George Lakoff - Does Capitalism Always Lead to Democracy?

[510AWOL]

is he not just talking about Locke's idea's on private property

[sgtmcwallace]

great distillation of the issue and debate, especially the reference to freedom form want and fear

[sgtmcwallace]

great distillation of the issue and debate, especially the reference to freedom form want and fear

[TheOldGrady]

The quintessential perfection of the free market can be observed every day in this country. Mr. Lakoff should open his self indulgent eyes and check out a garage sale, or a flea market. Or the fresh produce stand on the corner. Or the kid who shovels his snow or mows his lawn. The vendor and consumer set the price through negotiation. The consumer pays for it, the service or product is delivered -- transaction concluded. That's what's meant by Free Market. K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid)

[Scientisticsoviet]

@TheOldGrady The larger producer tends to out-compete those street vendors, particularly in capital intensive industries, due to high economies of scale and barriers to entry.

[TheOldGrady]

@Scientisticsoviet Yet those street vendors are still there in abundance -- exactly where so many of those capital intensive industries started. The whole thing gets perverted when the government gets involved or decides that one is "too big to fail" or something. Barriers to entry? "Argue for your limitations and you shall have them". -Richard Bach-

Cheers!

[Scientisticsoviet]

@TheOldGrady The way you responded makes me wonder whether you understand what is meant by the terms "capital intensive industry" and "barriers to entry" (both are economics jargon).

For your education: A capital intensive industry refers to industry which requires large initial investment sums in order to begin operation (eg. Mining, Power Production, Oil Refining, etc.) A barrier to entry refers to conditions which reduces the probability of firms from entering the market succesfully,

[Scientisticsoviet]

@TheOldGrady Or at all; Examples include the previously mentioned capital intensity, but could also refer to things like high economies of scale, natural monopoly, government regulations, etc.

[TheOldGrady]

@Scientisticsoviet ...duh. I'll bet you wonder about a lot of things.

Now go get over yourself, you're highly overrated.

[Scientisticsoviet]

@TheOldGrady What? Overrated? Who has rated me? What are you talking about?

Seems like you just committed red herring. Please actually respond to my comments.

[TheOldGrady]

@Scientisticsoviet OK. This is in response to your “What are you talking about?” question: I took a stab at levity, you responded with glaring arrogant condescension. Then I read your profile. Wow. I had no Idea that I was corresponding with a deity. You seem to have rated yourself, and you’ve been extremely generous in the area of high regard. Seems like you just committed "missed the obvious point". Please make a better attempt at understanding my comments. Have a fine day!

[Scientisticsoviet]

@TheOldGrady "I had no Idea that I was corresponding with a deity." Where do I say I am a deity? I don't even believe in the supernatural.

"You seem to have rated yourself, and you’ve been extremely generous in the area of high regard."

What rating? Is there a way to rate oneself on youtube? What?

---

In any event, stop with this red herring, bordering on ad-hominem. Or... Do you know what those terms mean?

[goodatbasebal]

George Lakoff talking about Economics & Politics? HAHAHAHA.

Democracy is a disgusting derivative of collectivism. If Democracy has ever been something it could be only be described as a Tyranny.

[PissedFechtmeister]

Powell fails because in a democracy 51% of the people can vote to take away the property of the rich. Furthermore if the rich are the ones who get to decide what type of government to have then they have a good incentive to create a government that protects the rich and everyone else can go screw (which is, in fact, the type of government the US now has). Finally, the US isn't even close to a free market.

[UCIBME]

Very keen insight of neoconservatism!

[Time2Jam247]

IT IS THE REPUBLIC OF AMERICA! IT IS NOT A TRUE DEMOCRACY! DID ANY OF YOU DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS GO TO SCHOOL? A true democacy IS when EVERY CITIZEN HAS EQUAL REPRESENTATION, NOT a few over others ALL INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT OR LEADER. WE JUST WISH TO SIMPLY BE REPRESENTED> THATS ALL THE PEOPLE WANT. AND THE GOVERNMENT CANT EVEN DELIVER ON THAT. REVOLT! REVOLT AGAINST TYRANNY! THIS IS NO DEMOCRACY, PROTECT YOUR FAMILIES. BECAUSE WHEN IT COMES RIGHT DOWN TO IT. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT ARE.

[Time2Jam247]

Its all about the protection of the Super rich and their goals. The rest of us are financial and literal cannon fodder. As far as im concerned my only defense policy is a gun. You try to take away my freedom, or my posessions, the policy i can give you is to tell you not to poke you head in my doorway. OR YOU WON"T HAVE ONE!

[sagitarian000028]

I love it when people say corporations are a great thing to democracy and they say corporations are privately owned and should and should not be owned by the government.To me corporations are like tumor growths to national democracy they spread and take controle of a system and establish their own rule. killing the concept of the country and they themselves become kings. If we are concerned about big government beconcerned about the ones that are not democratically elected

[Experiment47]

How can capitalism lead to democracy when capitalism is, by it's very nature, undemocratic? Private businesses are always authoritarian.

