I have several petitions where you can demand single payer health care from COMPANIES that give money to conservatives in both parties. Sign them and get as many people as you can to sign them. Go to the following web site which I have encoded backwards take each letter from right to left and then create the address.
It is kind of amazing some "people" think health costs are like buying a car or any other commercial proposition (eg: all the insurance co-sponsored posts on Youtube by varying "people"). You can plan to buy a car or a house: it's your own responsibility and your money allocation--but you can't plan a medical affliction. Not the same. I simply note one anti-health plan person on Ytube had her two fave videos as a) a revolver shooting into a tank, and b) a clip of Milton F'man on "Greed". True!!
Obama wants to create a "death panel" that would deny care to the neediest Americans. You will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. The Democratic health care bills would encourage euthanasia. The reform plans will lead to rationing, or the government determining which medical procedures a patient can have.
rocc:"Don't address more comments to me. I will delete and ignore w/o reading them."
Good...take your ball and go home like a child. Exactly what I expected. You can dish it out, but you certainly can not take it, or hold your own in a debate.
When you are ready to have a civil discussion and present facts, you know where to find me. Unlike you, I am not going to back away friom anything I have said.
weed: "Go to college, get an education. Study Micro and macro economics, Government, History, and accounting like I did, and try your best to get perfect grades like I did. Then come back and talk to us about what you know."
I already studied those subjects when I earned my BA in math from UCLA. I also have a JD from UCLA's Law School.
I specialize in stock index and financial derivatives.
weed: "Insurance paying for services is NOT free market. "
If you believe that, you don't know what you're talking about.
How free is your "free mkt"? You want to repeal child labor laws, min. wage, HIPPA, workplace health&safety regs., OSSHA, EPA regs and corp. income taxes? Should we allow Malaysian style sweatshops?"
rocc:"Your argument that it wouldn't work in the US because we are the US is not
persuasive"
Just because you are too ignorant to be persuaded does not mean they are not good arguments. It just means you refuse to see the truth. That is not a failure on my part.
weed: "Why do you claim I am misguided? Because I do not agree with you, I am somehow misguided?"
Because you insist UHC won't work in the US despite that fact that it works elsewhere, and you tow the party line of the pvt. ins. companies.
Don't take it personally.
weed: "Maybe I know more about it than YOU do. Maybe I understand the history of the Government, the VA, Walter Reed, their failures, and why socialism has never worked. "
rocc:"Because you insist UHC won't work in the US despite that fact that it works elsewhere, and you tow the party line of the pvt. ins. companies"
I am not towing any party line and the USA is NOT elsewhere. I am not affiliated with any "Party".
How can I not take personal attacks and deceptive attempts at association with persons or groups that I have no affiliation any other way than personally?
rocc:"Your arguments and positions are not new to me"
Even though they are not new to you, you still do not know how to answer them. It seems that I understand the failures of the Federal Government and you don't.
weed: "Everyone needs food...why aren't you asking the Government to provide that? Everyone needs clothing, why shouldn't they provide that? Everyone needs water, why not demand Fed Water?"
Not every taxpayer has school age children, yet he still pays for public schools.
Not every taxpayer wants wars, yet he still pays taxes that make the wars possible.
Water is free at public fountains.
The fed. govt. already funds food stamp pgms, public housing, health clinics, drug rehab, etc.
weed: "Everyone needs food...why aren't you asking the Government to provide that? Everyone needs clothing, why shouldn't they provide that? Everyone needs water, why not demand Fed Water?"
That's not the point.
You said UHC is bad because it's *socialism*. I countered by pointing out (via a long list of public services, most fully or partly federally funded) that we've already had socialism for decades.
That IS the point, you just do not want it to be the point. The socialism we have had has not worked. All it has done is kept poor people poor and dependent on Government.
@wcbrocc: I hope you've changed your position over the last few months & now help with keeping America free. While it's true we've had many socialist programs, we certainly don't need any more. The country is bankrupt. So it's not working out so well for the communist plan, is it? Even without starting anew health system & destroying one of the last industries we have. What has the fed gov done that gives you so much confidence in their ability to provide quality health care for all? ???
weed: "... not everyone NEEDS healthcare. Many people live their whole life never or rarely seeing a Doctor."
Everyone needs at least an annual preventative checkup. As people age, they tend to have more health problems. Anyone, no matter how healthy, can have a serious accident require expensive medical treatment.
Those who are more healthy would cost less to care for that those who are less healthy.
weed: "[Operations] would be less expensive [if not covered by insurance]. That is proven by the competition Lasik... "
No. LASIK is an example of an (uncovered) simple common elective surgery. Many covered surgeries have comparable is cost.
The med. ins. companies do what you think the consumer should do: negotiate the prices with providers. The actual cost of many covered surgeries is comparable to LASIK. It's the hospital stay that is expensive.
Example: My mother had a femur replacement that required a 9 day hospital stay. The in-hosptal surgery, which is fairly common, cost about $3600 total, but the hospital stay was about $100,000 before the insurance company cut it down to $75,000.
There are two kinds of people in this world. The first kind are the ones who can study the concept of a fire, understand the fire, and use the fire to their advantage, not to be harmed by the destructive properties of that fire. The second kind are the ones who have to experience getting severely burned several times before they can relate to the destructive power of the fire.
Let's study the fire of Government before we get burned beyond recognition.
Politicians lie. We all know that. Yet people are willing to trust their very lives to people they already know they can not trust to tell them the truth.
We all saw how the Government works in New Orleans. We all know we did not want to be in those peoples shoes. Yet some people are so willign to turn responsibility for their health over to the same exact Government who failed the people of New Orleans.
(cont) But it is a whole new administration...right? But aren't most of the same people working for the agencies? Aren't most of the same politicians still running things? Did so much REALLY change when we got a new President...or is most of the Federal Government the exact same as when Katrina flooded New Orleans and the response was a whole lot less than desirable? Aren't most of the Senators and Congressmen the same as when Bush 1 was in office?
Insurance paying for services is NOT free market. AGAIN, you just do not know what you are talking about.
Go to college, get an education. Study Micro and macro economics, Government, History, and accounting like I did, and try your best to get perfect grades like I did. Then come back and talk to us about what you know.
Right now, you are talking from a position of ignorance and arrogance, and you are just so wrong.
weed: "What part of "illegal" do you not understand?"
Such a narrow view.
My point was that the "illegals" you say are a burden to the taxpayers are themselves taxpayers ! They're also source of cheap labor that benefits the economy. They wouldn't come here seeking work if there was no demand for their services.
rocc:"My point was that the "illegals" you say are a burden to the taxpayers are themselves taxpayers"
No..they are "PARTIAL" tax payers. They can not pay income tax without a "Tax ID" and a legal status. They can only pay sales taxes on local purchases which are mostly LOCAL taxes. The Health care system is mostly Federal tax liabilities, not local.
Again, you just do not know what you are talking about.
weed: "Hawaii passed a universal health care initiave and within 7 months, it failed."
I didn't know that Hawaii's universal health care "failed" (whatever that means) after only 7 mos. (which makes no sense), but I do know that universal health care has been thriving for years in Canada and that people from the US go to Canada to get the health they afford in the US. Universal health care has thrived in UK, France, and other countries for years.
The Pacificare pres. "who lied like Bush" was not a politician, and you obviously missed my point:
Those who would have you believe that universal health care is bad for you are either misguided (like you), misinformed, or outright liars (like the Pacificare pres.).
Why do you claim I am misguided? Because I do not agree with you, I am somehow misguided?
Maybe I know more about it than YOU do. Maybe I understand the history of the Government, the VA, Walter Reed, their failures, and why socialism has never worked. You do not deny politicians lie, yet you want to give them responsibility for your life.
uxco:"non union jobs are going bye bye just as fast as union jobs"
Okay...and???
What does this have to do with anything? The Unions have screwed up the Auto industry making American cars non-competitive. They have overpriced labor and now the car companies need bailouts. If we get rid of the unions, and make the cars more affordable, the US companies have a chance, otherwise they don't.
No hidden agenda here, just plain math and common sense.
I am not mad about anything. I knew that after 8 years of GOP and the dissatisfaction of people, Democrats would take over. That was no surprise. Now I only hope they will not bow to scrrewed up organizations like Unions and make the right decisions to end the madness and fix our problems.
This is not about politics for me, it is about doing what is right regardless of party. I hope Obama can help.
You obviously have no idea what I think, and your personal attacks on me, and questioning of what or who I am is not going to change the facts.
Unions are no longer useful. They have outlived their usefullness and cause more harm than good now. They have become partisan political machines, and do not speak for anyone who does not bow down to their political will.
Unions should not be political. They should represent ALL the people, or none.
Oh, you make the same arguments the drug companies make.
Each and every day the drug companies spend a fortune in TV ads to mkt their pills. "See your doctor to find out if our pill is right for you! (Warning! In some cases, use out of drug has caused blindness or even death. See a doctor immediately if you start bleeding out of your ass.")
And don't we all just love the relentless
TV ads for drugs to make you get it up and drugs to stop you from sneezing!
In the 90s, Californians voted on an initiative to provide universal health care to all residents, to be funded by a small payroll tax.
The president of Pacificare, the medical insurance provider for the employees of the company I worked for, sent out an email urging us all to vote against it. He claimed it would lead to rationing of health care, long waits, high costs and alleged all this was happening in Canada.
He lied like Bush, and the intiiative was defeated.
uxco:"Republicans are middle class bashing union busting SOBs"
Unions are antiquated relics that have no more use in today's society. The reason your job is going overseas is because the Unions. When UPS went on strike years ago because unskilled package handlers (A job a monkey could do) felt that $17 per hour to pick boxes up and move them 2 feet away was not enough, I realized Unions were going to drive people away from business in the USA.
