Professor Richard D. Wolff - Occupy Wall Street (part one of three)

[TheRacistsMustDie]

@TheSplashMan @studentofmises still institutional problems with how to amass enough capital to start a business if you're a plain Joe Sixpack just like your pals. The 2nd question was if it isn't undemocratic to impose a so called “democratic business system”. The answer to that is that it's about as undemocratic as it was to impose democracy on Iraq or to impose the right to a fair trial, but the alternative is a sort of Hobbesian Leviathan in the business world.

[TheRacistsMustDie]

@TheSplashMan @studentofmises If I may give some additional remarks. 1stly concerning the question "why don't people do it out of themselves then?". To begin with: there are already such companies on a small scale both in the US & Argentina. I can also respond to the question with another question, namely: why didn't people start capitalist enterprises out of themselves in e.g.800 A.D.? The answer is that the right institutions weren't available & that is the same here. There are simply said

[11dimention11]

If you know me then this is not meant to be taken seriously. "An Evening with Professor Wolff" pt3 (1of2) - Richard D Wolff video still frame” the kind professor seams to be postured like someone else in history the people didn’t like to much :o)

[studentofmises]

What is stopping any group from creating work places where the workers decide everything? Why does everyone have to abide by those rules for it to work? Lead by example and show the rest of the world that his idea works and is best for society. There are plenty of unemployed that would join this system. So instead of going around talking about it just do it.

[TheSplashMan]

@studentofmises Because capitalist companies have higher production efficiency since they treat their workers as cogs in a cogwheel. In general any democratic company would not be able to compete with a capitalist company since a democratic company treat their workers as humans. That's the short answer.

[studentofmises]

Let me see if I understand this correctly. According to you a “democratic business system” is a much more human and better system than the “capitalist system”. However it is unsustainable and inefficient and if the people were given a choice between the 2 systems most people would still choose the “capitalist system”. So we would need to get rid of capitalism in order to have the democratic system work. Doesn’t that contradict with democratic principles, eliminating peoples choices.

[studentofmises]

@TheSplashMan Whats not to understand? In short you are telling me that you have a better product than lets say Apple. You claim that its better because it has everything that everyone would want, but you just cant show it to anyone because you are afraid people would still choose Apple over yours. So instead of following you own philosophy, giving people a choice, you would prefer to eliminate any choice that differs from yours. Cont…..

[studentofmises]

@TheSplashMan All I’m asking is for you to show me how your theory is better in comparison so that I can choose between capitalism and democracy fairly. But you’re telling me that you wont show me how democracy works or is better until we remove capitalism, because you are afraid that I will still choose capitalism over democracy. So how is this democracy?

[TheSplashMan]

@studentofmises Listen closely, because this really is the core concept that you are missing: The point of a democratically run company is NOT efficiency. And WHY efficiency would not be priority no.1 in a democratic economy is because the WELLBEING of the workers would become more important than larger profits. Therefore, comparing them according to their effectiveness is POINTLESS since it is the WELL BEING of the people that advocates of a democratic economy wants, NOT larger profits.

[DjDedan]

@TheSplashMan Can't co-ops be just as efficient as an exploitative capitalist company??? Just curious...

[TheSplashMan]

@DjDedan They can be. They can even be more efficient. It depends on what kind of work the product you are selling requires. Work like computer programing or similar work requires a creative and calm mind to produce quality work. And if you only work 6 hours a day, eat lunch when it suits you and so on, you wont be as stressed out therefore the time you do work you are more efficient than you would have been in a capitalist company.

[DjDedan]

@TheSplashMan yeah thats true, i mean it can be argued in software dev you have the extreme case of a co-operative structure with the opensource movement. And that works better in most cases than the commercial counterparts... interesting.

[Christ724]

@DjDedan it can be, but since by their nature and structure the workers can have an easier time in changing the coop and the consumers themselves can also have a say (if run with delegates representing the community)

[Christ724]

@TheSplashMan And not to mention that by the very structure of the capitalist system, it is inevitable that the business will seek protection aka the state. Capitalist firms, by their very nature, NEED the state to muscle out competition and keep workers in line. Most Mises people forget this and think everything will be rosy if the state just lets these firms rule the market with an iron fist (even though it will be inevitable that state intervenes).

[spartan2600]

It must be that about 1 in every 5 people have a video camera of some sort recording. Its not necessary to have more than about 3-5 people recording. Everyone else should put down their gadgets to pay more close attention to what the speaker is saying.

[Keenanwbarbee]

@spartan2600 not everyone wants to throw their shit on youtube. some folks just want to have a video for themselves