Investigation into the Legionaries of Christ- Part I

[SeymoreLipshits]

The order is more of a "CULT" based on it's egocentric leader and now dead founder instead of a healthy spritual order that is Christ centered. It won't be the first time people have used God & Christ to fullfill thiere own desires or needs and this group is no different.

Avoid TLOC and seek a more open, stable and inclusive religious order, The Franciscans,the Dominicans or the Benedictines are just a few great orders out there that come to mind.

Good luck on your journey and God bless!

[SeymoreLipshits]

He has been discreditied by the Pope and the so called priests are very good at selection and brainwashing! Seek other groups and orders for your spiritual fullfilment & direction, Benedictines, Fransciscans, Dominicans or any other group instead of this one.

Good luck on your journy.

God Bless.

[SeymoreLipshits]

When I met the so called "leader" of the legionaries cult, he looked more like a mafia don instead of a humble priest!The terrible fact is the order is now in ruins and if your considering a life of spirituality and serving Christ, do it with an order that is Christ cenetered and full of love,humility,life, comapssion and passion.The only thing this order was cenetered on was it's now deceased founder and that is wrong!

[SeymoreLipshits]

Poverty ISN'T just physical

It's also spiritual! and the Legionaries of Christ are just that, Spritually and moraly poor!

The fact that the cult leader of the order, Who I had the unfortuante oportunity to meet in Connecticut many years ago, has been brought to ruin with compelling allegations of sexual misconduct within his kingdom is terrible and thankfully revealing!

[pablo123cool]

This people are just atheist, Priest are just like us humans and can make mistakes just like everybody , their not god, they just sent his message.

[bmccoy78]

@epiksonik I think that is one of the most offensive things I have ever read.

[5355vbxjbj76rvn]

Joining at 11 is far too young - there was a Church law, and a very sensible one IMO, that forbade joining of religious institutes before the age of 16. So what happened to it ?

Favourable description of Legion: far too supernatural to be healthy for human beings. Jesus healed people - He did not tell them to "offer it up". It's immoral to use theology as an reason not to look after the sick.

Unfavourable description: sounds as if it had (has ?) a lot of the features of a cult

[Brooks33snow]

I was in the Legion. Ask me anything you wish. You can reach me at GodAbbaJesusHS@yahoo.com

Leaving, at 22, was the hardest thing I ever did in my life, harder than walking away from the FBI, at 26.

Jerry.

[Brooks33snow]

I was in the Legion. Ask me anything you wish. You can reach me at GodAbbaJesusHS@yahoo.com

Leaving, was the hardest thing I ever did in my life, harder than walking away from the FBI.

Jerry.

[kasaibouF29]

Wasn't Legion the name of a demon Jesus Himself cast out?

[CELIBERICO]

all of them, Fr. Obannon too, he covered up and should be defrocked for his crimes. all of them....knew. a Crime !!!

[XavierRynneGS]

DISBAND THE LEGIONARIES

[jamierourketen]

''we are legion'' said the demon unto christ! what kind of name is that for a so called arm of the catholic church!

[RationalAgnostic1]

@jamierourketen: such an ignorant and illogical argument...

maybe you should study semantics.

[inarcadia3]

mystical Hare

I just said that I think we get the point after 4 postings in a row saying the same thing over and over that he has a right to say.

[inarcadia3]

Ponchorhino: I think we get the point. Thanks.

[mysticalHeir]

inarchadia3- I am Roman Catholic and ponchorhino has every right to speak his rage about this outrage. Did you know that even the Catholic Church speaks of the evil in the Church during the 20th Century. Any "religious" that is afraid to confront the Truth and speak the Truth as they are representatives of the Truth, are evil... because evil means: to split the Truth. These cowardly men kneel before their Catholic Pharisee Authorities when they should kneel before and honor Jesus Christ.

[ponchorhino]

They are reigning right now, and will have a short 7 year absolute reign here on earth with the antichrist, but make no mistake about it, I will see them burn in Hell forever for the lies, deception, murders, thefts, and for misleading millions about what the Bible really says. JESUS is King of kings, and Lord of lords. Only JESUS saves! Repent jesuit snakes and come to the true knowledge of CHRIST in the Bible! Amen!

