Well, perhaps the argument from beauty shouldn't be an argument for god but rather an argument against materialism. Perhaps the notion of "beauty" is a non-material thing rather than simply some evolutionary reaction to natural phenomena...
Bach's music was informed, motivated and inspired by his faith and by his doctrinal upbringing... so what? EVERYTHING in his sublime music can be accounted for without recurring to divine intervention. You can say Bach's music is divine, perfect, genial, incredible, etc., but it is "incomprehensible" and "impossible" only for the musical ignorant. Let's give full credit to Bach, Michelangelo, Dante, Shakespeare, Newton, Einstein and Michael Jordan. THEY deserve it. Or keep dreaming.
"Dead-to-the-spirit deluded "God Delusion" author & blithering fool scientist goon Richard Dawkins another "leader" given to the profane masses is another useful idiot for Jesuit machinations"-C.O.
Jesuitical: pertaining to the Jesuits or their principals; designing; cunning; deceitful; prevaricating
The Jesuits completely altered the education system to suit their evolution agenda to discredit the Bible. They cant have a Satanic society of 'Do as Thou Wilt' if people still follow the Bible.
@Xsuprio I think the reason for that argument is that intense emotional experiences all produce roughly the same chemical reactions in the brain, and thus the religious confuse the feelings they get from music with the feelings they get when in church. Thus music must be from god.
E.A.Wallis Budge translation of, 'The Papyrus of Ani' (1500BCE comp O.T.800-300BCE ish), other great writings are by Donald A. Mackenzie,' Egyptian myth and legend', James G Frazer, 'The Golden Bough', For sceptical Bible scholars try Thomas Paine, Mark Twain, Joseph Wheless, Robert Ingersoll, C.Dennis Mckinsey, Victor J Stenger, Robert M Price, Dan Barker, John W. Loftus, Bart Ehrman, Gary Greenberg, Richard Carrier, David Mills, Valerie Tarico, Israel Finkelstein, wisdomcommons
The link between beauty and design cannot be found through logic. Logic works very well for a lot of things, but it can't understand beauty, there are other ways of knowing things besides logic.
@LIGHTRONIX "Logic works very well for a lot of things, but it can't understand beauty, there are other ways of knowing things besides logic."
Logic fail. How do you think your brain can recognize what it regards as beauty? Easy: The law of identity. A=A.
Everything that happens in your brain can be reduced to logic. Even emotions. It's just that it happens subconsciously, much like the early processing in your visual system.
@LIGHTRONIX No, there isn't. Logic and reason are the basis of EVERYTHING - even illogical religion.
Beauty is a way of making our species chose "better" mates to perpetuate the better genes. I believe cultural determination and enjoyment of beauty is a way for us to become closer; a "pack mentality", the same thing religion is, in most prospects.
Because we see red as red. It is to do with the science of colours or chromatics. You assert that there is a god without evidence, therefore I can equally dismiss your assertion without evidence.
I love horror and ghost stories and movies but I don't believe in god or the supernatural in any way. Fiction is fiction, it's enjoyable to read eerie stories even when you know ghosts do not exist.Not all scary stories are artistic, only some have some merit but they are fun! Art is art, it has nothing to do with belief, it has to do with enjoyment.
In other words these evolutionists are saying that when people have sex they evolve each time. What a load of crap! What are humans evolving to? Aliens? When apes mated did they evolve into humans? By the way animals do not have sex, they mate, humans have sex.
Know the difference between animal kingdom and human race and plant life and fish life. A fish cannot mate with a dog. A dog cannot pollinate a rose. And apes cannot mate with humans. And humans cannot have sex with frogs. Evolution is a lie!
Most of these comments on the absurdity on evolution would be solved if those who post just read an introductory text on evolution.
Honestly, some of you are just ridiculously ignorant about the subject and should at least attempt to learn before you post. Why do you accept mechanical engineering and not genetics, hydrology but not geology?
Getting one's view of science and evolution from a priest, pastor, rabbi, or iman is like trying to learn music from a person deaf since birth. Worse.
Obviously this man is confused. How can Dawkins get married when marriage is from God? What a liar Dawkins is! Marriage is about love. God is love. And if Dawkins loves his wife then he is lying even further because evolution is not about love....God is.
@Mesdriver Excuse me, God is the one who created marriages so get your facts right. Evolution would only be to have sex and change from monkey to man, or pig to bird (which is totally ridiculous because evolution is a big fat lie)
@Mesdriver After God had made the woman as man's companion, he said to Adam: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24). God himself arranged for marriage of males and females and only males and females. God has provided information that no man could have discovered on his own. If the family evolved from pair bonding among the animals, what moral values must husbands and fathers and wives and mothers honor?
@Mesdriver Evolutionists may be good family people, but there is nothing in evolution that would require it. When a monkey abandons his partner and offspring, we do not accuse him of being immoral. When an old sow eats her piglets, we do not indict her for murder or child abuse. If we are all animals, why are human parents imprisoned for killing their children and animal parents are not?
@Mesdriver Evolutionists have no standard by which they can condemn mothers and fathers who sexually, emotionally or physically abuse their children. Evolutionists almost certainly do not approve of such behavior, but they cannot say it is wrong—always wrong. Their only response has to be, "We do not like it. It offends our sensitivities." But they cannot categorically condemn any kind of behavior.
@Mesdriver You claim to have much much higher moral standards? Where? In your ape ancestors? Because you surely don't have anything good to say about those who believe in God. Didn't you know that name-calling is in bad taste? Also insulting?
@hibiscusfire MY mannerisms?????? Here is my one and only quote to you- "Evolutionists- the result of hate and crime. Well you are just very very ignorant and by the way, I do not hate you". Go back and look. You are a hypocrite! It was you that called atheists hateful criminals. Typical HYPOCRITE! Stop judging people.
@notnilccm I am not judging people, only God can do that because He knows our hearts, our secrets, our thoughts. You say you do not hate me but do you love me?
@hibiscusfire Human beings who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. Douglas Adams
@notnilccm There you go quoting the words of a man. All humans are unique in their own way, each has a talent no matter how small it may be, it's up to them to use it in the right way that is pleasing to God. Humans have the ability to learn, God has the wisdom and knowledge to teach us but many of humanity choose not to learn the truth.
