TMNT: Hyperstone Heist BGM 8 Sewers Surfin'

[Muglorgrimlockable]

sigh ah the good ol days where ya know it wasnt all bout killing shit or graphics but fun gameplay

[MrTheNoronha]

Man look at these bass slaps in this song

[xXbelmontXx]

Wait what? Teenage Mutant Ninja Hero Turtles? Really?

[Snip3rNife]

@xXbelmontXx Yeah in one country, forget which, it was called that instead of TMNT, at least for a while. Maybe Ninjas were outlawed

[castorfieber]

@Snip3rNife As far as I know it was called that way in Europe. At least in Germany they called it Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles...

[SirBlendalot]

so rad

[MetallicaMike333]

MY TOES!!!!! MY TOES!!!!!!!!!!!

PIZZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA­AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA POWERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR­RRRRRRRRRRRRR

[theultimatesuit]

@MetallicaMike333

Nostalgic... =)

[ThaBarbarian82]

MY TOE!!! MY TOE!!!

[diegoaccord]

The reason that the Genesis music sounds closer to the arcade in this, and other games (like Street Fighter 2 SCE) is because those arcade games of that time are motorola 68000 based, as is the Genesis.

This can be tested with SF2 Turbo/CE. The Genesis music is "closer" to the CPS1 arcade. But for Super SF2, the SNES's digital clips sound closer to the CPS2 arcade music.

And Segafanatic the SNES's music is usually "muffled" because of a low-pass filter.

[porcorosso81]

@diegoaccord

Not at all. The reason it sounds close is that both the Arcade and Genesis version use 4OP FM generated sound instruments. Has nothing to do with what processor was being used, although the Genesis and arcade version have a dedicated Z80 for sound.

SNES sounds often muffled, because most game developers use heavily compressed samples due to memory shortage on ROM cartridges. Soundtracks like Super Turrican easily show that the SNES can output high quality sound.

[xtreme189]

dont know if its just me but the genesis music sounds closer to the arcade version than the snes

[tecmo1]

@xtreme189 yes. it does. especially the turtle select theme.

[pollo20x6]

yeah, just grainy.

thats why i can never choose whether i like the snes or genesis music more.

xD

fortunately i own both. thank you for swap meets.

^_^

[albertoalejandro0424]

Yup, they are very similar, but... First of all, I don't want to start a SNES vs GENESIS argument, ok?

Genesis' sound processors were as limited as the ones in old arcade games. That was until companies like CAPCOM started to develop new "sound technology". I realized that in SF Alpha games for PSX and PS2, where you can select the BGM type: the old ones that sound like this and the newers that sound a lot better.

SNES had better sound processors, its BGM were a "plus" in many SNES games.

[SegaFanatic5188]

I wouldn't really say SNES's is better. It was limited by low memory and what not, so it's sounds come out low and muffled. Basically Genesis is Analog while SNES is digital, both had their pros and cons.

And with Street Fighter Alpha on PSX the new tracks aren't actually done on a chip, they are prerecorded CD Audio. The Original Tracks on SFA on PSX are actually the renditions done on a PCM chip similar to the SNES.

[albertoalejandro0424]

Maybe nintendo held its system back until they had something better at least in one field -in this case sound fx. Pros and cons aside, snes could produce better voices and more complex instrumentation for BGMs than genesis, right?

I didn't say PSX produced sounds with a chip, I meant we could check a clear "after and before sound technlogy development" by switching between BGM types in the SFA games.

* Here, let's hear this guy about sound:

watch?v=ZnY6doV9Cb4&feature=ch­annel

[SegaFanatic5188]

Not really. SNES's sound is low and muffled in most cases due to a severely limited amount of Audio RAM. Prerecorded samples take up far more space than generated sounds. Genesis also has 6 FM Channels and 4 PSG ones, so it can actually do more instrumentation than SNES. As for Voices Genesis could produce good ones too, it just depended on how well the sound system was written for the game. There is a perfect example of good voice samples in every Sonic game on Genesis.

[SegaFanatic5188]

Continuing on, you missed my point on Street Fighter Alpha. The ones you are labeling as before sound technology development are actually the ones that are after. The ones you are labeling as After are just prerecorded CD Audio. The New Sound Technology you are praising is the exact same technology producing those old sounding renditions you say sound worse.