[ponchorhino]

I will personally see them being thrust into Hell for what they have done. Do not be deceived by the whore in purple of Rome. She will be destroyed by our Lord JESUS when he comes down to reign over this earth. I know for a fact that many Knights of Columbus are now occupying seats in el palacio de San lazaro en Mexico and positions of power all over the world.

[ponchorhino]

The popes and the jesuits are the wickedest men on earth. What they did to my people, the Jews, and to all of my Christian brothers in the faith during the inquisition will someday be judged by the LORD at the Final Judgment of the GreatWhite Throne.

[ponchorhino]

The Catholic Church is full of deception, child molesters, thieves and murderers! How can somebody say that the pope has any resemblance to The LORD JESUS? I would take on anybody who would have the courage to debate that with me. The history of the Catholic Church is full of abominations.

[RationalAgnostic1]

@ponchorhino : and you would get your ass handed to you because "Truth suffers but never dies".

[ponchorhino]

@RationalAgnostic1 I hope yo come to the true knowledge and Saving Grace of JESUS one day. Do not trust any man, only trust in JESUS.

[RationalAgnostic1]

@ponchorhino: Jesus established His Church and made Peter the first pope (Mathew 16: 18-19)... authority is necessary because without the Church, one person's "trust in Jesus" might completely differ from another person... Christ knew this so that is why He established the Church teach Christ's Word and guide people to Christ.

[ponchorhino]

@RationalAgnostic1 When CHRIST said that he would establish the church on this Rock, HE was referring to Himself. Imagine HIM stating that HE would establish HIS work on a man who later negated HIM. The RCC, as we know it today, has nothing in comun with the teachings of CHRIST.

[RationalAgnostic1]

@ponchorhino: Christ told Peter "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." - Mathew 16:18-19. Pretty direct and self explanatory! Also read John 21:15-17 which occurred after Christ's resurrection! "

You believe in lies. Christ warned us about false prophets!

[ponchorhino]

...@RationalAgnostic1 Then let me ask you this: The mass is the crucifixion of Christ, correct? Then why does it say in the Bible in John 19:30 that it was finished? That JESUS was crucified once and for all? Or maybe the RCC has more authority than JESUSMmmm..

[ponchorhino]

@RationalAgnostic1.... think not. And when the Ten Commandments say that we shall never create an image, idol, to worship, yet the RCC not only allows it, but makes millions of dollars from the sales of it? MmmmSomething is not right here amigo, and I smell a rat, a Ratzinger I may say

[RationalAgnostic1]

@ponchorhino: Catholics believe the divine sacrifice "once and for all" Hebrews 7:27. But Jesus' sacrifice, though occurring in the past to us, is nevertheless always present to God, Because God himself does not exist in time as we do. John's vision depicts this eternal reality; the presentation of Jesus a "Lamb" to the Father appears to be an ongoing occurrence (from God's perspective, timeless), long after the death of Jesus (Revelation 5:6; 13:8) ......Continued.....

[RationalAgnostic1]

PART 2: Our Savior, scripture says, "has a priesthood that does not pass away" (Hebrews 7:24)

In this light it can be understood how the Mass is a re-PRESENTATION of Jesus' one time sacrificial death on the cross. In every mass the priest re-enacts Jesus' priestly actions at the Last Supper, offering once more his Body and Blood. .....Continued.....

