True News 39: The Auto Collapse - Real Causes

[elmaxidelsur]

unions are evil... shure...

[Ultramerican1]

quick comment on your opening statement, if labor goes up universally 20% then all resources would cost 20% more to produce effectively adding an all around 20% raise in cost and therefore value

[verstwo2]

but if wages fall %20...corporations tend to pocket the difference rather then pass it on to consumers.

[Ultramerican1]

completely agree verstwo2,

once again stef is correct that the worst most greedy people are drawn to the upper echilons of even the private sector

[verstwo2]

As far as I can tell Stef has a hard on for the private sector and like to place total blame on the state. As in the state is the source of all evil. I disagree with Stef on this. The mark up on some products can be as high as %1000 or more.  As if %20 rise in wages need be passed on to the consumer. Furthermore, resource aren't produced, products are. Resources include labour....as in human resources. no offense but I feel a need to set the record straight.

[Ultramerican1]

so if a resouce is not produced then they grow 2x4 trees right?

[SeiferothX]

Give me ONE historical example of this. ONE.

[verstwo2]

The auto industry is a 'hyper violent environment'? Great rhetoric.

False analogy - Unions are not corporate monopolies, they are workers collective bargaining for better work conditions and rights. Stef would have have workers locked in sweatshops for $1 an hour. There are many examples of Union negotiated befits that have nothing to do with wage regulations. Of course ignoring that make your point stronger. Stay classy.

'I look forward to your donations'....classic.

[Ultramerican1]

these non wage related benfits E.G. healthcare are the entire reason that the industry SHOULD be dead! no one pays taxes on these benefits like they would a wage earned. I'm guessing your a member by your pro union bs

[verstwo2]

no I'm not in a union. All benefits are wage related, Benefits are usually negotiated in lieu of wage increases...therefore benefits are always a part of your wage. I don't understand you problem with not paying taxes...I thought your were against taxes. Besides benefits are considered an expense not part of your net income.

[Ultramerican1]

I am against taxes in general, however I am just as against tax dodging benefits.

and if those benefits counted aginst your taxes I bet they wouldn't be so eager to receive them.

if everyone payed all taxes they TRULY should then all taxes could be cut in half and we would still have a surplus

[verstwo2]

they're not tax dodging, their tax exempt, as many expenses are (ie business expenses, baby expenses, etc.).

I find your pro/anti tax position very confusing. Taxes aren't solely of paying down the deficit.

[peteheatb3]

First of all, thank you for the videos :) . I have one question that I just didnt know about-what are the aspects that allowed for european companies to survive, while american companies have largely failed? I imagine, the health care system works much differently in the auto industry of europe/japan, and my guess is this is the main reason, but i didnt know for sure.

[LiberalofLiberty]

i think there are less than 'hundreds of thousands' of pages of regulations

i think it's in the ten thousands.

[verstwo2]

Sef's know to exaggerate...a lot.

[mikeybrumbrum]

...cont'd

Choice = Waste

Choice is waste because there may be 50 shops in birmingham, selling the same 100 ranges of wallpaper. The wallpaper is made in birmingham, but shipped here from a distributor in leeds, where all the manufactured product is sent to.

It may sounds trivial, but when multiplied by its factors, its a huge waste of my money.

But everyone is "targetted" to move faster, so no one can sort it out. and who cares as long as ther is FALSE profit in it for them ?

Ive seen it al

[PanzerDivisionBOM]

@mikeybrumbrum:

What a fascinating conundrum! I'll bet my left shoe that the problem in your analysis, is the "we":

"We produce[...] We transport[...]"

Unless YOU, personally, are in charge of production and transportation, then it is not "you" who do these things.

But let's say that it were you who did it. Let's say you're in charge of production and transportation of wallpaper in Birmingham, and - for some reason - you chose this idiotic model of infrastructure. What would that reason be?

[Ultramerican1]

because as you might have guessed, he is a dipshit!

good point panzer.

[mikeybrumbrum]

We transport the same goods two or 3 times in the uk, and could end this recession, virtually, by sorting that out.

We produce in manchester, trunk to birmigham, deliver to manchester (next door to the manufacturer). This happens all day long, and lorries carrying identical freight, pass each other on motrways all day long. All in the name of "Choice" and "efficiency".

