fueding with the owner of the company right after the "montreal SJ" was just a lucky accident of timing to help put a great gimick over and make austin the star it did. guess the heel makes the face is true.
Hey Roundtable guys! History is repeating itself. Many mid-carders in WCW eventually got their push in WWE. nWo continued to unfairly book themselves along instead of Jericho, Mysterio, Guerrero or Benoit. And Ten years later: MORE OF THE SAME! You have John Cena, Triple H and Batista every year headlining Wrestlemania! Twenty years later, HBK and Taker are the main attraction of Wrestlemania! What??? There's so much talent like Kofi, R-Truth, John Morrison or Jack Swagger!
@fundyspokerblog They were EPIC to say the least but the second one was not as good and mostly interesting due to HBK's pending retirement. I'm telling you, if Taker's streak were to end, Kane is the only man I picture to be the man for the job. If anyone else did it, it would be an insult to Shawn Michaels who lost twice but Kane has also lost twice to Undertaker and the third time would be a charm. Plus Kane is so hot right now and I would love to keep his run going.
@WrestlingRoundtable Hahaha c'mon E. Did you like it because it was a better worked match or because you wanted to see Shawn Michaels, a wrestler you're not a fan of, retire?
@JMBitchboy Because it was a better worked match. Firstly, I still, still, even after signs don't point otherwise, think HBK will be back for a match someday. Secondly, I believe I've said my piece on the match during our first Radio show, but I preferred the 2nd WM HBK/UT match rather than the first because I thought the pacing was better. The first half of the first match I found rather dull comparatively.
I think one of the measures of a legend is how well he can put people over without lossing to them. Flair put both Sting and Steamboat even though he one. I mean look at the first Clash of Champions.
On the first 10 comments, I've seen nobody really touch on Chris Jericho's run in 98 where they tried to push him hard. I remember tuning in to watch the nWo, but a close second would be what Jericho would do with those amazing mic skills and how he played off of anyone opposing him so well. Jo-Jo Dillon, Gene Mean, Deano Machino, Ralphus and Price Maka Maka. He was ready to be one of the main guys, but the nWo storylines held him back. The same could be said for Rey Mysterio and Eddie.
9. Kevin Nash stopping Goldbergs Undefeated Streak.
10. Former WWE stars wouldn't move away from the spot light.
"WCW had the largest wrestling roster than WWE and "Original ECW" combined. WCW and ECW was the close to real wrestling and that was the two companies focus while WWE is into the Entertainment Soap Opera crap.
It's really interesting that this because of passion becomes more of an almost argument (almost). Which is ok I'm not criticized my point is the show has evolved and gone from strength to strength. Loved the show then love it now.
I typed in to youtube the death of wcw part 1naturally so I could report the upload cough cough. Behold every other suggestion was about He that we do not speak of. For someone we are not speaking of that mother fer comes up a lot lol.
the problem was wcw didnt have guys to make the guys like booker/benoit/saturn/konnan/vampiro look good. Guys like luger,nash,hogan, didnt have the ability to really put them over because the fans werent there to watch. It dosent matter if you do the greatest angles ever if you dont have a fan base
and you cant say to me anyone in wwe at the moment other than triple h undertaker or hbk is anywhere near better than sting ,wcw ruled they beat wwe 84 weeks in a row they say they never pushed anyone wtf they pushed scott stiener , jeff jarret ,goldberg,ddp,booker t? and benoit had the strap before he left just couldn take having classics against jarret while people was better a.k.a sting hogan luger ddp goldbger couldnt draw the fans well not the comapnnys fault
That's not the reason Benoit left at all first of all, and I could name a whole bunch of people in WWE right now who are better than Sting, but again, that's just an opinion. And if I could make sense out of your terrible fucking writing I'd understand what you meant at the end, I'd say something about it, but since I don't, I won't. You ought to try that sometime.
mate i no for a fact sting is better than most like cena batista or orton ? hes a better in ring performer in his 50s than any of those in there 20s now? wcw made luger sting flair goldberg and ddp they had more potential than anyone in buff bagwell vampiro and lance storm and beoit and guerrero were just bitches at the time that they couldn main event when they wasnt ready for it no disresepect i love them both but we all no its true people point proven
How exactly do you know those guys you listed "couldn't main event" or "weren't ready" when they were never even given a chance to in the first place? No, point not proven, because we can barely read your shit. Sting being better than those people you listed is all an opinion anyway. Benoit & Guerrero were bitches? Maybe, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have main evented either.
wcw made plenty of stars ? benoit gurrero jericho wouldn of bin in wwf if wcw didnt make them first!! booker t wcw champion 5 times wwe ruin him into king booker? scott steiner awsome star had to job to test ? ddp goldberg buff bagwell jeff jarret scott steiner lance storm mike awsome rey mysterio kidman saturn jericho booker t who was made by wcw !!!! then you had sting and rick flair wcw made two greatest ever and you had nash hogan hall savage luger hennig windham so fuck eveyrone wcw ruledd
I hate to say it, but Benjamin has lost all momentum and probably will never rise about mid-card. Maybe if he is repackaged and given a ton of attention....who knows, maybe...but I don't see the WWE giving him any of that. I also think they should have done more with Benjamin and his "momma" that was the real gold standard lol
I think you also have to take in account house shows. It was widely spread that WCW could not fill a house show unlike WWF could at the time. It may look like a sold out crowd but how many were "sold" tickets and not seat fillers. We all know Ted Turner had deep pockets but towards then end WCW was not making the money WWF was and AOL/Time Warner pulled the plug.
WCW Never Could'nt Compete With The WWF. Bullshit. Nitro Beat Raw In Ratings Over 70 Weeks Str8. That's Not Competing With WWF. WWF Almost Went Out Of Buisness Cause Of WCW. That's A Fact. Watch The Monday Night War DVD
wcw beat the wwf over 70 weeks in a row? So how many weeks in a row did wwf beat wcw from mid 98 to march 2001?
Alot more than wcw and thats a fact. Sure, wcw was awesome but lets face facts here... the wwf blew wcw out of the water from november 88 when turner bought it to march 96 then again from mid 98 to march 01.
Of course WWF beat WCW more, they 'won' the 'war' too. WWF almost always had better outlets, connections, marketing, and on top of that WCW was the unwanted redheaded wrestling stepchild of the AOL/Time Warner, not given access to all(some, but not nearly all) of their synergistic options in the Turner family. WCW had hot & cold periods, however I don't think the fact they're the only company to ever topple the WWF(even momentarily) should be discounted. There are many reasons why they died
wcw lost the war. but they did give wwf a run for they money. i mean imagine if wcw did put the wwf out of buiness. the wrestling world would be so different right now.
To be exact, from 11/2/98-3/26/01, Raw beat Nitro head-to-head for 122 consecutive weeks. The one week Nitro was unopposed in that time period (2/8/99), it drew a 5.7 rating, ratings fell slowly after that . The 84 consecutive weeks Nitro won head-to-head from 6/17/96-3/30/98 pales in comparison, obviously because the WWF's string of victories broke WCW's back for good. Though that Nitro string almost put the WWF out of business.
Overall it was 158 wins for Raw, 110 for Nitro, and 3 ties.
Well, if we want to talk foreign markets, how about WCW not capitalizing on the Canadian market when they got Bret Hart in 1997(A traditionally WWF-centric market, at least in the post-territory period). How about not utilizing their links to Japan or Mexico when they were at their hottest? They had a huge lucha roster, a relationship with New Japan, etc. WCW never really exploited these opportunities. WWE hasn't done the BEST job of it either but they're also still around, heh.
You're right about that. WWF did totally dominate WCW in the UK. WCW was never really big in the UK, or internationally for that matter. That may be an under-the-radar (but not major) reason why WCW slowly died, their failure to make a major impact with wrestling fans outside the U.S.
WCW actually had a German only PPV called Millennium Final that took place on 11/16/00 that drew 9,000, but it really did them no good on an international platform since they were already out of it.
Unless you count Michaels/HHH for the European title, and the New Age Outlaws doing just that in a 4-way for the tag titles on Heat in 98, which started what was called on TV the 'Outlaw rule' where tag partners couldn't pin each other to win a match, heh.
yh ok, but wcw definitly seemed to have alot more, wwf hav a few stand out occasions, the michaels vs hhh thing for example was really a big joke and was sort of in keeping with the comedic style of dx at that point and was there way of getting one up on sgt slaughter, i personally never have seen the outlaws match
WCW had a bunch - not too many actually, but they're just more famous. They did a few on TV/PPV in the Russo era, but obviously the Fingerpoke of Doom & the Jarrett/Hogan shit from Bash At the Beach 2000 are famous examples, and almost all of them were in the 'worked shoot' vain, which are always stupid, heh
I look at the title. Look at Wikipedia's history of the WCW title. They went from being a more wrestling focused pro wrestling platform in the early/mid 90's to an organization that was consistently betraying their viewers - bait and switch.
It wasn't just that the matches never lived up to the hype - it was that the title itself had become obsolete. They vacated it 8 times following Starrcade '97 which had been considered a nail in the coffin to the WWE at the time following Montreal.
The title was barely ever defended during their hottest period, though(the build to Sting/Hogan), while Hollywood Hogan had it. Sure, it was important a few times after that(like when Goldberg won it), but in general, I don't particularly point to world title being the #1 reason why WCW lost so many viewers. It didn't help whatsoever, that's for sure, but I think WCW had much bigger problems than just the title. & Wikipedia isn't reliable, heh, esp. w/ WCW stuff.
imagine having dean malenko come out and out- wrestling the main event guy. even if malenko doesn't win, showing him out wrestle a guy like hogan and hogan having to cheat to win against a guy who was basically known as a cruiserweight aka a mid carder cause u needed to be a big guy to get over. doing that would have raised malenko's stock.
WCW Didn't make stars!!! They made mid-carders! They made DDP, Goldberg, Sting and that's about it. Booker T was good in WCW. He became a STAR in WWE and that's just how I feel about it.
Yeah... but look when those five title reigns came. Like, when I am talking to people about Booker T, most of his memorable stuff comes from his WWE days. In WCW, I remember his match with Bret Hart, His 7 match series with he we do not speak of, and him winning the belt the FIRST time, and when he called Hulk Hogan the N-Word. In WWE, he has SEVERAL memorable moments and was able to do more mass media outside of wrestling.
If you noticed, I mentioned DDP and Goldberg. I give credit where it is due. Lance Storm was NEVER a star. When I think of stars I think of guys like The Rock, RKO, Jericho, HBK, Booker T, Macho Man, Hogan... guys like that. All of the guys in WCW were just there. Jericho was popular with the wrestling heads in WCW... He became a house hold name in WWE!!! There is no way anyone can dispute that.
Lance Storm was slowly getting pushed in WCW-at one point he had all the belts except the World title. He would have gotten a Randy Orton-type treatement too if WCW hadn't gotten bankrupt. Same thing with Vampiro, Mike Sanders, Mike Awesome and a lot of new guys WCW had in mind to make stars.