@hibiscusfire Here we have a god who wanted to forgive mankind its sins. WHY DIDNT HE JUST FORGIVE THEM? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his own son tortured and executed in order that the sins of mankind should be absolved? Is that not the most disgusting idea you have ever heard? Guess who said that?
@notnilccm God made Himself human just to come down and become the living sacrifice to shed His blood to save us. There is life in blood, so also there is eternal life in Christ Jesus. Don't you understand that? Yes God is powerful enough to make Himself human yet be God. Jesus has risen from the dead.
@hibiscusfire Can your God not do anything? He doesnt have to torture and murder his own son. This type of thinking is centuries old. It is sick. It is demented. And as a modern race of humans we need to move beyond it!
@notnilccm You don't get it do you? God took on a human form just to show us that He cares and knows our hurt and pain....that is why He gave His life for us to show us how much He loves us and wants us to know that. He showed us that He conquered death and there is more to what meets the eye on this earth. He made a way for us to live forever with Him. God did much more than you think. God is real and anyone who say He isn't have not met Him yet.
@hibiscusfire God is a figment of you hallucinations and you have not met him and Im very sorry to burst your bubble but you will never meet him outside of your subconscious. Just please dont ever strap on a bomb or do anything else stupid and I have no problem with you living in your fantasy.
@notnilccm You don't even know how to look at things in proper order showing you don't know what you are talking about. God created all things and He did it perfectly. Evil men going away from Him caused all the chaos you see. You better realize God is sacred and holy and is not mocked. If you ever studied the bible you would see what was expected of God's people. It is not an either or choice with no ramifications. It is live for God not committing sin and not living selfishly.
@Skyheartstar777 The human body is quite clearly of imperfect 'design'. Was your god responsible for these imperfections ? For what purpose did he design our vestigial appendices ?
@sawittisunga You cannot say the human body is of imperfect design.You do not know what was taking place in the very beginning and what happened after man and woman sinned.God gave a strong message to the human race as to obeying Him when He did that.He also promises everlasting life in Heaven where the human body is perfect and there is designs there that we do not know about.We will earn them by living a righteous life here on earth,just as you earn a promotion from your good work at your job.
@Skyheartstar777 Let's concentrate on your idea of perfect design rather than your preaching. How would you evaluate the design skills of a designer who made the mammalian laryngeal nerve as it is ? I don't think I'd hire such a designer. Human eyes don't appear to be too well designed either. I'm also a little confused that you can tell me I can't make my statement because I wasn't there at the beginning, yet you can make all sorts of unevidenced assertions about your god. Go figure.
@sawittisunga In your eyes is there a problem with where the mammalian laryngeal nerve and the human eyes? You get all your information from man who wrote books. It is okay for you to believe all they write but not God.Jeremiah 30:1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: 2 “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you.
@Skyheartstar777 Once again I must ask you to forget your scriptures and preaching and concentrate on answering the question at hand. You appear to have trouble following the conversation. Don't veer off, stick to the point. How would you evaluate the design skills of a designer who made the mammalian laryngeal nerve and the human eye as they are ? To you do they appear to be of skilled and perfect design from a skilled and perfect designer ? These are simple questions. Please answer them.
@sawittisunga For you to question it shows you are not God.You are on an evolution page where you speak of things changing and some to conform to surroundings and such.How do you know what the original design was and if it changed over the years?God has His reasons.Maybe the eye to filter the light that passes instead of it going straight through full force which would damage the eye.We learn from all these things.It develops our mind to branch out and explore.
@Skyheartstar777 By your words, you are stating that our bodies were perfect in Eden but after the fall from "grace", our bodies were flawed. Why would your God move body parts around? Wasn't the tree the Tree of (Sinful) Knowledge, not the Tree of Knowledge and Disease and Bodily Mutilation? Can I ask why your God would punish such innocents as Adam/Eve, who could not understand that the serpent is lying, for eating the forbidden fruit? God created their ignorance and then punished them for it.
@BigDiamondCutter Evil men who went away from God brought on the disease. They were self-righteous and selfish wanting things their own way and incurred the wrath of God for sins, rightfully so.
@Skyheartstar777 Why would you choose to follow teachings handed down for over 2000+ years that cannot really be traced and validated to its origins? If you claim to be an intelligent 21st century human being on this planet, surrounded by our physical reality which has been demystified by the honest inquiry and testing processes of science... can you honestly say that "God did it"? Your God occupies the smaller and smaller gaps every day of the unknown. He must be feeling rather cramped by now.
You realize you, with that same logic, will wind up in allah's hell, buddha's reincarnation cycle, hades, helheim, mictlan and a few tens of thousans of other places you don't believe in.
Yes, christians are not the only one's trying to make others obey with their silly hallucinations turned into scare tactics in the name of the meassage love, so just prepare to clone yourself when you die and put one clone in each "hell" and then come back and I'll think about it : )
@aNdYmAtTeR There is only one God. The other's are false. God spoke to the prophets and through them. He was with them and told them to write in a book what he tells them, teaches them (Jeremiah 30:1). I don't look into those false religions. God is love and order - those are not. Some are confusion and just general ways to live right. God is the only way. Our Lord Jesus Christ is who all should turn to for salvation.
the bible was edited by a staff put together by the roman emperor Constantinus. There were more chapters left out of it than there are actually in the book. Are those editors also prophets?
So you don't look elsewhere? You are not interested in getting a better understanding of the world, you only want to keep what you know unchanged forever.
God is order and reality is chaos. God is man made and a projection of our pattern seeking urge, our wishes for order.
@aNdYmAtTeR God most certainly is LOVE and that is how everything was created out of love. 1 John 4:8 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Love is Love. You still have to come up with support for your claims about a god. christians have so far made any better than any of the other religions. And stop hijacking Love like it belong to your blood hungry cult. Why doesn't anybody try to communicate with this creator of the universe by any other means than silly prayers that won't do any difference. You can't make two individual on this planet experience the same thing about your god. Why?
@Skyheartstar777 Please do not just quote a verse. I ask as a serious question on how you can justify your ability to rationalize your claim. I understand the quote but I ask why you believe that it is truth? Who told you it was true...who told that person and so on.Is it possible that perhaps there is a slight chance that it is not true? If there is no chance then what is your absolute proof that demonstrates that you know it is true? If not, does it make you think about the poss. of falsehood?