I'm all for universal health care and the elimination of private medical insurance companies and for-profit medical services and supplies.
But please do not impose a stock transfer tax to help fund it. I'd rather pay a higher income tax on my profitable trades than have to pay a transfer tax on my losing trades.
I am not for socialism in any capacity. What we need is real free markets and real profit driven services like Lasik eye surgery. Because Doctors have to compete for your business, it is less expensive, better quality and gets safer all the time.
It's only natural that the technique of refractive eye surgery, or of ANY widely performed surgery, would be refined over time as more surgeries are performed and new technologies develop, whether or not the price of the procedure is mkt. controlled.
Andt contrary to what you suggest, the marketplace did not stumble upon
LASIK thru competition! LASIK is a patented procedure!
Doctors who perform LASIK were trained to do it, and not in the marketplace.
I never said the marketplace stumbled upon anything. Stay with the subject, don't make things up as you go.
Lasik is a perfect example of a medical procedure not covered by insurance, so free market forces have made it better, safer, and less expensive. It is a perfect model of how other health services could be if personal responsibility for the cost were incurred by the recipient.
Health care costs are part of the problem we have with job out sourcing; the burden of health care is put on the workers and employers, why cant we have a hybrid type of health care, use income tax money to pay into a non profit system that will pay for coverage for all Americana and then pay back a percentage in the form of a tax refund to the tax payers that dont use the coverage
For decades we've had socialism in the US in many "capacities":
Public schools, public libraries, public colleges & universities, public housing, public TV & radio, public arts, public recreation services, public parks, public police depts., public fire depts., public trash collection, public utilities, public street cleaners, public roads, public transportation, social security, medicare, etc.
But public health care for everyone?Noooo. That would be *socialism* !
People complain about Socialism but they dont have a problem sending American jobs to China one of the most communist counters in the world to the point that they own us now.
uxca:"Im talking about the ultra rich Republican base that is hell bent on driving down the middle class wage"
Why is "Republican Rich" more evil that "Democrat Rich"? Why are you not as upset with Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, or Hillary Clinton as you are with the Rich GOP?
Do you realize that the rich Dem's want to keep you poor and dependent on them for everything? How does that NOT piss you off?
Sad to say we have a two party system, so its one evil or the other
Democrats favorer the middle class and prefer trickle up economics that put money in the consumers wallets. Republicans know there is strength in numbers and thats the only reason they are trying to bust unions. A hard lesson they learned in the last elections. And all the union haters you run across are most likely bitter Republican voters that know they lost because of union voters or they are greedy business owners.
uxco:"all the union haters you run across are most likely bitter Republican voters...or they are greedy business owners".
Or maybe they are people like me who actually belong to a Union because we have no choice and know 1st hand that Unions are killing this country and driving jobs overseas.
Democrats don't favor anyone but Democrats. They want to keep everyone poor and dependent on them, so they stay in power. That is why they tax everything. Take from you, give to themselves.
(cont) This phony class warefare is insane. The rich Democrats tell you to hate the rich Republicans and the ignorant buy into it. John Kerry is just a rich as anyone in the GOP, maybe more so. He wantys to see you pay all your money to him so he can tell you how to live. How insane is that? HE does NOT have to live the way he wants YOU to live. Remember that the next time you bash some Republican just for being better off than you.
(cont) I was dirt poor growing up, no college, no prospects. I joined the military, got a skill. I worked full time and went to school full time on my own to better my life. Now I have things and I want to keep them. Why is that evil?
You call buisness owners "greedy", but I know many small business owners who just want to make a living without having to answer to someone else, and they employ others while they do it. How is THAT evil?
(cont) Somewhere along the line, someone convinced you that profit and greed are the same...and that is not true. To be profitable is to be succussful at what you do. I am sure you do not go to work each day to be unsuccessful or unprofitable...right? Does that make you greedy, or does that make you someone who gives an honest days work for an honest days pay? OR...does it make you someone who is getting paid way more than you are worth because a union has their foot on the neck of some company?
The answer to outsourcing is not driving down wages to the level of some third world country, Companys are moving off shore to take advantage of workers in other countries that dont have labor and environmental laws to save money to the detriment of American workers. We need fair trade laws not free trade one way laws. People complain about Socialism but they dont have a problem sending American jobs to China one of the most communist counters in the world to the point that they own us now
uxca:"The answer to outsourcing is not driving down wages to the level of some third world country"
I agree, but Unions are not the answer either. They have far outlived their usefullness. People like you see things only one way or the other. Either third world wages, or union outrageous wages. There is a middle ground. Things do not have to be totally black and white.
so your idea is to kill the unions and lose any political power that the working middle class people have and have Americans work for dirt-cheap?
unions are the only political power that the working middle class people have. Without unions we would have no push back against the ultra rich power base and we will be working for peanuts. Dont fall for their anti union propaganda its an attempt to divide the work force.
uxca:"unions are the only political power that the working middle class people have"
Bullcrap. Many middle class people work everyday without unions. I am middle class and they do not work for me. They work against me by excessivly driving up wages for jobs a monkey can do, and then wondering why jobs leave the country.
You people have your hands out wanting everything to be given to you and I have no use for people like you.
I do not need propaganda to know that Unions are bad. I am "covered" by a Union (Not by choice) and it is useless. It causes more work for everyone to get something done, and delays progress while we get Union buy in on anything we do. Union reps are power hungry ego maniacs, who parade around like they are Gods and everyone knows they are the biggest slackers in the organization.
(cont) This is what is wrong with people like you. YOU can't think or do anything for yourself, so you expect that no one else can. Government or a Union has to do everything for you because you are too ignorant or lazy to them for yourself.
I do not need Unions or Government to figure things out for me. I can do things on my own, and I am better off being allowed to do so. If you are not, that is not my problem or the problem of everyone else. Take some personal responsibility for yourself.
Just because some militant anti government anti union nut jobs has a bad experience with the union dont make the whole union system bad. If your union is so useless you could find a non union job with higher pay and better benefits. Why should a majority of worker that vote for a union suffer sub par wages and benefits just because some militant nut job has a problem with the whole world?
uxca:"Just because some militant anti government anti union nut jobs has a bad experience..."
The whole US Car industry has had a bad experience with Unions...so much so that they are asking the Government to bail them out, and give them money we all know they will never be able to pay back as long as Unions exist.
Do the math...who is the nut job here? The guy who knows Unions have killed the auto industry, or the guy who still thinks they help?
uxca:"Check out what happen to the Glass-Steagall Act"
So what you are saying is the Government screwed up by repealing the act in 1999 when Bill Clinton was President? The same Govenment you want to give you free health care and fix all your problems?
The bills were introduced in the U.S. Senate by Phil Gramm (R-Texas) and in the U.S. House of Representatives by Jim Leach (R-Iowa). The third lawmaker associated with the bill was Rep. Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. (R-Virginia), Chairman of the House Commerce Committee from 1995 to 2001. On May 6, 1999, the Senate passed the bills by a 54-44 vote along party lines (53 Republicans and one Democrat in favor; 44 Democrats opposed). So your saying it all falls on clinton?
No. You are missing the point. It was Government, no matter who is in the majority, no matter what party started it.
But, since you brought it up...Clinton DID sign it with no veto...right?
You strike me as one of those who will give credit to Clinton for things he had no hand in, and not blame Clinton for anything he did do, just because he is YOUR party guy. And...blame Bush for everything, no matter what, because he is not.
(cont) You make it seem as if Democrats are saints and Republicans are all the spawn of Satan. I got news for you, they are all the spawn of Satan. They all lie, they all do not care about you or me, and they all want power.
(cont) The Government is not your friend. They are not here to help you. They are here to help themselves. Your best interest is not their concern. THEIR best interests are.
(cont) Republicans want less Government intrusion into their own lives (except when intervention suits them...like Government prohibiting abortion). Democrats want more intrusion into your life because then the people are dependent on them for everything, and the people need those people in power to stay in power. Unfortunately, there is no real balance other than the two evils fighting among themselves and mass finger pointing from both.
(Cont) they got you union busting for them and you think your helping yourself this is how they control you without you knowing. Do you think the rich powerbase wants you in a union that can control voting power on labor issues? Hell NO!!!
No one has me doing ANYTHING for them. Unlike you, I am not a puppet for someone else.
No organization has to tell me what to do or how to think. I think for my self. YOU should try it some time.
I figured out a long time ago that you can not expect to pay unskilled labor a lot of money to do a job anyone can do, just to fit some organizations ideal of "Fair" and expect a good product for a decent price.
rocc:"For decades we've had socialism in the US in many "capacities"
Most of the things you mention are LOCALLY funded and needed. If everyone pays to have their own transportation, there is no need for public tran, but we can't have private police providing everyonme their own sets of laws, or schools teaching just anything, or no trash collection.
What we do not need is the screwed up FEDERAL Government rationing health care. Big Difference.
How would the private medical insurance companies and their share holders make a profit ? Think of the armies of laid off insurance company employees on the dole!
What you propose is heartless!
How can you expect quality health care without a profit incentive!
Health care is big business and should stay that way.
rocc:"How can you expect quality health care without a profit incentive"
You can't. But in it's current form, it does not work as good as it can with insurance companies paying and no individual or personal responsibility involved. People have to be able to shop for services, know the costs and negotiate price.
Again we can fix what we have without the mistake of throwing everything out and accepting a worse problem in Federal Government socialism.
Do you shop for a hospital to stay in and negotiate the price of a 2 week stay from $150,000 down to $100,000? And why would the hospital negotiate with you? What bargaining power do you have?
