Morning Joe: Christopher Hitchens on Afghanistan 10/06/08

[atherforhire]

I expect to get my mind blown whenever Hitchens speaks. But my jaw hit the floor at 8:14. Hitch says 'sorry' then yields for someone else to speak. Never seen that before.

[Superkha]

@atherforhire maybe its just a uk thing....he says "sorry", in a 'could you say that again i didn't hear you' sort of way, because they were all talking loudly and he didnt catch what he said :).

[atherforhire]

No question Christopher Hitchens is a very sharp mind. He is worth paying attention no matter your worldview. I'd argue the people who need to listen to Hitch the most are the people who disagree with him. He certainly made me rethink my ideas of "just war".

I do my best to follow everything Hitchens produces, but it's difficult since he produces so damn much.

[moroney1]

Oh god when he said '' sorry im a bit husky this morning'', so sad :(

[moroney1]

Learned so much from him, its sad his insight into future problems will never be known

[bfoaliali]

No more . . . so sad.

[petepamf]

It baffles me an intellect like Hitchens doesn't know that the CIA are in deep with the poppy growers in Afghanistan.

[PurpleHoneyBear]

I'm still waiting for some sign that Iraq is going to recover from the devastating effects of the war.

[jtolero]

This is before Joe and Hitchens huge fight on television.

[TheMmnpa]

America shouldnt be too surprised if they loose this war.

[no2religions]

@TheMmnpa They won't have to be. They can just teach their kids that they won (re: Vietnam).

[TheMmnpa]

Britain still produces some of the best minds in the world.

[altosax1st]

I wince every time he coughs. Dear Hitchens, please get better. We need your insight grounded in history and literature.

[braydenbeautiful]

@Indijulichar

ahah. Yes, that's more than true.

[Darkside1025]

I'm not one for MSNBC, I think they're a bit biased myself (as are all newstations), but it would be very rare to find an intelligent conversation such as this on another station, such as Fox News.

[towneslives]

the liberation act was a commitment to support democratic movements within iraq, it was nothing to do with military regime change. even if congress had any reasonable kind of democratic mandate, that would be irrelevant. in any case, the iraq war is nothing to do with democracy; anybody who thinks it is needs to grow up.

[lowlypeasant]

I though Scarborough hated Hitch..

[braydenbeautiful]

@lowlypeasant

I thought hitch hated Buchanan.

[writersblock26]

@lowlypeasant I think they had a rapprochement after Joe Scarborough's badly-managed "War on Christmas" segment- I assume that is the clip to which you are referring.

[ManyInfiniteComments]

Liberation can only be achieved if there is a genuine desire to free the populace from tyranny. The U.S. has failed to rally around a common goal for the future of the Middle East, on one hand they want democracy but in another they want their resources at low third world stone age prices. You have multiple actors in both parties arguing for different solutions, none which satisfy either party and therefore mix messages are conveyed that no solution exist. Europe did in the middle of world Chaos

[hunterstl]

I've flip flopped so many times on Iraq/afghanistan and the "war on terror." Everytime I adopt a we are occupying armies, we invited 911, I watch a Hitch video. He's a critical thinker. In two weeks when I've been convinced of the opposite I'll be back. lol.

[TheAqui1a]

@hunterstl Haha I understand how you feel. I go through the same thing when trying to form an opinion on Islam and its followers. I listen to both sides of the argument, but I can't reach an opinion lasting longer than the period before I watch a video with a different argument. -at least I think that's what you mean in your comment.

[51rhm]

Hitchens is unquestionably one of this century's great minds. I strongly diagree with him on religion and most political points but I am mesmerized by his intelligence and even more so, his ability to put his thoughts into words. He is a remarkable brilliant wordsmith and logical thinker. I fear we will loose him to his cancer. I wish him the very best. The world will be a dimmer place without him.

[mizzoulibertarian]

I wonder if India is this nice pleasant democracy. no doubt pakistan is fucked up but....