[ucannotescape]

This guys nothing but a Progressive Democrat = Socialist Commie.

[ZerqTM]

3:35 lol its funny to hear bush use the world evolution sins he has been cited as saying the jury is still out on biological evolution...

either he is just apeasing the religious right or he is very selective..

[cherylwens]

Why must everything lead to democracy? I couldn't give a damn if some quack was to exercise his inalienable right to expression. I just wanna hear my doc speak when I'm sick.

[gensoholicar]

free from want? free from fear? wtf does that mean?

if you want to be free from want and fear, why not just kill yourself?

[PissedFechtmeister]

@gensoholicar The Progressive idea of freedom has nothing to do with freedom. It has to do with using force to take from the haves and give to the have nots. This system will always fail because eventually people realize that there's no point accumulating wealth if it's going to be stolen by the government and instead one can simply become a leech and have everything handed to them. Then no one will have freedom from want because eventually there'll be no one to create wealth.

[Scientisticsoviet]

@PissedFechtmeister From what I understand, progressive normative economics is rarely about simple wealth transfer (tax on wealthy income and transfer to low income persons), if at all. Often it has more to do with providing equal opportunity to best utilize a person's potential (such as providing a low cost education to bright, yet possibly low income people), or funding typical functions of government, like security or basic infrastructure, with taxes on unproductive capital (eg. unused land).

[successfulbuild]

"'free market' doesn't exist. There is no such thing. All markets are constructed. Think of the stock exchange. It has rules. The WTO [World Trade Organization] has 900 pages of regulations. The bond market has all kinds of regulations and commissions to make sure those regulations carried out. Every market has rules. " --George Lakoff

[BrettDunbar]

@successfulbuild If those "regulations" did not exist. The market would still exist and would be more powerful. The people would benefit more from this than anything else.

[bellatruth]

Free markets are't controlled by govt. They are just you and I doing whatever we like to produce, buy and sell FREELY. The political machine has two sides that cooperate to march society toward total control and loss of individual choice.. Watch it march; Left ,Right, now Left, another Right, now a BIG LEFT

They are both the tools of tyrants whose desire is to destroy freedom and rebuild the world with privileges... granted by them, of course. No freedom in that.

[thesparitan]

okay why do you say that

there are lots of countries with free markets and in unfree people

[seigneurvoland666]

this is true. 100% freedom will exist once the state is abolished. Markets must be controlled by actual workers. and they must be run democratically. Free markets and competition is nothing but a game.

[selurbrainonebay]

what about the idea that in the middle east many islamic groups r populour and radical, and can couple that with the ability to unite a excluded people from the economy in to groups dangerous to the relatively well off sectors of Iraq, which i suppose mainly consist of foreign workers employed there by the U.S. companys. None of whom really fit the scheme of well off iraqis suporting democratisation. u hav 2 wonder will market anarchy now forever be tied to western democracy in Iraq?

[ludachris475]

Judaism is the highest stage of capitalism.  Bar Mitzfa is the highest stage of Judaism.

[typeinbolivianbug]

bar mitzfa is the highest peak of life

[ludachris475]

The Nazis were right to exterminate such filthy vermin.

[SkeffingtonP]

Let me guess you are liberal.

[ludachris475]

Just as always in capitalism... a pyramid is built with the wealthy Jew at the top subjugating the rest.

[DoubleGauss]

Yeah, and a loser like you will always be at the bottom where you belong.

[ludachris475]

I will be at the bottom of the pyramid with beside my fellow Jewish bottomfeeders.

[rsaswest]

Thanks for this George Lakoff video. He helps to differentiate "theory" from "data."

[rsaswest]

(Part 2 of 2):

Freidmanites never attribute economic failure to Freidmanite theory. Instead, they blame GOVERNMENT. They will also tell you that a "free" market has NEVER ACTUALLY EXISTED.

This is indeed IRONIC.

If a "free" market has NEVER existed, how could it possibley be that it is an empirical FACT that the "free" markets are best?

That's like saying the Chimera is the scariest beast in the forest. Without a Chimera to evaluate, how can my claim be empirical?

[blaziermissy]

lol......wow.

[rsaswest]

People who support Milton Freidman's radical privatization policies, otherwise known by their advertising slogan "free markets," say that radical privatization leads to the "best economic system" which in turn leads to "the greatest wealth for the greatest number of people." They state this is an empirical FACT.

When Freidman's policies fail, the Freidmanites say the failures are due to government interference, not Freidman's ideas. This is ironic. (Part1 of 2)

[Advocate1234]

What an intellectual lightweight Demagogue.

