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From: DGJohnPiper
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  • I do fear hell , I pray everyday calling Jesus Christ lord, but How can I know if I am only motivated by fear?

  • @trevor8930 "every" and "day" are two separate words, as in: "I waste my time every day calling jc".

    You can join them into one word, but only if it is an adjective, as in: "it is an everyday occurrence for me to waste my time."

    I hope that you find clarity here on earth, because it is what you got; there is no mystical, ghostly, soul-filled afterlife.

    When it's over, it's over.

    Peace.

  • 'And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear; Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!' Luke 12:4,5.

  • @KingdomSeeker2012 He must both fear God and love God at the same time. The fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom. He MUST always think twice before we sin. But our love should be greater. If we cannot even love a person - any person. We are doomed. Love should conquer the fear but we still need the fear so that we do not to sin.

  • @DGJohnPiper Can you post this as a video response to my video "hell is real"

  • What a great message. So true!

  • @Nobodyreallyatall ::: Sorry, you are impotent.

  • See my video entitled "God's Prison." Don't be deceived...you still have time.

  • "And of some have compassion, making a difference and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

  • Saved means saved from self will self glory and self will. We cant have Gods will Gods glory and love God until we are cleansed from these. Do u want to be cleansed from these? Or do u want hell? No third choice.

  • Paul Washer asked a rhetorical question regarding hell, "if the gates were opened and God gave them an ultimatum, 'Bow before me or remain in Hell' they would slam the gate close"... sounds nice and would correlate witht the doctrine of Totaal Depravity, but Paul Washer's wrong as the story of the Rich Man & Lazarus says otherwise.

  • @apollos6640 The rich man didnt say he wanted heaven but to get out of hell or at least his brothers not to come there. He wanted relief from the pain is all that is stated..

  • True the people woulod not prolly slam the gate closed but would not truly bow out of love and resent the God that made them bow. SUre they give some outward token but inwardly theyd hate God and hate heaven and heaven would become hell to them.

  • @ChazRalls OK Bye!

    My mission continues.

  • @ChazRalls If you can stand the clear thinking of somebody who is much more together and articulate than I on the subject, try typing in "YT ZOMGitsCriss atheist umbrella"

    Of course, it's up to you to decide, but I think it does us all good to be challenged, especially when we hold firm beliefs which are unmovable.

    I look at religious vids - maybe one day there will be proof of god's existence. I don't look for it, but if it is there I will recognise it.

    Imaginary friends? Why?

  • @ChazRalls I don't condemn people at all - I wish them all the best for their lives in a non-hypocritical way. I find joy in helping others.

    But the reason I tell people that christianity is wrong is because I want to see an end to it; to see people taking responsibility for their lives, not passing their faults onto a fictional dead palestinian.That is an immoral concept, because if you do something bad, it is your own responsibility.

    Hope your "aid" was not used.

    Peace and clarity I wish you.

  • @ChazRalls My viewpoint is my own - though it is shared by many people.

    I believe that nothing happens when you die, and that therefore this life is the most important thing there is. Here and now is all the time that you have got my friend. The religious people devalue this life by expecting another, magical one. Read my posts, you will learn that I am not a person who wishes ill to anyone. I would never threaten as you have done!

    Look at what you said - the words of a terrorist!

  • @ChazRalls Christianity is a club of the willfully ignorant. We have your Bible as proof of its failure. It fails morally by sanctioning genocide, celebrating infanticide and tolerating slavery. It fails logically with self contradiction and historical inaccuracies. This fool Piper just runs his mouth non-stop and says absolutely nothing. Wake up and face the fact that there is not one iota of proof your fantasy is real. An idiot citing anecdote and delusions as proof is pathetic.

    Peace.

  • @StrumstickJoe The Bible is not proof of its failure. God's wrath is coming VERY SOON. I'm not even joking.

  • @lifeInAFallenWorld22 If you love something you fear you are a sado-masochist. Religion is demeaning to the human race, with its primitive belief in a creator and "lord" to whom you must grovel; and its assumption of guilt to control the mind of the vulnerable by calling it a soul and threatening it with eternity.

    You should beware the irrational, however seductive. Disbelieve the 'transcendent' and people who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself.

    peace on earth

  • @StrumstickJoe Religion is demeaning to the human race. There is a difference between religion and truth. I know that God's wrath is coming very soon. I know it with all my heart and soul.

  • @lifeInAFallenWorld22 "Truth" is demeaning to the human race if it involves grovelling daily to an imagined deity - in the hope that he will allow you to grovel for eternity in his excruciatingly bland theme park.

