i was genuinly shocked when i found out americans didn't have universal healthcare or an NHS as we have in England, i really didn't believe it for a while.
i could only imagien how terrible it would have been that when my dad went into hospital a couple of years ago we'd have to worry about the costs too.
i feel really sorry for you guys, get one soon, they are great.
Fascinating. Might want to check out my video addressing the undead and their effect on the healthcare debate: Undead and Uninsured. Click on my name to get to my channel. Keep up the good work!
you think a 57% death rate from prostate cancer in england is a sucess. man the US must have it worse it with a 12% chance of dying. hmmm .(England has socialized helath care.
Are you serious? The US a 77% higher death rate from gun shot wounds. But that has nothing to do with the healthcare system. To say that more people die from one specific disease somewhere else means that its because of there healthcare system is a really stupid argument. Did you get that from bill oreilly or something?
I'm not sure if the US will manage to put up a good healthcare system because it still bears the taint of McCarthyism. Which makes it terrified of any form of 'socialism' even though very few Americans even have a clue what socialism ACTUALLY is.
Once America buries Joseph McCarthy. (And that idiotic rugged macho nonsense whilst it's at it.), it'll do worse then many other countries in this sort of thing. (And other things.)
Will the public option remain? I hope so. Will it help with rising health costs? That is the bigger question. How do we deal with the fact that US hospitals and patients pay more for drugs and medical equipment than other countries? Maybe, this is a good first step. Campaign finance reform, so these same corporations that over-charge us cannot control our politicians, would be the next step.
Many things in our lives are 'universal' or 'socially' funded, it's just that people don't think about them. Libraries, Public Schools, Fire and Police stations, not to mention the mailing system and public parks and such. I do not see how one more publicly funded thing would do any harm. If it truly did harm then all our Fire, Police, Parks, Schools, Libraries, Public Transportation ect. in this country would've failed or been turned into some form of Private Funded systems by now.
It seems that people are willing to ignore the evidence of the current system's abject failure and the success of universal healthcare systems in the developed world.
You'd think they'd at least be amenable to the fact that we pay twice as much for our second-rate results as they do under the superior methods.
these "socially funded" things you speak of, are community based only. and your local tax dollars go to these things, to help support the local community. like giving spare change to a bum or giving a few dollars to the "church plate" to help support your church. schools are technically socialism because its on a national level (federal government regulates education) i and others hate it, but its been around for so long, its, forgotten and accepted. point still not made, but ran out of space.
The 1st problem you have is that you already have an immoral system that makes people far too much fucking money for them to let it go so easily. The Repubicans will lie cheat and steal to get what they want and they are lying like hell now. The 2nd problem you have is people who are too willing to listen to blatent liars, Hannity, Beck, Malkin, Bachman... When the BS they serve is listened to so readily, you are already on to a loser. Healthcare should be a basic human right.
Given to us by god? If that were the case then we would either A) Never get sick or B) Be borne knowing how to heal yourself of any ailment.
Where did you obtain this right from? How do you obtain it? Freedom is the lack of dependence on someone or government. Depending on the government to provide you health care is in fact a loss of freedom. Let us consumers rise up together and correct any flaws with the health care market. Dont go tell big daddy government to go fix it for us.
Right's never have and never will be given by "god", I'm talking basic human rights.
And I understand the desire to rise up against against the healthcare market. Done fuck all about it so far though, despite spiraling costs and a disgracful service record, why should now be the jolt.
Government providing healthcare effects you in no way if you still choose private insurance, so that effects you how?
Now that the house has passed the public option let's hope that the senate can pull their heads out of their asses as well.
The rest of the world has proven the public option. America has just become one of the most conservative countries in the modern world and is filled with people who have only a passing acquaintance with reality.
I think republicans will rally with the big time insurance companies and hold it up in the senate...that's what they do, they convince poor American's to believe that big government health care is bad for America while they have top of the line coverage...wake up people we are 50 years behind.
The public option can go to hell and so can health care reform. I don't want a government mandated change to anything that can affect my freedom. There is no argument to this, my freedoms should be protected above all else. Yes even your health care! The only thing the government needs to do is reduce regulation and make itself smaller.
@raininginhell The lack of regulation is what has caused this problem in the first place. If you don't like governments that take care of their people then why don't you move to Somalia. I hear they have almost no government at all.
You can't have freedom if you are dead! Health care reform is trying to keep you alive so that you can be free.
Your argument suggests that the government should control your whole life and decide what education you get and where you will work and what your serial number should be. Gov. mandated health care is OVER the line. I'm sure it's hard for you to see as you enjoy depending on someone else and like free handouts. Healthcare is not a right, it is not in the Constitution and nor should it be. He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.
are you this retarded? your government already do control where you go to school if you go public, you know, district high schools ring a bell? and its not government taking over healthcare you idiot its a public option of health insurance THATS NON PROFIT. meaning its cheaper and more people can afford it, its going to get rid of any of the private companies just give poorer people a viable option. how do you not get this? you have many socialised services why not healthcare?
Why is it over the line? Yes, there certainly is a line but why do you draw it right before healthcare? Why should we allow public education, food stamps, unemployment insurance, police services, medicare, medicaid, firefighters, FDA, DEA, INS, abortion regulations, public highways, the internet, OSHA, 40 hour work week, military, courts, sanitation regulations, polution regulations, consumer safety laws, etc.
Why all of those and not healthcare? And if not those then move to Somalia.
How bout I move to Somalia and you move to Cuba! Lets list off the failed services public education food stamps unemployment medicare medicade FDA FCC EPA post office - due to gov. regulations it will be coming in at over 1bil in the hole next year. BTW the internet is still a private run network. However the government is trying to seize control of it with the net neutrality bill.
Were the USA not Cuba or Somalia.... and if your gonna use a comparison why not use industrialized nations like ours ... let's say England , Canada , France, Germany, who all have a Universal system ... look it's ridiculous to think the USA is on a budget to spend 16 trillion over the next 10 years on there military when a small portion of that can assure that all Americans have health care.... think about it... Health reform will be 1 trillion over 10 years and lower the deficit over time.
That is far from the reason I rally against health care reform. I do it because freedom is more important to me than having a bigger government make sure I have health insurance. Would it be easier to be lazy and just take the hand out? Sure, but the price of this laziness is less freedom.
Exactly what freedom is being taken away? If you are happy paying what you pay, then carry on, if you would like less money going to the back pockets of billionaires and into your's, take the government option.
An extra, cheaper option is not taking anything away, it is only adding.
Guns and gun rights are the only thing that should be taken away.
Laziness ? so that's why you think 46 Million and rising have no health care ? LAZINESS... lol... dude educate yourself about the greed withing this failed health care system.... IT"S NOT JUST LAZINESS.... it's a corrupt system and eliminates taking care of the sick and overpricing everybody that's healthy.... get real
It is unfair to put the post office on that list. The PO isn't supposed to make money, otherwise it would cost $20 per letter. Also you have bought Fox's BS about the net neutrality bill, the government is actually trying to protect your net freedom by making it illegal for ISP's to garden wall your service. The bill is backed by Republican's in ISP's pockets, like McCain who admits he cannot even turn on a computer. Listen before you gram your pitchfork!
I work as a network engineer for an ISP. I know eacactly what the net neutrality bill is and what it will do. Forcing ISP's to operate under those regulations is bad for business and bad for the consumer in the long run. I dont have the space in this box to explain every reason. Please don't spread misinformation about something you dont really understand. Why is everyone here such a communist? BTW the post office is coming in short DUE to gov. regulations.
These organizations fail only when greedy corporate owned politicians (primarily conservatives) destroy their funding.
The internet was created by the government, and is currently under the control of the government. The net neutrality legislation is too keep the internet running as it does now rather than let corporations rape it when the current legislation expires.
You are so full of shit you dont even know it. The gov. did not create what you now know as the internet. They do not run the internet, nor have they ever. The internet is owned and operated by many different ISP's who spend their own capital to lay fiber and copper and connect to each other. There is no gov. involved in this free market process.
Healthcare for profit is innately immoral. The health insurance industry looks at the amount of money they can squeeze from you, and the amount that they must pay to make you healthy, and decide if you should be allowed to live or die. Conservatives know this, hence why they brought out the argument of "death panels". Death panels are exactly what is happening now and only public, non-profit health insurance can stop these death panels.
Cost is determined by supply and demand. Government thinks they can control costs and quality through stricter regulations, but they have been trying this for the last half-century already.
You have to increase supply and business entry into the healthcare sector if you want to improve quality and lower costs, without a detriment to innovation. But, this would require gov. to loosen their stranglehold on the healthcare industry or break up corporatism not happening any time soon.
