Actually magic and witchcraft were two separate things.While some magical practices did end up in ancient Greek religion it was suppressed by the ancient Greek civilization as it developed. There was a fear of black magic. In-fact it was common to hide the hair and nails of a person to prevent them from being used in black magic (A Handbook to Life in Ancient Greece by Lesley Adkins and Roy A. Adkins Page 360 under Magic and Superstition). Continue...
@MaidenofAthena From Page 361 of the same book by the same authors under Charms, Amulets, and Curses. 'Amulets were used to protect the wearer against witchcraft and the evil eye.' This tells you that the Ancient Greeks feared witchcraft and as some magic had been absorbed into Greek religion, most likely due to evolution of religion, then it wasn't viewed as magic. Also there were no magicians in Ancient Greece, though they were around earlier, most likely in the Bronze or dark age, continue
@MaidenofAthena after the fall of the Mycenaean Empire. So that tells us that there might of been magicians during the Minoan, though we can't tell for sure because Minoan civilization is considered a 'silent' civilization due to no written record but there was a good chance that they were around during the Mycenaean Empire and put magic into their rituals which later went into Ancient Greece. I haven't found written evidence of it during the Hellenic period under Alexander the Great.
@BlueFireWitch Actually I do have the book and I didn't see it. I read the page but there's nothing on there that mentions Demeter. It was Classical Greece that there were no magicians and it was Roy A. Adkins and his wife that said what I commented on, not me. You really should read their book.
@MaidenofAthena It only acknowledges that both good and bad magick exist as in today. It in no way asserts that all magick./witchcraft were bad. Also, your assertion that there were no magicans in ancient Greece is false.
@MaidenofAthena I never asserted that Witchcraft and magic were the same thing. Secondly, just because people acknolwedged bad magic existed doesn't negate the belief in good magic which also existed.
I have been an initiated Witch and Priest to the Lord and Lady for more than 2 decades, and you BlueFireWitch are the first user on YouTube I have seen lately that attempts to put right a lot of wrong things, which have been spread around about us. I don't personally know if it's valid to use Witchcraft as a spiritual practice in Hellenism, but I was initiated in the old ways, so going by that it takes a Witch to make a Witch; obviously this could not happen in Hellenism without a Witch there
@iluvhomebiz I respect your belief, however I have to disagree to the logic and historical accuracy of initiated Witchcraft. There's no evidence that all Witches were initiated into covens or made Witches by other Witches. In fact, I have to ask who would have initiated the first Witch? There is extensive historical evidence to show Witchcraft in ancient Greece. In fact, many of the archetypes called upon by modern Wiccans come from ancient Greece like Medea, Hekate, Circe, Hermes, etc.
@BlueFireWitch Well, first and foremost, I would like to know where you get your information from. Beyond that, you have never approached witchcraft from a religious and spiritual perspective; the very first initiated Witch was, of course, The Goddess Herself! You can go on at great length with your historical book knowledge, but not all knowledge is found in written form - there IS "knowledge of the spirit eternal", and that is something the Goddess has said She will give to her Children
@iluvhomebiz I have approached Witchcraft from a religious and spiritual perspective. I did videos on Hellenic Witchcraft and how Witchcraft fits into my path. If the very first initiated witch was "The Goddess" as you put it, then anyone who forges a relationship with that Goddess can therefore be self-initiated. I'm not meaning to offend you. As I said, I respect your belief, I just disagree.
@BlueFireWitch When you say " I have approached Witchcraft from a religious and spiritual perspective", how exactly do you mean that? I know when I say it, I am talking about the whole bow down before the altar and call upon the Mighty Ones, perform the 8 major festivals/rites of the year with my Coven members thing; I am not simply a Witch and Priest by just saying the words, or just because I have read a couple of books on spells and incantations. This for me is a way of life - pure and simple
@iluvhomebiz We have different definitions of what Witchcraft is. You are describing worship and ritual, but Witchcraft is Wisecraft. In otherwords, it's an implementation of skills towards a specific goal, It's not even necessarily magick. It can be herbalism, divination, astrology, dream interpretation, etc. And many of those things can be incorporated into ritual. However, as a Hellenist, I don't celebrate the same holidays as you necessarily, nor do I worship the Gods in the same way.
To me, Witchcraft from the religious perspective is having the Gods guide me along that path. Hekate, is the Greek Goddess of Witchcraft, and in order to get closer to elements of Witchcraft, I find that forging a closer relationship with her helps me along my path as a Witch. I don't believe in one Goddess and one God. I believe in the Gods of Greece as separate beings. That makes me a hard polytheist. Originally, in Europe, there was no one Goddess and one God.
Further, I call upon my Gods in my magickal rituals as well. Evocation of a specific God or Goddess to aid in a magickal rite is also spiritual Witchcraft.
In Hellenism, we have different rituals as well that don't always center around the moon and the sun like Wicca. Wicca is a specific religion of Witchcraft but not all Witches are Wiccans. Greece is proof of that because Wiccan holidays are based on Celtic ones but Greece has very different holidays which vary from city-state to city-state in Greece.
For example, when standing in the presence of our Gods during ritual, we do not see the need to cast a circle. Only when we are raising energy for magick would we do such a thing.
@iluvhomebiz It is true that some gnosis is personal. And personal gnosis might not be the same from one person to the next. Which is why, I thought it odd that you kept mentioning the belief in Witches as only capable through initiation.
@BlueFireWitch If some knowledge is in fact done through the spiritual, then it doesn't make sense to me why the knowledge of witchcraft only be available through initiation. I was only trying to make a distinction between WIcca and Witchcraft. Wiccans are not the only Witches.
@iluvhomebiz It's one thing to say that one must be initiated to be a Gardenarian or Traditionalist Wicca, however, another thing entirely to claim that all Witches must be initiated. Not all Witches are Wiccans as Wicca is a new religion created in the 20th century-by all historical accounts.
@killerducky420 Obviously, you've not read Burkert. You don't know what you are talking about. Ancient rituals were sympathetic magic. You don't know what magic is, you don't know the purpose of practical ritual. Until you educate yourself, I can't continue this conversation.
Sorry to say but you look really ill BlueFireWitch, like something has happened to you, either physically or spiritually. Are you o.k.? I definitely discern a problem in you.
@BlueFireWitch When have I said they dont worth worship????? I wish I could explain you more, but I cant unfortunatly how hard I try my minor english understanding and the lack of expression doesnt allow me to argue further
@antikatastoli1 Ok, perhaps we're having a communication error. Worship means to hold in reverence. Which means that you treat with respect greater than yourself. Hence the capitol "G" in Gods and all the offerings and whatnot. I've never seen any overwhelming scholarly opinion that says we're supposed to see them as equals. It frankly makes no sense to me. They're Gods. we're not.
@BlueFireWitch Whorship is Λατρεία, Λατρεύω Worship means to love and want to become like them.. nothing more, at least in Hellenic language. I say we have communication problems for examples like that, you consider worship something else than i do. Aristotle wasnt always literal, by that allegory with women he means that your not "perfect" and thats what makes you unique.....................
