NARTH Convention and Training Institute - 2008

[TheDragonlady08]

Let those who want to have therapy have it! Let those who want to CHANGE do it. These doctors want to keep people in the dungeon forever. Don't they say that people have the right to chose. To say that this therapy do not work is a desperate attempt to shout down the voices that say that CHANGE IS POSSIBLE when people want it.

[GodCreatesGays2]

TDL08, of course, even pretending that "change" is possible or necessary is deceitful and dangerous. No intelligent, moral person would advocate it. Homosexuality is an innate component of a human being, as bestowed upon him by God, and cannot be changed or denied. Saying a gay person needs to "change" is like saying a black man or a Latina woman is abhorrent to the Lord, and needs to change to find His favor. Could YOU change who you are because uneducated bigots condemned you? Think about it.

[loveless3138]

@TheDragonlady08 You cannot change something innate and you are born with. That's like trying to change your brain structure through therapy.

[alonelychild]

I don't believe because I was not changed

[funk7000]

The APA's removal of homosexuality and lesbianism as a mental disorder in 1973 was not based on anything more than political by gay and lesbian militant activist.

[molimhvalaizvoli]

@funk7000 - yep, you got that right! i read your aother comments and must say i completely agree with you!

[funk7000]

@molimhvalaizvoli Well, the APA is complete rooted in politics and business rather than scientific objectivity. They normalize REAL disorders and make up disorders like the new one coming up called "Healthy Eating Disorder." Yes, they are going to say that ppl who eat free ranch farm and organic foods all the time have a mental illness so they can push more pharm pills on ppl, and also help out the big "chicken death camp" agricultural industry. Big govt needs to end

[molimhvalaizvoli]

@funk7000 - the rise of new diagnosis is really ridiculous, and the drugg industry, pharmacetic lobby etc. btw-are you a psychologist? i study psy btw

[funk7000]

@molimhvalaizvoli check your inbox

[funk7000]

Anybody can have sex or the desire to have sex with somebody of the same sex and even enjoy it (as long as it isn't rape)...that doesn't make you who you are.

[iidontcareeee]

Thanks very much for posting this. I've always wanted to hear Dr. Russell speak.

[iidontcareeee]

Thanks very much for posting this. I've always wanted to hear Dr. Russell speak.

[funk7000]

Sexuality and orientation is defined by action--because, without that action--what remains? A person's identity is not contingent on who or what they feel or think they feel attracted to and sexual acts: one instance of sexual action, or even a pattern of sexual actions--unless human existence is sexualized. Once a person bases his/her identity mainly on who or what one feels or thinks he/she feels attracted to, they have reduced their identity to a very shallow means.

[barbtube01]

LMAO...........I guess George Rekers will be NARTH's new poster boy! What a bunch of hypocrites!

[JoeyBoya]

Obviously you cant change someones sexual orientation... although i do think some people are confused and believe they are gay when they are not then later change to their real sexual orientation which causes confusion to everyone who believes there is a possibility someone can change.... Either way we should love and respect people for who they are... LOVE TO ALL

[snapesluv69]

You can not turn an apple into a orange, no matter how much you try!! What i'm saying is you can't change who you are, so people who try to change you need to get stuffed!!

[jjmcoates]

i think people should just read the website ( narth)

there are different views that youtube will not allow.

[Jamieishere1]

@jjmcoates The APA has analysed NARTHs claims etc and one of their findings is that no research supports the idea that sexuality can be changed...

[fireflygirl246]

@Jamieishere1 That is not intirly ture there are lots of cases were sexual preference can change during someones life time. What the research dose say that it is not choice, often this change is resisted, but is not controlable. They are also no real know cause that would triger this change, but its believed that its some phyisical change in the brain and can not be indused or forced ether turning someone gay or straight.

[funk7000]

@fireflygirl246 It is a choice, but often times it's a subconscious choice that comes from unmet emotional needs and unresolved issues

[fireflygirl246]

@funk7000 That is not what the research on sexual oringtaion says. There is no evidence to suggest that homosexuality is caused by any unmeet emotional needs or unresolved issues. there are lots of homosexuals the have no unmeet emotional needs or unresolved issues and lots of stright people that do have this issues and it dose not make them gay. if what you said was ture all gays would have this issues and straights would not, there is no link between the two.