Increasing our supply of Doctors is essential. The problem right now is that our prices are artificially high due to the fact that health insurance is exempt from anti-monopoly laws. Regulation is to stop the price fixing and introduce a balancing factor.
why are us liberals concerned with silly things like FACTS and the TRUTH...why are we so concerned about helping people....we should be like right wingers and just be interested about scaring people....and coming up with scary buzz words and loaded catch phrases like govt.. takeover and socialism...and the dreaded "obamacare"....if we just compared everything to nazis and the holocaust we would get the media's attention
Why are people so obsessed with having the gov. run every aspect of their lives? I want independence and freedom not government mandates that intend to "keep me healthy" but in reality limit my freedom. BTW why do liberals always have to bring up nazis and the holocaust in every argument they make?
raininginhell...yea it was a bunch of liberals who showed up to washington with a giant sign with a pile of dead holocaust victims at dachua...and compared it to HC reform....and it's liberals like rush limbaugh and glenn beck who call obama the democrats nazis all the time....oops....that's bizarro world
you see that germany has also great problems with heath care due to the fact that the goverment goes to a two class system of health care; this is a mass for the social security of citizens of Germany
No illegal immigrants will be able to buy insurance. Why should they, they get free healthcare at the emergency room. Your racist views makes you not see past the nose on your face. It would be more beneficial to the reform if they were allowed to buy insurance. More money in the pool!
Ok, it's silly to think that illegals are going to buy insurance. So are you proposing to refuse care to uninsured illegals at the ER? Personally I think that sounds like a good idea.
@raininginhell Wow, you really are an inhuman monster aren't you. You really advocate letting people die in the streets. You do realize that "illegals" are human beings too, don't you?
Shameless mixing of metaphors in your title, LV. Ugh!
It seems to me that the "public option" is indeed dead. They aren't talking about making a government-run program available to the general public (such as by expanding Medicare). They are talking about *some* new public health care which is not available to most of us.
Odds are they'll funnel it through the health insurance industry some way, so they can take their cut.
Urgelt wrote "They aren't talking about making a government-run program available to the general public (such as by expanding Medicare). They are talking about *some* new public health care which is not available to most of us"
Even Social Security was a more limited program originally and many on the left thought the compromises necessary to pass it made it similarly impotent but change sometimes comes incrementally. Some progress is better than no progress
Our health care system is basically free. BUT there are long waiting times, months, even longer, for larger operations such as surgery. Then there is the option of private clinics that cost a lot if one is in a hurry and has the money. AFAIK in a case of emergency it is possible to get a surgery from a private sector too, that the goverment then pays to some extent. Atleast I don't see people dying on the streets. Education is free too. Money comes from taxes. We got plenty of those. -Finland.
Public option is a load of bullshit. steaming bullshit. We all know obama is a communist ( as am i) so why doesnt he go ahead and go straightforward with the long term plan and make full singlepayer.
without public healthcare you cant even call yourself a civillised nation. in your sickening country if someone is bleeding in the streets people wont call them an ambulance because then they have to pay for it if said person has no isurance. this is systemic evil, america loves only greed and contains not one atom of humanity. though any 1 individual may be as kind as any other from a civillised country, the system into which they are born corupts them to the very core
tis unfortunatly true but how would that be different from any other advertising,e.g. fasion/cosmetics your not beautiful enough. advertising is there to tell you your not good enough and you need to by some shit to make yourself good enough, that is also the central tenent of the american society
then why not apply that to everything, let drugs, alcohol and sex be advertised freely and openly? it's just not the case.
i don't see how medication and clothing can be equated. there are no adverse health effects to wearing a brand name t-shirt, unless you count the loss of money to buy food and shelter.
i think it comes down to a lack of trust for the healthcare system and doctors. people should feel comfortable and confident in their doctors enough to trust that they will recommend the...
I don't think the Public Option will ever come about. Too many people of power have spent great deals of money to make sure their bonuses are not touched. In the US, history is "always" written by those who can afford it. What needs to happen for single payer to come alive is for all the doctors (which is an overwhelming number) who want the single payer system to stop practicing medicine tomorrow until it is in place.
Will some form of a public option make it into the bill? Yes. Will it be a robust public option that will actually drive down costs? As much as I want to believe it will, I have a hard time believing it. It seems like the insurance companies always seem to weasel out a deal in their favor. :-(
The real question is, how much more will we pay in taxes for the public option, and then do the math after that. How much more do these countries with government health care pay?
The public option is not the only way to bring down costs. Throwing around statistics is a good way to make a point, but it rarely gives the whole story.
Heres an interesting question: Will the public option cross state lines? Can private insurance do that? How is that competitive?
You sound like a very nice person. Straight arrow. You sound willing and hesitant about new taxes. I admire and respect you, whoever you are, for your naive outlook, your innocent outlook on life. It is a jungle out there. Right now the beasts of the jungle smell blood and they want to devour you. they want to put you in a cage where you can work and earn as long as you give whatever you earn to them. It is called communism..
I am more worried about fascism... the so called communist governments of the past and present aren't truly communist and what we face in America is not either, although it looks a bit like it.
We have had plenty of socialism in our system for a long time... that isn't the worst thing in the world.
Other than the fact that you think I am naive, I think we are on the same page though.
You keep repeating glenn beck talking points and you will only alienate the people you are trying to help.
Don't get me wrong, Beck brings up some good stuff. But he is a polarizer... that doesn't change people's minds. It only strengthens opinions (in my opinion).
As for Cloward-Piven, I also agree, but its started long before Obama... he is just carrying on the program.
The others pay about half what we do for healthcare - so doing the math will show more money in the pockets of Americans if we had a system like the civilized nations of the world.
I don't understand the goal of 'keeping the system we have now' - we pay twice as much for second-class results.
It would sure benefit employers if they didn't have to factor in extravagant profits for insurers as a cost of doing business when the competition doesn't have to.
I'm talking about doing what we can to cut costs while keeping the private insurance industry.
I agree that we shouldn't have to get ins. through out employer... we should be able to get the same breaks as them , one way or another.
Another important angle is just getting health care costs down. One way is capping the inflated lawsuits against doctors.. not what individuals get, but the millions the lawyers get.
I'm sick of hearing that there are no other options.
Fuck you, you fucking fuck. You are the ignorant one. Both my parents were college educated, Dad was an attorney. I myself have far surpassed both of them int terms of education and in terms of experience. I have a 140+ IQ. I have 420 college credits. I have a vast wealth experience in various aspects of life and work and it is YOU , you fucking fuck who is an ignorant stupid stupid asshole.
We keep the for-profit ins. industry because it is a free market economy (even if it is in name only). Do you think the constitution was a good thing? I do...
As for your statistic... it is meaningless because you cannot measure something like that. Doctors do not let people die because they don't have insurance. And regardless, the point you are trying to make is about cost. So lets get the cost down... the public option is not the only answer.
Did you know that the bill will require everyone to have health insurance? That is unconstitutional in my opinion.
And don't you think that is gonna help the evil insurance companies? Everyone has to get into their business now. And the public option won't even be for just anyone, so most of the new policies will be handled by private companies.
Can you supply a link to the study you are talking about?
Yes, I don't like the idea that the way to 'fix' our broken system is to force more people to pay through the nose to the bloated insurance bureaucracy.
But if requiring healthcare insurance is unconstitutional, then so is requiring drivers to carry auto insurance...
The "public option" (or government option) is a means to an end. The end game is single payer. This is not hard to prove just based on statements made by Obama and Barney Frank among others.
Please don't assume that I think single payer is a bad thing necessarily... but it is unconstitutional in my mind and it is being brought in through the back door.
But back to the original point... yes that may cut costs, but is it the only way? No.
If someone in the NRA said they would prefer if people could own nukes. Does that mean the objective of the NRA is to give everyone nukes? of course not.
I dont know what barney frank said, but by himself is of little importance. Obama said if he could start from scratch he would go single payer. Obviously, he cant start from scratch.
Thus he is trying to find a happy medium. If the public option sucks, it will fail... that is the whole point of it being an option.
Frank said that single payer is the goal and the public option is the best road to getting there. It is a stepping stone. And he isn't the only one who feels that way.
Be honest... do you want single payer? And if so, wouldn't you welcome this provision?
Also... I don't remember Obama saying anything about, "if he could start from scratch." He said that the way it is now makes it impossible to bring in single payer... thus the stepping stone approach. A means to an end, if you will.
who cares what frank says? Buying a car is a stepping stone on the way to drunk driving. Allowing guns in national parks is a stepping stone on the way to allowing them in schools. You cant govern a country based on what is a stepping stone to something else.
No i dont want single payer, i want more competition... even if that competition comes from the government.
If someone declares that they want single payer, and then admits that a., b., and c. must happen to get it, and then the start implementing a., b., and c. then they are using the stepping stone method to get single payer.
As for competition... the government vs. private industry is not fare competition. Thats why I don't like that idea.
Wouldn't allowing ins. companies to compete across state lines increase competition? Why not start there?
a good idea doesnt cease to be a good idea because 1 or 2 people says something stupid. Besides single payer will never happen.
The government vs private industry is fair competition. The only thing that might happen is insurance companies might have to fire their lobbyists and stop making campaign contributions to stay competitive, but would that be such a bad thing? Their current technique of bribing government officials isnt fair competition.
The problem is that 1 of those 2 people is the President! Not some nobody on the street...
Government vs private:
Consider a gym. There is a government funded gym and a privately owned gym. Who has lower membership fees?
I'm sure you will say it's a bad analogy, but I urge you to look at why the government one is cheaper... tax payers are handling a portion of the overhead. The same thing will happen will insurance, which means it's really only gonna be cheaper for some in the long run.
also, yea... im all for competition across state lines and tort reform or whatever the republican talking points are. But the reason they remain ideas and not an actual bill is because they will do little to nothing to lower costs. Republicans need to learn to negotiate and try to improve the bill rather than block it.