Δελφικά Παραγγέλματα #3 ΘΕΟΥΣ ΣΕΒΟΥ it means respect the gods
@BlueFireWitch ΟΥΚ ΕΙΘΙΣΤΑΙ ΤΟΙΣ ΕΛΛΗΣΙ ΠΡΟΣΚΥΝΕΕΙΝ" Aristotle.. Its not on the customs of Hellenes to kneel.. it means that when you look the gods you have to look them as equals
@antikatastoli1 His opinion was the minority. I can cite several references that disagree. Maxims of Delphi #3: Worship the Gods. Hesiod and Homer too. Plus there's Walter Burkert who cites several examples of worship of the Gods of Olympus. They didn't consider him equals. Aristotle was wrong about a lot of stuff, as previously mentioned. So if you beleive his word to be golden, then you must believe that I am a woman because I was not cooked hot enough in the womb.
@BlueFireWitch Point being that no one scholar has the answers, but it's pretty obvious that the Gods are worthy of worship, even if Aristotle disagreed. And no, I don't believe Homer, Hesiod or any of the other scholars or theologians got it right. But it's not worth bickering over.
@BlueFireWitch I think they did have it right. I suggest reading Sallustius’ On the Gods and the Cosmos and others such as them. That's an official statement of Hellenic doctrine.
@BlueFireWitch Most ancient pagans viewed the Gods as equals and superiors. Equal because they are kin and superior because of their nature. Not just Hellenism but Norse mythology also. This is why the ancient Hellenist raise their hands in the air and look up when they worship rather than bow their heads. Let me ask you this also. Do you think the Gods created humanity? Do you think they created the universe?
@SuperPolytheist Yes, I think they created humanity, no I think they came from the universe. I don't care how the Ancients saw the Gods, frankly. It has no bearing on my own interpretation. I won't be dictated by the Ancients on what "true" belief is. And any assertion that their way is the only way is fundamentalism and makes you no better than any other fundamentalist.
@BlueFireWitch You call it fundamentalism but I call it defending something from being insulted. Your taking the Gods of a preexisting religion out of context just because that's how you see fit to do so and that is very different from me saying there is only one true way to connect with the Gods. That is Hellenism and that's what they believe and it's already established there is plenty of room for new ideas but not for ideas that in our view disrespect the Ancient and the Gods
@SuperPolytheist Defending what? News flash, every believer has their own interpretation and personal view of their deities. It's human nature. Otherwise, it's not religion, it's dictation. According to Burkert, there were many views of the Gods in ancient times. Many people feared the Gods. They did not seem them as equals. pg 247
@SuperPolytheist If you think you're equal to a God, I can't believe you seriously believe that. You can't call yourself an equal to someone who has authority over you. It doesn't make sense.
@BlueFireWitch Think of it this way. Your parents created you. You respect them and love them. You do not bow down to them and humiliate yourself to show them reverence.
@SuperPolytheist My parents are not Gods. They no longer have the power to punish me. I do not, and neither do you, have the power to be as great as the Gods. It makes no sense.
@BlueFireWitch I would have to go in to a bunch of theology to explain this to you. My point being that in my religion the Gods are part of my family and I love and honor family not bow down to them.
@SuperPolytheist Well you worship as you will. But you're view is not based on anything I've read in the numerous books on the Ancient belief. Nor does it make any sense today. If we are not to bow down to them, then they should not punish us. But they do, so obviouisly, they are superior to us, not equals. You don't get punished by an equal.
@BlueFireWitch Our parents punish us. They are superior yes but again they are family and you love family not worship them in the English sense of the word. We are part divine also which is why we have immortal souls
@SuperPolytheist My parents aren't Gods. That's why I don't worship them. We are part of Gaia, but we are not immortal in the same sense as the Gods. We are not masters of the universe. Therefore, we are NOT equal. I can't believe you believe this. It's so delusional.
religion without logic is fideism. It's superficial cult-like belief. It's going through the motions without using your own logical mind or philosophy.
@BlueFireWitch Umm Priest Christopher and I just had a huge discussion about magick it'd be easier to have him explain this to you about how this is just mis comunication.
@SuperPolytheist Apparently, you don't understand the Greeks. I've read about mysticism and magick, I know the difference. What we do is not and was not considered mysticism. Not according to Burkert and other sources as well. I know Chris told me that you don't trust Burkert, which I find funny. As if you've gone to school and got published by Oxford.
@SuperPolytheist So what you're saying is that you have your own interpretation, different from the ancients that you came to on your own. And no matter how many people tell you it's wrong. You're going to believe it. Ok, that seems counter intuitive and somewhat against the entire premise of the Greek Religion, but do as you Will.
@BlueFireWitch I don't believe burket I don't know what else to tell you if someone I trusted said so then I would believe them. Thats what I believe the ancients defined magick and mysticism
@SuperPolytheist Burkert is the one with the PHD. A little more credible than you. Furthermore, Burkert's not the only one who defines them differently than you. I think you're confused.
@BlueFireWitch to bow down to a family member. If you are doing magic in an impious manner then it is wrong im sorry it is just not ethical to sit and summon and dismiss a god as if you were there master.
@SuperPolytheist Anything impious is wrong. And any action can be impious. That's why, as I've said from the beginning, the ethics of magick lies in the intent or will of the caster. Evocation isn't summoning and dismissing. Evocation is an open invitation. It's about establishing a relationship and asking your Gods to be near you.
@BlueFireWitch Not true and I will not make a video on here for the final time. It is not going to happen and if it does it will be an altered disembodied voice because I don't feel like putting myself out there to the whole world because of where I live.
@SuperPolytheist What I said is exactly true. And if you won't make a video, you must be scared that people will oppose you. You don't have to announce where you live or even show your face to make a video.
@BlueFireWitch Hah You don't get it I don't want to make a video. I am talking to you not the whole world. I don't care what people practice. Mind you this started because I mentioned my personal experience with witch craft I was not condemning you and I don't believe you practice witchcraft as it is. This is like me asking you to make a video response to my comment it is not gonna happen.
@BlueFireWitch Hubris is an expression of contempt for the Theoi (Gods) or violation of the laws of Physis (Nature). Mageia (Magic) is any attempt to influence parts of the cosmic whole through the exploitation of the close-link of its components by the use of sympathy and harmony. Any practitioner 'using' the Gods to attempt to bring about a desired result (through the manipulation of the parts of the cosmic whole) would be considered
@BlueFireWitch Hubris because it would be disrespectful to the Ethical Order of the Kosmos as well as being a display of Hubris in attitude because of the lack of understanding of human limitations exhibited by an attempt to influence the Kosmos. Moreover, it would exploitative to worship any God or Goddess (even with due sacrifice) if all one wants is to achieve a desired result. We worship the Gods out of love and respect and whatever they choose to give to us is our personal
@BlueFireWitch Dikeosyne (Justice).... good or bad. It would be against the Ethical Order of Kosmos to give good unto bad and so if we do not have something that we want, sometimes it is because we do not deserve it.
@SuperPolytheist What are you referring to? Magick? You obviously don't understand magick. Magick is not manipulation, you're using your energy to get things done. Magick is creating change in accordance with Will, which means that it has to be part of your destiny ordained by the Gods in order for magick to work.
@BlueFireWitch I'm making a video right now. Most magick is manipulation and I don't believe the Gods ordain anything in our lives. It would make our exsistence pointless if it were so....
@SuperPolytheist You can believe that, but without proof you have no right to lecture me on your beliefs. You have no right to condemn what we're doing as wrong. There's no logic behind your statement. I hope you back up your video with scholarly sources and logic, I have studied magick,witchcraft and religion for decades. Be ready to back up your statements. I most certainly will.
