NDTV: India Better-off With Partition? -5/5

[tilopa07]

secularism is not possible until all religions are dissolved....till then it would be only hypocrisy

[tilopa07]

@pheeca

I would have accepted your proposal but only if pakistan with all these things would have been better off which it is not.

Sorry.

Islamism is the method to take the country to stone age.I would never want my beloved to be bashed just because she has a bf and i would not like my sister to be stoned because she is independent and free minded.

I am better of with smaller india then a radicalized,backward pakistan.

[pheeca]

Further more I can only tell these ignorant people blaming Quaid-e-Azam for partition to read history of Indian Politics read about what happened in 1911 to Bangal it was congress that nullified Lucknow Pact why didnt they accepted Fourteen Points.It was Gandhi's Pro-Hindu stance that made Jinnah left congress.Ever wonder what happened btw 1937-39 that made Muslim League turn from unpopular to popular party? Read then comment!

[pheeca]

im a Pakistani and am ready to re-unite India and Pakistan just have few conditions

1)The name of the United country would be Pakistan

2)Sharia will be the law of land

3)Pakistani flag will be the flag of the land!

For your information, Pakistani muslims are not in the situation which western media tells that is pure propoganda its like telling world Iraq have WMDs.

[DesiRockMetal]

Seems like a lot of Indians have a lot of misconceptions abobut Bangladesh due to over self-ritiousness. The minorities in Bangladesh are much better off than those in India and Pakistan. I'm aware the some Hindu nationalist groups spread propaganda against Bangladesh to get Hindu votes. Also, Bangladesh has one of the fastest growing economies in the world and it is expected to further accelerate. According to Goldman Sachs, it will be one of the next 11 biggest economies by next decade.

[akram4179]

@DesiRockMetal Its not actually because of negative propaganda... its just lack of awareness about the current situation of Bangladesh. Indians mostly focus on the current affairs of Pakistan and not Bangladesh, resulting in such misconceptions in the general public. Again, I dont think there is any deliberate effort by any significant group to badmouth Bangladesh, we just have outdated news on that front.

[fitcat77]

Partition caused too much suffering. The population exchange in Punjab driven by the lie of the two nation theory (TNT) was tragic. India evolved into a secular democracy with an expanding economy. Pakistan followed the path of Islamic fundamentalism, this is the logical consequence TNT . Ahmedis and Christians are persecuted and there is inter-ethnic conflict. Pakistanis are not inherently bad, given the right environment of a united India they would also be good citizens and prosper.

[TheEsotericDesi]

"India should treat its minorities better"? India treats them WAY BETTER even at times when they deserve some heavy hand to guide them... Look at Kashmir... India's spoiled that tiny minority that's made life miserable for rest of the country...

[TheShadowParliament]

A good point was brought up, again...Partition might have been done to weaken India on purpose. But is Pakistan that bad? The commentators sound like Pakistan's the worst nation in the Middle East, reverse Partition? I think it might happen...sort of unavoidable. Pakistan's in bad shape right now, who's to say that it might get worse. If so...would India have any choice but to reincorperate the region back into itself? A united India, would be very powerful...

[solidarity2205]

I personally feel the 2 nation theory has utterly failed. India has been lucky with a secular democratic setup. Pakistan that claimed Islam i.e. religion was a binding factor got it completely wrong. 1971 Bangladesh creation itself proved the theory useless. The culture of east and west Pakistan was completely different although the religion was the same.

[ourpak1]

@solidarity2205 Yes but you failed to see that India which wants Bangladesh to join India federation after quiting Pakistan Federation was remained dream. & Bangladesh became a soverign country rather than joining India, also Bangladesh was not really in Pakistan plan before partition of subcontinent.

As for partition it happened due to cruelity of Nehru, if he had given Muslims their rights their was still subcontinent.

[rallen888]

@ourpak1

Nobody wants Bang. or Pak to rejoin. We all know the present state of Pak. and bang. So, live and let us live.

Koi dudh ka dhula nahi, it was cruelty of Jinnah. He was offered to become first PM of india, yet he chose to part.

But, i am happy with partition seeing Pakistan and the mentality of the strong extremist forces there.

[salahuddin1187]

History tells us that artificial partitions do not last long. 50 years,60 years, may be 100 years...at some stage the people who share the same culture and geography become united again.

Pakistan is an artificial state. It was created by British to divide India. Just like how Americans are using Shia/ Sunny differences in Iraq today for their own advantage, British used Muslim / Hindu differences back then.

