Full Version: Boteach and Ungar-Sargon Debate on Circumcision

[ratonL]

The Rabbi is kicking rocks. Weak arguments and sometimes totally out of point, dodging the points presented... (¬,¬)

[ratonL]

21:00 Tell me Rabbi, would it make sense to chop a breast off considering that it reduce breast cancer by 50%? Consider breast cancer is way more common than penile cancer. They would still have the other to feed their young, right? So it makes it justifiable no sir that is non-sense.

20:18 The most effective means are education, hygiene and the 'safe-sex' equipment, not chopping baby bits, unless you're a lazy parent.

[ratonL]

14:10 Of course they lose sensitivity. Most will say that's not true, but that's because they never had it any other way. Tell me, how's taking away nerve endings and letting the remaining ones be over-stimulated via constant contact with fabrics thus leading to the development of an outer dried out, thickened and toughened skin, not desensitization?

[ginberryblue]

Thank you Eliyahu for raising public awareness about circumcision and for making such a cogent argument in this debate. I love being a Jew for the same reason you do---that asking the hard questions is not only allowed, but central to Judaism, as is using any resulting insights to push for justice. You go, you Mensch! Thanks for "Cut"!

I was mad as hell, though, that Rav Windbag disrespected everybody there by hogging the time with off-topic rants. The audience had no time for serious Q&A.

[Widgetas]

Human sexuality - I wonder why it's so hard for Boteach to grasp the fact that babies do not have sex.

[Joeloliol]

Eli is so smart and is such an inspiration. He's done the research, asked the right questions and struggled with the tough questions..

In this debate Rabbi Shmuley Boteach essentially pleads ignorance and fills his allotted time to speak with some of the other issues of sexuality that he has spent more time critically questioning instead.

I found Boteach's comments about intact men being less able to be faithful or to control themselves HIGHLY offensive.

Thank you Eli for tackling this issue.

[TinWoodsmanXXX]

Eli's closing was as brilliant as his opening. Both were superb. "Jews have an obligation to think deeply and question..." I am paraphrasing him here. People like him and the woman who started the "Beyond the Bris" movement are really the ones helping Jews think deeply about this subject. Bravo to them both!

[TinWoodsmanXXX]

Eli really did a wonderful job here. Boteach was clearly tilting at windmills of his own making and he had many of his "facts" just plain wrong. The "health benefits" of circumcision disappear when you look more carefully at circumcision. Divorce rates in intact Europe are 25% compared to 50% for circ'ed America. Etc. Etc.  He really was unprepared. He doesn't know anyone who is unhappy about circumcision? He needs to get out more, shout less, and listen more. Therapist indeed.

[SLRfootgrl]

I have extensive education in Evolutionary Psychology. There are a lot of studies on women's promiscuity. Women are attracted to more effeminate, reliable partners when they are not in estrus, and more masculine, physically strong partners when they are ovulating. We are biologically programmed for promiscuity to get the best of both worlds (superior biology and parental investment) for our offspring.

[Egggbutt]

The Rav is out of depths here. When I was an observant conservadox Jew, I often found myself having to do these sorts of ethical acrobatics to justify things like circumcision and even eating kosher. It's arguing in reverse.

The ONLY justification is because it's law. God said so, mehadrin too. The problem for him is, when it's made that simple, it threatens to undermine the ethical foundation of Jewish law and religion itself, because this is SO obviously anti-ethical to any objective person.

[Hugh7777]

1:16:00 Yes, Abraham (reportedly) had one wife for 90 years - and he was (reportedly) not circumcised until he was 99, so circumcision is not a prerequisite for monogamy - or whatever the Rabbi was trying to prove.

[Hugh7777]

Poor Rabbi Boteach! If / Since Eli Ungar-Sargon is right that circumcision amputates tissue that is important for the complete sexual experience, much of his life's work is wasted. No wonder he doesn't want to debate the topic!

[TheWorstWarlock]

This Rabbi couldn't win a debate with my 7 year old niece. Notice the long gaps between his speech. Some might say those are for emphasis, but really it's a an transparent attempt of a desperate man trying to marshal his thoughts. He wasn't ready.