Canada, England, France and many other countries have better health care that US and all not-for-profit.
I've noticed more people are holding meetings and seem to be supporting HR 676! I think that's great!! I really hope more people catch on and get on-board! WE need HR 676! Nothing else is going to work; we've already seen that! Middlemen don't belong in the health care system!!
Actually, I do not watch Michael Moore nor take people like you seriously. I just believe in not letting people suffer .. Plain and simple.. Of course, I know its all about economics.. I will mold myself into this: I am human therefore I am all about money. If I ever see you wrecked on the side of the road in need of help or anyone .. I will just pass by thinking no need to help them since it I will not profit from it. If I can not gain ignore the situation and the market will help them.
(cont)Moore made a movie to try to influence politics. He has done this for the last two Presidential elections. His movies do not have to follow any protocol or measure for truth. He says it, you believe it, and you do not even run the numbers to find out if he is telling the truth or not. He says 47 million and you say, "Wow, that is horrible". I say, "Where did the numbers come from, what is real, and what is not"?
In the DVD extras he talks to two prof. at Harvard Law and Harvard Med. and they both say the same thing as him, but im sure that you and you're friends at fox new are much smarter than two professors at harvard right?
I bet you never had to deal with medical bills and insurance co pays that almost send you bankrupt, well my family has so fuck you you soulless tool. "it's not economically smart to do it" Cuz rich CEOs can't buy third and fourth homes with their bonus's for denying coverage
hads:"im sure that you and you're friends at fox new are much smarter than two professors at harvard right?"
I have no affiliation with "Fox", but being a professor at Harvard does not make you an expert on the real numbers of people uninsured. Moore counts 10 million illegals, 17 million who make a lot of money, and 14 million who are eligible for Government programs but do not enroll. Out of his claimed 47 million, that leaves an actual 6 million who are really poor and uninsured.
(cont)If we just created a citizenship test for healthcare (Non-Americans pay up front, or get no care), we could GIVE the remaining 6 million free care and not have to change 1 other thing. Now, add proficiency testing Doctors, making a loser pays litigation system, and regulating the maximum costs of procedures, we could really fix the whole system very quickly. Someone has to have a viable plan, and no one does. HR 676 is not the answer, it is just a shift of the problems to a worse system.
Well geez first of all about the illegals, they don't just let everyone walk through the door. Obviously they check ID's, now im sure some could get their hands on fake ID's but not all "10 million". I would also like to ask about the 17 million who make a lot of money? seriously that's the best you got? You must have forgotten how much health insurance costs. Yeah the 7000 annually is affordable to some, but that also rules out the possibility of a life threatening disease---
No. I have a lot more, but that is all you seem to be focused on. The problem here is that you socialists can not even be honest about the number of people who are really poor and without a health PLAN. If you could possibly stop making this, and everything else a crisis, maybe we could find some common ground and work toward a fix. With this fiscal bailout now in the works, there is even less money now than ever to pay for socialism.
im not socialist, i just believe that everyone in this country (who is legal) deserves healthcare, how can you disagree with that? Lower class citizens can't afford healthcare but they provide valuable services. People ARE going to get sick, and when they do they need to be treated, it's that simple. They should not be thrown out because they can't afford insurance, or didn't qualify. Why can't healthcare be like the fire n police dept?
hads:"i just believe that everyone in this country (who is legal) deserves healthcare, how can you disagree with that?"
I do not disagree with that. I just do not think we need to give EVERYONE "free" care on the taxpayers backs.
If we did a citizenship test on care, and made illegals pay up front, we could give the entire 6 million people who are actually poor and without a plan free care and not change one other thing.
It may sound radical but i believe if congress got paid half of what hey make now more would get done to help the middle and lower class. It's not that they don't care ( even though some don't) it's just difficult to imagine how hard life is for someone poorer than them when their making a good salary
hads:"it's just difficult to imagine how hard life is for someone poorer than them when their making a good salary"
Most do not even need the salary...so I do not think that is the issue. There is no accountability. I can not vote Hillary Clinton out of office because she is not in my state, but she makes laws that affect me.
If I could vote her out, I would, but I can't so she will remain. She has no obligation to help anyone not in her state. That is the problem for all of them.
The households of the "illegals" that you want to exclude are also taxpaying households. And they cannot afford to "pay up front" because they can't affford it.
Yet many citizens pay no taxes at all, e.g., children and retired people.
By 2050, more than half the US population will be over 50.
Even many employed citizens cannot afford health care or medical insurance.
rocc:" the "illegals"...cannot afford to "pay up front" because they can't affford it"
What part of "illegal" do you not understand? If they can not afford it, then they can go home. We are not responsible for ILLEGAL entrants to our country. By being here they are ILLEGAL. Broke the law to get here, and somehow WE are responsible to make sure they get health care? Are you NUTS?
--Car accident, etc. It gets very very expensive, and a middle class person cannot afford a $70,000 hospital bill (and that's not an uncommon amount). Yes there are a lot of uninsured people, but more than that it's those who are insured and are losing their homes(#1 reason for bankruptcy in 06-hospital bills) So we need Universal Healthcare because many are uninsured yes (even if it is your 6 million) but also because those who ARE insured have a big bullet to bite if by chance they get ill!
hads:"So we need Universal Healthcare because many are uninsured yes (even if it is your 6 million)"
6 milion is 2% of the population. We can fix what we have without going off the insanity deep end and opting for socialism.
First, be honest about the numbers. Second, deal in reality, not pie in the sky. Third, get people who really want to fix this instead of making promises they can't keep. Then maybe, we can fix the problems in the health care industry.
hads:"our police and fire departments are socialized"
That is local, not Federal, and it is not socialized. It is cost shared. We can not afford to keep our own police and fire ready in the odd chance we may need them.
As for 1, 2, and 3...fix the problems, do not resort to socialism which will make it worse.
yes it is cost shared, but it is a 'free' service/ technically it's paid for with our taxes so are a lot of things. It's called free healthcare but everyone knows that we pay for it with our taxes. And what about my other three points?? got nothing for them?
Many experts have said time and time again that Universal Healthcare is the answer. Noticed how I said EXPERTS, (Also MIT and Oxford have published books on how the US healthcare system is junk and universal healthcare is better)
It is not free. It is insurance we pay for, like in healthcare. We pay people to mitigate fire damage and criminal activity, like we pay to insurance to mitigate health concerns.
Your other three points have been answered over and over...read back through the 700+ comments. These are fixable problems, so fix them. We have done and can do great things without socialism.
The purpose of medical insurance is not to provide health care, but to mitigate
major medical expenses, esp., hospitalization.
This is true even if you have insurance that pays for preventative screenings
because the cost of annual screenings is still far less than the cost of annual insurance premiums.
An insurance company's primary mission is not to deliver quality health care to its subscribers, but to deliver big profits and dividends to its shareholders.
rocc:"The purpose of medical insurance is not to provide health care, but to mitigate major medical expenses"
Okay...so you have defined a problem, now we can define a fix for that problem. We can fix the problem through free markets and personal responsibility.
Look up "Sick in America" with John Stossil on YouTube. He explains how it is proven to work already.
rocc:"Everyone needs health care, so why shouldn't the fed. govt. provide it?"
Because they can not do it...or anything else right. And, not everyone NEEDS healthcare. Many people live their whole life never or rarely seeing a Doctor.
Everyone needs food...why aren't you asking the Government to provide that? Everyone needs clothing, why shouldn't they provide that? Everyone needs water, why not demand Fed Water?
Yes, It seems many comment on keeping this market based system. Everyone believes I guess the basic human need is profit before care. I remember when my mother had cancer she had to play games with the insurance company constantly denying when in fact she had coverage. So everyone that thinks they have a correct opinion why private insurance should remain are wrong. If you are sick the last thing on your mind is playing games with some schmuck looking to make profit off of you.
aza:"Lasik...Without it you'd have no arguement at all would you Weeda?"
It is a PERFECT example of a medical procedure that the price has lowered, and quality and safety have increased, due 100% to free market competition. Why would I not bring it up?
I have plenty of other reasons not to want to go over to the dark side and accept socialism, but really, this makes the point so well, all you can do is get frustrated and send me a message like you did. Do you have anything else?
(cont)All we have to do is ask what things cost...but we don't. We could shop around for care and Doctors would compete for our business...liek everyone else does.
The problem here is they have a blank check. They can charge $300 for an aspirin because someone else is paying for it. Will this get better under Government control? The Government pays $600 for a toilet seat and $500 for a hammer, so I can not see that $300 for an aspirin would be seen as outrageous by them.
(cont)You suggest we go from bad to worse. Not only not allow free markets to drive prices down, but have the worst fiscal managers in history running the show, and add levels of bureaucracy and paperwork to the equation.
The big problem here is that you come here and advocate all this for us, but you would not have to live with it. You are a foreigner and none of what we would have to deal with would apply to you. So I have to ask, why do you come here and tell us how we should live?
I have no intentions on telling you how to live! I also do not 'come here and advocate 'all' this for you.
This is a subject that needs to be addressed, maybe your right and maybe by 'your' population. The point is I was on this thread long before you and was discussing the issue not insulting ppl and not making a game of it. If you guys could discuss the issue between yourselves you may be able to come up with some sort of feasible solution.
Cont..You act as a child and how can anyone can converse with you without you spitting back insults is beyond me. If you paid a little attention of other's views and were not so stuck in your rut of believing 'Universal Healthcare and Socialism' go hand in hand you would have jumped the first step necessary for progress. Only then could you get any further. Maybe by listening to others you could enlighten yourself to the options of better healthcare for the generations to come.
aza:"If you guys could discuss the issue between yourselves you may be able to come up with some sort of feasible solution."
