if you dont exept this writting even non-biblical sources you dont exept scientific and forensic proofs of Shroud of Turin, than even I say to you it is obvious that Earth is not flat, you will still argue that it is... try on youtube BBC DOC - Shroud of Turin - New Evidence
even Celsus a 2nd century Greek philosopher and opponent of Early Christianity never has written that Jesus is myth but he made an attack on Christianity as belief that Jesus is Son of
God, Celsus has written that Jesus mother was not a virgin but that his father was a roman soldier and Celsus has written that Jesus did not die on cross and his post resurrection wounds were not real....so no historical document with statement that Jesus was not a real historical person...
Dr Dirk Jongkind, a Research Fellow at Tyndale House, pieces together the earliest manuscript evidence for the New Testament and shows how it tells the story of Jesus' trial before Pilate. Find out more at our website
Dr Peter Williams and Dr David Instone-Brewer look at the Munich Talmud, which contains traditional Jewish teaching, and discover how even the deleted text provides evidence for Jesus' crucifixion!
"On the eve of Passover they hung Jeshu the Nazarine. And the herald went out before him for 40 days [saying]: “Jeshu the Nazarine will go out to be stoned for sorcery and misleading and enticing Israel. Any who knows [anything] in his defence must come and declare concerning him.”
Dr Peter Williams and Dr David Instone-Brewer look at the Munich Talmud, which contains traditional Jewish teaching, and discover how even the deleted text provides evidence for Jesus' crucifixion!
"On the eve of Passover they hung Jeshu the Nazarine. And the herald went out before him for 40 days [saying]: “Jeshu the Nazarine will go out to be stoned for sorcery and misleading and enticing Israel. Any who knows [anything] in his defence must come and declare concerning him.”
after which it was their custom to separate, and then meet again to partake of food, but ordinary and innocent kind.
One of the most important Romans historians is Tacitus. In 115 A.D. he recorded Nero’s persecution of the Christians, in the process of which he wrote the following:
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators,
Pliny the Younger, Emperor of Bythynia in northwestern Turkey, writing to Emperor Trajan in 112 A.D. writes:They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang an anthem to Christ as God, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to commit any wicked deed, but to abstain from all fraud, theft and adultery, never to break their word, or deny a trust when called upon to honor it;
@MrKlemenko That is about "Christians" not Jesus. We know the Christianity movement existed, but Jesus and the apostle are just stories maybe even loosely based on real people.
Gospels are historical document (from 1st century papirus) as long as someone proofs it different with sources from that time, there are another written papers about Christ and christians (I am sorry for you that you are blind and you connect everything with fraud due to your personal unbelief in Jesus) :
@MrKlemenko Sorry, but the Bible Gospels (or any other) are not considered historical documents. They contain myths, similitudes and yes, some historical facts.
how can someone in spite of archaeological, written sources, traditional and non traditional (discovered recently) proofs doubts in life and mission of Jesus?
youtube look at: Uncovering Bethany beyond the Jordan
@MrKlemenko There is nothing written outside of the gospels that prove the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. The gospels are even written decades after the "apparent" events and are clearly based on midrash and myth.
In all of Paul's writings, he never gives any indication that he knows of a Jesus of Nazareth that was recently living on earth. Paul's Christ Jesus lives on a mystical/mythical realm.
Jesus of Nazareth exist only in the gospels. There are no contemporary historical accounts of him.
@MrKlemenko Because everything you mentioned isn't proof that Jesus existed. There is no proof :/ but there is lots of concepts in the stories of the bible that are in the many other religions of the time that preceded Christianity. Early Christian writers knew it too, except they called it "diabolical mimicry" As in the devil knew the future and copied the bible, before the bible existed. LOL
how can someone in spite of arhaeological, written sources, traditional and non traditional (discovered recently) proofs doubts in life ant mission of Jesus?
youtube loook at: Uncovering Bethany beyond the Jordan
reading about scientific research of Petrus Soons shroud of Turin researcher about the shroud actually change not just my philosophical point of view on life and word we live in but I feel that there is no contradiction between my spiritual belief and technical knowledge about the universe...Petrus is developing new scientific approach to explain something we can not see and detect with today known methodology and this is holographic quantum theory - somekind of information of matter
but about Josephus, he knew Greek for sure and greek version of his text is probably older then arab text... and arab text was for sure changed according to Muslims in 6th or 7th century AD. I am not educated to judge for theological implications but I am as an architect more concentrated in technical point of view (reconstruction of Jesus face and body, his teaching and social and spatial environment...) and what I saw in archaelogical and forensic findings connected to him amazed me much
I think that skepticism is based on unbelief in statements or facts what I think is more negative connotation, but of course dont be naive or believe in something that institutions say, we must searching for truth eveywhere and even we find it, it is just one part of the truth. Even scientific law is not absolutely right for whole human evolution because our intellect and consciousness are limited...I sad nothing new...
@MrKlemenko read the different versions of the testimonium flavianum, the greek and the arab ones. compare, and see differences, check out for possible theological implications, and possible motives. the greek one says all every christian wants to hear, the arab version only calls him a wise man with followers, that allegued to see him alive after his crucifixion (no mention to pilate). So which one was Josephus? and also, check who josefus says was the father of jesus and james, joseph?
so why is it impossible that Josephus Flavius (who was not historian as nowadays scientists with nowadays methodological way of writing but he was a jew) wouldnt admit his miracles and that he is Messiah actually in that time it meat a person anointed with oil massenger of God (but also prophets, high priest and king were anointed) Messiah didnt mean in that time Son of God, but voice upon Yeshua when he was baptized by John sad that.
youtube search: Is Josephus' account of Jesus a forgery?
@MrKlemenko I already saw that video, apparently you didnt, or were too focused on finding a comforting version. Have you read the testimonium flavianum? it says Jesus was the christ. There is no way Josefus could have call him that, because Josefus thought the christ was some emperor (whose name i cant remember). I encorage you not to rely on authorities, and check the evidence yourself, read and compare, and be skeptic, skepticism wont lead you to deny jesus, but to truth, whatever it may be.
