Glenn Gould Plays Webern: Variations for Piano Op 27

[guitarman7111]

i'm so tired of all the people who will insist they are right and this is not music. if you don't understand it, then fuck off. the rest of us will chill here and enjoy it. peace.

[jaspernatchez]

@divinityboy I guess you want the world to know that when you say, "I don't get something", you really mean, "I don't get it." Um, yes, well, we should all keep that in mind should we ever, for some odd reason, desire to converse with you.

[jaspernatchez]

@divinityboy Nobody mentioned getting "something". The issue is getting "it". Learn to read.

[guitarman7111]

To those who are saying that this piece sounds like monkeys banging on keyboards, or 3 year old nephews, or scores upside down, or whatever, consider this- to you, this may not be music. But to some (myself included) this music is beautiful. Maybe not tonally, but there is more to music than notes and wether or not they make sense to the ear. Webern's music is theoretically genius. Music is about interpretation and keeping your mind open to the feeling being conveyed by the composer.

[MatrixSaturation]

@guitarman7111

There is no point trying to explain in those cases, you get it or you don't.

But then there is music like Mahler's 9th Symphony, which the normal music enthusiast love but in reality still don't understand what's happening in there structurally. It's much more sophisticated than Webern's short puzzles. However, perceptually the difference being that with Webern the structure became disjointed from the musical dramaturgy while Mahler was leaps beyond everyone else.

[jaspernatchez]

@MatrixSaturation Nobody gets it, of course, because there's nothing to get. Those who claim to get it are fakers.

[MatrixSaturation]

@jaspernatchez

lol Wait here he is, Adler's Orchestration, oh here again, studies on mirrored form, oh here again, on the fragmentation of melody. How about the fact that Webern's intimate music is a direct answer to the overblown romantic music of the preceding century?

Dude, your telling me there is nothing to get after the hundreds of doctoral and master thesis on works by Webern. There might be nothing to get for you but at least don't have the hypocrisy to shout it out like your clever.

[jaspernatchez]

@MatrixSaturation Looks like some little oaf went to music school. Too bad they don't teach the diff between a possessive pronoun and a contraction there, eh, "dude"? OK, why don't you share with everyone what, PRECISELY, you hear in this music? Use time markers. Demonstrate how and why these pitches do not sound random to you, as if virtually any could be replaced with others? Music was hijacked by fakers like Webern, and all of "you're" doctoral students were duped.

[jaspernatchez]

@jaspernatchez I'd also really be interested to hear "you're" precise method of determining that my reference to this garbage as what it is is hypocritical. How is it hypocritical to voice an opinion? BE PRECISE. (I presume you comprehend the meaning of that word.)

[jaspernatchez]

@jaspernatchez Who said anything about debate. I was simply asking for you to share how and why the pitches chosen by Webern do not sound random to you. You could do it for Beethoven, right? You'd tell me that the first two groups of notes in the Eroica symphony are not random, because they form a triad. Simply, right? I'm asking you to provide a similar justification for Webern's pitch choices. You seem to believe his music is valid. Well, in order to be valid, the motivation for his

[jaspernatchez]

@jaspernatchez pitch choices must be evident, right? If it's not evident, it must sound random. And no meaningful music's pitch choices can sound random - that would make no sense. So I repeat, please provide your evidence of how and why his pitch choices do not sound random. Use time markers on the video. When you're done, please cite PRECISELY how I am a hypocrite for claiming Webern is a fake. Sorry about the language digs - I didn't know English wasn't your first language.

[MaestroTJS]

@jaspernatchez There's no winning with these people. Their reasoning is entirely circular and any time you point something out to them, they'll say, "well, it's supposed to be that way." They'll say it's supposed to sound random and avoid tonal implications. Then for another 12-tone piece they'll say the composer wanted to have some tonal implications.

Of course, it's possible to create a good 12-note melodic line, but I refuse to believe it will continue to be melodic in its transformations.

[jaspernatchez]

@MaestroTJS Of course, you are correct re 12-tone line. There's much territory in between random garbage and implied or actual tonality, sans silly 12-tone rules. Atonal music that utilizes fundamental, inherent aspects of groups of pitches, e.g. consonance-dissonance relationships, can be perfectly comprehensible without relying on the pre-existing structures of tonality such as triads and major and minor scales. A beautiful example is the 1st mvmt, second them of Prokofiev's 7th piano sonata.