The transport system of the uk, is CRAP (i have a cpc national, and so AM qualified to speak on this issue).

Choice = Profit

[heavenlyboy34]

Stefan, thank you for all that you do in educating and promoting individual liberty!

[ClumsyRoot]

Very interesting!

[FreiheitKampfer]

2nd correction:

you have an increase in the costs of production triggering a decrease in demand as a result of supply contraction.

you also have a market reallocation from all the liquidized capital and influenced employees, as well as an increased incentive for productive automation.

There is also a general increase in the costs of living (all else static)..

I doubt that there is anyone who can truthfully claim to know all the +/-(- > +) effects of these coercive actions.

peace.

[JTsmiley14]

Are you suggesting that things went awry because managers couldn't do the right thing because of unions who managed themselves? Are you suggesting that unions always or nearly always equal violent coercion? "Leave alone the few govern the many and the many shall reap the benefits," is what I'm getting.

[stefbot]

I'm pretty sure that it is more than a suggestion, but my major beef is with the state, not with unions...

[JTsmiley14]

Understood, but it seems to me that you can't be against coercive institutions and be against unions. Granted, one can be against the particular actions or opinions of a union, but it seems to me an anarchist would see a union as the very core of exercising self-determination. In theory, at least.

[hughtub]

My solution would be a return to bare-bones vehicles like the Model T. Perfect the engines, chassis, suspension, frame, door etc. but let 3rd party manufacturers produce a wide variety of: seats (minimalist mesh for me), stereos, headrests, etc. More like Iphone + 3rd-party apps. Make a great, but bare-minimum design, then let have local stores carry a much wider variety of interior alternatives. There's also far too little interchangeability of parts between cars made by the same maker.

[chriswroads]

I have been saying this for years.

The parts were all interchangeable on old VW bug bus and coupes. My buggy ran all day on 10 bucks in fuel and had almost 100hp. If anything broke I could always find parts easily at junkyards. Even though it was a 50 year old design.

[Stargazer5781]

I was looking through Practical Anarchy again the other day and was reminded how in your section on health care, you use automobile manufacturing as an example for why nationalization of industries is so problematic, and then break it down step by step. "Does anyone ever suggest we should nationalize car production?" I laughed out loud.

[davidcarrig]

For at least the last 10 years, the Toyota, Nissan, Honda, VW, BMW have been priced higher than the comparable GM, Ford, Chrysler. American car companies didn't fail because they were priced too high. They failed because they were not designed and engineered as well as the competition.

[WallyAnti]

Well put and I agree. The elite are teaching their progeny that ethics are important but ethical behavior shouldn't be expected. This is largely because the public is ignorant or acquiesce to a lack of ethics. The result is that ethical behavior becomes an unnecessary handicap which seems like foolishness. Religion used to keep people in check, but has become an existentialistic pacifier.

I vote by dollar because It seems to be the most potent thing I can do. Unfortunately I have very few.

[newexperiment]

Wait a moment. it only goes up 20% if* the labor portion of the production cost is 100% of the production cost. Which is never the case...Pretty sure in the auto industry the labor cost as a fraction of production + distribution + advertisement + research, design, and testing costs is something around 5% or less. so the price should go up 20% of 5%.. or 1% or less. Nice try tho. All labor unions do is force the guys making 100 million a year to make 99 million a year. sry.

[savvysymbiont]

"really good managers can work anywhere"...lol!

[wadams19]

"they've become health care companies that subsidize the provision of medical expenses by selling calls"

hahaha. great line.

[nitarna]

Why cant I watch in HD? Crappy quality!

[hunga224]

Då måste du oppdatera din pc hardware.

[pedantologist]

나도 HD시청 불가능하거든

[hunga224]

High Definition

[nitarna]

Rätt säker på att du mener mjukvare, det hjelper ikke att jeg kjöper en ny hårddisk eller grafikkort.

Men, nei. Det har inget att göra med mjukvare heller.

[hunga224]

mjukvare is software(av typen Unix (Linux, OpenBSD, ...), Microsoft Windows, Novell NetWare og andre.

Hårdvara is hardware(cpu,ram,hard disc,monitor,keyboard.mouse ect.