I agree with tort reform and insurance out of state competition but the by far the biggest obstacle to affordability is that Govt subsidizes the entire industry by over $450 billion dollars a year. That's $450 billion the private sector does not want to pay for health care. If you remove the subsidies, the industry would have no choice but to drop their prices to what individual customers, instead of vote buying Govt, are able or willing to pay.
government already subsidizes healthcare. Why do you think employers offer healthcare? Ill give you a hint... its because of massive tax breaks they get for offering it. Otherwise they would rather offer higher salaries.
Precisely. But also the key for Govt and the healthcare industry is to separate the customer from the producer as much as possible. Individual customers would pay what and when they want out of pocket, meaning lower prices. But companies paying with high capital (i.e. more money than individual consumers) would result in higher prices. Employer healthcare rather than higher salaries ensures potential employee savings are redirected to healthcare instead of other things consumers would pay for.
That's why the healthcare industry lobbies for Govt to provide the tax credits for employer healthcare. It's an indirect subsidy. That doesn't include the $450 billion in direct subsides.
Also the AMA, the FDA and the DoH discredit cheap natural remedies to the benefit of more expensive procedures and drug makers, use copyright laws against cheap generic drug makers, and greatly misinform about cause and effect of illnesses to promote repetitive use of expensive drugs that solve nothing.
yes, and thats why this will never be solved, because the best thing is not in the interest of the medical industrial complex.
This argument over the public option is really a distraction. The root problem is buried under a mound of laws and mandates passed over the last 70 or more years.
You might want to reread the "also, yea..." comment. You agree that the republican ideas are good and then slam them for trying to block other options. Do you not see that the democrats are blocking options that you agree with too?
That is why I am not a republican or democrat... it is a trap. One side leans on the other and nothing gets done constructively except eroding our freedoms.
But in this case the republican ideas make more sense at least. I do agree, they won't fix the prob tho.
Sorry for the confusion. From the "oh yea" comment, tort reform and insurance competition are the only things I agree with.
I'm not Democrat or Republican either. I'm an Austrian Economics advocate and libertarian leaning. Libertarians have been arguing for tort reform and insurance competition for years. But sharp prices increases in general are a result of a Govt/Bank controlled fiat money (i.e. legal counterfeiting) and regulatory privileges, both which appropriate and redistribute wealth.
I definitely agree over-regulation as part of the problem. Govt money printing and subsidies definitely figure in.
Ludwig Von Mises outlined Govt intervention: It causes problems. Trying to fix it with more Govt intervention causes more problems, and eventually a socialist state emerges. Reasons for socialization could be politicians assuring appropriation of wealth for themselves and their friends, or belief in strong Govt and central planning and therefore Govt's massive ignorance of itself.
Since anyone with a brain at all knows that our congress has been bought and paid for by the health insurance cartel and wall street, i'd say the answer to your question is pretty obvious. If the demonrats get it done, it will be so watered down it won't be real reform anyway.
I differ a bit. I agree Congress has been bought. But the health industry has been bought by Govt as well. The industry has what Govt doesn't have: economic power - the ability to produce. And Govt has what the industry doesn't have: political power - the ability to coerce by legislation, taxation, inflation, "legal" confiscation and force by the military and police. They trade with one another. Its a quid pro quo.
I don't think there is a snowball's chance in hell that we're going to get anything that isn't a public option in name only. If the Democrats have no power over their own party even to prevent fellow democrats from filibustering central party issues, why do they even have a party, except maybe to get elected on a progressive agenda that they *never* intend to actually push for.
A public option has to be payed for. With the mandates in the house bill people are forced to buy either private or public option. We already have socialized medicine in medicare/medicaid. It is borke. It waste $1 to every$3 it spends in fraud and abuse. There is no way you can expand that system and pay for it. Either premiums will have to be high or taxes will have to be high. Countries with Government run programs pay much higher taxes not just income but sales, vat etc and slow economies
Rising healthcare costs in the US is indeed a problem that needs to be tackled. However adding a public option does not appear to be the best way to do so. Let's start with competition across state lines. Tort reform is also a good path.
A public option should be the last choice of those 3, but if indeed it's needed after the first 2, we should do it.
"However adding a public option does not appear to be the best way to do so." How so? I've heard that if we'd do it your way in finland, we'd have MANY uninsured and it'd cost WAY more. It's not adding, it's replacing a flawed system.
I don't understand why this is complex for people. Countries with single payer systems pay less. The reasons are simple. The motive is not profit and everyone has to pay. There is no Wal-marts of the world that can say, I'm not going to pay for my worker cause it saves us money. They all have to pay period no ,if ,and or buts about it. We need to stop playing make believe that people are not greedy and will pay out of the kindness of there hearts. That is delusional.
No, corrupt senator Joe Lieberman of Connecticut will see to that. I live in Australia so it doesn't effect me and my taxpayer funded health insurance (I pay tax so why not get some of it back when I need a boil removed for 'free'?).
Imagine you run a restaurant. Now imagine you HAD to serve anyone who walked through the door regardless of whether they have money or not. Your prices are bound to go up for the people who do have the means to pay for their meal. People complain whats going on is socialism but the way I see it we already pay everyone elses bill!
You should include in your metaphor that everyone at that restaurant HAS to be fed, regardless of other customers.
@the video: I don't believe the public option will any longer fix the issue. Republicans successfully destroyed the original idea (fuckers) and all we have now is a pacified version that handles those who fall through the cracks.
Any bill that doesn't at least have some public option is a failure, but it's terrible that we don't even talk about single payer. We can do better.
As much as I'd love to believe that the public option will pass, I'm not so sure yet. It'll definitely take much longer than we all expected when the candidates all reassured us with great promises that they'd kill the monster.
And no, it won't be a stake. If it passes at all... if anything happens... it will be a slow poison, at best, but it'll have to do. Oh, we could learn so much from the rest of the civilized world.
Yes. Well, actually that is only true in the United States, which has the highest per capita health care costs of any nation in the world. Every other industrial nation seems to have solved this problem. But I have faith in the incompetence of the American leadership in their inability to actually accomplish real reform. If we DID succeed in passing a decent program, we'd soon find a way to demolish it again, or corrupt it for the benefit of the wealthy over the needs of the poor.
So who cares if insurance companies go bankrupt(Which they won't). There are some things that the government needs to do to provide general welfare to it's people. While conservatives are crying bloody murder because it will usher in "socialism" , here I am having to pay half a grand for an emergency room visit. I fall into a crack where I am too rich for government assisted health care and too poor to afford the insanely high private sector costs. Republicans need to get in touch with reality.
- Anthony Wiener (awesome dude BTW) has stateed he and 60 progressives will not vote on a bill w/o a public option, so yes it will be in the bill.
- I think the public option will put a stake in rising costs but will not kill them. If the health care industry siezes on loopholes we will push for single payer.
Disgusting tangent Palin et al are bringing up death panels again (Clearance Page article) but good that sane people will write off this scare tactic.
I'm all for cutting health care costs and improving health care quaility but I'm a bit skeptical that the difference caused between better foreign quality HC and the US's lower quality HC is univesal HC. I think that the life style many Americans adopt, namely poor eating habbits and being sedentary, is the cause of lowering life expectancy and infant mortality rates, not necissarily privatized HC.
The only way to drive cost down is a true free market system where consumers control their healthcare dollars and drive prices. The Government sets the price for 1/2 the healthcare sector directly and the other 1/2 indirectly. The control the production and consumtion thru regulations and mandate that benefit the industry at consumers expence. We need to government out of healthcare and let the people drive the prices.
The only reason government got involved in the first place was cause of the failure of the private sector in the insurance industry. Now you are calling for the failed system to have complete control even though when they did it was worse?
Community Reinvestment Act was started in 1977 and was not the problem. The problem was sub prime loans(predatory lending) by the banks and compounded by the removal of GlassSteagall Act. in 1999. It doesn't matter how rich or poor you are if you jack the rates up over the ability of the person to pay they will be forced to default on their home. Do this on top of taking on to much risk, those selling the loans having no risk and you see the problem.
Accellerated under Clinton. Pushed hard by Franks, Durbin, Dodd, all pushing for this, forcing and threatening the lending institutions if they did not. With all the bad paper the ingenuity of gthe bankers, in collusion with the ratings agencies bundled this stuff up and sold it as if it were gold.
Work it backwards dude. If you want to take over the banks run them into bankruptcy first. Just as the government did.
I do the same thing you do thought. I try to shed some light on what is real. But it is impossible. It is the proverb about the elephant in a dark cave.
I am old now and this is my community service. LOL
No actually it was a campaign promise of a far left liberal who liked socialism. They said the same thing then that it would compete with private care to drive cost down. Well it did the exact opposite. The programs cost in 30 years was more then 5 times what they estimated.
In theory this would work, except the leveraging power of massive corporations will almost always crush smaller competitors. Just look at Wal Mart and its impact on small communities.
The only direction the free market system can go in, if there's no Teddy-esque trust busting, is corporatism. And that's not a good thing.
Large corporations always collapse under their own weight and are replaced with new technology and new offerings . I cite IBM, Xerox, Walmart today is being replaced with another more modern corporatation. You have no facts.