    For goodness' sake stop wishing for the end - this life is so good (if you're lucky) - and it will end when it will end - it seems like you can't wait to bring it on!

  • @StrumstickJoe Jesus is NOT an imagined deity and his WRATH is coming!

  • @lifeInAFallenWorld22 You're not listening, are you?

    You're going to have to read it all again!

  • @lifeInAFallenWorld22 BTW anger (popularly known as "wrath" when god is guilty of it!) is one of the very lowest of human emotions. It occurs when you get an unpleasant surprise - so tell us all - how come does your god get surprised?

    Don't you think that "he" was imbued with anger by the humans who invented him?

    He was given a lordship by primitives who only understand a system of slaves and masters.

  • @StrumstickJoe no. nothing would surprise God. Jesus exists outside of time but will hold his judgment on everyone. why are you saying he gets surprised??

  • @lifeInAFallenWorld22 Anger is one of the very lowest of human emotions. Anger occurs when you get an unpleasant surprise - so tell us all - how come does your god get surprised?

    Sorry to repeat, but you weren't listening.

    Anger is a weakness - a human weakness.

  • @TooraLoorah I would say don't take the advice of ChazRails; it will not make you feel better, and it will make you appear retarded if you start crying out to a mystical being in the middle of the High Street!

    What you should do is live your life for now (because that's all any of us have) try to do your best for those around you first, then yourself second.

    It is liberating to take responsibility for yourself, and not rely on imaginary friends.

    Live in peace without the fear of religion!

  • @strumstickjoe are you trying to convince me or yourself? brother, their is a after life and any one who has ever seriousl walked with God knows it. They know it because the power of the Holy Spirit starts working in their life. They also start witnessing miracles. You can try to reason your way out of it, but deep down in your soul you know its true. Thats why most people who choose to not believe hate the Bible so much.... its convicting.

  • @icedupentertainment 3) “Thats why most people who choose to not believe hate the Bible so much.... its convicting. (convincing?)”

    I do not hate the bible. I ridicule it, and I know it to be contradictory. Convincing?? Read it!! It’s nonsense!

    Get yourself a life where you can do some good for the world.

    Bible thumping is useless and gives credence to terrorists.

  • @icedupentertainment 2) “You can try to reason your way out of it, but deep down in your soul you know its true.” I know that everything in religion is false – from the bottom of my heart. You only think that because you are unable to conceive of someone being happily outside your weird beliefs. And I haven’t got a soul to know your “truth” deep down inside of!

  • @icedupentertainment 1) I noticed I hadn’t honoured you with a reply to this: “are you trying to convince me or yourself? brother, their is a after life and any one who has ever seriousl walked with God knows it. They know it because the power of the Holy Spirit starts working in their life. They also start witnessing miracles.”

    I don’t believe in the holy sprite, nor recognise the idea of an afterlife or walking with god. “They” start witnessing miracles because they are duped.

    

  • "If you don't love Christ, you go to Hell." Sorry, but to me this sounds like a psykopath. But who am I, a wretched sinful mortal, to dare judge the moral and intentions of a supernatural holy beeing who loves me so much that he just have to punish me for ever for not believing and loving him back? Is faith without fear really possible? How does anyone not fear the wrath of a God and Hell in order to be truly saved? By turning in to a hypocrite or get brainwashed? Or what?

  • @Toggen62 I think faith without fear is possible when you reach a state of hopelessness where you realize that Jesus is the only one who you can hope in. When you finally realize that, you see how beautiful He is and then you're truly saved.

    Also, that quote doesn't sound so bad when you understand that you will only have true joy, life, and happiness in Jesus. It's like saying, "If you don't want to be in a relationship, you stay single" or "If you don't like food, you die"

    Does that help?

  • @HenrikAlexM Thank you for trying, but if I have to reach a state of hopelessness beyond the fear of Hell, in order to believe in the beauty Jesus ---.

    Whether or not a horrible quote doesn't "sound" so "bad" if I just understand, finally realize (or just simply accept?) that it's only through Jesus I can hope for and experience true joy and salvation, I'm affraid that all the biblical hellish "facts" that just doesn't make heavenly sense to me, needs to ---. Sorry.

  • @Toggen62 I see, what "biblical hellish facts" don't make sense to you?

  • This is a lie. the fear of God led me to Christ. the fear of hell led to me Christ. I eventually fell in love with God after.

  • @icedupentertainment Do not fear death, for it is final and it hurts you not at all.

    Make of this life what you can, because it is all that will happen to you.

    It will be good if you can leave the world a better place than you found it.

    Taking up religion gives you nothing at all - it is all fantasy and wish-thinking.

    Don't pray, it doesn't work and there is no-one listening.

