This may very well be a perfect example of artist misleading history. Openly carried swords being outlawed in the 1880s, and swordmanship after wwII. leaves a big gap to the 60s. The 60s was an explosion of advertisement and pop culture and the artist were right there doing their part. 'Kung fu fighting', Enter the Dragon,etc. were right around the corner. Artist stylize their work. If they don't know, make it up. If there be a bread trail to follow it might lead to an advertisement firm.
Agreed. There is definately something here worthy of investigation. If there is any merit to the stories of over zealous statesman purgeing japanese history of "dishonorable" situations, you may well have your job cut out for you. Keep up the good work.
@grackleone Thank you, again everyone has missed my major question! When did the straight/almost straight blade get attached to the ninja. I can get it to the 60's but thats it. Any ideas?
That type of evidence is of the worst kind. Artist are notorious for making technical errors when they record "history". Unless your are an artist with a interest/career doing military work, those kind of details may not be relevant to a non martial minded person. Those are not detailed portraits. Second rate talent, more than likely from memory some time after viewing the subjects. Look at war bond drive posters from WW2. Airplanes and tanks that loosely resembly actual equipment.
@grackleone you forgot to add teh accademics who found cut down swords and the historical quote. All three together make a better case for then against.
@grackleone but it is still apart of it, esspecially when teh same artist draws both straight and curved. Alone this is nothing but together it is something. Even small parts of an investigation matter. You do not ignore them because they are small. Thats would be bad practice? no?
@grackleone but it is still apart of it, esspecially when teh same artist draws both straight and curved. Alone this is nothing but together it is something. Even small parts of an investigation matter. You do not ignore them because they are small. Thats would be bad practice? no?
@grackleone@grackleone but it is still apart of it, esspecially when teh same artist draws both straight and curved. Alone this is nothing but together it is something. Even small parts of an investigation matter. You do not ignore them because they are small. Thats would be bad practice? no?
but it is still apart of it, esspecially when teh same artist draws both straight and curved. Alone this is nothing but together it is something. Even small parts of an investigation matter. You do not ignore them because they are small. Thats would be bad practice?
I cannot speak to the origin of the ninja sword but can speak to the theory of the ninjato having origins in the "Chinese" straight sword. The "jian" (Chinese straight sword) is of completely different design and works completely different, as is it has an extremely flexible blade. I suggest anyone thinking this should look at WuDang Sword training or fighting. Thanks
ninjas did use square guards widely, some tactics utilize it for smashing a samurai's head at short distance- anything to deceive a deadly living kitana
I read somewhere that the straight ninjato originated from the chinese straight sword, and were curved later because of its superior cutting power. Antony what do you think?
From what I remember, what Hatsumi-sensei said was that the straight-bladed, square-tsuba sword is a cheap weapon used by thugs and criminals and were not used by ninja who simply preferred a shorter blade katana.
Stephen Hayes simply popularized the straight-blade sword as did many movies in the 80's, but of course they were around before then - in old kabuki theater for example.
Do you mean whether the Japanese in Sengoku period used straight sword or not? Historically Japanese used straight sword for religeous purpose and used curved sword for fighting.
@poodle8noodle oh now I see it. Didn't think my question was so hard to understand. I'm not a historian though, I'm likely mixing up the periods of the weapons.
Bored! He showed Japanese warrior's picture in the story, But the warriors are not
real samurai, they are lowest class warriors included farmers. And Also they are not
ninja. In the era of 1600s, no body could see ninja casually. Ninja (onmitsu) was hidden espionage. Some time father ninja llived in enemy regeon, he married and got child, living still. And someday his son work as espionage. It called KUSA , it means grass, because naturally they appears.
@baron706 i think you missed the point. It is NOT a ninja sword, but the sword part and quotes have been found. Thats the point. The questions, where and when did it become ninja?
@baron706 he didn't say it is a ninja or even samurai sword. Merely that there is evidence of a straight bladed, square guarded sword. Next time you may want to actually pay attention to videos before commenting.
Nothing in historical accounts or illustrations is ever 100%. Is there archaeological support, that's the question. You'll notice that in those square-tsuba illustrations (which do NOT exist in all versions of those images), the swords are drawn very simplistically. Shortcuts are made with the tsukamaki, so why not with the tsuba as well? More importantly, even if square tsuba did exist, that still doesn't mean there was anything particularly "ninja" about them.
...which of course you pointed out. But you are saying it is "probable", and "not (quite) 100%" that the ninja used those swords, but there is really no basis for saying that. And what is marketed as the "ninja-sword" is a relatively short, straight sword with a square tsuba, which was not see in those illustrations. What we saw were daisho, chokuto and katana with mu-sori, which again is a popular artistic shortcut, as it is easier to draw a straight sword than a curved one.
@Gilmaris so why are they both straight and curved in the same drawing and on many drawings? Also, it is found in history but its not ninja. The straight or cut straight sword is there, the point is, why is it connected to the ninja sword? Thats my question.
@TSOAS2008 They're illustrations, not photographs. Just like European illustrations, they should be taken with a grain of salt. In different versions of the same images we se differences in detail, which suggest that these details are hardly important to the artist, but the scene itself. The exact make of the swords are unimportant to the scene, the event at which the illustrator wasn't even present. That straight swords existed is indeed fact, and square tsuba, too, I shouldn't wonder. (Cont.)
(...cont.) However, the "ninja-to" is a very specific design, more than simply a straight sword with a square tsuba. Except for a few wakizashi in the illustrations you have presented, the swords seem too long to be a "ninja-to", as defined by popular culture. And, of course, as you and I both agree, there was no such thing as a "ninja-to", as the ninja would use any sword they liked. I don't think you'd find "Ninja-wear tm" on the washing label of their clothes, either.
Hello , My name is Jesse Kudel. Denouced from my first video due to the fact it was very biased and offencive. Trying to recollect and do it right the second time, I made a video explaining straight bladed weapons ALWAYS existed, but known as the "Chokuto", imported from China/Korea.
@TSOAS2008 Now you see the quailty of the is horrible, and this was back during the the days when it was only between Dean and Greg, so some of the information is off due to I didn't have as much information.
The Miao Dao was used in the late Qing Dynasty - Republican Era(1800's - early 1900's). It was made of steel not iron and was curved. it is commonly believed to be evolved from the Shuang Shou Dao used by troops of General Qi Jiguang against Wokou (Japanese Pirates) on the southeast coast of China. One theory is that he developed the sword after seeing the effectiveness of the Odachi against his own troops. another is that he based it on earlier Chinese long swords.
I appreciate the info but you should aim it towards Ant. I was merely suggesting what I knew as a source for his investigation. I did a little more and found other types of similar swords, though usually spelled 'MaoDao', from earlier periods. I certainly don't claim to have any extent of knowledge on the sword, western swords are my bag.
Yeah the term Miao Dao is often used for any Chinese long sabers which is technically incorrect. and there are older long swords/sabers but they are properly referred to as Chang Dao, (long Sword) Shuang Shou Dao, (two handed sword), Zhan Ma Dao (horse cutting sword) or other more specific names depending on design and age
I just thought I'd take the chance to help you learn a little about Chinese swords. as for directing it towards Ant, I don't think it really has any bearing on his research. It is a known fact that straight swords were used in japan. The earliest swords swords were straight double edged "Ken" (Chinese "Jian") in the kofun period "Chokuto" single edged straight swords were popular.
During the Nara period the Japanese began to Adopt the straight single edged swords used by Tang Dynasty Chinese. it was from these swords that the classic Japanese curved sword was developed in the 10th century. The reason this has no bearing on his work is that he is trying to determine weather or not swords matching the stereotypical "Ninjato" were used in the period the historical ninja were operating.