Of course you could dispute Jericho being a household name. Since when? ha
Anyway, just because you're not a main eventer doesn't mean you're not a 'star.' WWF turned practically their entire midcard in to cartoon characters...whoops, I mean stars, in the 80s. Guys like Nikolai Volkoff, Koko B. Ware, Hillbilly Jim, etc. They weren't main eventing PPVs, but with WWF's marketing, they were able to sell them to their audience. Lance Storm was at least at this level in his WCW run.
I just do not think that WCW put fourth a valiant effort to make stars out of guys is all I am saying. If you want to dispute Jericho being a household name that is fine but all I am saying is that no one knew who he was in WCW. Now, Jericho is working with the Groundlings and is always doing those VH1 shows. People know who Jericho is outside of wrestling; a lot of people.
There's no disputing that WCW didn't make many main event level crossover stars in their later years(Goldberg, DDP) as they did in their earlier years(Sting, Flair, etc.), and while I would argue that Jericho's WCW run was a huge factor in his WWE signing in the first place, & question just how many people really know Jericho outside of wrestling, heh, you do make the point that many of his outside-of-wrestling activities did happen post-WCW, & he's probably not alone.
I did watch the video again, and in the context of what you are saying, I understand it a little bit better. I use to be a big WWE head, and Rick Rude actually had a better WCW career than he did a WWE career, but he was alread a star by the time he got there. Hell, they even made Davey Boy Smith a top level guy in WCW, but even he was a WWF guy. WCW did not respect their home grown wrestlers the way they should have.
Thanks for re-watching. It's still kind of a muddy area so to speak when discussing what exactly constitutes a 'star,' but when mentioning Rude & Bulldog, keep in mind that they were heavily involved in - at that point - Sting, Sid, Vader & Flair, all of whom were WCW originals. That's not to say WCW never used ex-WWF wrestlers as crutches, which they obviously did to a fault, but at the same time still had homegrown guys. At least until Hogan ruined it in 94 ;)
LOL! Okay, I will give you Vader, Sting, & Flair. Sid, however, I remember him being a Tag Team wrestler & a member of the Four Horseman... I think he had one match with Sting for the belt, but Sting made light work out of him. Then I remember him going 2 WWE and being in main event fueds with the likes of Warrior, Hogan, etc. Wasn't he the best man at Macho's wedding? lol, anyway, when he went BACK to WCW he was a Main eventer but it was like they needed WWE to validate him.
With all that said though, I will finally concede that stars WERE in fact made in WCW. I guess, my mind goes straight all the bull crap, especially the post Hogan crap.. Sid however, it's hard to say... the stuff that sticks in my head about him comes from WWE, ie. the Wrestlemania 8 press conference ("Now Jack Tunney what you did was BOGUS!!"). He did have at least a decent WCW run so maybe he was made in WCW... Man, I am actually torn.
"...More bogus than anything you've ever pulled off!" ha, I remember. But Sid was main eventing against Sting for the title before the WWF run, mind you. Of course, the perception to many people, including a lot of the wrestlers, was that you 'go to the WWF to become a star,' which if what Hogan advised Giant/Big Show to do. But again, there's plenty of wrestlers from the NWA/WCW era who were either big stars before the WWF or never did go. Dusty Rhodes for one, Sting for another, to name two
@WrestlingRoundtable hogan advised giant/big show to go to the wwe im not sure where u got this from but its not true he went because he was world champ and a big name in wcw but eric wouldnt give him a raise
And I agree that you do not have to be a main eventer to be star, but people at least have to know who you are and by the time Lance Storm got popular in WCW many people stopped watching. Lance Storm was great. but not enough people saw his greatness. It's like being known as an average guy your whole life, then meeting Halle Berry on a plane and havign sex with her. Only for the plane to crash, and you both dying. Yeah, you had sex with Halle Berry, but you can't brag about it.
The Halle Berry-sex-on-a-crashing-plane analogy is a perfect comparison to WCW's stars in their last few years :) However, keep in mind that despite WCW's downfall from their former heights just a few short years before, their ratings were A. Still the highest on TNT B. Still usually at least twice as much as TNA's current record high, so that is a considerable amount of people still exposed to their stars. The real counterpoint to that is how many MORE people were watching WWF at the time
WCW was down to around a 2 rating for Nitro and all their other shows rated so bad they were axed when WCW died, so WCW was not beating any thing in the ratings then. Wrestling fans do not understand how television works and that ratings are minor compared to advertising revenue. Dog shows and golf do no ratings, but are on because they produce advertising revenue. Wrestling has never produced great advertising revenue and then WCW blew the roof off on production costs so it was a fiscal mess
Ratings are minor? So advertisers buy network time to pitch their products to nonexistent audiences? If WCW had still been pulling down monster ratings after the AOL/TW merger, the ad dollars would have followed, and it wouldn't have mattered what little twerp executive thought of having wrestling on their network. If WCW was a hot commodity and AOL/TW didn't want it, you can bet someone else definitely would have bought it for a steal and found a willing network.
I think what fans/marks/smarks mean when WCW never made stars I believe what they mean by that is WCW never pushed anyone towards the WCW Title at least not like they did for Goldberg. I'm not saying WWE is not guilty of this either through their history. TNA is notorious for it quite frankly. I'm not a DDP mark but come on, DDP was over and he should had a run in 1998 with the WCW Title somewhere. Where? Don't ask me I'm not a guest booker. My point is he was over in '98 and '97.
A bit? I'd say an arena full of thousands of Storm shirts & Canadian flags cheering on the guy who held three belts of the second biggest promotion in America all on cable TV within weeks of his debut & being a believable world title contender, as was the visible case at the New Blood Rising ppv in August of 2000, is quite more significant than being a midcarder(albeit a 'name' midcarder with a rep of being a good worker, but midcarder nonetheless) in an indy.
you have your opinion , i have mine. Why must you come on here, and act like ecw was just another independent promotion? just because you werent into it? and then you quote year 2000 wcw? bahahahhahaahah. cmon man, really? get over your marking out for wcw and post some sensible comments. It seems to me that you think the only things "right" with wrestling is what you enkjoyed the most, and refurse to care about what other people liked.
and IMO that is why this show never really succeded to the point that it COULD have. there is an opinion for ya. Its wayyyy to close minded. i never liked wcw. why? because it was what it was. it was a load of bullshit. you see, you cant deal with ppl having a different opinion then you. every comment on every video, you feel the need to defend what YOU think. why dont you try listening to ppl for once
If the show was close-minded, I wouldn't even allow comments. How can you say I'M close minded when insult me for merely saying ECW was smaller than WCW, as if it wasn't? You flip out about your precious indy like it's your penis size. I know, defending what I think is a silly idea, like I need reasons or something, but I do listen, and what I'm listening to is a guy who feels the need to insult me in fanboy anger & in the process sound like the biggest hypocrite I've heard in a while.
Oh, don't get me wrong I loved the nWo Elite. I'm just saying as far as when they did it, it probably would have made sense somewhere else, don't ask me where, I'm just saying Goldberg just lost the WCW Title wouldn't it have made more sense to do the swerve, at the Souled Out Pay Per View rather than when WCW could have won the ratings war for the first time since September '98?
You would have had the finger-poke done during a pay-per-view? Better to do it on free tv.
Me and friends loved when it happened live but looking back I see only three problems in the execution:
1. Tony should have shut his trap about Foley winning the belt on RAW
2. They did the swerve too close to Souled Out. It should have happened earlier so it could have been build up with a mad Goldberg going after the nWo at that event.
3. wrong oponant to take revenge. Should have been HH not SH.
I agree, I don't know about Hogan taking Razor's place. What you're suggesting about Goldberg going after the WCW Title and the nWo is pretty much what Kevin Nash wanted to do when he took over the booking in Feb. of '99. Goldberg going through Bret Hart, Luger, Bagwell, Steiner, Nash, Hall, and finally at the end of the year win the WCW Title back, but because of Hogan's contract that couldn't be done. Nash wanted Hogan to be like a GM of WCW and his contract wouldn't allow that cash wise.
Ok, why must you come on here & act like ECW was more than what it was? It was the most successful indy maybe ever, but indy nonetheless. I was way in to ECW, but numbers are numbers. You can laugh at year 2000 WCW all you want, but even at that time frame, their ratings were way higher than ECW's by a wide margin. You play to a bigger audience with a bigger push in a bigger venue, that would just seem to me that makes you a bigger star. So maybe YOU are the one who should stop marking out.
While you guys may consider ECW the most sucessful indy ever, it never seems to get enough credit, without ECW you wouldnt have had Mck Foley getting to where he did, you wouldnt have the fast paced style of wrestling that you had duing the late 90s and 2000s ECW did alot to change the wrestling buissness, and helped make stars, look at the Dudley Boyz, look at RVD. ECW helped to get the WCW and WWF to that higher level
I think the wisest thing said in this video is two things... 1998 was probably the biggest year in the industry period overall... WWE was finally coming back and starting the Attitude Era. Nitro was still kicking major butt at that point and the Original ECW probably had their biggest year in 1998 and the second wise statement is "for every Goldberg beating Hogan in '98 there should've been five more of those" Don't think it would've happened but it should've.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I actually thought that ECW should not have been included in the invasion angle just because in my opinion they are completely irrelavent to the monday night wars. However, Lance Storm was never a star, ever!! Not even in WCW. Yes, he was known to more people but a star? Maybe your definition of star is different from mine but when I think of stars I think of guys like Macho Man, Rock, Austin, Sting, Hogan, Orton, Piper, Jericho, etc... Not guys like
Lance Storm. I went to a few events WCW had in 2000 and they were giving a lot of those canadian flags and shit out for free. Jericho was popular in WCW, yes, but he became a star in WWE. Same with Eddy Guerrero and the guy we do not speak of. WCW did not create any stars outside of DDP, Sting, Goldberg and maybe a few others. Guys would get popular in WCW, then go to WWE and turn into stars, hell, Icons! Did WCW have talent? Yes. they had a ton. Unfortunately most of them became stars in WWE.
When these guys lke Jericho and Eddy left WCW they became more well known because WWF is the Titan of pro wrestling. They say you've made it once you wrestle at a Wrestlemania. Yes those guys eventually won the heavyweight title but not before losing matches to WWE's stars. They weren't pushed the way fans wanted to see them pushed.
That's bullshit & you know it ; Sting's been a big star but never been in WWE, let alone wrestled at WrestleMania. And even if they hadn't, Ric Flair & Goldberg would have still been as big stars as they were had they never went to WWE at some point.
I agree that in order to be a star, a worker needs to rub shoulders with the current stars. There are a load of exceptions though. Billy Gunn was in a few programmes with the Rock, and he went nowhere. The British Bulldog had a few title shots on PPV in 1995/6, as well as an extended feud with the Rock when he came back in 1999.
fully agree stars like benoit, malenko, eddie g were major stars in japan and learned their trade there just the fact that they were nver on tv in american they werent considered big stars.
Even if they were stars in Japan, and they were, none of them were quite Stan Hansen or Hogan levels there either(ECW didn't have the audience national TV did also), so I'd have to somewhat disagree with nickthewelshlad on the words 'major stars' there, but nonetheless, I think everyone agrees they didn't become 'names' or (what's that word McMahon's drilled in to everyone's heads?) 'superstars' until Bischoff put them on the national stage, on American cable tv.