    The world is wonderful, but it is not magic.

    Peace and consideration.

  • @StrumstickJoe your retarded sir...there is a God and i know for a fact, he spoke to me and he showed me the visions Acts 2:17 talks about. i know exactly how this world is going to end and exactly how heaven is going to be..all that i believe in no God, bullcrap, illuminati, satanists, witchcraft, all those things are real, and if the devil exixts then there must be a God. just know the mark of the beast is coming soon. right hand or forehead, i advise you not to get it so u wont go to hell

  • @MrFreestyle89 It's amazing how often the religious, perhaps from a feeling of the real truth at the back of their minds, use words, expressions or accusations that I would be tempted to use on them, were I not so polite. For instance: a person who believes in primitive magical beings, and quotes a contradictory anthology of miscellaneous myths, calls ME retarded.

    Your heaven, Sir, were it to be real, would be hell to me!

    I don't want your beliefs, the world won't move on until they are gone!

  • @StephenPaulBradshaw The bible contains no accuracy whatsoever. It is a plagarised collection of myths which seemed plausible at the time, but only because nobody knew any better.

    Fortunately we do know better now, and we don't believe in magic any more.

    We can live our lives free of this need for constant invigilation, and free of the need for a hellish afterlife of constant grovelling.

    Peace.

  • @StrumstickJoe...the words of someone who has never actually studied the Bible to any real extent at all it seems. Such ridiculous sentences as "The Bible contains no accuracy whatsoever" when it's obviously full of facts and historical evidence (i,e, Israelite enslavement in Egypt, Pontius Pilate being Roman Governor of the province around 33AD to name 2 of, of i dunno....several thousand!) show your opinions are terrifically flawed in the reasoning you have employed to arrive at them...

  • @Peacelord2002 2) ..then pray: Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray that you cure them all, Amen.

    Let me know if it works

  • @Peacelord2002 2) 1) Oh yes – the bible is false alright – but don’t take my word – test it: Read:Mark 11:24:, the words of Jesus himself:

    Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours… Then pray…

  • @Peacelord2002 I should mention to you that some pretty fundamentalist jewish archeologists have been searching for a long time for evidence of the exodus, and even with their most wishful thinking, they haven't found it (not even mt sinai) They have failed to find any evidence of the kingdom of david.

    But even if they had... ? So what? Divinity remains unproven. The same is the case for JC - no evidence at all for his life, but even if there were..

    None of it means anything.

  • Love it! John Piper, a Calvinist who believes in Predestination preaching Conditional Atonement based on works salvation. Doesn't get any clearer than that. ???????? Well unless of course you desire logic as you desire God!

  • @Dwrancho144

    Do you believe people die, serve their time in hell, and then go to heaven?

  • GREAT video

  • "You Can't Scare People Into Heaven"

    This is ironic coming from Piper. He teaches that the alternative to heaven is hell.

  • @UrukEngineer

    It is the alternative. That is not the same as *emphasising the reality of Hell as a motive* for loving God. Piper has the emphasis exactly right. Heaven is not a negative thing - the state of not-being-in- Hell: it is what we are *meant to* enjoy, perfect fulfillment. Heaven is Heavenly because God is there. God is so desirable that all pleasures on earth are nothing - we are too easily satisfied :( "God is easy to please, impossible to satisfy" :)

  • @5355vbxjbj76rvn "God is so desirable that all pleasures on earth are nothing"

    Why then are people scared of dying? Why not all go over to Mecca and proclaim Jesus as the saviour. You would all be in heavan within a few minutes?

    Is it because you don't actually believe this rubbish?

  • Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.

  • @k0smon Count me out of wanting to go to any heaven! I can't imagine anything more hellish!

    As for wanting to die - well, we can't avoid it! Nobody gets out alive! ;-)

    So let us, unlike the religious, accept that, and live a good life in peace while we're here.

  • @StrumstickJoe ::: Good advice, as far as it goes. Since you have no clue as to what the afterlife is about, download "Life in the World Unseen" from the internet. A fresh perspective on your future is needed.

  • @k0smon "...Since you have no clue as to what the afterlife is about," Really?

    It may have escaped your notice, but I said I don't believe in it. Did you not get that?

    If I don't believe in it, then how would I know "what it is about"?

    The remarkable thing is that you seem to be implying that you DO KNOW what it is about.

    I'll bet you know "what god wants" as well, don't you?

    Well, you stay happy in your knowledge. I honestly don't want your "fresh perspective".

  • @StrumstickJoe ::: Just because you don't believe in it does not mean it isn't there. Why do you think it is wise to stick your head in the sand and enforce ignorance on yourself?