[baryah]

@mizzoulibertarian as an expat man ,ill tell you ,the only problem India has is its at time too democratic and prefers talking more than actually being not nice to its enemies ,its a good country to be in and to be with or to have on your side(considering the sheer manpower:P that equates to a very big army too^^),especially considering the neighbourhood!

[ModerateGuy738]

Hitchens shakes hands like a girl.

[ulujm]

great mind

[bfoaliali]

Who is the man to the right of Hitchens? I love Hitchens. I wish he would cough in my face.

[danielrep]

@bfoaliali Pat Buchanan.

[Reqrezentin]

He SUCKS!

[TylerHinds]

I disagree with him on religion, but he is right on the war. He is more hawkish than many and I admire that.

[InnerSmile72]

aw fuck hitchens, opium is the bane of humanity in pill or junk form. They could make more money growing fucking dope per acre!

[keereekee]

@InnerSmile72

There is much more money in opiates from an illegal or legal stand point and anyone who has been injured badly on the battle field or in a domestic situation would heartily disagree with you about opium being the bane of humanity as they were administered morphine.

[InnerSmile72]

@keereekee Opium is the most profitable, but only because of the size and strength of the illegal market which could be devastated by sane laws. Pot is easier to grow and sell, so only a complex analysis including all factors will give me the victory in the afghanistan opium/pot debate. Yes of course there are also helpful sane ways to use natural opium forms for healing and painkilling that's not the point! We want them growing dope and less hillbilly heroin in America! Hitchens rules but this,

[InnerSmile72]

@keereekee it's a good point but we need much much less opium in th world, we don't want to encourage it legally or illegally. It should be legal but warred against with prevention, social condemnation, and good science education. Pot is actually good for you, hasn't killed anyone, and won't ruin your entire life. Articles like "Afghan farmers find alternative to opium: marijuana" written 3 years ago show some of the ideas. They're the top exporter of hash as of 3 months ago too.

[tupacalypse88]

@InnerSmile72 good for u?

[hollyzone]

no one wants tot ouch the war on drugs b/c it's too profitable. when one gets more time for smoking a joint than one who rapes a child there is a problem.

[sakdiesel86]

heroin in the us is not even coming out of afghanistan its comes out of south america columbia and mexico. afghan supplys europe

[321lawc]

Iran works with Al Qaeda.

[schwarzblatt]

Ironic that Christopher mentions the Drug War and the US's supposed 'hands-off drug warlords' policy months before it was revealed that CIA operative Karzai's brother Ahmed is a connected heroin kingpin of sorts.

[jhohcable]

Joe's mom loves Hitchens, I wonder how she feels now that Joe "banned" him from the show or some crap.

[michaellee213]

@jhohcable That was on Scarborough Country years ago. I think they must have let that be the past.

[Doazic]

Suddenly Joe and Buchanan become twice as intelligent when Hitchens is with them

[jabom99]

Hitchens is very informative. He knows history and I learned something here.

[Delayar111]

@jabom99 That is something rare on "morning Joe"!

[tonybeir]

hitchens should watch this appearance and take it as an example. I love me some hitchens any way he comes but this was a just a delight to watch.

[iSAW7]

Pat Buchanan's brand of conservatism lays out the best arguments against Hitchens' neo-conservative foreign policy and Hitchens knows it. It would be nice to see these ideas challenged by eachother, but instead we are left with the phony Democrat/Republican paradigm. The foreign policy of the left is absent. What are we left with? Obama has adopted the foreign policy of his predecessor to the dismay of the feckless left.

[simonfishee]

Napoleon ade exactly the same mistake as is being made in Afghanistan.

French troops simple stole from the local population and took away their livelyhoods even in France.

So everywhere French troops went they needed a regiment to guard each supply convoy against the vengeful civilians.

The Duke of Wellington paid for all food and accomodation even in enemy France. So they were welcomed and helped by the local civilians.

So the larger army lost. And the tiny British army got to Paris.

[husky720]

Afghanistan is starting to remind me of Vietnam. A small, strategically insignificant country to which we are sending more and more soldiers against a tenacious enemy in difficult terrain, and an enemy that we can't beat, no matter how much we need to.