@Skyheartstar777 For a moment please seriously consider what I previously said. I understand that you believe that your faith is extremely important and central to your perception of whom you are. Understand that you share the same perception of people that lived 2000 years ago. What makes us different from them? Simply, the knowledge that we have obtained by observation, testing, and verifying our data. What have we discovered? Massive evidence to the contrary of many holy books of the world!
@Skyheartstar777 I have studied the bible yet still totally disagree with you ,the reason for this is I have also studied a great many other books . Just because somthing is written down does not make it true
@TheBattlebunker In the bible it states that all scripture is given to men moved by the Holy Spirit or God-breathed. God was with the people in those times. If anyone writes anything false they will answer for it. Revelation 22:18
@notnilccm Galatians 6:7 - 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
One more thing before I close this useless conversation.
You obviously do not have the SLIGHTEST clue how evolution works you never have read any scientific book about the subject, the phiscal development, and the mental development, nothing whatsoever.
You simply do not have a clue, just stupid religious retoric, my god say this, my god says that.
Disgusting primitive behaviour, like all religious no brainers.
The world be be a MUCH better place without you numbs.
@Mesdriver "Disgusting primitive behaviour" aren't your "ape ancestors" with the primitive behaviour including your so-called evolved brain because you do lack the knowledge of morals.
@hibiscusfire I'll talk slowly. Pain=bad. Empathy=good. Causing living beings pain is wrong. Causing a rational being pain is usually unnecessary and evil. I have morals and I don't need an invisible policeman to use them.
@hibiscusfire You're going to have to qualify your last statement for me. How and where have I shown myself unable to differentiate sense from nonsense? I simply let you know that your statement about Prof. Dawkins' marriage is clearly utter nonsense. What do you think is the likelihood that he and his wife were married in a religious ceremony ? Low to zero, right ? And so his marriage to, and love for, his wife have nothing to do with mythical deities. The god you speak of is yours, not his.
@hibiscusfire Sounds very much like totalitarianism to me. Just because you subscribe to it doesn't mean everyone else does. Nor does it mean it's real anywhere other than inside your head. It's arrogant and scary almost beyond belief for you to assume that we are all subject to the whims of characters in myths to which to choose to subscribe. Think about what you're saying...then seek help.
@hibiscusfire "God is God of all mankind" Justify such a claim. You have no evidence. A claim that is asserted without evidence can just as easily be dismissed without evidence.
if youre an artist i will ask you: from where is the origin of your design?
from Dawkins i would ask, all this order you have found, in nature and inter species relations, from where do these ordered laws of constants and variables arrise? you are observing, in marvel, what you cannot fathom, you must admit that you are not responsible for its overwealming weight of depth and energies. if not you then is that force not also so dwarfing of your own potencies that you can only watch in comparison
they are scientists, not artists, therfore they do not have the credulance to make a statement on the self evident existance of God to a talented human being of that creative caliber. creation is what artists and god have so much in common. this is my opinion as an artist, i will let them continue to theorize and calculate, and possibly their calculations are great and impressive, however, they approach from the vantage of one who has nothing in common with God. They have no interest to engage.
@InWonderandAwe Exactly&what is so amazing is that these people who do not believe that God made us cannot even trace anything as solid proof that we came from bacteria.Dawkins is claiming that bacteria evolved into apes which bacteria is the basis of life.Where did the bacteria come from&how would bacteria be able to transform into blood since a bacterial cell contains no blood?How can bacteria form fish,fruits,vegetables,a finger nail of a human being?Then they're saying bacteria is their god?
@Mesdriver You don't have love in your heart except bitterness and hate. You are cruel and mean human being. And if that is from evolution, then it is no wonder, because you don't have any morals or love in your heart.
@Mesdriver Scroll back and read and think. Unless your mind did not "evolve" properly which to me it didn't in the opinion of evolution. You are no-body in evolution. You have no purpose and a total waste of space on this earth. That is what evolution is. No one means anything. With God we are special and loved.
@functionalist972 I never thought that a piece of music could be 'god,' but it certainly seems more plausible than that awful creature from the Old Testament. I experience beauty and mystery in music. I only see the baser emotions and behavioral tendencies of *humans* when I encounter their descriptions of 'god.' Jealousy, anger, hatred, wrathfulness--'god,' it appears, is a pure reflection of the human mind.
Religion is the revelation to man of his divine and eternal destiny. Religion is a purely personal and spiritual experience and must forever be distinguished from man’s other high forms of thought, such as:
1. Man’s logical attitude toward the things of material reality.
2. Man’s aesthetic appreciation of beauty contrasted with ugliness.
3. Man’s ethical recognition of social obligations and political duty.
4. Even man’s sense of human morality is not, in and of itself, religious.
beauty and art and music might not prove the existence of god,but it is hard to explain away all these things and our preception of them from a purely mechanistic point of view.There are many people who may not by into the christian monotheistic viewpoint but still have some sense of spirituality.Dawkins seems unable to comprehend this.
Who the frak has those kinds of arguments and beliefs? "how DARE someone have talent that I don't, it must be God"??? I agree Shakespeare does not prove God's existence, but believing that great composers and writers were inspired by God does not equal jealousy and blind faith. It merely shows that such a person believes in a God who helps humanity help itself, to encourage great thinking, to bring about enlightenment and independence -opposite the view atheists think we have.
also Im so sick of this argument "god exists" "no he does'nt" I really dont give a shit!
also had to laugh when he said if god is there or if he isnt not very atheist lol
I lost interest in this guy as soon as he called for militant atheism. Bad enough weve had dogmatic religion for thousands of years now we have to put up with dogmatic science dawkins is an evolutionary biologist he knows little about quantum physics or thermo dynamics mega fail for those who hang on his words.
They crack open Amber (ancient tree sap) to get out the bugs that were trapped in the sap when it was wet. These 50 million year old bugs hadn't evolved at all, they were the same bugs as today.
Religious Scientists are Pro-Creation, not taking money from the dung family running the world for Satan, thus, Religious Scientists, are the ones telling us about the bugs trapped in Amber, and you ac1th, are a dispicable disinfo agent. Why don't you go try to sell someone the offical 911 story.