[jpdt007]

@RationalAgnostic1 You know what you are doing...it is called FUNDAMENTALISM...citing the books literary and making vague interpretations of them to suit your needs...You are a fanatic. You are manipulated. You know NOTHIG about hermeneutics. There are people who study the bible and other ancient texts to REALY interpret whats written in them. You are just citing what your priest tells you it means and you are getting it ALL wrong and making this world a worst place with your fanatism

[RationalAgnostic1]

@jpdt007: it is simple my friend, Catholics follow the teachings of Christ, for His Word is Truth and it is direct. Our belief is not "vague" rather it is explicit and direct because it stems from Christ's Word. Yes it is a compliment to be called a "fundamentalist", for that is what we and Orthodox Christians are... NOT the so called "fundamentalist" protestants whom deviated from Christ's Word. Yes Christ's Church is the "people" or body that are united in His Word!! Read Mathew 16: 18-19

[jpdt007]

@RationalAgnostic1 U know what FUNDAMENTALISM means? its not a compliment. It is a sign of zealotry. Texts need to be interpreted by professionals it can't be interpreted by simple people like you because, being spiritual writings, it could tend to create blind and dangerous cult-like following like you are doing. Christ meant us to be free to love each-other and help each-other in this difficult world. He didnt intend us to follow him like mindless idiots or make him an idol like you are doing.

[RationalAgnostic1]

@jpdt007: I know your use of the word "fundamentalism" was an attempt to portray me and Catholics as zealots, but we do not allow psuedo-insults to bring us down. Being called a "fundamentalist" means we are doing the right thing, for Christ said " the world will hate you because you love Me". You also seem to make a lot of assumptions about me and the Catholic Church. If you are going to debate me then do not do it with subjective arguments and assumptions. Use Holy Scripture, like I'm doing.

[jpdt007]

@RationalAgnostic1 Im not trying to insult you. If you take offense thats your problem. Fundamentalists are intolerant by nature making them what jesus tried to change period. You talk about the "right" thing. What gives you that authority? To think that what you are doing is the "right" thing? I will not use the holy scripture because it is to interpretative and by that YOU are being subjective because you cite it to suit your needs. The right thing would be to always fight for equality.

[RationalAgnostic1]

@jpdt007: Face it...you "will not use Holy Scripture" because you CANNOT use Holy Scripture, for it will NOT support your moral relativist views. Everything I said and Scripture I cited is NOT subjective and it's NOT to "suit" my needs, rather it stems from Christ's Word and Catholic Church. The CC has Apostolic Ordination and Succession granted by Christ; and Holy Scripture will prove it. Your statement "always fight for equality" is rhetorical garbage stemming from a belief suiting your needs.

[jpdt007]

@RationalAgnostic1 Who wrote the bible? Why? Why were just some gospels included? You know something about hermeneutics? No? so just shut up fundamentalis zealot! It does not suit my needs. Stupid papal idolatry, hierarchy. That is the problem period. I wont discuss with a zealot because you are INTOLERANT and close minded. You cant question my true faith. NO ONE is going to force laws on me because god made me FREE from stupid hierarchies. Free to think, free to act.

[RationalAgnostic1]

@jpdt007: I think you just demonstrated whom is "INTOLERANT and close minded". And yes I certainly know hermeneutics.

And again, face it...your belief revolves around a life of convenience. Your "belief" is accepted by you because it suits your need (really desire). The CC certainly believes in "equality", but your comment "always fight for equality", I suspect is rhetorical admission of moral relativity that approves of behavior specifically condemned by Christ, His Church and Holy Scripture.

[RationalAgnostic1]

@jpdt007: PART 2: "Who wrote the bible? Why?" People that knew Christ, lived with Him and loved Him wrote the Gospels! I will trust their testimony and Christ's Word over revisionists and moral relativists like you that live 2000 years after Christ's Resurrection. Your attempt to use "hermeneutics" is really just a copout so you can evade truth and Christ's Word. All the Scripture I quoted is direct and to the point by Christ. "Why just some gospels included?" Only most relevant Gospels needed.

[jpdt007]

@RationalAgnostic1 Moral relativism? So you believe in hell too? ha! the more you try to rationalize spirituality the more you deviate from the gift of life and freedom (the real message). Yes my spirituality DOES suit my needs because it makes me happy, it makes me want to SHARE happiness and love. It does not suit my INTELLECTUAL needs like it does you. On your responses you show a egoist drive to prove you "know more" and you judge my spirituality by means of citing the bible literaly, Shame.