[marker853]

we can nuke em!!!!!!

Then people will ask

"what about all the innocent people"????

Well, it was for a greater good. Sacrifices must be made to ensure peace.

[LostSimply]

American peace is not the same as world peace.

[Arcaani]

Why would someone thumb this down?

[bigbossman999]

I'm sorry but the analogy to Vietnam is simply there. Anytime we fight a guerilla movement, people say oh its Vietnam, but there are KEY political, economic, military and ideological differences between the two. In vietnam in 1954 the Geneva accord was supposed to introduce an election, but the French and Americans blocked for fear Ho Chi Minh would win and Vietnam would become wholly communist and therefore estabilshed south vietnam. You had in North Vietnam a very organized, LARGE,

[bigbossman999]

army and government that was fighting a corrupt and unpopular govt in the south. In Afghanistan, the Taliban only have some support in the East, they harbor and give to Al-Qaida top leadership and CAN be defeated. The only similarity to Vietnam is that the Karzai govt is viewed as corrupt and it is very difficult to fight a war in that type of scenario. Ultimately though his corrupt govt is still better than the Taliban and ultimately our goal is to defeat them so they cant support terrorists.

[Sanderniet]

@husky720

nope, here a lot of ANA troops are fighting a few taliban (many of them from pakistan). not a large people's movement fighting the west. the western/afghan troop ratio on our side is much different from vietnam, even after a surge. and there is no working taliban state as there was a north-vietnam. these people are self-destructive.

[husky720]

Fair enough I see your point. I just think that unless Obama is prepared to be committed fully to Afghanistan (which means not giving a transition/withdrawal date only two years from now), then there is no point in continuing. There is also no point continuing if Pakistan can't make clear its intentions. You have the Pakistani military fighting the Taliban in the border regions, but you have a gov't pissed at India, who supports Kabul. What I'm saying is the biggest parallel is ambiguity

[husky720]

You made me actually take a closer look at my arguments. I didn't think of those points. And, since I wrote that statement you commented on, I have come to the conclusion that we need to enforce efforts in Afghanistan, but not at the expense of Iraq, which is in a much better situation as of Dec 2009. I personally think Iraq is just as important if not more important NOW than Afghanistan is.

[genovesachx]

Don't make that comparison. The casualties are not even remotely the same. And there is at least some argument for the war in Afghanistan, whereas VN was strictly an imperialist war.

[mastershake99]

Well, ya missed a few commas and an article in your reply buddy.

[sissyfist]

Wow...I love the mutual ass grabbing at the end of this video...Hitch is smart but being happy about our (U.S.) support of India's proto fascist government is just wrong.

[pocnar]

: - ) I noticed that several times too!

[nader85021]

haha look at 2:37, christopher hitchens staring down pat buchanan, who i am pretty sure doesnt like, since he is so religious.

[dh234]

will the both of us please shut the fuck up?

[dh234]

I turned a comment into a competition with no purpose? You provoked me first, so expect the same in return lad.

[dh234]

what are the chances I have a graduate degree and a great life? probability 1!

AND DID YOU KNOW a "grammar nazi" is youtube slang for ppl who correct minute details across the board? Idiot!

[dh234]

grammar nazis show low intellect

[happosai27]

the guy is right. no wonder he was banned from england lol

[AlongTheFarClimbDown]

Charley Darwin was a plagiarist, just like Joe Biden.

[zxslipperz007]

please explain, you know, if you didn't just pull that out of your ass

[dh234]

"To insure no money and resources go to insane criminals is impossible, but it becomes feasible when you stop funding confirmed ones."

--What I Should Have Written In Bush's Speach 9-11-01

[neftalireyes8]

Wish he would have said more about the inadequate debate format used in the debates held by the candidates.

[MaxwellBennett]

The Husseins were crazy criminals. I approve of this democratization of Iraq, but i believe Iraq will turn into a pawn of America.

[dh234]

Yes, but a law abiding pawn of a sane person following due process is better than a criminal king of a sane person following due process.