I was answering a post about the Miao Dao being a straight sword possibly adopted by the Japanese and developed into the Tachi. My reply was that the Miao Dao was a curved sword used from the early-mid 1800's to the communist take over in 1949. The rest was about the Chang/ShuangShou dao of Qi Jiguang (the sword he probably referring to) being based on the Odachi (not the other way around)and used based on Kage Ryu methods from a manual seized from a captured Japanese Pirate.
the reason it has nothing to do with you're research is that the Miao Dao, Chang Dao, ShuangShou Dao, ZhanMa Dao, etc are all clearly curved swords. As for posting basically the same thing four times, Every time I tried to post what I had written I had a bunch of trouble and it wouldn't show up. I went to youtube help section and there were a bunch of posts from people having the same problems. It appears there was a glitch/bug and they all got posted later. sorry about that.
It is said that he obtained a Kage Ryu manual from one of the captured pirates and based the forms he used to train his troops in part on the techniques he learned from it. Drawings included in his book, the Ji Xiao Xin Shu show the training forms he used for the long sword
The chinese use a sword called a Miao Dao which is a long straight bladed sword. It is highly likely that this sword (as many things in Japanese culture) came to Japan from China. The Miao Dao is most closely comparable to the Tachi sword (Thanks to Mike Loades for my new Japanese sword knowledge!). As far as I understand the curve of the Japanese swords is a result of the cooling same cooling process that gives it the flexible spine and hardened edge so It
could be that the Miao Dao is an iron age sword where hardening of a blade was not possible as you cannot harden iron. Perhaps the Japanese version of the Miao Dao became the Tachi with the discovery of steel and therefore the hardening process.
Miao Dao were used in the late Qing-Republican era (late 1800's-early1900's) and they are curved not straight.
They are believed by some to have evolved from the shuang shou Dao used by General Qi Jiguang in his fight against Japanese Wokou. some believe that he modeled the sword after the Odachi after seeing it's effectiveness against his own troops. others say he based it on earlier Chinese long swords.
Miao Dao were used in the late Qing-Republican era (late 1800's-early1900's) and they are curved not straight.
They are believed by some to have evolved from the shuang shou Dao used by General Qi Jiguang in his fight against Japanese Wokou. some believe that he modeled the sword after the Odachi after seeing it's effectiveness against his own troops. others say he based it on earlier Chinese long swords.
The Miao Dao was in use during the late Qing Dynasty and Republican Eras(1800's-early1900's). It is a long curved sword made of steel. It is believed by some to have evolved from the Shuang Shou Dao used by troops of General Qi Jiguang during their campaigns against Japanese Wokou Pirates on the southeast coast of China. Some say he based his sword on the Odachi after seeing it's effectiveness against his own troops. others say that he modeled it after Earlier Chinese long swords.
@ninjaplease10 who cares?? Did you take the 11 minutes out of your life to watch the vid? Are you intelligent enough to comprehend the information he is giving? What does the title matter??? I've had many history professors use intentionally inflammatory statements to get the class interested in the subject...this is no different
@sonicredcr This video is viewed Worldwide.If Antony wants to talk about misleading info then gives out misleading info himself for the benefit of more views that's up to him. It's his reputation.
@buffonsarutobi well my guess would be in order to continue his research and pay for translations he has to make money from his books so I see nothing wrong with this
Ummm... How did this become images from a 1600s document all of a sudden? The dates you have provided so far for the document range from the mid 18th century to 1847....BTW is the document this....
//k-aiser.kok ugakuin.a c.jp /libr ary/lime/zohyo01 /pages/ page005. h t m l
@TSOAS2008 So with that in mind, you haven't actually 'quoted' the 1600's documents? So therefore can't maintain that '1600s documents were not good enough' in relation to the above topic, when they haven't been shared.. neh?
@toth2173 the first two drawings he shows are comic book drawings showing ninja with swords with square tsuba, does everyone post without thoroughly watching the video???
No offence, but I feel this video besmirch your reputation as an educated historian. You should have completed investigation against primary sources before you made the video like this.
Can I gave you context, If i said I had a document for example, and yes i know its all slightly silly but bear with me, showing pictures of the english archers at agincourt drawn not with long bows but for example a 3 ft recurve bow, and i stated that it was proof that this bow existed and was in use at agincourt, would you accept that one drawing , or would you argue it goes against most accepted evidence and that although interested most likely artists style , but certainly not proof
Could I request, that when you put the quote in the book a copy of the original document is included, as you are fully aware , the japanese language is full of nuances escpecially when you are translating old japanese yes , and the difference between 'straight' or 'straighter' would be highly pivotal within the context of the argument.
Also take note that second ninja comic book image you show in the video features the ninja carrying his shuriken on a wooden spool exactly how Dean demonstrated in one of his vids!
@TSOAS2008 Well Dean didn't claim it to be Togakure, I don't think. I meant to the west I think it is a more obscure method of carrying shuriken so maybe who ever drew that was a little more in the know then some of us may think?
I like Stephen Hayes. I've never taken any martial arts, but I grew up reading his books and Ninja magazines in the 80s. I would always skip over the hand to hand stuff and read the stealth and mikkyo things because I thought it was far more interesting. But I lost all interest in this kind of stuff when I became a teenager and discovered girls, but I stumbled upon your vids and became ninja obsessed for the first time since like 1990. Thanks for all the great info and books.
@TSOAS2008 Yeah, first time I've heard of this kiri tree ash technique. I'd love to know how well that would work. A little off topic but I don't know of anywhere better to mention it, I've got a sort of strange question: I've read that in training ninja would learn to leap over fast growing hemp plants and they used marijuana leaves in poison, I've also read that marijuana was used in ancient Shinto rituals, I'm curious if there are any other links to ninjutsu and marijuana?
@sonicredcr i have never heard the smoking of hash by ninjas! hahah. Ace! I think the jumping over plants came in with the book way of the peaceful warrior. The Kiri ash is a simple question. At night a human outline can be seen. so the cloud of black fine ash, hangs in the air and hides the human form as the ninja moves.
@TSOAS2008@TSOAS2008 this is some info on japanese marijuana use:japanhemp((dot)org/en/thc.htm. The jumping over the hemp I have read in more than one place, Possibly Donn Draeger's book and maybe Fujita Seiko the last koga ninja? Not home now so I can't check, but I know for sure it tells of the hemp jumping and Aho-gusuri(dried marijuana leaf powder poison) on the iphone app Ninja Book, which is pretty historically accurate info from ninja manuals. Check it out
@sonicredcr i will mate, they are sending me a copy of that soon, i am reviewing it. Sounds good. i never knew they had weed in japan. thats a new one for me. top stuff.
@TSOAS2008 also if you read that site the hypothesis of how weed reached japan follows the way some have suggested kuji got to japan, i suppose that is how buddhism got there but I don't think it's too far of a stretch to imagine kuji practices and marijuana being linked.
Geez, I didn't think the title was that misleading, as long as you watched and listened to the video. You guys all need to calm down a bit.
I always thought the statement about Hayes inventing the ninja-to seemed bogus because I've seen plenty of Japanese films and comics with them and I highly doubt Hayes is that influential in Japan. So the idea of a straight bladed, square tsuba sword had to come from somewhere. Could be that it was slightly obscure and that's how it became related to ninja
@sonicredcr i would like to say thank you. It seems everyone here does not want to admit to anything. Image if they had a togakure document from 1846, wow and i said, sorry i do not take it. They would go nuts!!! hahah. but yep, its true. the video is clear, we know straight swords existed. people can leave Hayes alone.
@TSOAS2008 No, that is not what is being said. If i said I had a densho from Togakure ryu from 1846, before you would accept that as evidence , you would want to know its age, author context and provenance would you not before you would accept it as proof of existance yes? AGain you are making the jump from the fact that a lot of the swords are drawn straight in this edition compared to others , to 'we know straight swords existed' that does not necessarily follow , it may support,does not prove
@sonicredcr. Yes you are right, Now I know that a lot of you are clever but if everone just calmed down and watched / lisened to the video it might help.
@buffonsarutobi - are the examples of chokuto 'daisho' or are they ceremonial blades or shikomi zue. The shikomi zue blades are quite common and come up on the japanese auction sites. Reproductions are common in asakusa market shops also.