[MatrixSaturation]

@jaspernatchez

First of all English is my only my third language, secondly I typed this in less than a minute and simply made a mistake. I won't debate with you the significance of Webern's music. I don't think you understand the historical context in which that music was composed.

[MaestroTJS]

@MatrixSaturation If one needs to understand the historical context within which music was composed to understand the music, then you are listening to period music and not music which is timeless. Great, timeless music doesn't need a textbook to explain what you should be listening for, etc., but a textbook helps you appreciate what's going on more.

Here, there isn't much to get without a textbook.

[jaspernatchez]

@MaestroTJS well put.

[MaestroTJS]

@jaspernatchez Notice that these would be the same people who would say programme music is ridiculous because you have to read a text to know what is being portrayed. (I generally agree, but the best programme music stands on its own regardless of the text or title.) However, since they are dealing with math/structure/numbers/whateve­r instead of abstract ideas, then that somehow makes it acceptable in their minds.

Maybe Augenmusik should be kept for the Augen and not the Ohren.

[jaspernatchez]

@MaestroTJS Until classical music lovers become responsible listeners and say "ENOUGH" by denying fakers audience, that which we loved so much from childhood will remain in mortal danger of extinction.

[jaspernatchez]

@MatrixSaturation what a load of music school bee ess.

[MatrixSaturation]

@jaspernatchez

I was listening to Webern when I was young, it has nothing to do with the fact that I decided to pursue my studies in music. The 12-tones system also gave birth to masterpieces such as Berg's Violin Concerto, it's not an "imposters" conspiracy to destroy music as you said earlier. Tonality had reached such a level of chromatism that it was inevitable. It's not something new as you seem to believe, it has passed & is now part of music history, as dif. techniques are used today.

[jaspernatchez]

@MatrixSaturation Why do you consider Berg a masterpiece? It's hyperromantic shlock with the wrong notes. No perceptible harmonic rhythm, no predictability to harmony or melody. In short, indecipherable garbage in the guise of real music - the gestures only are real. Your statement that tonality was doomed is like saying a tree can't grow anymore because one errant branch grew into a wall. What is very much alive today is the composition of music without meaningful pitch relationships.

[MatrixSaturation]

@jaspernatchez

Because Berg's violin concerto is a masterpiece, just like the Rite of Spring is a masterpiece. Nothing can change that. Work like that hit you in the face with genius from start to end.

[jaspernatchez]

@MatrixSaturation Ah, I see, so Berg's concerto is a masterpiece because...it is a masterpiece. Yes, thank you, now it's much more clear.

[MatrixSaturation]

@jaspernatchez

When Beethoven wrote is last string quartets he digged the grave for the classical form, and romanticism emerge. Mahler and Wagner did the same with tonality.  Bach wasn't fond of classical music, he found it decadent in comparison to the Baroque style.

So you haven't developed your hear to 20th century sororities, it's not a crime. It took 100 years for Beethoven to find a public for his last string quartet, which were considered pure non-sense during his living.

[jaspernatchez]

@MatrixSaturation Ridiculous. You are claiming that there was no audience for late Beethoven quartets until the second quarter of the 20th century. You should have gone to a decent school.

[MatrixSaturation]

@jaspernatchez

What I said is that the common public didn't get it. Actually the common public still can't digest the Gross Fuge. But generally proper understanding of the late quartets structures is something fairly recent.

"...critical opinion of the work has risen steadily since the beginning of the 20th century", "Most 19th century critics dismissed the work...". I know what I'm talking about and I was quite right to average the proper reception of the Late Quartets to 100 years.

[jaspernatchez]

@guitarman7111 No, there is not more to music than whether the notes make sense to the ear. If the notes do not make sense to the ear, it is not music. If the notes do make sense to the ear, it might be music. If it is music, it might be good music. And if it is good music, it might convey some of the feeling that the composer intends to convey. Get it now?

[usahanapampoo]

What a beautiful music

[scttzwdrff]

I love it. Thanks for posting.

