Greatest Political Debate in a Film

[gerardy345]

Look at the Heros then , now look at the republic now , cunts standing up and cheering the queen

[dublinripa]

"if we ratify this treaty,all we're changing is the accents of the powerful and the color of the flag" irelands "freedom" summed up in one sentence.genius.

[SaorEire]

This scene could just have easily been of 1998. The GFA and the Treaty are the same. Those who fought and died for Irish freedom were sold out in both cases.

[malachy1847]

@bckelleher47 I didn't take offence by you comments [revised offending paragraph] many Socialist /Communist Theorists in Britain and Europe of disscounted Connolly and those who took up arms against The Empire. Outhers more 'Syndicalist' in views thought Connolly was a Class traitor to the cause of World Revolution.. Historians here have for years have been a cozy Club! once your inside that tent they just sang off the same hymn sheets with a diet of Revisionism/ Two Nationism mad really

[malachy1847]

@bckelleher47 Don't want to get into a 'Wordfest' your qoute you posted..,'Communist elements of the IRA. of that time are just being sweeped under the Carpet in the history books'. i tried to broaden your perspective towards whats known as 'Irish Socialist Republicans', there were many divergent views as to why many young men took up arms all swore an 'Oath to defend THE REPUBLIC' this is why so many could't unswear same their own hearts that was solemn Contract that couldn't be broken

[malachy1847]

@bckelleher47 Serous study required there.. if you think that [Irish Republican]Socialism and Communism would be more or less synonymous.Fact We were NEVER a Democratic ,"NATION from day one" but we were granted Dominion status within the Empire as a conclusion of 'The Treaty' over time we diluted and negated the conditionsof this very same by DEvrepealing the External relations Act 1936 plus 1937 Excuctive Powers Act giving effect to declaring the right beak out ties with 'The Empire'

[malachy1847]

@bckelleher47 Read this Countries struggle for Political and economic independance before bashing the keys. the attempt reclaim rights to our own lands with the lobby for agarian reform of Michael Davett The Land League struggles.'The 1913Dublin Lockout' Leaders like Connolly and Larkinthe Revolutionary activities of The Irish Citizen Army V/S 'the Class' interests of John Redmonds Volunteers.I could go on .......

[malachy1847]

@bckelleher47 Has more in the long tradition of Irish Socialist than leaning to any Communist school of the day , taking a view by creating a 32 County Irish Socialist Republic would truly free us as a people and in creating same this would serve the needs of f the many against the 'Class' needs of the few.It was always out there but revisionist historians 'Airbrushed' same off the history books..[ just 'Google' and read online, 'Labour in Irish History' by James Connolly.@Marxist.org...]

[hektola]

I always turn to the different links of the film in youtube looking for this scene (and the Courts one). I dont have to waste my time anymore. Thank you!!

[MrKeyboard69]

This is a great piece of info!

Great job with the film!

[malismad]

Cunningham and Murphy are fucking outstanding in this show.

[Ormond1]

The Alienation and abandonment of our brothers up in the top of this country.

Says it all really.

[TheFulhamboy]

i also love the argument in land and freedom, amazing

[monaghaned]

We still are not the 32 county Republic that all are past soldiers died for 'Tiocfaidh ar la' 'Our day will come'

[frolicwitme]

The treaty was the best option at the time, churchhill had threatned to send in thousands of soldiers i thy didn't sign it.

it was built upon and eventually we became a republic internationally recognised in 1949.

[Clyaton]

Those who pit the South vs. the North are being silly...  It should be individual states vs. union, because a lot has changed, don't know if anyone has noticed.

[ClaraLaraBombara]

here fuck sake calm down lads, we need ta stop going on about the treaty. that thing tore this country apart. i agree with both sides of it, i respect collins and dev. surely the men and women who gave their lives in the civil war wouldn't want us to keep fighting over it!! it should be learnt from and put behind us

[1916RememberTheBrave]

we need to colonize the North like the british have been doing over the years. soooooo many people keep arriving even today over from britain.. that is why the majority is still unionist. there are loads of english people there. all we need to do is get many southerners to go and settle down in the North. then we will be feckin sorted!! a drastic step i admit. but do-able!

[otleybey]

The Brits aren't 'colonizing' the North! I'm British but I support Irish republicanism, and it's not like there is some sort of policy moving English people to Ulster to bolster the unionist community. Just leave it to birth rates, the Catholics are having more children than the Protestants. Eventually Northern Ireland will become part of the Republic.

[frolicwitme]

There not colonising it because they already have!!!!