[albertoalejandro0424]

U know? i want to rephrase it all:

SNES is better than Genesis. Check:

/watch?v=zPDZ9Uml-aY&feature=r­elated&fmt=18

/watch?v=eTxjPYlQXyw&feature=r­elated&fmt=18

The only thing genesis is a bit better than SNES is the processing speed... but without the SNES' details, fog effects, complexity in music and instrumentation, amount of moving objects during game play, backgrounds quality, characters moving, the fidelity to the original piece used as BGM... speed can be just overlooked.

[SegaFanatic5188]

Take a look at Thunder Force 3 and its SNES counterpart Thunder Spirits. The Genesis version blows the SNES version out of the water. The SNES version stutters and slows down every time you shoot, the music sounds awful, and on real hardware it flickers pretty badly.

And SNES actually can't have more moving objects than Genesis. Genesis has a higher sprite limit of 80. SNES's is around 30 so it will begin to flicker badly when it tries to display more sprites while Genesis wont.

[porcorosso81]

@SegaFanatic5188

This is incorrect. Both Genesis and SNES have a similar limit how many sprites can be displayed PER SCANLINE. Sonic 1 for instance has sprite lines disappearing when platforms "crush". And it's true that the Genesis VDP can display 80 sprites overall, while the SNES PPU can display 128.

However, the SNES struggles a lot with its CPU. It's easier to program fast action games on the Genesis. Games like R-Type 3 and Super Turrican 2 however show that it can be done.

[SegaFanatic5188]

However games like Thunder Force 3 fail big time on the SNES. Which is proof that SNES can't handle the same level of fast paced action games that Genesis can. Look at games like Gunstar Heroes, Alien Soldier, Thunder Force 3 and 4, etc. Nothing on SNES comes close to those games because it's not possible on the system with it's slower CPU. As for the sprite limit I realize I was wrong with that, however it doesn't explain why games like Final Fight flickered severely on SNES with few sprites.

[porcorosso81]

@SegaFanatic5188

It's funny how you automatically switch into "defense mode" when I mention a few great SNES titles, even if I agree that the Genesis is generally better suited for fast action games.

My opinion is: everyone who is ignoring either the SNES or Genesis is an idiot, because both platforms have great games. I own both consoles, and I certainly don't want to miss them.

[porcorosso81]

@albertoalejandro0424

And, to be fair to both sides: most Genesis games run at a higher horizontal resolution (320x224) than most SNES games (256x224). CPU Speed is an important factor to have complex game play mechanism. Having 128 hardware sprites is no use when the CPU isn't fast enough to update them in time. The SNES is a real pain in the ass to program for, especially since the 65816 has a way inferior instruction set compared to the 68000.

[albertoalejandro0424]

@porcorosso81 You know the thech part, I only know the final results in gameplay, sounds, and visuals in both systems. Genny is great in racers and shooters but there are more fields where SNES is more generous; I'm pretty sure SNES' capabilities make possible having better games than Genny's. So, what's your veredict? Which is better? *Let's keep policies on games' content aside because nintendo's are a hold back.

[porcorosso81]

@albertoalejandro0424

It depends on what you define as "better games". More colourful? More complex graphic effects? Primitive 3D? Pick the SNES.

Faster games? More complex game mechanics? Slightly higher resolution? Pick the Genesis.

Both systems do have their pro's and con's. For me, games are indeed the most important aspect. Both Genesis and SNES have great games, that's every serious VG fan should play both consoles. One of my personal favourite consoles is the PC-Engine / TG16.

[porcorosso81]

@porcorosso81

To sum it up:

Anyone saying Genesis games look ugly, I'll show them "The Misadventures of Flink".

Anyone saying the SNES is unsuitable for action games, I'll show them "Super Turrican 2".

[porcorosso81]

@SegaFanatic5188

And this is also incorrect. The YM2612 produces sound as much digital as the SNES DSP. The difference is that the sample rate of the SNES is 32040 khz, while the YM2612 outputs FM at 56khz. However, the Genesis sound output is limited by aliasing distortion, because the YM2612 has not a 16 Bit but 9 Bit DAC. You can hear this when instruments fade out. This is a trait which isn't emulated by any emulator so far.

[porcorosso81]

@SegaFanatic5188

This is bullshit. The YM2612 basically has the same digital FM engine as the YM2203 (doubled, minus the PSG voices), which requires an external DAC. The fact that YM2612 has an integrated DAC (for cost cuttings) doesn't change the fact that the FM algorithm is calculated completely in a digital way. Yamaha adopted FM exactly because it's easy to implement digitally.

Both Genesis and SNES output digital sound. There is no analogue synthesis involved.