My comment was supposed to be light hearted Norwegian humour.

[gosmokesome]

OMG its stefan molenyeux from freedomainradio!

[iorbit]

It is!? OMG You're right! It IS!

[chriswroads]

If the people wouldnt have fought back against gm they would have got nothing. Dont ever think that because people got paid a descent wage that puts companies out of business. These companies were goners because the system is garbage and Im glad the workers could get something before it collapsed.

Banks dont have unions and there in way worse shape than car companies. Whats there excuse? Stupidity?

Iron law of institutions kills company's, not wages.

[RuddODragonFear]

Why would you even bother to respond by repeating the same belabored points that Stef directly debunked in this video? And what about the workers now that the system is hopelessly broke?

Jeeezus, it's like talking to a guy that believes rocks fall upwards, showing him with a rock falling downwards, and then he repeats "STILL ROCKS FALL UPWARDS LALALAALALA".

[chriswroads]

?????

I fail to see how a debunking. If the car industry was killed by union then why are the banks broke?

Im confused what this has to do with rocks falling up.

instead of agreeing with everything you hear why not think about it first.

[CorrosionX3]

Because of the fiat monetary system, duh

[chriswroads]

Because of the fiat monetary system, duh

This gets two thumbs up and I get thumbs down for thinking? Homer Simpson is that you out there?

[DaveDoggOwns]

"These companies were goners because the system is garbage and Im glad the workers could get something before it collapsed."

Whow, I never thought I'd see the day when statists finally admit that the bailouts have nothing to do with helping the economy but instead are just an attempt to loot what is left of the mess they created.

Those companies were goners because they have a ridiculous amount of union rules forced upon them, most if not all based on fallacious Marxist thinking.

[chriswroads]

Then why are the banks broke?

And why would stef have to do two videos on the unions twice in a row.First being very hard on them and this one just kind of tip toing around it. Im not a statist But if two patys both do evil I fail to see how one is less evil than the other. Im just keeping you honest dont shot the messenger.

[Sight099]

don't see where you pulled that out of your ass

nothing is evil or good

[chriswroads]

and there is no black or right.

Overthinking ruins good valid points

[DaveDoggOwns]

Okay, so you're not going to press charges on someone that murders someone close to you?

[Sight099]

killing someone is not inherently good or evil or any action for that matter

and in all honesty, my family was never close to me, i don't see them even as friends

[DaveDoggOwns]

Okay I am the same way. I express indifference to my family. Let's say someone has sent you a death threat. You have reason to believe this person who has sent you this death threat is likely to try to kill you. Are you really going to fall back on your nihilist and not doing anything about it or are you like every other nihilist who just simply talk the talk but never walk the walk?

[DaveDoggOwns]

I'm not here to argue that nihilism is false. Of course it is true. What I am trying to argue is that nihilism is not a useful in human matters. People may say they are nihilist but no one ACTS as though nothing is inherently good or bad. Human action is purposeful.

[DaveDoggOwns]

I believe Brainpolice has a video on this subject matter, a video i believe is called "There is no such thing as a nihilist".

[D3mi4n]

At least give him a chance, check his book about secular ethics.

He has a very good philosophical argument for objective morals.

[Sight099]

was responding to DaveDoggOwns, but yes, i agree with you

[DaveDoggOwns]

What does broke banks have to do with the auto industry? Those are two seperate issues.

"First being very hard on them and this one just kind of tip toing around it."

He is not "tip toing around it", he is just describing the bigger picture behind all this rather than just a simple arguement from morality.

[chriswroads]

All industry is in the crapper not just auto.

So to pick out auto and then blame the union is silly.

Why are the other industries in the crapper did the union ruin them also? Instead of just shallowly agreeing with issues why not use some logic and independent thinking.

Isnt that what stef preaches?

Agreement is easy, thinking is hard

[DaveDoggOwns]

"All industry is in the crapper not just auto.

So to pick out auto and then blame the union is silly."

Saying that the union did not harm the auto industry because the broken banking system does not have unions is like saying the flu is not bad for you since your friend who is in worst condition than you doesn't have the flu. The fact that the banking system is bad but doesn't have unions in it doesn't mean (statist) unions aren't bad. Correlation does not equal causation.