  • @k0smon One of the surest ways to “enforce ignorance on yourself” is to follow & believe the 3 bibles of the main religions. They were, by definition, written at a time of complete ignorance (in tectonics; bacteria; meteorology; cosmology and the rest) – and therefore written in ignorance. Superstition was all those people had – understandable - but it is hard for me to figure why modern people still hold on to it.

    There is no soul (except metaphorically), and no afterlife.

    Become real!

    Peace.

  • @StrumstickJoe ::: Agreed about the bibles. But my interest in psychic phenomena and life after death has convinced me there is a soul and life continues. Look at the numerous cases of NDEs, psychic contact with 'dead' people, ghosts, etc. Experts who have studied NDEs (Kubler-Ross, Morse, Moody) all agree that there is evidence to support the continuation of life. My info says that religion has no bearing on your status in the afterlife, it depends on how you have treated other people.

  • @StrumstickJoe spoken like someone who has clearly never read any one of those 3 "bibles" (?! There's only one Bible, but...w/e).

  • Excellent! Thanks for sharing. God bless!

  • Lets all ways in all things and by all means focus on Christ and Christ only always.

  • If you are not satisfied with 'biblical' answers to heaven and hell, download free "Life in the World Unseen" from the internet.

  • I got soo wasted with Jesus the other night. He starting flashing his wang a traffic. He's such a kidder :P

  • Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.

  • @k0smon what about people who commit suicide

  • @rabnif1 They are running away from physical or mental problems where they see no other way out. There are hospitals in the afterlife that will help them heal.

  • God's wrath scared me out of Hell! The Son of God loved into eternal Life, in the Kingdom of Heaven! 

  • The reason why I sought after God again was because I was terrified of hell. Then I realized that I was doing what I was doing out of fear and a way of soothing my conscience, like going to youth groups and sharing my supposed "faith" with others. I figured that I was bearing fruit, so I was born again and therefore saved, instead of being a false convert. Then by God's grace I realized that I had no genuine love for God, so I prayed and He has been faithful. I'm starting to love Him. =)

  • This sounds awfully judgmental to me. Is Piper saying it is impossible to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and accept Him as your savior without desiring Him all the time?

  • Look at all the sheep! I wonder if all these people realize the stupid book they blindly follow written by a MAN says the earth is flat, 6000 years old, revolves around the sun and says that rape, murder, torture, and slavery is acceptable under certain circumstances.  What a nice guy! Yes, it makes perfect sense that some random idiot appeared out of nowhere "poof" and then one day decides to create the whole entire universe out of nothing.. LOL talk about batshit crazy idiots.

  • @Chk6666S I have only one thing to say to you. If me as a believer of God is incorrect about him exisisting what have I got to lose when I die? If you as a disbeliever of God is incorrect about him not existing what have you got to lose when you die? Just think about this for a moment please? I pray you will :) God Bless!

  • Do you think Ted Haggard had sex with this guy as well?

  • He's right. Few people want to go to hell and fewer yet want to go to Heaven.

  • god bless you you are an agel and a blessin to us john piper

  • @PowahPoint If you hear the whole thing what he is saying with that statement is that you can scare people about hell but that won't make them desire God in such a way that they will believe the Gospel and end up in heaven.

    Example, just b/c someone doesn't want to end up working at a bad job all of his or her life does not mean that they love school and desire to study with all of their heart and work really hard instead of hanging out with friends or w/e. Hope this helped. Jesus loves you.

  • PWAHAHAHA!!!! LooooooL @ 0:37 'Fresh Virgins?!?!' HAHAHAHA!!!!

  • @EXALTEDDIRT you fool, Piper is a true man of God.

  • Hey I just wanted to say, bad things have happened in the world and I understand that you agree with Theodicy, but Jesus Christ went through a billion times more misery than the world did. He didn't come to bring peace to the world, instead he came to die for man's sin and to seperate his people from those that don't accept him. Also, you just said that you didn't love Christ, do you think that you or any of us deserve anything BUT misery? But God's people (like me) find unlimited joy in Christ.

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  • No he doesn't. He is talking about the true fruits or signs of salvation. We are human and make mistakes, hence GRACE! But what is your focus? Christ, or your wants, or other idols?

  • My focus is that I know I am loved by Almighty God without condition or caveat. ANd since He is perfect love, He has cast out my fear, hence, I don't need to listen to people who don't know any more than I do, tell me of their rules and regulations. Piper is making money just like every other evangelist on television/radio. And they make a spectacle out of faith. Just "Be stil and know that I am God." But they seem incapable of keeping their "holy mouths" closed.

