year ago
Victoria is a good trainer and all but she is still no "god" with dogs like she thinks she is, her ego has obviously grown a bit too much.
I'd like to see the bitch try and train an Aggressive Caucasian Shepherd or Fila Brasileiro, then she can truly be called a God lol.
bluegama500 1 year ago
@bluegama500
"bitch" probably can train any dog cases with better and longer lasting results....
fantomroyale 1 year ago
@fantomroyale I'm not saying she's shit. She's good but probly not the best in the world like she thinks.
bluegama500 1 year ago
@bluegama500
she doesn't say she's the best, but she knows what the best technique is. i've seen her shows and she observes the animals and gets down to the root of the problem which has a more lasting effect.
fantomroyale 1 year ago
@fantomroyale I know, I've seen it too. At first it looked likej she was even better than the dog whisperer guy, but after watching both fshows for a while The dog whisperer guy is actually a much better trainer imo. Forgot his name.
bluegama500 1 year ago
@fantomroyale
She doesnt what she says when the US female trainer says you are not god of dog training...victoria says "yes I am, because I follow the very best in this country!" ?
WTF
micrasheep 1 year ago
I'd have to say the "its me or the dog" bitch is wrong. Negative reinforcement works just as well as positive but just works faster.
Negative reinforcement for behavior is good but not when you are training it. If a dog bites you for example, negative reinforcement is natural in Wolves. But when you want it to do a trick you don't force it to do it.You don't want the dog to be scared of you, you want it to actually like you and want to do the tricks or whatever it is.
bluegama500 1 year ago
Lol she says dominant/submissive training is medieval, but did she ever see herself on tv? She's dressed and acts like an sm mistress! She's like the dominator of dominance!
sn3ax 1 year ago
get her!
AeronRotiart9 1 year ago
go to hell victoria! if you followed the best in the industry, you would understand that positive training doesnt work with all dogs. cesar milan and other dog psychologists do not use "medieval" methods of training. do your research.
CaislinnK 1 year ago
@CaislinnK
how do you know "positive training doesn't work with all dogs." that's an assumption... and actually she seems to do a lot of research!
fantomroyale 1 year ago
0:24 his face is priceless :P
Tyllica 1 year ago
Wendy Diamond's a bitch.
SrslyAnnoyed 1 year ago 2
damn i never seen victoria stilwelll bad side. that's my girl!!!!! you go girl
CLRaider 1 year ago 3
you know cesar have class this woman dont have any....
you can see the face of the dog owner? is like wtf...haha.
Cesar regardless the continues attack from this kind of people still is the number one dog behaviourist ...so VS please take a vicodin or something and comeback to teach "postive training" when your enrgy is calm and assertive :D
rockero1590 1 year ago
The other woman did not begin the argument. Victoria overstepped her boundaries. She did not have to begin an argument, and she is NOT the God of dog training. I would love to see her work with a wolf or wolf hybrid - as Cesar has; then I will become impressed. Until then, I have not seen her as the cause of any dog being rehabilitated so that it could keep its home. I have never seen her work with a canine that was extremely aggressive. When has Victoria ever helped rescue dogs?
jmchugh73 1 year ago
pimp slap that other lady victoria!
0thevushi0 1 year ago
Go Victoria.
allisoninouye 1 year ago
Go Victoria.
allisoninouye 1 year ago
i have to agree with the first person who talked. people have different methods and you have to deal with that.
PartyLily14 1 year ago
Honestly, I think Victoria's a great trainer but I also think, in some cases, Cesar's methods work as well. What bothered me was how obnoxious the other judge was during their argument. What a 5th grade method of argument on her part -- and so in that respect, I'm definitely on Victoria's side.
angrypizzagirl 1 year ago 3
wow catfight :p
rosa4523 1 year ago
Oh snap! I can imagine two dogs fighting aggressively as they bicker XD
XxPnuemaxX 1 year ago
I love Victoria Stilwell. :)
BradleyHowingtonYo 1 year ago
agree with victoria stillwell ... :)
ur awesome victoria!
AnimeLover5838 1 year ago
I don't like My Way or the Highway sense of things, they always muss things up.
I'm starting to think Ms. Stillwell isn't all she's cracked up to be...
Everybody has their own opinions. The dog was trained very well and proofed in it, not sure what's to argue.