[RationalAgnostic1]

Part 2: Read John 6: 51-69 If you're familiar with the Bible, you know Jews already used symbolic bread and wine at passover. So why wouldn't they be able to accept what Christ had just said to them? They found it hard to endure, but they wouldn't if it had just been a symbol or only the Spirit. Why did Christ let them go if it were not literal, or why invite the apostles to do the same? It must have been literally his Body and Blood. He didn't call them back and he risked losing the others too.

[RationalAgnostic1]

@ponchorhino: PART 3: But Jesus is NOT sacrificed again in the Eucharist. Rather, his unique sacrifice is made real and present to us here and now, because it is a divine reality that transcends space and time.

Your disdain and possible hatred of the Catholic Church is in reality a disdain/hatred for what you PERCEIVE as the Catholic Church. If you actually knew the Church you would love her. Also more lies and/or misunderstanding from you. The Church does not worship idols, we worship Christ!

[ponchorhino]

@RationalAgnostic1No, I wish destruction and judgment on the Vatican and its leaders. They have become the richest most powerful men in the world. The Latin American countries under the rule of Catholicism are the most ignorant and impoverished in the world. I should know. I have traveled the world and I am now an evangelical missionary in L.A. What does JESUS have in common with the pedophiles in the Vatican? Nothing.

[RationalAgnostic1]

@ponchorhino: typical response from a person that cannot refute the aforementioned Truth of Holy Scripture. You have nothing and you are a hateful, ignorant person. Your wish of destruction on the Catholic Church is in vain, for Christ said "the gates of Hell will not prevail against it" although He also said the Church "will suffer and be persecuted" which is going on now and will continue until He comes again.

Pedophilia is in your church too. Pedos transcend all religions and demographics.

[ponchorhino]

And I hope you see the light and leave this antichristian organization so you will not partake of its coming punishment.

[RationalAgnostic1]

@ponchorhino: typical response from a person that cannot refute the aforementioned Truth of Holy Scripture. You have nothing; and you are hateful and ignorant. Your wish of destruction on the Catholic Church is in vain, for Christ said "the gates of hell will not prevail against it" even though He also said the Church "will suffer and be persecuted" which has been going on for ages and will continue until His second coming. Pedophilia is in your church too...pedos transcend everything. Continued

[RationalAgnostic1]

@ponchorhino: Part 2: it is a shame you allow the evil actions of men separate you from the Truth. Just because the sins of these men in the Catholic Church occur, it does not negate the Truth of the Catholic Church and its teaching of Christ. The Church is not immune to evil...nothing is...Christ even warned us about it, nevertheless we should be steadfast in Christ and His Church. Latin countries are not the "most ignorant and impoverished". Go to India... Mother Theresa helped them so much.

[jpdt007]

@RationalAgnostic1 You know something about theology. You know that Christ was a Jew and he didnt wish to create a NEW church. Do you know that the Church is THE PEOPLE not the Vatican. What are the Christian truths you talk about? If you support the vatican then you are AGAINST the teachings of Christ because he taught equality, justice, disdain from material things such all the money and luxury that the Vatican posses. The Legionaries are THE WORST they believe only in leadership through money

[2cOthers]

A rich, ultra-conservative and secretive Roman Catholic order The Legionaires of Christ a shadowy but powerful organization for elite, wealthy Catholics and a tradition of grooming handsome, clean-cut priests who all wear their hair parted on the left and black double-breasted suits -- the Legion of Christ sounds straight out of a Dan Brown novel.

Mexican billionaire Carlos Slim, 70, who was named the world's richest man by Forbes last week, has long been a major supporter of the Legion.

[magl211008]

No cabe que el CHA,MUCO anda suelto; orar por los sacerdotes para que no caigan en las redes de Satanás, sí, por que el demonio es astuto y convincente , hace todo lo posible por colarse dentro de la iglesia.