Making the statement - there are drawings in a document i have seen that has what appears to be a square tsuba and looks to be straighter than normally depicted - would be correct, however ''a sword with a straight blade and square tsuba existed in the edo period' does not directly follow , unless an example had been found with reliable provenance, do you see the point?
@BuffonSarutobi no you are wrong and way of course. most of the others in the document have "normal" katana. so your theory is redundent. It means SOME ashigaru carried these swords. at leat in the 1800's. Nothing else can be taken. You are jumping ahead and trying to find negitive point. This is not a serch for truth now. You have an agenda.
@BuffonSarutobi im not talking about a war, i am talking about their equipment. did they just have thousands of swords made over night or did they have equpiment. Do not try the smoke screen here please. Just throwing Japanese words in does not work on me i am afraid, i like proof. i gave it.
@BuffonSarutobi Yes I agree that the Ashigaru would have mass produced blades . The point i'm making is that it is possible to pick up a 'straight' blade japanese sword on yahoo Japan but these represent shikomi zue blades made for that purpose in the meiji era. The point I am saying is that it will not be enough just to produce a japanese straight blade , but the provenance would have to support it not being shikomi or ceremonial , to support the point of its existence in this context
I think the point is that if this sword is only for footsoldiers, or more likely peasents, it should have apeared only before the unification of Japan, and certainly before the Tokugawa period. Because after assuming power, Toyotomi Hideyoshi instated a law in about 1590 that prevented peasents from owning and using weapons, law that remained unitll the Meiji periode. So after this date it would have been futile to invent a sword for the peasent soldiers.
There is a picture of it on page 72 of kacems book, however its not clear. However it was offered for sale a few years ago to myself and there were photos from there, i have even seen them on the net.
@stevegreenfield can you get me a photo of the words Togakure Ryu and in conection to ninjutsu if possible. why have the Bujinkan not jumped all over that? seems strange.
The title of the document is koshu ryu jingai jutsu togakure ryu kaneru and was written in 1824 from memory. And you know what koshu ryu is? But i am not saying it evidence for togakure ryu ninjutsu, i am saying just because it is on a document doesnt mean it is 'the truth'
@BuffonSarutobi no my issue is this: A sword that has a straight blade with a square guard DID exist in the Edo period. BUT it has NO connection ninjutsu. None.
@BuffonSarutobi yep thats what i am saying. But you seem to think they did not exist and now you have changed your mind. Seems strange you keep chaning your mind. I said that they DO exist and now you say they do but before you argued. Make your mind up please.
@BuffonSarutobi your the only person who has this problem and your the only none english speaker, everyone else gets the context and the meaning. Its just you. Maybe its down to english being your second language? Everyone hears me say that this style of blade is found, we call it the ninja sword but it is not, it is just a sword. why is it only you who has a problem with this. Shall i name it "edo period straight blade found in edo period art" how many views then? notice the new " " marks!
Hi, is there any chance of a better, more detailed scan of these pictures. You state that both types of swords are presented in the images but the only differences noted are slight in the tsuba shape and length of sword as opposed to curvature of the blades. A reference for the documents and the actual quote would be nice... as you have repeated about '100% proven', 'fact' I find that a little academically irresponsible based upon a single source.
@diargo2001 nope, i have a quote as well but i am sorry that is for my research at the moment. The image is there, its clear and it is square, the tsuba exists and buffon is finding examples now. You will have to counter argument it i am afraid. its there in 4 or 5 images. sorry but it appears. if you do not believe the image then thats fine aswell. but its as clear as day 4 times.
But that is the point surely the straight sword is the issue not necessarily the square tsuba?All you have in the above images are the square tsuba and variation demonstrated by the artist with a round tsuba.In the images you have provided above there is no variance of the curvature of the swords this indicates that nearly all the swords were either straight swords or it is the artistic style for that document, does it not?As others have commented,the square shape could also be moku
So half providing information and running your mouth off with claims is essentially what you are admitting to? This will be the case until you can provide the document(s)so context,authenticity, reliability can be established. You have made the claims the burden of proof is firmly upon your shoulders, if you hadn't 'researched' it fully, then perhaps you should hold back before posting videos with misleading titles on the internet...
@tsoas2008 what i am asking is for you to apply the same requirements of proof you ask of others claims, quite rightly, to yourself. If someone said ' i have a quote saying togakure ryu exists in 1600' you would as for proof of that with reference, just as seeing the name togakure ryu on a non takamatsuden densho is not proof in itself, a drawing of a sword drawn straighter than normal is not proof of the existence of actual straight blades used by ashigaru
@stevegreenfield do you not think i am doing that. This straight sword goes against my thoughts! its negative for me! but like i always say its a truth. Ok, if togakure can show their name on a document and a conection to hatsumi i would say true. I have found an image and a quote for a straight sword. Same proof, same theroy, same rules. still do not get your problem. A picture and a quote, if Bujinkan had that it would be end of the talks. But when i have it its not good enough?
@TSOAS2008 actually regards the togakure , no it is not enough , and that comes from someone from within the Takamatsuden. I am saying that if you are putting forward a theory, i.e. that this picture represents a straight bladed square tsuba sword that is in use by the ashigaru, then I am saying that requires more that one photo that is all. Great , if such a sword is found it backs up your evidence, however , because it would be such an anomaly it would be presented in most major sword txts.
@stevegreenfield i think you willfind if Togakure ninjutsu was mentioned in a 1600's scroll and it could be linked to hatsumi, i am afraid to say taht would be enough to make it quite a realistic school. So how do you explain teh quote i have from teh 1600's saying today the samurai prefer straight (not straighter) swords.
@TSOAS2008what I am saying is you require context. so sticking with the 1600s quote, what you would need for that to be considered is would be what is the name of the document, the date, its author and provenance and the context of the statement within the text. just as you would ask if i said i had a togakure ryu densho from the 1600s , would you not ask the same questions before you would except the historical veracity of the text an the consequences of it?
@tsoas2008 well unless you reference the quote you have a picture. So , if we take the example of the koshu ryu togakure ryu gunbai document, that is shown in kacems book, according to the logic you are applying to your picture that wpuld seem to suggest ' its fact ,it exists' , would hou accept that, because i wouldnt just accept that as evidence alone
@stevegreenfield please tell me the page number in Kacems book where it shows the Kanji for Togakure on a none Takamatsu doeucment? As far as i remeber there is one picture that is unreadable. And you are 100% correct, and i will put the quote in Shinobi Soldiers III. For now i have to keep it back as i am not finished working on it. So for now, teh image is there and the quote is comming. next step. find a sword!
Yes i have seen japanese swords in museums both in uk and Japan.
Are you suggesting that in order to disprove your assertion that a straight bladed sword was in use by the ashigaru , I have to check every japanesesword in existance and prove its not straight, surely before anything is 'fact', you have to prove the existance of an actual blade rather than just drawing. Re: the quote, as an accademic , you should reference that with context or it has little meaning.
so there are multiple editions of this book ? do all editions show a similar blade? If not is it not artistic interpretation? When you state the 'straight sword with square tsuba' exists in the historical record and infer from that that this represents a real blade and not a specific artists interpretation, then the burden of proof lies with you when all other evidence , such as the hundreds of thousands of existing blades do not support this.
@BuffonSarutobi I agree, the context of this needs to be looked at , as it would be highly unusual for such swords to be issues and goes counter to all the existing blades apart form the shikomi zue of meiji era yes? Square tsuba , not too surprised by that , but againacould just be artistic interpretation of a moku tsuba could it not. The likelyhood of such blades existing and no mention in the record or existing versions is small, which leads me to think this is artistic not 'realistic'
@stevegreenfield incorrect. He shows too versions. He shows both curved and straight and both square and round. This is proof. If he made it up, then he made it up. but the idea of this sword predates the bujinkan, it predates hayes and no one can get away from that. In a real accademic debate, this would be allowed as proof. This would mean it was more probable then not. You guys are just trying to avoid the point here. Yes it would be good to find one. But still the drawing exists.