CalvinWarbler 1 year ago
victoria for the win!
greatonisionfan 1 year ago
Victoria Stilwell can't even do proper marker training with dogs. Stop drinking the kool-aid people. Do some actual research and be open to other approaches before seeing an ACTRESS on TV incorrectly show you how to mark a response.
She is from the Animal Behaviorist College. She follows their teachings wholeheartedly and if you think that organization doesn't have a slant on their research, then you are sadly mistaken.
jcham979 1 year ago 2
Victoria is the best trainer ever but at least she is up on the latest research and studies.
CrueLoaf 1 year ago
I pity the dogs who are trained by people like Cesar Milan. Those people are not trainers and they use very old fashioned harmful technique's.
A dog shouldn't listen to you because it is scared. It is far more difficult of making dogs happy en motivate them to do what you want them to do. If you can do that then you are a good trainer. You need a lot more skills and knowlegde for this, then if you are just supressing them.
MsNadja1982 1 year ago
Victoria is much better than al the other trainers who use supressing methods to make their dogs obey.
MsNadja1982 1 year ago
LoL she's ridiculous indeed ^^
lightenlynx 1 year ago
Victoria is the BEST! I'm only 13 years old, but I've watched her videos sice I was 10. I learned from them. I've trained pratically ALL my friends' dogs and its really afftetive,a dn leaves the dog very happy.
kiwinam 1 year ago
GO VICTORIA !!!! victoria knows exactly what she is talking about the other lady is stupid and dumb
Pitbulllover171 1 year ago 4
Why would you want your dog to fear you? You want the dog to love you, if you don't want that dog to love you whats the point in owning one?
DontDoDrugsSmokeHERB 2 years ago
She's right. People like Cesar Millan take all the fun out of owning a dog.
LaLiLuLeLo1991 2 years ago
go vick
lrigyrtnuocyelyah 2 years ago
Victoria is a pseudo-intellectual. SHe is clearly wrong and stupidly misunderstands JD and Galaxy's relation. How can she assert that JD trained by domination. We are never shown the history of any of these dogs' training. And how can she prove that the others did not dominate their dogs. It was a performance based training and JD performed great. Victoria also showed bias against JD in the final episode while ignoring Presly's failure in the previous episode. Very bad judge Victoria!
prometheuscaptive77 2 years ago
yey, go victoria!
mykorrhiza86 2 years ago
Honestly, Victoria Stilwell is the BEST trainer in the world, I think she is!! I watch it's me or the dog evry time it comes on on animal planet!!! Wow!!! Go Victoria!!!!!! Fight!!!!!! Oh and btw what's tht show called??
TheTwisterCane1 2 years ago 3
what a retard that wendy is, LISTEN to what the woman has to say for Heaven's sakes. be mature and take in opinions regardless of your level of mastery
Caglehead268 2 years ago 2
don't touch my victoria! grrrr *_*
reytony100 2 years ago 4
GO VICROIA GO! YOU ARE THE WOMAN!
winky8514 2 years ago 3
GO VICTORIA!!!
tlwluvzkbl03 2 years ago 2
whoooo go victoria shes soooo right thou as well !
darcydancy 2 years ago
LOL! I LOVE HOW THE WOMAN in 1:03 LOOKED LIKE SHE WAS COVERING HER DOG'S EARS.
i think victoria is right though
laraz1 2 years ago
whoa victoria got angry lol
go victoria
cher4995 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
i hat that bitch of victoria, did she just called herself the godess of dog training?
kankun92 2 years ago
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nolanimalman 2 years ago
Comment removed
nolanimalman 2 years ago
Wow! Now I'm beginning to get the "black or white" mentality of those not in favour of Cesar Milan's methods. No room for any opinion except their own 'cause where some see correction and guidance they can only see punishment & abuse. How does Ms Stilwell deal with what Cesar would call a red zone case - a dog that has killed or whose escalating behaviour suggests that an attack of a human or animal is not far off?