[Hosea22]

The Legion of Christ is a Roman Catholic congregation established in 1941 in Mexico by Fr. Marcial Maciel. It enjoyed the favor of Pope John Paul II. At the end of 2008, it was one of the Church's fastest-growing congregations, with a presence in 20 countries, and over 700 priests and over 1,300 seminarians, and claiming 70,000 members of the Regnum Christi, its lay movement. It operates several schools in Mexico, other parts of North America, as well as other Latin American countries.

[michelsonluke]

The military also has their own "recruits" who did not make it, just like the men in this video. The Legion strips the "world" from you and builds you from the ground up... finding your talents and allowing you to become all that God wanted you to be. I never would have known that I loved playing the saxophone. The Legion asked me to play and allowed me to flourish as a musician. I never would have spoken publicly, but the Legion got me out of my "shell."

[papsttreu]

So you are a novice of the Legion?

How long does it take? I saw on the german site that you have a 2-year-novitiate: as opposed to e.g. 13 months in some other orders.

[michelsonluke]

I was in the Legion for seven years. There is a period of candidacy (lasted the summer, where you discerned your vocation), 2 year novitiate, 1-2 years of juniorate (studied arts and humanities), 2 year bachelor degree in philosophy, 3 years of apostolic work, 2 more years of philosophy and theology, then possibly a doctorate in philosophy. At about ten to fifteen years, you would enter priesthood, having a FULL education in the Catholic faith under your belt. Try their test your call retreat.

[papsttreu]

That sounds really impressive. I will keep that in mind :)

Thanks a lot

[train2noplace]

This stuff is common to hardcore religious orders. I had a similar experience while involved in the TFP society. Opus Dei has the same type of thing go on. This stuff is not ipso facto wrong, but misapplied, destroys many souls.

[michelsonluke]

Lol at those guys and former priest. What's this whole news story about? Of course the Legion tells you how to eat and sleep and wake up and groom yourself. And yes mail is screened, which every Legionary knows? As an ex-Legionary who is now happily married, I count those years within the Legion as my most happy. And there were quite a few whimps within the Legion who left, just like these guys. The Legion is the Marine Corps of religious orders, not for everyone, and certainly not the weak.

[papsttreu]

What disctinguishes the Legion from other orders?

I hope to hear from you.

Peace

[michelsonluke]

It is a very orthodox order, despite its founder's actions. Legionaries maintain a very strict schedule and prayer life. And although the word "strict" sounds harsh, it is completely voluntary and makes for a true connection to God in one's life. This order and discipline is remarkable in this day and age. Their theology is complete and their philosophy courses are the best I've ever seen. The Legion isn't so unlike other orders, they just are true to their charism, while others have lost that.

[papsttreu]

Thanks: are the legionnaries trained to be diocesan priests and live alone after seminary or do they live in small groups like other orders?

Do they celebrate both forms of the Roman Rite Mass?

[michelsonluke]

They are a religious order with their own constitutions and take all three vows: chastity, poverty, obedience. They are not diocesan, although they will work with diocesan priests in their parishes and CCD programs/schools. As a religious order, they do not live alone after priesthood, but still maintain community life. It is really an amazing experience to be a member of the Legion, you are part of the community whether priest or seminarian. They have Latin Mass, but not the Tridentine.

[papsttreu]

Oh, so they are not trained to take over parishes as diocesan priests?

That actually sounds rather interesting.

Thanks a lot for the information.

[michelsonluke]

Exactly, you've got it. Religious orders work within the Catholic Church according to their constitutions. The Legion works in the family and in schools primarily. They work within the diocese they are located in, assisting diocesan priests if they wish. They also have their own schools and centers too, but obey the bishop as God's will for them.

And believe me, it is very interesting. I thought it would be boring, but the Legion is anything but. Continue to my next message.

[Surfergirl3578]

i know many legion members who are very good and holy men and do not deserve to be lumped into the whole of "pedophiles"

[michelsonluke]

How true. I still connect with all my fellow brethren now that I have left. We still love the Legion, even with these recent claims. It may even sound strange to some, but it would be next to impossible to even be a pedophile as a regular seminarian. They have extremely strict rules about being among women and kids. Only the founder was apparently "exempt" from his own order's principles and norms and constitution, which is how he "got away" with his sins in the end.