People always have to find someone to blame. Granted wal-mart is a huge corporation but they didn't get there without consumers and of coarse local governments taking their money to build in every small town community.
Also Wal-Mart sacrificing health care for the workers to create lower prices doesn't help anyone but the Wal Mart. All it does is shift the burden onto the taxpayer. So the American people are subsidizing Wal-Marts greed. Capitalist can't have it booth ways. If you Don't want government involved then stop forcing taxpayers to subsidizing the irresponsible business that don't want to proved Insurance. Provide health care or get out the way.
this bill is not meant to make the system work for society but to bring us under their control. we are nothing for them but statistics. once our role is over, we are out! watch on youtube: "Soros: China Must Be Part Of The New World Order"
in soros opinion the role of america is over! now the chinese should take over.
1990 pages!!! 1990 of what?! what are they building up there?!! 1990 and still some to go! who can read 1990 pages and be ready for a vote within a few days? i think they want to get the market reduced to a few insurance agencies which will get all of the taxpayers money who will gobble up more and more money each year and raise your taxes constantly. remember: when government gets involved in the free market IT CANT WORK!!! OK?!!! IT CANT WORK!!!!!!!
You are getting there. This is not about health care at all. It is about communism. Remember when Maxkne Waters said "we will socialize, er er er er long pause, nationalize the oil companies? This is about ideology and redistribution of wealth. Although it doesn't work, they are going for it. Imagine this insane idea in full implementation. Where does the property come from? The property the hospitals clinics and dr's offices currently sit on. Where does the government get all the property ~~~
Who pays for the property now? Hospital corporations, doctors, clinic operators. Who pays them so they can afford to pay for the property. Well, we do. The patients pay for he hospitals,t he clinics, the doctors and nurses and technicians. We pay for all that. Well, the government has decided to "nationalize" all this property, and using our money to do it. Kind of like when Costco started up, getting $50 for each member, the money collected for membership paid for the inventory to begin with.
I'm still working on this epiphany so it is not "calibrated" with the right words yet., but hang in.
When the government owns all the property, like they already do the houses that they forced into bankruptcy with their community redevlopment scam, then they also own all the jobs. Where will doctors and nurses and technicians work if not for government? Lower wages of course. Longer hours of course. Inferior quality of service , of course.
upon millions of unemployed health care and insurance providers. We will pay them unemployment insurance to keep the crime rate down. Where does the money come from to pay for unemployment insurance? Well, the government will just print it since there isn't enough collateral to borrow anymore. We will be a communist government within 2-4 years, unless we stop it. One of the things my Chinese friends, living in China, admire about our system of government is our private property ownership laws.
Lol What a stupid way to say that. The govenment wont just "Print" it because then the value of our dollar goes down. Lets just go ahead and make the mistake other countries did in WWII when they overprinted money it became so worthless that it was used as wallpaper. You do not know the first thing about politics or government to be spitting off garbage like this. "Great Satan."
You are learning. Once the government has run out of people who will lend to us, they will just start printing money, They are already doing this by the way. With no taxes to guarantee loans and no property to collateralize our debts, we will be right where the communists want us. We will be communists. CommunistsRUsHow does this advantage the people?It doesn''t. It advantages the ruling class. The dictator and his minions.
I haven't quite bridged the gap in my thinking about why would anyone do this ? Obama and company seem to be very angry that the poor folks, translates to black folks, don't have the moeny, don't have the power. They think the black man was taken advantage of and never paid reparations. So they have devised a way to get reparations. But, it brings everyone down to poverty instead of bring the blacks up to porspertiy.
The poor already have government healthcare through medicaid and they already have rationed care. 50% of Doctors won't take medicaid patients. Hospital reimbursment rates are low and the shortages are made up by adding cost to private insurance. Adding to high cost healthcare. Before medicaid medicare we had charitable hospitals and you payed what you could afford. Cost were kept in check in the private sector by a true free market system not a government/industry lobbyist controled system.
I agree, Medicaid sucks. Thats why it should be Medicare for all. Medicare is a much cheaper system then private insurance and does not have the problems that Medicaid does.
Um alot of medicare reimbursments rates are below cost to hospitals and doctors leaving them to make up the shortages by charging higher prices for private system.. There are lot of other reasone healthcare cost have skyrocketed that is just one. The biggest is most people haven't got a clue how high cost are and don't demand better quality at lower cost because their insurance will pay for it. We all should start asking about cost and negociate prices.
i was genuinly shocked when i found out americans didn't have universal healthcare or an NHS as we have in England, i really didn't believe it for a while.
i could only imagien how terrible it would have been that when my dad went into hospital a couple of years ago we'd have to worry about the costs too.
i feel really sorry for you guys, get one soon, they are great.
Frog869 5 months ago
no it will increase them even more...
an0m0nus 1 year ago
No mamen
KalimanCool 1 year ago
Fascinating. Might want to check out my video addressing the undead and their effect on the healthcare debate: Undead and Uninsured. Click on my name to get to my channel. Keep up the good work!
ZDoggMD 1 year ago
too freakin funny 100000000000000000000000000000000000000 starz!!!!=)=)=)
jackybarapat101 1 year ago
you think a 57% death rate from prostate cancer in england is a sucess. man the US must have it worse it with a 12% chance of dying. hmmm .(England has socialized helath care.
XxslimchickenxX 2 years ago
please share your sources of information
nithelith 1 year ago
Are you serious? The US a 77% higher death rate from gun shot wounds. But that has nothing to do with the healthcare system. To say that more people die from one specific disease somewhere else means that its because of there healthcare system is a really stupid argument. Did you get that from bill oreilly or something?
PyreOfFate 1 year ago
zombie pelosi is actually a reptillian
Frances3654 2 years ago
lol 5/5 for zombies!
murrymurrymurrymurry 2 years ago
5 stars for nanci pelosi
nolanpoepoe 2 years ago
I'm not sure if the US will manage to put up a good healthcare system because it still bears the taint of McCarthyism. Which makes it terrified of any form of 'socialism' even though very few Americans even have a clue what socialism ACTUALLY is.
Once America buries Joseph McCarthy. (And that idiotic rugged macho nonsense whilst it's at it.), it'll do worse then many other countries in this sort of thing. (And other things.)
Shavarnarak 2 years ago
And bury reagan too.
MrTabby5000 2 years ago
Will the public option remain? I hope so. Will it help with rising health costs? That is the bigger question. How do we deal with the fact that US hospitals and patients pay more for drugs and medical equipment than other countries? Maybe, this is a good first step. Campaign finance reform, so these same corporations that over-charge us cannot control our politicians, would be the next step.
tisaroo555 2 years ago
Without a public option there is no reform.
atheistphilosopher 2 years ago
Many things in our lives are 'universal' or 'socially' funded, it's just that people don't think about them. Libraries, Public Schools, Fire and Police stations, not to mention the mailing system and public parks and such. I do not see how one more publicly funded thing would do any harm. If it truly did harm then all our Fire, Police, Parks, Schools, Libraries, Public Transportation ect. in this country would've failed or been turned into some form of Private Funded systems by now.
arashicloud 2 years ago
It seems that people are willing to ignore the evidence of the current system's abject failure and the success of universal healthcare systems in the developed world.
You'd think they'd at least be amenable to the fact that we pay twice as much for our second-rate results as they do under the superior methods.
proudfootz 2 years ago
these "socially funded" things you speak of, are community based only. and your local tax dollars go to these things, to help support the local community. like giving spare change to a bum or giving a few dollars to the "church plate" to help support your church. schools are technically socialism because its on a national level (federal government regulates education) i and others hate it, but its been around for so long, its, forgotten and accepted. point still not made, but ran out of space.
scalp340 2 years ago
healthcare...(yawn) how 'bout fighting muzzie terrorists barack hussein?
melecla 2 years ago
What's stopping you from doing it?
katey1dog 2 years ago
The 1st problem you have is that you already have an immoral system that makes people far too much fucking money for them to let it go so easily. The Repubicans will lie cheat and steal to get what they want and they are lying like hell now. The 2nd problem you have is people who are too willing to listen to blatent liars, Hannity, Beck, Malkin, Bachman... When the BS they serve is listened to so readily, you are already on to a loser. Healthcare should be a basic human right.
brads1974 2 years ago
Given to us by god? If that were the case then we would either A) Never get sick or B) Be borne knowing how to heal yourself of any ailment.
Where did you obtain this right from? How do you obtain it? Freedom is the lack of dependence on someone or government. Depending on the government to provide you health care is in fact a loss of freedom. Let us consumers rise up together and correct any flaws with the health care market. Dont go tell big daddy government to go fix it for us.
raininginhell 2 years ago
Right's never have and never will be given by "god", I'm talking basic human rights.
And I understand the desire to rise up against against the healthcare market. Done fuck all about it so far though, despite spiraling costs and a disgracful service record, why should now be the jolt.
Government providing healthcare effects you in no way if you still choose private insurance, so that effects you how?
brads1974 2 years ago
Now that the house has passed the public option let's hope that the senate can pull their heads out of their asses as well.
The rest of the world has proven the public option. America has just become one of the most conservative countries in the modern world and is filled with people who have only a passing acquaintance with reality.