Lifewhisperer 2 years ago
wow,i think wendy was right
stepherc111 2 years ago
i agree with victoria your dog shouldnt listen to you because it is scared of you it should listen to you because you have train it and built a relationship with it. A dog should trust its owner and love to be around them not be scared or what might happen if they dont listen come on is that how you raise your kids i hope not!!!!
tlwluvzkbl03 2 years ago 19
Victoria doesn't just work with the dogs she works with the people too. idk what wendy was talking about. Victoria is a heck of a good dog trainer. I have watched almost all her shows and she never leaves and gives up until the job is done.
kittykatlover125 2 years ago 19
@kittykatlover125 Yeah, except that episode she gave advice for the owners to kill their dog. She's a bitch thats it.
lightenlynx 1 year ago
I can't believe that some of you can say you want quick and easy methods to train your dog. My goodness. Don't you people know the min you brought that dog into your house it was going to be like a baby. Puppies and babies are almost the same. You need to take time with them so they learn the trends and rules of your house.
WinterBliz 2 years ago 2
Victoria's methods are really bad, Cesas are good! I've seen her show, she make the owners act like complete ediots, so their dog will come when they call them! Cesar doesn't! Cesar methods may be old, but there the best methods! we don't need clickers or treats, the bribery! Cesar can train dogs without those! If my dogs went stupid for some reason, I'd call Cesar before I would ever call Victoria!
JoWootz01 2 years ago
Victoria's methods are not always long lasting. Many trainers believe using treats to bribe your dog actually goes against what scientist do know about dogs as pack animals. Just look at what a pack leader will do in the wild if a runt tries to challenge him. He will grab him by the scruff of the neck and put him back at the end of the line. Is he being "domineering'?
lilliansmart 2 years ago
What scientist are you talking about? Although wild dogs run in a social group, I think if you read some modern research (actual research not what Cesar saw on his granddaddy's farm) you would find that there is no set pack structure, and no pack leader. The out dated science that came out of 1940's Germany that you are referring to did not study wild dogs or wolves but wolves trapped in cement zoo's where they were forced to compete against one another and act unnaturally.
Jenahig 2 years ago
There are many feral dog populations around the world to study. Dogs tend not to form strong social group bonds if they live as scavangers on the streets. But if there is a a consistent food source around such as there would be in a human home enviroment, dogs will seek to place themselves somewhere in the hierarchy. Even Victoria says that dogs need a leader. She reinforces this quite often in her show.
lilliansmart 2 years ago
A Good Leader, doesn't alpha role. Only an animal unsure of it's place in it's social group acts out violently. The Pack Leader (to use outdated terminology) is the animal that controls the resources of the group not the one that "dominates" the other dogs. Again, what "scientists" are you referring to? Not David L. Mech, Dr Roy Coppinger or Dr. Roger Abrantes...
Jenahig 2 years ago 2
Dr. Roy Coppinger (a biology professor at Hampshire College, author and an extremely well-respected member of the dog training community) says in regards to the dominance model (and alpha rolling): "I cannot think of many learning situations where I want my learning dogs responding with fear and lack of motivation. I never want my animals to be thinking social hierarchy. Once they do, they will be spending their time trying to figure out how to move up in the hierarchy."
Jenahig 2 years ago
Then why does Victoria say to assume a leadership role? And no one, by the way, is saying that a dog should fear its owner. That would obviously not be a good thing. I think we can both agree on that.
lilliansmart 2 years ago
Victoria says assume the leadership role, because we have to be the guardians/custodians of our dogs, as we do to anything we have chosen to care for. We show them what it means to be a dog in a human house hold, give them rules and provide them access for the things that they want. A dog should trust it's owner, and be confident in their owner, not waiting for the next sporadic moment of intimidation.
Jenahig 2 years ago
Cesar Milan has the worst case of "short man syndrome" I have EVER seen! He bullies dogs into submission and then sends them back to their families as a ticking time bomb. Have you not seen or heard of the dogs that have attacked and been PTS after being "trained" by this con man?
Victoria Stillwell uses POSITIVE methods in her training and has successfully helped a hell of a lot of dogs and owners with a huge variety of problems. Dont waste your money on Milans books.
RayvenMQ 2 years ago
You have to pick and choose from both of these trainers, they both have something valid. There are some things that Ceaser uses that are useful, and so does Stilwell. We have gone from the yank and crank trainers and have swung to the feel good training that just bribes dogs with food with no corrections. I would rather be the one in the middle who is not afraid to correct a dog and require compliance with fair training methods, then to hope that the dog does what I ask with just treats.
PistabachiCalifornia 2 years ago 8
@PistabachiCalifornia
Yeah!! A balanced voice of reason in what is increasingly becoming a rabid field of polarized views. Once again I say Yeah!