I'm one of the biggest DDP marks out there, but POP, WWE, and DDP just don't go together...He came in with a lame gimmick, then THE UNDERTAKER basically man-handled him and it was downhill from there...
If you're one of the biggest DDP 'marks' then you should remember his debut better. As soon as he took off the mask, people popped HUGE. Go back & watch it. People forgot, momentarily, about the stupid stalker angle & put up the diamond cutter sign. Then he had to push the storyline & we all know how well that went, but point being, for that one moment people marked out, literally, & showed that they thought of him as the star he was. I guess we should have specified that better
Eh. WCW's downfall really started in 98. The main event title scene was a mess until the night Goldberg won it, then he was relegated to underneath Hogan Vs The Celebrities all summer, eventually losing to Nash, which was the second BAD Starrcade turn-about in a row. So it was pretty 'fargone' before July 99. Even so, WCW probably would have been sold by AOL/Time Warner, perhaps whether it was losing money or not. Creatively, the real nail in the coffin was the Radicalz leaving
I would agree The Time Warner Warner Merger and later the AOL Merger killed WCW and Santamaria's correct, if you look back at WCW's mid cards and their Pay per view's, Thunder's, Saturday Nights, and Nitro's that best of seven between he who we do not speak of and Booker T was getting pops then Hogan and Bret vs. Piper and Savage were getting in June of '98. So the time Booker got the WCW Title in July of '00. It didn't really matter
well i thought when ddp won the belt (By the way he should of won the belt a year earlier) they could of turn things around and the next night did a 4.6 rating (there last by the way) but also later that night they turned him heel or bad guy and the next night did a 3.5 rating that the one thing you dont do with the peoples champion DDP turn him bad guy especially after 2 years and 4 months of a mega Baby Face run to get it i mean i was so disappointed. by the way best of luck you guy
I wouldn't say they didn't count, because by the time they were bought in 2001, they (Booker, Scott Steiner & Jeff Jarrett) could have all been brought in simultaneously during the InVasion angle as the leaders of WCW and I think people would have totally bought it. They may not have been the "superstar" main eventers like Goldberg or even DDP, but for WCW in 2000/2001 they were good. They just didn't get the rub from the previous regime they needed, I think.
Those three are good, but they weren't Sting, Lex Luger or Hulk Hogan. They didn't have the main event status or legitimacy to be considered main event stars, at the time.
Just to add to the poitn you guys were making about not necesarilly having to win, Bret put over Austin despite winning the match. But on the flipside when Billy Kidman beat Hogan, Hogan didn't put him over and from that point on, except for his feud with Shane Douglas, Kidman was exclusively a Cruiserweight wrestler
Right. Hogan, around that time, also lost to Mike Awesome & Vampiro, but it was done in such a way (I'm sure Hogan made sure it was this way) that it didn't put them over. Sure, they got a pinfall on Hogan, but they were on unadvertised/not-built-up throwaway matches on Nitro and most of them weren't even clean jobs anyway. To Hogan's credit, he DID do that for Goldberg & Luger at least, but as you can see, just because you pinned the guy doesn't always mean you come out looking better.
Oh come on. Did Scott Norton get a fraction of the reaction he did? Or any reaction for that matter? Was Scott Norton on any t-shirts, let alone ones that were selling like crazy? Let's keep it real here. Konnan was over huge in 98, and was over on the level, or at least damn close to the same level, of anybody else in the Wolfpack like Nash or Sting. Certainly more than Luger at that point.
sorry to butt in lol I agree, Konnan had as much support as he did terribly executed moves ie was very popular. Scott Norton had in ring quality but he wasnt over cept in the commentary box right? On a nicer note he could deliver a HELLOVA stiff powerbomb (did you see the one on Lodi on a Nitro - poor Lodi got folded in two). Brian Adams - ashamedly one of my favourite wrestlers for some reason - WAS a tag along after his week long feud with Bret petered out. Lex was so embarassing in the 'Pac
Butt in all you like, anytime anyone can add to a discussion I hope those additions are made! Anyway, the powerbomb from Norton I remember was to Chavo, heh. He powerbomb the shit out of Chavo a few times. Bryan Adams was entertaining (maybe reverse entertaining is the right wording, heh) in his own way. Actually, I think Sting was a bigger embarrassment in the Wolfpack. It just went totally against his whole character from the previous 2 years. But, it made $ at least.
well there was a powerbomb on Lodi too i remember as well as Chavo though your right. Oh hell yeh Sting was shocking - coming out smiling and high fiving the fans but it was a change i guess. Come on though Luger just had a natural awkwardness in trying to be cool - hanging around with Nash and Konnan didnt suit him while Sting just had that fonz factor that worked somewhat
Fonz factor? ha, I've never heard Sting compared to the Fonz, but ok. You're right, Luger never came across as 'hip' or 'cool', that was kind of awkward. Plus, a change is right, but not a good one imo. I just didn't like seeing (red) Crow Sting coming out smiling, screaming, catch phrasing, and high fiving fans, having fun basically, while dressed like the broody, angry Crow Sting he just was, in another color. Plus, Luger & Sting wearing nWo shirts, no matter what the color, was just dumb.
did people really want to see guys like malenko in the main event in 1998? i dont really think so - malenko would not have put 'butts in seats' which is why he was one of the great card openers in the game... Booker Benoit and Jericho and BRET, the forgotten man, were so ready in my opinion - Y2J had it all even back then
You need to rewatch the reaction to him & Jericho in the middle of the show during Slamboree 98 & tell me he would not have sold tickets. Jericho, in my opinion, never had what it takes to be a legit main eventer, BUT, he is over, and certainly was a heel then, so if you want to include Jericho as 'ready' then (which he may or may not have been - it had to have been as the chicken shit heel he played so well, to me), then you have to include Malenko there too because he was right there w/ him
Deano was over big but his character just wasnt main event material - he could wrestle but that wasnt enough in WCW. Jericho could have played a good face vs the NWO and had the in-ring skills. Eddie's a guy who i underestimated - i saw him at HH97 vs Rey and the whole place got on his back it was a masterclass in heatseeking. Booker had his own persona - the Heat sign, the spinaroonie and those massive kicks- i think had he not been jobbing to Rick Martel hed really have done some big business
Arguably that's enough - & not enough - almost anytime, heh. "wrestling" in & of itself has been emphasized & de-emphasized in various companies at various times throughout history, but anyway, I understand your point about Malenko, I just don't quite agree w/ it. Eddie ALWAYS got a reaction, yes, face or heel :) As for Booker, that time you mentioned (which was 98) was the year all those guys (Y2J, Booker, Eddie, etc.) SHOULD have been elevated. They weren't, & there's no more WCW today :(
I agree with most of what you say but i mean, Lance Storm was just as big a star in ECW as he was in WCW. IMO Storm was most likely in line for a World title run in ECW before he left, something that he never came close to in WCW
Thanks, but here we totally disagree ; In fact, I think you have it reversed! I doubt he was in line for a title run - it's possible, given how so many of their stars were leaving, which made them resort to, how shall we say, 'lesser' names like Justin Credible or Steve Corino in later years - & the only title shot he got(against Credible at Hardcore Heaven 00) was on his way out. However, right away practically Storm was challenging Booker for the belt on Nitro & people thought he might win!
The finger poke of doom is the same as HBK laying down for HHH for the European title, just a new way of droppig the belt in a major swere to the people. Also the guy on the right makes a good point, you don't have to beat someone to be a star, just the contact can work. Austin,Cena,HHH,Undertaker, Mankind, Eddie Guerrero, Benoit, were all over big time before beating the Champion & could of beaten anyone for the belt and still be over. Only Warrior ever got real over for beating Hogan.
I agree with your points, except the Warrior ; Warrior was already way, WAY over before beating Hogan. It only makes sense ; he was so over, that he was booked to beat Hogan, heh. You'd pretty much have to be way over to beat Hogan in a legit way like he or Goldberg did, no? But then, beating Hogan put them over the top, which was good :)
WCW did the same thing WWE has done before by not giving pushes. We grow tired of the same ol' ppl, but the only reason they don't suffer is b/c there is no one they have to battle in a Monday Night War like the past. Ironically, I took a hiatus from wrestling from 2000-2001. When I got back into it in '02 & caught up I was glad I missed that hot mess called "Invasion."
On a side note...it would be so nice to see a WCW version of One Night Stand-No stories, just big surprises & good matches.
No competition maybe, but a big reason they don't suffer is they've got such an established, sheep-like & sizable fanbase that provide them with a huge, and mostly consistent, source of revenue. But you're right ; WWE does the same stupid WCW did a lot of the time. Fucking sad their fans keep coming back. Consider yourself lucky to have missed the horrible "InVasion" era. And while a WCW One Night Stand would be nice, it'll also never happen so don't hold you breathe :)
WCW spent the mid 90s basically building their fanbase by signing WWF guys like a Hogan,Savage,Hart,Mean Gene,Heenan.
In the late 90s Russo came in and pushed the Benoit's,Bret Hart's etc that deviated from the system that got WCW their fan base.By the time WCW got back to the formula that got them their fans the fans were already watching WWF again.
I understand the point you're trying to make but I think you're using the wrong names. WCW from the 90s on up definitely tried (way too hard) to bring in many names from the WWF. Hogan & Savage made a difference, even if slight, but that's it until 96 w/ Hall & Nash. Those 4 definitely had an affect on WCW. The rest, not so much, esp. Bret Hart. To say Bret & Benoit deviated from the system that made their fanbase is kinda ridiculous b/c WCW had plenty of their own stars too
& Flair, Luger, The Steiners, Booker T, Jericho, Benoit, Big Show, Dusty, Nikita Koloff, Sid, Goldberg, DDP, Malenko, the Horsemen, Ron Simmons, Magnum TA, Vader, and arguably Jim Ross, Konnan, Mysterio, Eddie, Cactus Jack, Harley Race, Steamboat, Terry Funk, Muta, the Hollywood Blondes, Marc Mero, and yes, even Lance Storm. You could go on & on, heh. But they 'never made stars' :p
Lance storm was not made a star in WCW..infact he was hardly ever a star at all.
No offence just truth, WCW is given alot of credit like this, But most the time Aother company made these folks then they went to WCW..and then they were brought into WWE..and WCW for some reason gets credit.
I really don't see how you can argue against Storm being made a star in WCW. Check out New Blood Rising. He was pushed to the top real quick, holding 3 belts at once, tons of promo time, clean wins, had a t-shirt, made into a credible world title contender, a faction leader, a commissioner, and you think the truth is he wasn't a star? If you really believe WCW didn't create stars, could you please give us examples? It's funny cause I always thought WCW didn't get a lot of credit, heh
I never said WCW didn't create stars, No words in my mouth please. I just said that Storm was never made a star in WCW, because in general he was never a star, at best he was a niche wrestler who was loved by the smarks, hardely even clapped for by the average joe fan.