We can and we will. So I expect I will not see you here anymore, since you acknowledge that it is none of your business, and you do not advocate this for us.
Please tell which countries that have universal healthcare or anyhthing similar are 'socialist countries'? Is the put plainly enough for you to understand?
aza:"You poor buggar. Your a vietnam vet and on a pension"
No, I am not a VietNam vet and I am not on a pension.
This is the problem...you have no idea what you are talking about. I am a Vet and I do have a VA disability, but I also work very hard for a regular paycheck. I do not sit on my ass and collect welfare.
Actually, WeedaPeople you know people like you make me think "if a huge asteroid were going to collide with our planet that would wipe out all mankind - people like you would apply economics to trying to mount an effort to divert it" - You would think hmmm.. it will cost too much we can't do it.. we all just have to die.. It's cost effective that way.. death is more feasible.. Why save humanity right? I mean it makes more sense to have gold remain but no humans around.. makes sense right?
The people who want to sell you on the concept of UHC think they first need to inflate numbers and tell you we have a crisis. They say 47 million people are poor and without care. The truth is: 10 million of them are illegals, 17 million are not poor (Make over $50K), and 14 million of them are elligible for Government assistance but do not enroll. So actually, 6 million people are really poor and without a health PLAN...not without care.
(cont) So why do they lie to us and say that so many more are poor and without care? Because the 47 million figure would mean we have a crisis, and it needs to be resolved immediately. Whatever solution comes along, we need to adopt it to end the crisis situation. But the crisis is a lie.
This is how they want to sell you on socialism. Socialism is repugnant to Americans. We do not want our taxes taken and Governments to control us. It is totally UnAmerican. The only way to sell it is to lie.
(cont)So they lie to us, and try to sell us socialism. Why? Because it keeps their people in power.
Socialists want to control you. The only way they can is to keep you needing them. If you need them to give you health care, then you have to keep electing the people who will "give" you the most. It their way to increase their power it is a dependency cycle we can ill afford.
(cont)America is the land of the free, and the land of opportunity. It is not the land of the hand out or the land of dependency.
If you need to rely on your Government to take your hard earned money and give you back their version of health care, then you are not free. Your freedom is limited by the amount of care the Government will give you, and your freedom is limited by the confiscation of your money to pay for it.
Do not buy into socialism. We are not Europe and do not want to be.
The Baby Boomers are ready to retire. The previous comment shows the U.S. Census figures for aging Americans. When they retire, they stop paying payroll income taxes. When they stop payign payroll income taxes, where will teh money come from to run Government, and pay for entitlements like Universal health care?
If we go to a socialist system, and it fails (The numbers already show us it will), then what? How do we go back to privatization, and how long would it take?
(cont) We have 303 million in total U.S. population right now. If we are going to lose 90+ million people from the rolls of the taxpayer, who will be there to support them? Who is going to pay for all the entitlements?
No one.
The bottm line is there are not enough people to pay for all the socialist nonsense that is being pushed by people who do not even live in this country. We can no longer afford to be distracted by outside influences who wish to derail the conversation.
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MrBOBBYtheLION 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I have several petitions where you can demand single payer health care from COMPANIES that give money to conservatives in both parties. Sign them and get as many people as you can to sign them. Go to the following web site which I have encoded backwards take each letter from right to left and then create the address.
GRO.ZTARCOMED
Thank you.
WWWoDMOCRATSoORG 2 years ago
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It is kind of amazing some "people" think health costs are like buying a car or any other commercial proposition (eg: all the insurance co-sponsored posts on Youtube by varying "people"). You can plan to buy a car or a house: it's your own responsibility and your money allocation--but you can't plan a medical affliction. Not the same. I simply note one anti-health plan person on Ytube had her two fave videos as a) a revolver shooting into a tank, and b) a clip of Milton F'man on "Greed". True!!
seriousnews2 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Obama wants to create a "death panel" that would deny care to the neediest Americans. You will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. The Democratic health care bills would encourage euthanasia. The reform plans will lead to rationing, or the government determining which medical procedures a patient can have.
hellotommy 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
FIVE (5) THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT OBAMA'S UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE PLAN:
COME TO MY PROFILE PAGE on youtube where President Hopebama's Health Care Plan is well explained in simple terms.
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librophile 2 years ago
weed: "Right now, you are talking from a position of ignorance and arrogance, and you are just so wrong."
You have the monopoly on arrogance, pretentiousness and pseudo-arguments.
You sound like a rabid evangelist of the free mkt. gospel.
This channel is clearly your pulpit. Continue to preach your tired gospel to anyone who will listen.
But leave me out of it. I've better things to do with my time.
Don't address more comments to me.
I will delete and ignore w/o reading them.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"Don't address more comments to me. I will delete and ignore w/o reading them."
Good...take your ball and go home like a child. Exactly what I expected. You can dish it out, but you certainly can not take it, or hold your own in a debate.
When you are ready to have a civil discussion and present facts, you know where to find me. Unlike you, I am not going to back away friom anything I have said.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: "Go to college, get an education. Study Micro and macro economics, Government, History, and accounting like I did, and try your best to get perfect grades like I did. Then come back and talk to us about what you know."
I already studied those subjects when I earned my BA in math from UCLA. I also have a JD from UCLA's Law School.
I specialize in stock index and financial derivatives.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"I already studied those subjects when I earned my BA in math from UCLA. I also have a JD from UCLA's Law School"
Then you need to get a refund...because you obviously did not learn a thing. You have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: "Insurance paying for services is NOT free market. "
If you believe that, you don't know what you're talking about.
How free is your "free mkt"? You want to repeal child labor laws, min. wage, HIPPA, workplace health&safety regs., OSSHA, EPA regs and corp. income taxes? Should we allow Malaysian style sweatshops?"
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"You want to repeal child labor laws, min. wage, HIPPA, workplace health&safety regs., OSSHA, EPA regs and corp. income taxes?"
NO.
Show me where I ever said ANY of that.
Good luck finding it, because it did not happen. If you want to attribute anything to me, quote me.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: No..[illegals] are "PARTIAL" tax payers. They can not pay income tax without a "Tax ID" and a legal status."
No. SSNs are sold. You need
an SSN to get hired. Your employer must file your W4, W2 and payroll taxes under your SSN.
The employer doesn't even know the SSN is phony unless he uses "eVerify".
But not everyone's required to use eVerify, and when used, it's used to screen new hires, not old employees.
Most illegal hires are caught via raids. Not via eVerify.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"You need an SSN to get hired"
Most illegals get paid under the table. Off the book...cash. Nanny's, house cleaners, day laborers, landscape helpers, construction...
Really...is THIS your argument for illegals being good taxpayers?" REALLY?
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: "We are not France, Canada or the UK. We are the USA and my point all along is that it will not work HERE. Hawaii was a perfect example. "
Your argument that it wouldn't work in the US because we are the US is not
persuasive.
And you contention that Hawaii proves the point only begs the question: Why didn't it work in Hawaii?
I have friends in Canada, France and England. I know a thing or 2 about UHC and what works.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"Your argument that it wouldn't work in the US because we are the US is not
persuasive"
Just because you are too ignorant to be persuaded does not mean they are not good arguments. It just means you refuse to see the truth. That is not a failure on my part.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
rocc:"I didn't know that Hawaii's universal health care "failed".
weed: "Exactly...YOU did not know...but It did fail...apparently I DO know more about it than you do. "
You didn't say why it "failed" after only 7 mos. You didn't even define "failure".
And it makes no sense. It would take years to implement such a pgm. and determine whether or not it works.
And even if it "failed" (whatever that means) in Hawaii, that doesn't prove it could never work in Hawaii or on a fed. level.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"You didn't say why it "failed"
I did not know I had to tell you everything. You claim to know everything, and apparently, you didn't know the first thing about that.
Look it up...it is public knowledge.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: "Why do you claim I am misguided? Because I do not agree with you, I am somehow misguided?"
Because you insist UHC won't work in the US despite that fact that it works elsewhere, and you tow the party line of the pvt. ins. companies.
Don't take it personally.
weed: "Maybe I know more about it than YOU do. Maybe I understand the history of the Government, the VA, Walter Reed, their failures, and why socialism has never worked. "
Your arguments and positions are not new to me.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"Because you insist UHC won't work in the US despite that fact that it works elsewhere, and you tow the party line of the pvt. ins. companies"
I am not towing any party line and the USA is NOT elsewhere. I am not affiliated with any "Party".
How can I not take personal attacks and deceptive attempts at association with persons or groups that I have no affiliation any other way than personally?
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
rocc:"Your arguments and positions are not new to me"
Even though they are not new to you, you still do not know how to answer them. It seems that I understand the failures of the Federal Government and you don't.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: "I think you have run out of arguments so now you just are frustrated and want to personally attack me because you have nothing else."
My saying that you've made the same arguments as the drug companies is not a personal attack. It's simply an observation.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"My saying that you've made the same arguments as the drug companies is not a personal attack"
It is a misdirected personal attack to try to associate me with companies I have no affiliation with.
I have nothing to do with them and I am not responsible for any argument they make.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
rocc: "Oh, you make the same arguments the drug companies make"
weed: "Like what exactly?"
I posted that right under your remarks,
so go back and read what you said. I haven't the time or inclination to search for it. Unfortunately, YouTube doesn't make it easy to search.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"I posted that right under your remarks, so go back and read what you said"
I don't see it, so it must not have happened. If you want to make claims about something I said, then quote it back.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: "Everyone needs clothing, why shouldn't they provide that?"