[freedom0speech]

Excellent debate. Eli did a fantastic job. Thanks for the upload.

[nzu1]

Instead of trying to portray Ungar-Sargon as some radical secularist who is threatening religion (abstract misdirection. and false- it is obvious, if you actually listen to what he's saying that he's not), why can't the rabbi stick to the issue and respond-FACTS: it is a dangerous procedure that results in complications and sometimes death, it is an unalterable physical violence done to a pre-autonomous being with life-long consequences--what do you do when your religion proscribes such action?

[TheWorstWarlock]

@nzu1 I agree. Mr Ungar-Sargon approached the matter rationally, but the rabbi deals only in old wives tales. A circumcised penis helps one's community? Seriously? The man was clearly unprepared for such a debate. If he had done some research, he'd have looked like less of a fool. A five minute search on the internet would have shown him the a small fraction of the legions of men who resent the fact that a piece of their penis was removed when they were too young to object.

[nzu1]

I am blown away by how IGNORANT this rabbi is, and how unschooled he is in the art of debate. He doesn't address ANY of the points that Ungar-Sargon makes and chooses instead to use this so called debate as a platform to preach and rail about his own ideas of morality -that, again, have NOTHING to do with the arguments Ungar-Sargon posed. Why can't he simply respond to the well-articulated challenge of what to do when religious law is in conflict with one's own medical or ethical values?!

[TheChallenger2011]

Cliterodectomy is not the same, it is much more severe, Rabbi Shmuley is right when he makes this statement.

BUT, Hoodectomy is homologous to infant male circumcision

and it is illegal on females for good reason!

[DurangosMama]

There can't possibly be anyone who actually thinks the Rabbi "won" this debate, right? Good. Didn't think so.

[TLCTugger]

Objecting to one person's cartoon does not consitute a defense of non-therapeutic amputations from non-conenting victims.

Clitoral amputation is not comparable to foreskin amputation but neither is (already illegal) hood nicking.

Jews somehow are better at sex because they are still here? Every person alive wouldn't be here if even one direct ancestor had died before procreating.

Jewish men DO complain about penile damage at about the same rate as the general cut population.

[alternanick]

That stupid rabbi knows he has no arguments and paints himself into a corner by regurgitating the same irrelevant arguments over and over, saying that amputating sensitive penile tissue somehow imparts great values on men and controls their lustful degeneration and cancerous influence on society.

[RockoMyler]

Boteach isn't winning any fans by antagonizing his audience.

[whatUneverknew]

Does this windbag know that he's supposed to be discussing circumcision? Hello! Not divorce, not Britney Spears, not monogamy, not whether or not Dan Savage wants to destroy religion, not single old women. Talk about a pointless stream of consciousness! Eli wins this "debate" hands down. Not just 'cause his opponent failed so miserably, but 'cause he is arguing in favor of granting men their full rights by ending this bad medical / religious practice and he does so inteligently and concisely

[whatUneverknew]

@whatUneverknew - Even the audience couldn't help but point out that he's wasting time on off topic crap and then he has the bad taste to actually challenge that. OMG > head to desk.

[Widgetas]

@whatUneverknew Welcome to debating with Shmuley Boteach. It took me a minute to recall who he was. Having heard him debate Hitchens etc, I have to wonder why the 'pro' side couldn't field a better candidate for the discussion.

[heinricherlmt]

RIGHT FUCKING HERE!! ::raises hand:: i can tell you that the only time my vagina hasnt been swollen and sore and dry during/after intercourse is when i had sex with an intact man. AND YA KNOW WHAT, MY RABBI?? THE ONE TIME I HAD SEX WITH A INTACT MAN I HAD CRAZY MULTIPLE ORGASMS!! i find it VERY hard to have even a slight orgasm with my current (circumcised) partner. YOU ARE LIVING IN THE DARK, PAL! INTACT IS INFINITELY BETTER!!!!

[MsAhmedka]

@heinricherlmt ,,Muslims are the largest group of circumcisers in the world. Be fair,my Muslim brother,, say No to Muslim circumcision,,the largest circumcisers in the world