@MrKlemenko I never said EVERY ancient source that mentions Jesus is an interpolation. That's a strawman. I said specifically Josefus. The problem with other references is the date and source. I have never claimed (maybe i need to clarify) that Jesus didnt exist, but that the evidence is bogus or unreliable.
@MrKlemenko just saw the 'archeological evidence'. Man, it is evidence of early christianity, not of jesus christ. None of those elements relates to Jesus: the empire state is real, but king kong was not. Do you know what i mean? You have tales about a guy named Jesus, and certain references in the text, some of those were real others not, and evidence for Pilate is evidence for Pilate, you still have to show that he ruled around 1st century, and more, that Jesus was crucified under him.
The video was pathetic, those guys are blind biblical inerrantists, whose objectivity is nonexistent. Jesus could have existed, and made miracles and resurrected, but these guys' methodology is not the way to show it, all they ever do is to say "the evidence is compelling and conclusive, we have scripture and extrabiblical sources" but they never bother with any serious historical exegesis or analysis. I welcome argumenst from theists when they are sound historical, not this crap.
is it really possible that so many ancient sources about Yeshua are just later interpolations, I dont think so... Interesting jewish Munich talmud talks about his conviction to death and sorcery, misleading of israel people, so jews then even thay didnt believe that he is Son of God witnessed some extraordinary events around him...
If you are asking did Yeshua of Nazareth really exist, you can get not without forensic and archaeological facts on shroud of turin, results are so overwhelming even for non believers that they change people and their lives...
(look at youtube search: Interview: Barrie Schwortz on the Shroud of Turin - Part 2/3 - Cameron Versluis)
Who really wrote original gospels and when? What kind of meaning maybe has been lost between translation to Greek and other languages and when this texts were written? Last few years some researchers found parts of texts that are from 1st AD (try on youtube Search results for Experts' Evidence for Jesus' Crucifixion and Experts' Evidence for Jesus' Trial), on what bases were his miracles and empty tomb (resurrection)? Why scientists cant explain how turin shroud was created etc...
for any historical person we didnt see or have scientific proof we can ask Did he really exist? But for Yeshua so many conflicts and 2000 years passed by that original gospels, original non biblical texts has been destroyed. From Munich Talmud the only jewish talmud survived popes edict in 15th century when ancient jewish texts in Europe were burnt (because anticatholic view), it is clear that Yeshua Nazarene and his dead with death was described in ancient talmuds from jewish point of view
mention of Yeshua, James and christians of Josephus Flavius in History of the Jewish people is about person Yeshua Nazarene as Christ who "for on the third day he appeared to them alive".Your opinion that it is later christian interpolation was popular in 19th century when scolars were dubious about everything religious, but today many scolars believe that this are original Josephus texts (possible changes in some phrases like "they believe he was messiah" but there is no proof for that change)
you told me nothing new about dead sea scrools, I just want to say hebrew torah or christian bible of old testament are the same in text (only some words or phrases are written there in other way) as there were 2200 years ago, of course modern science and archaeology are known only around last 150 years and are much more accurate as ancient but, historical quotations about events and persons are limited on what they knew and believe (and it proofs that some people believed in Yeshua as today )
@MrKlemenko absolutely right. People believed in Jeshua, but did they know him? was that Jeshua an actual person or a deity? because messianic groups of the first century offer a wide variety of possibilities here. The only early source of christianity we have are paul's epistles, and paul never claims to have met jesus, or have been told by the apostles that they knew him. we now assume that the disciples were in direct contact with him because the gospels say it. But does peter, does paul?
@MrKlemenko Some people belived in krishna before and now. Did he exist? There is only one passage in the epistles, only one, that mentions Jesus as an actual person: 1st corinthians 15. How convenient: an entire creed, an assessment of the later christian doctrine and dogmas. A passage that conflicts with Galatians, and that some argue might be a later interpolation. So the only, the only reference to Jesus as a person in early christian writings is a doubtfull passage.
it goes for real historical person Yeshua and what is important is that if it would be archeological findings of some other person (for example burial shroud of Ceasar) scolars would say its a major discovery and they would get high titles but because it goes for Jesus and christianity, atheist science is afraid of truth !!! Satan try to deceive human mind with illusion that there is no proof for Christ, God and hope for humanity, but this is a great Lie
as historical source like dead sea scrools show there was in the bible no meaningful interpolations, so Josephus an other historical mentions of Christ and Christians from 1st century AD are historical valid sources as long as other historical source from the past (not now) brings other facts not ideological and atheist kind of nowadays "scolars". As is shown in more thet 150 000 hours of research of Turin Shroud and Sudarium and other archeological sites as Garden tomb... it goes for real...
@MrKlemenko the dead sea scrolls are JUST parts of the bible, and dont include the gospels. the bible is not one single book but a collection of books. and josefus was not talking about jesus the nazarean. also, ancient historians were not even close in their accounts as modern historians, ancient ones were harmonizers and legitimizers, today we dont want any hypothesis to be true, we just examine the evidence. before, they had no method, and they considered any text as reliable. thumbs down
of course our science is based on scepticism not on belief...so there must exist other independent historical sources...look this one (from other side of human belief who "hang him" because they saw miracles thay didnt understand , but even than they didnt belive that this is made by God) try on search Munich talmud
some scolars believe that this is interpolation Jesus the Messiah but they believed that all old testament bible (isaiah, pirced...virginity of Mary and more than 300 prophesies which were fullfiled by Yeshua) are "instruments" of christian monks in middle ages, but Great Isaiah Scrool and other Dead sea scrools show different picture...there was no interpolation...as you talked about letters from Ceasar and his coins...think there is Jesus image on shroud with coins on his eyes from 26AD
@MrKlemenko "Dead sea scrools show different picture...there was no interpolation". What are you talking about, what do the dead see scrolls have to do with Josefus? the coins were not about Ceasar but about Alexander (although i think ceasar must be in the face of coins too). Regarding those images of Jesus: give me a reference, because you are claiming the existence of things that NO OTHER scholar or historian, NOT EVEN CHRISTIAN APOLOGISTS, have talked about.