@TSOAS2008 Proof of what? That a drawing exists , that the blade exists?What you are saying then is that a serries of drawing from one individual artist , that goes counter to all other evidence both in terms of other editiions of the same document, or in fact existing blades , commentary on blades or other sources of drawings of blades in itself is proof, and you think that would hold weight academically , that is what you are stating , i just want to be absolutely clear on that point.
@stevegreenfield it is not counter to history at all, you just made that up. Have you checked any museums. The next step is to start asking museums if they have any of these blades. and if you must know, we even have a quote that says straight blades are prefered in these days (1600's) so, yes i do say its real. But if you do not like it. go find every sword in teh world and prove it wrong. Yours is opinion. mine is fact. this is a truth. now can we move on to something positive, like finding 1?
@TSOAS2008 Ok, if it is me that is going counter to accepted history , could you reference us some refernce books on the japanese sword , that show such blades , i.e. non chokuto, non meiji shikomi zue blades, that were straight (other than ceremonial blades) in such mounts as shown. I would be very interested as I collect antique japanese swords, and have never seen any in the large number of txts i have read on the subject, so please show some as it would be very interesting.
@stevegreenfield it is not counter to history at all. I have a quote and i have a picture. If you have not found one then maybe we should look. Listen my info is there. my next step is to try and find one in history. Sorry but i have books to write. All this info will come out in the future. For now i have given you the image. Do as you will with it. But if it is counter to history i have one question for you. How does it appear in a drawing and a quote!? you will never remove those two factors
@stevegreenfield. Hi, I know that you say that you have never seen one, but I was wondering if you have ever seen any drawings or anything that was written about these swords?
@stevegreenfield ok, i can no longer find your posts, but yes. for the 900th time, yes. yes yes. I have said many times now. We have an image, we have a quote, we need a sword. However, in history an image and a quote is more than enough. i will not be answering anyone as you have said the same thing 12 times. When you have something more to add i will answer. Buffon has just said he knows of stright edo period examples! i have an image and a quote, what more would you like? Blood?
@BuffonSarutobi yes we know, the publisher thinks its the 1847 edition. But they do not know. The book its in says the info is from either the 1744 or the 1847 edition. we just do not know which one. But the point stands. its in the edo period. no getting away from that. Unless its found to not be edo. but the author says he used these two.
@BuffonSarutobi maybe she means the 1846 version and no the author does not claim it as ninja to? why would he? and why do you keep asking if it is a ninja to? watch the video again i say it is NOT a ninja sword. Why do you keep asking about this. This is not to be considered a weapon in the late edo period. NOT a ninja sword. It could have been used by ANYONE. Please understand this.
@BuffonSarutobi what do you mean why it is truth? It appears in the historical record. FACT. No one can get away from this, it is dran a number of times in teh same document. Buffon, this is very very simple. It appears in a document, more than once. It is there. Fact. It is not a difficult concept at all. It is not a ninja sword, it is found before stephen hayes. it is a very simple argument.
@TSOAS2008 The facts are you have presented a document, without its full context ,that has a sword drawn straighter than it is usually presented, once or many times it does not matter. If the document states or comments that this is a straight sword then that is an interesting thing indeed and would be of historical significance. Can we agree those are the facts?. Until a straight blade, from a pre meiji period is found this is only a drawing, interesting yes, fact of straight blades,not yet
@TSOAS2008 Are you therefore saying that if one is able to present historical documents, with drawings in them, or text then it is a 'FACT' as such, or just a fact that it appears in that document. Or are you stating because a drawing or text exists in a print, makimono or densho , it would naturally follow its existance is also fact , because this is a very improtant point
This may very well be a perfect example of artist misleading history. Openly carried swords being outlawed in the 1880s, and swordmanship after wwII. leaves a big gap to the 60s. The 60s was an explosion of advertisement and pop culture and the artist were right there doing their part. 'Kung fu fighting', Enter the Dragon,etc. were right around the corner. Artist stylize their work. If they don't know, make it up. If there be a bread trail to follow it might lead to an advertisement firm.
grackleone 3 weeks ago 2
Agreed. There is definately something here worthy of investigation. If there is any merit to the stories of over zealous statesman purgeing japanese history of "dishonorable" situations, you may well have your job cut out for you. Keep up the good work.
grackleone 3 weeks ago
@grackleone Thank you, again everyone has missed my major question! When did the straight/almost straight blade get attached to the ninja. I can get it to the 60's but thats it. Any ideas?
TSOAS2008 3 weeks ago
That type of evidence is of the worst kind. Artist are notorious for making technical errors when they record "history". Unless your are an artist with a interest/career doing military work, those kind of details may not be relevant to a non martial minded person. Those are not detailed portraits. Second rate talent, more than likely from memory some time after viewing the subjects. Look at war bond drive posters from WW2. Airplanes and tanks that loosely resembly actual equipment.
grackleone 3 weeks ago
@grackleone you forgot to add teh accademics who found cut down swords and the historical quote. All three together make a better case for then against.
TSOAS2008 3 weeks ago
@TSOAS2008 Yes. the other evidence is more credible. The first two are cartoons. C'mon man. Cartoons, really? It's the weakest part of the case.
grackleone 3 weeks ago
@grackleone but it is still apart of it, esspecially when teh same artist draws both straight and curved. Alone this is nothing but together it is something. Even small parts of an investigation matter. You do not ignore them because they are small. Thats would be bad practice? no?
TSOAS2008 3 weeks ago
@grackleone but it is still apart of it, esspecially when teh same artist draws both straight and curved. Alone this is nothing but together it is something. Even small parts of an investigation matter. You do not ignore them because they are small. Thats would be bad practice? no?
TSOAS2008 3 weeks ago
@grackleone @grackleone but it is still apart of it, esspecially when teh same artist draws both straight and curved. Alone this is nothing but together it is something. Even small parts of an investigation matter. You do not ignore them because they are small. Thats would be bad practice? no?
TSOAS2008 3 weeks ago
but it is still apart of it, esspecially when teh same artist draws both straight and curved. Alone this is nothing but together it is something. Even small parts of an investigation matter. You do not ignore them because they are small. Thats would be bad practice?
TSOAS2008 3 weeks ago
The square tsuba is a fashion statement.
SkyDragonThe 3 weeks ago
I cannot speak to the origin of the ninja sword but can speak to the theory of the ninjato having origins in the "Chinese" straight sword. The "jian" (Chinese straight sword) is of completely different design and works completely different, as is it has an extremely flexible blade. I suggest anyone thinking this should look at WuDang Sword training or fighting. Thanks
BarryGCarpenter 4 weeks ago in playlist Uploaded videos
ninjas did use square guards widely, some tactics utilize it for smashing a samurai's head at short distance- anything to deceive a deadly living kitana
MaximKozin 1 month ago
@MaximKozin
Antony still needs to educate alot of idiots.
poodle8noodle 1 month ago
I know the ninjato had a hole in the saya but did it have a bamboo breathing tube?
tarquinogilvie 2 months ago
@tarquinogilvie The ninja sword is mentioned next to a bamboo tube. not as teh same thing
TSOAS2008 2 months ago
I read somewhere that the straight ninjato originated from the chinese straight sword, and were curved later because of its superior cutting power. Antony what do you think?
TheRogue144 2 months ago
@TheRogue144 there is no evidence for this, there is no doubt that the Japanese took tech from mainland asia, but too early for the ninja.
TSOAS2008 2 months ago
I think Don is lying because remember Stephen is Hatsumi's student.
ninjatarquin 4 months ago 4
From what I remember, what Hatsumi-sensei said was that the straight-bladed, square-tsuba sword is a cheap weapon used by thugs and criminals and were not used by ninja who simply preferred a shorter blade katana.