@TheTruthPusher You need to realize that "you are all wrong, god did it" works in every single situation. And that's why it should be disregarded, you can't research stuff if the first conclusion you draw is "god did it, wow isn't he wonderful, it's divine I won't look into it".
Several scientists in earlier ages did that and missed the chance of clearing up some issues and gaining understanding about what actually happened.
@starsoffyre But if recognizing the elegant laws of the universe have caused us to appreciate beauty, why should you claim beauty to be an illusion ??
The 'elegant' laws enabled us to exist only because of the (strong) anthropic principle. If beauty isn't the result of adaptation, why would a male cockroach lust at the female cockroach while you get disgusted at it?
@starsoffyre Since "beauty" at the human level (or any known to us) is subjective it's validity cannot be proved or disproved. Your initial comment is thus nothing more than an opinion. Carry on seeing it as an illusion if you will, I know which world I would rather live in.
//Since "beauty" at the human level (or any known to us) is subjective it's validity cannot be proved or disproved. Your initial comment is thus nothing more than an opinion.//
While beauty itself is subjective, the fact that we see beauty in our world logically follows from the conclusion that we have adapted to it.
@starsoffyre "While beauty itself is subjective, the fact that we see beauty in our world logically follows from the conclusion that we have adapted to it."
What is it we have adapted to, beauty or the world ?
Beauty, because we adapted to the 'beautiful' world. In case you misunderstood my use of language, I was not asserting that my view is irrefutable nor a definite truth. I posted it as my own theory of beauty. Are you a theist?
//Carry on seeing it as an illusion if you will, I know which world I would rather live in.//
Now this sounds more of a personal opinion. I can see it as subjective while you see it as objective? So the beauty of an arbitrarily shaped landscape is considered beautiful because it is, not even if the organism's brain didn't adapt to it?
If you are talking about elegant laws, the explanation is simple: the anthropic principle. That's a different level of beauty.
@starsoffyre Agreed, It is an opinion, but I don't think I have posted anything that could be construed as anything other than an opinion, unlike yourself and other notable atheists, who arrogantly write or post "opinions" masquerading as "truths" shrouded in so called irrefutable "logic".
Now you talk of levels of beauty ?? Perhaps you have codified them, a scientific approach to the different levels of beauty as perceived by all animate (perhaps even inanimate) objects ?? Please explain.
What I meant was, the beauty in the elegance of the laws of the Universe is different from the one about the beauty in landscapes in which I was referring to. The beauty in the laws of the Universe is no illusion, because it has enabled us to exist. However, that is explained by the anthropic principle, which states that the reason the laws of the Universe are elegant is because it has to be in order for us to exist and observe it in the first place.
Another form of beauty much similar to that of the elegance of the Universe is mathematics. Depending on how you see it, mathematics could also be seen as an adaptation to our Universe which relies and works on it. The previous argument which I put up about the illusion of beauty only referred to the beauty of natural physical objects.
@IXianGriffin I'm not religious,I neither believe or disbelieve.Love like music is universal,it cross's all boundaries it really needs no explanation.Hate needs to be explained and Dawkins hates religion,so like all phoney guru's dicky's explaining all the way to the bank,see through him.
A man who loves does not have to explain,a man who hates never stops, and dawkins will go on explaining till he dies,and when he does could he come back and let us all know that there is definitely nothing there.This music is beautiful by the way.
the more powerful argument from beauty is not that schuberts or bachs music exists, but that we are able to experience the "feeling" (or whatever it is) of beauty. there is something about being struck by awe and beauty that makes you abandon all logic, reason and evidence. beauty is, as an experience, emotionally more powerful, deep and moving than reason and logic. that's not to say that this is evidence for any fictional character, but it's a decent argument for transcendence in general
@GeistWerk That is...pretty vague. What does that mean? Decent argument, for transcedence? Is that something after factual world? What does world without factueal meaning, mean?
@Tenebrousable the feeling of beauty and awe (the experience itself) is so deep and significant (at least that's how it feels) that in that experience it is almost reasonable to abandon a world view that is purely based on logic, objectivity and sense perceptions. I know what you're thinking; "feelings are not evidence". if the feeling is powerful enough, you don't need evidence. when you wake up in the morning, you feel that you're awake, you don't need any evidence.
@GeistWerk But there is evidence that others can look for to verify it, were it necessary: brain wave patterns, responsiveness of pupils, ability to track and respond to stimuli, etc. etc.
Subjective feelings are NOT evidence of objective truth, no matter how powerful. You can't just wave your hands and declare that they are because you wish for it to be so.
@DanThePropMan subjective feelings are not evidence of objective truth but why do you assume that subjectivity is less relevant than objectivity? the only way to explore the subjective is direct experience. looking at brain wave patterns is not exploring the subjective mind, it is exploring the objective world. science is only concerned with the objective. spirituality is concerned with the subjective. why do you think that the objective is somehow more real than the subjective?
@GeistWerk Looking at brain wave patterns being "exploring the objective" was my point exactly. Subjective feelings can and should be corroborated with objective evidence. I have no problem with subjective experiences as evidence, but I disagree with your statement that "if the feeling is powerful enough, you don't need evidence," because it leads to half-baked arguments like "I know God exists, I feel it in my heart," or "I know ghosts exist, I saw one with my own eyes."
@DanThePropMan you are misunderstanding what I am saying. arguments like "I know God exists (objectively!), because I feel it" are bullshit, I agree. what I am saying is "I have a certain experience of awe or beauty and the experience itself (not what causes it. not the brain wave pattern but the subjective experience) is a reality that is more relevant/real/true to me than anything objective could ever be". subjective feelings are not evidence,they are a reality that can be directly experienced
So I did finally listen to Richard Dawkins and Lalla Ward talking. They both underline what for me is self evident in this wonderful music. That is a yearning for something which is "beyond our muddled fragmented lives". A yearning for something which is perhaps unattainable in our human existence. I'm sure neither would agree because they both believe themselves to be unnassailably "human", invulnerable, and full of the grace of "human knowledge", by which they will ultimately conquer all.
I find his voice soothing, he has such perfect diction and phrases his sentences so effortlessly, with nary an um, oh, or need to restate his ideas. How does he do it? I aspire to such eloquence.