Ask a so so fan if they know the name lance storm, then ask if they know sabu..you'll see the difference. and those shirts never sold by the way lol
Sorry if you thought I was putting words in your mouth, but how else are we to take 'another company made these folks then they went to WCW?' I think the implication is there, heh. Anyway, I would think a 'so-so' fan would be just as likely to say Storm as they would Sabu, & I still think it's really off to say he wasn't made a star in WCW. As for the t-shirt, I saw some in the crowds then. I'm not saying it was nWo or Sting levels, heh, but I doubt it was at the end of the list so to speak
You were talking about this point in relation to Austin during this video - I reckon a good example of a guy losing heat due to not getting the belt at the right time is Samoa Joe in TNA at the moment. This time last year he was hugely over with the fans and everyone wanted to see him as champion. They dragged it out for too long, which led to the dilution of his character and his storylines. Now he will probably win the belt at Lockdown, and people arent going to care nearly as much.
I think you gave a great example. Absolutely it won't be nearly as big as deal as if he had beaten Christian at Destination X last year, when it counted. At this point it's almost like it's a bargaining. Thanks for your input, good job, another example of people not learning from the past and not pulling the trigger when it should have been
I'll never understand why Piper beat Hogan 3 times and never get the belt in WCW. For that matter, I'll never understand why Piper didn't get the heavyweight title in the WWF either. WCW imploded, and Vince Russo lit the fuse. Too many inmates running the asylum, and no clear direction.
Well, by the time Piper & Hogan fought at Starrcade 96, I think everyone knew Hogan/Sting was gonna happen in a year, so that's probably why. Just an assumption. Piper's one of those guys that probably didn't care if he got a world title or not because he was always a big star anyway. & let's be fair ; the fuse, as you call it, was lit long before Russo showed up. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts.
If you haven't already, you should see the "Ghost Tape" Piper sent to Russo & Bischoff. In short, his idea was to put the "Millionaire Club" as the managers of the "Bad Blood" (a young Hogan, Piper, Flair, etc.) vs. the "New Blood". Then ot would be youth vs. youth with the franchise names still involved. Russo knew better, and WCW went into the red.
I was interested in seeing that for a long time, but I'm real disappointed. Weird, babbles on forever like usual, but I guess it couldn't have been much worse than what they were doing at the time, but that's the point ; It was way too late for WCW by then, and even if they went all out with this idea, it would still have been the third 'young vs. old' angle in 3 years, albeit on a bigger scale & probably wouldn't have made a difference.
It would've been young vs. young with the older established names still involved to get them over. Then the older stars could fade into the background. IMO it was a good idea, and the only thing that made sense to re-establish the brand since WCW had no clue how to develop talent.
Ok, so I guess it would have transformed from young vs. old to young vs. young with old, heh, but either way, I still think it didn't matter. By the time this would have happened(2000), WCW was already about to be shopped around for sale. & WCW certainly did know how to develop talent (like Goldberg, DDP, Lance Storm and all the other names we mentioned) but they didn't put them over the top and/or eventually squashed most of them.
Where are Goldberg, DDP, and Lance Storm now? It's one thing to make a name, it's another to establish the character and brand it with longevity. And back to my point on development, this is the same company that couldn't find value in Steve Austin or Mick Foley. They couldn't even properly use Bret Hart after all they controversy to get him.
Come on, Goldberg & DDP's runs lasted just as long in WCW as Foley & Rock's did in WWF. WCW had it's share of stupidity, but come on, so has everyone else. WWF may have made Austin & Foley, but they also blew the InVasion angle, and the nWo, and Goldberg, and the cruiserweights, and the tag division, and...
It's not about mistakes, it's about developing their stars, and you need to look no further than the names you mentioned... Rock & Foley vs. Goldberg & DDP. Again, who is what and where now?
Anyway, when Bischoff left WCW was an asylum run by the inmates with no direction. Besides Bischoff's creation of the nWo and the Goldberg run, what memorable storylines did Russo create... David Arquette as champion?
Who is what & where? Well, all of them made millions & got the fuck out, so mission accomplished, eh? haha. Couldn't you say WCW was an inmate-run asylum BEFORE Bischoff left? Memorable storylines...well, by nature that doesn't necessarily mean good, heh, but I'd say Bret winning the belt at Mayhem, & Booker, Jeff Jarrett & Scott Steiner finally becoming main eventers. Plenty of bad though, heh
yeah but bret want in the mainevent scene 1998 or well most of his wcw career the only time he mainevented was the world war 3 ppv november against ddp and that was for the us title which he lost so thats wrong
Ok, I don't know the point you're trying to make ; Bret main evented 1 B-show for WCW in 98(WW3) & I'm sure a few Nitros. I hardly think that counts as a true main event run. Point being, until Russo belt him in 99 & then, consistently, headlined for the WORLD title no less(something he never contended for before thanks to Hogan probably), he never had a real run in WCW. So what's 'wrong' with what we said?
u said that that the old guys who were dancing around on the ppv mainevents forever the point is u said that he along with hogan and flair who were always in the main event scene check out 1.55-2.05 i dont get it fiirst u say brets was dancin arounf the main event scene then u say russo pushed him
Ok, I see what you mean ; I was probably just thinking of how Bret was shoehorned into matches like him & Hogan Vs. Piper & Savage at GAB 98 & stuff like that. I probably didn't mean to mention him in that part, so my mistake! He was just kinda lumped into that stuff along with guys like Giant, Scott Hall, Sting, Luger, DDP, etc. The main event scene in 98 WCW was such a mess, heh.
i think they shouldnt have fuked up at starcade 1997 have scott hall beat sting for the world title great american bash or something just to give stings title reign a little credibilty and then if u had scott hall as champ there would have been dissension in nwo as hogan is supposed to be top guy cos they needed to break nwo up correctly
You bring up three good points:Starrcade 97 was a colossal fuck up of epic proportions, heh.Scott Hall, who was SO over,probably should have gotten a main event run w/ the belt in WCW(Again,probably didn't cause of his 'demons').& lastly,the nWo never,EVER,had a proper blow off.All 4 versions(96 original,98 hollywood b/w+red wolfpack,99 Elite Wolfpack,2000)just disappeared gradually,& the way McMahon ended it in 02 was fucking garbage.
Business-wise, it did great for WCW. Everyone was way over & they sold a ton of shirts. However, I hated it because broke logic ; Sting & Luger should never have been wearing nWo shirts no matter what color they were. The nWo stood for destroying WCW. They had huge feuds with Luger & Sting! Sting, the Crow who stood alone & didn't speak, now was smiling with red paint. So I hated it in 98 but it made them a ton of $, heh.
This video looks like its from the mid-to-date '90s.
Great conversation.
PeoplesWar 2 months ago
Yay! I'm the 20,000th viewer!
Wat do I get?
MrTvtech9 4 months ago in playlist Season 1
@MrTvtech9 How's a Roundtable T-shirt sound?
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 4 months ago
@WrestlingRoundtable If I really got one that would be cool.
MrTvtech9 4 months ago
Lawrence is a very intelligent guy, but please let other people have an opinion too, man.
lostmyshoes80 9 months ago
Well I liked Konnan when he was in the Wolfpack.
Lightspeeds 1 year ago
fueding with the owner of the company right after the "montreal SJ" was just a lucky accident of timing to help put a great gimick over and make austin the star it did. guess the heel makes the face is true.
WTS1377 1 year ago
ddp and steiner were never stars in wwf
OCcrazy1 1 year ago
@OCcrazy1 ddp was bullshit in wwe
hbk2hhh 1 year ago
@hbk2hhh funny as hell thought
OCcrazy1 1 year ago
Hey Roundtable guys! History is repeating itself. Many mid-carders in WCW eventually got their push in WWE. nWo continued to unfairly book themselves along instead of Jericho, Mysterio, Guerrero or Benoit. And Ten years later: MORE OF THE SAME! You have John Cena, Triple H and Batista every year headlining Wrestlemania! Twenty years later, HBK and Taker are the main attraction of Wrestlemania! What??? There's so much talent like Kofi, R-Truth, John Morrison or Jack Swagger!
JMBitchboy 1 year ago
@JMBitchboy Yes, Undertaker and Shawn headlined WrestleMania. By the way, how were thoese matches anyway?
fundyspokerblog 1 year ago
@fundyspokerblog They were EPIC to say the least but the second one was not as good and mostly interesting due to HBK's pending retirement. I'm telling you, if Taker's streak were to end, Kane is the only man I picture to be the man for the job. If anyone else did it, it would be an insult to Shawn Michaels who lost twice but Kane has also lost twice to Undertaker and the third time would be a charm. Plus Kane is so hot right now and I would love to keep his run going.
JMBitchboy 1 year ago
@JMBitchboy I actually prefer the 2nd HBK/UT WM match rather than the first.
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 1 year ago
@WrestlingRoundtable Hahaha c'mon E. Did you like it because it was a better worked match or because you wanted to see Shawn Michaels, a wrestler you're not a fan of, retire?
JMBitchboy 1 year ago
@JMBitchboy Because it was a better worked match. Firstly, I still, still, even after signs don't point otherwise, think HBK will be back for a match someday. Secondly, I believe I've said my piece on the match during our first Radio show, but I preferred the 2nd WM HBK/UT match rather than the first because I thought the pacing was better. The first half of the first match I found rather dull comparatively.
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 1 year ago
wcw was terrible!!
ztjam01 1 year ago
I think one of the measures of a legend is how well he can put people over without lossing to them. Flair put both Sting and Steamboat even though he one. I mean look at the first Clash of Champions.
Nertrender 2 years ago
On the first 10 comments, I've seen nobody really touch on Chris Jericho's run in 98 where they tried to push him hard. I remember tuning in to watch the nWo, but a close second would be what Jericho would do with those amazing mic skills and how he played off of anyone opposing him so well. Jo-Jo Dillon, Gene Mean, Deano Machino, Ralphus and Price Maka Maka. He was ready to be one of the main guys, but the nWo storylines held him back. The same could be said for Rey Mysterio and Eddie.
Phaktor1 2 years ago
I've been looking for the right video to post this comment on and I can't find one...so I'll post it here.
Does Goldberg remind anyone of a cross between Nikita Koloff and Road Warrior Hawk or is it just my imagination?
GentileReadingList 2 years ago
9. Kevin Nash stopping Goldbergs Undefeated Streak.
10. Former WWE stars wouldn't move away from the spot light.
"WCW had the largest wrestling roster than WWE and "Original ECW" combined. WCW and ECW was the close to real wrestling and that was the two companies focus while WWE is into the Entertainment Soap Opera crap.
Chimeras101 2 years ago 8
I was a huge WCW fan and I still am even with the promotion being "DEAD". This is the top 10 reason for the death of WCW.
1. Jamie Kellner cancelling wrestling on TNT and TBS.
2. AOL Time Warner Merger and Turner losing all control.
3. WCW Creative Control
4. Kevin Nash becoming a Booker.
5. Vince Russo and Ed Ferra.
6. Eric Bischoff throwing BILLIONS of dollars around.
7. WCW not creating Stars.
8. NWO angle too long.
Chimeras101 2 years ago 8
@Chimeras101 You gotta draw a line between 1 and 2 and the rest. They were way more significant.
ak47523 9 months ago
It's really interesting that this because of passion becomes more of an almost argument (almost). Which is ok I'm not criticized my point is the show has evolved and gone from strength to strength. Loved the show then love it now.
helpmedie91111 2 years ago
I typed in to youtube the death of wcw part 1naturally so I could report the upload cough cough. Behold every other suggestion was about He that we do not speak of. For someone we are not speaking of that mother fer comes up a lot lol.