@SuperPolytheist You claim we're doing manipulation and taking things that don't belong to us. Shall I quote you exactly? "Most magick is manipulation.." "...sometimes it is because we do not deserve it."
@BlueFireWitch No I claim that that is what magick is. I already told you I don't consider what you practice magick and even if it is it is one of the few forms of quasi acceptable magick.
@SuperPolytheist So, basically, you're saying that you understand the ethics of magic better than one who has studied magic and its ethics understands them, when you also admit that you have not done the same? That's simply illogical. As a hypothetical ancient example, one of Plato's school might be quick to dismiss the school of Aristippus as devoid of virtue and social duty -- but anybody who has actually studied the ethics of that school will know for a fact that assumption is wrong.
@SuperPolytheist The proof is in the pudding: If you really have and really did, then there would be apparent evidence in your communique. Unfortunately, by the very nature of the Internet, people tend to claim a lot of very false things to make themselves seem legit. I don't practise magic, but I've learned enough about the ethics of magic through reliable sources to know that none of the claims you've maintained in this thread hold water. ...
@SuperPolytheist Your entire argument is based on a very basic lack of knowledge -- and here I thought the Socratic and Platonic schools considered knowledge the highest virtue.
@SuperPolytheist Yes, essentially. And I understand that the term Witchcraft had a darker connotation in Ancient days. But Magick and Witchcraft, as I've explained ad nauseum, are not the same thing.
@SuperPolytheist How you see magick is incorrect. Both historically and currently. Magick and mysticism had differences in ancient times as well. You may not trust Burkert, but he's the one with the PHD
@BlueFireWitch Alright first of all I didn't claim to be more reliable than Burket second of all your assuming I don't have a PHd you don't know me at all. Third of all I don't know why you can't at least grasp the concept of being equals with the Gods. I'm not saying we are more important than them or as imortant as them but again they play the role as parent forever for everyone there is no moving out of the house and I see no reason to bow down to them because that wouldn't be appropriate
@SuperPolytheist You're asking me to believe you over Burkert, therefore you are claiming to be more reliable. You don't have a PHd. Call me a psychic, but that much I know. The fact that they are Gods negates definitively any possibility of them being equal with humans. Further, you've quoted no conclusive source to back your opinion. Only Aristotle who was speaking of kneeling during worship, not equality. Also, Aristotle was wrong about a lot of things.
@BlueFireWitch I didn;t claim to be more reliable than Burket my god. I tild you that that was what I believe and you keep throwing Burket in my face I DON"T CARE WHAT HE WROTE I DON'T TRUST HIM. I am not trying to convince you I'm telling you what I believe and then you claim that I am the rigid one. Second of all we can go on and on about this but I have grown tired of it and the whole ethical magick stuff. You claim we all do magick then whatever you want to believe becasue that is certainly
@SuperPolytheist If we're not as important as them, then we're not equals. Do you understand what the term equal means? From the Latin aequalis which means uniform, identical, etc. We are not the same as Gods, If so we'd be Gods. Ironically. Aristotle understands this logic. Predicates propose equality or inequality. If you're going to quote Aristotle, you should really understand his philosophy.
@BlueFireWitch Well I've come to the conclusion it is not a good idea to debate when Im about to pass out but can't fall asleep and have nothing better to do. Also it is not Aristotle who I am quoting. You present yourself as an equal to the gods during worship, you are not a literally equal that should be obvious otherwise we would be gods ourselves or at least that's what it would be implying. and till tomorrow Im just gonna shut up. cause there is no way im gonna make sense at this rate
@SuperPolytheist Bowing to them is different than seeing them as equals. You can maintain respect and dignity for yourself without having to dismiss the Gods as mere mortals.
@SuperPolytheist By repeatedly stating that you "don't trust Burkert", people will justifiably infer that you believe yourself and your sources are more reliable than Burkert and his. Secondly, if you have a Phd, it would be wise to produce proof of it and what it's in -- having a doctorate in music doesn't make one an expert in Hellenic religion. Lastly, the very definition of "equal" means even in your analogy, the Theoi are not our equals. A small child is not in any way equal to its parents.
@ruadhanmcelroy Ok I'm not having this conversation with you I already had it with blue fire witch for months. Look at the comments posted on the videos if you want to know what I think and the resolution that we came to. I'm not going to sit here and justify myself or my beliefs to a stranger about an argument that ended at least two months ago.
@SuperPolytheist I am reading the thread -- and when I see that something needs to be said, I say it. See, that's how Internet communique works, and if you don't want to run the risk of some-one responding to you days, months, or even years later, you keep to private messages -- and even then, there's no guarantee.
@ruadhanmcelroy "that's how internet communique works" try reading all the comments first simple one and to be honest your just coming off as obnoxious than trying to add anything important.
@ruadhanmcelroy I probably would lose interest first if I hadn't been on a mission to reply to every single comment you send due to you just popping in and replying to everyone's comments and ignoring my wishes not to be bothered over a nonexistent issue.
@SuperPolytheist But I haven't replied to *every-one's* comments. Yours, mostly, but PriestChristopher said some incorrect things that I also responded to. I don't understand your bizarre need to exaggerate everything to ridiculous extents -- but seeing as the majority of things you'd said are complete nonsense, I suppost it's all I can really expect, non?
@ruadhanmcelroy Yeah I suppose since all I claimed was that the ancient Greek religion was an Orthapraxy not an orthodoxy and mentioned that magick was unethical other than that l haven't claimed much to my knowledge so instead of bashing me why don't you please educate me.
@SuperPolytheist You apparently have access to Wikipedia, so answer my question; it is not my duty to educate arrogant little boys who think they can best me with a YouTube comment.
I repeat: Who were the two primary sides in the Peloponnesian War, and why would this mean that ancient Hellas was pretty far from a monoculture?
@ruadhanmcelroy It is not your duty haha there were somethings that in fact bound the Greeks together I am talkig about religion and your bent on history and culture you old fart.
@SuperPolytheist History and culture are very much a part of Hellenic religion -- the ancient Hellenes didn't even have a word for "religion" as if it were a separate part of their lives; the closest they had was "ta hiera" (Attik dialects), "the sacred", which referred to things of a spiritual nature that were ultimate entwined with everything from cooking to war. In fact, every ancient war was fought with a god's blessing on both sides.
@ruadhanmcelroy I know but that but we can only revive their religion we can't revive their culture. We can't have slaves and Pharmakos anymore we need to adapt what we can though.
@SuperPolytheist I mean, really, kiddo, you've not yet learned to shed an inherently monotheist outlook on life and it shows. Until then, you really have no grounds to argue with me on, as your arguments will remain laughably simple-minded. Maybe it's mean of me to mock some-one whose thinking is so sophomoric, but in some people's minds, it's mean of cats to play with mice before the kill.
@ruadhanmcelroy You trust Burkert despite all the new archeology and discoveries made? That book is old and there are new things being uncovered all the time about the ancients Burkert even says so himself he even had to update the already old book when it was translated. I don't have a Phd but assuming what my reason for not believing every word Burker wrote because I should have a Phd is wrong to me.
@SuperPolytheist Ah, so now you're a lier; you claimed by implication in old comments that you did have a Phd (indeed, you implied it all over the place). When you use words like "you don't know if I don't have a Phd", that's pretty much manipulating words to claim that you do, while giving yourself a logical out so that you can claim later that you never lied.