Certainly the beauty argument for the existence of a deity is as invalid as all the rest.
Richard Dawkins isn't quite right to claim that, for example, works attributed to Shakespeare prove the existence of the Bard: they could have been written by someone else :)
@bachlover99 How can you equate atheism as a "belief in nothing"? There are just as many beautiful and fascinating things in the universe for the atheist to marvel at. That's Richard Dawkins' point. I don't need to find meaning in a God that may or may not exist. There's enough meaning in the world and my life without that.
@inspi When Atheists have proved they can produce such sublime music etc. as this then I might begin to listen.
Atheism=denial of God (higher authority). If you believe this then things only happen by chance, there are no rules. However even RD would admit to there being a set rules which govern our known universe. Perhaps you can "find meaning" in a such set of rules that apparently arrived randomly from nothing ? I have no idea what you call this "set of rules", GOD is good enough for me.
@bachlover99 Ran out of room -I have no idea what you call this "set of rules", and the "power/authority" that binds them. GOD is good enough for me.
by saying "GOD is good enough for me. " you imply that you settle for low standards, while also implying there are higher standards (since low standards can not excist without higher ones). So you believe because it's "just easy for you to follow" , or " just simple to understand" , but yet are actually stating that you *do* know better than that. That is fooling yourself, while actually knowing better. It's choosing lazyness over the truth. ....why?
@PowerRedBull Not sure I understand the "fuzzy logic" here. What I meant by "God is good enough for me" is that I believe that there is a higher authority (and not just complete random nothingness) that has ordered our known universe. What that authority really is I do not know, but the concept of "GOD" is good enough for me. And the power and expression of music such as this leads me to believe that the Christian god revealed by Jesus could perhaps be closer to the model than your nothing.
remember, reality(real life) is stranger than fiction(bible)
blindedby2monkeys 7 hours ago
Well, perhaps the argument from beauty shouldn't be an argument for god but rather an argument against materialism. Perhaps the notion of "beauty" is a non-material thing rather than simply some evolutionary reaction to natural phenomena...
ApatheticOmniscience 2 months ago
Bach's music was informed, motivated and inspired by his faith and by his doctrinal upbringing... so what? EVERYTHING in his sublime music can be accounted for without recurring to divine intervention. You can say Bach's music is divine, perfect, genial, incredible, etc., but it is "incomprehensible" and "impossible" only for the musical ignorant. Let's give full credit to Bach, Michelangelo, Dante, Shakespeare, Newton, Einstein and Michael Jordan. THEY deserve it. Or keep dreaming.
bersa888 3 months ago
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"Dead-to-the-spirit deluded "God Delusion" author & blithering fool scientist goon Richard Dawkins another "leader" given to the profane masses is another useful idiot for Jesuit machinations"-C.O.
Jesuitical: pertaining to the Jesuits or their principals; designing; cunning; deceitful; prevaricating
The Jesuits completely altered the education system to suit their evolution agenda to discredit the Bible. They cant have a Satanic society of 'Do as Thou Wilt' if people still follow the Bible.
SpencerBenedict2nd 4 months ago
As an atheist, you can't enjoy religious music...? I... wha... bu... how could anyone... say something so... DAAAHH!!!!
Xsuprio 4 months ago 4
@Xsuprio I think the reason for that argument is that intense emotional experiences all produce roughly the same chemical reactions in the brain, and thus the religious confuse the feelings they get from music with the feelings they get when in church. Thus music must be from god.
Ass backwards.
1stCainite 2 months ago
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E.A.Wallis Budge translation of, 'The Papyrus of Ani' (1500BCE comp O.T.800-300BCE ish), other great writings are by Donald A. Mackenzie,' Egyptian myth and legend', James G Frazer, 'The Golden Bough', For sceptical Bible scholars try Thomas Paine, Mark Twain, Joseph Wheless, Robert Ingersoll, C.Dennis Mckinsey, Victor J Stenger, Robert M Price, Dan Barker, John W. Loftus, Bart Ehrman, Gary Greenberg, Richard Carrier, David Mills, Valerie Tarico, Israel Finkelstein, wisdomcommons
zytigon 4 months ago
I've had a crush on Lalla Ward since I was a little kid!
satyran 6 months ago 2
Boy am I glad I was born in the age of rock & roll. Did omeone hit the snooze button?
R5d4d2 6 months ago
The link between beauty and design cannot be found through logic. Logic works very well for a lot of things, but it can't understand beauty, there are other ways of knowing things besides logic.
LIGHTRONIX 6 months ago
@LIGHTRONIX "Logic works very well for a lot of things, but it can't understand beauty, there are other ways of knowing things besides logic."
Logic fail. How do you think your brain can recognize what it regards as beauty? Easy: The law of identity. A=A.
Everything that happens in your brain can be reduced to logic. Even emotions. It's just that it happens subconsciously, much like the early processing in your visual system.
Gnomefro 4 months ago 5
@LIGHTRONIX No, there isn't. Logic and reason are the basis of EVERYTHING - even illogical religion.
Beauty is a way of making our species chose "better" mates to perpetuate the better genes. I believe cultural determination and enjoyment of beauty is a way for us to become closer; a "pack mentality", the same thing religion is, in most prospects.
PredatorHuntress666 3 months ago
Because we see red as red. It is to do with the science of colours or chromatics. You assert that there is a god without evidence, therefore I can equally dismiss your assertion without evidence.
roac7777 6 months ago
I love horror and ghost stories and movies but I don't believe in god or the supernatural in any way. Fiction is fiction, it's enjoyable to read eerie stories even when you know ghosts do not exist.Not all scary stories are artistic, only some have some merit but they are fun! Art is art, it has nothing to do with belief, it has to do with enjoyment.
cmmtz2011 7 months ago
Thank you very much for that beautiful music. It is nice waking up to knowing that there is no giant cruel superman in charge of everything.
JubblyJack 7 months ago
@jshowa2 Yes Jesus is sinless.
hibiscusfire 8 months ago
Ah internet arguments, almost as pointless as an evolutionist-creationist argument.
jameshrave 9 months ago
This piece of music by Bach is sublime. What wonders a human mind can produce.