[RicoRichmond]

Hitch is class

[rogerrodd]

Hitchens should stick to his brilliant work that exposes the sham that is religion. On the subject of US involvement in the the Middle East, he is a shameless NeoCon parrot.

[AlongTheFarClimbDown]

People of every philosophy commit atrocities.

[rogerrodd]

Religion and the slaughter it breeds in the name of their chosen imaginary friends is the all time leader of bloodshed since recorded history began. All other causes shrink to insignificant numbers of death and despicably inhuman deeds by comparison.

Perhaps your "2 wrongs make a right" philosophy works for you but it never will for any reasonable person.

[AlongTheFarClimbDown]

People wield weapons, not religion. Religious philosophy is no more capable of hurting you physically than any secular philosophy. Be brave.

[rogerrodd]

False logic. Religion is the cause and the warped justification for the insanity. ie:"I'm Pro Life so I'll murder an abortion doctor for God."

Be brave? It takes far more bravery to oppose religions in a world of hostile and obsessed supplicants who are constantly forcing their Gods towards others upon pain of death.

[SockbatReplica]

Agreed anyone can weild a weapon atheist or a believer.. However there is on in addition to the violence that humans in general are capable of other atrocities that only a believer would do. i.e. suicide bombings, genital mutilation.

[AlongTheFarClimbDown]

Sex change surgery, chemo- & radio-

therapies, euthanasia, abortion...

[SChamp]

Hitchens, though i disagree with him on the Middle East, has been a pro-war voice who primarily appeals to reason and intelligence. That alone sets his arguments apart from the typical neoconservative ones. Disagree all you like (and i certainly do) but this is not a parrot, this is an independent thinker who happens to agree with neocons - in broad terms - on Middle East foreign policy. He openly calls them "temporary allies" - does that sound like he enjoys being associated with them?

[rogerrodd]

I will concede that my incorrect usage of the word parrot does not fit Hitchens in his pro war stance.

Insofar as enjoying being associated with them, he has, does, and continues to be their only intellectual voice of their fascist and imperialistic point of view.

It is possible to find common ground with even the likes of some dictators. Their overall image would preclude my association with them. Hitchens owes more to his own integrity that he has displayed by aligning with that sect.

[SChamp]

If he genuinely believes something and considers it rational after long, nuanced contemplation (as he obviously does), then it's a moral imperative that he gives the opinion no matter who he ends up in company of. I disagree with him, but it'd be more wrong of him to not speak up about an issue he felt was both right and very important just because he might get tarred with the neocon brush. His integrity would be much worse off should he shirk such associations out of fear over his self-image.

[rogerrodd]

Hitler had a couple of points that I agreed with but I never would've found myself on his TV show pandering for him. His overall posture made him worthy of never being in the company of any quality person. Moral imperatives run deeper than one issue. Fear over self image is hardly the issue.

[SockbatReplica]

I remember seeing on youtube and interveiw he did on a news show in france but anyways.. He said he still considers himself left leaning and he is for the war in Iraq for leftist reasons.. He has Kurdish friends who are very leftist. And I guess if you were an Iraqi the mentality of Saddam Hussein would be an ultra conservative one especially with regards to crime and punishment. However I still have to disagree with him on the war in Iraq from a tactical standpoint not a moral one.

[kentusmaximus]

It is unfortunate that Great Britain was shoe horned into entering the protracted conflict that is Afganistan and Iraq. Our resources and wallets have been stretched abjectly enough. Pitiful stuff!

[JeffBeck13]

in 1999 the British parliament reciprocated the united states "Iraq Liberation Act" that was passed UNANIMOUSLY under Clinton. All of which happened b4 september 11'th and while Bush was governor of texas.

They did this because it became self evident that we were going to have 2 confront Saddam Hussein sooner or later.

[ohboy321321]

i sharted

[TheParadigmShift]

Google:

'Zbigniew Brzezinski founder of Al Qaeda'

and

'Al Qaeda Doesn't Exist'

[Mike3303]

One of Hitchen's best TV performances. Incredibly insightful.