  • i saw hell, experienced it myself. couldn't get out. but conviction of my sin by God, led me to repentance, and repentance unto salvation because of God's Grace! it's God's conviction, not man's scare tactics. amen!

  • Repentance and faith is used synonymously in scripture. If you truly repented which is a turning to God then you are saved. If you were convicted of your sins then you felt remorse, but the conviction isn't what saved you but the trust in Christ.

  • no, it was the conviction of sin, which is a gift to recieve because no man can convict, only God, and it is also a gift to trust in Christ.

  • why did I get TWO thumbs down? stupid athiest. anyway...

  • I believe in Karma.

  • 2 Corinthians 5:11, "Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men..."

    When I was 5 years old, my Father shared with me this fear of God and I did not want to Go to Hell and knew Jesus was the only way (or Deliverer) out of an eternity in Hell. I received Cjhrist as my Saviour at the age of 5. I did not understand whjat loving Jesus meant or all the evils of my sin, but I did know I wanted to spend an eternity in Heaven.

    ....

  • ...Am I now not saved because the motivation for my saving faith was the fear of God? No I am a born agaimn believer and I know that I am spending my etermity in God's Heaven.

    John Piper needs to understand that simple childlike faith in Christ as the Deliverer is an effective motivator to lead someone to salvation

  • When you use God as a means to an end you insult His mercy and Grace because you take advantage of the cross to get a "get out of hell free" card. Jesus died so that all who sought righteousness could be made right with God and their relationship with Him would no longer be hindered by their sin. We are saved by grace through faith. We can't have faith in someone we don't know or someone that we don't even have an interest in.

  • PhilG- hi, Piper explains what he means when he says, "you can't scare people into Heaven". Think of someone you know is not saved. Now ask them if they want to burn in hell. Their answer will be no. Because they said no, does that mean they are saved? Does being afraid of Hell, in and of itself, prove ones salvation? No. Now ask them if they love the Lord. Answer = no. How many people grow up in church afraid of hell, but with no love for the Lord? too many.

  • Phil. 1st point. I find at times what Piper is saying isn't always clear. He's not saying that you can't get saved that way, but if you profess to get saved that way then show no obedience or desire to follow Christ then you're not saved.

    I was seven years old, and have a very familiar story to you. I realized that if I was to die I'd land in hell. Nothing else was pressed on my mind at that time, that I can recall. I cried to Christ for salvation, and I realized He died for me.

  • I love my Saviour, I tremble at how often I let Him down, and how much sin I commit on a daily basis, but I long to see Him, to be with Him, for all eternity. God can use many methods to lead a person to His son, but the common thing in every salvation story is a person realizing their need and trusting in Christ. We so often get caught up in a person needing a fancy story and as Macarthur says "believing is hard". Oh that's so wrong. Christ compelled people to come to HIm as a child.

  • Salvation can be summed up in those words "Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to your cross I cling."

  • and that is what I was saying about myself. I trusted in Christ Alone.

  • @RedHatBlueShoe The evidendce that you Trusted in Christ alone is that you are countining to Trust in Christ alone now and more so perhaps.

  • Torch, Thanks for your empathetic words. I appreciate your comment.

  • I offer no evidence for Christianity. God needs none to save his people. Paul did not come with persuasive arguments but simply preached that the Son of God died on a cross and rose again. He preached this message because it was the word of God, and if he didn't, their faith would not be in God but in the arguments of Paul. If you're not born again, you hate God and stand condemned because you do not believe. I offer you no argument. God calls all men to repent and believe the gospel. Be saved!

  • Woo hoo! I'm damned! Bring on the brimstone!

  • great video!!!!

  • Organized religion is nonsense... ESPECIALLY any religion based on the fictional "bible."

    It addles minds with false promises, incites horrific acts of bigotry & violence, and limits humanity's intellectual progress.

    The sooner people stop believing in fairy tales which were crammed into their heads before they were mature enough to reason, the better.

    NO evidence; NO god. It's that simple.

  • there is SO much evidence that God exists... you choose to block it out. I know you don't believe the Bible, but in Romans it says, "He has shown himself to EVERY MAN".

    Keep in mind... at the judgement seat of Christ, you WILL be accountable for EVERYTHING you've heard regardless of how it affected you emotionally or not.

    It would be better had you NEVER heard the gospel of God, then to have heard and to deny its truth.

  • dead: I have been reviewing religious literature and the things put forth by apologists which they deign to be "evidence" for most of my four decades alive. Not one person has provided and argument or real material proving a "god" exists.

    Your second paragraph is nonsense based on fiction.

    You claim the "bible" is true? Then how do you account for the fact that the character 'god" does NOT know bats are not birds?