Perfect!
tkol123 9 months ago
In other words these evolutionists are saying that when people have sex they evolve each time. What a load of crap! What are humans evolving to? Aliens? When apes mated did they evolve into humans? By the way animals do not have sex, they mate, humans have sex.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
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Know the difference between animal kingdom and human race and plant life and fish life. A fish cannot mate with a dog. A dog cannot pollinate a rose. And apes cannot mate with humans. And humans cannot have sex with frogs. Evolution is a lie!
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
Most of these comments on the absurdity on evolution would be solved if those who post just read an introductory text on evolution.
Honestly, some of you are just ridiculously ignorant about the subject and should at least attempt to learn before you post. Why do you accept mechanical engineering and not genetics, hydrology but not geology?
Getting one's view of science and evolution from a priest, pastor, rabbi, or iman is like trying to learn music from a person deaf since birth. Worse.
bluegreentom 9 months ago
Dawkins is a fag.
invertedchords 9 months ago
Obviously this man is confused. How can Dawkins get married when marriage is from God? What a liar Dawkins is! Marriage is about love. God is love. And if Dawkins loves his wife then he is lying even further because evolution is not about love....God is.
hibiscusfire 10 months ago
@hibiscusfire good trolling
TheAbyrwalg 10 months ago
@TheAbyrwalg God is the Great I AM.
hibiscusfire 10 months ago
@hibiscusfire
What a load of crap!
There are two kinds of marriage, the official one for the law, and the non sence one for "god".
Only if you are married for the law, you have an official status, all the rest is bullshit.
You "god" does not exist. and the priest who represents him is selling lies.
Mesdriver 9 months ago
@Mesdriver Excuse me, God is the one who created marriages so get your facts right. Evolution would only be to have sex and change from monkey to man, or pig to bird (which is totally ridiculous because evolution is a big fat lie)
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire
Non sence.
I am legally married, for the law. my wife and I have two kids, and my wife carries my last name.
If I was only to married in the church, I still had to go to the clercks to make the status of my marriage official.
You carry on believing in your deluded non existing "god".
I have my facts straight do not worry, it is you that found your moral and "knowledge" based on a imaginary skyfriend.
You relies are pathethic.
Mesdriver 9 months ago
@Mesdriver Marriage is from God.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire
God does not exists, so how can he close a marriage between people.
Harry potter would do a better job.
He REALLY exists!
Mesdriver 9 months ago
@Mesdriver After God had made the woman as man's companion, he said to Adam: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24). God himself arranged for marriage of males and females and only males and females. God has provided information that no man could have discovered on his own. If the family evolved from pair bonding among the animals, what moral values must husbands and fathers and wives and mothers honor?
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@Mesdriver Evolutionists may be good family people, but there is nothing in evolution that would require it. When a monkey abandons his partner and offspring, we do not accuse him of being immoral. When an old sow eats her piglets, we do not indict her for murder or child abuse. If we are all animals, why are human parents imprisoned for killing their children and animal parents are not?
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@Mesdriver Evolutionists have no standard by which they can condemn mothers and fathers who sexually, emotionally or physically abuse their children. Evolutionists almost certainly do not approve of such behavior, but they cannot say it is wrong—always wrong. Their only response has to be, "We do not like it. It offends our sensitivities." But they cannot categorically condemn any kind of behavior.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire
I am getting a little sick of you.
Where does the religious people get there moral value's then?
From going to war, slittinmg each other throats, from Abraham who was willing to kill his own son?
Or from the rest of the old testament witch is nothing less than a handbook for purgary, murder, incest, rape, and torture.
YOUR socallad god by whom's standards you live is a criminal,.
We athiests have a much much higher moral standard, we will never lower ourselfs to yours.
Mesdriver 9 months ago
@Mesdriver You claim to have much much higher moral standards? Where? In your ape ancestors? Because you surely don't have anything good to say about those who believe in God. Didn't you know that name-calling is in bad taste? Also insulting?
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire
Read some scientific stuff about moral, get your bearings straight!
Where is te mind set from the bible, where van I read it?
Thought so.
You can not insult god, or allah, or jawew, since they do not exist, simple as that.
Your god, and bible are the result of thousand of year compiling ignorance, written in a book, (on of many books).
They all claim te same: " WE ARE THE ONLY TRUE RELIGION"!
Shamefull behaviour, like monkeys indeed.
Mesdriver 9 months ago
@Mesdriver Science is not about morals. Obviously you have a thing against reading the Bible so how would you know where morals are set from God?
Evolution does not exist, God does.
Evolutionists are the result of hate and crime. Evolution claims you are a monkey so don't compare humans to monkeys. Humans were made by God.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire
I asked you a question:
Where is te mind set from the bible, where can I read it?
What book, witch verse, or story?
Relidiots are always talking about: how eveil science is, how rotten the evolution is, howcome monkeys still exists, and all this.
Relinerds are almost never scientists, they are way to smart to fall for that.
Evolution has been proven thousands of times, creation not once, not even close.
We do not claim you are a monkey, we decended from the same ancester.
Mesdriver 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire Evolutionists- the result of hate and crime. Well you are just very very ignorant and by the way, I do not hate you.
notnilccm 9 months ago
@notnilccm Your mannerisms say otherwise. You can't possibly say that you love me because you do not know love.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire MY mannerisms?????? Here is my one and only quote to you- "Evolutionists- the result of hate and crime. Well you are just very very ignorant and by the way, I do not hate you". Go back and look. You are a hypocrite! It was you that called atheists hateful criminals. Typical HYPOCRITE! Stop judging people.
notnilccm 9 months ago
@notnilccm I am not judging people, only God can do that because He knows our hearts, our secrets, our thoughts. You say you do not hate me but do you love me?
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire No
notnilccm 9 months ago
@notnilccm Exactly then you hate me but I don't care if you hate me. God loves me. John 3:16 read it.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire What are you a fucking 5 year old?
notnilccm 9 months ago
@notnilccm Your language is limited.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire Your brain is limited.
notnilccm 8 months ago
@notnilccm Your life is limited without Jesus
hibiscusfire 8 months ago
@hibiscusfire Your life is limited without reality.
notnilccm 8 months ago
@notnilccm Jesus is reality
hibiscusfire 8 months ago
@hibiscusfire Human beings who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. Douglas Adams
notnilccm 8 months ago
@notnilccm There you go quoting the words of a man. All humans are unique in their own way, each has a talent no matter how small it may be, it's up to them to use it in the right way that is pleasing to God. Humans have the ability to learn, God has the wisdom and knowledge to teach us but many of humanity choose not to learn the truth.