"in one way his image is imprinted also in our DNA (consciousness) and when we listen to his natural voice we change our information or hologram in DNA" Man, watch what you say. You just blew away any credibility talking this pseudoscience crap.
actually face or image of Jesus -Yeshua is a mistery, its not just "historical person" who lived 2000 years ago but is incarnation of pure Gods soul in human DNA, so in one way his image is imprinted also in our DNA (consciousness) and when we listen to his natural voice we change our information or hologram in DNA and this information stays the same even human body die...
there is more ancient books texts not just from bible but also from roman writers, jewish talmud (Munich talmud), Josephus Flavius, that no historical person even Ceasar or Alexander The Great are not more "historical real" than Jesus -Yeshua
@MrKlemenko roman writers? check the date. Josephus? interpolation: it calls jesus 'the messiah', josephus didnt write it because he thought some emperor was actually the messiah; also, it says, jesus the brother of james, the sons of some guy not joseph. Regarding Alexander and Ceasar: you have letters written by Ceasar's own hand, you have argheology (statues and political texts), and for alexander you have coins with his face on them. Do you have anything like this for jesus?
Even if Jesus wrote an autobiography himself people would still question that.And even if the Romans signed and notarized it even then they would still question it.So actualy any History can be questioned for that matter.There is actualy more written about Jesus than anybody else at that time so he must have existed.Even the jews wrote about him and hated him you would figure they would have just pretended he did not exist and saying the miricles he did were of the devil either.He existed 100%
@sirdelrio They wrote that he would burn in hot escrement,They were quite aware who he was.They don't deney He existed,Either do muslims.They just disagree who he wasPeople tend to try to forget when they murder somebody then tend not to bring up the subject matter.I tell you Jesus scares the hell out of you people you don't even wan't Him to exist at all.
@korzon who were aware? who? and i'm not afraid of jesus. why would i. he seemed to be a nice guy, that would even love me if i was his enemy. I find the character admirable, sublime in ocassions, but not a superior moral teacher, and of course not a god. Saying muslims accept his existence is not guarantee of anything, they are scripture cultists too, they have never examined the subject skeptically. how do you know FOR SURE that jesus existed. please show us.
@sirdelrio He is pretty poular and many books were written about Him and 2000 years later still the most poular Dude,phoneys are expossed while they are pececuted.Nobody at the time who did write about Him denied He did what He did if you don't believe Him to be the Son of GOD then that is you're problem.A hasedic Jew told me they all belive in Jesus they said He was a radical and those healings he did were of the devil.And in their own texts about Him they make it clear they knew Him,Crucified
@korzon many books written about him. ok, give me a couple examples of those books (i assume they are cotemporary to him). I dont care whether everybody believes or thinks he existed, i need those who say it to back up their assertions with evidence or historical arguments. claiming the existence of books doesnt make those books real, i need references, titles, authors (if possible). Otherwise you are repeating gossip or engaging into wishfull thinking. Show me the evidence.
@sirdelrio The Jews wrote plenty of books on Jesus and how he would boil in escrement in hell.And by a Heseidic Jew telling me this is all the proof I need that they themselves knew He existed.I will give you sources no problem but don't go canceling them out of evidence becuase they are written by jews.And also the muslims wrote in their koran about Him as well.They certainly don't agree He was who He claimed to be but none the less they all admit He was real.
@korzon i'd welcome those references of the jews. and they would be of value as long as they were CONTEMPORARY of the time of jesus, because it would be based in eyewitnesses. decades or centuries later dont count (the legend would have been already in circulation). The quran doesnt count, it is centuries after the fact.
@sirdelrio Well usualy people listen to what people say first then they write it down.And the Bible wasn't written as fiction it is based upon a fact that you simply disagree with.Jesus was real you just need to accept that.And you can't because if you had the inkling if He was you would be ashamed.Those who deny me to other men,I will deny them unto my Father in Heaven.
@korzon I dont reject the existence on jesus on any wish, i used to be a catholic, and even being an agnostic i still accepted his existence, but it was the examination of the evidence and the arguments of scholars of both sides (or all sides) what lead me to conclude that his existence is not that stablished. And how do you know ALL the bible is history, or which parts, because i'm pretty sure the earth wasnt created in 6 days, or that adam and eve were the first humans ever.
@korzon tell me something, why are there contemporary novels written around the time of jesus (and before!), talk about sons of gods being born of virgins, beign child prodigies, that performed miralcles, were executed, escaped death, made postmortem appearances to skeptic disciples and vanished into inmortality? Why does the life of Apollonius of Tyana appear just exactly as jesus?
@korzon And i dont care if Jesus said that. I consider christianity a moral abomination, a self contradictory proposition, and a cult of death. If jesus appeared here to me right now, i would no longer deny his existence, the supernatural or god's existence, but i would still not be a christian, because it's an obscene doctrine, contrary to what is better for humanity, what has proven to be of actual benefit, instead of the fairy tales of guilt and self-loathing of christianity.
@sirdelrio If He did not exist at all they would have written nothing about Him and would have called Hima fraud for the miricles he did,But they did not deney the miricals for they seen them with their own eyes so instead they called Him a false messiah and said satan gave Him this power.A people so dead set against Him yet they had no problem adding him to their talmud.People don't follow non existant people or write about them for that matter this is common sense.Chines wrote of him too.
@korzon just because a book mentions a character doesnt mean the character existed. Don quixote? spiderman? there are even books about historical figures that contain fictional material. And regarding the talmud, man, that's like 300 years after the supposed time of jesus. jews were not dealing with a historical figure but with a growing cult (the christians). they didnt know whether he existed or not, all they knew was that christians were talking about a guy jesus.
also, you are reaching waaay to far from what the evidence and scholars say about the talmud. the talmud talks about christian traditions, the christian sect and their believes, the talmud writers have no reference or time proximity to jesus to have had any eyewitnesses. they are just contradicting the christians, just like today one religion denies the others. poor arguments. i'm willing to listen to your material, but please let it be of some value and accuracy.