Our Constitution does not create a Democracy; it creates a limited Constitutional republic.

Capitalism never creates democracies. One cannot vote to steal from your neighbor.

Bush was talking about Saddam's tyranny.

[MarxBakuninMe]

"What an intellectual lightweight Demagogue."

Conceited much?

[bohemond4]

George Lakoff is a Socialist. Kind of Like Barack but way way worse.

[honestkaos]

I agree ImperatorZor, these things are always contingent on local variables.

[bohemond4]

Actually this country was supposed to be a Republic, a country governed by rules and laws. Democracy is majority rules, the founding fathers never intended for this to be, They wanted to create a Republic. This clown is a Socialist. He talks of the "Moral mission" of the government which is another way of saying Socialism. He is a dangerous person in as much as alot people believe his babble.I would LOVE to debate this nutjob

[DEVRIMCI2007]

u fool socialism is the rule of the majority

[JonathanM00r3]

That is merely one perverted type of democracy. Democracy generally defined is merely rule by the people. Certain forms of democracy allow for minority rights within a democratic framework. An example, is liberal democracy.

[coolbreezed]

This guy is missing one thing. True conservatives/or classical liberals do not care if China, Singapore, or Saudi Arabia are democracies or anarchists, just so long as they trade w/ us.

The only person whose freedom from fear or want you have to be concerned with is yourself and your family. Thats individualism. Thats freedom.

[powerboy101]

Does capitalism lead to democracy?? NO. Why? In a true authentic 100% pure capitalistic society, there is no formal government or tax system or written law.

[ImperatorZor]

Capitalism has nothing to do with free speech, freedom of religion or anything else. It is an economic model, nothing more. Their have been tryannical states that have operated on free market economies (Monarchical states and Fachists for the most part as well as China). This goes with the US conception of freedom as an all or nothing thing, which has never been the case, you can have the right of free enterprise and be clobbered by the big guys before get anywere, but not critise your leaders

[theonemuffin]

You're very right, and I'm glad that at least someone here understands that politics and economics are separate schools of thought.

[SeanCitizen]

Politics and economics may be different words but they are essentially the EXACT same thing... except one uses guns.

[d3p3ch3mod3]

I believe it's both

[hearingjuan]

How can you not think that the way an economic model of a nation is structured, wouldn't directly affect the politics of that nation? Sure Monarchical states and Fachist states, as well as China, are able to supress the pressure, but to think that pressure doesnt exist is waaaay off. Your basically saying that there is no opposition in these states of free market, but there is, the ones that prosper are the ones that realize you just have suppress(or oppress) resistence. I.E. -> Russia, China

[ImperatorZor]

As i said, there are plenty of states which were not democratic and quite tyrannical, Monarchies, the Fascists (they were very opposed to Socialists). Freedom is far more complex than an on/off thing. You can have certain freedoms without others, You could have a state with freedom of mobility, but not of speech and you can have apsolute property rights without either freedom of speech, Religion and Mobility. There are Democratic Socialists and Tyrannical Capitalist states out there.

[frehtebsi]

I don`t understand what some visitors of this page mean by "Lakoff should stick to linguistics". Saying that they seem to suppose that politics and linguistics are two different things without any connections. But what Lakoff trys to show all the time is that there are connoctions and that the way people define reality with words decides about the way the think and act. It is important to know who defines freedom in which way and why.

(Sorry for my english)

[Omnis2]

Lakoff is wrong on that last sentence. It's not part of the conservative notion of freedom-- it's the neo-conservative notion.

[Kikoman97]

Interesting, but if the government saw its citizens getting that much power and still cared to keep controlled markets it would most likely end the free markets right then and there. And let's not forget how America got to be Democratic Republic. England over-controlled them so they rebelled. Quite the opposite of this theory.

[Toxiferin]

I am a liberal and i respect Mr. Lakoff but i think that his views about capitalism and how the markets work are somewhat unorthodox to put it mildly. He should stick to linguistics.

[guitarboy22j]

How is calling his views "unorthodox" a critism?

[Toxiferin]

Hmmm, maybe you're righ, i have probably chosen a wrong word. I wanted to say that his thinking about the functioning of markets is seriously flawed.

P.S. I'm not a native speaker :)

[guitarboy22j]

No problem.

[CultureWar77]

I think he was trying to say "radical" or "extreme" in a nice way. He was right by the way, George should stick to linguistics.

[frehtebsi]

I don`t understand what you mean by "he should stick to linguistics". Saying that you seem to suppose that politics and linguistics are two different things without any connections. But what Lakoff trys to show all the time is, that there are connoctions and that the way people define reality with words decides about the way the think and act. Is ist important to know who defines freedom in which way and why.

(Sorry for my english)

[nickreed11216]

This man assumes we live in a democracy here in the united states. I would like to see how he defines democracy.