Stephen Hayes simply popularized the straight-blade sword as did many movies in the 80's, but of course they were around before then - in old kabuki theater for example.
mdiem 7 months ago 2
the Chinese and other orient cultures used straight and curved blades so why would it be so difficult to think they had some use in Japan as well?
robocoastie 7 months ago
@robocoastie
Do you mean whether the Japanese in Sengoku period used straight sword or not? Historically Japanese used straight sword for religeous purpose and used curved sword for fighting.
poodle8noodle 1 month ago
@poodle8noodle I don't remember actually :) post was so long ago not sure where it is in thread.
robocoastie 1 month ago
@poodle8noodle oh now I see it. Didn't think my question was so hard to understand. I'm not a historian though, I'm likely mixing up the periods of the weapons.
robocoastie 1 month ago
Bored! He showed Japanese warrior's picture in the story, But the warriors are not
real samurai, they are lowest class warriors included farmers. And Also they are not
ninja. In the era of 1600s, no body could see ninja casually. Ninja (onmitsu) was hidden espionage. Some time father ninja llived in enemy regeon, he married and got child, living still. And someday his son work as espionage. It called KUSA , it means grass, because naturally they appears.
baron706 9 months ago
@baron706 i think you missed the point. It is NOT a ninja sword, but the sword part and quotes have been found. Thats the point. The questions, where and when did it become ninja?
TSOAS2008 9 months ago
@baron706 he didn't say it is a ninja or even samurai sword. Merely that there is evidence of a straight bladed, square guarded sword. Next time you may want to actually pay attention to videos before commenting.
robocoastie 7 months ago
Nothing in historical accounts or illustrations is ever 100%. Is there archaeological support, that's the question. You'll notice that in those square-tsuba illustrations (which do NOT exist in all versions of those images), the swords are drawn very simplistically. Shortcuts are made with the tsukamaki, so why not with the tsuba as well? More importantly, even if square tsuba did exist, that still doesn't mean there was anything particularly "ninja" about them.
Gilmaris 9 months ago
...which of course you pointed out. But you are saying it is "probable", and "not (quite) 100%" that the ninja used those swords, but there is really no basis for saying that. And what is marketed as the "ninja-sword" is a relatively short, straight sword with a square tsuba, which was not see in those illustrations. What we saw were daisho, chokuto and katana with mu-sori, which again is a popular artistic shortcut, as it is easier to draw a straight sword than a curved one.
Gilmaris 9 months ago
@Gilmaris so why are they both straight and curved in the same drawing and on many drawings? Also, it is found in history but its not ninja. The straight or cut straight sword is there, the point is, why is it connected to the ninja sword? Thats my question.
TSOAS2008 9 months ago
@TSOAS2008 They're illustrations, not photographs. Just like European illustrations, they should be taken with a grain of salt. In different versions of the same images we se differences in detail, which suggest that these details are hardly important to the artist, but the scene itself. The exact make of the swords are unimportant to the scene, the event at which the illustrator wasn't even present. That straight swords existed is indeed fact, and square tsuba, too, I shouldn't wonder. (Cont.)
Gilmaris 9 months ago
(...cont.) However, the "ninja-to" is a very specific design, more than simply a straight sword with a square tsuba. Except for a few wakizashi in the illustrations you have presented, the swords seem too long to be a "ninja-to", as defined by popular culture. And, of course, as you and I both agree, there was no such thing as a "ninja-to", as the ninja would use any sword they liked. I don't think you'd find "Ninja-wear tm" on the washing label of their clothes, either.
Gilmaris 9 months ago
Hello , My name is Jesse Kudel. Denouced from my first video due to the fact it was very biased and offencive. Trying to recollect and do it right the second time, I made a video explaining straight bladed weapons ALWAYS existed, but known as the "Chokuto", imported from China/Korea.
HairofSteel555 1 year ago
@HairofSteel555 where is the video?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 Now you see the quailty of the is horrible, and this was back during the the days when it was only between Dean and Greg, so some of the information is off due to I didn't have as much information.
/watch?v=N4XEB00I95c
HairofSteel555 1 year ago
@strtmnky
The Miao Dao was used in the late Qing Dynasty - Republican Era(1800's - early 1900's). It was made of steel not iron and was curved. it is commonly believed to be evolved from the Shuang Shou Dao used by troops of General Qi Jiguang against Wokou (Japanese Pirates) on the southeast coast of China. One theory is that he developed the sword after seeing the effectiveness of the Odachi against his own troops. another is that he based it on earlier Chinese long swords.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 year ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti
I appreciate the info but you should aim it towards Ant. I was merely suggesting what I knew as a source for his investigation. I did a little more and found other types of similar swords, though usually spelled 'MaoDao', from earlier periods. I certainly don't claim to have any extent of knowledge on the sword, western swords are my bag.
Peace
strtmnky 1 year ago
@strtmnky
Yeah the term Miao Dao is often used for any Chinese long sabers which is technically incorrect. and there are older long swords/sabers but they are properly referred to as Chang Dao, (long Sword) Shuang Shou Dao, (two handed sword), Zhan Ma Dao (horse cutting sword) or other more specific names depending on design and age
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 year ago
I just thought I'd take the chance to help you learn a little about Chinese swords. as for directing it towards Ant, I don't think it really has any bearing on his research. It is a known fact that straight swords were used in japan. The earliest swords swords were straight double edged "Ken" (Chinese "Jian") in the kofun period "Chokuto" single edged straight swords were popular.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 year ago
During the Nara period the Japanese began to Adopt the straight single edged swords used by Tang Dynasty Chinese. it was from these swords that the classic Japanese curved sword was developed in the 10th century. The reason this has no bearing on his work is that he is trying to determine weather or not swords matching the stereotypical "Ninjato" were used in the period the historical ninja were operating.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 year ago
@TheaSinensisSerpenti not sure what you mean here, we are looking at the 1500's to the 1850's and then asking about the jump to the 1950's./
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
I was answering a post about the Miao Dao being a straight sword possibly adopted by the Japanese and developed into the Tachi. My reply was that the Miao Dao was a curved sword used from the early-mid 1800's to the communist take over in 1949. The rest was about the Chang/ShuangShou dao of Qi Jiguang (the sword he probably referring to) being based on the Odachi (not the other way around)and used based on Kage Ryu methods from a manual seized from a captured Japanese Pirate.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
the reason it has nothing to do with you're research is that the Miao Dao, Chang Dao, ShuangShou Dao, ZhanMa Dao, etc are all clearly curved swords. As for posting basically the same thing four times, Every time I tried to post what I had written I had a bunch of trouble and it wouldn't show up. I went to youtube help section and there were a bunch of posts from people having the same problems. It appears there was a glitch/bug and they all got posted later. sorry about that.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 year ago
It is said that he obtained a Kage Ryu manual from one of the captured pirates and based the forms he used to train his troops in part on the techniques he learned from it. Drawings included in his book, the Ji Xiao Xin Shu show the training forms he used for the long sword
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 year ago
i knew it!! lol thanks 4 proving it ninja.
ShinobiBell09 1 year ago 2
Hello once again Ant,
The chinese use a sword called a Miao Dao which is a long straight bladed sword. It is highly likely that this sword (as many things in Japanese culture) came to Japan from China. The Miao Dao is most closely comparable to the Tachi sword (Thanks to Mike Loades for my new Japanese sword knowledge!). As far as I understand the curve of the Japanese swords is a result of the cooling same cooling process that gives it the flexible spine and hardened edge so It
strtmnky 1 year ago 2
@strtmnky
could be that the Miao Dao is an iron age sword where hardening of a blade was not possible as you cannot harden iron. Perhaps the Japanese version of the Miao Dao became the Tachi with the discovery of steel and therefore the hardening process.
What say you?
strtmnky 1 year ago
@strtmnky
Miao Dao were used in the late Qing-Republican era (late 1800's-early1900's) and they are curved not straight.
They are believed by some to have evolved from the shuang shou Dao used by General Qi Jiguang in his fight against Japanese Wokou. some believe that he modeled the sword after the Odachi after seeing it's effectiveness against his own troops. others say he based it on earlier Chinese long swords.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 year ago
@strtmnky
Miao Dao were used in the late Qing-Republican era (late 1800's-early1900's) and they are curved not straight.