@sirdelrio I will do my own investigational work here.The guy existed you just have to accept that.And there are even more books in the vatican that you have never seen.Spiderman in 2000 years won't even be remembered.And Josephus wrote plenty of things confirming a Jesus and people followed him.It is one thing to be in only a book and a nother to have actualy walked around the Jews knew of Him the Muslims did too.Even His enemies the pharasies hated him and wrote of Him.Give it up already.
@korzon i dont have to give up until you proof what you assert. just asserting something doesnt make it true. you say he existed, and are sure about it, eventhough you dont have arguments at hand other than assertions based on claimed facts you ignore. What other things did Josefus write about Jesus other than the 'testimonium flavianum', please show me, because i'm dead sure there's nothing more. I dont care if spiderman is forgotten, santa claus is in everyone's memory.
No credable historian would agree with this. In simply human terms alone, without the faith element of the ressurection, to say Jesus Christ didn't even exist contradicts our entire history - He is the centre of history, BC and AD. There are far more first hand sources for Jesus Christ than any of the best known historical sources such as Alexander The Great. To say He doesn't exist is to deny the entire existance of every other historical figure.Even secular historians will conceed to this.
@lousten27 "There are far more first hand sources for Jesus Christ than any of the best known historical sources such as Alexander The Great"
Excuse me?!?! Although Alexander might not be the best example, there are far more and better sources for the majority of historical figures. Mark and Luke do no count as eyewitness. Paul says almost nothing about the person Jesus. Further, we have not evidence that Matthew and John were even written by the apostles.
@lousten27 you have coins with the face of Alexander. You have autographed letters of Julio Ceasar. "He is the centre of history, BC and AD", you could use the same argument for santa claus because our christmass celebrates him. BC and AD where established centuries after the allegued time of Jesus. We dont have first hand sources about him. Give me an example. Did paul know jesus? did peter write those epistles? did apostles write the gospels? did a witness see him praying in gethsemani?
To doubt the authenticity source of The Bible is puzzling, too - all the scrolls match and forgery wouldn't have been possible, prophecies have been forfilled from the old testament if you do the research... so keen to go on about mayans this, 2012 that, but look at the Bible prophecies and what compares? Again, on pure human arguament, to doubt the authenticity of Bible transcripts is putting doubts on everything ever recorded that we feel genuine.
No they don't! There are "more differences in the manuscripts than there are words in the new testament". There are many, many differences. That is what the so-called "majority text" is about. It takes the text that is in the majority of the manuscripts and assumes it is most likely to be correct. Any claim that "all the scrolls match" is utter nonsense and easily proven to be wrong.
@lousten27 "prophecies have been forfilled from the old testament"
Any time stories are written after the fact, you can invent something in an attempt to fulfill a prophecy. The contradictory, and historically inaccurate birth narratives of Jesus are good examples. Further, many "prophecies" were either misinterpreted by Christians writers or they simply got it wrong. The best example is the "virgin birth". It was neither prophetic, nor did it talk about a "virgin".
@lousten27 "to doubt the authenticity of Bible transcripts is putting doubts on everything ever recorded that we feel genuine."
Again nonsense. While scholars might be in agreement about the historicity of Jesus, they aren't about the bible as a whole. Further, they are **not** "transcripts" (...facepalm... ) but where writtern *decades* after the fact by people who were not eyewitnesses. PLEASE read something about historiography before you post that kind of nonsense again!
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open your spiritual eyes
THE SHROUD OF TURIN- New Evidence 2011
on google: Former FBI lab technician: Shroud of Turin authentic “beyond a reasonable doubt”
and
on youtube: The Silent Witness - Forensic Analysis
MrKlemenko 2 months ago
Comment removed
MrKlemenko 2 months ago
if you dont exept this writting even non-biblical sources you dont exept scientific and forensic proofs of Shroud of Turin, than even I say to you it is obvious that Earth is not flat, you will still argue that it is... try on youtube BBC DOC - Shroud of Turin - New Evidence
MrKlemenko 2 months ago
even Celsus a 2nd century Greek philosopher and opponent of Early Christianity never has written that Jesus is myth but he made an attack on Christianity as belief that Jesus is Son of
God, Celsus has written that Jesus mother was not a virgin but that his father was a roman soldier and Celsus has written that Jesus did not die on cross and his post resurrection wounds were not real....so no historical document with statement that Jesus was not a real historical person...
MrKlemenko 2 months ago
listen to youtube: Josephus and Jesus - Textual Reliability
Dr John DIckson investigates the reliability of Jewish historian Josephus' mentions of Jesus.
MrKlemenko 2 months ago
Dr Dirk Jongkind, a Research Fellow at Tyndale House, pieces together the earliest manuscript evidence for the New Testament and shows how it tells the story of Jesus' trial before Pilate. Find out more at our website
MrKlemenko 2 months ago
” But no-one came to his defence so they hung him on the Eve of Passover."
MrKlemenko 2 months ago
Dr Peter Williams and Dr David Instone-Brewer look at the Munich Talmud, which contains traditional Jewish teaching, and discover how even the deleted text provides evidence for Jesus' crucifixion!
"On the eve of Passover they hung Jeshu the Nazarine. And the herald went out before him for 40 days [saying]: “Jeshu the Nazarine will go out to be stoned for sorcery and misleading and enticing Israel. Any who knows [anything] in his defence must come and declare concerning him.”
MrKlemenko 2 months ago
Dr Peter Williams and Dr David Instone-Brewer look at the Munich Talmud, which contains traditional Jewish teaching, and discover how even the deleted text provides evidence for Jesus' crucifixion!