Lifewhisperer 2 years ago
Lifewhisperer, Thanks for your comment!
PistabachiCalifornia 2 years ago
LOVE THIS!!!
Finally!!!! people might actually be getting it!
Maroon56 2 years ago
PART 3:
The older the method, the more instinctual and helpful to the dog.
Victoria Stilwell's methods of training might be good for training a dog tricks, but I wouldn't count on her to permanently remove a dog's negative behavior.
Rock on Cesar! His new book is released October 6th, buy it and be educated the right way!
Thank you. :-)
kookycrisp01 2 years ago
PART 2:
Cesar's methods might be old, but has he ever failed in rehabilitating a dog? Not that I know of. If he doesn't completely help the family, he takes the dog to his Dog Psychology Center and spends more of his time rehabilitating the dog. Never has the thought off putting a dog down or giving up on a dog come to his mind. His method of rehabilitating a dog comes from the dog's nature. He is the pack leader and the dog is the follower. That is how it's supposed to be.
kookycrisp01 2 years ago
PART 1:
Wow people, have you not seen Victoria's show? If she is not successful in training the dog, she suggests giving the dog up. Because that's what all the best trainers these days are doing, right?
kookycrisp01 2 years ago
My respect for Victoria dwindles....
The only real difference between the two is that one bribes the dog to do what you want and the other shows the dog that you are worthy of being his pack leader.
kundle 2 years ago
GO VICTORIA!! wow lol
FreeKagura94 2 years ago 3
Im on Victoria side.Training your dog with decipline is really bad.
amandarock231 2 years ago 3
Victoria uses negative punishment (not acknowleding the dogs "wrong" behaviour) which is infact disipline. with out disipline the world would be insane... how would we let the dog know what we want with out showing him?
kundle 2 years ago 2
I see both methods of training effective but if I choose which method I would prefer it would be positive reinforcement. Physical dominance would be my last resort which I have done. My Goldie was aggressive towards me and my family so we did the Alpha roll on her and after that she was fine. But if you can rehabilitate or train a dog without touching the dog that alone is skill. But I what I find disturbing is that if a dog were to kill a cat a positive re. trainer would say put the dog down.
09DevilKiller 2 years ago
@09DevilKiller Actually a "balanced" trainer uses both positive and negative reinforcement. Positive teaches, negative teaches avoidance. I responsible dog owner knows a dog has instincts chasing cats) and that managing a dog's nature (keeping him away from lose cats) is what is best for all.
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue Having a negative relationship with your dog is unhealthy. Yes, I do agree that a balanced trainer uses both positive and negative training, but does that mean it's right. I belive a good trainer builds a good relationship with the dog and bonds with it during training. If the dog is scared of it's trainer. What good comes out of that. I'm pretty sure you'll agree with me when I say, you wouldn't like to be a dog that's scared.
crazydoofusuk 1 year ago
@crazydoofusuk Bad training makes fearful dogs, I train Assistance Dogs for the Disabled who absolutley adorethier handlers.Please read up on learning theory and dogs. Negative reinforcement does not mean pain or unfair.. It means taking away. Punishing a dog without him knowing what he did wrong is unfair and creates a dog afraid of the owner. Using positive reinforcement to teach and negative reiforceent (not punishment) to set limits creates a balanced dog and a great relationship.
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue Incorrect. Negative reinforcement means to take away an aversive only once the dog gets it right so you have to hurt them to start with. Negative punishment would mean to take away something the dog likes. I think you may have gotten mixed up there. No reward based trainer uses negative reinforcement...prong collars and choke chains and sometimes even shock collars are classed as negative reinforcement...just as damaging as positive punishment.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess You are making the mistake of mixing common definitions with Scientific ones. In Operant conditioning Negative means to remove - nothing more. Positive means to add. Reinforcement means to increase a behavior, Punishment means to decrease behavior. There is nothing that indicates pain (hurt) is used.
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue I know the difference between positive and negative in scientific terms thank you. You are forgetting the "Reinforcement" part of the term which means that it is more likely to increase a behaviour. So, how can removing something good increase a desirable behaviour? Negative reinforcement means to remove something to increase a behaviour and you remove it once the behaviour is offered...this means that whatever you remove must be aversive to the dog for it to actually be reinforcement.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess Just what I said. YOU said aversive means pain or "hurt". That is not true. The dog avoids an averisive, but what a dog finds aversive can vary from dog to dog. A good trainer reads the dog. The most aversive thing you can do to my working Border Collie is pull him off his stock. To Cavalier, it may be a slightly sterner tone of voice.