They are believed by some to have evolved from the shuang shou Dao used by General Qi Jiguang in his fight against Japanese Wokou. some believe that he modeled the sword after the Odachi after seeing it's effectiveness against his own troops. others say he based it on earlier Chinese long swords.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 year ago
@strtmnky
The Miao Dao was in use during the late Qing Dynasty and Republican Eras(1800's-early1900's). It is a long curved sword made of steel. It is believed by some to have evolved from the Shuang Shou Dao used by troops of General Qi Jiguang during their campaigns against Japanese Wokou Pirates on the southeast coast of China. Some say he based his sword on the Odachi after seeing it's effectiveness against his own troops. others say that he modeled it after Earlier Chinese long swords.
TheaSinensisSerpenti 1 year ago
I think the square tsuba was for gangsters or yakuza.
ManabeRokuro 1 year ago
@ManabeRokuro i have never heard of this? any more info?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi if you read my comments I wrote I've never taken any martialarts
sonicredcr 1 year ago
@ninjaplease10 who cares?? Did you take the 11 minutes out of your life to watch the vid? Are you intelligent enough to comprehend the information he is giving? What does the title matter??? I've had many history professors use intentionally inflammatory statements to get the class interested in the subject...this is no different
sonicredcr 1 year ago
@sonicredcr This video is viewed Worldwide.If Antony wants to talk about misleading info then gives out misleading info himself for the benefit of more views that's up to him. It's his reputation.
ninjaplease10 1 year ago
@sonicredcr
I care.
Are you tomo ryu member?
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@buffonsarutobi well my guess would be in order to continue his research and pay for translations he has to make money from his books so I see nothing wrong with this
sonicredcr 1 year ago
@sonicredcr But the title is misleading.
ninjaplease10 1 year ago 2
@sonicredcr
This video is immature research as a historian.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
Awesome video, Antony! Too bad all the kindergartens came out to make cause trouble!
kagemusha013 1 year ago 4
@kagemusha013 i know, my point was that its not stephen hayes and it appears in history, wow, i did not know 1600's documents were not good enough?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago 2
@TSOAS2008
Ummm... How did this become images from a 1600s document all of a sudden? The dates you have provided so far for the document range from the mid 18th century to 1847....BTW is the document this....
//k-aiser.kok ugakuin.a c.jp /libr ary/lime/zohyo01 /pages/ page005. h t m l
diargo2001 1 year ago
@diargo2001 the quote is 1600's the images are 1800's
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 So with that in mind, you haven't actually 'quoted' the 1600's documents? So therefore can't maintain that '1600s documents were not good enough' in relation to the above topic, when they haven't been shared.. neh?
diargo2001 1 year ago
Comment removed
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
>the images are 1800's
Do you know the wars in Japan 1800s were all after 1860.
Do you realize you are showing super ignorance like you showed when we discussed about Imjin war.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 These people are not intersted in history. They are only interested in pushing their ideas as the truth.
kagemusha013 1 year ago
@kagemusha013
This video is pushing an idea, isn't it?
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@toth2173 the first two drawings he shows are comic book drawings showing ninja with swords with square tsuba, does everyone post without thoroughly watching the video???
sonicredcr 1 year ago
Hi! Could you write the references for the pictures you show (author and date)?
Aithenatenno 1 year ago
No offence, but I feel this video besmirch your reputation as an educated historian. You should have completed investigation against primary sources before you made the video like this.
halto112 1 year ago 10
@halto112
やっぱ忍者研究家って日本に限らず考えが浅いっていうか、史料の精査が出来ない人多いね。
これがバカにされてる原因なのになんでわからないんだろう。
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
Can I gave you context, If i said I had a document for example, and yes i know its all slightly silly but bear with me, showing pictures of the english archers at agincourt drawn not with long bows but for example a 3 ft recurve bow, and i stated that it was proof that this bow existed and was in use at agincourt, would you accept that one drawing , or would you argue it goes against most accepted evidence and that although interested most likely artists style , but certainly not proof
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 2
@stevegreenfield and taking into account some other copies of that document by different artists showed a normal longbow.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
Could I request, that when you put the quote in the book a copy of the original document is included, as you are fully aware , the japanese language is full of nuances escpecially when you are translating old japanese yes , and the difference between 'straight' or 'straighter' would be highly pivotal within the context of the argument.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 2
Also take note that second ninja comic book image you show in the video features the ninja carrying his shuriken on a wooden spool exactly how Dean demonstrated in one of his vids!
sonicredcr 1 year ago
@sonicredcr yes, where did this come from, is this not Togakure? In fact i think the image may be togakure?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 Well Dean didn't claim it to be Togakure, I don't think. I meant to the west I think it is a more obscure method of carrying shuriken so maybe who ever drew that was a little more in the know then some of us may think?
sonicredcr 1 year ago 2
@sonicredcr sorry drew what?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 the comic book image
sonicredcr 1 year ago
Comment removed
Shininobi 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TSOAS2008
"yes, where did this come from, is this not Togakure? In fact i think the image may be togakure?"
It is from Seiko Fujita's Shurikenjutsu book.
Shininobi 9 months ago
Comment removed
toth2173 1 year ago
I like Stephen Hayes. I've never taken any martial arts, but I grew up reading his books and Ninja magazines in the 80s. I would always skip over the hand to hand stuff and read the stealth and mikkyo things because I thought it was far more interesting. But I lost all interest in this kind of stuff when I became a teenager and discovered girls, but I stumbled upon your vids and became ninja obsessed for the first time since like 1990. Thanks for all the great info and books.
sonicredcr 1 year ago
@sonicredcr your welcome mate. did you get the free dowloads from teh website?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 Yeah, first time I've heard of this kiri tree ash technique. I'd love to know how well that would work. A little off topic but I don't know of anywhere better to mention it, I've got a sort of strange question: I've read that in training ninja would learn to leap over fast growing hemp plants and they used marijuana leaves in poison, I've also read that marijuana was used in ancient Shinto rituals, I'm curious if there are any other links to ninjutsu and marijuana?
sonicredcr 1 year ago
@sonicredcr i have never heard the smoking of hash by ninjas! hahah. Ace! I think the jumping over plants came in with the book way of the peaceful warrior. The Kiri ash is a simple question. At night a human outline can be seen. so the cloud of black fine ash, hangs in the air and hides the human form as the ninja moves.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 @TSOAS2008 this is some info on japanese marijuana use:japanhemp((dot)org/en/thc.htm. The jumping over the hemp I have read in more than one place, Possibly Donn Draeger's book and maybe Fujita Seiko the last koga ninja? Not home now so I can't check, but I know for sure it tells of the hemp jumping and Aho-gusuri(dried marijuana leaf powder poison) on the iphone app Ninja Book, which is pretty historically accurate info from ninja manuals. Check it out
sonicredcr 1 year ago
@sonicredcr i will mate, they are sending me a copy of that soon, i am reviewing it. Sounds good. i never knew they had weed in japan. thats a new one for me. top stuff.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 also if you read that site the hypothesis of how weed reached japan follows the way some have suggested kuji got to japan, i suppose that is how buddhism got there but I don't think it's too far of a stretch to imagine kuji practices and marijuana being linked.
sonicredcr 1 year ago
Geez, I didn't think the title was that misleading, as long as you watched and listened to the video. You guys all need to calm down a bit.