Word INDIA comes from INDUS. Which is a river NOW in PAKISTAN :o)

[tomtomttom]

It is time for Pakistan and Bangladesh to become truly secular states and make the whole subcontinent a secular area where there is no special parallel laws of any kind for any religion. Just one secular legal system where all the religions are equal. That should be the model and that is the only way peace between the different religions is possible.

[sharanprasanth]

poor british guy got in middle

[ratung1]

the british was like what the FUCK!!!we divided u morons painskaingly and you want to damn reverse...FUCK OFF!!i think we in pakistan are much better off..why because in a united india we would have gotten less money in a federation.but thn again we wudnt have to spend on defence and nuclear weapons..we would have lived peacefully.i hope we unite...

[friendmail2010]

we can not deny history present reality but who stop us to unit as southasian as one cultural and one economic united power?

[simon0802]

I think we can not undue it for it would be impractical. For one India is too overpopulated and can't  incorporate PK and BD. It would mean more mouths to feed, more overpopulation pressures, more natural disasters and also India would adopt the political problems of PK like the Afghan refugees and Talabanization which can lead to a greater communal conflict. I do feel however, that if the British took a more responsible role in Partition, we would have avoided the communal savagery altogether.

[radiolaugh]

ok well if unity is not possible what about if we got some land back from Paksitan and Bangladesh then here in a peaceful way ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

[Ankit1027]

i am proud of IIM and IIT...pakis are proud of having plenty Madarsaa...simple....

[MrChandmari]

Interesting debate with whole range of ideas thrown in ... however they stayed clear from one explosive reality that is slowly creeping in...balkanization ... india's north east and pakistan's north west ... if that ever happens it would certainly create a chain reaction .... but that essentially would lead to pre-british india with several smaller entities loosely separated ... although far fetched but not as far as some of u might think ....

[samurainair1]

i think we are better off like dis beacuse of the fact that education level in pakistan is quiet low and the yhave shifted more to islamic ethos from indain ethos..so to assimilate them now is a problem, and indian power balance get shifted ..now well balanced between south ,north and east.

[simon0802]

@samurainair1 What do you mean shifted to an Islamic ethos from an Indian ethos. Are u saying Islam is alien to Indian culture? Are you saying Hinduism is the be all and end all of India? There has been an Islamic ethos in undivided India for centuries. I think it is better to say that Pakistan has shifted from an Indo-Islamic ethos to a Saudi-Wahabi-Taliban ethos. Remember Allama Iqbal urged Indian Muslims remove un-Islamic Tribal Arabism from Islam itself.

[thekatarexpress]

Iqbal's grandson hit the nail of the head, India/Pak lacks a leader with the stature of Jinnah to reunite the nation, so many pathetic leaders with no character....ppl in the sub con need to grow strong and develop a backbone b4 they can be called a true superpower

[thekatarexpress]

What a shame that only the RSS man Mr Vijay, and Mr Singh, were the only people brave enough to support the reunification...that gives me a lesser opinion of Indian ppl, in particular Hindus....so many pathetic ppl in India, who are born failures and born losers

[shivaji999]

Thanks NDTV for bringing great minds together. But, Mr. Tarun have been more optimistic and have spoken in air. I firmly believe that India is in a better position after partition. Imagine if we were having areas like FATA from Pakistan in united India. We would have been still creeping country. Thanks to HE Sardar Patel who has united India. SAARC as strong like European union . Deleting borders is just impossible and as a Indian I oppose this.

[PersonOfBook]

u could have given FATA to afghanistan!

[krenim786]

Partition was the greatest event on the subcontinent for the past 1000 years!

Now after 1000+ years of relative decline Indian civilization(I am sorry I don't consider Islam to be an indian religion or muslim dynasties who took great pride in promoting middle eastern languages like farsi in India and indeed discriminated against their own fellow muslims on grounds that they were not ashraf to be Indians.

Jodha akbar fans can go take a hike!

Mauryan Empire Pt 2 is on the way!!

[aaiyangar]

Thank god for people like you who think this way. India still has hope!!

I believe this too that a Mauryan civilization with progress like in the Gupta / Chola age is in the coming. Enough of this love for the Ghaznis, Ghoris, Mamluks, Khiljis, Tughlaqs, Tamar Lane, Sayyids, Lodhis, Mughals, Surs, Bahamanis, Bijapur, Bidar, berar, Ahmadnagar, Golkona, Nizams, Tippu Sultan etc. Enough of this Love affair with these murders already.

METAL HAILS TO THE COMING OF THE NEW MAURYAN CIVILIZATION!!

[zakuza92]

Hey just to let you know. The Persians who you are talking about hate Islam in reality. Don't you see the protests in Iran. They are an indication of that. The true religion of Persia is zoroastrianism. Islam came through Arabia via Persia to India. The young Persians are renouncing Islam and rediscovering their pre-Islamic origins.