Of course, your lie-by0implication was pretty transparent all along, but it's nice to see you actually admit it.
@SuperPolytheist Do we really need to go over this again? Yes, you did. Maybe you aren't very good with words, and so you may not have *intended* to do so, but intent isn't some magical force that makes everything you say mean what you want it to -- if you'd ever actually practised magic, as in been properly tutored in it, then you'd know that's why magic workers choose not only their actions but also their words very carefully.
@SuperPolytheist I highly doubt you did. You're no-where near intelligent enough to apprentice under any of the magic workers I've known. You're impulsive and, frankly, naive, and too easily swayed by the ideas of others.
@ruadhanmcelroy Hahaha Yeah I'm impulsive and naive and am swayed by others ideas so I'm going to go to church. Now I am telling you I did practice magick for years. Yet all knowing blue haired boy knows that I am lieiing
@SuperPolytheist I'm telling you that you are lying because you are. I Bought A Book Pseudo-Wicca is not "magic", and I can't think of any magic worker in his or her right mind who'd take you on as an apprentice, based on your behaviour in this thread alone. And I may be saying this as a layman to that community, but I say it as a well-informed layman -- you're full of doody.
@ruadhanmcelroy I assure you I am not lying and you should look in a mirror and look at your own behavior before you judge others. I'm calling it a night your arguments are old and your assumptions are disgusting for me to continue this idiocy with you at this hour of the night.
@ruadhanmcelroy I understand where your coming from and I know your more intelligent and learned than I and I could use better wording but I am no where near as stupid as you think I am.
@SuperPolytheist Also: You basically just said Burkert is right. You said he updated his book, which is saying that he acknowledges the new archaeology. You just said he is right, but that you still don't trust his work, anyway.
@ruadhanmcelroy No I said his book is old and he had to update it once so logically there is a chance it may be inaccurate and may need to be updated again. Clearly if you were at least attempting to understand what I was saying you would realize that.
@SuperPolytheist Honey, when new information is uncovered, and a book that new info pertains to us updated to reflect it, then by definition, that book is correct. Even physicists uncover new information all the time, but the potential for new information doesn't mean that current information is wrong. What is correct or not is always defined by the information available -- any information that is not available is speculative, and thus cannot be correct, even if it might make sense in print.
@ruadhanmcelroy No I am pretty sure that not all of Burkerts book is 100% perfect and that is why I distrust it as a source. Also he kind of puts a disclaimer about trusting his own book.
@SuperPolytheist Er... the only way anybody with any real comprehension of Burkert's words would know that he did nothing of the sort. If you didn't understand what his introduction actually means, then you should be honest and say that rather than fabricate things Burkert never actually said.
@ruadhanmcelroy "Most progress and change is going on in the field of Minoan and Mycenaean religion, so that the short account contained in the first chapter of this book must be taken as a source of clues rather than a source of final result"
@SuperPolytheist That does not mean what you think it means. It means that the sources are still being analysed -- that does not at all mean the clues he presents are incorrect.
What's your first language, child? Clearly you have only the vaguest comprehension of English.
@SuperPolytheist I never said I wasn't. In fact, I kind of have a reputation all over the Intertubes for being one and revelling in it (though to be fair, sometimes I'm far less serious about my overinflated opinion of myself than I seem).
...because if it's not appropriate to move out of one's parents' house, then there is a reason: The children are not yet equal to the parents on some very important level. Your own analogy proves an inequality between man and Theoi, so the burden is on you to either provide a better analogy or to admit defeat.
@ruadhanmcelroy I never said we were equals to the Gods as in we are Gods as well I said we are to see the Gods on equal ground during worship and if you couldn't understand that that again is your folly.
@SuperPolytheist Your claim still shows a complete lack of understanding of what "equal" means. I understand what you're saying, but I also understand what "equal" means. Your claim is inconsistent, logically, and if you don't understand that, then the folly is *yours*, sugar-tits.
@ruadhanmcelroy Hah no I understand what equal means and I already explained it, you may be intelligent as I can tell you are but like most overly intelligent people you lack common sense. Also "Sugar-tits"? Wtf
@SuperPolytheist If my logic were pretentious, then that would mean I have no basis for believing it's correct -- but I do. Your accusations just prove that you're annoyed by the fact that I'm smarter than you.
@SuperPolytheist I don't need to know you to see that you do -- and it's clearly to my benefit not to know you if seeking the definition of what "common sense" actually means.
Hint: It doersn't mean what you seem to think it means.
@ruadhanmcelroy It is to your benefit because I'd probably punch you in the face for trying to switch my wording to make it mean what you want to and telling me constantly I don't know the meaning of the words I am using.
@SuperPolytheist What's to my benefit? No, seriously, you never said. I think you're just throwing words out of your fingers and hoping something besides complete nonsense results. LOL
@SuperPolytheist Whether or not I'm obnoxious is subjective -- but considering how well I get on with my peers socially, I'd say I have sufficient evidence to say your former accusation is quite false, indeed.
finaly i know of one person with my same religious intrests
xxgloomybearxx100 1 week ago
I should of said there were no magicians during Classical Greece. My mistake.
MaidenofAthena 1 month ago
Actually magic and witchcraft were two separate things.While some magical practices did end up in ancient Greek religion it was suppressed by the ancient Greek civilization as it developed. There was a fear of black magic. In-fact it was common to hide the hair and nails of a person to prevent them from being used in black magic (A Handbook to Life in Ancient Greece by Lesley Adkins and Roy A. Adkins Page 360 under Magic and Superstition). Continue...
MaidenofAthena 1 month ago
@MaidenofAthena From Page 361 of the same book by the same authors under Charms, Amulets, and Curses. 'Amulets were used to protect the wearer against witchcraft and the evil eye.' This tells you that the Ancient Greeks feared witchcraft and as some magic had been absorbed into Greek religion, most likely due to evolution of religion, then it wasn't viewed as magic. Also there were no magicians in Ancient Greece, though they were around earlier, most likely in the Bronze or dark age, continue
MaidenofAthena 1 month ago
@MaidenofAthena after the fall of the Mycenaean Empire. So that tells us that there might of been magicians during the Minoan, though we can't tell for sure because Minoan civilization is considered a 'silent' civilization due to no written record but there was a good chance that they were around during the Mycenaean Empire and put magic into their rituals which later went into Ancient Greece. I haven't found written evidence of it during the Hellenic period under Alexander the Great.
MaidenofAthena 1 month ago
@MaidenofAthena Have you read Burkert? Burkert speaks about the sympathetic magic that was used in rituals to Demeter (and other Gods) on pg 55.
BlueFireWitch 1 month ago
@BlueFireWitch Actually I do have the book and I didn't see it. I read the page but there's nothing on there that mentions Demeter. It was Classical Greece that there were no magicians and it was Roy A. Adkins and his wife that said what I commented on, not me. You really should read their book.
BastSekhmetMut 1 month ago
@BastSekhmetMut It seems like you are missing the point. Did you read the page and read where he specifically talks about magic?
BlueFireWitch 1 month ago
@MaidenofAthena It only acknowledges that both good and bad magick exist as in today. It in no way asserts that all magick./witchcraft were bad. Also, your assertion that there were no magicans in ancient Greece is false.
BlueFireWitch 1 month ago
@MaidenofAthena I never asserted that Witchcraft and magic were the same thing. Secondly, just because people acknolwedged bad magic existed doesn't negate the belief in good magic which also existed.