I always thought the statement about Hayes inventing the ninja-to seemed bogus because I've seen plenty of Japanese films and comics with them and I highly doubt Hayes is that influential in Japan. So the idea of a straight bladed, square tsuba sword had to come from somewhere. Could be that it was slightly obscure and that's how it became related to ninja
sonicredcr 1 year ago
@sonicredcr i would like to say thank you. It seems everyone here does not want to admit to anything. Image if they had a togakure document from 1846, wow and i said, sorry i do not take it. They would go nuts!!! hahah. but yep, its true. the video is clear, we know straight swords existed. people can leave Hayes alone.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 No, that is not what is being said. If i said I had a densho from Togakure ryu from 1846, before you would accept that as evidence , you would want to know its age, author context and provenance would you not before you would accept it as proof of existance yes? AGain you are making the jump from the fact that a lot of the swords are drawn straight in this edition compared to others , to 'we know straight swords existed' that does not necessarily follow , it may support,does not prove
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 2
@sonicredcr. Yes you are right, Now I know that a lot of you are clever but if everone just calmed down and watched / lisened to the video it might help.
j2091957 1 year ago
@buffonsarutobi - are the examples of chokuto 'daisho' or are they ceremonial blades or shikomi zue. The shikomi zue blades are quite common and come up on the japanese auction sites. Reproductions are common in asakusa market shops also.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield
I think what I saw was ceremonial one.
But the one JuzoOtomo showed us was Munehiro's Katana in Bakumatsu.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
Making the statement - there are drawings in a document i have seen that has what appears to be a square tsuba and looks to be straighter than normally depicted - would be correct, however ''a sword with a straight blade and square tsuba existed in the edo period' does not directly follow , unless an example had been found with reliable provenance, do you see the point?
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 7
@stevegreenfield
I agree.
Chokuto was very very rare.
Almost all ashigaru carry chokuto in the book.
If we take illustrations of the book as accurate historical record, it can say most of ashigaru in sengoku period used chokuto.
None of Japanese historians have claimed that.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi no you are wrong and way of course. most of the others in the document have "normal" katana. so your theory is redundent. It means SOME ashigaru carried these swords. at leat in the 1800's. Nothing else can be taken. You are jumping ahead and trying to find negitive point. This is not a serch for truth now. You have an agenda.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
>SOME ashigaru carried these swords. at leat in the 1800's.
Which war are you talking about?
Boshin?
Seinan?
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi im not talking about a war, i am talking about their equipment. did they just have thousands of swords made over night or did they have equpiment. Do not try the smoke screen here please. Just throwing Japanese words in does not work on me i am afraid, i like proof. i gave it.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
Research 数打物 or bring yoshie over here.
You do not meet the level of discussion.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield
And ashigaru's weapons were usually provided by daimyo in late sengoku period.
Those swords were mass produced kazuuchimono, it's not reasonable to buy chokuto specially for some ashigaru.
Ashigaru were like consumables消耗品.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi Yes I agree that the Ashigaru would have mass produced blades . The point i'm making is that it is possible to pick up a 'straight' blade japanese sword on yahoo Japan but these represent shikomi zue blades made for that purpose in the meiji era. The point I am saying is that it will not be enough just to produce a japanese straight blade , but the provenance would have to support it not being shikomi or ceremonial , to support the point of its existence in this context
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield
Since I am not Katana expert, I asked about the 1860 sword to one of my friend who's Katana expert.
He said it's not chokuto but muzori.
So I have no example of chokuto uchigatana.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
in edo period.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield
I think the point is that if this sword is only for footsoldiers, or more likely peasents, it should have apeared only before the unification of Japan, and certainly before the Tokugawa period. Because after assuming power, Toyotomi Hideyoshi instated a law in about 1590 that prevented peasents from owning and using weapons, law that remained unitll the Meiji periode. So after this date it would have been futile to invent a sword for the peasent soldiers.
dorussio 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield you're just mincing words and picking a fight.
robocoastie 7 months ago
There is a picture of it on page 72 of kacems book, however its not clear. However it was offered for sale a few years ago to myself and there were photos from there, i have even seen them on the net.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield can you get me a photo of the words Togakure Ryu and in conection to ninjutsu if possible. why have the Bujinkan not jumped all over that? seems strange.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
The title of the document is koshu ryu jingai jutsu togakure ryu kaneru and was written in 1824 from memory. And you know what koshu ryu is? But i am not saying it evidence for togakure ryu ninjutsu, i am saying just because it is on a document doesnt mean it is 'the truth'
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
Please clarify what your issue is.
1.existence of chokuto in edo period.
2.existence of ninjato in edo period.
>Facts, documents, images
for what?
number 1 or 2?
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi just watch 5:40 to 5:46. this is your answer.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
You said "This does not connected to ninja."
So your "issue" is number 2.existence of ninjato in edo period.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi no my issue is this: A sword that has a straight blade with a square guard DID exist in the Edo period. BUT it has NO connection ninjutsu. None.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 i can not find your other post but yes Nakashima Atsumi, are you sure the Iga museum have an online set. do you have a link to show this?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
What I meant was collection list, not content of komonjo.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi oh, thats it. so they are not in PDF then?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
Not the one you want.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi so what do they have in PDF? what is on the PDF to view?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
So your issue is existence of kakutsuba-chokuto.
Kakutsuba is one of very common tsuba, chokuto wasn't common but some edo period chokuto exist in present.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi yep thats what i am saying. But you seem to think they did not exist and now you have changed your mind. Seems strange you keep chaning your mind. I said that they DO exist and now you say they do but before you argued. Make your mind up please.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
Remember, the video title is "The "Ninja Sword" Found in History"
This is the cause.
Content and title lead "Does antony want to say the chokuto is Ninjato?"
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi your the only person who has this problem and your the only none english speaker, everyone else gets the context and the meaning. Its just you. Maybe its down to english being your second language? Everyone hears me say that this style of blade is found, we call it the ninja sword but it is not, it is just a sword. why is it only you who has a problem with this. Shall i name it "edo period straight blade found in edo period art" how many views then? notice the new " " marks!
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
題名がニンジャソードになってるのと、これは忍者と関係ないと言いながら必死で繋げようとするマニアにありがちな姿勢が垣間見えます。
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi i do not speak Japanese. so i can not read this.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 Are you saying "ninja sword" just because you will gain more views?
ninjaplease10 1 year ago
@ninjaplease10
Exactly.
More viewers more book sales.
When it comes with money, everything screwed.
I was disappointed.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
Hi, is there any chance of a better, more detailed scan of these pictures. You state that both types of swords are presented in the images but the only differences noted are slight in the tsuba shape and length of sword as opposed to curvature of the blades. A reference for the documents and the actual quote would be nice... as you have repeated about '100% proven', 'fact' I find that a little academically irresponsible based upon a single source.
diargo2001 1 year ago 2
@diargo2001 nope, i have a quote as well but i am sorry that is for my research at the moment. The image is there, its clear and it is square, the tsuba exists and buffon is finding examples now. You will have to counter argument it i am afraid. its there in 4 or 5 images. sorry but it appears. if you do not believe the image then thats fine aswell. but its as clear as day 4 times.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
But that is the point surely the straight sword is the issue not necessarily the square tsuba?All you have in the above images are the square tsuba and variation demonstrated by the artist with a round tsuba.In the images you have provided above there is no variance of the curvature of the swords this indicates that nearly all the swords were either straight swords or it is the artistic style for that document, does it not?As others have commented,the square shape could also be moku
diargo2001 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
So half providing information and running your mouth off with claims is essentially what you are admitting to? This will be the case until you can provide the document(s)so context,authenticity, reliability can be established. You have made the claims the burden of proof is firmly upon your shoulders, if you hadn't 'researched' it fully, then perhaps you should hold back before posting videos with misleading titles on the internet...
diargo2001 1 year ago 2
@tsoas2008 what i am asking is for you to apply the same requirements of proof you ask of others claims, quite rightly, to yourself. If someone said ' i have a quote saying togakure ryu exists in 1600' you would as for proof of that with reference, just as seeing the name togakure ryu on a non takamatsuden densho is not proof in itself, a drawing of a sword drawn straighter than normal is not proof of the existence of actual straight blades used by ashigaru
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 2
@stevegreenfield do you not think i am doing that. This straight sword goes against my thoughts! its negative for me! but like i always say its a truth. Ok, if togakure can show their name on a document and a conection to hatsumi i would say true. I have found an image and a quote for a straight sword. Same proof, same theroy, same rules. still do not get your problem. A picture and a quote, if Bujinkan had that it would be end of the talks. But when i have it its not good enough?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 actually regards the togakure , no it is not enough , and that comes from someone from within the Takamatsuden. I am saying that if you are putting forward a theory, i.e. that this picture represents a straight bladed square tsuba sword that is in use by the ashigaru, then I am saying that requires more that one photo that is all. Great , if such a sword is found it backs up your evidence, however , because it would be such an anomaly it would be presented in most major sword txts.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 3
@stevegreenfield i think you willfind if Togakure ninjutsu was mentioned in a 1600's scroll and it could be linked to hatsumi, i am afraid to say taht would be enough to make it quite a realistic school. So how do you explain teh quote i have from teh 1600's saying today the samurai prefer straight (not straighter) swords.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008what I am saying is you require context. so sticking with the 1600s quote, what you would need for that to be considered is would be what is the name of the document, the date, its author and provenance and the context of the statement within the text. just as you would ask if i said i had a togakure ryu densho from the 1600s , would you not ask the same questions before you would except the historical veracity of the text an the consequences of it?