Viperzka 2 years ago
I think republicans will rally with the big time insurance companies and hold it up in the senate...that's what they do, they convince poor American's to believe that big government health care is bad for America while they have top of the line coverage...wake up people we are 50 years behind.
s0uth3rncomfort 2 years ago
The public option can go to hell and so can health care reform. I don't want a government mandated change to anything that can affect my freedom. There is no argument to this, my freedoms should be protected above all else. Yes even your health care! The only thing the government needs to do is reduce regulation and make itself smaller.
raininginhell 2 years ago
@raininginhell The lack of regulation is what has caused this problem in the first place. If you don't like governments that take care of their people then why don't you move to Somalia. I hear they have almost no government at all.
You can't have freedom if you are dead! Health care reform is trying to keep you alive so that you can be free.
Viperzka 2 years ago
Your argument suggests that the government should control your whole life and decide what education you get and where you will work and what your serial number should be. Gov. mandated health care is OVER the line. I'm sure it's hard for you to see as you enjoy depending on someone else and like free handouts. Healthcare is not a right, it is not in the Constitution and nor should it be. He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.
raininginhell 2 years ago
are you this retarded? your government already do control where you go to school if you go public, you know, district high schools ring a bell? and its not government taking over healthcare you idiot its a public option of health insurance THATS NON PROFIT. meaning its cheaper and more people can afford it, its going to get rid of any of the private companies just give poorer people a viable option. how do you not get this? you have many socialised services why not healthcare?
Menla1 2 years ago
No, are you restarted? Just asking as part of a healthy debate.
raininginhell 2 years ago
no, but that doesnt address the fact that you dont know what this debate is actually about or anything about healthcare/healthcare reform.
and its retarded, silly.
Menla1 2 years ago
Why is it over the line? Yes, there certainly is a line but why do you draw it right before healthcare? Why should we allow public education, food stamps, unemployment insurance, police services, medicare, medicaid, firefighters, FDA, DEA, INS, abortion regulations, public highways, the internet, OSHA, 40 hour work week, military, courts, sanitation regulations, polution regulations, consumer safety laws, etc.
Why all of those and not healthcare? And if not those then move to Somalia.
Viperzka 2 years ago
raininginhell 2 years ago
Were the USA not Cuba or Somalia.... and if your gonna use a comparison why not use industrialized nations like ours ... let's say England , Canada , France, Germany, who all have a Universal system ... look it's ridiculous to think the USA is on a budget to spend 16 trillion over the next 10 years on there military when a small portion of that can assure that all Americans have health care.... think about it... Health reform will be 1 trillion over 10 years and lower the deficit over time.
funkyflights 2 years ago
Um, please don't butt into a conversation you obviously didn't take the time to read.
raininginhell 2 years ago
@funkyflights
Those who are fighting healthcare reform don't care how over-priced the system is or how many it kills.
It only matters that the bosses continue to make obscene profits.
proudfootz 2 years ago
That is far from the reason I rally against health care reform. I do it because freedom is more important to me than having a bigger government make sure I have health insurance. Would it be easier to be lazy and just take the hand out? Sure, but the price of this laziness is less freedom.
raininginhell 2 years ago
Exactly what freedom is being taken away? If you are happy paying what you pay, then carry on, if you would like less money going to the back pockets of billionaires and into your's, take the government option.
An extra, cheaper option is not taking anything away, it is only adding.
Guns and gun rights are the only thing that should be taken away.
brads1974 2 years ago
What you think of as 'lazy' is what just common sense.
America cannot afford to throw away lives by the tens of thousands just to make sure a few billionnaires keep up their profit margins.
proudfootz 2 years ago
Laziness ? so that's why you think 46 Million and rising have no health care ? LAZINESS... lol... dude educate yourself about the greed withing this failed health care system.... IT"S NOT JUST LAZINESS.... it's a corrupt system and eliminates taking care of the sick and overpricing everybody that's healthy.... get real
funkyflights 2 years ago
It is unfair to put the post office on that list. The PO isn't supposed to make money, otherwise it would cost $20 per letter. Also you have bought Fox's BS about the net neutrality bill, the government is actually trying to protect your net freedom by making it illegal for ISP's to garden wall your service. The bill is backed by Republican's in ISP's pockets, like McCain who admits he cannot even turn on a computer. Listen before you gram your pitchfork!
brads1974 2 years ago
I work as a network engineer for an ISP. I know eacactly what the net neutrality bill is and what it will do. Forcing ISP's to operate under those regulations is bad for business and bad for the consumer in the long run. I dont have the space in this box to explain every reason. Please don't spread misinformation about something you dont really understand. Why is everyone here such a communist? BTW the post office is coming in short DUE to gov. regulations.
raininginhell 2 years ago
How do you know I don't understand it?
You know nothing about government run health care, but you choose to comment. You know nothing about the Post Office, but choose to comment...
brads1974 2 years ago
These organizations fail only when greedy corporate owned politicians (primarily conservatives) destroy their funding.
The internet was created by the government, and is currently under the control of the government. The net neutrality legislation is too keep the internet running as it does now rather than let corporations rape it when the current legislation expires.
Viperzka 2 years ago
You are so full of shit you dont even know it. The gov. did not create what you now know as the internet. They do not run the internet, nor have they ever. The internet is owned and operated by many different ISP's who spend their own capital to lay fiber and copper and connect to each other. There is no gov. involved in this free market process.
raininginhell 2 years ago
@raininginhell
You forgot the US military as one of government's failures.
proudfootz 2 years ago
Healthcare for profit is innately immoral. The health insurance industry looks at the amount of money they can squeeze from you, and the amount that they must pay to make you healthy, and decide if you should be allowed to live or die. Conservatives know this, hence why they brought out the argument of "death panels". Death panels are exactly what is happening now and only public, non-profit health insurance can stop these death panels.
Viperzka 2 years ago
Cost is determined by supply and demand. Government thinks they can control costs and quality through stricter regulations, but they have been trying this for the last half-century already.
You have to increase supply and business entry into the healthcare sector if you want to improve quality and lower costs, without a detriment to innovation. But, this would require gov. to loosen their stranglehold on the healthcare industry or break up corporatism not happening any time soon.
TheBasicFreedom 2 years ago
Increasing our supply of Doctors is essential. The problem right now is that our prices are artificially high due to the fact that health insurance is exempt from anti-monopoly laws. Regulation is to stop the price fixing and introduce a balancing factor.
Viperzka 2 years ago
why are us liberals concerned with silly things like FACTS and the TRUTH...why are we so concerned about helping people....we should be like right wingers and just be interested about scaring people....and coming up with scary buzz words and loaded catch phrases like govt.. takeover and socialism...and the dreaded "obamacare"....if we just compared everything to nazis and the holocaust we would get the media's attention
jshooper 2 years ago
Why are people so obsessed with having the gov. run every aspect of their lives? I want independence and freedom not government mandates that intend to "keep me healthy" but in reality limit my freedom. BTW why do liberals always have to bring up nazis and the holocaust in every argument they make?
raininginhell 2 years ago
@raininginhell um...Obama is Hitler ring a bell?
Viperzka 2 years ago
raininginhell...yea it was a bunch of liberals who showed up to washington with a giant sign with a pile of dead holocaust victims at dachua...and compared it to HC reform....and it's liberals like rush limbaugh and glenn beck who call obama the democrats nazis all the time....oops....that's bizarro world
jshooper 2 years ago
you see that germany has also great problems with heath care due to the fact that the goverment goes to a two class system of health care; this is a mass for the social security of citizens of Germany
limonare 2 years ago
Liberal Viewer you rock!!
Smackdown2211 2 years ago 2
If they put forth the public option, they should include a rule that being a republican is a pre-existing condition.
Violent2aShadow 2 years ago 2
There are too many government regulations as it is.
raininginhell 2 years ago
don't forget about the illegal aliens. They support it too.
kleblanc1 2 years ago
No illegal immigrants will be able to buy insurance. Why should they, they get free healthcare at the emergency room. Your racist views makes you not see past the nose on your face. It would be more beneficial to the reform if they were allowed to buy insurance. More money in the pool!
phillipmarch22 2 years ago
Ok, it's silly to think that illegals are going to buy insurance. So are you proposing to refuse care to uninsured illegals at the ER? Personally I think that sounds like a good idea.
raininginhell 2 years ago
@raininginhell Wow, you really are an inhuman monster aren't you. You really advocate letting people die in the streets. You do realize that "illegals" are human beings too, don't you?
Viperzka 2 years ago
I wish he didn't start every vid with 'so..'
eclipticsphere17 2 years ago
LV is from Cali - we're lucky he doesn't say "so, like..." :)
timmmahhhh 2 years ago
HAHAHAHAHAA, soo true
eclipticsphere17 2 years ago
Shameless mixing of metaphors in your title, LV. Ugh!
It seems to me that the "public option" is indeed dead. They aren't talking about making a government-run program available to the general public (such as by expanding Medicare). They are talking about *some* new public health care which is not available to most of us.
Odds are they'll funnel it through the health insurance industry some way, so they can take their cut.
I see no reason for optimism.
Urgelt 2 years ago
Urgelt wrote "They aren't talking about making a government-run program available to the general public (such as by expanding Medicare). They are talking about *some* new public health care which is not available to most of us"
Even Social Security was a more limited program originally and many on the left thought the compromises necessary to pass it made it similarly impotent but change sometimes comes incrementally. Some progress is better than no progress
Thanks for still watching :-)
LiberalViewer 2 years ago
Cmon America, It's about time you joined the rest of the civilized world in the 21st century.