BlueFireWitch 1 month ago
I love to see your eyes through the reflections on your glasses.
Also nice video. I was educated by this.
StandOutSheep 1 month ago
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irodaneti 2 months ago
@irodaneti That's a statement, not an argument.
BlueFireWitch 1 month ago
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irodaneti 1 month ago
@irodaneti Good Gods you're ignorant.
BlueFireWitch 1 month ago
I have been an initiated Witch and Priest to the Lord and Lady for more than 2 decades, and you BlueFireWitch are the first user on YouTube I have seen lately that attempts to put right a lot of wrong things, which have been spread around about us. I don't personally know if it's valid to use Witchcraft as a spiritual practice in Hellenism, but I was initiated in the old ways, so going by that it takes a Witch to make a Witch; obviously this could not happen in Hellenism without a Witch there
iluvhomebiz 8 months ago
@iluvhomebiz I respect your belief, however I have to disagree to the logic and historical accuracy of initiated Witchcraft. There's no evidence that all Witches were initiated into covens or made Witches by other Witches. In fact, I have to ask who would have initiated the first Witch? There is extensive historical evidence to show Witchcraft in ancient Greece. In fact, many of the archetypes called upon by modern Wiccans come from ancient Greece like Medea, Hekate, Circe, Hermes, etc.
BlueFireWitch 8 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Well, first and foremost, I would like to know where you get your information from. Beyond that, you have never approached witchcraft from a religious and spiritual perspective; the very first initiated Witch was, of course, The Goddess Herself! You can go on at great length with your historical book knowledge, but not all knowledge is found in written form - there IS "knowledge of the spirit eternal", and that is something the Goddess has said She will give to her Children
iluvhomebiz 8 months ago
@iluvhomebiz I have approached Witchcraft from a religious and spiritual perspective. I did videos on Hellenic Witchcraft and how Witchcraft fits into my path. If the very first initiated witch was "The Goddess" as you put it, then anyone who forges a relationship with that Goddess can therefore be self-initiated. I'm not meaning to offend you. As I said, I respect your belief, I just disagree.
BlueFireWitch 8 months ago
@BlueFireWitch When you say " I have approached Witchcraft from a religious and spiritual perspective", how exactly do you mean that? I know when I say it, I am talking about the whole bow down before the altar and call upon the Mighty Ones, perform the 8 major festivals/rites of the year with my Coven members thing; I am not simply a Witch and Priest by just saying the words, or just because I have read a couple of books on spells and incantations. This for me is a way of life - pure and simple
iluvhomebiz 7 months ago
@iluvhomebiz We have different definitions of what Witchcraft is. You are describing worship and ritual, but Witchcraft is Wisecraft. In otherwords, it's an implementation of skills towards a specific goal, It's not even necessarily magick. It can be herbalism, divination, astrology, dream interpretation, etc. And many of those things can be incorporated into ritual. However, as a Hellenist, I don't celebrate the same holidays as you necessarily, nor do I worship the Gods in the same way.
BlueFireWitch 7 months ago
To me, Witchcraft from the religious perspective is having the Gods guide me along that path. Hekate, is the Greek Goddess of Witchcraft, and in order to get closer to elements of Witchcraft, I find that forging a closer relationship with her helps me along my path as a Witch. I don't believe in one Goddess and one God. I believe in the Gods of Greece as separate beings. That makes me a hard polytheist. Originally, in Europe, there was no one Goddess and one God.
BlueFireWitch 7 months ago
Further, I call upon my Gods in my magickal rituals as well. Evocation of a specific God or Goddess to aid in a magickal rite is also spiritual Witchcraft.
BlueFireWitch 7 months ago
In Hellenism, we have different rituals as well that don't always center around the moon and the sun like Wicca. Wicca is a specific religion of Witchcraft but not all Witches are Wiccans. Greece is proof of that because Wiccan holidays are based on Celtic ones but Greece has very different holidays which vary from city-state to city-state in Greece.
BlueFireWitch 7 months ago
For example, when standing in the presence of our Gods during ritual, we do not see the need to cast a circle. Only when we are raising energy for magick would we do such a thing.
BlueFireWitch 7 months ago
@iluvhomebiz It is true that some gnosis is personal. And personal gnosis might not be the same from one person to the next. Which is why, I thought it odd that you kept mentioning the belief in Witches as only capable through initiation.
BlueFireWitch 8 months ago
@BlueFireWitch If some knowledge is in fact done through the spiritual, then it doesn't make sense to me why the knowledge of witchcraft only be available through initiation. I was only trying to make a distinction between WIcca and Witchcraft. Wiccans are not the only Witches.
BlueFireWitch 8 months ago
@iluvhomebiz It's one thing to say that one must be initiated to be a Gardenarian or Traditionalist Wicca, however, another thing entirely to claim that all Witches must be initiated. Not all Witches are Wiccans as Wicca is a new religion created in the 20th century-by all historical accounts.
BlueFireWitch 8 months ago
@killerducky420 Obviously, you've not read Burkert. You don't know what you are talking about. Ancient rituals were sympathetic magic. You don't know what magic is, you don't know the purpose of practical ritual. Until you educate yourself, I can't continue this conversation.
BlueFireWitch 8 months ago
its like watching tv tak show hahaha
antikatastoli1 9 months ago
Sorry to say but you look really ill BlueFireWitch, like something has happened to you, either physically or spiritually. Are you o.k.? I definitely discern a problem in you.
TheStevoSpeedo 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch When have I said they dont worth worship????? I wish I could explain you more, but I cant unfortunatly how hard I try my minor english understanding and the lack of expression doesnt allow me to argue further
antikatastoli1 9 months ago
@antikatastoli1 Ok, perhaps we're having a communication error. Worship means to hold in reverence. Which means that you treat with respect greater than yourself. Hence the capitol "G" in Gods and all the offerings and whatnot. I've never seen any overwhelming scholarly opinion that says we're supposed to see them as equals. It frankly makes no sense to me. They're Gods. we're not.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Whorship is Λατρεία, Λατρεύω Worship means to love and want to become like them.. nothing more, at least in Hellenic language. I say we have communication problems for examples like that, you consider worship something else than i do. Aristotle wasnt always literal, by that allegory with women he means that your not "perfect" and thats what makes you unique.....................