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 3
@tsoas2008 well unless you reference the quote you have a picture. So , if we take the example of the koshu ryu togakure ryu gunbai document, that is shown in kacems book, according to the logic you are applying to your picture that wpuld seem to suggest ' its fact ,it exists' , would hou accept that, because i wouldnt just accept that as evidence alone
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 3
@stevegreenfield please tell me the page number in Kacems book where it shows the Kanji for Togakure on a none Takamatsu doeucment? As far as i remeber there is one picture that is unreadable. And you are 100% correct, and i will put the quote in Shinobi Soldiers III. For now i have to keep it back as i am not finished working on it. So for now, teh image is there and the quote is comming. next step. find a sword!
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@j2091957 no i havent which is why it is interesting and am asking for the references
stevegreenfield 1 year ago
Yes i have seen japanese swords in museums both in uk and Japan.
Are you suggesting that in order to disprove your assertion that a straight bladed sword was in use by the ashigaru , I have to check every japanesesword in existance and prove its not straight, surely before anything is 'fact', you have to prove the existance of an actual blade rather than just drawing. Re: the quote, as an accademic , you should reference that with context or it has little meaning.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 8
so there are multiple editions of this book ? do all editions show a similar blade? If not is it not artistic interpretation? When you state the 'straight sword with square tsuba' exists in the historical record and infer from that that this represents a real blade and not a specific artists interpretation, then the burden of proof lies with you when all other evidence , such as the hundreds of thousands of existing blades do not support this.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 3
@stevegreenfield
I looked 2 versions and there was no square tsuba, swords were almost all straight.
On some pictures, the ashigaru carry straight wakizashi and cuved uchigatana or reverse.
So I think we should listen to what the author(of the book Yoshie refered) says about sword illustrations on the book.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago 3
@BuffonSarutobi I agree, the context of this needs to be looked at , as it would be highly unusual for such swords to be issues and goes counter to all the existing blades apart form the shikomi zue of meiji era yes? Square tsuba , not too surprised by that , but againacould just be artistic interpretation of a moku tsuba could it not. The likelyhood of such blades existing and no mention in the record or existing versions is small, which leads me to think this is artistic not 'realistic'
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 8
@stevegreenfield incorrect. He shows too versions. He shows both curved and straight and both square and round. This is proof. If he made it up, then he made it up. but the idea of this sword predates the bujinkan, it predates hayes and no one can get away from that. In a real accademic debate, this would be allowed as proof. This would mean it was more probable then not. You guys are just trying to avoid the point here. Yes it would be good to find one. But still the drawing exists.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 Proof of what? That a drawing exists , that the blade exists?What you are saying then is that a serries of drawing from one individual artist , that goes counter to all other evidence both in terms of other editiions of the same document, or in fact existing blades , commentary on blades or other sources of drawings of blades in itself is proof, and you think that would hold weight academically , that is what you are stating , i just want to be absolutely clear on that point.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 2
@stevegreenfield it is not counter to history at all, you just made that up. Have you checked any museums. The next step is to start asking museums if they have any of these blades. and if you must know, we even have a quote that says straight blades are prefered in these days (1600's) so, yes i do say its real. But if you do not like it. go find every sword in teh world and prove it wrong. Yours is opinion. mine is fact. this is a truth. now can we move on to something positive, like finding 1?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 Ok, if it is me that is going counter to accepted history , could you reference us some refernce books on the japanese sword , that show such blades , i.e. non chokuto, non meiji shikomi zue blades, that were straight (other than ceremonial blades) in such mounts as shown. I would be very interested as I collect antique japanese swords, and have never seen any in the large number of txts i have read on the subject, so please show some as it would be very interesting.
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 2
@stevegreenfield it is not counter to history at all. I have a quote and i have a picture. If you have not found one then maybe we should look. Listen my info is there. my next step is to try and find one in history. Sorry but i have books to write. All this info will come out in the future. For now i have given you the image. Do as you will with it. But if it is counter to history i have one question for you. How does it appear in a drawing and a quote!? you will never remove those two factors
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@stevegreenfield. Hi, I know that you say that you have never seen one, but I was wondering if you have ever seen any drawings or anything that was written about these swords?
j2091957 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TSOAS2008
>we even have a quote that says straight blades are prefered in these days (1600's)
Quote from who?
Does preferred mean more than 50% of nihonto at the time were straight?
Can I see your reference?
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago 2
@stevegreenfield ok, i can no longer find your posts, but yes. for the 900th time, yes. yes yes. I have said many times now. We have an image, we have a quote, we need a sword. However, in history an image and a quote is more than enough. i will not be answering anyone as you have said the same thing 12 times. When you have something more to add i will answer. Buffon has just said he knows of stright edo period examples! i have an image and a quote, what more would you like? Blood?
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
My team found 22 kinds of 雑兵物語Zohyo monogatari, which one has the square tsuba?
And what is the theory why your version is truth and others are not?
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi yes we know, the publisher thinks its the 1847 edition. But they do not know. The book its in says the info is from either the 1744 or the 1847 edition. we just do not know which one. But the point stands. its in the edo period. no getting away from that. Unless its found to not be edo. but the author says he used these two.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
I don't see 1847(Koka4) but many 1846 versions.
Is the book yoshie refer is the one published from shinjinbutsuouraisha?新人物往来社
Who is the author? Does he claim it's ninjato?
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi maybe she means the 1846 version and no the author does not claim it as ninja to? why would he? and why do you keep asking if it is a ninja to? watch the video again i say it is NOT a ninja sword. Why do you keep asking about this. This is not to be considered a weapon in the late edo period. NOT a ninja sword. It could have been used by ANYONE. Please understand this.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008
What's his name?
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TSOAS2008
>i say it is NOT a ninja sword.
again, your video titled "The Ninja Sword Found"
misleading.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago
@BuffonSarutobi what do you mean why it is truth? It appears in the historical record. FACT. No one can get away from this, it is dran a number of times in teh same document. Buffon, this is very very simple. It appears in a document, more than once. It is there. Fact. It is not a difficult concept at all. It is not a ninja sword, it is found before stephen hayes. it is a very simple argument.
TSOAS2008 1 year ago
@TSOAS2008 The facts are you have presented a document, without its full context ,that has a sword drawn straighter than it is usually presented, once or many times it does not matter. If the document states or comments that this is a straight sword then that is an interesting thing indeed and would be of historical significance. Can we agree those are the facts?. Until a straight blade, from a pre meiji period is found this is only a drawing, interesting yes, fact of straight blades,not yet
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 2
@TSOAS2008 Are you therefore saying that if one is able to present historical documents, with drawings in them, or text then it is a 'FACT' as such, or just a fact that it appears in that document. Or are you stating because a drawing or text exists in a print, makimono or densho , it would naturally follow its existance is also fact , because this is a very improtant point
stevegreenfield 1 year ago 3
@TSOAS2008
Did you think chokuto didn't exist?
Then you should change the video title, you are misleading.
No one says chokuto didn't exist in edo period.
BuffonSarutobi 1 year ago