Guess who said that?
hibiscusfire 8 months ago
@hibiscusfire Here we have a god who wanted to forgive mankind its sins. WHY DIDNT HE JUST FORGIVE THEM? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his own son tortured and executed in order that the sins of mankind should be absolved? Is that not the most disgusting idea you have ever heard? Guess who said that?
notnilccm 8 months ago
@notnilccm It's not disgusting. It's admirable.
hibiscusfire 8 months ago
@hibiscusfire Proof of mental instability.
notnilccm 8 months ago
@notnilccm God made Himself human just to come down and become the living sacrifice to shed His blood to save us. There is life in blood, so also there is eternal life in Christ Jesus. Don't you understand that? Yes God is powerful enough to make Himself human yet be God. Jesus has risen from the dead.
hibiscusfire 8 months ago
@hibiscusfire Can your God not do anything? He doesnt have to torture and murder his own son. This type of thinking is centuries old. It is sick. It is demented. And as a modern race of humans we need to move beyond it!
notnilccm 8 months ago
@notnilccm You don't get it do you? God took on a human form just to show us that He cares and knows our hurt and pain....that is why He gave His life for us to show us how much He loves us and wants us to know that. He showed us that He conquered death and there is more to what meets the eye on this earth. He made a way for us to live forever with Him. God did much more than you think. God is real and anyone who say He isn't have not met Him yet.
hibiscusfire 8 months ago
@hibiscusfire God is a figment of you hallucinations and you have not met him and Im very sorry to burst your bubble but you will never meet him outside of your subconscious. Just please dont ever strap on a bomb or do anything else stupid and I have no problem with you living in your fantasy.
notnilccm 8 months ago
@notnilccm You don't even know how to look at things in proper order showing you don't know what you are talking about. God created all things and He did it perfectly. Evil men going away from Him caused all the chaos you see. You better realize God is sacred and holy and is not mocked. If you ever studied the bible you would see what was expected of God's people. It is not an either or choice with no ramifications. It is live for God not committing sin and not living selfishly.
Skyheartstar777 8 months ago
@Skyheartstar777 The human body is quite clearly of imperfect 'design'. Was your god responsible for these imperfections ? For what purpose did he design our vestigial appendices ?
sawittisunga 8 months ago
@sawittisunga You cannot say the human body is of imperfect design.You do not know what was taking place in the very beginning and what happened after man and woman sinned.God gave a strong message to the human race as to obeying Him when He did that.He also promises everlasting life in Heaven where the human body is perfect and there is designs there that we do not know about.We will earn them by living a righteous life here on earth,just as you earn a promotion from your good work at your job.
Skyheartstar777 8 months ago
@Skyheartstar777 Let's concentrate on your idea of perfect design rather than your preaching. How would you evaluate the design skills of a designer who made the mammalian laryngeal nerve as it is ? I don't think I'd hire such a designer. Human eyes don't appear to be too well designed either. I'm also a little confused that you can tell me I can't make my statement because I wasn't there at the beginning, yet you can make all sorts of unevidenced assertions about your god. Go figure.
sawittisunga 8 months ago
@sawittisunga In your eyes is there a problem with where the mammalian laryngeal nerve and the human eyes? You get all your information from man who wrote books. It is okay for you to believe all they write but not God.Jeremiah 30:1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: 2 “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you.
Skyheartstar777 7 months ago
@Skyheartstar777 Once again I must ask you to forget your scriptures and preaching and concentrate on answering the question at hand. You appear to have trouble following the conversation. Don't veer off, stick to the point. How would you evaluate the design skills of a designer who made the mammalian laryngeal nerve and the human eye as they are ? To you do they appear to be of skilled and perfect design from a skilled and perfect designer ? These are simple questions. Please answer them.
sawittisunga 7 months ago
@sawittisunga For you to question it shows you are not God.You are on an evolution page where you speak of things changing and some to conform to surroundings and such.How do you know what the original design was and if it changed over the years?God has His reasons.Maybe the eye to filter the light that passes instead of it going straight through full force which would damage the eye.We learn from all these things.It develops our mind to branch out and explore.
Skyheartstar777 7 months ago
@Skyheartstar777 By your words, you are stating that our bodies were perfect in Eden but after the fall from "grace", our bodies were flawed. Why would your God move body parts around? Wasn't the tree the Tree of (Sinful) Knowledge, not the Tree of Knowledge and Disease and Bodily Mutilation? Can I ask why your God would punish such innocents as Adam/Eve, who could not understand that the serpent is lying, for eating the forbidden fruit? God created their ignorance and then punished them for it.
BigDiamondCutter 7 months ago
@BigDiamondCutter Evil men who went away from God brought on the disease. They were self-righteous and selfish wanting things their own way and incurred the wrath of God for sins, rightfully so.
Skyheartstar777 7 months ago
@Skyheartstar777 Why would you choose to follow teachings handed down for over 2000+ years that cannot really be traced and validated to its origins? If you claim to be an intelligent 21st century human being on this planet, surrounded by our physical reality which has been demystified by the honest inquiry and testing processes of science... can you honestly say that "God did it"? Your God occupies the smaller and smaller gaps every day of the unknown. He must be feeling rather cramped by now.
BigDiamondCutter 7 months ago
@BigDiamondCutter The only ones that will feel cramped are the unbelievers that end up in hell. Revelation 21;8
Skyheartstar777 7 months ago
@Skyheartstar777
You realize you, with that same logic, will wind up in allah's hell, buddha's reincarnation cycle, hades, helheim, mictlan and a few tens of thousans of other places you don't believe in.
Yes, christians are not the only one's trying to make others obey with their silly hallucinations turned into scare tactics in the name of the meassage love, so just prepare to clone yourself when you die and put one clone in each "hell" and then come back and I'll think about it : )
aNdYmAtTeR 7 months ago
@aNdYmAtTeR There is only one God. The other's are false. God spoke to the prophets and through them. He was with them and told them to write in a book what he tells them, teaches them (Jeremiah 30:1). I don't look into those false religions. God is love and order - those are not. Some are confusion and just general ways to live right. God is the only way. Our Lord Jesus Christ is who all should turn to for salvation.