[PersonOfBook]

The shia sect that is followed in Iran is pathetic!

[madhavasathishkumar]

to be realistic, the title question can be answered only if we relive the last 60+ years without a partition.

[kenbatosai]

This discussion lacked historical context. If you think about it now, it is mind boggling to think how Pakistan was created. Could anyone today create a nation on arguments? We have Palestine, Kashmir, and others, all fighting to the right to have their own land. But their oppressor won't budge a single inch. Creation of Pakistan was God willing and it status as independent is also God willing.

[rajeshkumar1]

what do you mean by God willing? Jinhah, Nehru, Churchil... u mean these people were Gods? or it was their will. You have to be able to distinguish between religion and politics, keep them separate. pakistan still a failed state due to its hate india policy. as far i know, every indian accepts pakistan as a independent sovereign country.

[ashutoshmikku]

It was interesting to see different opinions. Yes, i know most in the panel. They represent different spectrum, rightist, centrist, scholar, journalist. You might hear many war mongers in Pakistan that India wants to assimilate Pakistan. But to tell you the truth, most Indians now think that partition happened for the better. Only a very few far right nutskulls dream of Akhand Bharat, greater India.

[saurabhgaur1982]

man people like to dream!! I say have nightmarish scenarios. What crap! Why would anyone want to reverse partition - India for obvious reasons, we do not want to own anyone else's mess. Pakistan for its national pride - the one thing they can hold on to after 62 years of blunders. So why dream? And yes, one more thing - this reporter belongs to the same class of "intellectuals" who asked the Taj hotel hostages their EXACT location and lead to the killing of many of them. Over zealous media..

[rajeshkumar1]

I support the views posted by zakuza92 earlier, that for a peaceful co-existence there is a greater need for tolerance and equality among cultures involved. i afraid current islamic ideologies does not favour undoing the partition.

Personally i feel india is better off with the partition, with its unique breed of muslims who are adapted for a tolerant/secular/peaceful life.

Concerning the open border issues, it will be only a dream untill kashmir conflict is solved.

[aayou]

Part 3:

Given the history of the past 60 some years between our two countries, I for one am not prepared to role the dice to see how things pan out in a reunited India.

If I attempted to be poetic about it, I'd say that the road the utopian India that could have been, had partition not happened, does not pass through where we currently are. And we do not have a map to find our way to it. So, let's just try to make what have, better.

[aayou]

Part 2:

Now to the 64 million dollar question? Are we better off with partition and should we try to reverse it?

I agree with Salman Khurshid. What happened should not have happened. But now that it has happened, we, as citizens of our respective countries, should focus our energies on making our respective countries better, and try to foster better, friendlier relations between us.

[aayou]

Part1:

I am familiar with only 3 of the panelists. Ram Chandra Guha is an eminent historian. Mark Tully was a BBC bureau chief in Delhi. And Salman Khurshid, a minister in various capacities.

Some of the stuff was just emotional. A lot of it was reasonable.

I did not know that the plan for 'non-partition' allowed for the princely states to secede. That was a relevaltion. Given that, that plan was a non-starter.

[zakuza92]

Part 4

Kashif, I'm not criticizing Islam but the some teachings themselves indirectly or directly in some cases, given rise to ignorance and intolerance. Koran is a fine book in general but some knowledge is limited. For example, their concept of God. If you read the Vedas, you'll understand why; in fact you'll understand everything what I'm trying to say.

[zakuza92]

Part 3

Simply put it, Islam and Non-Islam cannot coexist peacefully for a long time. Partition was a "Given" and I'm glad it was soon. You can see several examples from so many muslim countries. Even liberal ones. Some of the Koranic teachings themselves automatically alter your thought process and mentality.

[zakuza92]

Part 2

The reason why I'm saying this is because of the simple fact about nature of muslims. Muslims are bound to be intolerant. The reason lies in some of the teachings of the Koran itself. Clashes would have taken place anyways which would have obviously resulted in the separation from Infidels. Clashes will only stop during Qayamat (Judgement Day).

[zakuza92]

Part 1

I'd say yes. What do you expect? It should be an obvious answer/reply that you'll get from every sensible Indian considering the fact that the state of affairs of both India and Pakistan are far apart. If muslims didn't demand partition before, they would have demanded partition later on after 1947 sometime. At some point, partition would have taken place anyways. Be it now or then.

[olasmal]

a socialist revloution in any one country of the south asia can break the borders and reunite the indian subcontinent with a planned socialist economy. this is the only way out toward peaceful and decent society.