[clarinet001]

doubt it. Maybe your friend had problems before. retard.

[bosshogg585]

Never never tell the truth. Just keep denying.

[inarcadia3]

Never surreeeeender!

Even in the face of massive Klingon attacks.

[rahner1]

Legion of Christ never give up!

[poltom13]

i was a legionary for 4 years and then found out it wasn't my vocation...but never any abuse to me or my collegues. this video was made just to attack the legion because some people have to much time on their hands! its bullshit!

[clarinet001]

I agree with you. Perhaps they should interview people like you! Have you entered a different order?

[poltom13]

yea damn i wish i could be interviewed! the legion is great...just some ppl don't like it and thats they're problem!

[poltom13]

ahha

[inarcadia3]

Get a life. There are well over 20. And you do not know the evidence. Shut your hole. It is just dripping.

[tomasmk]

Lies

[inarcadia3]

yes, multiple people like to lie in two telecasts and have it recorded forever. Then the keep on lying on websites, in personal correspondance, and published books for years. Very sick. You meant the Legionaries, right?

[tomasmk]

There are no facts on these abussed cases, just declarations. No condemn has ever been made.

The Pope decided to finish the judgement with no guilt veredict ever made.

All there is are 5 or 6 guys who says that were abused, probably to get some economic or social compensation.

On the other hand, 500 priest, 2500 seminarist and more than 5000 consecrated men and woman who met and lived with Marcial Maciel and tell he is a holy priest.

Who to believe?

[clarinet001]

Thank goodness for INTELIGENT people like you.

[clarinet001]

Yes, people do like to lie. A bishop in New Englad was accused of sexual abuse. He was arrested, put on trial, and then the man who accused him admitted he lied. Perhaps you should do some investigating yourself and don't be so naive. Don't trust words alone. And please, grow up and stop arguing with people who don't agree with you.

[clarinet001]

Well mister university degree, perhaps I wouldn't find it fitting to call you a "retard" or any other offensive name if you didn't make a comment presenting yourself with minimal intelligence on this issue and lack of obvious common sense. Debate? I've been in too many; I need a break.

[clarinet001]

Are you done yet? You're acting quite immature. I doubt you are as old as your page says. Let's act like ADULTS and stop--unless you're not.

[clarinet001]

Yea I'll get back to you when I tell your HS teacher.

[cantante444]

Each of the individuals I personally know, are very afraid to say anything, on top of struggling to make sense of the abuse, as well as the silence imposed on them from every direction. It's a closed community, where members are encouraged to report on one another. Nothing can be said internally without some form of disciplinary action being taken, if the comments shed negative light on the community. I could tell you stories. You won't like them.

[catholicgroupwatch]

Who can tell me what concretely what apostolate this group does other than vocations and recruiting?

[dakidinme]

I was in a Catholic order just like the Legion that I do not want to mention and this is very scary. I went through the same crap and that guy who is saying that those people making the accusations "have other problems..." is only continuing the abuse. PRAISE GOD THIS IS COMING OUT NOW!

[cantante444]

AMEN!!! This is not what God would want.

[inarcadia3]

Are you like retarded?

[inarcadia3]

Are you like retarded? Haven't you read documents on ReGAIN about Izquierdo and Salvador M? You seem to be the one with some serious problems. What of the admissions by the LC concerning F. Cutanda? Where do you live? Under a rock?

Don't you know how long it takes for people to come to grips with abuse? you should as you admit to being a victim yourself. Perhaps you were in a school for retarded children......?

[cantante444]

If I may speak, charges have not been corroborated... YET. I have never been in relationship with the Legion except to go onto retreats where they attempted to recruit me. I can assure you, though. I know of numerous individuals, all under the age of 28, who relate stories shockingly similar to one another in detail (threats, abuse etc.(, yet they know of noone else's story but their own. Often it takes years to come to grips with this type of abuse. I assure you, it will come out.(cont'd)