TheWrestlingLantern 2 years ago
the problem was wcw didnt have guys to make the guys like booker/benoit/saturn/konnan/vampiro look good. Guys like luger,nash,hogan, didnt have the ability to really put them over because the fans werent there to watch. It dosent matter if you do the greatest angles ever if you dont have a fan base
striker15338 2 years ago
and you cant say to me anyone in wwe at the moment other than triple h undertaker or hbk is anywhere near better than sting ,wcw ruled they beat wwe 84 weeks in a row they say they never pushed anyone wtf they pushed scott stiener , jeff jarret ,goldberg,ddp,booker t? and benoit had the strap before he left just couldn take having classics against jarret while people was better a.k.a sting hogan luger ddp goldbger couldnt draw the fans well not the comapnnys fault
lostboysfamily12315 2 years ago
That's not the reason Benoit left at all first of all, and I could name a whole bunch of people in WWE right now who are better than Sting, but again, that's just an opinion. And if I could make sense out of your terrible fucking writing I'd understand what you meant at the end, I'd say something about it, but since I don't, I won't. You ought to try that sometime.
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
mate i no for a fact sting is better than most like cena batista or orton ? hes a better in ring performer in his 50s than any of those in there 20s now? wcw made luger sting flair goldberg and ddp they had more potential than anyone in buff bagwell vampiro and lance storm and beoit and guerrero were just bitches at the time that they couldn main event when they wasnt ready for it no disresepect i love them both but we all no its true people point proven
lostboysfamily12315 2 years ago
How exactly do you know those guys you listed "couldn't main event" or "weren't ready" when they were never even given a chance to in the first place? No, point not proven, because we can barely read your shit. Sting being better than those people you listed is all an opinion anyway. Benoit & Guerrero were bitches? Maybe, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have main evented either.
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
wcw made plenty of stars ? benoit gurrero jericho wouldn of bin in wwf if wcw didnt make them first!! booker t wcw champion 5 times wwe ruin him into king booker? scott steiner awsome star had to job to test ? ddp goldberg buff bagwell jeff jarret scott steiner lance storm mike awsome rey mysterio kidman saturn jericho booker t who was made by wcw !!!! then you had sting and rick flair wcw made two greatest ever and you had nash hogan hall savage luger hennig windham so fuck eveyrone wcw ruledd
lostboysfamily12315 2 years ago
I hate to say it, but Benjamin has lost all momentum and probably will never rise about mid-card. Maybe if he is repackaged and given a ton of attention....who knows, maybe...but I don't see the WWE giving him any of that. I also think they should have done more with Benjamin and his "momma" that was the real gold standard lol
DeathAdder83 2 years ago
I think you also have to take in account house shows. It was widely spread that WCW could not fill a house show unlike WWF could at the time. It may look like a sold out crowd but how many were "sold" tickets and not seat fillers. We all know Ted Turner had deep pockets but towards then end WCW was not making the money WWF was and AOL/Time Warner pulled the plug.
Slurpee2008 2 years ago
I miss these topics :(
christalkshowrule 2 years ago
WCW Never Could'nt Compete With The WWF. Bullshit. Nitro Beat Raw In Ratings Over 70 Weeks Str8. That's Not Competing With WWF. WWF Almost Went Out Of Buisness Cause Of WCW. That's A Fact. Watch The Monday Night War DVD
TonyStress360 2 years ago
I have no idea who or what this is directed towards
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
wcw beat the wwf over 70 weeks in a row? So how many weeks in a row did wwf beat wcw from mid 98 to march 2001?
Alot more than wcw and thats a fact. Sure, wcw was awesome but lets face facts here... the wwf blew wcw out of the water from november 88 when turner bought it to march 96 then again from mid 98 to march 01.
davelpo 2 years ago
Of course WWF beat WCW more, they 'won' the 'war' too. WWF almost always had better outlets, connections, marketing, and on top of that WCW was the unwanted redheaded wrestling stepchild of the AOL/Time Warner, not given access to all(some, but not nearly all) of their synergistic options in the Turner family. WCW had hot & cold periods, however I don't think the fact they're the only company to ever topple the WWF(even momentarily) should be discounted. There are many reasons why they died
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
wcw lost the war. but they did give wwf a run for they money. i mean imagine if wcw did put the wwf out of buiness. the wrestling world would be so different right now.
TonyStress360 2 years ago
Yes, it would and in so many ways it's hard to imagine, but they did come very close in 96/97!
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
To be exact, from 11/2/98-3/26/01, Raw beat Nitro head-to-head for 122 consecutive weeks. The one week Nitro was unopposed in that time period (2/8/99), it drew a 5.7 rating, ratings fell slowly after that . The 84 consecutive weeks Nitro won head-to-head from 6/17/96-3/30/98 pales in comparison, obviously because the WWF's string of victories broke WCW's back for good. Though that Nitro string almost put the WWF out of business.
Overall it was 158 wins for Raw, 110 for Nitro, and 3 ties.
realzootd1 2 years ago
But lets not forget the uk ratings. WCW never beat the WWF even at their hottest.
davelpo 2 years ago
Well, if we want to talk foreign markets, how about WCW not capitalizing on the Canadian market when they got Bret Hart in 1997(A traditionally WWF-centric market, at least in the post-territory period). How about not utilizing their links to Japan or Mexico when they were at their hottest? They had a huge lucha roster, a relationship with New Japan, etc. WCW never really exploited these opportunities. WWE hasn't done the BEST job of it either but they're also still around, heh.
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
You're right about that. WWF did totally dominate WCW in the UK. WCW was never really big in the UK, or internationally for that matter. That may be an under-the-radar (but not major) reason why WCW slowly died, their failure to make a major impact with wrestling fans outside the U.S.
WCW actually had a German only PPV called Millennium Final that took place on 11/16/00 that drew 9,000, but it really did them no good on an international platform since they were already out of it.
realzootd1 2 years ago
That's a really interesting look at the numbers, thanks. Cool to see the 'tally' for the Monday Night wars, heh
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
I hugely prefered WWF but I didn't enjoy tuning into NItro and enjoyed some amazing mat wrestling.
clipsryan 2 years ago
wcw had a lot of 'lie downs' i grew up watchin wwf and i cant remember seeing many of them if any
Crookmeisteren 2 years ago
Unless you count Michaels/HHH for the European title, and the New Age Outlaws doing just that in a 4-way for the tag titles on Heat in 98, which started what was called on TV the 'Outlaw rule' where tag partners couldn't pin each other to win a match, heh.
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
yh ok, but wcw definitly seemed to have alot more, wwf hav a few stand out occasions, the michaels vs hhh thing for example was really a big joke and was sort of in keeping with the comedic style of dx at that point and was there way of getting one up on sgt slaughter, i personally never have seen the outlaws match
Crookmeisteren 2 years ago
WCW had a bunch - not too many actually, but they're just more famous. They did a few on TV/PPV in the Russo era, but obviously the Fingerpoke of Doom & the Jarrett/Hogan shit from Bash At the Beach 2000 are famous examples, and almost all of them were in the 'worked shoot' vain, which are always stupid, heh
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
I look at the title. Look at Wikipedia's history of the WCW title. They went from being a more wrestling focused pro wrestling platform in the early/mid 90's to an organization that was consistently betraying their viewers - bait and switch.
It wasn't just that the matches never lived up to the hype - it was that the title itself had become obsolete. They vacated it 8 times following Starrcade '97 which had been considered a nail in the coffin to the WWE at the time following Montreal.
THEECF 2 years ago
The title was barely ever defended during their hottest period, though(the build to Sting/Hogan), while Hollywood Hogan had it. Sure, it was important a few times after that(like when Goldberg won it), but in general, I don't particularly point to world title being the #1 reason why WCW lost so many viewers. It didn't help whatsoever, that's for sure, but I think WCW had much bigger problems than just the title. & Wikipedia isn't reliable, heh, esp. w/ WCW stuff.
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
imagine having dean malenko come out and out- wrestling the main event guy. even if malenko doesn't win, showing him out wrestle a guy like hogan and hogan having to cheat to win against a guy who was basically known as a cruiserweight aka a mid carder cause u needed to be a big guy to get over. doing that would have raised malenko's stock.
mangionefan1 2 years ago
Exactly. One example of millions of possibilities WCW didn't utilize to elevate their mid-card stars into main event-level megastars ala Goldberg
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
"The Wcw didnt made any stars stament" is bullshit.
Guys like DDP and Goldberg was made in WCW:
jb0609 2 years ago
WCW Didn't make stars!!! They made mid-carders! They made DDP, Goldberg, Sting and that's about it. Booker T was good in WCW. He became a STAR in WWE and that's just how I feel about it.
EasyAttack 2 years ago
Sting, DDP, Booker and Goldberg were Stars in WCW, Booker had most success in WCW.
jb0609 2 years ago
Oo whoa whoa whoa!! Let's compare:
WCW Booker T = 5x WCW world champion
WWE Booker T = 1x WWE world champion
RandomMindz 2 years ago
Yeah... but look when those five title reigns came. Like, when I am talking to people about Booker T, most of his memorable stuff comes from his WWE days. In WCW, I remember his match with Bret Hart, His 7 match series with he we do not speak of, and him winning the belt the FIRST time, and when he called Hulk Hogan the N-Word. In WWE, he has SEVERAL memorable moments and was able to do more mass media outside of wrestling.
EasyAttack 2 years ago
If you noticed, I mentioned DDP and Goldberg. I give credit where it is due. Lance Storm was NEVER a star. When I think of stars I think of guys like The Rock, RKO, Jericho, HBK, Booker T, Macho Man, Hogan... guys like that. All of the guys in WCW were just there. Jericho was popular with the wrestling heads in WCW... He became a house hold name in WWE!!! There is no way anyone can dispute that.
EasyAttack 2 years ago
Lance Storm was slowly getting pushed in WCW-at one point he had all the belts except the World title. He would have gotten a Randy Orton-type treatement too if WCW hadn't gotten bankrupt. Same thing with Vampiro, Mike Sanders, Mike Awesome and a lot of new guys WCW had in mind to make stars.
skinwalkerxxx 2 years ago
Of course you could dispute Jericho being a household name. Since when? ha
Anyway, just because you're not a main eventer doesn't mean you're not a 'star.' WWF turned practically their entire midcard in to cartoon characters...whoops, I mean stars, in the 80s. Guys like Nikolai Volkoff, Koko B. Ware, Hillbilly Jim, etc. They weren't main eventing PPVs, but with WWF's marketing, they were able to sell them to their audience. Lance Storm was at least at this level in his WCW run.
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
I just do not think that WCW put fourth a valiant effort to make stars out of guys is all I am saying. If you want to dispute Jericho being a household name that is fine but all I am saying is that no one knew who he was in WCW. Now, Jericho is working with the Groundlings and is always doing those VH1 shows. People know who Jericho is outside of wrestling; a lot of people.