  • God cannot be put in a scientifical "box" of explanations. Since when has science been the be all and end all of everything??God ceases to be GOD of the universe whose said to be out of our comprehension once he is "explained with evidence". I believe creation is "evidence" per se but if that doesn't do it for you, then i also believe God cannot be proven nor disproven. Therefore, you can explain God as much as you can but it will always just come down what you believe rather than explain.

  • Hi, Michelle: Actually, the concept of "god" CAN be considered scientifically. Stephen Hawking has stated that if a being we humans would call a "god" exists it could not be supernatural in nature. It would be required to behave according to the physical laws of our universe. Hence, it cannot be the "god" of any religion based on the "bible."

    Speaking of, have you read the book cover to cover? I find that most religious adherents have not. They just follow the lead of pastors & preachers.

  • Fantastic!

  • Lol! That's original! Well, guess you got the last word. Take it easy...

  • eneinludeX...not worth replying to, waste of time.

  • Opinions are like assholes, brother.

  • You mistake pity for compassion and an ultimatum for salvation. More importantly you mistake a supernatural mythological superstition for reality and factual truth.

  • et720...we are ALL sheep. If you tell me you aren't following a particular direction in your life then you are a "blind sheep". The arrogance and shallowness of the so-called "open-minded" is astounding. Why can't you be 'Open-minded" to the possibilities other than YOUR own thoughts, desires, and opinions. I'm sure your savior wears designer suits and speaks with persuation also - from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Well - good for you, although some would classify him as "close-minded".

  • Savior at 1600 Penn Ave? You must be joking.

    The President is an EMPLOYEE of the people, like every other elected official. Stop pretending your lack of favor with the election or presidential policy has ANYTHING to do with the lack of validity of your supernatural mythological superstition.

    Do U believe in the Antichrist nonsense?

    Are you a young earth creationist?

    Don't deflect form the fact that you have no compelling reasoned logic or evidence for your supernatural magic.

  • Do U believe in the nonsense that Matter+Time+Chance=Human life? How can something come into being from nothing, by itself? 4 something to create itself, it would have to be before it was, thereby violating the most basic law of knowledge, Its totally irrational & a violation of the law of non-contradiction. Something cannot be before it was nonbeing. Don't deflect from the fact that u have no compelling reasoned logic for your irrational & illogical understanding of the origin of logic & reason

  • No as a matter of fact I don't believe something came from nothing, nor do I believe in chance, nor do I believe the sum total of the equation is human life.

    Three strikes, you're out.

    Do you mean to suggest the alternative to the supernatural causation is nothing at all? Adorable false dichotomy you've created for yourself.

    I'm sorry, the origin of logic and reason? What does that have anything to do with the origin of space time and matter?

  • "Do you mean to suggest the alternative to the supernatural causation is nothing at all? Adorable false dichotomy you've created for yourself."

    What do you suggest? If you can't provide an alternative, then there's no false dichotomy.

    The origin of logic and reason points to the existence of an abstract Creator of logic and reason. At least I think that's what he was driving towards.

  • Oh I understand what he was driving for, I'm simply pointing out it doens't make sense.

    You see, I'm of the opinion that everything is natural. So what predated our universe was some unknown natural phenomenon. Note: unknown.

    I would not assume a supernatural beyond the natural because there is no evidence and it begs the question"What created the supernatural?"

    You can't claim the supernatural created itself since something able to create itself is how we got here in the first place.. .

  • How can everything be natural & u not understand & believe in chance? All arguments for ultimate authority r inherently circular arguments. U have your own form of "faith" by presupposing "natural" causality of the universe.If anything exists now then something has always existed. Something is eternal or nothing could exist now.Therefore u must believe that matter & natural causality r eternal? That is your statement of faith, your ultimate authority & u use this presupposition to prove itself.

  • Nothing created the supernatural. The idea that a self existent eternal being that has the power of being within Himself, dependent on nothing outside of Himself to exist & is eternal violates no formal concept of logic whatsoever! We have a real and logical cause for the universe (the God of the Bible) while your system is inherently flawed, requires a supernatural level of probability to have happened through natural means and could not have created itself without an outside supernatural force

  • I am not claming ultimate authority. I beleive in probability and chaos theory, not chance. Cause and effect still hold true, if the cause of our natural universe was simply another natural phenomenon.

    It is calming the supernatural which violate logic. It's just as valid to say nature creates nature as to say supernatural is self created.That is not the issue here.