[porcorosso81]

@SegaFanatic5188

Of course does the YM2612 need to output an analogue voltage in order to hook it up to an analogue audio amp, genius. The same is true for the SNES, which also outputs analogue voltages.

I explain it again to you: the YM2612 performs the FM algorithm digitally. All Yamaha FM chips have a 256 Byte Sine-Wave rom on the chip. It's connected to a state machine consisting of adders and digital counters. The result is a digital number which is fed to the 9 bit DAC.

[porcorosso81]

@SegaFanatic5188

And again: I don't discuss here which system sounds "better" or "worse". I am just correcting your grave misunderstandings what analogue and digital synths are. There is nothing remotely analogue involved in the waveform creation of both Genesis and SNES sound.

Btw, the SNES doesn't just "replay" samples. It also has an envelope generator, echo buffer and a digital sampling interpolator. It seems you don't know much about how both systems generate their sound output.

[porcorosso81]

@SegaFanatic5188

Dude, Yamaha themselves clearly state that their FM synthesizer chips are digital, no matter how often you try to twist the definitions to fit your own opinion. This was the big selling aspect of the DX synthesizer series, which ALL include their YM series of chips.

The discussion SNES vs. Genesis is not "analogue" vs. "digital" but PCM vs. FM synthesis. Does it bother you that the YM2612 has a very small sample rom where half of a sine wave is stored in digital form?

[porcorosso81]

And no, the FM chips are clearly NOT stuck between analogue and digital. They are fully digital. They have digital oscillators and consist of digital adders and subtractors. Do you know what analogue synths are? They consist of VOLTAGE CONTROLLED OSCILLATORS, VOLTAGE CONTROLLED AMPLIFIERS and VOLTAGE CONTOLLED FILTERS. One true analog synth chip is the CEM3394. The 6581 SID chip in the Commodore 64 is a hybrid. It has digital oscillators, but analogue filters and envelopes. But NOT the YM2612.

[porcorosso81]

So, no matter how often you try to answer, you are clearly wrong. Opinions do NOT change facts. They can't make 2+2=5, change water into wine, and make a fully digital design into an analogue one.

[SegaFanatic5188]

@porcorosso81 I never said the digital design was analog, I said the sound output was analog, which it is. FM Synthesis and the Yamaha Digital Synthesizers are not considered digital audio. The SNES outputs digital audio, the Genesis does not. That was my statement and my point was they were merely different. Instead of going into a long winded argument I merely explained it in a simple way.

[SegaFanatic5188]

@porcorosso81 This has reached the point where you are blowing things out of proportion and reading in absolutes. This wasn't an argument over whether or not the YM2612 is a digital synthesizer but on the sound produced and output by the consoles. You have taken a minor error and turned it into a giant worthless string of comments no one wants to read. Are you proud of yourself? You haven't even read or understood any of the arguments here, you have just nitpicked and bitched about minor errors.

[porcorosso81]

* The sound OUTPUT of the SNES is as much analogue as the Genesis. The SYNTHESIS of BOTH consoles is DIGITAL.

* The discussion PCM vs. FM is NOT an analogue vs. digital debate. FM can be implemented using analogue equipment. This is NOT the case with the Genesis.

* The discussion is so long because you refuse to accept the proper terms. The YM2612 is as much a digital synth chip as the SNES DSP. Both output analogue voltages. Both work fully digital internally.

[porcorosso81]

Contrary to you, I do posess full knowledge of PCM and FM synthesis. I doubt you ever made an instrument patch using both synthesis techniques in your life. I doubt you ever implemented a digital sound circuit in an FPGA . I doubt you ever read about the various different variants of DAC's. I doubt you ever read the register description of both YM2612 and SNES DSP.

Saying the YM2612 is analogue and the SNES DSP is digital isn't a minor but a MAJOR misunderstanding.

[SegaFanatic5188]

@porcorosso81 I said I was simplifying it. What part of that did you not get? I understand It's a digital synthesizer and uses digital data to create it's sound. However it is not considered digital audio. Instead of going into detail and saying this is a digital synthesizer that creates it's own waveforms to produce sound vs the SNES which uses a digital audio system most people wouldn't understand. It was eaiser to say it's digital vs Analog. Which isn't entirely wrong either.

[porcorosso81]

@SegaFanatic5188

And what part do you fail to understand that saying YM2612 is analogue and SNES DSP is digital isn't simplification, but just saying things which are plain wrong?