"On the eve of Passover they hung Jeshu the Nazarine. And the herald went out before him for 40 days [saying]: “Jeshu the Nazarine will go out to be stoned for sorcery and misleading and enticing Israel. Any who knows [anything] in his defence must come and declare concerning him.”
MrKlemenko 2 months ago
Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, . . . but even in Rome.
MrKlemenko 2 months ago
after which it was their custom to separate, and then meet again to partake of food, but ordinary and innocent kind.
One of the most important Romans historians is Tacitus. In 115 A.D. he recorded Nero’s persecution of the Christians, in the process of which he wrote the following:
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators,
MrKlemenko 2 months ago
Pliny the Younger, Emperor of Bythynia in northwestern Turkey, writing to Emperor Trajan in 112 A.D. writes:They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang an anthem to Christ as God, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to commit any wicked deed, but to abstain from all fraud, theft and adultery, never to break their word, or deny a trust when called upon to honor it;
MrKlemenko 2 months ago
@MrKlemenko That is about "Christians" not Jesus. We know the Christianity movement existed, but Jesus and the apostle are just stories maybe even loosely based on real people.
ibsd 2 months ago
Gospels are historical document (from 1st century papirus) as long as someone proofs it different with sources from that time, there are another written papers about Christ and christians (I am sorry for you that you are blind and you connect everything with fraud due to your personal unbelief in Jesus) :
MrKlemenko 2 months ago
@MrKlemenko Sorry, but the Bible Gospels (or any other) are not considered historical documents. They contain myths, similitudes and yes, some historical facts.
Dzonrid 2 months ago
how can someone in spite of archaeological, written sources, traditional and non traditional (discovered recently) proofs doubts in life and mission of Jesus?
youtube look at: Uncovering Bethany beyond the Jordan
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
@MrKlemenko There is nothing written outside of the gospels that prove the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. The gospels are even written decades after the "apparent" events and are clearly based on midrash and myth.
In all of Paul's writings, he never gives any indication that he knows of a Jesus of Nazareth that was recently living on earth. Paul's Christ Jesus lives on a mystical/mythical realm.
Jesus of Nazareth exist only in the gospels. There are no contemporary historical accounts of him.
ninjamojo711 2 months ago
@MrKlemenko Because everything you mentioned isn't proof that Jesus existed. There is no proof :/ but there is lots of concepts in the stories of the bible that are in the many other religions of the time that preceded Christianity. Early Christian writers knew it too, except they called it "diabolical mimicry" As in the devil knew the future and copied the bible, before the bible existed. LOL
ibsd 2 months ago
Comment removed
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
how can someone in spite of arhaeological, written sources, traditional and non traditional (discovered recently) proofs doubts in life ant mission of Jesus?
youtube loook at: Uncovering Bethany beyond the Jordan
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
reading about scientific research of Petrus Soons shroud of Turin researcher about the shroud actually change not just my philosophical point of view on life and word we live in but I feel that there is no contradiction between my spiritual belief and technical knowledge about the universe...Petrus is developing new scientific approach to explain something we can not see and detect with today known methodology and this is holographic quantum theory - somekind of information of matter
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
@MrKlemenko The Shroud is 14th Century fraud.
ninjamojo711 2 months ago
but about Josephus, he knew Greek for sure and greek version of his text is probably older then arab text... and arab text was for sure changed according to Muslims in 6th or 7th century AD. I am not educated to judge for theological implications but I am as an architect more concentrated in technical point of view (reconstruction of Jesus face and body, his teaching and social and spatial environment...) and what I saw in archaelogical and forensic findings connected to him amazed me much
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
@MrKlemenko The passage in Josephus is clearly a fraud and fake. All honest scholars will agree to that.
Ask yourself, why fraud? Why was there a need to create fake proof of the existence of Jesus?
I know the answer.
ninjamojo711 2 months ago
I think that skepticism is based on unbelief in statements or facts what I think is more negative connotation, but of course dont be naive or believe in something that institutions say, we must searching for truth eveywhere and even we find it, it is just one part of the truth. Even scientific law is not absolutely right for whole human evolution because our intellect and consciousness are limited...I sad nothing new...
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
The Real Jesus: Myth #1 on youtube is good documentary
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
@MrKlemenko read the different versions of the testimonium flavianum, the greek and the arab ones. compare, and see differences, check out for possible theological implications, and possible motives. the greek one says all every christian wants to hear, the arab version only calls him a wise man with followers, that allegued to see him alive after his crucifixion (no mention to pilate). So which one was Josephus? and also, check who josefus says was the father of jesus and james, joseph?
sirdelrio 5 months ago in playlist 04 Historicity of Jesus
so why is it impossible that Josephus Flavius (who was not historian as nowadays scientists with nowadays methodological way of writing but he was a jew) wouldnt admit his miracles and that he is Messiah actually in that time it meat a person anointed with oil massenger of God (but also prophets, high priest and king were anointed) Messiah didnt mean in that time Son of God, but voice upon Yeshua when he was baptized by John sad that.
youtube search: Is Josephus' account of Jesus a forgery?
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
@MrKlemenko I already saw that video, apparently you didnt, or were too focused on finding a comforting version. Have you read the testimonium flavianum? it says Jesus was the christ. There is no way Josefus could have call him that, because Josefus thought the christ was some emperor (whose name i cant remember). I encorage you not to rely on authorities, and check the evidence yourself, read and compare, and be skeptic, skepticism wont lead you to deny jesus, but to truth, whatever it may be.
sirdelrio 5 months ago in playlist 04 Historicity of Jesus
@MrKlemenko I never said EVERY ancient source that mentions Jesus is an interpolation. That's a strawman. I said specifically Josefus. The problem with other references is the date and source. I have never claimed (maybe i need to clarify) that Jesus didnt exist, but that the evidence is bogus or unreliable.
sirdelrio 5 months ago in playlist 04 Historicity of Jesus
@MrKlemenko just saw the 'archeological evidence'. Man, it is evidence of early christianity, not of jesus christ. None of those elements relates to Jesus: the empire state is real, but king kong was not. Do you know what i mean? You have tales about a guy named Jesus, and certain references in the text, some of those were real others not, and evidence for Pilate is evidence for Pilate, you still have to show that he ruled around 1st century, and more, that Jesus was crucified under him.