MarcusCardiff 2 years ago 2
Our health care system is basically free. BUT there are long waiting times, months, even longer, for larger operations such as surgery. Then there is the option of private clinics that cost a lot if one is in a hurry and has the money. AFAIK in a case of emergency it is possible to get a surgery from a private sector too, that the goverment then pays to some extent. Atleast I don't see people dying on the streets. Education is free too. Money comes from taxes. We got plenty of those. -Finland.
prowokator 2 years ago 2
The only people you see dying in the streets in America are those who have been shot. Or those involved in a traffic accident.
HeisenbergSleptHere 2 years ago
Wow, I didn't know the US payed the most for Health. And their service is worse, too!
Ravrahn 2 years ago
Public option is a load of bullshit. steaming bullshit. We all know obama is a communist ( as am i) so why doesnt he go ahead and go straightforward with the long term plan and make full singlepayer.
Notahappyperson 2 years ago
without public healthcare you cant even call yourself a civillised nation. in your sickening country if someone is bleeding in the streets people wont call them an ambulance because then they have to pay for it if said person has no isurance. this is systemic evil, america loves only greed and contains not one atom of humanity. though any 1 individual may be as kind as any other from a civillised country, the system into which they are born corupts them to the very core
1qaz6yhn5tgb 2 years ago
Do you think that the increase in costs and little health improvements has anything to do with the continual advertisement of medication?
I think it's wrong for drug companies to be advertising. It seems like they're using peoples' insecurities to make money...
bunnybritttheshit 2 years ago
tis unfortunatly true but how would that be different from any other advertising,e.g. fasion/cosmetics your not beautiful enough. advertising is there to tell you your not good enough and you need to by some shit to make yourself good enough, that is also the central tenent of the american society
1qaz6yhn5tgb 2 years ago
then why not apply that to everything, let drugs, alcohol and sex be advertised freely and openly? it's just not the case.
i don't see how medication and clothing can be equated. there are no adverse health effects to wearing a brand name t-shirt, unless you count the loss of money to buy food and shelter.
i think it comes down to a lack of trust for the healthcare system and doctors. people should feel comfortable and confident in their doctors enough to trust that they will recommend the...
bunnybritttheshit 2 years ago
... right thing.
The healthcare system shouldn't be viewed as a money making business...
bunnybritttheshit 2 years ago
I don't think the Public Option will ever come about. Too many people of power have spent great deals of money to make sure their bonuses are not touched. In the US, history is "always" written by those who can afford it. What needs to happen for single payer to come alive is for all the doctors (which is an overwhelming number) who want the single payer system to stop practicing medicine tomorrow until it is in place.
TheThief672 2 years ago
Very few people in America believe what you say here. You don't believe it do you?
GreatSatan1 2 years ago
It's Murphy's law on the public option. I do hope we just go full single payer with HR676 though.
CommonSensation 2 years ago
Yes, but right now it's looking like a trigger.
Depressingly, it's looking less and less likely.
Gamdursol 2 years ago
Welcome to civilisation USA, its about time the goverment of USA does soething good for you
ragatso666 2 years ago
Will some form of a public option make it into the bill? Yes. Will it be a robust public option that will actually drive down costs? As much as I want to believe it will, I have a hard time believing it. It seems like the insurance companies always seem to weasel out a deal in their favor. :-(
hypnometal 2 years ago
The real question is, how much more will we pay in taxes for the public option, and then do the math after that. How much more do these countries with government health care pay?
The public option is not the only way to bring down costs. Throwing around statistics is a good way to make a point, but it rarely gives the whole story.
Heres an interesting question: Will the public option cross state lines? Can private insurance do that? How is that competitive?
skivosa 2 years ago
You sound like a very nice person. Straight arrow. You sound willing and hesitant about new taxes. I admire and respect you, whoever you are, for your naive outlook, your innocent outlook on life. It is a jungle out there. Right now the beasts of the jungle smell blood and they want to devour you. they want to put you in a cage where you can work and earn as long as you give whatever you earn to them. It is called communism..
GreatSatan1 2 years ago
I am more worried about fascism... the so called communist governments of the past and present aren't truly communist and what we face in America is not either, although it looks a bit like it.
We have had plenty of socialism in our system for a long time... that isn't the worst thing in the world.
Other than the fact that you think I am naive, I think we are on the same page though.
You keep repeating glenn beck talking points and you will only alienate the people you are trying to help.
skivosa 2 years ago
I guess Glen Beck and I are on the same page. I didn't know about his talking points.
I just read about Cloward Piven tactics and think this is a good description of the forces at work
NotEasilyRegimented 2 years ago
Don't get me wrong, Beck brings up some good stuff. But he is a polarizer... that doesn't change people's minds. It only strengthens opinions (in my opinion).
As for Cloward-Piven, I also agree, but its started long before Obama... he is just carrying on the program.
skivosa 2 years ago
The others pay about half what we do for healthcare - so doing the math will show more money in the pockets of Americans if we had a system like the civilized nations of the world.
proudfootz 2 years ago
The math I was speaking of was in regards to tax hikes and trickle down taxes (like when you raise the taxes on the rich, they just raise prices).
But an equally important point I was getting at was that there seem to be many ways to bring down cost and still have the same system we have now.
The important thing is getting cost down.
There is a difference between reform and overhaul, and we should start with reform in my opinion. If that doesn't work, I am in favor of overhaul.
skivosa 2 years ago
skiv -
I don't understand the goal of 'keeping the system we have now' - we pay twice as much for second-class results.
It would sure benefit employers if they didn't have to factor in extravagant profits for insurers as a cost of doing business when the competition doesn't have to.
proudfootz 2 years ago
Your missing my point...
I'm talking about doing what we can to cut costs while keeping the private insurance industry.
I agree that we shouldn't have to get ins. through out employer... we should be able to get the same breaks as them , one way or another.
Another important angle is just getting health care costs down. One way is capping the inflated lawsuits against doctors.. not what individuals get, but the millions the lawyers get.
I'm sick of hearing that there are no other options.
skivosa 2 years ago
skiv -
What is the advantage of keeping the for-profit insurance industry when other nations get better results without it and only pay half as much?
45,000 Americans a year die because of our current system - we can't afford to throw people away like that.
proudfootz 2 years ago
What a liar you are. Are your parents proud of you. Or are they liars too?
HeisenbergSleptHere 2 years ago
You are so ignorant, Are your parents proud of you or were they uneducated too?
MarcusCardiff 2 years ago 2
Fuck you, you fucking fuck. You are the ignorant one. Both my parents were college educated, Dad was an attorney. I myself have far surpassed both of them int terms of education and in terms of experience. I have a 140+ IQ. I have 420 college credits. I have a vast wealth experience in various aspects of life and work and it is YOU , you fucking fuck who is an ignorant stupid stupid asshole.
TAMARLANE 2 years ago
TAMARLANE,
I wasn't replying to you, my comment was to HeisenbergSleptHere
MarcusCardiff 2 years ago
We keep the for-profit ins. industry because it is a free market economy (even if it is in name only). Do you think the constitution was a good thing? I do...
As for your statistic... it is meaningless because you cannot measure something like that. Doctors do not let people die because they don't have insurance. And regardless, the point you are trying to make is about cost. So lets get the cost down... the public option is not the only answer.
skivosa 2 years ago
skiv -
What has the constitution have to do with protecting obscene profits for insurance companies while Americans drop dead by the tens of thousands?
Sorry, but it is a well-supported scientific study that shows Americans are dying because of the current system. But science is meaningless to some...
proudfootz 2 years ago
Did you know that the bill will require everyone to have health insurance? That is unconstitutional in my opinion.
And don't you think that is gonna help the evil insurance companies? Everyone has to get into their business now. And the public option won't even be for just anyone, so most of the new policies will be handled by private companies.
Can you supply a link to the study you are talking about?
skivosa 2 years ago
skiv -
Yes, I don't like the idea that the way to 'fix' our broken system is to force more people to pay through the nose to the bloated insurance bureaucracy.
But if requiring healthcare insurance is unconstitutional, then so is requiring drivers to carry auto insurance...
proudfootz 2 years ago
You don't have to drive...
skivosa 2 years ago
we can cut costs while keeping the private insurance industry... by offering a public option.
mark1m 2 years ago
Bullshit
HeisenbergSleptHere 2 years ago
The "public option" (or government option) is a means to an end. The end game is single payer. This is not hard to prove just based on statements made by Obama and Barney Frank among others.
Please don't assume that I think single payer is a bad thing necessarily... but it is unconstitutional in my mind and it is being brought in through the back door.
But back to the original point... yes that may cut costs, but is it the only way? No.
So why not try reform before overhaul?
skivosa 2 years ago
If someone in the NRA said they would prefer if people could own nukes. Does that mean the objective of the NRA is to give everyone nukes? of course not.
I dont know what barney frank said, but by himself is of little importance. Obama said if he could start from scratch he would go single payer. Obviously, he cant start from scratch.
Thus he is trying to find a happy medium. If the public option sucks, it will fail... that is the whole point of it being an option.
mark1m 2 years ago
Frank said that single payer is the goal and the public option is the best road to getting there. It is a stepping stone. And he isn't the only one who feels that way.