Δελφικά Παραγγέλματα #3 ΘΕΟΥΣ ΣΕΒΟΥ it means respect the gods
antikatastoli1 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Αδερφέ μου,μπορείς να μου στείλεις ένα link απο forum με άλλους Ελληνιστες;
antikatastoli1 9 months ago
@antikatastoli1 hellenismos.us is the one I use most.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist έγινα σήμερα μέλος εκεί! πολύ καλό site να σαι καλά αδερφέ μου
antikatastoli1 9 months ago
@antikatastoli1 Είναι ένα πολύ καλό site, και ιδίως των blogs εκεί που μιλούν για τον Ελληνισμό και τις αξίες της.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Είναι πράγματι σαν ηλεκτρονική βιβλιοθήκη! Ενδιαφέρομαι να δω πως σκέφτονται οι Έλληνες του εξωτερικού! έβαλα όνομα Ασπίς χαχα
antikatastoli1 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch ΟΥΚ ΕΙΘΙΣΤΑΙ ΤΟΙΣ ΕΛΛΗΣΙ ΠΡΟΣΚΥΝΕΕΙΝ" Aristotle.. Its not on the customs of Hellenes to kneel.. it means that when you look the gods you have to look them as equals
antikatastoli1 9 months ago
@antikatastoli1 His opinion was the minority. I can cite several references that disagree. Maxims of Delphi #3: Worship the Gods. Hesiod and Homer too. Plus there's Walter Burkert who cites several examples of worship of the Gods of Olympus. They didn't consider him equals. Aristotle was wrong about a lot of stuff, as previously mentioned. So if you beleive his word to be golden, then you must believe that I am a woman because I was not cooked hot enough in the womb.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Point being that no one scholar has the answers, but it's pretty obvious that the Gods are worthy of worship, even if Aristotle disagreed. And no, I don't believe Homer, Hesiod or any of the other scholars or theologians got it right. But it's not worth bickering over.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch I think they did have it right. I suggest reading Sallustius’ On the Gods and the Cosmos and others such as them. That's an official statement of Hellenic doctrine.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Most ancient pagans viewed the Gods as equals and superiors. Equal because they are kin and superior because of their nature. Not just Hellenism but Norse mythology also. This is why the ancient Hellenist raise their hands in the air and look up when they worship rather than bow their heads. Let me ask you this also. Do you think the Gods created humanity? Do you think they created the universe?
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Yes, I think they created humanity, no I think they came from the universe. I don't care how the Ancients saw the Gods, frankly. It has no bearing on my own interpretation. I won't be dictated by the Ancients on what "true" belief is. And any assertion that their way is the only way is fundamentalism and makes you no better than any other fundamentalist.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch You call it fundamentalism but I call it defending something from being insulted. Your taking the Gods of a preexisting religion out of context just because that's how you see fit to do so and that is very different from me saying there is only one true way to connect with the Gods. That is Hellenism and that's what they believe and it's already established there is plenty of room for new ideas but not for ideas that in our view disrespect the Ancient and the Gods
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Defending what? News flash, every believer has their own interpretation and personal view of their deities. It's human nature. Otherwise, it's not religion, it's dictation. According to Burkert, there were many views of the Gods in ancient times. Many people feared the Gods. They did not seem them as equals. pg 247
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch With that said I really don't care what you practice but we definitely believe in very different things.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist I'm not convinced that we do. We may have some different ideas, but for the most part, I believe we have more in common than not.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch I don't see how. We could go on and on about theology and our views are vaguely similar at all.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist We believe in the same Gods, silly.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Yeah but that's about it. Our views of the Gods are drastically different I would imagine.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist If you think you're equal to a God, I can't believe you seriously believe that. You can't call yourself an equal to someone who has authority over you. It doesn't make sense.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Think of it this way. Your parents created you. You respect them and love them. You do not bow down to them and humiliate yourself to show them reverence.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist My parents are not Gods. They no longer have the power to punish me. I do not, and neither do you, have the power to be as great as the Gods. It makes no sense.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch I would have to go in to a bunch of theology to explain this to you. My point being that in my religion the Gods are part of my family and I love and honor family not bow down to them.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Well you worship as you will. But you're view is not based on anything I've read in the numerous books on the Ancient belief. Nor does it make any sense today. If we are not to bow down to them, then they should not punish us. But they do, so obviouisly, they are superior to us, not equals. You don't get punished by an equal.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Our parents punish us. They are superior yes but again they are family and you love family not worship them in the English sense of the word. We are part divine also which is why we have immortal souls
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist My parents aren't Gods. That's why I don't worship them. We are part of Gaia, but we are not immortal in the same sense as the Gods. We are not masters of the universe. Therefore, we are NOT equal. I can't believe you believe this. It's so delusional.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
religion without logic is fideism. It's superficial cult-like belief. It's going through the motions without using your own logical mind or philosophy.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
The Ancients told us to seek out wisdom; the Maxims of Delphi implored us to use our minds.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Umm Priest Christopher and I just had a huge discussion about magick it'd be easier to have him explain this to you about how this is just mis comunication.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Apparently, you don't understand the Greeks. I've read about mysticism and magick, I know the difference. What we do is not and was not considered mysticism. Not according to Burkert and other sources as well. I know Chris told me that you don't trust Burkert, which I find funny. As if you've gone to school and got published by Oxford.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Alrighty then... if you understand the difference then I don't see what the problem is.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist So why did you suggest that what we did was mysticism. That's pure nonsense.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Because that's how I see it.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist So what you're saying is that you have your own interpretation, different from the ancients that you came to on your own. And no matter how many people tell you it's wrong. You're going to believe it. Ok, that seems counter intuitive and somewhat against the entire premise of the Greek Religion, but do as you Will.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch I don't believe burket I don't know what else to tell you if someone I trusted said so then I would believe them. Thats what I believe the ancients defined magick and mysticism
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Burkert is the one with the PHD. A little more credible than you. Furthermore, Burkert's not the only one who defines them differently than you. I think you're confused.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch to bow down to a family member. If you are doing magic in an impious manner then it is wrong im sorry it is just not ethical to sit and summon and dismiss a god as if you were there master.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Anything impious is wrong. And any action can be impious. That's why, as I've said from the beginning, the ethics of magick lies in the intent or will of the caster. Evocation isn't summoning and dismissing. Evocation is an open invitation. It's about establishing a relationship and asking your Gods to be near you.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Not true and I will not make a video on here for the final time. It is not going to happen and if it does it will be an altered disembodied voice because I don't feel like putting myself out there to the whole world because of where I live.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist What I said is exactly true. And if you won't make a video, you must be scared that people will oppose you. You don't have to announce where you live or even show your face to make a video.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Hah You don't get it I don't want to make a video. I am talking to you not the whole world. I don't care what people practice. Mind you this started because I mentioned my personal experience with witch craft I was not condemning you and I don't believe you practice witchcraft as it is. This is like me asking you to make a video response to my comment it is not gonna happen.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist I get it. You're afraid.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Yup that's why, I'm afraid.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Hubris is an expression of contempt for the Theoi (Gods) or violation of the laws of Physis (Nature). Mageia (Magic) is any attempt to influence parts of the cosmic whole through the exploitation of the close-link of its components by the use of sympathy and harmony. Any practitioner 'using' the Gods to attempt to bring about a desired result (through the manipulation of the parts of the cosmic whole) would be considered
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Hubris because it would be disrespectful to the Ethical Order of the Kosmos as well as being a display of Hubris in attitude because of the lack of understanding of human limitations exhibited by an attempt to influence the Kosmos. Moreover, it would exploitative to worship any God or Goddess (even with due sacrifice) if all one wants is to achieve a desired result. We worship the Gods out of love and respect and whatever they choose to give to us is our personal
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Dikeosyne (Justice).... good or bad. It would be against the Ethical Order of Kosmos to give good unto bad and so if we do not have something that we want, sometimes it is because we do not deserve it.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist What are you referring to? Magick? You obviously don't understand magick. Magick is not manipulation, you're using your energy to get things done. Magick is creating change in accordance with Will, which means that it has to be part of your destiny ordained by the Gods in order for magick to work.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch I'm making a video right now. Most magick is manipulation and I don't believe the Gods ordain anything in our lives. It would make our exsistence pointless if it were so....