[funk7000]

@fireflygirl246 Most research points towards environmental factors. if there are biological factors, they are minimal. There are reasons why straight ppl with those issues do not turn out gay, which are also environmental such as lack of sexualization and healthy and loving parental role figures

[fireflygirl246]

@funk7000 BULL FUCKING SHIT, no studie or legitimit research anywere says that homosexuality is caused by not having loving parental role models, where are these studies you speak of, you say there is research I would love for you to point to one legitimit study that says any of this. If its this studie has been done by love in action, exidus or any other religious anti gay group im going to laugh in your face. come on put your money were your mouth is an show some evidences for your claims.

[fireflygirl246]

@funk7000 on top of all that how do you explaine all the homosexuals that come form loving stable homes with both a mother and a father. All the homisexuals that do not have emotional problems or unresolved issues. your cliams make no sence, they are not backed up by any medical orginiztion in west, not even in the usa where things like gay marriage are still illegal. Im sorry but your completly full of crap and have no idea what you are talking about.

[funk7000]

@fireflygirl246 Some children may have had an excellent relationship with their same-gender parent, but experienced rejection from their same-sex peers, or been molested by an older male figure. Anything that is done to create a sense of disconnection between a child and his own gender can cause homosexuality.

[fireflygirl246]

@funk7000 I ask you for a study that shows anything that you have said is ture and you come back with just more assurtions, how do you know any of this, are you gay? are you a doctor? Do you have your degree or any post secondary education in psychology? is there any reason we should believe anything you have to say at all. Can you point to one peer reviewed artical that supports what you are saying or can you only point to articals on BIBLE(dot)COM and focusonthefamily(dot)com?

[funk7000]

@fireflygirl246 If you want to use the old tired argument that religious sources are "bias" I will tell you that every study or finding NARTH, F.R.I., and H.O.M.E has published has either been peer-reviewed or quotes right from homosexual sources. I have yet to find a pro-gay study that argues for genetic disposition that hasn't either been conducted by a gay or lesbian and/or funded by the GLBT activist group of some sort.

[funk7000]

APA offers a booklet on the biological research into the origins of homosexuality. This pamphlet says: "To date, no researcher has claimed that genes can determine sexual orientation. At best, researchers believe that there may be a genetic component. No human behavior, let alone sexual behavior, has been connected to genetic markers to date...sexuality, like every other behavior, is undoubtedly influenced by both biological and societal factors."

[funk7000]

They throw in "biological factors" in order to be politically correct. There hasn't been a study yet that conclusively specifies what those biological factors are. There are a small handful of studies (like the twin study) that have only SUGGESTED that there may be genetic influences. These studies have been conducted by gay scientist or psychologist. But even so, they have not been able to replicate those studies and many other discrepencies were discovered with the methods of those studies

[fireflygirl246]

@fu "They throw in "biological factors" in order to be politically correct." wow another bold assurtion with nothing to back it up, again were is the evidence of this? actually there has been some studies that show that homosexaul and heterosexal male brians are different form each other, its not of a genitic link, but it sure is for a biological link. BULL SHIT most of the scientists and psychologists that study this stuff are straight, another unfound bold assurtion, show me the proof of this

[fireflygirl246]

@funk7000 "they have not been able to replicate those studies and many other discrepencies were discovered with the methods of those studies" show me the studies that tried to replicate these studies and failed, show me the articals calling into question the methods of these studies.

Like the genes that can give you cancer, if you have them you will not atuomaticaly get cancer its just more likely, that is what these studies of gay twins shows, a high chance of being gay, not a 100% garentee.

[Xtro2005]

@fireflygirl246 But what they fail to mention in those tests is that Fraternal Twins are 100% genetically identical. If homosexuality is caused exclusively by genetics both individuals would by gay 100% of the time.