[adeart72]

isn't a democracy when a people have the power to choose their own leaders? doesn't this make the u.s. a democracy? we have elections and the free exchange of ideas...

[MadBam163]

Actually a democracy is a governmental system in which the people are the rulers -- make the laws. A republic is a system of government in which the people (or at least part of the people) have a significant say in the government -- choose their rulers. Since the USA has a system in which rulers are elected and the people vote on some laws (i.e. constitutional amendments) it is a Democratic-Republic.

Good question though; a lot of people are confused about that. Just thought I'd let you know.

[RobertLVogel]

Naomi Klein's recent book "The Shock Doctrine" describes the damage done by conservatives. Compare with Lakoff's explanation.

[maxtres]

Report a Thought Crime. Do not become a victim of Crimethink! Do Not Watch the vid, "One Nation Under Siege" or you will be reported by the Though Police. The "Strict Father Family" also known as "Big Brother" is nonsense, no such concept exists! Watch TV, Sleep, Consume! LOL

[screamerican55]

American Corporate Socialist VERSE Communist /Marxist Oligarchy

[screamerican55]

1. American Corporate Socialist develop marketing "spin", spokesmen, think tanks, & technology to oppress or confuse critics.

Communist /Marxist Oligarchy don't! They will just kill you or send you to be toucher or brainwash you before they send you to reeducation camps.

[screamerican55]

2.American Corporate Socialist sometimes crack down & destroy "unions" expand slave wages, over take homes, property & small mom & pop stores. replace it with mega stores.

Communist /Marxist Oligarchy don't. they just imprison unions then lease it out to "American Corporate Socialist" for a profit!

[screamerican55]

3. American Corporate Socialist buy and sell politician, control local committees resources. Map out domestic & foreign policy on behalf of the "people" of America!

Communist /Marxist Oligarchy don't! They ARE the politicians and sometimes ARE the corporations that control the local resources. Map out domestic & foreign policy on behalf of the "people."

[screamerican55]

4. American Corporate Socialist obey pollution laws just enough to make them self look clean & responsible for their markets.

Communist /Marxist Oligarchy don't! They believe " If everywhere is Polluted! then Nowhere is Polluted!"

[screamerican55]

5.American Corporate Socialist create war & map out 3rd world conquest, Yes the mayhem creator & market bubble blowers built up such insane profit and a demand for wars! There must be more!!

Communist /Marxist Oligarchy does! They believe my enemy is my partner in "profit" and in "crime."

[screamerican55]

6. American Corporate Socialist define their motto as" greed is good! greed defines who we are!

Communist /Marxist Oligarchy don't! They define their motto as "wealth is good! wealth define what we want to be!

7. American Corporate Socialist will out sorce anything for profit! Communist /Marxist Oligarchy don't! They'll in sorce anything for profit

[screamerican55]

8. American Corporate Socialist use "Defend Freedom" in their propaganda( as in Defend Freedom to kill, steal, torture etc.) Communist /Marxist Oligarchy don't! They use "For The People" in theirs ( as in For The People of so & so to kill, steal, torture etc.)!

9. all and all one man's dolly lame-a is another man's native American. propaganda is everywhere. It harder and harder to tell what is spin what is not.

[Memento94]

George Lakoff: Don't think of an elephant - Know your values and frame the debate. Excellent book. Would recommend it.

[BeatBuddy]

I second that.

[freesk8]

I'm a free market fan, but this guy is right that you can't impose a free market by force. Free markets need to evolve organically, as the did in the 13 US colonies. If the Iraqi's don't want freedom, we can't impose it on them because the people are the ultimate guardians of their freedom. Time for American's to get theirs back as well...

[OctoBox]

Saudi Arabia lives under Sharia Law, they are Wahhabi Sunnis,They are not free. In a free-market economy, which the United States is (NOT) you would have a tax rate of 5-7%. This would be truly capitalistic (in the Founding Father's sense of free-market liberalism). In a Socialist country you would pay around 40 - 70% in taxes (taxation on income). In the U.S we pay between 25-40% (taxation on income). We are moving swiftly toward a Socialist regime. We are Social-Capitalist (Big Government).

[reconstructreality]

You based your whole argument on the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

[zimm0311]

He's not saying that you should take away property at face value. I agree, the principles our country was founded on established a great system of law in order to create a country to best serve the needs of it's people, not the other way around. However, the present state of government is not one tha represents those ideas and therefore has deviated from these principles. When he says that in theory the idea will work, he and they are absolutely right.

[ben54222]

and your point being what? that democratic America has done more for the good of man well lets just all turn over our property and get together and dish it out evenly and we all can decide together as one and live happily and in harmony and respect and love one another where we don't have to worry about the terrorists or rapists thugs and murderers where we can wear tweed or turbans oh it will be fabulous we can all be the same and contribute and no one will ever have an opinion