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue Aversive - "Causing avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior by using an unpleasant or punishing stimulus, as in techniques of behavior modification" From the dictionary.
If calling a dog has an aversion to being called back to you off the stock, there's something wrong. They might not love it but they don't have an aversion to it...especially as recalls should be taught with +R which the dog likes....not like with pain or intimidation. I would agree about the stern voice mind.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess You cannot use a dictionary for a scientific term. Aversion is a stimuli a subject will avoid. Not everything is pain or "intimidation (not sure what you mean by that). There is not hing wrong with my high drive herding dog. +R is not going to work as Stock has a higher reward value than anything I can offer. It is called instinct - and he was bred that way. I simply command a down and go get him. Nor would I use -R or +P to try to overcome it. OC does not solve everything!!!
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue I've had working line BCs all my life..I know how they are. I also know sheepdog trainers who have no problem calling their high drive dogs off the stock. A BC that wouldn't be called off the stock when required would not be desirable to farmers.
How do you think they train search and rescue BCs to ignore sheep? We have sheep that roam the mountainous areas here in the UK and this is where these dogs work...and out of sight of handlers too btw...
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess Now who can't read? I never said a Border Collie could NOT be called off of stock, only that they find it "aversive". My point is "aversive" to our dogs is what they will avoid, not just physical pain. Training and Behavior modification involves us manipulating their natural behaviors and instincts to our desires. -P can be more "painful" in terms of stress than -R. Depends on the dog's perspective, not the human one. A balanced trainer knows this.
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue Where the heck did I say your BC couldn't be called off stock?
"Negative Reinforcement is the opposite of positive reinforcement. This involves a punishment for less than favorable performances and usually implies some kind of fear, pain or discomfort for the animal being trained. Training aids such as electrical shock collars or choke chains would fall under this category."
Tell me an instance of -R where pain/intimidation is not used.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@k9sue Also bear in mind that negative punishment happens to everyone every single day of our lives...it is a part of life and. believe it or not +R will not work without -P because they work in conjunction so don't try making -P out to be less humane than -R. All trainers who know what they are talking about know that isn't the case.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess Guess what - -R and +P also happen to dogs everyday in "real life" and it is a natural way they learn. It is part of safety in many cases. A dog needs to learn how to avoid pain, discomfort, distress or danger. He learns it by -R and +P. An animal with no fear is a danger to himself and possibly others. A dog that has never been taught limits is unreliable and in some cases nuerotic. Yes, -R and +P can be abuse, when the stimulus is too severe or uncalled for.
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue Things that happen to dogs by chance/accident etc...is one thing...for the owner to inflict it upon them is another completely. It erodes trust in the owner, ruins the bond between dog and owner and makes the dog learn to only offer undesirable behaviours when the owner isn't around...because they don't get punished then...this is why such techniques aren't much use for real training.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess "All trainers who know what they are talking about know that isn't the case." What an egotistical statement. You know the minds of all trainers? I have news for you, all trainers do not think like you. I just reads a book by a dog trainer wth a PhD in Animal Behavior. She stated the opposite. Mental stress can be much more inhumane to a dog than mild physical discomcort. That has been proven in studies.
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue Yes but where is the proof that -P is what causes most mental stress? How could +R work without also using -P? Do you reward your dogs whether they get something right or not...so that they never learn which is which...or do you not reward them when they get it wrong? THAT is -P and it is needed for the dog to be able to differentiate between the correct and incorrect behaviour...or it couldn't learn what we wanted at all.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@k9sue Plus, who's to say that I'm not in direct contact with behaviourists with PhDs, which I am, reading books by such people, which I currently am and have done etc....I know what they think because they've told me themselves. They don't use -R in training. They use +R and -P.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess You said ALL not some. You seem to be very good at hearing only what you want to hear.
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue I must have seriously good hearing then to be able to "hear" what you are typing.
You described a scenario and it wasn't actually -R and you didn't go into specifics regarding the +P in learning either...plus you talk like you just assume the dog hates the noise when you're not in a position to know that unless the dog acts scared of the noise.....plus I know it's easy to teach such a behaviour without the need for either +p or -R so why use them when you don't have to?