Be honest... do you want single payer? And if so, wouldn't you welcome this provision?
Also... I don't remember Obama saying anything about, "if he could start from scratch." He said that the way it is now makes it impossible to bring in single payer... thus the stepping stone approach. A means to an end, if you will.
skivosa 2 years ago
who cares what frank says? Buying a car is a stepping stone on the way to drunk driving. Allowing guns in national parks is a stepping stone on the way to allowing them in schools. You cant govern a country based on what is a stepping stone to something else.
No i dont want single payer, i want more competition... even if that competition comes from the government.
mark1m 2 years ago
You seem to miss the point...
If someone declares that they want single payer, and then admits that a., b., and c. must happen to get it, and then the start implementing a., b., and c. then they are using the stepping stone method to get single payer.
As for competition... the government vs. private industry is not fare competition. Thats why I don't like that idea.
Wouldn't allowing ins. companies to compete across state lines increase competition? Why not start there?
skivosa 2 years ago
you seem to miss the point.
a good idea doesnt cease to be a good idea because 1 or 2 people says something stupid. Besides single payer will never happen.
The government vs private industry is fair competition. The only thing that might happen is insurance companies might have to fire their lobbyists and stop making campaign contributions to stay competitive, but would that be such a bad thing? Their current technique of bribing government officials isnt fair competition.
mark1m 2 years ago
The problem is that 1 of those 2 people is the President! Not some nobody on the street...
Government vs private:
Consider a gym. There is a government funded gym and a privately owned gym. Who has lower membership fees?
I'm sure you will say it's a bad analogy, but I urge you to look at why the government one is cheaper... tax payers are handling a portion of the overhead. The same thing will happen will insurance, which means it's really only gonna be cheaper for some in the long run.
skivosa 2 years ago
also, yea... im all for competition across state lines and tort reform or whatever the republican talking points are. But the reason they remain ideas and not an actual bill is because they will do little to nothing to lower costs. Republicans need to learn to negotiate and try to improve the bill rather than block it.
mark1m 2 years ago
I agree with tort reform and insurance out of state competition but the by far the biggest obstacle to affordability is that Govt subsidizes the entire industry by over $450 billion dollars a year. That's $450 billion the private sector does not want to pay for health care. If you remove the subsidies, the industry would have no choice but to drop their prices to what individual customers, instead of vote buying Govt, are able or willing to pay.
thomasst2 2 years ago
government already subsidizes healthcare. Why do you think employers offer healthcare? Ill give you a hint... its because of massive tax breaks they get for offering it. Otherwise they would rather offer higher salaries.
mark1m 2 years ago
Precisely. But also the key for Govt and the healthcare industry is to separate the customer from the producer as much as possible. Individual customers would pay what and when they want out of pocket, meaning lower prices. But companies paying with high capital (i.e. more money than individual consumers) would result in higher prices. Employer healthcare rather than higher salaries ensures potential employee savings are redirected to healthcare instead of other things consumers would pay for.
thomasst2 2 years ago
That's why the healthcare industry lobbies for Govt to provide the tax credits for employer healthcare. It's an indirect subsidy. That doesn't include the $450 billion in direct subsides.
Also the AMA, the FDA and the DoH discredit cheap natural remedies to the benefit of more expensive procedures and drug makers, use copyright laws against cheap generic drug makers, and greatly misinform about cause and effect of illnesses to promote repetitive use of expensive drugs that solve nothing.
thomasst2 2 years ago
thomasst2...
yes, and thats why this will never be solved, because the best thing is not in the interest of the medical industrial complex.
This argument over the public option is really a distraction. The root problem is buried under a mound of laws and mandates passed over the last 70 or more years.
skivosa 2 years ago
You might want to reread the "also, yea..." comment. You agree that the republican ideas are good and then slam them for trying to block other options. Do you not see that the democrats are blocking options that you agree with too?
That is why I am not a republican or democrat... it is a trap. One side leans on the other and nothing gets done constructively except eroding our freedoms.
But in this case the republican ideas make more sense at least. I do agree, they won't fix the prob tho.
skivosa 2 years ago
Sorry for the confusion. From the "oh yea" comment, tort reform and insurance competition are the only things I agree with.
I'm not Democrat or Republican either. I'm an Austrian Economics advocate and libertarian leaning. Libertarians have been arguing for tort reform and insurance competition for years. But sharp prices increases in general are a result of a Govt/Bank controlled fiat money (i.e. legal counterfeiting) and regulatory privileges, both which appropriate and redistribute wealth.
thomasst2 2 years ago
I definitely agree over-regulation as part of the problem. Govt money printing and subsidies definitely figure in.
Ludwig Von Mises outlined Govt intervention: It causes problems. Trying to fix it with more Govt intervention causes more problems, and eventually a socialist state emerges. Reasons for socialization could be politicians assuring appropriation of wealth for themselves and their friends, or belief in strong Govt and central planning and therefore Govt's massive ignorance of itself.
thomasst2 2 years ago
Since anyone with a brain at all knows that our congress has been bought and paid for by the health insurance cartel and wall street, i'd say the answer to your question is pretty obvious. If the demonrats get it done, it will be so watered down it won't be real reform anyway.
bigge525 2 years ago
I differ a bit. I agree Congress has been bought. But the health industry has been bought by Govt as well. The industry has what Govt doesn't have: economic power - the ability to produce. And Govt has what the industry doesn't have: political power - the ability to coerce by legislation, taxation, inflation, "legal" confiscation and force by the military and police. They trade with one another. Its a quid pro quo.
thomasst2 2 years ago
"That humorous montage"
God you are such a lifeless, calculative robot fag.
sedlingati 2 years ago
You didn't find it a humourous montage?
fishhead06 2 years ago
I don't think there is a snowball's chance in hell that we're going to get anything that isn't a public option in name only. If the Democrats have no power over their own party even to prevent fellow democrats from filibustering central party issues, why do they even have a party, except maybe to get elected on a progressive agenda that they *never* intend to actually push for.
olafsirpab 2 years ago
A public option has to be payed for. With the mandates in the house bill people are forced to buy either private or public option. We already have socialized medicine in medicare/medicaid. It is borke. It waste $1 to every$3 it spends in fraud and abuse. There is no way you can expand that system and pay for it. Either premiums will have to be high or taxes will have to be high. Countries with Government run programs pay much higher taxes not just income but sales, vat etc and slow economies
quizerry 2 years ago
Q1: No.
Q2: No.
Rising healthcare costs in the US is indeed a problem that needs to be tackled. However adding a public option does not appear to be the best way to do so. Let's start with competition across state lines. Tort reform is also a good path.
A public option should be the last choice of those 3, but if indeed it's needed after the first 2, we should do it.
robman419 2 years ago
"However adding a public option does not appear to be the best way to do so." How so? I've heard that if we'd do it your way in finland, we'd have MANY uninsured and it'd cost WAY more. It's not adding, it's replacing a flawed system.
Cr0uch1ng71g3r 2 years ago
I don't understand why this is complex for people. Countries with single payer systems pay less. The reasons are simple. The motive is not profit and everyone has to pay. There is no Wal-marts of the world that can say, I'm not going to pay for my worker cause it saves us money. They all have to pay period no ,if ,and or buts about it. We need to stop playing make believe that people are not greedy and will pay out of the kindness of there hearts. That is delusional.
RealLifeProduct 2 years ago
No, corrupt senator Joe Lieberman of Connecticut will see to that. I live in Australia so it doesn't effect me and my taxpayer funded health insurance (I pay tax so why not get some of it back when I need a boil removed for 'free'?).
Spentastic 2 years ago
Imagine you run a restaurant. Now imagine you HAD to serve anyone who walked through the door regardless of whether they have money or not. Your prices are bound to go up for the people who do have the means to pay for their meal. People complain whats going on is socialism but the way I see it we already pay everyone elses bill!
moses1424 2 years ago
You should include in your metaphor that everyone at that restaurant HAS to be fed, regardless of other customers.
@the video: I don't believe the public option will any longer fix the issue. Republicans successfully destroyed the original idea (fuckers) and all we have now is a pacified version that handles those who fall through the cracks.
Any bill that doesn't at least have some public option is a failure, but it's terrible that we don't even talk about single payer. We can do better.
snoman99991 2 years ago
As much as I'd love to believe that the public option will pass, I'm not so sure yet. It'll definitely take much longer than we all expected when the candidates all reassured us with great promises that they'd kill the monster.
And no, it won't be a stake. If it passes at all... if anything happens... it will be a slow poison, at best, but it'll have to do. Oh, we could learn so much from the rest of the civilized world.
N7a7v7i 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
The astronomical rise in health-care costs are due to government intervention. How is more government intervention going to solve the problem?
sapofgold 2 years ago
So untrue read my other comments.
RealLifeProduct 2 years ago
Yes. Well, actually that is only true in the United States, which has the highest per capita health care costs of any nation in the world. Every other industrial nation seems to have solved this problem. But I have faith in the incompetence of the American leadership in their inability to actually accomplish real reform. If we DID succeed in passing a decent program, we'd soon find a way to demolish it again, or corrupt it for the benefit of the wealthy over the needs of the poor.
pasha582 2 years ago 4
So who cares if insurance companies go bankrupt(Which they won't). There are some things that the government needs to do to provide general welfare to it's people. While conservatives are crying bloody murder because it will usher in "socialism" , here I am having to pay half a grand for an emergency room visit. I fall into a crack where I am too rich for government assisted health care and too poor to afford the insanely high private sector costs. Republicans need to get in touch with reality.