[fireflygirl246]

@Xtro2005 you would have to be retarded not to under stand that Identical twins are 100% genetically identical, I don't think anyone was missing that detail. some genes can cause cancer, but just because you have the genes dose not mean you will get the cancer. But a twin with a gay brother is five times more likely to be gay, so there seems to be a link. I think more then genes I think its hormone levels in the womb during development, but both ideas need more research.

[Xtro2005]

@fireflygirl246 I believe your cancer analogy to be incorrect. What you are suggesting wrt cancer are possible genetic links that likely require environmental stimulus of some sort to take effect (or possibly never existed on a genetic level in the first place). This is not indistinguishable from arguing that genes cause homosexuality. If one twin had a gene that caused cancer in and of itself both would develop cancer.

[fireflygirl246]

@Xtro2005 Yes I agree that is why I lean towards the effects of hormones on the fetuses brain at different points of development. But I'm not a scientist so my opinion dose not hold much wait. If they say they have found strong evidence for a genetic factor(they never say its the only factor) in homosexuality and its been peer reviewed Ill willing to take there word. As well all research say sexuality is not a choice, you don't choose who you fall in love with, its that simple.

[Xtro2005]

@fireflygirl246 I certainly wouldn't dismiss the possibility of hormonal influence but I think the findings regarding twins done by Bailey & Pillard et al and peer review by Byne & Parson, Hubbard & Wald, etc were pretty damning of such a position

Personally, I take the "not a choice" position as an attempt at strawmaning the opposition. Only the religious are arguing its a choice. I doubt for example, pedophiles choose to be attracted to children. They also are nearly impossible to treat.

[fireflygirl246]

@Xtro2005 this will be my last resonance.

You low life piece of scum, How dare you compare my mature adult relationship with my same sex partner as anything the same pedophilia. Pedophilia if you ever bother to look stuff up is about having power over the kids its not the same as adult romantic attractions, hetero or homo, homosexuality is not a decease, its just verity in the human species. Pedophilia is classified as a mental decease that hurts the pedophile as much as his(or her) victims.

[Xtro2005]

@fireflygirl246 I made no such moral conflation. I was comparing situational sexual behavior retention between cases where the behavior is assume to be innate and another where it is not. I fail to understand how, other than by rank emotionalism you, concluded I was making a moral analysis. Perhaps you should take the time to consider this overreaction.

[fireflygirl246]

@funk7000 your right no APA says it dose not know the cause of homosexuality, but there is evidence that genes do play a factor, but the research is incomplete, so they say they do not know for sure what causes it. There is no evidence to show that it has anything to do with what you claim. so I did not ask for evidence against a biological reason , I asked for evidence that supported your cliam that its"unmet emotional needs and unresolved issues ".cont...

[fireflygirl246]

... "No human behavior, let alone sexual behavior, has been connected to genetic markers to date" boy you have not done your research, a simple google search brings up a ton of peer reviewed articals that show a great corrolation with genetics and complex human behavior. even it this was not the case, your cliam its caused but emotional problems and unresolved issues is unfounded.

[fireflygirl246]

@funk7000 You can do what ever you want with your life and if you want to consider your homosexality an illness that needs to be treated go right ahead and do what you feel is right for your life. But do not claim to know what is like for the rest of us. We are happy with who we are, im sorry thta you were not happy with who you were. I'm happy with my life, I do not have emotional problems or unresolved issues. There is nothing wrong with being gay if that is who you are.

[fireflygirl246]

@funk7000 you posted and then deteted this: If you want to use the old tired argument that religious sources are "bias" I will tell you that every study or finding NARTH, F.R.I., and H.O.M.E has published has either been peer-reviewed or quotes right from homosexual sources. I have yet to find a pro-gay study that argues for genetic disposition that hasn't either been conducted by a gay or lesbian and/or funded by the GLBT activist group of some sort.