[VamLoveAndKisses]

I'd like to see Glenn hum along this this! ;)

[MaestroTJS]

@VamLoveAndKisses He IS humming along, it's just a little hard to hear.

[paolosilv]

It might help if you could demark the number when each movement begins.

[erikjonathan100]

sin palabras... muy bueno, exelente!

[NarwhalsArePimps]

If you don't like Weburn, why are you here?

You think people are listening to shit, let them listen to shit.

[RAREpicture]

LIberace would love this music by Webern

[miker2001]

@RAREpicture LIberace excelled in bringing out the inner voices.

[ChibiRaikou]

lmao did someone really say bartok was atonal

[pooperscoopr69]

Webern's art is both exhilarating + illuminating.

Regrettable, this is lost on most of the dolts that appear on this blog.

Webern's music is completely devoid of musical cliches and the superfluous reiteration of standard harmonic invention.

Music as poetry expressed in tone.

[liszt100]

This is a treasure. Thanks for posting it.

[JokeSmuggler]

People who like Webern are people who want to feel like they're on a "higher plane of intelligence" than you. Atonality is not necessarily bad; however, it takes skill to keep it from being an ugly hodgepodge of incoherence. Webern failed at that. Bartok was much better at it.

[Epogdous]

@JokeSmuggler In saying so it seems that people who don't like Webern's music suffer from an inferiority complex! ^^ Anyway aims, means and results of Bartok's music were completely different from Webern's ones.

[JokeSmuggler]

@Epogdous I've been insulted personally by several people who love avant-garde. Literally they all say things that can be paraphrased as "You don't have the mental capacity to understand his genius." I saw that attitude in several comments below and just wanted to stick up for the "unintelligent" people. And I totally agree with your last statement, which was the whole point. Why study crappy atonality when you can study brilliant atonality?

[Epogdous]

@JokeSmuggler I don't suppose Webern's to be a kind of crappy atonality. On the contrary, his simmetries and total-chromatic frameworks are quite elegant. Maybe a bit naive but he was actually the first to do something like that. Did you know he was shot dead outside his house in unclear circumstances? He was a true outsider.

[edcerc]

@JokeSmuggler whats brilliant atonality then?

[mahler151]

@JokeSmuggler I like Webern, and I don't see myself as superior or inferior to anyone.

Also, why compare Bartok to Webern? They were completely different composers doing completely different things.

[jaspernatchez]

@JokeSmuggler whoa, man, very well put. Let's not forget Prokofiev and Stravinsky.

[Ear4Beauty]

Be patient with the newbies. After a few decades of hearing tonal music they may be more open to something like Webern. Its an aquired taste.

[MCAlexeyPegushev]

uncharacteristically long piece for Webern)

[TheDarkflags]

Anyone who finds any aspect of the form of Beauty in this music has conditioned themselves to do so by will, not by their nature.

[MichaelnChristine]

@TheDarkflags Prove it.

[TheDarkflags]

@MichaelnChristine

Children do not appreciate it as being "music".

[MichaelnChristine]

@TheDarkflags All Children in every galaxy love Webern and Schoenberg. Except on Beta 3336. You can't make all the bizarre claims you want but if you can't site a reasonable source they are just your bigoted opinions and please don't say "well my kids..." since they have stupid and musically illiterate father/mother we can assume they are stupid and musically illiterate also. So again...PROVE IT. Or shut up.

[ExNihilMetal]

@MichaelnChristine

(New account)

Your inability to remain civil suggests your inferiority in the intelligence department, when it comes to the two of us, but whatever. Personally, I not only come from a musical background, have sufficient musical and compositional training, and have studied Western Music Theory in the past, but am also a composer myself, of various and diverse styles of music. The main difference between my music and this music here is that mine is not forced.

[MichaelnChristine]

This style forces nothing. You are trying to say, in essence, that speaking German is forced and speaking English is natural. If you are German that isn't true. Ur points are to make claims about things by appealing to ignorance and than resort to ad homonym attacks on the intellect of those who like music, I don't hate Webern so I'm stupid. Great. Now shut up. If you don't like Webern don't listen but don't come here and speak for everyone and don't whine when everyone thinks you look stupid.