KDALove 2 years ago
The thing is though, there's already quite a bit of 'socialism' in the US.
watch?v=_RwPpbX6GO8
harlexWTF 2 years ago
it's alive it's alive!
robertrulebirtannia 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
more freedom not more socialism
remove the government interventions which have caused the increase in various health care prices
libertyplayground 2 years ago
I am the immaculate conception
WKaliberr 2 years ago 2
Like
Zwalter0 2 years ago
In response to your questions:
- Anthony Wiener (awesome dude BTW) has stateed he and 60 progressives will not vote on a bill w/o a public option, so yes it will be in the bill.
- I think the public option will put a stake in rising costs but will not kill them. If the health care industry siezes on loopholes we will push for single payer.
Disgusting tangent Palin et al are bringing up death panels again (Clearance Page article) but good that sane people will write off this scare tactic.
timmmahhhh 2 years ago
1:32
I'm all for cutting health care costs and improving health care quaility but I'm a bit skeptical that the difference caused between better foreign quality HC and the US's lower quality HC is univesal HC. I think that the life style many Americans adopt, namely poor eating habbits and being sedentary, is the cause of lowering life expectancy and infant mortality rates, not necissarily privatized HC.
atheistvstheist 2 years ago
The only way to drive cost down is a true free market system where consumers control their healthcare dollars and drive prices. The Government sets the price for 1/2 the healthcare sector directly and the other 1/2 indirectly. The control the production and consumtion thru regulations and mandate that benefit the industry at consumers expence. We need to government out of healthcare and let the people drive the prices.
quizerry 2 years ago
The only reason government got involved in the first place was cause of the failure of the private sector in the insurance industry. Now you are calling for the failed system to have complete control even though when they did it was worse?
RealLifeProduct 2 years ago 2
The government deliberately caused the collapse of the banking system with the community redevelopment act.. Now the government owns the banks.
Private sector can be, and should be overhauled.
government can only destroy the existing infrastructure.
GreatSatan1 2 years ago
Community Reinvestment Act was started in 1977 and was not the problem. The problem was sub prime loans(predatory lending) by the banks and compounded by the removal of GlassSteagall Act. in 1999. It doesn't matter how rich or poor you are if you jack the rates up over the ability of the person to pay they will be forced to default on their home. Do this on top of taking on to much risk, those selling the loans having no risk and you see the problem.
RealLifeProduct 2 years ago
Accellerated under Clinton. Pushed hard by Franks, Durbin, Dodd, all pushing for this, forcing and threatening the lending institutions if they did not. With all the bad paper the ingenuity of gthe bankers, in collusion with the ratings agencies bundled this stuff up and sold it as if it were gold.
Work it backwards dude. If you want to take over the banks run them into bankruptcy first. Just as the government did.
GreatSatan1 2 years ago
You are old enough to know better at 34.
Are you a communist
GreatSatan1 2 years ago
Realist.
RealLifeProduct 2 years ago
And do it because politicians say go ahead we got your back!
quizerry 2 years ago
I do the same thing you do thought. I try to shed some light on what is real. But it is impossible. It is the proverb about the elephant in a dark cave.
I am old now and this is my community service. LOL
GreatSatan1 2 years ago
No actually it was a campaign promise of a far left liberal who liked socialism. They said the same thing then that it would compete with private care to drive cost down. Well it did the exact opposite. The programs cost in 30 years was more then 5 times what they estimated.
quizerry 2 years ago
@quizerry
In theory this would work, except the leveraging power of massive corporations will almost always crush smaller competitors. Just look at Wal Mart and its impact on small communities.
The only direction the free market system can go in, if there's no Teddy-esque trust busting, is corporatism. And that's not a good thing.
Hybrid5784 2 years ago
Large corporations always collapse under their own weight and are replaced with new technology and new offerings . I cite IBM, Xerox, Walmart today is being replaced with another more modern corporatation. You have no facts.
GreatSatan1 2 years ago
People always have to find someone to blame. Granted wal-mart is a huge corporation but they didn't get there without consumers and of coarse local governments taking their money to build in every small town community.
quizerry 2 years ago
Also Wal-Mart sacrificing health care for the workers to create lower prices doesn't help anyone but the Wal Mart. All it does is shift the burden onto the taxpayer. So the American people are subsidizing Wal-Marts greed. Capitalist can't have it booth ways. If you Don't want government involved then stop forcing taxpayers to subsidizing the irresponsible business that don't want to proved Insurance. Provide health care or get out the way.
RealLifeProduct 2 years ago 2
this bill is not meant to make the system work for society but to bring us under their control. we are nothing for them but statistics. once our role is over, we are out! watch on youtube: "Soros: China Must Be Part Of The New World Order"
in soros opinion the role of america is over! now the chinese should take over.
this interview will freak you out!!!
wdcsucks1 2 years ago
lol, hilarious
thorkyll 2 years ago
1990 pages!!! 1990 of what?! what are they building up there?!! 1990 and still some to go! who can read 1990 pages and be ready for a vote within a few days? i think they want to get the market reduced to a few insurance agencies which will get all of the taxpayers money who will gobble up more and more money each year and raise your taxes constantly. remember: when government gets involved in the free market IT CANT WORK!!! OK?!!! IT CANT WORK!!!!!!!
wdcsucks1 2 years ago
You are getting there. This is not about health care at all. It is about communism. Remember when Maxkne Waters said "we will socialize, er er er er long pause, nationalize the oil companies? This is about ideology and redistribution of wealth. Although it doesn't work, they are going for it. Imagine this insane idea in full implementation. Where does the property come from? The property the hospitals clinics and dr's offices currently sit on. Where does the government get all the property ~~~
GreatSatan1 2 years ago
Who pays for the property now? Hospital corporations, doctors, clinic operators. Who pays them so they can afford to pay for the property. Well, we do. The patients pay for he hospitals,t he clinics, the doctors and nurses and technicians. We pay for all that. Well, the government has decided to "nationalize" all this property, and using our money to do it. Kind of like when Costco started up, getting $50 for each member, the money collected for membership paid for the inventory to begin with.
GreatSatan1 2 years ago
I'm still working on this epiphany so it is not "calibrated" with the right words yet., but hang in.
When the government owns all the property, like they already do the houses that they forced into bankruptcy with their community redevlopment scam, then they also own all the jobs. Where will doctors and nurses and technicians work if not for government? Lower wages of course. Longer hours of course. Inferior quality of service , of course.
During the change over, we will have millions ~~~
GreatSatan1 2 years ago
upon millions of unemployed health care and insurance providers. We will pay them unemployment insurance to keep the crime rate down. Where does the money come from to pay for unemployment insurance? Well, the government will just print it since there isn't enough collateral to borrow anymore. We will be a communist government within 2-4 years, unless we stop it. One of the things my Chinese friends, living in China, admire about our system of government is our private property ownership laws.
GreatSatan1 2 years ago
Lol What a stupid way to say that. The govenment wont just "Print" it because then the value of our dollar goes down. Lets just go ahead and make the mistake other countries did in WWII when they overprinted money it became so worthless that it was used as wallpaper. You do not know the first thing about politics or government to be spitting off garbage like this. "Great Satan."
You make me smile :3
SirRavin 2 years ago
You are learning. Once the government has run out of people who will lend to us, they will just start printing money, They are already doing this by the way. With no taxes to guarantee loans and no property to collateralize our debts, we will be right where the communists want us. We will be communists. CommunistsRUsHow does this advantage the people?It doesn''t. It advantages the ruling class. The dictator and his minions.
GreatSatan1 2 years ago
I haven't quite bridged the gap in my thinking about why would anyone do this ? Obama and company seem to be very angry that the poor folks, translates to black folks, don't have the moeny, don't have the power. They think the black man was taken advantage of and never paid reparations. So they have devised a way to get reparations. But, it brings everyone down to poverty instead of bring the blacks up to porspertiy.
GreatSatan1 2 years ago
so your saying keep the blacks poor so the whites can be rich, wow your really selfish
telanm01 2 years ago
The poor already have government healthcare through medicaid and they already have rationed care. 50% of Doctors won't take medicaid patients. Hospital reimbursment rates are low and the shortages are made up by adding cost to private insurance. Adding to high cost healthcare. Before medicaid medicare we had charitable hospitals and you payed what you could afford. Cost were kept in check in the private sector by a true free market system not a government/industry lobbyist controled system.
quizerry 2 years ago
I agree, Medicaid sucks. Thats why it should be Medicare for all. Medicare is a much cheaper system then private insurance and does not have the problems that Medicaid does.
RealLifeProduct 2 years ago
Um alot of medicare reimbursments rates are below cost to hospitals and doctors leaving them to make up the shortages by charging higher prices for private system.. There are lot of other reasone healthcare cost have skyrocketed that is just one. The biggest is most people haven't got a clue how high cost are and don't demand better quality at lower cost because their insurance will pay for it. We all should start asking about cost and negociate prices.
quizerry 2 years ago