[fireflygirl246]

@funk7000 to respond to your deleted comment, the APA and other medical orginizations that a neather pro or anti gay all say that homosexuality is not a mental disorter and dose not cause anyone any harm, except form the social preasure felt by the uninformed public. The only why homosexuals are harmed by there homosexuality is by the bigotry of others. being gay is not an illness, its not something to be ashamed of and its not something you should punish yourself for being. cont..

[fireflygirl246]

... your claim that homosexual sources are peer reviewing sceintific studies is laughable, homosexaul ativists are not the scientific peers of the people doing these studied, they have no scientific jornals that I am aware of, can you please point me to one or are you just makeing stuff up again and hoping I will not call you on it. Do you have any evidence for anything that you have been claiming at all? again show me what studies have been funded by LGBT groups, were is your evidence for this?

[risingup]

Doctor (?) Shumacher, perhaps you are unaware that males who prey on children are almost always heterosexual? Dr. Bruce Rind is not a "homosexual activist." There is a huge difference between pedophilia (again, almost exclusively a heterosexual male problem) and two consenting adults loving each other. Huge.

[DoctorShumacher]

almost always?

not true at all

homosexuals have a long history of sex with teen boys

the only reason it looks like theres more heterosexual molesters, is because we outnumber you more than ten to one

also, homosexual researchers will classify a man who molests a boy as hetero

I dont care what someone "identifies as" when the prosecutor comes and gives them their "pre sentence investigation"

MAN ON BOY IS HOMOSEXUAL!

Homosexuals have a word for it. They call it "closeted"

[lzambeni1]

As an RN/biologist i concur. Yes the *vast majority* of pedophiles rapists & incest perpetrators r HETEROSEXUAL MEN. To make a + change in the world "reparative therapy" should start with them! Infact, I imagine these grps could start by looking w/in their own organizations 4 "closeted" perpetrators who r *projecting* their own truely sick behavior on gay americans involved in consenting, loving adult relationships.

[lzambeni1]

Additionally, studies show that ZERO percent - 0% - of pedophiles r Lesbians - if you want your children in safe and loving care you can find no safer place than with Lesbians! You'd be hard pressed to find Lesbian rapists as well. When you consider that 1 out of 4 women will b raped in their lifetime by *heterosexual men*- this puts the *true epidemic problem* in context. Yes, let them try "reparative therapy" on perpetrators.

[fireflygirl246]

@risingup Worng Wrong WRONG, The vast majority of pediophiles are actually straight males that have no intrest in adult males. That dose not mean that there are not gay man that are pedophiles but they only make up about 5%-10% of the pediophile, just like in the population as a whole. Pediophilia is about having power over childern not sexual preferance.

[risingup]

@fireflygirl246

Maybe you need to re-read what I wrote, as we are saying the same thing...did you think I wrote "homosexual" instead of "heterosexual"? Anyway, we're in agreement so not sure why this comment was directed at me.

[fireflygirl246]

@risingup yeah i did my bad and my apologies.

[funk7000]

@risingup Most pedophilia cases involve adults molesting kids of the same sex. My friend is an undercover cop for almost 20 years who specializes in busting pedos. He told me that at least 75% of them where gay or lesbian and/or displayed homosexual tendencies.

[DoctorShumacher]

yeah, the APA

THE PEDERASTY ARTICLE ON WIKIPEDIA has been updated to include the new movement by homosexual activist Dr Bruce Rind who is working to get pederasty and pedophilia reclassified by the APA as an orientation, instead of a paraphilia, much in the same way homosexuality was.

When a (male) homosexual molests a boy child is can cause permanent damage, especially if/when the boy grows up to be hetero! !!!

[nothing1967]

There is a difference between being consenting gay *ADULTS* and being fucked up (i.e. pederasty/pedophilia)!

[thealphacrow]

So, Dr. Kinsey doing studies on prisoners and then applying his findings to the normal populace is regarded as good research?

People who suffer from the neurosis of same sex attraction are getting help and overcoming the mental disorder.

All of your slanted research which throws out data that doesn't agree with your hypothesis can't change the biological fact of sexual anatomy.