[chriswroads]

You have no idea what your talking about do you.

Re read my comment. Think before you speak.

[DaveDoggOwns]

Of course, sections of the economy that are weak can negatively effect other sections such as the auto industry. Stef's point was that statist unions are hurting the auto industry. But instead of coming up with an effective rebuttal you respond with a red herring "Then why are the banks broke?"

[chriswroads]

. He singled out an industry and laid fault with the union.

I said its everybodys fault. And that whether or not there is a union they are still doomed. GM now pays 12.50 an hour and there going to renig on there debt. So do you think they will be profitable now? Not a chance.

Hence dont blame the union.

Do you disagree?

[DaveDoggOwns]

1)"Singled out"? When was Stef ever talking about the economy as a whole?

2)Okay, so they are paying people 12.50 an hour. What does that mean exactly? I'm not even really sure what you're trying to point out there.

[chriswroads]

1) this is his second video on the gm unions. First one was harsh this one was watered down and danced around a bit.

2)It means they broke the unions and now they pay there employees 12.50 an hour with no benefits

[stefbot]

My main beef is with the government.

[chriswroads]

I Concur. Your last video was a little harsh on the union.

It would appear that you have some person issues with them that you needed to vent. There are two sides to every coin. I had to show the other side. That is all.

[DaveDoggOwns]

"But if two patys both do evil I fail to see how one is less evil than the other."

Does Stef sound like a guy that would support either the Democratic or the Republican party? We anarchists are done with supporting the "lesser of two evils". Supporting the lesser of two evils hasn't worked in the past 200 something years. Why keep using a failed strategy.

[chriswroads]

You do alot of assuming, and not alot of thinking.

"we anarchist" WTF really WTF

What are you the next republican party.

There are no we anarchist there is only you and me.

There is nothing wrong with descent people disagree

Your absolute belief of your opinion is proof your wrong.

[DaveDoggOwns]

First, you did not originally post to me you posted on Stef's channel. I'm responded to that comment on behalf of Stef or other anarchists that have similiar positions to mine. It is totally okay for me to say "We anarchists". I'm not speaking on behalf of an official political party.

[chriswroads]

Assume = ass + u + me. How do you know Im not an anarchist? Not everyone agrees you know.

[DaveDoggOwns]

"Assume = ass + u + me. How do you know Im not an anarchist? Not everyone agrees you know. "

Okay, right now I'm going to assume you are an anarchist since that last comment implies that you are. Now, even if unions are not the sole cause of the auto industry failing why then would you be glad that they by use of government gained control of GM? They did use statist privielieges in order to impose absurd regulations so why should they be entitled to control of GM?

[chriswroads]

They never gained control of gm. Thats also silly.

They used the system to there advantage.

So what? Could they change it? No. They did what they could with what they had when they had it. I would never blame the poor for for trying to get scraps of gm golden platter. Again ,Gm was giong down it wasnt the unions fault.

[Stargazer5781]

Banks - much of what we're seeing in the bank collapse is a result of government intervention. While it may not have involved unions, it did involve a gun forcing bankers into unwise decisions.

Auto - In this situation, the government force applied was largely a result of union demands. While other factors may have been involved, the presence of the gun in the hands of the union similarly forced the auto manufacturers into unwise decisions. Union violence is largely to blame for this situation.

[chriswroads]

your hypothesis is

Banks collapse from government intervention

Auto collapsed from government intervention.

But the union made the government do it to autos.

Ok so if the banks had no union then who forced the government to regulate the banks. Well since the banks have the money and money controls politicians then I guess the banks over regulated themselves?

Your hypothesis is flawed

[Stargazer5781]

Holy straw-man Batman!

These businesses collapsed as a result of poor business decisions. Government intervention caused poor business decisions. Politicians are lobbied by special interests groups including corporations, environmentalists, unions, farmers, etc. Those who lobbied to interfere with banks did so in order to benefit themselves at the banks' expense. When the union lobbied to interfere with the auto companies, they did so to benefit at the companies' expense. Collapse ensued.

[chriswroads]

"Those who lobbied to interfere with banks did so in order to benefit themselves at the banks' expense."