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess Again with the reading disability. I made no claim that the dog "hates" anything. The dog avoids the noise and that is an observable phenomena. "Afraid"?, you are making an asumption here. You cannot teach this without the noise, it is the stimulus, which by nature is unplesant. We do teach it without +P and do use +R as well.
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue My hearing assistance dogs learn to "turn off" the annoying sound of a fire alarm they must go to their owner and lead them to the noise."
Here you imply that the dog finds the noise annoying (Aversive) and you also class the scenario as -R which would require the dog to find the noise unpleasant. There is no evidence at all that the dog finds the noise annoying or unpleasant and that it is trying to "Avoid" it. Thats like saying a dog tries to avoid the verbal cue "Sit" by sitting.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@k9sue Calling the dog off the stock would still not be classed as something the dog had an aversion to. At worst, it would be classed as -P which is taking away something the dog wants. I have already stated I have no issue with -P as well as using +R...plus I also stated yet again that I used CC with one of my dogs but yet you still keep going on that OP isn't the only way as if I didn't know.
Plus - if you can't use a dictionary for the definition of a term, what the heck can you use?
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess Scientific terms are defined in Textbooks and academic papers, not Webster's. Try using Webster's for "negative" "positive" or "punishment" as they are commonly defined compared to the OC definitions. The whole point of formal terminology is use only one standard definition for clarity. "Aversive" mean avoid and nothing more, that is the OC definition. Just like "negative" means to remove, positive means to add and "punishment" means only to reduce repetition of a behavior.
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue Yes, I already know all that stuff but you tell me where you can implement -R with a dog that doesn't involve pain or intimidation? Don't tell me an instance of -P followed by +R.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess My hearing assistance dogs learn to "turn off" the annoying sound of a fire alarm they must go to their owner and lead them to the noise. This is a life saying skill. It is taught with -R (sound stops with the behavior). The dog is also rewarded -+R at the completion. +P primarilyly is used in learning. -R is minimal but still important in reliability in much of service dog training. Nothing used ever hurts or causes pain to the dog.
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue The dogs don't know automatically before training to lead the owner to the noise. The dog must be taught to actually do that by another means. Basically, the fire alarm is a cue just like a verbal "Sit" is a cue to put their bum to the floor. The whole thing can be taught via +R and -P. If the dogs don't act bothered by the alarm, who's to say that it is actually aversive to them?
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess That is pretty silly. No dog knows what you want before you show them. That is the purpose of training. Ever heard of shaping? -R can be use in shaping just as easily as +P. +P is almost always the best choice for the average dog. Did you know -R is the most resistant to extinction?
k9sue 1 year ago
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@k9sue I have used shaping to teach my dogs hundreds of behaviours thank you...and I used only +R and -P in order to do this.
Variable ratio reinforcement is most resistant to extinction...and that involves a lower ratio of +R and a hifher ratio of -P...not -R.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess What? You need to read that chapter on reinforcement ratios again. Reinforcement schedules apply to all four quadrants of learning, not just +R. +P and -P both stop behavior. -R and +R both increase (teach). What behaviors do you reinforce (increase) and punish (stop) at the same time? -P is removing a desirable to stop unwanted behavior. +P is NOT withholding a treat until the dog gets it correctly, that is +R. Ratios are how often the reinforcer is applied..
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue I never said that variable ratio didn't apply to all quadrants...I only referred to one. Where did I say it did NOT apply to all quadrants?
After speaking to another trainer/behaviourist about this conversation, they agreed that it is you who seems to be clueless about what you are talking about. Especially describing the assistance dog with the alarm sceneario as being -R when it is not even a quadrant, it is a response to a cue.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@k9sue " Do you reward your dogs whether they get something right or not...so that they never learn which is which...or do you not reward them when they get it wrong? THAT is -P "
That is what I put....so, where did I say that witholding a treat was +P? Seriously, you make stuff up as you go along. Witholding a reward is classed as -P...it;s still denying the dog something it wants, you don't have to actually take it away from the dog in the first place you know.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@k9sue "However, the strength of the aversive can only be judged by the recipient. What the trainer may consider to be mild may be seen by the trainee as blisteringly severe. Furthermore, since all negative reinforcement, by definition, includes a punisher, making a practice of using negative reinforcement puts you at risk for all the unpredictable fallout of punishment: avoidance, secrecy, fear, confusion, resistance, passivity, and reduced initiative, as well as spillover associations.....