Analogue synthesis is something completely different. Even modern synthesizers which try to approximate analogue behaviour using fast DSPs aren't considered analogue by the synthesizer community.

As soon as a device creates quantisized digital values in a time discrete domain, it creates digital audio.

[SegaFanatic5188]

@porcorosso81 My point was that they were different, we didn't have to go into this long conversation of Digital vs Analog synthesis. God forbid I generally categorize their sound based on the outputs of their chips.

[SegaFanatic5188]

@porcorosso81 SNES can output in Digital. The Genesis cannot because it's chip only outputs analog sound. It is not entirely incorrect to say one is digital, the other is analog. SNES uses Digital Audio, which if you look up pertains exclusively to PCM. FM Synthesis while capable of being implemented digitally is not considered digital audio. Instead of going into detail with that I merely simplified it and said it was analog. My bad, from now on I will bore everyone with irrelevant details.

[porcorosso81]

Sorry, but the fact that the YM2612 has its DAC implemented on its chip die doesn't make it an analogue chip! There are lots of other digital sound chips which have its own DAC implemented. Like the ENSONIQ OTTO PCM chip. Or the Amiga Paula. Both don't need external DAC's, both work fully digital internally, hence they create digital sound. This is the correct definition. Ever occured to you that ANALOGUE sound chips don't need a DAC (DIGITAL to ANALOGUE converter)?

[SegaFanatic5188]

@porcorosso81 God forbid someone make a mistake, you don't have to keep bashing my head in. I get it, the thing is digital. God forbid I say one is analog the other is digital instead of saying one is FM synthesis and the other is PCM which most people don't have a clue what those are, especially the people posting here on youtube.

[porcorosso81]

Both chips rely on digital data to create their sounds. The SNES has digitized samples stored in memory, the YM2612 has a small digital sine wave rom on the chip.

You have the choice between accepting those facts, maybe learning something new, or stay ignorant, be a fanatic and keep repeating BS.

[SegaFanatic5188]

@porcorosso81 I already accepted those facts, I admitted that I was simplifying it. This argument was over with my last comments. I said I knew it was a digital synthesizer, I said it was not the same as the digital audio used by the SNES. My argument was never analog vs digital, it was explaining the difference between SNES and Genesis sound. I merely said it was analog vs digital to explain it, and it's not entirely false either. Genesis outputs only in Analog, SNES can output in both.

[SegaFanatic5188]

@porcorosso81 Now, this has gone on long enough. I've admitted that I was wrong to say it was analog vs digital and that it was a simplification. However if that is not good enough for you please continue to prove how much of an ass you are by beating me over the head over something so pointless and stupid as this. It doesn't matter if I get every minute detail correct, as long as communicate the right idea here that's all that matters. And that is what I did.

[porcorosso81]

@SegaFanatic5188

I am an ass for correcting your mistakes, which are in neither a simplification of the truth, nor do they convey the right idea what the difference between FM and PCM is?

The truth is: you hate to admit being completely wrong. Instead of admitting: yeah, 2+2 is not five, you try to bargain your way out by saying: 2+2 is between 4 and five.

If you think technological discussions are boring and stupid, then don't pretend to be knowledgeable in those fields and stop doing them.

[SegaFanatic5188]

@porcorosso81 I never said I was the all knowing person here. I merely made a comment, my details may have been wrong, but my point was still valid. SNES and Genesis both sound good, they are just different approaches to sound is all.

[SegaFanatic5188]

@porcorosso81 And I don't think Tech arguments are boring, and I don't pretend to be knowledgeable, I just know 99% of the people on youtube skip over them and go straight for the "SNES RULEZ!!!11!!" comments instead. If you get to technical in your comments that pretty much guarantees no one will read them.

[SegaFanatic5188]

@porcorosso81 I clearly stated I was simplifying it. I know the YM2612 is a digital synthesizer. However, it outputs in analog and is not considered digital audio. The SNES outputs digital audio, the Genesis outputs digitally synthesized analog audio. Instead of fully explaining it in a full comment I simply said "One is analog, one is digital" Which is sufficient enough to explain it to average person. Digital Audio pertains exclusively to PCM, not FM Synthesis.

[porcorosso81]

The frustrating thing is: I provide you with detailed explanations and hints, yet you still hold on to your half-assed opinions. Pick a Yamaha data sheet and learn something about how FM works. I personally own a DX-21 synthesizer. It's the same kind of 4OP FM synthesis the YM2612 uses (the DX-21 has a YM2164). Same algorithms (how the operators are connected), same parameters. You can take its instrument patches, write the register values in the YM2612, and get the exact same instruments.