The fed. govt. indirectly pays for clothing via income tax deductions for charitable donations of clothing.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"The fed. govt. indirectly pays..."
Indirectly paying is not supplying everyone with clothing ofr free.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: "Everyone needs food...why aren't you asking the Government to provide that? Everyone needs clothing, why shouldn't they provide that? Everyone needs water, why not demand Fed Water?"
Not every taxpayer has school age children, yet he still pays for public schools.
Not every taxpayer wants wars, yet he still pays taxes that make the wars possible.
Water is free at public fountains.
The fed. govt. already funds food stamp pgms, public housing, health clinics, drug rehab, etc.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"The fed. govt. already funds food stamp pgms, public housing, health clinics, drug rehab, etc."
All of which keep poor people poor and dependent on Government. They are a classic failure.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: "Everyone needs food...why aren't you asking the Government to provide that? Everyone needs clothing, why shouldn't they provide that? Everyone needs water, why not demand Fed Water?"
That's not the point.
You said UHC is bad because it's *socialism*. I countered by pointing out (via a long list of public services, most fully or partly federally funded) that we've already had socialism for decades.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"That's not the point"
That IS the point, you just do not want it to be the point. The socialism we have had has not worked. All it has done is kept poor people poor and dependent on Government.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
@wcbrocc: I hope you've changed your position over the last few months & now help with keeping America free. While it's true we've had many socialist programs, we certainly don't need any more. The country is bankrupt. So it's not working out so well for the communist plan, is it? Even without starting anew health system & destroying one of the last industries we have. What has the fed gov done that gives you so much confidence in their ability to provide quality health care for all? ???
Marleyites 2 years ago
weed: "... not everyone NEEDS healthcare. Many people live their whole life never or rarely seeing a Doctor."
Everyone needs at least an annual preventative checkup. As people age, they tend to have more health problems. Anyone, no matter how healthy, can have a serious accident require expensive medical treatment.
Those who are more healthy would cost less to care for that those who are less healthy.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"Everyone needs at least an annual preventative checkup"
Not tue. My Grandfather never saw doctors unless absoluetly necessary and lived to be 86.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: [the fed. govt. can not provide health care]...or anything else right. "
Such sweeping statements.
Fed. govt. employees have been well covered for decades. Why not extend the same benefits to everyone?
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"Why not extend the same benefits to everyone?"
What benefits are you talking about? Federal Employees get regular medical insurance they pay for just like from any other employer.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: "[Operations] would be less expensive [if not covered by insurance]. That is proven by the competition Lasik... "
No. LASIK is an example of an (uncovered) simple common elective surgery. Many covered surgeries have comparable is cost.
The med. ins. companies do what you think the consumer should do: negotiate the prices with providers. The actual cost of many covered surgeries is comparable to LASIK. It's the hospital stay that is expensive.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Example: My mother had a femur replacement that required a 9 day hospital stay. The in-hosptal surgery, which is fairly common, cost about $3600 total, but the hospital stay was about $100,000 before the insurance company cut it down to $75,000.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"Many covered surgeries have comparable is cost"
Speak english please. WTF are you talking about?
Insurance pays, so most of the time people have no idea what costs are, and they do not care because the insurance is paying.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
There are two kinds of people in this world. The first kind are the ones who can study the concept of a fire, understand the fire, and use the fire to their advantage, not to be harmed by the destructive properties of that fire. The second kind are the ones who have to experience getting severely burned several times before they can relate to the destructive power of the fire.
Let's study the fire of Government before we get burned beyond recognition.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
I do not get this at all.
Politicians lie. We all know that. Yet people are willing to trust their very lives to people they already know they can not trust to tell them the truth.
We all saw how the Government works in New Orleans. We all know we did not want to be in those peoples shoes. Yet some people are so willign to turn responsibility for their health over to the same exact Government who failed the people of New Orleans.
What makes people think like this?
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
(cont) But it is a whole new administration...right? But aren't most of the same people working for the agencies? Aren't most of the same politicians still running things? Did so much REALLY change when we got a new President...or is most of the Federal Government the exact same as when Katrina flooded New Orleans and the response was a whole lot less than desirable? Aren't most of the Senators and Congressmen the same as when Bush 1 was in office?
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: "...so you have defined a problem...we can fix the problem through free markets and personal responsibility..."
Free mkt is the problem, not the solution.
Free mkt created the pvt med. ins. monster, enables medical costs to keep rising faster than anything else, and exploits the fact that everyone
needs medical care.
Does "personal responsibilty" mean
"diet and exercise" or shopping for cheapest doctors, drugs and hospitals and so-called "health savings accounts"? LOL
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"Free mkt created the pvt med. ins. monster"
Insurance paying for services is NOT free market. AGAIN, you just do not know what you are talking about.
Go to college, get an education. Study Micro and macro economics, Government, History, and accounting like I did, and try your best to get perfect grades like I did. Then come back and talk to us about what you know.
Right now, you are talking from a position of ignorance and arrogance, and you are just so wrong.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: "What part of "illegal" do you not understand?"
Such a narrow view.
My point was that the "illegals" you say are a burden to the taxpayers are themselves taxpayers ! They're also source of cheap labor that benefits the economy. They wouldn't come here seeking work if there was no demand for their services.
But I wouldn't expect you to understand that.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"My point was that the "illegals" you say are a burden to the taxpayers are themselves taxpayers"
No..they are "PARTIAL" tax payers. They can not pay income tax without a "Tax ID" and a legal status. They can only pay sales taxes on local purchases which are mostly LOCAL taxes. The Health care system is mostly Federal tax liabilities, not local.
Again, you just do not know what you are talking about.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: "Hawaii passed a universal health care initiave and within 7 months, it failed."
I didn't know that Hawaii's universal health care "failed" (whatever that means) after only 7 mos. (which makes no sense), but I do know that universal health care has been thriving for years in Canada and that people from the US go to Canada to get the health they afford in the US. Universal health care has thrived in UK, France, and other countries for years.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"I didn't know that Hawaii's universal health care "failed".
Exactly...YOU did not know...but It did fail...apparently I DO know more about it than you do.
We are not France, Canada or the UK. We are the USA and my point all along is that it will not work HERE. Hawaii was a perfect example.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
weed: "...ALL politicians lie. So what?..."
The Pacificare pres. "who lied like Bush" was not a politician, and you obviously missed my point:
Those who would have you believe that universal health care is bad for you are either misguided (like you), misinformed, or outright liars (like the Pacificare pres.).
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"...are either misguided (like you)..."
Why do you claim I am misguided? Because I do not agree with you, I am somehow misguided?
Maybe I know more about it than YOU do. Maybe I understand the history of the Government, the VA, Walter Reed, their failures, and why socialism has never worked. You do not deny politicians lie, yet you want to give them responsibility for your life.
You do not think that is nuts?
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
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wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Hello non union jobs are going bye bye just as fast as union jobs.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxco:"non union jobs are going bye bye just as fast as union jobs"
Okay...and???
What does this have to do with anything? The Unions have screwed up the Auto industry making American cars non-competitive. They have overpriced labor and now the car companies need bailouts. If we get rid of the unions, and make the cars more affordable, the US companies have a chance, otherwise they don't.
No hidden agenda here, just plain math and common sense.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
You voted for McCain or the green party, right?
And your mad you lost because of the union voters.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxco:"And your mad you lost"
I am not mad about anything. I knew that after 8 years of GOP and the dissatisfaction of people, Democrats would take over. That was no surprise. Now I only hope they will not bow to scrrewed up organizations like Unions and make the right decisions to end the madness and fix our problems.
This is not about politics for me, it is about doing what is right regardless of party. I hope Obama can help.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Youre a puppet and dont even know it. They got you trying to screw yourself.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxco:"Youre a puppet and dont even know it"
I do not bow to any organization...like YOU do. YOU have no right to call ANYONE a puppet.
The only ones screwing themselves are the Unions, and the suckers like you who try to sell them.
Unions are pricing themselves out of a job and expecting the Government to save them.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Your one of those union management guys right?
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxco:"(You're) one of those union management guys right?
No. I am not management and do not pay union dues.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
You think the business community is just going to do whats right for you (if youre a worker) and other workers with out some checks and balances. OK
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxco:"You think"
You obviously have no idea what I think, and your personal attacks on me, and questioning of what or who I am is not going to change the facts.
Unions are no longer useful. They have outlived their usefullness and cause more harm than good now. They have become partisan political machines, and do not speak for anyone who does not bow down to their political will.
Unions should not be political. They should represent ALL the people, or none.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Oh, you make the same arguments the drug companies make.
Each and every day the drug companies spend a fortune in TV ads to mkt their pills. "See your doctor to find out if our pill is right for you! (Warning! In some cases, use out of drug has caused blindness or even death. See a doctor immediately if you start bleeding out of your ass.")
And don't we all just love the relentless
TV ads for drugs to make you get it up and drugs to stop you from sneezing!
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"Oh, you make the same arguments the drug companies make"
Like what exactly?
I think you have run out of arguments so now you just are frustrated and want to personally attack me because you have nothing else.
Come back whn you have something of substance to discuss.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
In the 90s, Californians voted on an initiative to provide universal health care to all residents, to be funded by a small payroll tax.
The president of Pacificare, the medical insurance provider for the employees of the company I worked for, sent out an email urging us all to vote against it. He claimed it would lead to rationing of health care, long waits, high costs and alleged all this was happening in Canada.
He lied like Bush, and the intiiative was defeated.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"He lied like Bush"
ALL politicians lie. So what?
I do not know what any politician lying has to do with this...and why you have to resort to this kind of useless ignorance is way beyond reason.