[ExNihilMetal]

@MichaelnChristine

Of course the style forces something. Within its definition, it is forcing the composer to refrain from reusing the same note until all other twelve tones have been played. That's an incredibly constricting rule, when it comes to composition. Do you actually understand this music, or are you simply trying to be cool? Your apparent lack of understanding of a number of other things would suggest the latter.

It's *hominem, and I haven't made any ad hominem "attacks" at all.

[MichaelnChristine]

Well I know enough about 12-tone SERIAL music to know that it's only uncommon to repeat a tone until you use the next ELVEN tones, not 12, and that no police are enforcing that "rule". Lecturing about music you don't understand while calling people stupid for enjoying it is a crappy thing to do. Correcting typos means you can't argue content. You still haven't backed up your claim that no child anywhere enjoys music without a tonality. So I will stick with "Prove it or MOVE A LONG"

[ExNihilMetal]

@MichaelnChristine

My mistake, I'd originally typed "all other tones", then meant to change it to "all twelve tones". The very reason I'm here at all is because somebody linked me to their perfect example of 12-tone serial music. I haven't once suggested that anyone's stupid for enjoying this music, I've simply stated that they've conditioned themselves to find enjoyment in it, just as I've conditioned myself to find enjoyment in generally atonal/discordant Death Metal.

[MichaelnChristine]

"your inferiority in the intelligence department" < This in response to being asked what proof you have that no children anywhere appreciate ANY FORM of Non-tonal music. If I don't agree with your bizarre claims I am stupid. Well I think your claims are made up, I'd like you to prove them or retract them. As it is your comments are caustic and rude and towards a subject I don't think you know a lot about.

[MichaelnChristine]

@ExNihilMetal Also, glass houses...stones.... "the style forces somethingS", It's "By definition" or not "Within it's definition", you were groping for restrictive not "constrictive", and musically you are confusing Serialism Vs Free Atonality with Tonal Vs. Atonal. Not all Atonal music is 12-tone and not all 12-tone music, even the serial sort, uses absolute serialism.

[ExNihilMetal]

@MichaelnChristine

What on earth are you talking about? I think you should learn the definition of "constricting" and read more in general. Everything I've written is viable English.

I have no background in this modern music, I've only ever been taught "Baroque", "Classical", and "Romantic" music, as well as various folk/indigenous forms and styles. This unnatural (and true) form of atonalism is incredibly grating, to me. I have no interest to learn anything about it.

[MichaelnChristine]

@ExNihilMetal Ok... according to 3 dictionaries "Constricting - 1.to make narrower." Since physical dimensions aren't involved you are looking for the word restrictive, which is defined as "1. Imposing restrictions or limitations on someone's activities or freedom. Also "within the definition" since the definition of Atonal does NOT contain X is BY definition and not within it. Also restrictive and constrictive would be wrong since Free Atonal music allows 12-tones to be used freely.

[MichaelnChristine]

@ExNihilMetal Also this ISN'T modern music. Webern died 60+ years ago. Would you consider an adding machine or automobile from the 30's "Modern"? No. This is "Second Viennese School" music and is an extension of Mahler and the Romantics not a reaction to them like Debussy.

[MichaelnChristine]

@ExNihilMetal Oh hell you are HS kid. No wonder you sound almost musically illiterate. Go take some music classes at your local University and after a few hundred hours of class time you can come and tell us how bad our taste in music is.

[darthdidious]

@ExNihilMetal

You don't know anything about the music, and have not interest in learning about the music, but you still feel your criticisms are valid. Right.

[darthdidious]

@ExNihilMetal

Tonality is just as constricting, if not more constricting, than twelve-tone composition.

[darthdidious]

@TheDarkflags

So, your standard of what is music and what isn't is what children define as being music?

[darthdidious]

@TheDarkflags

It is in my nature to like this music.

[petezilla]

sorry: one *wonders* what went through Glenn Gould's mind as he played these

[petezilla]

So strange. one what went through Glenn Gould's mind as he played these. While I never hated this music, I never fell in love with it either. It's like a building without doors or windows, in that respect. It's like a sculpture in which you keep looking for the face but never find it. Fascinating if nothing else. Anyhoo, thanks for posting!