sirdelrio 5 months ago in playlist 04 Historicity of Jesus
The video was pathetic, those guys are blind biblical inerrantists, whose objectivity is nonexistent. Jesus could have existed, and made miracles and resurrected, but these guys' methodology is not the way to show it, all they ever do is to say "the evidence is compelling and conclusive, we have scripture and extrabiblical sources" but they never bother with any serious historical exegesis or analysis. I welcome argumenst from theists when they are sound historical, not this crap.
sirdelrio 5 months ago in playlist 04 Historicity of Jesus
is it really possible that so many ancient sources about Yeshua are just later interpolations, I dont think so... Interesting jewish Munich talmud talks about his conviction to death and sorcery, misleading of israel people, so jews then even thay didnt believe that he is Son of God witnessed some extraordinary events around him...
youtube search: Historical Jesus? - Josephus
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
try this: youtube search: Archaeological evidence for Jesus Christ
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
If you are asking did Yeshua of Nazareth really exist, you can get not without forensic and archaeological facts on shroud of turin, results are so overwhelming even for non believers that they change people and their lives...
(look at youtube search: Interview: Barrie Schwortz on the Shroud of Turin - Part 2/3 - Cameron Versluis)
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
Who really wrote original gospels and when? What kind of meaning maybe has been lost between translation to Greek and other languages and when this texts were written? Last few years some researchers found parts of texts that are from 1st AD (try on youtube Search results for Experts' Evidence for Jesus' Crucifixion and Experts' Evidence for Jesus' Trial), on what bases were his miracles and empty tomb (resurrection)? Why scientists cant explain how turin shroud was created etc...
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
for any historical person we didnt see or have scientific proof we can ask Did he really exist? But for Yeshua so many conflicts and 2000 years passed by that original gospels, original non biblical texts has been destroyed. From Munich Talmud the only jewish talmud survived popes edict in 15th century when ancient jewish texts in Europe were burnt (because anticatholic view), it is clear that Yeshua Nazarene and his dead with death was described in ancient talmuds from jewish point of view
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
mention of Yeshua, James and christians of Josephus Flavius in History of the Jewish people is about person Yeshua Nazarene as Christ who "for on the third day he appeared to them alive".Your opinion that it is later christian interpolation was popular in 19th century when scolars were dubious about everything religious, but today many scolars believe that this are original Josephus texts (possible changes in some phrases like "they believe he was messiah" but there is no proof for that change)
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
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MrKlemenko 5 months ago
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MrKlemenko 5 months ago
you told me nothing new about dead sea scrools, I just want to say hebrew torah or christian bible of old testament are the same in text (only some words or phrases are written there in other way) as there were 2200 years ago, of course modern science and archaeology are known only around last 150 years and are much more accurate as ancient but, historical quotations about events and persons are limited on what they knew and believe (and it proofs that some people believed in Yeshua as today )
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
@MrKlemenko absolutely right. People believed in Jeshua, but did they know him? was that Jeshua an actual person or a deity? because messianic groups of the first century offer a wide variety of possibilities here. The only early source of christianity we have are paul's epistles, and paul never claims to have met jesus, or have been told by the apostles that they knew him. we now assume that the disciples were in direct contact with him because the gospels say it. But does peter, does paul?
sirdelrio 5 months ago
@MrKlemenko Some people belived in krishna before and now. Did he exist? There is only one passage in the epistles, only one, that mentions Jesus as an actual person: 1st corinthians 15. How convenient: an entire creed, an assessment of the later christian doctrine and dogmas. A passage that conflicts with Galatians, and that some argue might be a later interpolation. So the only, the only reference to Jesus as a person in early christian writings is a doubtfull passage.
sirdelrio 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
it goes for real historical person Yeshua and what is important is that if it would be archeological findings of some other person (for example burial shroud of Ceasar) scolars would say its a major discovery and they would get high titles but because it goes for Jesus and christianity, atheist science is afraid of truth !!! Satan try to deceive human mind with illusion that there is no proof for Christ, God and hope for humanity, but this is a great Lie
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
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MrKlemenko 5 months ago
as historical source like dead sea scrools show there was in the bible no meaningful interpolations, so Josephus an other historical mentions of Christ and Christians from 1st century AD are historical valid sources as long as other historical source from the past (not now) brings other facts not ideological and atheist kind of nowadays "scolars". As is shown in more thet 150 000 hours of research of Turin Shroud and Sudarium and other archeological sites as Garden tomb... it goes for real...
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
@MrKlemenko the dead sea scrolls are JUST parts of the bible, and dont include the gospels. the bible is not one single book but a collection of books. and josefus was not talking about jesus the nazarean. also, ancient historians were not even close in their accounts as modern historians, ancient ones were harmonizers and legitimizers, today we dont want any hypothesis to be true, we just examine the evidence. before, they had no method, and they considered any text as reliable. thumbs down
sirdelrio 5 months ago
of course our science is based on scepticism not on belief...so there must exist other independent historical sources...look this one (from other side of human belief who "hang him" because they saw miracles thay didnt understand , but even than they didnt belive that this is made by God) try on search Munich talmud
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
some scolars believe that this is interpolation Jesus the Messiah but they believed that all old testament bible (isaiah, pirced...virginity of Mary and more than 300 prophesies which were fullfiled by Yeshua) are "instruments" of christian monks in middle ages, but Great Isaiah Scrool and other Dead sea scrools show different picture...there was no interpolation...as you talked about letters from Ceasar and his coins...think there is Jesus image on shroud with coins on his eyes from 26AD
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
@MrKlemenko "Dead sea scrools show different picture...there was no interpolation". What are you talking about, what do the dead see scrolls have to do with Josefus? the coins were not about Ceasar but about Alexander (although i think ceasar must be in the face of coins too). Regarding those images of Jesus: give me a reference, because you are claiming the existence of things that NO OTHER scholar or historian, NOT EVEN CHRISTIAN APOLOGISTS, have talked about.
sirdelrio 5 months ago
"in one way his image is imprinted also in our DNA (consciousness) and when we listen to his natural voice we change our information or hologram in DNA" Man, watch what you say. You just blew away any credibility talking this pseudoscience crap.
sirdelrio 5 months ago
actually face or image of Jesus -Yeshua is a mistery, its not just "historical person" who lived 2000 years ago but is incarnation of pure Gods soul in human DNA, so in one way his image is imprinted also in our DNA (consciousness) and when we listen to his natural voice we change our information or hologram in DNA and this information stays the same even human body die...