Hawaii passed a universal health care initiave and within 7 months, it failed.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Republicans are middle class bashing union busting SOBs
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxco:"Republicans are middle class bashing union busting SOBs"
Unions are antiquated relics that have no more use in today's society. The reason your job is going overseas is because the Unions. When UPS went on strike years ago because unskilled package handlers (A job a monkey could do) felt that $17 per hour to pick boxes up and move them 2 feet away was not enough, I realized Unions were going to drive people away from business in the USA.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
I'm all for universal health care and the elimination of private medical insurance companies and for-profit medical services and supplies.
But please do not impose a stock transfer tax to help fund it. I'd rather pay a higher income tax on my profitable trades than have to pay a transfer tax on my losing trades.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
I am not for socialism in any capacity. What we need is real free markets and real profit driven services like Lasik eye surgery. Because Doctors have to compete for your business, it is less expensive, better quality and gets safer all the time.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
BTW, Lasik isn't covered by any insurance. Only those who can afford receive it.
If competition for profit keep prices down, then why does cost of medical care and medical insurance keep going up?
In the US, medical care is rationed to those who can afford it, yet US health care is lousy compared to Canada, France, England, and even Cuba!
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"Lasik isn't covered by any insurance"
Exactly. That is why Lasik is the perfect example of direct competition, free markets and how things could work properly in a "for profit" system.
Because it is NOT covered by insurance, Doctors have to tell you a price and compete for your business, making it safer, cheaper, and better.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Oh, doctors will tell you the price if you ask. My prefered provider doctor said it would be $600. But the insurance co.
said it was worth only $100, of which I had to pay only $10. Had I had been uninsured, it would have cost me $600!
Surely you don't believe that operations covered by insurance on not as safe, cheap or good as they would be without insurance?
You think Lasik procedures in Canada, France and England are less safe, more costly and worse? It so, you're wrong.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"Surely you don't believe that operations covered by insurance on not as safe, cheap..."
They would be less expensive. That is proven by the competition Lasik provides as an example..
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Nonsense.
It's only natural that the technique of refractive eye surgery, or of ANY widely performed surgery, would be refined over time as more surgeries are performed and new technologies develop, whether or not the price of the procedure is mkt. controlled.
Andt contrary to what you suggest, the marketplace did not stumble upon
LASIK thru competition! LASIK is a patented procedure!
Doctors who perform LASIK were trained to do it, and not in the marketplace.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"the marketplace did not stumble upon LASIK"
I never said the marketplace stumbled upon anything. Stay with the subject, don't make things up as you go.
Lasik is a perfect example of a medical procedure not covered by insurance, so free market forces have made it better, safer, and less expensive. It is a perfect model of how other health services could be if personal responsibility for the cost were incurred by the recipient.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Health care costs are part of the problem we have with job out sourcing; the burden of health care is put on the workers and employers, why cant we have a hybrid type of health care, use income tax money to pay into a non profit system that will pay for coverage for all Americana and then pay back a percentage in the form of a tax refund to the tax payers that dont use the coverage
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
Because socialism will not work here.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Oh, really?
For decades we've had socialism in the US in many "capacities":
Public schools, public libraries, public colleges & universities, public housing, public TV & radio, public arts, public recreation services, public parks, public police depts., public fire depts., public trash collection, public utilities, public street cleaners, public roads, public transportation, social security, medicare, etc.
But public health care for everyone?Noooo. That would be *socialism* !
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
People complain about Socialism but they dont have a problem sending American jobs to China one of the most communist counters in the world to the point that they own us now.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxca:"People complain about Socialism but they dont have a problem sending American jobs to China"
Who said we have no problem with sending jobs to China? Not me.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Weedapeople I get what youre laying down
Im talking about the ultra rich Republican base that is hell bent on driving down the middle class wage to the level of a 3rd world country.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxca:"Im talking about the ultra rich Republican base that is hell bent on driving down the middle class wage"
Why is "Republican Rich" more evil that "Democrat Rich"? Why are you not as upset with Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, or Hillary Clinton as you are with the Rich GOP?
Do you realize that the rich Dem's want to keep you poor and dependent on them for everything? How does that NOT piss you off?
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Sad to say we have a two party system, so its one evil or the other
Democrats favorer the middle class and prefer trickle up economics that put money in the consumers wallets. Republicans know there is strength in numbers and thats the only reason they are trying to bust unions. A hard lesson they learned in the last elections. And all the union haters you run across are most likely bitter Republican voters that know they lost because of union voters or they are greedy business owners.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxco:"all the union haters you run across are most likely bitter Republican voters...or they are greedy business owners".
Or maybe they are people like me who actually belong to a Union because we have no choice and know 1st hand that Unions are killing this country and driving jobs overseas.
Democrats don't favor anyone but Democrats. They want to keep everyone poor and dependent on them, so they stay in power. That is why they tax everything. Take from you, give to themselves.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
(cont) This phony class warefare is insane. The rich Democrats tell you to hate the rich Republicans and the ignorant buy into it. John Kerry is just a rich as anyone in the GOP, maybe more so. He wantys to see you pay all your money to him so he can tell you how to live. How insane is that? HE does NOT have to live the way he wants YOU to live. Remember that the next time you bash some Republican just for being better off than you.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
(cont) I was dirt poor growing up, no college, no prospects. I joined the military, got a skill. I worked full time and went to school full time on my own to better my life. Now I have things and I want to keep them. Why is that evil?
You call buisness owners "greedy", but I know many small business owners who just want to make a living without having to answer to someone else, and they employ others while they do it. How is THAT evil?
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
(cont) Somewhere along the line, someone convinced you that profit and greed are the same...and that is not true. To be profitable is to be succussful at what you do. I am sure you do not go to work each day to be unsuccessful or unprofitable...right? Does that make you greedy, or does that make you someone who gives an honest days work for an honest days pay? OR...does it make you someone who is getting paid way more than you are worth because a union has their foot on the neck of some company?
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Somewhere along the line, someone convinced you that only people who can afford it deserve health care.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
The answer to outsourcing is not driving down wages to the level of some third world country, Companys are moving off shore to take advantage of workers in other countries that dont have labor and environmental laws to save money to the detriment of American workers. We need fair trade laws not free trade one way laws. People complain about Socialism but they dont have a problem sending American jobs to China one of the most communist counters in the world to the point that they own us now
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxca:"The answer to outsourcing is not driving down wages to the level of some third world country"
I agree, but Unions are not the answer either. They have far outlived their usefullness. People like you see things only one way or the other. Either third world wages, or union outrageous wages. There is a middle ground. Things do not have to be totally black and white.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
so your idea is to kill the unions and lose any political power that the working middle class people have and have Americans work for dirt-cheap?
unions are the only political power that the working middle class people have. Without unions we would have no push back against the ultra rich power base and we will be working for peanuts. Dont fall for their anti union propaganda its an attempt to divide the work force.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxca:"unions are the only political power that the working middle class people have"
Bullcrap. Many middle class people work everyday without unions. I am middle class and they do not work for me. They work against me by excessivly driving up wages for jobs a monkey can do, and then wondering why jobs leave the country.
You people have your hands out wanting everything to be given to you and I have no use for people like you.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
uxca:"Dont fall for their anti union propaganda"
I do not need propaganda to know that Unions are bad. I am "covered" by a Union (Not by choice) and it is useless. It causes more work for everyone to get something done, and delays progress while we get Union buy in on anything we do. Union reps are power hungry ego maniacs, who parade around like they are Gods and everyone knows they are the biggest slackers in the organization.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
(cont) This is what is wrong with people like you. YOU can't think or do anything for yourself, so you expect that no one else can. Government or a Union has to do everything for you because you are too ignorant or lazy to them for yourself.
I do not need Unions or Government to figure things out for me. I can do things on my own, and I am better off being allowed to do so. If you are not, that is not my problem or the problem of everyone else. Take some personal responsibility for yourself.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Just because some militant anti government anti union nut jobs has a bad experience with the union dont make the whole union system bad. If your union is so useless you could find a non union job with higher pay and better benefits. Why should a majority of worker that vote for a union suffer sub par wages and benefits just because some militant nut job has a problem with the whole world?
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxca:"Just because some militant anti government anti union nut jobs has a bad experience..."
The whole US Car industry has had a bad experience with Unions...so much so that they are asking the Government to bail them out, and give them money we all know they will never be able to pay back as long as Unions exist.
Do the math...who is the nut job here? The guy who knows Unions have killed the auto industry, or the guy who still thinks they help?
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Before the economy was pulled out from under all of us by the banking A-holes the automakers made money hand over fist.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxco:"Before the economy was pulled out from under all of us by the banking A-holes..."
Fanny and Freddy were told they had to give loans to people who could not afford them, and could not pay them back by the Government.
Your anger is totally misplaced.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Check out what happen to the Glass-Steagall Act and that will shed some light on that for you.
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxca:"Check out what happen to the Glass-Steagall Act"
So what you are saying is the Government screwed up by repealing the act in 1999 when Bill Clinton was President? The same Govenment you want to give you free health care and fix all your problems?
Is that correct?
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
The bills were introduced in the U.S. Senate by Phil Gramm (R-Texas) and in the U.S. House of Representatives by Jim Leach (R-Iowa). The third lawmaker associated with the bill was Rep. Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. (R-Virginia), Chairman of the House Commerce Committee from 1995 to 2001. On May 6, 1999, the Senate passed the bills by a 54-44 vote along party lines (53 Republicans and one Democrat in favor; 44 Democrats opposed). So your saying it all falls on clinton?
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxco:"So your saying it all falls on (Clinton)?"
No. You are missing the point. It was Government, no matter who is in the majority, no matter what party started it.