-Dr. Gerard Van Den Aardweg "Battle for Normality"

-Richard Cohen "Coming out Straight"

-John Heard "Dreadnought"

[whoo689]

Oh, shut it with that outdated nonsense! The APA looked at the research and concluded that homosexuality is just as normal as being straight. They took it off the mental disorders list in the early 1970s! Yet bigoted groups with an agenda like NARTH that can't accept the fact that the facts aren't on their side continue to promote bogus "research" and try to tweak things to support their political agenda.

[thealphacrow]

So what study are you referring to? It is clear that the APA has an agenda and not a study. The fact that men and women are getting help in dealing with the neurosis of Same Sex Attraction is what speaks. The fact that 60% of people who suffer from Same sex attraction have been molested in their youth is what speaks. The APA is just trying to bang drums so people can't hear the real experts.

[thealphacrow]

The APA is also just banging drums to disrupt people from thinking for themselves. Stimulating your genitals on the digestive tract of someone of the same gender is not a marital act. It does not make sense in the world of biology. It is infuriating that people want to teach kids that their sexual anatomy is senseless and that their anatomical structure is meant to be used in ways that nature doesn't allot for. Homogenital acts render sexual anatomy to be senseless.

[thealphacrow]

People who suffer from same sex attraction also display behavioral characteristics of never advancing beyond their teen age years. Same Sex Attraction is a debilitating neurosis just like Anorexia. People can get help and they are getting help. Citing the APA and then not citing a study is just stalling. Intelligent people are reading the APA reports and the APA is obviously using it's authority to push an agenda on an ignorant people.

[thealphacrow]

I highly recommend that you actually read the "proof" that the APA puts out. I recommend that everyone read what the APA puts out and then we won't have an ignorant group of people who blindly cite the APA. The APA will loose credibility as people begin demanding facts and not hyperbole.

There is no "gay gene" as NPR and Newsweek falsely reported. You can google search that FACT.

You can Google search for Dr. Gerard Van Den Aardweg "Battle for Normality"

Search for "Dreadnought"

SEARCH THINK!

[nothing1967]

You "loose"-ed your credibility right there...

[RxNiilo]

So basically, because I love my girlfriend, I obviously have a mental disorder that gets in the way of my having perfectly normal heterosexual feelings, which will obviously make me so much happier than I am now, with the one I love.

[thealphacrow]

An alcoholic acts in a way that goes against nature. An anorexic acts in a way that goes against nature. A homosexual acts in a way that goes against nature.

I understand that you have loving feelings towards another person but your loving feelings are not the question, your sexual activity with that person is the disorder and it reveals a disordered love. I am a man who has loving feelings for many men in my life but they are not sexual feelings.

[thealphacrow]

If you are sexually attracted to someone who is the same gender as you and you act on those impulses then yes, you have a disorder. Your body has a specific biological anatomy, just like the body has a specific way that it takes in and digests food. The anorexic abuses the body's digestive function and the homosexual abuses the body's sexual function.

I don't condemn you for being same sex attracted. Our society forces sex on kids and creates disorders. The fact is that there is no "gay gene".

[thealphacrow]

Society forces sex on kids in different ways. I found a hard core porn mag in the grocery store parking lot when I was with my mom shopping at age 11. My mom didn't notice it but I did and I hid it in my shirt. I developed an addiction to porn after that. But there is no room in the act of sex for a 3rd party to sit back and watch (Catholic Catechism). A 3rd party is out of place in the act of sex. Sex is for the union of 2 people for life and the procreation of other humans.

[RxNiilo]

I would like to note that you stealing a pornographic magezine from a store parking lot is not 'society pushing pornography on children', but you stealing a porno you found. Society did not push the magezine on you; you did not have to take it. That was your decision.

[thealphacrow]

homogenital acts are not acts of sex, they are acts of mutual masturbation. Your anatomy was made to function in a specific way with the anatomy of your complementary gender. Homosexuals simulate the natural act of sex. They are addicted to the orgasm and are not acting in a loving manner towards the person they claim to love. They are using the person to have an orgasm and rendering their own fertility and anatomy to be senseless. There is hope. People can get help and fix this disorder.