[DanotheSnitch]

Seriously lads you need to get a grip, if the treaty was not accepted then the Irish War of Independence would now be known as the Irish Rising of 1919-21, another in the long line of failed uprising and we would still be in the union. The fact of the matter is that now and then the majority of the people in Northern Ireland want to remain in the union end of story unless your in favour of forcing them? As far as socialism goes there would be no gap between rich and poor as we would all be poor

[duffers]

Apt that much like this scene, nationalist "patriots" can only focus their wee minds on unification. Beyond that, complex matters like class war are not really worth the time eh?

When will people learn?

[dubbigot]

what are you talking about.you are about as informed as a sleeping zoo animal

[TabooWolf]

It really gets you thinking...the above debate still haunts us now :P Bertie Ahern is looking towards a United Ireland, and that Conservative Cunt David Cameron is looking to unify the North with Britain

For the record I got nothing against our Brit neighbours, but I'm a fuckin patriot, and if, per chance, a unification with Britain would plunge the North into a Second Troubles...I know whose side I'd be fuckin fighting on

Tiochfaidh ár Lá

[ManoftheBeret]

This is an amazing fucking scene.

[96cambridge]

Iontach. Is clip den chéad scoth é. Cá bhfuil muid anois agus ca bhfuil muid ag dul?

[bodyke4life]

fuck da pro treaty wankers,sold our brothers in the north out and used guns given by britan to defend it . anti treaty all the way.

[dubbigot]

we should not have stopped.we had nothing to lose ,that BASTARD DEVALERA set up all the repuplicans to fight under the illusion of victory,but he was happy with a free state and he got it.he killed his friends and our future

[fatherted101]

Michael Collins was good until the treaty.

Eamon De Valera is our man

[duffers]

We have no man; we were sold out by both. The lesser evil, as history paints Dev, forged the Free State, is an embarrassment for all republicans that died for it.

The Democratic Programme is the height of Irish republicanism success, and it was shat on. The legacy of an 800 year war of oppression is a fragmented Ireland, colluding with various states, including England and America, with capitalism oppressing the proletariat. With the ruling English scum gone, Irish scum have taken their place.

[Jack63815]

dude well fucking said. good to hear there are still Irish socialists out there.

[bodyke4life]

wel said

[Jenndxx]

Are you handicapped?

DeValera set Collins up knowing what the answer would be. Our men are men like Tom Barry, who fought, really fuckin fought for us.

And may I say if they could get their hands on the ponces ruining our country you can bet the'd be shot for it.

[fatherted101]

First of all, Dev did not fucking set collins up. Shite! Second of all, Tom Barry was anti-treaty you spoon! Thirdly collins died fighting a civil war in which his side agreed to the treaty which partitioned Ireland. Fourth of all the worst of all he took up british arms and men in british uniforms to fight irish men.

Your all in love with the man in the movie, not collins himself.

"Michael collins" (film) most biased shite i ever watched

[delta720]

If we didn't accept the treaty we'd have been under the british flag during the second world war and we wuda been blown to shite. we'd prob have half a home full state at this stage, 32 county republic was all talk back then but completely unrealistic as it is now

[Bolger451]

I'll have to disagree there. Dev was not stupid. He met with lloyd george prior to the treaty debates (lloyd george, by the way, had no desire to hang onto the north, as shown by his suggestion of the boundary commission to reduce the north's size to make it financially unsusatinable),They knew that the north would descend into chaos if the country was unified. Secondly, had collins not signed the treaty, the conservatives would have got back in, and the treaty would have gone off the table

[bigobriener]

I admire your patriotism. But majority of these arguments on the web sound like they are based on the Micheal Collins Film, and not the documented history.. The way I see it is Dev didn't want to gamble that last stretch for independence, because of obvious consiquences. And Micheal had faith in the continue for the battle. It resulted in a proposition for our sepurate counties.

[swansandtyphus]

The War of Independence and the Civil War should really be seen as one war. A significant number of British troops and policemen in Ireland with the exception of the Black and Tans and extra troop reinforcements were actually Irish Catholics.

Many of these men later joined the Gardai and made up the officer corps of the Free State Army along with their old adversaries in the IRA who took the Treaty side.

A lot of civil servants in the Free State had held the same posts under British rule.

[swansandtyphus]

What people forget is that if Britain lost the Great War, they would have been in a similar position to Germany in the 1920's and 1930's. They might have been stripped of their empire at peace talks. Just as the stormtroopers that put down Communist uprisings in Germany were German veterans and later became the backbone of the Nazi party, the Black and Tans were also hardcore militarists who might have overthrown the British government if they had not been sent to Ireland to fight the Irish.

[FonziNied]

This is good - but the debate portrayed in "Michael Collins" is better

[tvbop]

Groggy - Dan says 'My Dad was a navvy' - or, an itinerant laborer.

[TomBarry192I]

'Immediate and terrible war' imagine the EU threatened that over the Lisbon treaty? They still uphold that border by that same threat against the Irish people's democratics wish to be Independent from British rule

[swansandtyphus]

The majority of people in Northern Ireland were unionist then and are unionist now. In a democracy majority rules. Forcing Northern Ireland to join the Republic would the same as Serbia invading Kosovo. We would end up at war with the loyalists and bombs on Dublin streets like in 1974.