EasyAttack 2 years ago
There's no disputing that WCW didn't make many main event level crossover stars in their later years(Goldberg, DDP) as they did in their earlier years(Sting, Flair, etc.), and while I would argue that Jericho's WCW run was a huge factor in his WWE signing in the first place, & question just how many people really know Jericho outside of wrestling, heh, you do make the point that many of his outside-of-wrestling activities did happen post-WCW, & he's probably not alone.
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
I did watch the video again, and in the context of what you are saying, I understand it a little bit better. I use to be a big WWE head, and Rick Rude actually had a better WCW career than he did a WWE career, but he was alread a star by the time he got there. Hell, they even made Davey Boy Smith a top level guy in WCW, but even he was a WWF guy. WCW did not respect their home grown wrestlers the way they should have.
EasyAttack 2 years ago
Thanks for re-watching. It's still kind of a muddy area so to speak when discussing what exactly constitutes a 'star,' but when mentioning Rude & Bulldog, keep in mind that they were heavily involved in - at that point - Sting, Sid, Vader & Flair, all of whom were WCW originals. That's not to say WCW never used ex-WWF wrestlers as crutches, which they obviously did to a fault, but at the same time still had homegrown guys. At least until Hogan ruined it in 94 ;)
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
LOL! Okay, I will give you Vader, Sting, & Flair. Sid, however, I remember him being a Tag Team wrestler & a member of the Four Horseman... I think he had one match with Sting for the belt, but Sting made light work out of him. Then I remember him going 2 WWE and being in main event fueds with the likes of Warrior, Hogan, etc. Wasn't he the best man at Macho's wedding? lol, anyway, when he went BACK to WCW he was a Main eventer but it was like they needed WWE to validate him.
EasyAttack 2 years ago
With all that said though, I will finally concede that stars WERE in fact made in WCW. I guess, my mind goes straight all the bull crap, especially the post Hogan crap.. Sid however, it's hard to say... the stuff that sticks in my head about him comes from WWE, ie. the Wrestlemania 8 press conference ("Now Jack Tunney what you did was BOGUS!!"). He did have at least a decent WCW run so maybe he was made in WCW... Man, I am actually torn.
EasyAttack 2 years ago
"...More bogus than anything you've ever pulled off!" ha, I remember. But Sid was main eventing against Sting for the title before the WWF run, mind you. Of course, the perception to many people, including a lot of the wrestlers, was that you 'go to the WWF to become a star,' which if what Hogan advised Giant/Big Show to do. But again, there's plenty of wrestlers from the NWA/WCW era who were either big stars before the WWF or never did go. Dusty Rhodes for one, Sting for another, to name two
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
@WrestlingRoundtable hogan advised giant/big show to go to the wwe im not sure where u got this from but its not true he went because he was world champ and a big name in wcw but eric wouldnt give him a raise
809Ollie 1 year ago
And I agree that you do not have to be a main eventer to be star, but people at least have to know who you are and by the time Lance Storm got popular in WCW many people stopped watching. Lance Storm was great. but not enough people saw his greatness. It's like being known as an average guy your whole life, then meeting Halle Berry on a plane and havign sex with her. Only for the plane to crash, and you both dying. Yeah, you had sex with Halle Berry, but you can't brag about it.
EasyAttack 2 years ago
The Halle Berry-sex-on-a-crashing-plane analogy is a perfect comparison to WCW's stars in their last few years :) However, keep in mind that despite WCW's downfall from their former heights just a few short years before, their ratings were A. Still the highest on TNT B. Still usually at least twice as much as TNA's current record high, so that is a considerable amount of people still exposed to their stars. The real counterpoint to that is how many MORE people were watching WWF at the time
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
WCW was down to around a 2 rating for Nitro and all their other shows rated so bad they were axed when WCW died, so WCW was not beating any thing in the ratings then. Wrestling fans do not understand how television works and that ratings are minor compared to advertising revenue. Dog shows and golf do no ratings, but are on because they produce advertising revenue. Wrestling has never produced great advertising revenue and then WCW blew the roof off on production costs so it was a fiscal mess
MRobert21 1 year ago
Ratings are minor? So advertisers buy network time to pitch their products to nonexistent audiences? If WCW had still been pulling down monster ratings after the AOL/TW merger, the ad dollars would have followed, and it wouldn't have mattered what little twerp executive thought of having wrestling on their network. If WCW was a hot commodity and AOL/TW didn't want it, you can bet someone else definitely would have bought it for a steal and found a willing network.
lsudolemite 1 year ago
Is the guy in the middle the dude in big lewbowski?The little guy who asks lebowski what he dose when he goes to visit maud lebowski.
leif55 3 years ago
I hope you're at least talking about The Jesus, cause nobody fucks with The Jesus!
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
I think what fans/marks/smarks mean when WCW never made stars I believe what they mean by that is WCW never pushed anyone towards the WCW Title at least not like they did for Goldberg. I'm not saying WWE is not guilty of this either through their history. TNA is notorious for it quite frankly. I'm not a DDP mark but come on, DDP was over and he should had a run in 1998 with the WCW Title somewhere. Where? Don't ask me I'm not a guest booker. My point is he was over in '98 and '97.
Sweetguy9009 3 years ago
the man in the middle is a wrestling-talk- GODDD *pause* IFFFF YOU SMELLLLLLL WHAT THE GUY ON THE RIGHT THAT NO LONGER HAS HAIR LIKE THAT IS COOKIN
redfury0156 3 years ago
Ha, thanks
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
Lance Storm was bigger in WCW than he was in ECW? MAybe a bit, but i don't think the difference was big enough for you guys to comment on
Divoz2008 3 years ago
A bit? I'd say an arena full of thousands of Storm shirts & Canadian flags cheering on the guy who held three belts of the second biggest promotion in America all on cable TV within weeks of his debut & being a believable world title contender, as was the visible case at the New Blood Rising ppv in August of 2000, is quite more significant than being a midcarder(albeit a 'name' midcarder with a rep of being a good worker, but midcarder nonetheless) in an indy.
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
Comment removed
Divoz2008 3 years ago
you have your opinion , i have mine. Why must you come on here, and act like ecw was just another independent promotion? just because you werent into it? and then you quote year 2000 wcw? bahahahhahaahah. cmon man, really? get over your marking out for wcw and post some sensible comments. It seems to me that you think the only things "right" with wrestling is what you enkjoyed the most, and refurse to care about what other people liked.
Divoz2008 3 years ago
and IMO that is why this show never really succeded to the point that it COULD have. there is an opinion for ya. Its wayyyy to close minded. i never liked wcw. why? because it was what it was. it was a load of bullshit. you see, you cant deal with ppl having a different opinion then you. every comment on every video, you feel the need to defend what YOU think. why dont you try listening to ppl for once
Divoz2008 3 years ago
If the show was close-minded, I wouldn't even allow comments. How can you say I'M close minded when insult me for merely saying ECW was smaller than WCW, as if it wasn't? You flip out about your precious indy like it's your penis size. I know, defending what I think is a silly idea, like I need reasons or something, but I do listen, and what I'm listening to is a guy who feels the need to insult me in fanboy anger & in the process sound like the biggest hypocrite I've heard in a while.
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
I don't think The Fingerpoke of Doom killed WCW but it sure didn't help WCW.
Sweetguy9009 2 years ago
Quite the opposite. The nWo was back together. It was a wise business decision.
skinwalkerxxx 2 years ago
Oh, don't get me wrong I loved the nWo Elite. I'm just saying as far as when they did it, it probably would have made sense somewhere else, don't ask me where, I'm just saying Goldberg just lost the WCW Title wouldn't it have made more sense to do the swerve, at the Souled Out Pay Per View rather than when WCW could have won the ratings war for the first time since September '98?
Sweetguy9009 2 years ago
You would have had the finger-poke done during a pay-per-view? Better to do it on free tv.
Me and friends loved when it happened live but looking back I see only three problems in the execution:
1. Tony should have shut his trap about Foley winning the belt on RAW
2. They did the swerve too close to Souled Out. It should have happened earlier so it could have been build up with a mad Goldberg going after the nWo at that event.
3. wrong oponant to take revenge. Should have been HH not SH.
skinwalkerxxx 2 years ago
I agree, I don't know about Hogan taking Razor's place. What you're suggesting about Goldberg going after the WCW Title and the nWo is pretty much what Kevin Nash wanted to do when he took over the booking in Feb. of '99. Goldberg going through Bret Hart, Luger, Bagwell, Steiner, Nash, Hall, and finally at the end of the year win the WCW Title back, but because of Hogan's contract that couldn't be done. Nash wanted Hogan to be like a GM of WCW and his contract wouldn't allow that cash wise.
Sweetguy9009 2 years ago
Ok, why must you come on here & act like ECW was more than what it was? It was the most successful indy maybe ever, but indy nonetheless. I was way in to ECW, but numbers are numbers. You can laugh at year 2000 WCW all you want, but even at that time frame, their ratings were way higher than ECW's by a wide margin. You play to a bigger audience with a bigger push in a bigger venue, that would just seem to me that makes you a bigger star. So maybe YOU are the one who should stop marking out.
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
While you guys may consider ECW the most sucessful indy ever, it never seems to get enough credit, without ECW you wouldnt have had Mck Foley getting to where he did, you wouldnt have the fast paced style of wrestling that you had duing the late 90s and 2000s ECW did alot to change the wrestling buissness, and helped make stars, look at the Dudley Boyz, look at RVD. ECW helped to get the WCW and WWF to that higher level
GuardianRebelDave12 2 years ago 2
I think the wisest thing said in this video is two things... 1998 was probably the biggest year in the industry period overall... WWE was finally coming back and starting the Attitude Era. Nitro was still kicking major butt at that point and the Original ECW probably had their biggest year in 1998 and the second wise statement is "for every Goldberg beating Hogan in '98 there should've been five more of those" Don't think it would've happened but it should've.
Sweetguy9009 2 years ago
I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I actually thought that ECW should not have been included in the invasion angle just because in my opinion they are completely irrelavent to the monday night wars. However, Lance Storm was never a star, ever!! Not even in WCW. Yes, he was known to more people but a star? Maybe your definition of star is different from mine but when I think of stars I think of guys like Macho Man, Rock, Austin, Sting, Hogan, Orton, Piper, Jericho, etc... Not guys like
EasyAttack 2 years ago
Lance Storm. I went to a few events WCW had in 2000 and they were giving a lot of those canadian flags and shit out for free. Jericho was popular in WCW, yes, but he became a star in WWE. Same with Eddy Guerrero and the guy we do not speak of. WCW did not create any stars outside of DDP, Sting, Goldberg and maybe a few others. Guys would get popular in WCW, then go to WWE and turn into stars, hell, Icons! Did WCW have talent? Yes. they had a ton. Unfortunately most of them became stars in WWE.
EasyAttack 2 years ago
When these guys lke Jericho and Eddy left WCW they became more well known because WWF is the Titan of pro wrestling. They say you've made it once you wrestle at a Wrestlemania. Yes those guys eventually won the heavyweight title but not before losing matches to WWE's stars. They weren't pushed the way fans wanted to see them pushed.