Who exactly? Was it the unions? Who is those ?

Let me simplify this. So do you think that if GM never had a union they would still be profitable even though no one buys there crappy cars?

Your dancing

[DaveDoggOwns]

"So do you think that if GM never had a union they would still be profitable even though no one buys there crappy cars?"

There is no way you can conclude that if they had no statist unions that GM would still be making crappy cars. If they weren't making good cars people wouldn't be so pissed they are going broke.  I've been argueing this whole time that GM is going broke because of statist unions.

[chriswroads]

The union didnt kill the electric car.

The union didnt design crappy cars

The union didnt decide to go to on demand manufacturing

The union did not decide to outsource jobs

The union did not decide to build huge amounts of cars while at the same time not selling any.

The unions did the work that is all.

This is like blaming the housing crisis on the guy who framed the house because he charged to much

it sickening

[grumpone]

@chriswroads Let's say that all you state is correct. So what? They are where they are, bankrupt and the only moral end to this is for them to go through bankruptcy and not being bailed out by YOUR money. If you want to send them a donation to save them, go ahead, but you cannot point a gun on me and others and FORCE us to pay for the thieves and incompetents.

[DaveDoggOwns]

"Ok so if the banks had no union then who forced the government to regulate the banks."

The same group of people that instilled economic fallacies in the minds of the auto unions.

"Well since the banks have the money and money controls politicians then I guess the banks over regulated themselves?"

Maybe, but ussually this regulation is done to keep up the status quo of a lack of competition.

[chriswroads]

The same group of people that instilled economic fallacies in the minds of the auto unions.

So now it wasnt the unions it the same people who killed the banks that conned the unions?

Who is this group?

Maybe instead of blaming unions you should blame this "group" because by your logic they also took down the banks.

[DaveDoggOwns]

The point is you were asking who asked for regulation on the banks and I was trying to say that people have been brainwashed by academia, public schools, etc that banks should be regulated. These same sources are also sympathetic to the desires of unions and thus the unions have garnered support for statist priviliege.

[chriswroads]

When management messes up blame the worker.

Screw the poor why pay them at all. Think about how much more money gm could have made if they didnt have to pay them at all. They would be the most profitable business in the WORLD. HEIL GM !!!

[DaveDoggOwns]

I'm not blaming the "poor" or "the worker". Most workers of the world are not involved in unions. I'm blaming statist auto unions that impose absurd workplace regulations that they ordinarily wouldn't be able to do in a free market union.

[chriswroads]

Your right. Enjoy your 12.50.

Let the free market decide your pay.

Oh wait we dont have that.

So I guess the slave owners will decide what you get instead.

ENJOY!!

[DaveDoggOwns]

I agree we are not in a free market. That still doesn't rationalize statist unions. All that does is make the problem worse. Statist unions are just another arm of government bureucracy.

Your wages are determined by supply/demand. Not "the slave owners". You are totally out of touch if you are going to equate voluntarism with violence/slavery.

[chriswroads]

WTF man really. The airlines broke the union. Remember that? Are they making money now? Your planes are falling from the sky because they pay the pilots 16,000 a year. Look it up I promise you it true. Immigrants fix these planes that are piloted by little kids. Listen to the black box recording of the last plane that went down. Supply in demand shit what a joke.

If you believe that then wait for santa clause come christmas. Corporations and government control wages and thats a fact.

[DaveDoggOwns]

It is a fact that your wages are set by supply and demand. If the corporations had their way you would get paid zero dollars an hour...but this is not the case.

What? Pilots are killing themselves becuase they are getting paid 16,000 a year? That just defies logic. Most pilots get paid well over 30,000 a year and tend to be in their mid-thirties and forties.

[chriswroads]

Shaw, 24, made $16,254 a year, although she could have earned more if she worked extra hours, said Roger Cox, NTSB's aviation safety operations group chairman.

What, What was that you were saying?

I know pilots that fly that same airplane they make the same amount on contract. Look it up .

[chriswroads]

Would you like me to do the math for you.

Thats 8 bucks an hour with no benefits.

The same as walmart.

Thank god there was no union becuase if there would have been this crap would have never happened

I hope you dont believe me and you check this yourself.