[SegaFanatic5188]

@porcorosso81 My opinion was that both systems were equal and had good sound. They were just different in how they arrived at their sound output. SNES replays digital samples (at a simple level this is exactly what it's doing, while there is more going on under the hood, this is all you really need to know to understand the argument) and Genesis generates an analog waveforms to create sound (Again, more going on under the hood, but this is all you need to know to understand). ...

[SegaFanatic5188]

@porcorosso81 You were the one here who completely missed my point just for the opportunity to shout "WRONG!!!" I may not know every minute detail about the Genesis and SNES, and I don't claim to, I will however not bury people in technical babble that they most likely wont understand, I will simplify it for them so they get the gist of it.

Regardless of what goes on under the hood when you get right down to it Genesis produces analog wave forms, SNES replays digital samples. That was my point.

[porcorosso81]

@SegaFanatic5188

Plus, you misread my comment. I wasn't commenting on the difference between PCM and FM synthesis, but the difference between the digital output of the two chips. SNES outputs its sound data at 32040 Hz, 16 Bit, Genesis output is 56khz, 9 Bit. This is the most general way how to describe the difference in sound QUALITY.

[porcorosso81]

@SegaFanatic5188

The DAC of the YM2612 is as much digital as the FM algorithm. If you enable the DAC bit, FM channel 5 is disconnected from the DAC and replaced by the value contained in the register, thus enabling the CPU to directly shape the sound, instead of the FM engine.

Again: the YM2612 is A DIGITAL SYNTH! ALL Yamaha FM chips are DIGITAL. The only difference is that the YM2612 has the DAC ON THE CHIP, TO SAVE COSTS. But that doesn't make it an analogue synthesizer!

[MasterSystem90]

This game was superior on the snes,  the best tune on the game being neon night riders

[NucleaRaptor]

Man,the Sega version of the soundtrack is so obviously fucking superior. Leave it to the good old YM2612 to produce that bitchin' beat.

[BalooRJ]

I agree, the music sounds much better on the Genesis compared to SNES.

[goeb16]

did the SNES version have a dash button? cuz I'm pretty sure I remember the Genesis version having one (C) and it was pretty useful...

[SecondZeroTwo]

Actually yeah, you can set it to dashing auto or manually.

[venomchris]

no it didnt, all u had to do is hold a direction for 2 seconds and it would run

[SecondZeroTwo]

Yeah it did, you can set it to so you can dash with a button instead of it doing it on its own

[BalooRJ]

Nope, the only way you could dash was to hold down left or right, or you could change it to manual as two taps. Made running attacks pretty difficult to pull off.

[goeb16]

no, cuz I clearly remember doing the sliding attack as holding the direction, pressing C to start dashing, then B to do the rolling action, then A to do the actual sliding attack

[SDSOverfiend]

Im sorry Sega version killed this song.

we know nothing fucked with the Snes port but i love the part that you surfed your way to the broken ship in hyperstone hiest.

[kungensick]

best track in the game...

[monsts]

SNES version> Arcade version> Sega version

[monsts]

I just like the SNES music better, and the banter between the turtles in the arcade version gets on my nerves.

[pollo20x6]

but the snes one was better

it had a vs mode

an extra level

a time trial mode

its been said that very few games break the norm of arcade beats home port, but the snes turltes was one of them.

and so was soul caliber one.

[SegaFanatic5188]

But it really didn't, it was missing animations, voices, and other details present in the Arcade version. The Genesis and SNES versions of Street Fighter 2 added new game modes, but they are not considered better than the arcade at all.

And if I remember correctly, the Genesis version actually sounds closer to the arcade versions music. But its not really fair to compare it as it's simply a different game that just uses the same music.

[pollo20x6]

so what is it was missing some animations and sounds.

overall it was a better game.

id rather have all those extras than the sounds and animations.

im not saying the arcade one sucks, but i think its fair to say that the snes version was the best.

[SegaFanatic5188]

For something to be considered better than the Arcade though it has to have everything from the Arcade and more. Soul Calibur on Dreamcast is considered better for this reason. It has better graphics, gameplay, and sound plus more content. TMNT on the SNES only has some new content, it doesn't have as good of graphics or sound, and it is also missing some content such as sound effects and I think a few moves may be missing as well.

[HyperSonicXtreme]

COWABUNGA!!