-Rodney, Wrestling Roundtable
GrapplingKings 2 years ago
That's bullshit & you know it ; Sting's been a big star but never been in WWE, let alone wrestled at WrestleMania. And even if they hadn't, Ric Flair & Goldberg would have still been as big stars as they were had they never went to WWE at some point.
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 2 years ago
I agree that in order to be a star, a worker needs to rub shoulders with the current stars. There are a load of exceptions though. Billy Gunn was in a few programmes with the Rock, and he went nowhere. The British Bulldog had a few title shots on PPV in 1995/6, as well as an extended feud with the Rock when he came back in 1999.
Robbiedbee 3 years ago
A lot of these wrestlers first became stars in Japan, but became huge stars in WCW.
Mistertbones 3 years ago 2
fully agree stars like benoit, malenko, eddie g were major stars in japan and learned their trade there just the fact that they were nver on tv in american they werent considered big stars.
nickthewelshlad 3 years ago
Even if they were stars in Japan, and they were, none of them were quite Stan Hansen or Hogan levels there either(ECW didn't have the audience national TV did also), so I'd have to somewhat disagree with nickthewelshlad on the words 'major stars' there, but nonetheless, I think everyone agrees they didn't become 'names' or (what's that word McMahon's drilled in to everyone's heads?) 'superstars' until Bischoff put them on the national stage, on American cable tv.
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
DDP got a "HUGE-STAR-POP" from WWE fans???
I'm one of the biggest DDP marks out there, but POP, WWE, and DDP just don't go together...He came in with a lame gimmick, then THE UNDERTAKER basically man-handled him and it was downhill from there...
EyeLuvGaeSekzz 3 years ago 2
If you're one of the biggest DDP 'marks' then you should remember his debut better. As soon as he took off the mask, people popped HUGE. Go back & watch it. People forgot, momentarily, about the stupid stalker angle & put up the diamond cutter sign. Then he had to push the storyline & we all know how well that went, but point being, for that one moment people marked out, literally, & showed that they thought of him as the star he was. I guess we should have specified that better
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
From July 1999 I though it was too far gone to be wwf compertition because that month there were Randy Savage and Hogan the belt
ecwecwecw1 3 years ago
Eh. WCW's downfall really started in 98. The main event title scene was a mess until the night Goldberg won it, then he was relegated to underneath Hogan Vs The Celebrities all summer, eventually losing to Nash, which was the second BAD Starrcade turn-about in a row. So it was pretty 'fargone' before July 99. Even so, WCW probably would have been sold by AOL/Time Warner, perhaps whether it was losing money or not. Creatively, the real nail in the coffin was the Radicalz leaving
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
I would agree The Time Warner Warner Merger and later the AOL Merger killed WCW and Santamaria's correct, if you look back at WCW's mid cards and their Pay per view's, Thunder's, Saturday Nights, and Nitro's that best of seven between he who we do not speak of and Booker T was getting pops then Hogan and Bret vs. Piper and Savage were getting in June of '98. So the time Booker got the WCW Title in July of '00. It didn't really matter
Sweetguy9009 3 years ago
well i thought when ddp won the belt (By the way he should of won the belt a year earlier) they could of turn things around and the next night did a 4.6 rating (there last by the way) but also later that night they turned him heel or bad guy and the next night did a 3.5 rating that the one thing you dont do with the peoples champion DDP turn him bad guy especially after 2 years and 4 months of a mega Baby Face run to get it i mean i was so disappointed. by the way best of luck you guy
ecwecwecw1 3 years ago
You're right that DDP won the title way too late. And 99 was such a mess, heh. Thanks!
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
I agree DDP and Goldberg counted were as Booker T and Jeff and Scott don't count because no one cared at that point
ecwecwecw1 3 years ago
I wouldn't say they didn't count, because by the time they were bought in 2001, they (Booker, Scott Steiner & Jeff Jarrett) could have all been brought in simultaneously during the InVasion angle as the leaders of WCW and I think people would have totally bought it. They may not have been the "superstar" main eventers like Goldberg or even DDP, but for WCW in 2000/2001 they were good. They just didn't get the rub from the previous regime they needed, I think.
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
Those three are good, but they weren't Sting, Lex Luger or Hulk Hogan. They didn't have the main event status or legitimacy to be considered main event stars, at the time.
darkpatriot85 3 years ago
Just to add to the poitn you guys were making about not necesarilly having to win, Bret put over Austin despite winning the match. But on the flipside when Billy Kidman beat Hogan, Hogan didn't put him over and from that point on, except for his feud with Shane Douglas, Kidman was exclusively a Cruiserweight wrestler
safik2000 3 years ago
Right. Hogan, around that time, also lost to Mike Awesome & Vampiro, but it was done in such a way (I'm sure Hogan made sure it was this way) that it didn't put them over. Sure, they got a pinfall on Hogan, but they were on unadvertised/not-built-up throwaway matches on Nitro and most of them weren't even clean jobs anyway. To Hogan's credit, he DID do that for Goldberg & Luger at least, but as you can see, just because you pinned the guy doesn't always mean you come out looking better.
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
Konnan was never viewed as a legitimate star when he was with the NWO. He was a tag-along....just like Scott Norton.
jaytrain5 3 years ago
Oh come on. Did Scott Norton get a fraction of the reaction he did? Or any reaction for that matter? Was Scott Norton on any t-shirts, let alone ones that were selling like crazy? Let's keep it real here. Konnan was over huge in 98, and was over on the level, or at least damn close to the same level, of anybody else in the Wolfpack like Nash or Sting. Certainly more than Luger at that point.
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
sorry to butt in lol I agree, Konnan had as much support as he did terribly executed moves ie was very popular. Scott Norton had in ring quality but he wasnt over cept in the commentary box right? On a nicer note he could deliver a HELLOVA stiff powerbomb (did you see the one on Lodi on a Nitro - poor Lodi got folded in two). Brian Adams - ashamedly one of my favourite wrestlers for some reason - WAS a tag along after his week long feud with Bret petered out. Lex was so embarassing in the 'Pac
WorstThereEverWillBe 3 years ago
Butt in all you like, anytime anyone can add to a discussion I hope those additions are made! Anyway, the powerbomb from Norton I remember was to Chavo, heh. He powerbomb the shit out of Chavo a few times. Bryan Adams was entertaining (maybe reverse entertaining is the right wording, heh) in his own way. Actually, I think Sting was a bigger embarrassment in the Wolfpack. It just went totally against his whole character from the previous 2 years. But, it made $ at least.
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
well there was a powerbomb on Lodi too i remember as well as Chavo though your right. Oh hell yeh Sting was shocking - coming out smiling and high fiving the fans but it was a change i guess. Come on though Luger just had a natural awkwardness in trying to be cool - hanging around with Nash and Konnan didnt suit him while Sting just had that fonz factor that worked somewhat
WorstThereEverWillBe 3 years ago
Fonz factor? ha, I've never heard Sting compared to the Fonz, but ok. You're right, Luger never came across as 'hip' or 'cool', that was kind of awkward. Plus, a change is right, but not a good one imo. I just didn't like seeing (red) Crow Sting coming out smiling, screaming, catch phrasing, and high fiving fans, having fun basically, while dressed like the broody, angry Crow Sting he just was, in another color. Plus, Luger & Sting wearing nWo shirts, no matter what the color, was just dumb.
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
almost evry star in ecw whent to wcw and then to wwe
sexylsantrreeeff 3 years ago
Not quite. Most ECW main eventers & midcarders either went to WCW or WWF, not just to WCW and then to WWF.
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
did people really want to see guys like malenko in the main event in 1998? i dont really think so - malenko would not have put 'butts in seats' which is why he was one of the great card openers in the game... Booker Benoit and Jericho and BRET, the forgotten man, were so ready in my opinion - Y2J had it all even back then
WorstThereEverWillBe 3 years ago
You need to rewatch the reaction to him & Jericho in the middle of the show during Slamboree 98 & tell me he would not have sold tickets. Jericho, in my opinion, never had what it takes to be a legit main eventer, BUT, he is over, and certainly was a heel then, so if you want to include Jericho as 'ready' then (which he may or may not have been - it had to have been as the chicken shit heel he played so well, to me), then you have to include Malenko there too because he was right there w/ him
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
Deano was over big but his character just wasnt main event material - he could wrestle but that wasnt enough in WCW. Jericho could have played a good face vs the NWO and had the in-ring skills. Eddie's a guy who i underestimated - i saw him at HH97 vs Rey and the whole place got on his back it was a masterclass in heatseeking. Booker had his own persona - the Heat sign, the spinaroonie and those massive kicks- i think had he not been jobbing to Rick Martel hed really have done some big business
WorstThereEverWillBe 3 years ago
Arguably that's enough - & not enough - almost anytime, heh. "wrestling" in & of itself has been emphasized & de-emphasized in various companies at various times throughout history, but anyway, I understand your point about Malenko, I just don't quite agree w/ it. Eddie ALWAYS got a reaction, yes, face or heel :) As for Booker, that time you mentioned (which was 98) was the year all those guys (Y2J, Booker, Eddie, etc.) SHOULD have been elevated. They weren't, & there's no more WCW today :(
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
your videos are the best, even better than the wwe round a table discussions
cannabisboi 3 years ago
That's an incredible compliment and makes us feel like we accomplished what we set out to do :) So thank you very much
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
I agree with most of what you say but i mean, Lance Storm was just as big a star in ECW as he was in WCW. IMO Storm was most likely in line for a World title run in ECW before he left, something that he never came close to in WCW
divoz2007 3 years ago
Thanks, but here we totally disagree ; In fact, I think you have it reversed! I doubt he was in line for a title run - it's possible, given how so many of their stars were leaving, which made them resort to, how shall we say, 'lesser' names like Justin Credible or Steve Corino in later years - & the only title shot he got(against Credible at Hardcore Heaven 00) was on his way out. However, right away practically Storm was challenging Booker for the belt on Nitro & people thought he might win!
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
The finger poke of doom is the same as HBK laying down for HHH for the European title, just a new way of droppig the belt in a major swere to the people. Also the guy on the right makes a good point, you don't have to beat someone to be a star, just the contact can work. Austin,Cena,HHH,Undertaker, Mankind, Eddie Guerrero, Benoit, were all over big time before beating the Champion & could of beaten anyone for the belt and still be over. Only Warrior ever got real over for beating Hogan.
DamianBCollins 3 years ago
I agree with your points, except the Warrior ; Warrior was already way, WAY over before beating Hogan. It only makes sense ; he was so over, that he was booked to beat Hogan, heh. You'd pretty much have to be way over to beat Hogan in a legit way like he or Goldberg did, no? But then, beating Hogan put them over the top, which was good :)
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
WCW did the same thing WWE has done before by not giving pushes. We grow tired of the same ol' ppl, but the only reason they don't suffer is b/c there is no one they have to battle in a Monday Night War like the past. Ironically, I took a hiatus from wrestling from 2000-2001. When I got back into it in '02 & caught up I was glad I missed that hot mess called "Invasion."