Unification will only come after loyalists consent and they will not consent as long as the IRA continues to exist.

Face facts.

[TomBarry192I]

Then? It was all of Ireland then and vast majority voted for independence in 1918. What about democracy then? If u support partition, would u support re-partition?

[swansandtyphus]

It was quite clear in the 1918 election and it had been quite clear since the formation of the Irish Parliamentary Party in the 19th century that the majority of citizens in the North East of Ireland voted for unionists.

If the Great War had not intervened or Easter 1916 had not occurred events were gearing up for a full scale civil war between Northerners and Southerners.

The Northerners at the time were far better armed and had the support of the Conservatives in Britain too.

[TomBarry192I]

Just because north east Ireland has unionists doesnt mean it should be treated any different to any other part. Ireland is Ireland no matter what artificial lines are on the map. 4 of the 6 counties now have nationalist majority.

[Jack63815]

dude u'r excatly right. should never have come to that. and for all these fucking idiots in the sout who sympathise with the unionists let me say this. the flag the fly, the anthem u sing was made for 32 counties. if u think partion is acceptable u may as well shit on pearse, connelly and even collin's grave. collins always wanted the north. don't forget that.

[fatherted101]

Did he fuck he sold out the six counties of the north. Fucking traitor. Unless your naive or Ill be fair; in case you know no Irish history, it was the fault of Collins that partitioned the country!

[Jenndxx]

Fuck you buddy, Michael Collins was fuckin ste up to deliver pre-decided bad news, he didnt make the fuckin decision, he went as far as he could, it was a stepping stone to freedom. That man died for Ireland, the whole of Ireland.

[swansandtyphus]

The 1916 rebellion horrifed the nation but when the leaders were executed sympathy swung in their favour. When the British government tried to conscript Irishmen to fight Germany public opinion turned in favour of Sinn Fein and they won a majority in the 1918 election. When the IRA violence began most people were outraged but when the Black and Tans were sent to Ireland to terrorise the Irish people public opinion was in favour of war. But by 1922 most wanted peace and supported the Free State.

[fatherted101]

The brave and bold men of 1916 didn't gain the appreciation of the public because they were being sympathised with, generations of Irish men and women rose up, all went down with failure. Most of the Irish were anti-british and supported home rule. The immediate scorn aimed at the rising was because it seemed a disturbance. EG if men rose in the north now the proddys and the catholics would be thinking oh fuck off but say after this rising a war followed. Then people would show their colours.

[GroggyxxSumo]

When Dan's talking, what does he mean by "My dad was a naddie?"

[Xtra15]

someone who worked in england for low pay terrible housing and rags as clothes

[blockerstumpy]

i think this film was fantstic but it was more sympathetci to the republican side

[Jenndxx]

Thats because the republican side is the right side, being fucking Irish what other fucking side would i be fucking on?

[AUGHALOUGH]

I can't speak highly enough of this film and especially this scene.

But no English man can silence the regenerating ever lasting spirit of Irish freedom

[evavaillan]

Does anyone know of other political/historical debates like this in film? I love the amalgam of drama and information that this medium provides.

[evavaillan]

Thank you so much for posting this clip. No other movie, and especially no other scene, has presented such a clear picture of a very complex situation through the lives and views of the people involved. It's so valuable. I'm also in love with Damien O'Donovan.

[chancequest]

commies

[JDLK2005]

Social democrats

[Kuabla]

This really is top notch stuff. Apart from the artistic performance, from a director/writer point of view, it addresses the dilemma in 1921 from the most faithful of ways instead of dressing it up amongst others like a jealousy ridden love triangle like the Michael Collins film. I can't speak highly enough of this film and especially this scene.

[saintmichaelsarmoury]

Socialists.

[evavaillan]

...and proud of it

[saintmichaelsarmoury]

Sure the British are bastards to the irish but why is an authoritarian closer to home any better? In the words of the patriot (mel gibson), "Why would I trade one tyrant 3000 miles away for 3000 tyrants one mile away?"

[dancermusic123]

And what is wrong with that?

[mop2mop]

deadly

[cvos]

The Wind that Shakes the Barley - An extremely powerful account of a close knit group of Irish men and women who become involved in the struggle for independence. The film distances itself from usual revolution-related films by telling the tale from the perspective of common, household supporters. It attaches a grim tale to the word we've all grown to despise: insurgency. a debate amongst a formerly unified group of IRA members

[othersite]

Please be sure to read the Scene Info to best understand the debate.

Also, be sure to note the natural dialogue of the arguments (mistakes, pauses, improper word usage, etc.).