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist You can believe that, but without proof you have no right to lecture me on your beliefs. You have no right to condemn what we're doing as wrong. There's no logic behind your statement. I hope you back up your video with scholarly sources and logic, I have studied magick,witchcraft and religion for decades. Be ready to back up your statements. I most certainly will.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch I DID NOT CONDEMN YOUR BELIEFS. Yes I have scholarly resources. After that I am not making another video ever
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist You claim we're doing manipulation and taking things that don't belong to us. Shall I quote you exactly? "Most magick is manipulation.." "...sometimes it is because we do not deserve it."
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch No I claim that that is what magick is. I already told you I don't consider what you practice magick and even if it is it is one of the few forms of quasi acceptable magick.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist So, basically, you're saying that you understand the ethics of magic better than one who has studied magic and its ethics understands them, when you also admit that you have not done the same? That's simply illogical. As a hypothetical ancient example, one of Plato's school might be quick to dismiss the school of Aristippus as devoid of virtue and social duty -- but anybody who has actually studied the ethics of that school will know for a fact that assumption is wrong.
ruadhanmcelroy 7 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy I have studied magic??? I know the ethics behind it. I am not assuming anything. I used to practice magic myself.
SuperPolytheist 7 months ago
@SuperPolytheist The proof is in the pudding: If you really have and really did, then there would be apparent evidence in your communique. Unfortunately, by the very nature of the Internet, people tend to claim a lot of very false things to make themselves seem legit. I don't practise magic, but I've learned enough about the ethics of magic through reliable sources to know that none of the claims you've maintained in this thread hold water. ...
ruadhanmcelroy 7 months ago
... Frankly, I think you're making it all up to sound smart, and this new one is simply the latest in a long line of falsehood from you.
ruadhanmcelroy 7 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Your entire argument is based on a very basic lack of knowledge -- and here I thought the Socratic and Platonic schools considered knowledge the highest virtue.
ruadhanmcelroy 7 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Im assuming when you do magick you are trying to get closer to the gods and improve the quality of life right?
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Yes, essentially. And I understand that the term Witchcraft had a darker connotation in Ancient days. But Magick and Witchcraft, as I've explained ad nauseum, are not the same thing.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch You know how I see magick now and citing burket of all people isn't going to change that so we don't really have an issue here.
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist How you see magick is incorrect. Both historically and currently. Magick and mysticism had differences in ancient times as well. You may not trust Burkert, but he's the one with the PHD
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Well thats fine if thats what you think about my view on magick
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Unsupported and wrong.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Alright first of all I didn't claim to be more reliable than Burket second of all your assuming I don't have a PHd you don't know me at all. Third of all I don't know why you can't at least grasp the concept of being equals with the Gods. I'm not saying we are more important than them or as imortant as them but again they play the role as parent forever for everyone there is no moving out of the house and I see no reason to bow down to them because that wouldn't be appropriate
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist You're asking me to believe you over Burkert, therefore you are claiming to be more reliable. You don't have a PHd. Call me a psychic, but that much I know. The fact that they are Gods negates definitively any possibility of them being equal with humans. Further, you've quoted no conclusive source to back your opinion. Only Aristotle who was speaking of kneeling during worship, not equality. Also, Aristotle was wrong about a lot of things.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch I didn;t claim to be more reliable than Burket my god. I tild you that that was what I believe and you keep throwing Burket in my face I DON"T CARE WHAT HE WROTE I DON'T TRUST HIM. I am not trying to convince you I'm telling you what I believe and then you claim that I am the rigid one. Second of all we can go on and on about this but I have grown tired of it and the whole ethical magick stuff. You claim we all do magick then whatever you want to believe becasue that is certainly
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist If your beliefs cannot hold up to some basic challenges, then how do you know that they're true? This is Philosophy 101 shit, here.
ruadhanmcelroy 7 months ago
@SuperPolytheist If we're not as important as them, then we're not equals. Do you understand what the term equal means? From the Latin aequalis which means uniform, identical, etc. We are not the same as Gods, If so we'd be Gods. Ironically. Aristotle understands this logic. Predicates propose equality or inequality. If you're going to quote Aristotle, you should really understand his philosophy.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@BlueFireWitch Well I've come to the conclusion it is not a good idea to debate when Im about to pass out but can't fall asleep and have nothing better to do. Also it is not Aristotle who I am quoting. You present yourself as an equal to the gods during worship, you are not a literally equal that should be obvious otherwise we would be gods ourselves or at least that's what it would be implying. and till tomorrow Im just gonna shut up. cause there is no way im gonna make sense at this rate
SuperPolytheist 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist I am going to ask you again to make a video. The commenting is tedious. This is Youtube. VOICE your opinions.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Bowing to them is different than seeing them as equals. You can maintain respect and dignity for yourself without having to dismiss the Gods as mere mortals.
BlueFireWitch 9 months ago
@SuperPolytheist By repeatedly stating that you "don't trust Burkert", people will justifiably infer that you believe yourself and your sources are more reliable than Burkert and his. Secondly, if you have a Phd, it would be wise to produce proof of it and what it's in -- having a doctorate in music doesn't make one an expert in Hellenic religion. Lastly, the very definition of "equal" means even in your analogy, the Theoi are not our equals. A small child is not in any way equal to its parents.
ruadhanmcelroy 7 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy Ok I'm not having this conversation with you I already had it with blue fire witch for months. Look at the comments posted on the videos if you want to know what I think and the resolution that we came to. I'm not going to sit here and justify myself or my beliefs to a stranger about an argument that ended at least two months ago.
SuperPolytheist 7 months ago
@SuperPolytheist I am reading the thread -- and when I see that something needs to be said, I say it. See, that's how Internet communique works, and if you don't want to run the risk of some-one responding to you days, months, or even years later, you keep to private messages -- and even then, there's no guarantee.
ruadhanmcelroy 7 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy "that's how internet communique works" try reading all the comments first simple one and to be honest your just coming off as obnoxious than trying to add anything important.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist No, I think your recent comments are proving that you are the one who is obnoxious and self-important and I'm the one who's right.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy Hah What exactly are you right about? Being a troll?
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist You're the one who said I was right.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy I never said you were right I said BFW was right your just annoying so now I'm going to annoy you.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist I'm hard to annoy. I bet you ten dollars you lose interest first.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy I probably would lose interest first if I hadn't been on a mission to reply to every single comment you send due to you just popping in and replying to everyone's comments and ignoring my wishes not to be bothered over a nonexistent issue.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist But I haven't replied to *every-one's* comments. Yours, mostly, but PriestChristopher said some incorrect things that I also responded to. I don't understand your bizarre need to exaggerate everything to ridiculous extents -- but seeing as the majority of things you'd said are complete nonsense, I suppost it's all I can really expect, non?
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy Yeah I suppose since all I claimed was that the ancient Greek religion was an Orthapraxy not an orthodoxy and mentioned that magick was unethical other than that l haven't claimed much to my knowledge so instead of bashing me why don't you please educate me.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist You apparently have access to Wikipedia, so answer my question; it is not my duty to educate arrogant little boys who think they can best me with a YouTube comment.
I repeat: Who were the two primary sides in the Peloponnesian War, and why would this mean that ancient Hellas was pretty far from a monoculture?