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
there is more ancient books texts not just from bible but also from roman writers, jewish talmud (Munich talmud), Josephus Flavius, that no historical person even Ceasar or Alexander The Great are not more "historical real" than Jesus -Yeshua
MrKlemenko 5 months ago
@MrKlemenko roman writers? check the date. Josephus? interpolation: it calls jesus 'the messiah', josephus didnt write it because he thought some emperor was actually the messiah; also, it says, jesus the brother of james, the sons of some guy not joseph. Regarding Alexander and Ceasar: you have letters written by Ceasar's own hand, you have argheology (statues and political texts), and for alexander you have coins with his face on them. Do you have anything like this for jesus?
sirdelrio 5 months ago in playlist 04 Historicity of Jesus
Even if Jesus wrote an autobiography himself people would still question that.And even if the Romans signed and notarized it even then they would still question it.So actualy any History can be questioned for that matter.There is actualy more written about Jesus than anybody else at that time so he must have existed.Even the jews wrote about him and hated him you would figure they would have just pretended he did not exist and saying the miricles he did were of the devil either.He existed 100%
korzon 5 months ago
@korzon "Even the jews wrote about him". Such as?
sirdelrio 5 months ago
@sirdelrio They wrote that he would burn in hot escrement,They were quite aware who he was.They don't deney He existed,Either do muslims.They just disagree who he wasPeople tend to try to forget when they murder somebody then tend not to bring up the subject matter.I tell you Jesus scares the hell out of you people you don't even wan't Him to exist at all.
korzon 5 months ago
@korzon who were aware? who? and i'm not afraid of jesus. why would i. he seemed to be a nice guy, that would even love me if i was his enemy. I find the character admirable, sublime in ocassions, but not a superior moral teacher, and of course not a god. Saying muslims accept his existence is not guarantee of anything, they are scripture cultists too, they have never examined the subject skeptically. how do you know FOR SURE that jesus existed. please show us.
sirdelrio 5 months ago
@sirdelrio He is pretty poular and many books were written about Him and 2000 years later still the most poular Dude,phoneys are expossed while they are pececuted.Nobody at the time who did write about Him denied He did what He did if you don't believe Him to be the Son of GOD then that is you're problem.A hasedic Jew told me they all belive in Jesus they said He was a radical and those healings he did were of the devil.And in their own texts about Him they make it clear they knew Him,Crucified
korzon 5 months ago
@korzon many books written about him. ok, give me a couple examples of those books (i assume they are cotemporary to him). I dont care whether everybody believes or thinks he existed, i need those who say it to back up their assertions with evidence or historical arguments. claiming the existence of books doesnt make those books real, i need references, titles, authors (if possible). Otherwise you are repeating gossip or engaging into wishfull thinking. Show me the evidence.
sirdelrio 5 months ago
@sirdelrio The Jews wrote plenty of books on Jesus and how he would boil in escrement in hell.And by a Heseidic Jew telling me this is all the proof I need that they themselves knew He existed.I will give you sources no problem but don't go canceling them out of evidence becuase they are written by jews.And also the muslims wrote in their koran about Him as well.They certainly don't agree He was who He claimed to be but none the less they all admit He was real.
korzon 5 months ago
@korzon * Miriam the hairdresser had sex with many men. (Shabbath 104b, Hebrew Edition only)
* She who was the descendant of princes and governors (the virgin Mary) played the harlot with carpenters. (Sanhedrin 106a)
* Christians who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations. (Rosh Hashanah 1
They did not deny he existed in fact he caused so much damage to their rule they called him a heretic and the miricles he did were of satan,
korzon 5 months ago
@korzon i'd welcome those references of the jews. and they would be of value as long as they were CONTEMPORARY of the time of jesus, because it would be based in eyewitnesses. decades or centuries later dont count (the legend would have been already in circulation). The quran doesnt count, it is centuries after the fact.
sirdelrio 5 months ago
@sirdelrio Well usualy people listen to what people say first then they write it down.And the Bible wasn't written as fiction it is based upon a fact that you simply disagree with.Jesus was real you just need to accept that.And you can't because if you had the inkling if He was you would be ashamed.Those who deny me to other men,I will deny them unto my Father in Heaven.
korzon 5 months ago
@korzon I dont reject the existence on jesus on any wish, i used to be a catholic, and even being an agnostic i still accepted his existence, but it was the examination of the evidence and the arguments of scholars of both sides (or all sides) what lead me to conclude that his existence is not that stablished. And how do you know ALL the bible is history, or which parts, because i'm pretty sure the earth wasnt created in 6 days, or that adam and eve were the first humans ever.
sirdelrio 5 months ago
@korzon tell me something, why are there contemporary novels written around the time of jesus (and before!), talk about sons of gods being born of virgins, beign child prodigies, that performed miralcles, were executed, escaped death, made postmortem appearances to skeptic disciples and vanished into inmortality? Why does the life of Apollonius of Tyana appear just exactly as jesus?
sirdelrio 5 months ago
@korzon And i dont care if Jesus said that. I consider christianity a moral abomination, a self contradictory proposition, and a cult of death. If jesus appeared here to me right now, i would no longer deny his existence, the supernatural or god's existence, but i would still not be a christian, because it's an obscene doctrine, contrary to what is better for humanity, what has proven to be of actual benefit, instead of the fairy tales of guilt and self-loathing of christianity.
sirdelrio 5 months ago
@sirdelrio * Yashu (derogatory for Jesus) is in Hell being boiled in hot excrement. (Gittin 57a)
[Yashu is an acronym for the Jewish curse, May his (Jesus) name be wiped out forevermore.]