On a side note...it would be so nice to see a WCW version of One Night Stand-No stories, just big surprises & good matches.
gabynum1919 3 years ago
No competition maybe, but a big reason they don't suffer is they've got such an established, sheep-like & sizable fanbase that provide them with a huge, and mostly consistent, source of revenue. But you're right ; WWE does the same stupid WCW did a lot of the time. Fucking sad their fans keep coming back. Consider yourself lucky to have missed the horrible "InVasion" era. And while a WCW One Night Stand would be nice, it'll also never happen so don't hold you breathe :)
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
I loved the fingerpoke of doom
sdean21 3 years ago
Wow, one of the few! Nice to see there are others :)
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
WCW spent the mid 90s basically building their fanbase by signing WWF guys like a Hogan,Savage,Hart,Mean Gene,Heenan.
In the late 90s Russo came in and pushed the Benoit's,Bret Hart's etc that deviated from the system that got WCW their fan base.By the time WCW got back to the formula that got them their fans the fans were already watching WWF again.
Quajaboy 3 years ago
I understand the point you're trying to make but I think you're using the wrong names. WCW from the 90s on up definitely tried (way too hard) to bring in many names from the WWF. Hogan & Savage made a difference, even if slight, but that's it until 96 w/ Hall & Nash. Those 4 definitely had an affect on WCW. The rest, not so much, esp. Bret Hart. To say Bret & Benoit deviated from the system that made their fanbase is kinda ridiculous b/c WCW had plenty of their own stars too
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
i hope hes jokin too lol...
jason42072000 3 years ago
WCW created Sting at least.
SquallsBlade 3 years ago
& Flair, Luger, The Steiners, Booker T, Jericho, Benoit, Big Show, Dusty, Nikita Koloff, Sid, Goldberg, DDP, Malenko, the Horsemen, Ron Simmons, Magnum TA, Vader, and arguably Jim Ross, Konnan, Mysterio, Eddie, Cactus Jack, Harley Race, Steamboat, Terry Funk, Muta, the Hollywood Blondes, Marc Mero, and yes, even Lance Storm. You could go on & on, heh. But they 'never made stars' :p
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
lol where to start with the faults in that comment
adammorley619 3 years ago
Well start then
-E
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
Ok WCW did'nt create Luger, Dusty, Cactus Jack and the Steiners stars WWF(E) did and ECW made Cactus Jack a star and Japan made Vader a star
enjoyed the video though
adammorley619 3 years ago
Ok, are you joking? Because everything you said is so ridiculously untrue you gotta be messing with me
-E, Wrestling Roundtable
WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
my god you are a fucking retard to say the least the wwf created the steiners lol ecw made cactus jack a star lol
bringbackpridefc 3 years ago
Lance storm was not made a star in WCW..infact he was hardly ever a star at all.
No offence just truth, WCW is given alot of credit like this, But most the time Aother company made these folks then they went to WCW..and then they were brought into WWE..and WCW for some reason gets credit.
RCoehrs 3 years ago
I really don't see how you can argue against Storm being made a star in WCW. Check out New Blood Rising. He was pushed to the top real quick, holding 3 belts at once, tons of promo time, clean wins, had a t-shirt, made into a credible world title contender, a faction leader, a commissioner, and you think the truth is he wasn't a star? If you really believe WCW didn't create stars, could you please give us examples? It's funny cause I always thought WCW didn't get a lot of credit, heh
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WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
I never said WCW didn't create stars, No words in my mouth please. I just said that Storm was never made a star in WCW, because in general he was never a star, at best he was a niche wrestler who was loved by the smarks, hardely even clapped for by the average joe fan.
Ask a so so fan if they know the name lance storm, then ask if they know sabu..you'll see the difference. and those shirts never sold by the way lol
RCoehrs 3 years ago
Sorry if you thought I was putting words in your mouth, but how else are we to take 'another company made these folks then they went to WCW?' I think the implication is there, heh. Anyway, I would think a 'so-so' fan would be just as likely to say Storm as they would Sabu, & I still think it's really off to say he wasn't made a star in WCW. As for the t-shirt, I saw some in the crowds then. I'm not saying it was nWo or Sting levels, heh, but I doubt it was at the end of the list so to speak
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WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
You were talking about this point in relation to Austin during this video - I reckon a good example of a guy losing heat due to not getting the belt at the right time is Samoa Joe in TNA at the moment. This time last year he was hugely over with the fans and everyone wanted to see him as champion. They dragged it out for too long, which led to the dilution of his character and his storylines. Now he will probably win the belt at Lockdown, and people arent going to care nearly as much.
HanleyIsWatchingYou 3 years ago
I think you gave a great example. Absolutely it won't be nearly as big as deal as if he had beaten Christian at Destination X last year, when it counted. At this point it's almost like it's a bargaining. Thanks for your input, good job, another example of people not learning from the past and not pulling the trigger when it should have been
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WrestlingRoundtable 3 years ago
I'll never understand why Piper beat Hogan 3 times and never get the belt in WCW. For that matter, I'll never understand why Piper didn't get the heavyweight title in the WWF either. WCW imploded, and Vince Russo lit the fuse. Too many inmates running the asylum, and no clear direction.
VinnyV444 4 years ago
Well, by the time Piper & Hogan fought at Starrcade 96, I think everyone knew Hogan/Sting was gonna happen in a year, so that's probably why. Just an assumption. Piper's one of those guys that probably didn't care if he got a world title or not because he was always a big star anyway. & let's be fair ; the fuse, as you call it, was lit long before Russo showed up. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts.
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WrestlingRoundtable 4 years ago
If you haven't already, you should see the "Ghost Tape" Piper sent to Russo & Bischoff. In short, his idea was to put the "Millionaire Club" as the managers of the "Bad Blood" (a young Hogan, Piper, Flair, etc.) vs. the "New Blood". Then ot would be youth vs. youth with the franchise names still involved. Russo knew better, and WCW went into the red.
VinnyV444 4 years ago
I was interested in seeing that for a long time, but I'm real disappointed. Weird, babbles on forever like usual, but I guess it couldn't have been much worse than what they were doing at the time, but that's the point ; It was way too late for WCW by then, and even if they went all out with this idea, it would still have been the third 'young vs. old' angle in 3 years, albeit on a bigger scale & probably wouldn't have made a difference.
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WrestlingRoundtable 4 years ago
It would've been young vs. young with the older established names still involved to get them over. Then the older stars could fade into the background. IMO it was a good idea, and the only thing that made sense to re-establish the brand since WCW had no clue how to develop talent.
VinnyV444 4 years ago
Ok, so I guess it would have transformed from young vs. old to young vs. young with old, heh, but either way, I still think it didn't matter. By the time this would have happened(2000), WCW was already about to be shopped around for sale. & WCW certainly did know how to develop talent (like Goldberg, DDP, Lance Storm and all the other names we mentioned) but they didn't put them over the top and/or eventually squashed most of them.
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WrestlingRoundtable 4 years ago
Where are Goldberg, DDP, and Lance Storm now? It's one thing to make a name, it's another to establish the character and brand it with longevity. And back to my point on development, this is the same company that couldn't find value in Steve Austin or Mick Foley. They couldn't even properly use Bret Hart after all they controversy to get him.
VinnyV444 4 years ago
Come on, Goldberg & DDP's runs lasted just as long in WCW as Foley & Rock's did in WWF. WCW had it's share of stupidity, but come on, so has everyone else. WWF may have made Austin & Foley, but they also blew the InVasion angle, and the nWo, and Goldberg, and the cruiserweights, and the tag division, and...
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WrestlingRoundtable 4 years ago
It's not about mistakes, it's about developing their stars, and you need to look no further than the names you mentioned... Rock & Foley vs. Goldberg & DDP. Again, who is what and where now?
Anyway, when Bischoff left WCW was an asylum run by the inmates with no direction. Besides Bischoff's creation of the nWo and the Goldberg run, what memorable storylines did Russo create... David Arquette as champion?
VinnyV444 4 years ago
Who is what & where? Well, all of them made millions & got the fuck out, so mission accomplished, eh? haha. Couldn't you say WCW was an inmate-run asylum BEFORE Bischoff left? Memorable storylines...well, by nature that doesn't necessarily mean good, heh, but I'd say Bret winning the belt at Mayhem, & Booker, Jeff Jarrett & Scott Steiner finally becoming main eventers. Plenty of bad though, heh
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WrestlingRoundtable 4 years ago
yeah but bret want in the mainevent scene 1998 or well most of his wcw career the only time he mainevented was the world war 3 ppv november against ddp and that was for the us title which he lost so thats wrong
rochmeone 4 years ago
Ok, I don't know the point you're trying to make ; Bret main evented 1 B-show for WCW in 98(WW3) & I'm sure a few Nitros. I hardly think that counts as a true main event run. Point being, until Russo belt him in 99 & then, consistently, headlined for the WORLD title no less(something he never contended for before thanks to Hogan probably), he never had a real run in WCW. So what's 'wrong' with what we said?
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WrestlingRoundtable 4 years ago
u said that that the old guys who were dancing around on the ppv mainevents forever the point is u said that he along with hogan and flair who were always in the main event scene check out 1.55-2.05 i dont get it fiirst u say brets was dancin arounf the main event scene then u say russo pushed him
rochmeone 4 years ago
maybe u just made a little mistake im just picky at little things
rochmeone 4 years ago
Ok, I see what you mean ; I was probably just thinking of how Bret was shoehorned into matches like him & Hogan Vs. Piper & Savage at GAB 98 & stuff like that. I probably didn't mean to mention him in that part, so my mistake! He was just kinda lumped into that stuff along with guys like Giant, Scott Hall, Sting, Luger, DDP, etc. The main event scene in 98 WCW was such a mess, heh.
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WrestlingRoundtable 4 years ago
i think they shouldnt have fuked up at starcade 1997 have scott hall beat sting for the world title great american bash or something just to give stings title reign a little credibilty and then if u had scott hall as champ there would have been dissension in nwo as hogan is supposed to be top guy cos they needed to break nwo up correctly
rochmeone 4 years ago
You bring up three good points:Starrcade 97 was a colossal fuck up of epic proportions, heh.Scott Hall, who was SO over,probably should have gotten a main event run w/ the belt in WCW(Again,probably didn't cause of his 'demons').& lastly,the nWo never,EVER,had a proper blow off.All 4 versions(96 original,98 hollywood b/w+red wolfpack,99 Elite Wolfpack,2000)just disappeared gradually,& the way McMahon ended it in 02 was fucking garbage.
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WrestlingRoundtable 4 years ago
what did u think about the nwo wolfpac in 1998
rochmeone 4 years ago
Business-wise, it did great for WCW. Everyone was way over & they sold a ton of shirts. However, I hated it because broke logic ; Sting & Luger should never have been wearing nWo shirts no matter what color they were. The nWo stood for destroying WCW. They had huge feuds with Luger & Sting! Sting, the Crow who stood alone & didn't speak, now was smiling with red paint. So I hated it in 98 but it made them a ton of $, heh.
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WrestlingRoundtable 4 years ago