Neuroscience and Free Will BBC video [mirror]

[crisisofconsciousnes]

consciousness is not brain activity, this mis-identification is the root cause for 60+ million deaths during wars and countless other things caused by humans believing that they are the brain, the thoughts, the emotions. Our real identity is the consciousness and it is not brain activity, it is beyond the mind. Enlightenment is the realisation of this

[crisisofconsciousnes]

the consciousness mind is not a product of the mind, it is beyond the mind and can only be understood when the mind is silent

[crisisofconsciousnes]

cause and effect are in the mind only, in reality everything is one and now

[BesACB]

The concept of free will implies the concept of an agent. The concept of a separate agent rests on the identification with the body co-existing with the inner sense of absolute unrestrainedness of the self.

[RedLetterChristian]

the examiner saying that what you do is predetermined is just wrong, when he clearly said before that your unconscious mind is part of the decision making process and that it is in touch with your beliefs, and hopes ect. the fact that you are being asked to make a decision and that they can then follow the act of making that decision is amazing but this in no way leads to a none dualist idea of the brain, just b/c you become aware of the decision after process. the jump in logic is too great.

[MrWildbill20056]

1)This work shows latency between presentation of question and the brain activity? As such, then what about decisions made within that window of 'reactivity?'

2) A quick review also shows that the predicitions made are accurate above the 'probability due to chance' threshold, but not perfectly. Consequently is this not more accurately interpreted as simply one part of the decision making process?

3) Consquently the brain 'computer' and consciousness may work together to produce results.

[avalanche1115]

Even though its not our conscious mind which initiated the action,there is some influence it plays in the brain's decision making process.So there is some free will even though its in a lesser degree

The most ideal situation anyone would want is to have a spontaneous control over themselves, that is control over oneself without much of conscious effort.If there is conscious involement then there is more effort,having better control with less effort is a good thing IMO

[avalanche1115]

Probably yeah, I'm not my decision maker and I've experienced that in many of the conscious decisions I take, before actually I decidie to make a decision, I could sense some spontaneity leading upto me doing it.

I have read an article in the wikipedia related to this.What it basically suggests is that there has not been a consensus arrived at this issue.Also all these things doesnt necessarily mean that conscious does not influence decision making.

[Guidje]

what is the name of the documentary where this video was ripped off?? thank you, in advance...

[TheSorrowLand]

@Guidje BBC Horizon - The Secret You

[xknowledgeisfreex]

What would happen if he were told his own decision by the experimenter 6 seconds in advance of him becoming aware of it?

[scienceandnonduality]

@xknowledgeisfreex:  AWESOME QUESTION!!!!!!

[xknowledgeisfreex]

@scienceandnonduality

lol :)

[scienceandnonduality]

@xknowledgeisfreex I can see a feedback loop an dthe FMRI exploding...

Also, on the line... what about if you put the person reading the results of the the FMRI in another FMRI and see if his analisys of what the machine will read appears 6 seconds early???

:-)

[wordcolor]

@xknowledgeisfreex - good question! I'm sure then he's press the other button just out of curosity

[udoloh]

@xknowledgeisfreex I don't think they analyze the data in real time. I might be wrong though. If it does run in real time, they should definitely try it.

[kookamachu]

Randomly picking left or right is not even a decision. There is nothing for the conscious to think about, no data to analyze. He's just randomly engaging thumb muscles. Is it any surprise that our conscious isn't involved in engaging our muscles? When I move my thumb, I never think to myself, "engage First Dorsal Interosseous." It's automatic, I don't need a much fawned over scientist to tell me this.

The subconscious is the program, the conscious is the programmer.

[HIHIMIII56]

Ci si pensa che si decide cosa fare, come percepire, interpretare ...ma ...proprio é gia determinto.

[nothingnesswithouten]

Determinism is not fatalism. Daniel Dennet's book "Freedom Evolves" helped me quite a bit in thinking more clearly about this issue. Free will probably doesn't exist. This doesn't negate the fact that we have brains that can make choices.

[ZIROLAND]

@nothingnesswithouten i agree.... except on your terminology... "brains that can make choices" . choice, at least the way i understand it implies that at least more than one alternative is possible given a set of "options". freewill implies that only one course of action is ever possible.. and given the same exact situation with all variables... the same "choice" would always be made... so choice... is really a myth. there is always only one course of action...

[ZIROLAND]

@nothingnesswithouten i agree.... except on your terminology... "brains that can make choices" . choice, at least the way i understand it implies that at least more than one alternative is possible given a set of "options". determinism implies that only one course of action is ever possible.. and given the same exact situation with all variables... the same "choice" would always be made... so choice... is really a myth. there is always only one course of action...

[seerdiscern]

lol...and in those 6 seconds, his ego is trying it's best to reason him out of the decision he will make anyway.

I'm not so sure that it could be measured anyway.

[dfpolis]

Here is another gross distortion of what the experimental data actually show, which has nothing to do with free will as understood in ethics. This is the kind of nonsense typically palmed off on an unsuspecting public as "science." Peace, DP

[JCLeSinge]

Wait... this guy is apparently an expert on free will, and yet the first thing he says, more or less, is that the homunculus argument is a good answer to the question? Hmm...