But, since you brought it up...Clinton DID sign it with no veto...right?
You strike me as one of those who will give credit to Clinton for things he had no hand in, and not blame Clinton for anything he did do, just because he is YOUR party guy. And...blame Bush for everything, no matter what, because he is not.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
(cont) You make it seem as if Democrats are saints and Republicans are all the spawn of Satan. I got news for you, they are all the spawn of Satan. They all lie, they all do not care about you or me, and they all want power.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
(cont) The Government is not your friend. They are not here to help you. They are here to help themselves. Your best interest is not their concern. THEIR best interests are.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
(cont) Republicans want less Government intrusion into their own lives (except when intervention suits them...like Government prohibiting abortion). Democrats want more intrusion into your life because then the people are dependent on them for everything, and the people need those people in power to stay in power. Unfortunately, there is no real balance other than the two evils fighting among themselves and mass finger pointing from both.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
(Cont) they got you union busting for them and you think your helping yourself this is how they control you without you knowing. Do you think the rich powerbase wants you in a union that can control voting power on labor issues? Hell NO!!!
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxca:"they got you union busting for them"
No one has me doing ANYTHING for them. Unlike you, I am not a puppet for someone else.
No organization has to tell me what to do or how to think. I think for my self. YOU should try it some time.
I figured out a long time ago that you can not expect to pay unskilled labor a lot of money to do a job anyone can do, just to fit some organizations ideal of "Fair" and expect a good product for a decent price.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Weeda
So your answer to outsourcing is lowering our wages to the level of a 3rd world country
FluxCapacitor2008 2 years ago
uxca:"So your answer to outsourcing is lowering our wages to the level of a 3rd world country"
No. That is not my answer at all. My answer is o get rid of unions and have fair wages, not cost prohibitive wages that create outsourcing.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
rocc:"For decades we've had socialism in the US in many "capacities"
Most of the things you mention are LOCALLY funded and needed. If everyone pays to have their own transportation, there is no need for public tran, but we can't have private police providing everyonme their own sets of laws, or schools teaching just anything, or no trash collection.
What we do not need is the screwed up FEDERAL Government rationing health care. Big Difference.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Who do you think helps pay to build and maintain interstate highways?
Almost everything I listed receives partial, if not total, funding from the federal govt.
Even local police depts. get federal funding.
Everyone also needs health care, no matter what city or state they live in. So why do you oppose the federal govt. paying for it?
No, better that the private health insurance companies ration health care. 35% of the cost of health care goes to insurance companies.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Non-profit system?
How would the private medical insurance companies and their share holders make a profit ? Think of the armies of laid off insurance company employees on the dole!
What you propose is heartless!
How can you expect quality health care without a profit incentive!
Health care is big business and should stay that way.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"How can you expect quality health care without a profit incentive"
You can't. But in it's current form, it does not work as good as it can with insurance companies paying and no individual or personal responsibility involved. People have to be able to shop for services, know the costs and negotiate price.
Again we can fix what we have without the mistake of throwing everything out and accepting a worse problem in Federal Government socialism.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Shop for health services and negotiate price?
This is another stupid fiction of the Bush admin.
Do you shop for a hospital to stay in and negotiate the price of a 2 week stay from $150,000 down to $100,000? And why would the hospital negotiate with you? What bargaining power do you have?
Canada, England, France and many other countries have better health care that US and all not-for-profit.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
I've noticed more people are holding meetings and seem to be supporting HR 676! I think that's great!! I really hope more people catch on and get on-board! WE need HR 676! Nothing else is going to work; we've already seen that! Middlemen don't belong in the health care system!!
odetomy 3 years ago
Actually, I do not watch Michael Moore nor take people like you seriously. I just believe in not letting people suffer .. Plain and simple.. Of course, I know its all about economics.. I will mold myself into this: I am human therefore I am all about money. If I ever see you wrecked on the side of the road in need of help or anyone .. I will just pass by thinking no need to help them since it I will not profit from it. If I can not gain ignore the situation and the market will help them.
wobblebrain 3 years ago
Weeda, read back.... i couldn't be bothered with you!
azajeni 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
(cont)Moore made a movie to try to influence politics. He has done this for the last two Presidential elections. His movies do not have to follow any protocol or measure for truth. He says it, you believe it, and you do not even run the numbers to find out if he is telling the truth or not. He says 47 million and you say, "Wow, that is horrible". I say, "Where did the numbers come from, what is real, and what is not"?
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
In the DVD extras he talks to two prof. at Harvard Law and Harvard Med. and they both say the same thing as him, but im sure that you and you're friends at fox new are much smarter than two professors at harvard right?
I bet you never had to deal with medical bills and insurance co pays that almost send you bankrupt, well my family has so fuck you you soulless tool. "it's not economically smart to do it" Cuz rich CEOs can't buy third and fourth homes with their bonus's for denying coverage
hads35 3 years ago
hads:"im sure that you and you're friends at fox new are much smarter than two professors at harvard right?"
I have no affiliation with "Fox", but being a professor at Harvard does not make you an expert on the real numbers of people uninsured. Moore counts 10 million illegals, 17 million who make a lot of money, and 14 million who are eligible for Government programs but do not enroll. Out of his claimed 47 million, that leaves an actual 6 million who are really poor and uninsured.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
(cont)If we just created a citizenship test for healthcare (Non-Americans pay up front, or get no care), we could GIVE the remaining 6 million free care and not have to change 1 other thing. Now, add proficiency testing Doctors, making a loser pays litigation system, and regulating the maximum costs of procedures, we could really fix the whole system very quickly. Someone has to have a viable plan, and no one does. HR 676 is not the answer, it is just a shift of the problems to a worse system.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
Well geez first of all about the illegals, they don't just let everyone walk through the door. Obviously they check ID's, now im sure some could get their hands on fake ID's but not all "10 million". I would also like to ask about the 17 million who make a lot of money? seriously that's the best you got? You must have forgotten how much health insurance costs. Yeah the 7000 annually is affordable to some, but that also rules out the possibility of a life threatening disease---
hads35 3 years ago
hads:"seriously that's the best you got?"
No. I have a lot more, but that is all you seem to be focused on. The problem here is that you socialists can not even be honest about the number of people who are really poor and without a health PLAN. If you could possibly stop making this, and everything else a crisis, maybe we could find some common ground and work toward a fix. With this fiscal bailout now in the works, there is even less money now than ever to pay for socialism.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
im not socialist, i just believe that everyone in this country (who is legal) deserves healthcare, how can you disagree with that? Lower class citizens can't afford healthcare but they provide valuable services. People ARE going to get sick, and when they do they need to be treated, it's that simple. They should not be thrown out because they can't afford insurance, or didn't qualify. Why can't healthcare be like the fire n police dept?
hads35 3 years ago
hads:"i just believe that everyone in this country (who is legal) deserves healthcare, how can you disagree with that?"
I do not disagree with that. I just do not think we need to give EVERYONE "free" care on the taxpayers backs.
If we did a citizenship test on care, and made illegals pay up front, we could give the entire 6 million people who are actually poor and without a plan free care and not change one other thing.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
Agreed
hads35 3 years ago
hads:"Agreed"
Don't you wish Congress could resolve things and agree on something?
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
It may sound radical but i believe if congress got paid half of what hey make now more would get done to help the middle and lower class. It's not that they don't care ( even though some don't) it's just difficult to imagine how hard life is for someone poorer than them when their making a good salary
hads35 3 years ago
hads:"it's just difficult to imagine how hard life is for someone poorer than them when their making a good salary"
Most do not even need the salary...so I do not think that is the issue. There is no accountability. I can not vote Hillary Clinton out of office because she is not in my state, but she makes laws that affect me.
If I could vote her out, I would, but I can't so she will remain. She has no obligation to help anyone not in her state. That is the problem for all of them.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
(cont)I use her as an example, but she is not the only one. They all keep their local constituency happy and then reign terror on the rest of us.
If we could make it so everyone has a say in who stays or goes, then we could pick the best, and fire the rest.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
(cont)I would fire Pelosi, Frank, Kennedy, Schumer, Clinton, Biden, Boxer, Feinstein, and maybe Charlie Rangel...but Charlie might get a reprieve.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
Comment removed
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
The households of the "illegals" that you want to exclude are also taxpaying households. And they cannot afford to "pay up front" because they can't affford it.
Yet many citizens pay no taxes at all, e.g., children and retired people.
By 2050, more than half the US population will be over 50.
Even many employed citizens cannot afford health care or medical insurance.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:" the "illegals"...cannot afford to "pay up front" because they can't affford it"
What part of "illegal" do you not understand? If they can not afford it, then they can go home. We are not responsible for ILLEGAL entrants to our country. By being here they are ILLEGAL. Broke the law to get here, and somehow WE are responsible to make sure they get health care? Are you NUTS?
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
--Car accident, etc. It gets very very expensive, and a middle class person cannot afford a $70,000 hospital bill (and that's not an uncommon amount). Yes there are a lot of uninsured people, but more than that it's those who are insured and are losing their homes(#1 reason for bankruptcy in 06-hospital bills) So we need Universal Healthcare because many are uninsured yes (even if it is your 6 million) but also because those who ARE insured have a big bullet to bite if by chance they get ill!
hads35 3 years ago
hads:"So we need Universal Healthcare because many are uninsured yes (even if it is your 6 million)"
6 milion is 2% of the population. We can fix what we have without going off the insanity deep end and opting for socialism.
First, be honest about the numbers. Second, deal in reality, not pie in the sky. Third, get people who really want to fix this instead of making promises they can't keep. Then maybe, we can fix the problems in the health care industry.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
No no no, the insurance industry is no good.