* Yashu (Jesus) was sexually immoral and worshipped a brick. (Sanhedrin 107b)
* Yashu (Jesus) was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness and refused to repent. (Sotah 47a)
korzon 5 months ago
@sirdelrio If He did not exist at all they would have written nothing about Him and would have called Hima fraud for the miricles he did,But they did not deney the miricals for they seen them with their own eyes so instead they called Him a false messiah and said satan gave Him this power.A people so dead set against Him yet they had no problem adding him to their talmud.People don't follow non existant people or write about them for that matter this is common sense.Chines wrote of him too.
korzon 5 months ago
@korzon just because a book mentions a character doesnt mean the character existed. Don quixote? spiderman? there are even books about historical figures that contain fictional material. And regarding the talmud, man, that's like 300 years after the supposed time of jesus. jews were not dealing with a historical figure but with a growing cult (the christians). they didnt know whether he existed or not, all they knew was that christians were talking about a guy jesus.
sirdelrio 5 months ago
also, you are reaching waaay to far from what the evidence and scholars say about the talmud. the talmud talks about christian traditions, the christian sect and their believes, the talmud writers have no reference or time proximity to jesus to have had any eyewitnesses. they are just contradicting the christians, just like today one religion denies the others. poor arguments. i'm willing to listen to your material, but please let it be of some value and accuracy.
sirdelrio 5 months ago
@sirdelrio I will do my own investigational work here.The guy existed you just have to accept that.And there are even more books in the vatican that you have never seen.Spiderman in 2000 years won't even be remembered.And Josephus wrote plenty of things confirming a Jesus and people followed him.It is one thing to be in only a book and a nother to have actualy walked around the Jews knew of Him the Muslims did too.Even His enemies the pharasies hated him and wrote of Him.Give it up already.
korzon 5 months ago
@korzon i dont have to give up until you proof what you assert. just asserting something doesnt make it true. you say he existed, and are sure about it, eventhough you dont have arguments at hand other than assertions based on claimed facts you ignore. What other things did Josefus write about Jesus other than the 'testimonium flavianum', please show me, because i'm dead sure there's nothing more. I dont care if spiderman is forgotten, santa claus is in everyone's memory.
sirdelrio 5 months ago
N.T Wright the resurrection of the Son of God.. This guy really should see that
megaead69 7 months ago
If you're trying to identify a historical Jesus.. why is "The Bible" the only source you cite?
sleepyeyeguy 7 months ago
No credable historian would agree with this. In simply human terms alone, without the faith element of the ressurection, to say Jesus Christ didn't even exist contradicts our entire history - He is the centre of history, BC and AD. There are far more first hand sources for Jesus Christ than any of the best known historical sources such as Alexander The Great. To say He doesn't exist is to deny the entire existance of every other historical figure.Even secular historians will conceed to this.
lousten27 9 months ago
@lousten27 "There are far more first hand sources for Jesus Christ than any of the best known historical sources such as Alexander The Great"
Excuse me?!?! Although Alexander might not be the best example, there are far more and better sources for the majority of historical figures. Mark and Luke do no count as eyewitness. Paul says almost nothing about the person Jesus. Further, we have not evidence that Matthew and John were even written by the apostles.
jimmo42 9 months ago
@lousten27 Further, the gospels contain stories that the writers could not possibly have know firsthand.
"He is the centre of history, BC and AD"
What kind of non-sense is that? It wasn't until the 4th century that the calendar was changed. That claim is entirely without value.
jimmo42 9 months ago
@lousten27 you have coins with the face of Alexander. You have autographed letters of Julio Ceasar. "He is the centre of history, BC and AD", you could use the same argument for santa claus because our christmass celebrates him. BC and AD where established centuries after the allegued time of Jesus. We dont have first hand sources about him. Give me an example. Did paul know jesus? did peter write those epistles? did apostles write the gospels? did a witness see him praying in gethsemani?
sirdelrio 5 months ago
To doubt the authenticity source of The Bible is puzzling, too - all the scrolls match and forgery wouldn't have been possible, prophecies have been forfilled from the old testament if you do the research... so keen to go on about mayans this, 2012 that, but look at the Bible prophecies and what compares? Again, on pure human arguament, to doubt the authenticity of Bible transcripts is putting doubts on everything ever recorded that we feel genuine.
lousten27 9 months ago
@lousten27 "all the scrolls match"
No they don't! There are "more differences in the manuscripts than there are words in the new testament". There are many, many differences. That is what the so-called "majority text" is about. It takes the text that is in the majority of the manuscripts and assumes it is most likely to be correct. Any claim that "all the scrolls match" is utter nonsense and easily proven to be wrong.
jimmo42 9 months ago
@lousten27 "prophecies have been forfilled from the old testament"
Any time stories are written after the fact, you can invent something in an attempt to fulfill a prophecy. The contradictory, and historically inaccurate birth narratives of Jesus are good examples. Further, many "prophecies" were either misinterpreted by Christians writers or they simply got it wrong. The best example is the "virgin birth". It was neither prophetic, nor did it talk about a "virgin".
jimmo42 9 months ago
@lousten27 "to doubt the authenticity of Bible transcripts is putting doubts on everything ever recorded that we feel genuine."
Again nonsense. While scholars might be in agreement about the historicity of Jesus, they aren't about the bible as a whole. Further, they are **not** "transcripts" (...facepalm... ) but where writtern *decades* after the fact by people who were not eyewitnesses. PLEASE read something about historiography before you post that kind of nonsense again!
jimmo42 9 months ago
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lousten27 9 months ago
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lousten27 9 months ago
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lousten27 9 months ago
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lousten27 9 months ago