    The natural is observed so no faith required, while the supernatural is not, there is no justification to just assume it exists

  • You'll never admit to it but I think its clear to all those reading along that to say "the cause of our natural universe was simply another natural phenomenon" is in fact a statement of faith. Your atheistic materialism presuppositions will simply not allow you to consider anything beyond your definition of what is "natural" and you assume a "natural universe" based on the same presuppositions.

  • Who are you to tell me what I'll "never" admit to?

    To state that cause and effect works is not at all a statement of faith.

    Cause and affect are natural universal laws, are they not? The answer for what causes lightning is the same for what causes an expansion of space-time? A series of natural phenomenon.

    Nature is not presupposition, nature exists. I'm simply extrapolating on established evidential prescient of cause and effect.

    Supernatural is the presupposition and baseless assumption.

  • It is not a presupposition that supernatural doens't exist, it is simply that there is no evidence or reasoned logic that show it need exist at all.

    Your theology is simply another mythology. Your faith is simply gullibility, belief without and in-spite of a lack of evidence or reasoned argument.

    Fear the supernatural?? I see no reason to acknowledge it's existence. HOW do you?

  • EntinludeX: You presuppose a naturalistic framework that you ultimately cannot account for.

    Please listen to this video. The very mouth you're using to deny God will one day be used to confess Christ as Lord. I'm asking you, please listen to what John Piper is saying. Eternity is at stake.

  • Aricandisgood: A naturalistic framework is ultimately verifiable, did pite what we do not know everything about it, nature exists. A supernatural framework is not verifiable, so it is you who presuppose a supernatural framework that you ultimately cannot account for. Again, NATURE exists.

    With my very mouth I confess that every supernatural deity, yours or otherwise is but a mythological superstition. Stakes require factual evidence, of which you have none for anything supernatural. Wake up.

  • The debate here is whether or not we exist in a "closed" framework. You presuppose that we exist in a purely naturalistic framework (one which contains the meaning of itself within itself) and you've completely ruled out any supernatural intervention.

    I'm a Christian because God woke me up, rather raised me from the dead. EntinludeX, in your current state you're alienated from God and under His wrath unless you repent and believe on Christ's finished work on the cross.

  • And "Nature" tells us that life does not come from none-life, information does not come from none-information, therefore your own self-awareness (your existence) presupposes awareness of God (Romans 1:18-21). You see I was once a lot like u and I suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. Man aught to recognize God, there is no excuse for him if he does not. The reason for his failure to recognize God lies exclusively in him. It is due to his willful transgression of the very law of his being.

  • Actually nature tell us that organic chemistry does come from inorganic chemistry. Your definition of "information" is undoubtedly so vague as to be useless, therefore your conclusions on self-awareness are utterly fallacious and dependant on circular logic.

    "All information came from god, you are aware of information, therefore god exists." idiot.

  • That is NOT what I said. You are aware of self which presupposes your awareness of God.

    So, are you defining organic chemistry as "life" or dodging the facts of nature? Information is real, abstract and immeasurable. In nature DNA can not be made without it and yet DNA's sole purpose is to provide it. Information can not exist without life and life can not exist with out information and therefore "atheistic naturalist materialism" can not explain it apart from God without using circular logic

  • Being self aware does NOT presuppose an awareness of god. That's utter nonsense.

    DNA is CHEMICAL. It's information is real, specific and measurable. Again as I mentioned before your definition of "information" is so vague as to be utterly useless. You're speaking utter nonsense.

    What is "atheistic naturalist materialism"?? Now you're making terms up? DO you by chance mean Naturalistic methodology?

    Natualistic methodology explains DNA just fine. Perhaps you're simply ignorant of genetics

  • Your attempts to intimidate your way out of your own failures to understand what nature clearly teaches (that life does not come from non-life) will not work. THAT is utter nonsense. U know (by nature) that because there is life something living created it. What source of information assembled DNA so that DNA could reproduce information?

  • Is there a law that says I can't make up terms? Just saying Atheistic materialism fails to convey the means through which your system "works" and, from your response, u CLEARLY understood that so why argue? Is it just a bad attempt to deflect from the issues at hand?

    Earlier you felt free to define biblical terms apart from biblical context, inconsistency is a sign of a failed argument. I seem to be the only one defining my terms and supporting my claims in this discussion.

  • "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." (Jn 16;13)

    "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5;17)

  • et720, Piper is explaining how the person who truly comes to Christ, believing, and receives His forgiveness and the second birth is radically changed and becomes a new person inwardly.This person will love GOD now, truly love HIM, because He has forgiven him much! All believers have received The Holy Spirit, Who gives us knowledge of truth so that we can say Amen! to what John Piper is saying, not because it is pure jargon but because the Spirit confirms in us that he is speaking GOD'S TRUTH!!!