[phddddd]

I love this music too, but I can never listen to it without thinking of Peter Falk explaining things to Alan Arkin in the cafeteria in The In-Laws: "What do you think will happen when they run off this dough... and there's trillions of extra dollars, francs and marks floating around? You've got a collapse of confidence in the currency. People are gonna panic. There's gonna be gold riots, atonal music.

[scottgilesmusic]

This is quite beautiful music. Beautifully performed here by Gould! Hey, and there's something about the black and white and the TV screen that visually works with the music here.

[nkupianist]

Hahaha, I don't mind Webern, but your comment still made me crack up, Danman

[joesantos69]

poor piano player has the scores upside down! how come anyone there helps him and turns them in the right position! that is cruel!!! :)

[FredeGF]

the funny thing about serialism is that it woudn't sound more nor less "harmonic" if you did that to the score.

[FredeGF]

twelve-tone music, i meant. but it most likely wouldn't make musical sense, like this actually does if you LISTEN

[joesantos69]

same thing if you cut the pianist one hand off. or if you replace him with a monkey, sounds would be similar. this piece reminds me (IM VERY SERIOUS SAYING THIS) when one of my little nephews (4, 5, 6 years old) goes to my piano and starts "playing". REALLY

[FredeGF]

so we can conclude that you can't see the meaning with this music? i hope for you that you - some day - will.

[telemacohomewwod]

one knows that the children are more creative of the adults

*smiles*

[PereUbu86]

@joesantos69

Then you're nephews are very intelligent and tallented! They understand that music doesn't have to sound NICE to be beautiful and that sometimes you really have to make an effort to understand it. Give them my regards!

[darthdidious]

@joesantos69

You're an idiot.

[danhatechav]

@FredeGF Well said, some people just dont have the patience to understand this wonderful style of music

[musael22]

joesantos69 your are a moron. Keep listening Boy George.

[minedarea]

@musael22 Don't worry, Boy George is still listening...

[MrRaph87]

aux vues de certains, je suis d'accord pour penser que ce n'est pas le genre de musique idéale pour aller se brosser les dents !! alors, le coup de la "mélodie que l'on retient facilement", c'est bon pour les adeptes de MTV !!

[cpanati]

In mathematics there's a coding scheme for sending information through outer space with minimal error; you code your message in what's called a Pseudo Random Noise (PRN) code. As a physicist I've used it; now I've heard it.

[lexo30]

Except that you haven't. Webern's concern with musical structure bordered on obsession; I think it's fair to say that almost no other composer structured his work with such meticulousness. The difference is that Webern's music does not follow the laws of classical tonality. Listen to the rhythm of the phrasing in the second movement, starting at 1:45, and then tell me that this is "pseudo-random noise" - you could actually dance to that music.

[startubman]

Webern's music isn't random in the slightest. He was, as lexo30 stated, a meticulous composer. Everything in his work was thought out, from the beat pattern to the tones he used. I'll admit, it's not the easiest thing to listen to, but it's beautiful to analyze and appreciate!

[Danman917]

I love the melody, I could just whistle it everyday

[aculturemind]

@Danman917

Many would, alas, counter your statement with, "....what melody?"

[lsbrother]

@Danman917 I thought i heard someone whistling it yesterday. But I was mistaken - it was my neighbours lawnmower.

[MrRaph87]

interprétation trés "romantique" de ces Variations, par un Gould trés lyrique ...

enfin, cette musique respire un peu, et est jouée pour ce qu'elle est ...

du grand art.

[lorenzarthur91]

I am starting to learn this piece right now (my piano teacher allows lets me play the pieces I propose :-) ) Nice music, learning the rhythm is going to be really tuff, though. But the notes are not quite difficult....

[pettycur]

Beautiful music.

[baillar100]

Gould really 'gets' Webern, and it shows here. Fine reading of the Variations.

[DeepSeaSeamus]

my piano tuner is a virtuoso as well

[cbdesade]

Mine's an amateur: he actually apologizes for the sour notes...

[BilGru]

Matter of opinion and taste. When I first started listening to atonal music in college as a music major, I couldn't stand it. But it's an acquired taste. Give it a chance. What have you got to lose?

[Kurtyoungblood]

Ok, we disagree on Webern, but I actually liked this.