[BigFlats01]

At around 5:00, that's the first time I've ever seen Christopher Hitchens laugh! Sarah Palin jokes can make anybody laugh

[GoodAvatar]

So did Dick Cheney- shoots his friend in the face jokes. It'll pass. Admittedly, she IS creepy and wierd, but is she honestly THAT creepy compared to Hilary Clinton or Tom Cruise?

[Steven2480]

Check out the look that Hitchens gives Buchanan at 2:37 -- it tells just how much he does *not* like him.

[wackid89]

Yeah, so much hate!

[GoodAvatar]

I don't know if I'd say hate so much as, "why is this man talking on a subject he clearly knows nothing about" look.

[dickydoctor]

I like this guy, he has the right idea about a lot of things. I don't agree with his defense of the war in Iraq. That is a paradox

[manukhan1987]

you havent got the money nor the man power so stop bullshitting if you had it you wont be saying this

[JasonEA]

I can't believe he shook Buchanan's hand.

[MEpianist]

nah, Buchanan is great. He may be way off your view politically, but Pat's sense of humor is great and got along famously with people like Hunter Thompson. Check out his interview with Ali G, lighten up.

[PatriotMcCain]

I really like Christopher Hitchens.

[adwaith2neo]

i agree with hitchens 99% time... but he mad a small mistake... india is not a hindu country... its a secular country

[Sanderniet]

no, he is saying predominantly hindi; Turkey is also a secular country but is still mentioned as 'islamic' because that's what is the main religion (95% there I think, india is much less dominated I know).

[adwaith2neo]

Hi Sanderniet

I got his point... but i felt that a correction was important. Here in India we are having lots of hindu(my religion by birth) rightwing goons who want to take it back to medival ages.. As u correctly mentioned its simillar to turkey in that aspect..but I don't want my country to be like Turkey.. Want to read "God delusion" :) :)

[Sanderniet]

I'm not Turkish so no offense taken :-p.

actually, I dislike the dominant position islam has there but it is in al state affairs quite secular.

wasen't Gandhi one of these middleages advocates?

[Melvin6566842]

Turkey is not a secular country, the state (Kemalists and Islamists!) blatantly propagates a Turk=Sunni Muslim identity and discriminates against Alevi, Christian, Atheists etc.

A good article about this, as well as current censorship and Islamisation was written by Niels Kadritzke on Eurozine(dot)com. It is called

"Headscarves, generals, and Turkish democracy"

google it.

[Sanderniet]

I'll check it, thanks. I do find the 'victim nationalism' of Turkey quite unattractive. my girlfriend is Turkish btw.

[Melvin6566842]

Also Turkey is member of the 55 state bloc OIC, holds even the post of Secretary General. This organisation propagates the "Kairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam" (CDHRI) that bases Human rights on the Sharia, thus advocating different Human Rights for Muslims and Non-Muslims as well as men and women and abolishing the right to change ones beliefs.

The OIC is a main responsible for the Danish cartoon riots and frequently calls for laws banning blasphemy against Islam in the West(!).

[CPGallagher89]

I sure he meant it in the same way he might say America is a christian country. Only by popular belief not government. I mean can you see Hitchens praising a nation for having a state religion.

[AngelLucifer666]

open your nose! He said "predominantly hindi" *pulls out his nose hair*

[videopostman]

@adwaith2neo India is a secular country becuase of Hindu and India is a Hindu country just like UK is a christian country. call us rightwing goon but people like you are self hating moron. and making a Hindu country doent take it backward examples - isreal, uk etc.

[stevenstreet483]

Hitchens for secretary for defense.... I could only wish...

[Mike3303]

Hitchens for president.

[wackid89]

Why can't he! Why doesn't he go into politics!!

[hucklberrydoc]

wasn't born here.

[wackid89]

Who said of the US? I say the world!

[hucklberrydoc]

Oh... president of that. Good idea.

[VodkaStuart]

He used to be in politics actually. He used to be a labour MP for a little while when he was young, but he was sacked.