[DaveDoggOwns]

I highly doubt most pilots get paid only 16,000 a year. What's the point of going to through all that training just to do a boring job with ardious work hours for only 16,000 a year. It just defies logic. I'm pretty sure you are thorn picking.

I know most of the unions in the auto industry are statist. I don't have much to say about unions elsewhere. Enough with the straw men.

[chriswroads]

That was a copy and paste from the huffington post.

I like to deny things to. It takes 20 plus years to make money being a pilot.

Yeah lets not compare and contrast huh.

I just read a gm memo 10 min ago. dont worry about the union anymore. most of GM cars will be shipped in from china by 2012.

Ha you suckers are conned so easy.

Only in America would you blame the problems on the only people who try to help you.

You deserve what you get. Good luck

[DaveDoggOwns]

I don't know whether that GM memo is true or not but what is worst: having the government and statist unions prop up inefficient jobs and make companies go broke or allowing GM to fullfill the needs of consumers by outsourcing?

I allready told you I'm in opposition to statist unions, not free market unions. If you straw man me one more time I'm done talking here.

[chriswroads]

WASHINGTON (AP) - The investigation into the commuter plane crash in upstate New York that killed 50 people in February has exposed the long hours and low pay of some regional airline pilots. Lawmakers now are wondering if such working conditions are more widespread and pose safety risks.

Im sure glad the union wasnt there to screw everything up. Free market yaaaaaa!!!

[DaveDoggOwns]

First, you said there was no free market. Now you saying that plane problems are caused by the free market. Make up your damn mind. I really don't know the situation and what ever laws are in place over there so I'm not going to respond. All your doing is your bringing up distant and complex issues that have nothing to do with the auto industry and then expecting me to illicit a response. They way you debate is very deceptive and corrupt.

[chriswroads]

it was Sarcasm.

Compare and contrast pal

they both take government bailouts

they both blame the unions for there financial problems

They both broke the unions and still are not profitable

This belief that somehow people coming together to fight evil statist corporations somehow bankrupts them while the ceos take home on average 411 times the average worker salary.

[DaveDoggOwns]

I do not believe statist corporations (redundancy) are legitimate free market institutions. What should be done is either

a)dismantle these instiutions and return the land and property back to the original owners

b)remove statist privilieges.

Even if we do niether of these things that still doesn't rationalize using the state to increase the power of the unions. All that does is make things worse. The bottom line

corporations = bad

corporations + statist unions = really bad

[chriswroads]

Pilots, he said, are completely demoralized. He spoke of how his pay has been cut 40% and his own pension eliminated. Most of the TV news didn't cover his remarks and the congressmen quickly forgot them. They just wanted him to play the role of "HERO," but he was on a more important mission. He's in my movie.

[chriswroads]

Pilots on Food Stamps

By Michael Moore

He took home $405 this week. My life was completely and totally in his hands for the past hour and he's paid less than the kid who delivers my pizza.

I told the guys that I have a whole section in my new movie about how pilots are treated. In the movie I interview a pilot for a major airline who made $17,000 last year. For four months he was eligible -- and received -- food stamps.

[pretorious700]

@chriswroads As usual, Michael Moore picks an extreme example (intern pilots) and extrapolates it to sell to gullible dopes like you.

[DaveDoggOwns]

"They never gained control of gm. Thats also silly. "

This is what you said: "These companies were goners because the system is garbage and Im glad the workers could get something before it collapsed."

First, you said they did get something but now your saying they didn't get anything. Which is it?

[chriswroads]

"These companies were goners because the system is garbage and Im glad the workers could get something before it collapsed."

First, you said they did get something but now your saying they didn't get anything. Which is it?

I would never blame the poor for for trying to get scraps of gm golden platter. Again ,Gm was going down it wasnt the unions fault.

[DaveDoggOwns]

"They never gained control of gm. Thats also silly."

In your first comment you said THEY DID get control of GM.

"So what? Could they change it? No."

Yes, they bought into Marx's propaganda and started complaining about widespread exploitation. They were calling out to the devil called the state.

[chriswroads]

Do you think I caused the housing crises because I charged the builder to much to frame a house?

[DaveDoggOwns]

Stef allready answered the question regarded the incompetence of management.