1. They don't cover many expensive precedures in order to save money (and dont deny that cuz it's been proven)
2. They don't cover you if you have a pre-existing condition which there are hundreds of.
3.There's no government regulation so the pharmaceutical companies can charge whatever they please causing many people to become debt ridden.
4. And our police and fire departments are socialized along with our libraries so what's so different?
hads35 3 years ago 2
hads:"our police and fire departments are socialized"
That is local, not Federal, and it is not socialized. It is cost shared. We can not afford to keep our own police and fire ready in the odd chance we may need them.
As for 1, 2, and 3...fix the problems, do not resort to socialism which will make it worse.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
yes it is cost shared, but it is a 'free' service/ technically it's paid for with our taxes so are a lot of things. It's called free healthcare but everyone knows that we pay for it with our taxes. And what about my other three points?? got nothing for them?
Many experts have said time and time again that Universal Healthcare is the answer. Noticed how I said EXPERTS, (Also MIT and Oxford have published books on how the US healthcare system is junk and universal healthcare is better)
hads35 3 years ago
hads:"but it is a 'free' service"
It is not free. It is insurance we pay for, like in healthcare. We pay people to mitigate fire damage and criminal activity, like we pay to insurance to mitigate health concerns.
Your other three points have been answered over and over...read back through the 700+ comments. These are fixable problems, so fix them. We have done and can do great things without socialism.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
The purpose of medical insurance is not to provide health care, but to mitigate
major medical expenses, esp., hospitalization.
This is true even if you have insurance that pays for preventative screenings
because the cost of annual screenings is still far less than the cost of annual insurance premiums.
An insurance company's primary mission is not to deliver quality health care to its subscribers, but to deliver big profits and dividends to its shareholders.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"The purpose of medical insurance is not to provide health care, but to mitigate major medical expenses"
Okay...so you have defined a problem, now we can define a fix for that problem. We can fix the problem through free markets and personal responsibility.
Look up "Sick in America" with John Stossil on YouTube. He explains how it is proven to work already.
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
What convenient definition of socialism!
It's socialism if the fed. govt. pays for it, but not socialism if the state or local govt. pays for it ? BS
Cost is shared whether it's shared at the local, state or federal level.
Furthermore, the fed. govt. subsidizes many services which are local to cities and/or states.
Everyone needs health care, so why shouldn't the fed. govt. provide it?
Labelling it "socialism" is not a explanation.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
rocc:"Everyone needs health care, so why shouldn't the fed. govt. provide it?"
Because they can not do it...or anything else right. And, not everyone NEEDS healthcare. Many people live their whole life never or rarely seeing a Doctor.
Everyone needs food...why aren't you asking the Government to provide that? Everyone needs clothing, why shouldn't they provide that? Everyone needs water, why not demand Fed Water?
WeedaPeople 2 years ago
Yes, It seems many comment on keeping this market based system. Everyone believes I guess the basic human need is profit before care. I remember when my mother had cancer she had to play games with the insurance company constantly denying when in fact she had coverage. So everyone that thinks they have a correct opinion why private insurance should remain are wrong. If you are sick the last thing on your mind is playing games with some schmuck looking to make profit off of you.
wobblebrain 3 years ago 3
wob:"So everyone that thinks they have a correct opinion why private insurance should remain are wrong."
That is one ignorant opinion.
Look at Lasik eye surgery. because it is in the competitive marketplace, it has become less expensive, safer, and better quality.
The market forces system can remain if it is used properly.
When was the last time you asked what a procedure cost at a Doctors office? If you do not ask, you are part of the problem.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
Lasik, lasik, lasik!!! Without it you'd have no arguement at all would you Weeda?
azajeni 3 years ago
aza:"Lasik...Without it you'd have no arguement at all would you Weeda?"
It is a PERFECT example of a medical procedure that the price has lowered, and quality and safety have increased, due 100% to free market competition. Why would I not bring it up?
I have plenty of other reasons not to want to go over to the dark side and accept socialism, but really, this makes the point so well, all you can do is get frustrated and send me a message like you did. Do you have anything else?
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
(cont)All we have to do is ask what things cost...but we don't. We could shop around for care and Doctors would compete for our business...liek everyone else does.
The problem here is they have a blank check. They can charge $300 for an aspirin because someone else is paying for it. Will this get better under Government control? The Government pays $600 for a toilet seat and $500 for a hammer, so I can not see that $300 for an aspirin would be seen as outrageous by them.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
(cont)You suggest we go from bad to worse. Not only not allow free markets to drive prices down, but have the worst fiscal managers in history running the show, and add levels of bureaucracy and paperwork to the equation.
The big problem here is that you come here and advocate all this for us, but you would not have to live with it. You are a foreigner and none of what we would have to deal with would apply to you. So I have to ask, why do you come here and tell us how we should live?
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
My dear friend Weeda!
I have no intentions on telling you how to live! I also do not 'come here and advocate 'all' this for you.
This is a subject that needs to be addressed, maybe your right and maybe by 'your' population. The point is I was on this thread long before you and was discussing the issue not insulting ppl and not making a game of it. If you guys could discuss the issue between yourselves you may be able to come up with some sort of feasible solution.
azajeni 3 years ago
Cont..You act as a child and how can anyone can converse with you without you spitting back insults is beyond me. If you paid a little attention of other's views and were not so stuck in your rut of believing 'Universal Healthcare and Socialism' go hand in hand you would have jumped the first step necessary for progress. Only then could you get any further. Maybe by listening to others you could enlighten yourself to the options of better healthcare for the generations to come.
azajeni 3 years ago
aza:"If you guys could discuss the issue between yourselves you may be able to come up with some sort of feasible solution."
We can and we will. So I expect I will not see you here anymore, since you acknowledge that it is none of your business, and you do not advocate this for us.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
Yes,
Please tell which countries that have universal healthcare or anyhthing similar are 'socialist countries'? Is the put plainly enough for you to understand?
azajeni 3 years ago
You poor buggar. Your a vietnam vet and on a pension yet you refer to 'socialism' as the 'dark side'... pity poor souls like you!
azajeni 3 years ago
aza:"You poor buggar. Your a vietnam vet and on a pension"
No, I am not a VietNam vet and I am not on a pension.
This is the problem...you have no idea what you are talking about. I am a Vet and I do have a VA disability, but I also work very hard for a regular paycheck. I do not sit on my ass and collect welfare.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
"NO. I AM NOT A VIETNAM VET AND AM NOT ON A PENSION"?
They were YOUR WORDS .... not mine. Your memory is as bad as your arguement.
azajeni 3 years ago
Actually, WeedaPeople you know people like you make me think "if a huge asteroid were going to collide with our planet that would wipe out all mankind - people like you would apply economics to trying to mount an effort to divert it" - You would think hmmm.. it will cost too much we can't do it.. we all just have to die.. It's cost effective that way.. death is more feasible.. Why save humanity right? I mean it makes more sense to have gold remain but no humans around.. makes sense right?
wobblebrain 3 years ago 4
you've never taken logic have you?
don't worry that was rhetorical.
lxfrnk80 3 years ago
What is Universal Health Care (UHC)?
The people who want to sell you on the concept of UHC think they first need to inflate numbers and tell you we have a crisis. They say 47 million people are poor and without care. The truth is: 10 million of them are illegals, 17 million are not poor (Make over $50K), and 14 million of them are elligible for Government assistance but do not enroll. So actually, 6 million people are really poor and without a health PLAN...not without care.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
(cont) So why do they lie to us and say that so many more are poor and without care? Because the 47 million figure would mean we have a crisis, and it needs to be resolved immediately. Whatever solution comes along, we need to adopt it to end the crisis situation. But the crisis is a lie.
This is how they want to sell you on socialism. Socialism is repugnant to Americans. We do not want our taxes taken and Governments to control us. It is totally UnAmerican. The only way to sell it is to lie.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
(cont)So they lie to us, and try to sell us socialism. Why? Because it keeps their people in power.
Socialists want to control you. The only way they can is to keep you needing them. If you need them to give you health care, then you have to keep electing the people who will "give" you the most. It their way to increase their power it is a dependency cycle we can ill afford.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
(cont)America is the land of the free, and the land of opportunity. It is not the land of the hand out or the land of dependency.
If you need to rely on your Government to take your hard earned money and give you back their version of health care, then you are not free. Your freedom is limited by the amount of care the Government will give you, and your freedom is limited by the confiscation of your money to pay for it.
Do not buy into socialism. We are not Europe and do not want to be.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
Us census bureau: Fact finder, age and sex: 2006 Total Population: 299,398,495. (Current 303 Million)
Age 40-44 7.6%
Age 45-49 7.6%
Age 50-54 6.8%
Age 55-59 6.0%
Age 60-64 4.5%
Total: 32.5% = 97,304,350 people
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
The Baby Boomers are ready to retire. The previous comment shows the U.S. Census figures for aging Americans. When they retire, they stop paying payroll income taxes. When they stop payign payroll income taxes, where will teh money come from to run Government, and pay for entitlements like Universal health care?
If we go to a socialist system, and it fails (The numbers already show us it will), then what? How do we go back to privatization, and how long would it take?
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
(cont) We have 303 million in total U.S. population right now. If we are going to lose 90+ million people from the rolls of the taxpayer, who will be there to support them? Who is going to pay for all the entitlements?
No one.
The bottm line is there are not enough people to pay for all the socialist nonsense that is being pushed by people who do not even live in this country. We can no longer afford to be distracted by outside influences who wish to derail the conversation.
WeedaPeople 3 years ago
Remember, the insurance companies only make money when they deny claims.
alaskanmetal 4 years ago