[windekindje]

please help to free Troy Davis

he will be executed after 17 years innocent in jail 23 octobre

see at my favourites

the witnesses were false treatened by the police

please help winny and Jesus

[AdamSonOfJohn]

Anyone have any statistics on how much Opium profit goes to the Taliban and al-Qaeda?

[georgewbush84]

I wish Hitchens could be President instead of Obama or McCain...

[DaHonestAbe]

He just really doesn't like Clinton does he? LOL!

[54321pbs]

Superstition- stevie wonder

[Phillysoul11]

what is the song at the end

[Boobalopbop]

Sounds like the theme from Fat Albert.

Morning Joe always has great songs.

[mmartini50]

...at ways of regenerating their economy.

[mmartini50]

I saw an interesting analysis on UK TV last night.

Our soldiers are identified as the enemy by a lot of the Afghan population, who know from experience that their own security forces are corrupt and criminal. And our troops are seen to be supporting them.

That's why people go to the Taliban, to seek justice: because the police are the ones victimising their family.

So first,we need to seriously change the Afghan security forces, so that it is on the side of the people. Then look...

[AllenbysEyes]

I also have to add to my other comment... I agree with them wholeheartedly on the debates. I can't get into any of them, they're so forced and phony. I enjoy watching Hitchens debate various people, because he can say whatever the hell he wants, but until our candidates have that luxury (to whatever extent), we're gonna have a forensic let-down when our politicians go at it.

[1classx]

Thanks to Derfglouglou for taking the time to post this. We appreciate your time and effort.

[PXR05]

Hitchens...intelligence & knowledge just spills out of the man, and all delivered with engaging wit and erudition.

[garamri]

Finally! Some real political discussion on the Afghan war.

[clarkanorak]

Ha ha. Pat Buchanan fawning over Hitchens after CH ridiculed his book on WW2.

The Hitch rules!

[AllenbysEyes]

Yeah, and it's interesting that he's so chummy with Joe too given their past history. He also called Buchannan a Catholic bigot on multiple occasions, so it's interesting that they're so respectful towards each other.

[DaHonestAbe]

Maher had hitchens back on after he insulted him and the audience. This guy can get away with anything. Not like its a bad thing.

[lord69z]

I love when Joe kicked him off and now hes back on his show :D

The higher ups know whos good on real discussions.

[Redfingers]

Not only kicked him off, actually shook his hand and invited him back!

[emotionalfilms]

Right I remember that. Well JS is a lot more central and more journalistic than he was when he started television....he's really taken himself out of the fringe cesspool and has to realize how well informed, well spoken and credible Hitchens is. That guy doesn't balk from the cheap seats...he's lived those experiences. I know that Pat B. is a big admirer of his world knowledge.

[alienmoonbase]

Palin is soooo dumb, she thinks "The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." means that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

[alienmoonbase]

the big picture?

THE BIG PICTURE?

Only UFO disclosure will destroy absolutely islamic radicalism.

Ronald Reagan toyed with the idea of UFO disclosure to end the cold war.

Look it up.

[alienmoonbase]

Hitchens for President!

He is an Australian shepherd, Obama is a black lab.

[ninetygnyc]

i learned more about whats going on in afghan in 9mins from chris hitchens then from both of mccain and obama's entire presidential campaign.

[Redfingers]

Spart....

That's exactly why Joe said that he'd like him on the show more often....despite that in an earlier interview about the "War on Christmas," he told Christopher Hitchens that he would never make the mistake of inviting him on again!

[thisisspartacus]

I don't want to seem like a fanboy or something, but you can tell by the lack of follow-ups that neither Joe nor Pat are on par with Hitchens' command of the subjects discussed.

[Inferno41]

I'm impressed that buchanan, rather than chomping at his own bit, was asking questions and bouncing ideas off of Hitchens. Shows just how much gravitas Hitchens has, that he can just run the show like that.

[rudyhenkel]

Always love to see more Hitch! Thanks.

[desiiii420]

he is indeed. but joe seems, well not that intelligent.

[1DeathWalkingTerror1]

who is on msnbc...HITCH ROCKS!