  • Reason is antithetical to faith.

  • That is a lie & what u define as "faith" is not how the bible defines it. Your own understanding of "reason" is dependant upon your own non-biblical understanding of the term faith (i.e. assuming something to be true that defies or is opposed to reason). Without some understanding of a origin or cause for reason & logic (i.e. God) then you assume (by"faith") that reason & logic must be true & eternal without any basis. How did the universal laws of logic & reason come about?

  • Lets place the term "faith" in the biblical context of (1 Pet 1:3-5) 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through FAITH for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

  • Why are we using Biblical context?

    Ressurections from the dead??

    What is the relevance of a book of supernatural mythology to understanding anything?

  • I don't define words through the Bible or any Holy text, I have a dictionary for that, thank you very much.

    What does the supernatural have anything to do with reason and logic?

  • YOU come here to talk to Christians using a profoundly wrong understanding of terms like "faith" AND you get to lay down your own law that says you get to use biblical terminology but will not use the bible to define your terms and I'm not suppose to provide you with the correct biblical context and definition for the word? Why don't people like you start using the Latin form of the word agnostic to describe yourselves? Ignoramus.

  • NO I simply am not acknowledging the definition of faith you speak of and thus am specifically AVOIDING biblical terminology as the word has meanings in a grander, more practical context.

    Do you need a dictionary??

    You simply pressume the Bible's context is correct and the only one that need apply.

    Why are YOU ignoring the definition of words in any other context? Why are you ignoring THE DICTIONARY you ignoramus.

  • boring

  • I have been studying the validity of hell and its origins, it goes against everything and all loving God is against. There are various bible passages I could quote saying there is nothing that could separate man from Gods love I am so glad that you are looking deeper into text, and if God does not save all then surely I am giving God too much credit

    Please Comment People

    This is my quest for the truth, I am not looking to offend or hurt anyone, just don't reply with hate, it is love I listen to.

  • Then lost ; There is no validity to these claims. It is just to scare peasants into following orders. We have science now , and critical thinking. Many people are seaching for a spiritual life , which transcends materialism and the search for idle pleasure seeking. These Christian fundamentalists , with their ideas about invisible Jewish zombies , and talking snakes are not worthy of intelligent consideration. They are for Arkansas tire fitters, not people who went to school.

  • To what right do you make these claims with such certainty, and the view of religion and science being incompatible, is very primitive More advance thinking takes into all accounts and views everything despite societies views, (these are my opinions and am am not assuming you don't look at things with an open mind) My claims do have some validity. "It is just to scare peasants into following orders" My argument was against Hell, so what is this method you speak about manipulation of peoples fear

  • I can speak with certainty about some things , such as creationism and the account of Genesis as being demonstrably false , backed by all the scientific evidence which is freely available. Join the church ,or our loving heavenly father substitute has created a torture chamber into which he will fling you for all eternity. Better sign up and start handing over the cash boy. Sorry , I would prefer to see the tiniest shred of evidence before I took that seriously. But , hey , that`s just me.

  • Amen! What a wonderful message! May God continue blessing John Piper.

  • THis was a very good message. Scaring people to love Christ is what makes people question almost every Americans Christianity. Everyone thinks we just want out of hell. I want a relationship with YHWH and his one true Son that saved me. Sure I don't want to go to hell, but God's mercy and love are what is giving me life with him for all eternaty. I'm sure a lot of people in hell didn't even believe and or know it existed. We must show God's love and mercy, and stop trying to scare people.

  • If Jesus said something, I believe it. Jesus talked about Hell and even mentioned fire being there. Jesus rose from the dead and proved that he is God. To disbelieve what he said is to rebel against him.

  • I heard the arguments a thousand times, they are just not good ones.

  • Read what Christ said about Hell. It is not pagan.

  • wrong wrong wrong

    I don't believe in Jesus cause I'm scared of hell. I believe in Jesus cause the gospel is beutiful. I'm sorry, you absolutely cannot scare ppl into heaven, it's impossible, it's not the way God set things up. I hope I'm not coming across as rude its just that, the belief that you can scare people in hell IS sending millions of them there, period.

  • 1 John 5:3

    For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

  • you must not know John Piper. Listen to his full sermons

  • False...

  • The problem is, as sinners we rationalize and rewrite the bible in our own minds so as to practice what we lust while hoping that we will still get into heaven. Many preachers will prey upon this weakness by preaching what we want to hear as opposed to what we need to hear. We then begin to hold a hope that as long as we support their business...uhh, ...I mean their ministry that we are somehow buying, I mean tithing our way into heaven. How crazy is that?