[ABCarlough]

look at his face, while his reality crumbles lol

[timothyforvendetta]

"there is a pattern of brain activity that emerges before you make up your mind that tells us what you are going to decide" So apparently this means his conscious decision is secondary? Because brain activity emerged and told them that was what he was going to decide? I am believing less and less in some of the people who promote this science as reliable. Rubish!

[henryporter101]

What these experiments prove is that there is a difference between consciousness and brain activity.The experiment suggests that brain activity causes consciousness.If there was no distinction to be made,then there wouldn't be a time lag.The question remains-what is consciousness for?Natural selection is efficient,so consciousness must serve some purpose.

[Zenome]

@henryporter101 You're an idiot. In fact a certified idiot. Watch the video again and read a paper on what Doctor Haynes is reporting. Fucking dumb ass.

[JBricklin]

Good science, bad metaphysics. The inference that "consciousness is your brain activity and that's what's leading your life" is overblown. Correlation is not generation. The brain, as F.C.S. Schiller and William James pointed out over a century ago, may well be nor more than a transmitter of a consciousness that originates outside it, like a radio tuning in a symphony.

Jonathan Bricklin

[crisisofconsciousnes]

@JBricklin nice, thanks for that info

[tanthonight]

this is not shocking. of course are minds do a whole host of functions subconciously. This experiment is to easy there is no consaquence for the action. Left or right is not a big deal so you just go with what comes naturally. We have all been in a situation where we were about to make a decision seemingly easy and conciously said wait thats not a good idea and did something else this action does not take 6 secs and trumps mindless behavior this experiment entails

[Zenome]

@tanthonight First you need to learn proper writing techniques. Then you need to take a fucking lesson in biology. Fucking moron.

[ZIROLAND]

@tanthonight i think it is a big deal... a 100 years ago, this was unthinkable... :) of course, this field of inquiry is in its infancy... so we cannot make a definite conclusion... but if you look at the cosmos and what science knows about the world we live in... you will see that the deterministic view would seem most likely... freedom of will... what is the will? who's will is it... who is that person? if you break apart the idea of a "self"... division between "self" and cosmos ends.

[nerkn]

I think Haynes has expressed his self falsely, 6 sec is very long time.

[ZIROLAND]

@nerkn  you would need to look at the data. no way of knowing by this video.

[Mjhavok]

Science doesn't like one thing to cause another. Science has discovered this is how the world is.

[8nwidth]

Science just happens too, and you can't do nothing about that as well!

:-)

[kasuskasus]

Duality takes another beating! :P

[Andrew4Handel]

@kasuskasus This experiment actually promotes dualism because the conscious experience is 6 seconds out of synch with the brain activity.

However I could press a button in under 6 seconds. It seems implausible that he would need 6 seconds to make a random choice.

[MsLbarry]

I notice how the subject of this experiment is excited before the "experiment" and drained of energy, and bothered by the results of the experiment. This shows us that the devices, conclusions and results of the experiment do NOT match up with the intuitive Knowing of the subject. When your intuition speaks to you this strongly, you should take notice, HIGH NOTICE is indeed taken. Joy, and Exuberance are your indication that you are close to your High self. Knowing is a blending with it.

[8nwidth]

Unfortunately everyone has a different experience, while validation comes only from shared, testable and peer scrutinized experiences - someone call 'em science.

[sweenz25]

Free will assumes a person, but the person is just an appearance within the thinking and thinking just happens. Stuff just happens and no one is in control. Harsh! yes, but as clear as day. Just look at experience for validation.

[smudge6699]

@sweenz25

And what happens if, through appropriate practise, one assassinates the "person" created over the years by the ego, what's left?

The false small "i" dies and the big "I" is realised.

The big I is the silent witness that suffers the outpouring of the mind if invested in as real, believed.

For most the ego has control of the focus of the mind and takes the real I off on a journey into memories of the past, good or bad, or questions of the future, doubt always has fear attached.

;-)

[ZIROLAND]

@smudge6699

sounds like you've been reading eckhart tolle. :D

[crisisofconsciousnes]

@smudge6699 yes, this claiming that consciousness is a product of the mind is a bad route for humans, we really need to evolve into the spiritual beings that we truly are. Science fails again and believes in its arrogance that everything can be observed with our 5 senses. Give a man a spiritual realisation, a feeling of waking up out of concepts and mental constructs and he will find his true identity, all is one

[8nwidth]

In order to make that decision, we need to flip our neuronal coin and the fact that it takes a few seconds to become consciously aware of the result is not a big deal at all. In fact the real deal is how we flip the coin!

A nice hint comes from Penrose and Stuart Hameroff works.

[sweenz25]

@8nwidth

Sorry to point out the obvious but by definition you can’t have shared, testable, peer scrutinised experience.

I really wish those who claim to be scientific were in fact be more scientific.

Thinking just happens & that can be seen now. The phrase look to experience for validation, means just have a look, it’s self evident. Thinking just happens. & whatever science finally decides starts the thinking process, this will be the same for everyone (or so you would expect).

[stubbornVN]

I answer many questions days later. The think process plays a bigger role than just conditioning for response but many studies will ignore that by looking at macro performance.