Canislupess 1 year ago
@k9sue Continued....
" in which anything that happens to be around, including the training environment and the trainer, becomes distasteful or disliked, something to be avoided or even fled from. "
From an article at karen pryors clicker training website....unless you want to argue that too regarding -R.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@k9sue "Clicker trainers use negative punishment, which is the removal of something the dog wants. For example, ""penalty yards" (TM pending, Lana Horton)" is a common method used in teaching loose leash walking. The dog sees something it wants. As long as the dog walks nicely, the trainer lets it walk toward what it wants. However, if the dog pulls, the trainer walks the dog backwards....continued.....
Canislupess 1 year ago
@k9sue Continued....."Walk nicely; get what you want—positive reinforcement. Pull; lose what you want—negative punishment. This method is extremely clear to the dog, because getting or losing what it wants is controlled by the dog's actions."
Another article from the karen pryor clicker training site.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@k9sue Remember that super observers do not exist....the only one really inside a dogs head is THAT dog. Unless there are outward signs that a dog does not like the sound, you are not in a position to say they don't like it....and if there was outward signs, it would be very inhumane to force the dog to work under that kind of stress. Assistance dogs in the UK are taught via clicker training...they don't use +P and -R.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess Assistance dogs here are clicker trained as well. Any +P or -R would come only in the distraction/duration building phases of impulse control. An assistance dog without impulse control is worthless. All "corrections" are minimal.
k9sue 1 year ago
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@k9sue Funnily enough, impulse control can easily be taught via +R and -P...Kikopup demonstrates this clearly in her tutorial videos on here and I have also taught my dogs plenty of impulse control exercises and none involved the use of +P or -R.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess I can use negative reinforcement by simply using my leash to hold my dog until HE relaxes (no pain, just mild pressure). I can reward him with praise or a treat when he returns focus to me. Operant conditioning is not THE only way a dog learns.Dogs can benefit from knowing what NOT to do as long as you first teach them what TO do with reward. There is NEVER a reason or need to HURT a dog under any circumstances.
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue It must still be aversive enough to the dog for him to feel "Relieved" once the pressure is taken away...if not, he will habituate and ignore it especially if the reward from the undesirable behaviour is too high. Humane training does not involve +P or -R.
+R and -P are all you need to actually train dogs and classical conditioning to change emotional responses.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess Habituation takes place only when the dog finds the motivation higher value than the aversive. Trainers that allow a dog to self reward (continue pulling) while using an aversive creat habituation. That is why pinch and other severe collars fail, the owner continues to reward the pulling by letting the dog keep going. +R and -P are great if you want to train agility, flyball and tricks in a controled environment. Positive does not mean permissive! OC is not the only tool.
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue I would have thought my post first mentioning habituation makes it clear I know how it works. I specifically stated that if the dog isn't bothered by the leash pressure and the reward of the undesirable behaviour is too strong, that would cause habituation....but it also happens even with harsher methods that work for a time but cease to work after so long because the dog gets used to it.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@k9sue I'd also like to add that I have used OC and classical conditioning for behaviour modification as well....works just as well as with tricks etc...
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupess Classical conditioning is a every useful tool in an behaciorist's toolbag. This is not the place to discuss the enitre gambit of Learning, something I have been both learning and teaching for 35+ years. I have bben appling "theory" to application in the real world as a succesdul competiion dog trainer for as long. You want to oversimpfy the subject. What "works" best for the dog from HIS point of vies is my only concern as a trainer. 100% positive is not the complete answer.
k9sue 1 year ago
@k9sue For heavens sake...have I not already stated that I also use CC? Look back through my posts and tell me that I haven't. Also look back through my posts and tell me where I stated OP is the ONLY way. You are obsessed with this OP is not the only way and CC is a vaulable tool and I never even disagreed about that in the first place...geez, try reading my posts!!! Pity your 35+ years of training haven't helped you get good at reading what other humans type.
Canislupess 1 year ago
@Canislupes same to you...why do you keep arguing when you agree with what I said? They call it projection. I am bored with this circular discussion.
k9sue 1 year ago