[RxNiilo]

I have never once had sex with my girlfriend, because frankly, I don't need to have sex to have a stable relationship. We love each other as dearly as any straight couple would, and for you to call it a mental disorder and a mutual abuse of each other for the sake of an orgasm when we don't even have sex is a simple lack of consideration that maybe, it's not about wanting to do the same sex, it's about loving the same sex, because that's how I was born, and that's how I believe god made me.

[thealphacrow]

Rx

The disorder is the sexual activity, so I am confused as to what the problem is. Love is devided into 2 dimensions, eros and agape. Eros is the dimension that encompasses romantic sexual love and agape is a dimension that contains self sacrifice and self giving. I have agape for many men in my life. There is nothing disordered about that, it's called friendship. Eros on the other hand is reserved for my wife, acting out the romantic and sexual feelings that are natural and good.

[thealphacrow]

Rx

Nobody is required to be sexually attracted to the opposite gender. If you do not have sexual attraction towards men then there is nothing wrong with you. But if you have sexual attraction toward women, you being a woman, then you have a mental disorder. The sexual inclinations that you have are disordered and you human biology/anatomy are what reveal the disorder. It is natural for a person to have a sex drive but a person can abuse that sex drive.

[thealphacrow]

Rx

There is no such thing as gay or straight, there is only human. And there are some humans that abuse their anatomy and sexuality, and there are those who live in harmony with their anatomy and sexuality. People who suffer from the neurosis of same sex attraction and who engage in homogenital acts are abusing their anatomy and sexuality.

[RxNiilo]

You just said there is no such thing as gay or straight, but then go on to say homosexuals are 'abusing' their sexuality.

To start, I was confused with your posts at first, which made my reply invalid. Now that I've read over them, I get your point, but still disagree. I have had sex with a woman, because I found her attractive. I cannot have sex with a man, because while I feel 'agape' for many men, I cannot feel 'eros' for them. I suppose the reason I disagree is because for me, love is a

[RxNiilo]

more spiritual connection. I'm not only attracted to my lover's body, but to her personality, and her interactions with me. It's insulting for you to call that love a disorder that can be 'helped', because frankly, if I feel love - toward anyone - why should it need to be fixed? i suppose what I mean is, if I'm happy with my love, even if you think it's a mental disease I should want to rid myself of, why would I want to give up happiness to succom to the believe of only a portion

[RxNiilo]

of society? If society decided that all people who have dyed their hair should dye it to their natural color at the expense of their happiness, simply because it was born in that hue, how many people do you think would agree to it?

Put simply, I believe your ideals do not consider the most basic of human desires - to be content with your existance - and imply that you think all homosexuals should consider 'fixing' their 'disorder', their feelings excluded from the matter.

[RxNiilo]

In addition, I understand that you are not implying my love is a disorder, but my sexual acts toward that love, but I feel this is an invalid arguement, as to me, love and sex are one in the same. Sex is simply a natural part of a relationship, which I use as another form of making my partner happy. I could have sex with a man, and enjoy it, but I could never love him. Fixing my sexuality would only confuse me, as I would still love women, but would not be attracted to them. It solves nothing.

[totalchaos7112]

@RxNiilo There are different kinds of love. There is love to god,love to your friends,love to your parents, and a romantic to love to opposite sex?

[JohnElligott]

How disheartening that you have such comments. A patient should get sued? For what? How ironic... society has made a total 180. Activists misguided pressure the APA removed homosexuality from its list of mental disorders. Homosexuals today wants to believe that criticism of them is criticism of their sexual orientation, its not, its criticism of a mentality that has made even truth impossible! All so a group of men can avoid any true introspection.

[Chiangmai007]

I agree with this woman and every person who thinks they have the right to seek help for unwanted same sex attraction ought to be sued. Its up to someone in the APA to judge your candidacy for healing--not you! Just because ex-gays have overcome depression, compassion deficits, suicidal ideation and the constant barrage of unwanted homo-erotic fantasies... that does not mean we as a society should allow, publicize or encourage this nonsense.