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy It is not your duty haha there were somethings that in fact bound the Greeks together I am talkig about religion and your bent on history and culture you old fart.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist History and culture are very much a part of Hellenic religion -- the ancient Hellenes didn't even have a word for "religion" as if it were a separate part of their lives; the closest they had was "ta hiera" (Attik dialects), "the sacred", which referred to things of a spiritual nature that were ultimate entwined with everything from cooking to war. In fact, every ancient war was fought with a god's blessing on both sides.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy I know but that but we can only revive their religion we can't revive their culture. We can't have slaves and Pharmakos anymore we need to adapt what we can though.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist You seem to be operating from the assumption that the culture is a dead thing. Curious.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist I mean, really, kiddo, you've not yet learned to shed an inherently monotheist outlook on life and it shows. Until then, you really have no grounds to argue with me on, as your arguments will remain laughably simple-minded. Maybe it's mean of me to mock some-one whose thinking is so sophomoric, but in some people's minds, it's mean of cats to play with mice before the kill.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy You trust Burkert despite all the new archeology and discoveries made? That book is old and there are new things being uncovered all the time about the ancients Burkert even says so himself he even had to update the already old book when it was translated. I don't have a Phd but assuming what my reason for not believing every word Burker wrote because I should have a Phd is wrong to me.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Ah, so now you're a lier; you claimed by implication in old comments that you did have a Phd (indeed, you implied it all over the place). When you use words like "you don't know if I don't have a Phd", that's pretty much manipulating words to claim that you do, while giving yourself a logical out so that you can claim later that you never lied.
Of course, your lie-by0implication was pretty transparent all along, but it's nice to see you actually admit it.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy I never said I had a Phd nor did I imply it as I said before your a troll.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Yes, you did imply that.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy I did NOT imply that that was YOUR assumption
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist
imply [im-plahy] im·ply [im-plahy] verb (used with object), -plied, -ply·ing.
1. to indicate or suggest without being explicitly stated: His words implied a lack of faith.
2. (of words) to signify or mean.
That's what your words, arranged in that order, indicated, suggested, and meant. Therefore? You implied it, sugar-tits.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy I did not imply that.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Do we really need to go over this again? Yes, you did. Maybe you aren't very good with words, and so you may not have *intended* to do so, but intent isn't some magical force that makes everything you say mean what you want it to -- if you'd ever actually practised magic, as in been properly tutored in it, then you'd know that's why magic workers choose not only their actions but also their words very carefully.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy Oh my goodness I practiced magick for years you damn know it all. I did not imply it that was your assumption.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist I highly doubt you did. You're no-where near intelligent enough to apprentice under any of the magic workers I've known. You're impulsive and, frankly, naive, and too easily swayed by the ideas of others.
Do us all a favour and go back to church. :-)
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy Hahaha Yeah I'm impulsive and naive and am swayed by others ideas so I'm going to go to church. Now I am telling you I did practice magick for years. Yet all knowing blue haired boy knows that I am lieiing
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist I'm telling you that you are lying because you are. I Bought A Book Pseudo-Wicca is not "magic", and I can't think of any magic worker in his or her right mind who'd take you on as an apprentice, based on your behaviour in this thread alone. And I may be saying this as a layman to that community, but I say it as a well-informed layman -- you're full of doody.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy I assure you I am not lying and you should look in a mirror and look at your own behavior before you judge others. I'm calling it a night your arguments are old and your assumptions are disgusting for me to continue this idiocy with you at this hour of the night.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist You betray your ignorance, kiddo. Maybe some day, you'll see that and thank me for the illumination.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy I understand where your coming from and I know your more intelligent and learned than I and I could use better wording but I am no where near as stupid as you think I am.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Then the burden of proof is on you to make me see that. Merely telling me doesn't uncloud my vision.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
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@SuperPolytheist You betray your ignorance, kiddo. Maybe some day, you'll see that and thank me for the illumination.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Also: You basically just said Burkert is right. You said he updated his book, which is saying that he acknowledges the new archaeology. You just said he is right, but that you still don't trust his work, anyway.
Curious.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy No I said his book is old and he had to update it once so logically there is a chance it may be inaccurate and may need to be updated again. Clearly if you were at least attempting to understand what I was saying you would realize that.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Honey, when new information is uncovered, and a book that new info pertains to us updated to reflect it, then by definition, that book is correct. Even physicists uncover new information all the time, but the potential for new information doesn't mean that current information is wrong. What is correct or not is always defined by the information available -- any information that is not available is speculative, and thus cannot be correct, even if it might make sense in print.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy No I am pretty sure that not all of Burkerts book is 100% perfect and that is why I distrust it as a source. Also he kind of puts a disclaimer about trusting his own book.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Er... the only way anybody with any real comprehension of Burkert's words would know that he did nothing of the sort. If you didn't understand what his introduction actually means, then you should be honest and say that rather than fabricate things Burkert never actually said.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy "Most progress and change is going on in the field of Minoan and Mycenaean religion, so that the short account contained in the first chapter of this book must be taken as a source of clues rather than a source of final result"
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist That does not mean what you think it means. It means that the sources are still being analysed -- that does not at all mean the clues he presents are incorrect.
What's your first language, child? Clearly you have only the vaguest comprehension of English.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy Yeah now I don't even know English haha
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist I just call it like I see it, kiddo.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy Haha Yeah right. Your just another snob.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist I never said I wasn't. In fact, I kind of have a reputation all over the Intertubes for being one and revelling in it (though to be fair, sometimes I'm far less serious about my overinflated opinion of myself than I seem).
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
...because if it's not appropriate to move out of one's parents' house, then there is a reason: The children are not yet equal to the parents on some very important level. Your own analogy proves an inequality between man and Theoi, so the burden is on you to either provide a better analogy or to admit defeat.
ruadhanmcelroy 7 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy I never said we were equals to the Gods as in we are Gods as well I said we are to see the Gods on equal ground during worship and if you couldn't understand that that again is your folly.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Your claim still shows a complete lack of understanding of what "equal" means. I understand what you're saying, but I also understand what "equal" means. Your claim is inconsistent, logically, and if you don't understand that, then the folly is *yours*, sugar-tits.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy your a troll
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy Hah no I understand what equal means and I already explained it, you may be intelligent as I can tell you are but like most overly intelligent people you lack common sense. Also "Sugar-tits"? Wtf
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Ah, sugar-tits, I see you acknowledge my genius.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy You maybe intelligent but again your trying to not understand what I am saying on purpose because your logic is pretentious.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist If my logic were pretentious, then that would mean I have no basis for believing it's correct -- but I do. Your accusations just prove that you're annoyed by the fact that I'm smarter than you.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy Ha-ha-ha-ha you really don't know me if you think I have a superiority complex. You genuinely don't have common sense.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist I don't need to know you to see that you do -- and it's clearly to my benefit not to know you if seeking the definition of what "common sense" actually means.
Hint: It doersn't mean what you seem to think it means.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy It is to your benefit because I'd probably punch you in the face for trying to switch my wording to make it mean what you want to and telling me constantly I don't know the meaning of the words I am using.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist What's to my benefit? No, seriously, you never said. I think you're just throwing words out of your fingers and hoping something besides complete nonsense results. LOL
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago
@ruadhanmcelroy Whats to your benefit is to get up and wake up and realize how socially awkward and obnoxious you are being.
SuperPolytheist 6 months ago
@SuperPolytheist Whether or not I'm obnoxious is subjective -- but considering how well I get on with my peers socially, I'd say I have sufficient evidence to say your former accusation is quite false, indeed.
ruadhanmcelroy 6 months ago