Skyheartstar777 7 months ago
@Skyheartstar777
the bible was edited by a staff put together by the roman emperor Constantinus. There were more chapters left out of it than there are actually in the book. Are those editors also prophets?
So you don't look elsewhere? You are not interested in getting a better understanding of the world, you only want to keep what you know unchanged forever.
God is order and reality is chaos. God is man made and a projection of our pattern seeking urge, our wishes for order.
God is not love.
aNdYmAtTeR 7 months ago
@aNdYmAtTeR God most certainly is LOVE and that is how everything was created out of love. 1 John 4:8 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Skyheartstar777 7 months ago
@Skyheartstar777
Love is Love. You still have to come up with support for your claims about a god. christians have so far made any better than any of the other religions. And stop hijacking Love like it belong to your blood hungry cult. Why doesn't anybody try to communicate with this creator of the universe by any other means than silly prayers that won't do any difference. You can't make two individual on this planet experience the same thing about your god. Why?
aNdYmAtTeR 7 months ago
@Skyheartstar777 Please do not just quote a verse. I ask as a serious question on how you can justify your ability to rationalize your claim. I understand the quote but I ask why you believe that it is truth? Who told you it was true...who told that person and so on.Is it possible that perhaps there is a slight chance that it is not true? If there is no chance then what is your absolute proof that demonstrates that you know it is true? If not, does it make you think about the poss. of falsehood?
BigDiamondCutter 7 months ago
@Skyheartstar777 For a moment please seriously consider what I previously said. I understand that you believe that your faith is extremely important and central to your perception of whom you are. Understand that you share the same perception of people that lived 2000 years ago. What makes us different from them? Simply, the knowledge that we have obtained by observation, testing, and verifying our data. What have we discovered? Massive evidence to the contrary of many holy books of the world!
BigDiamondCutter 7 months ago
@Skyheartstar777 I have studied the bible yet still totally disagree with you ,the reason for this is I have also studied a great many other books . Just because somthing is written down does not make it true
TheBattlebunker 8 months ago
@TheBattlebunker In the bible it states that all scripture is given to men moved by the Holy Spirit or God-breathed. God was with the people in those times. If anyone writes anything false they will answer for it. Revelation 22:18
Skyheartstar777 7 months ago
@hibiscusfire wow, just wow... lol just wow
saugustus1 8 months ago
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@notnilccm Galatians 6:7 - 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
Skyheartstar777 8 months ago
@hibiscusfire
One more thing before I close this useless conversation.
You obviously do not have the SLIGHTEST clue how evolution works you never have read any scientific book about the subject, the phiscal development, and the mental development, nothing whatsoever.
You simply do not have a clue, just stupid religious retoric, my god say this, my god says that.
Disgusting primitive behaviour, like all religious no brainers.
The world be be a MUCH better place without you numbs.
Mesdriver 9 months ago
@Mesdriver "Disgusting primitive behaviour" aren't your "ape ancestors" with the primitive behaviour including your so-called evolved brain because you do lack the knowledge of morals.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire Parents cannot abuse their children because it causes their children pain. Do no harm, that is our moral code.
DissenteensInRevolt 9 months ago
@DissenteensInRevolt You are making no sense at all.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire I'll talk slowly. Pain=bad. Empathy=good. Causing living beings pain is wrong. Causing a rational being pain is usually unnecessary and evil. I have morals and I don't need an invisible policeman to use them.
DissenteensInRevolt 9 months ago
@DissenteensInRevolt You're still not making any sense
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire You've outdone yourself here too.
sawittisunga 8 months ago
@hibiscusfire I've rarely read such utter nonsense as you've written there.
sawittisunga 8 months ago
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hibiscusfire 7 months ago
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@sawittisunga you are the one who cannot determine sense from nonsense
hibiscusfire 7 months ago
@hibiscusfire You're going to have to qualify your last statement for me. How and where have I shown myself unable to differentiate sense from nonsense? I simply let you know that your statement about Prof. Dawkins' marriage is clearly utter nonsense. What do you think is the likelihood that he and his wife were married in a religious ceremony ? Low to zero, right ? And so his marriage to, and love for, his wife have nothing to do with mythical deities. The god you speak of is yours, not his.
sawittisunga 7 months ago
@sawittisunga God is God of all mankind.
hibiscusfire 7 months ago
@hibiscusfire Sounds very much like totalitarianism to me. Just because you subscribe to it doesn't mean everyone else does. Nor does it mean it's real anywhere other than inside your head. It's arrogant and scary almost beyond belief for you to assume that we are all subject to the whims of characters in myths to which to choose to subscribe. Think about what you're saying...then seek help.
sawittisunga 7 months ago
@sawittisunga is red, yellow? Or is Yellow, red?
hibiscusfire 7 months ago
@hibiscusfire "God is God of all mankind" Justify such a claim. You have no evidence. A claim that is asserted without evidence can just as easily be dismissed without evidence.
roac7777 6 months ago
@roac7777 can you give evidence why red is red?
hibiscusfire 6 months ago
if youre an artist i will ask you: from where is the origin of your design?
from Dawkins i would ask, all this order you have found, in nature and inter species relations, from where do these ordered laws of constants and variables arrise? you are observing, in marvel, what you cannot fathom, you must admit that you are not responsible for its overwealming weight of depth and energies. if not you then is that force not also so dwarfing of your own potencies that you can only watch in comparison
InWonderandAwe 10 months ago
@InWonderandAwe :)
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
they are scientists, not artists, therfore they do not have the credulance to make a statement on the self evident existance of God to a talented human being of that creative caliber. creation is what artists and god have so much in common. this is my opinion as an artist, i will let them continue to theorize and calculate, and possibly their calculations are great and impressive, however, they approach from the vantage of one who has nothing in common with God. They have no interest to engage.
InWonderandAwe 10 months ago
@InWonderandAwe Exactly&what is so amazing is that these people who do not believe that God made us cannot even trace anything as solid proof that we came from bacteria.Dawkins is claiming that bacteria evolved into apes which bacteria is the basis of life.Where did the bacteria come from&how would bacteria be able to transform into blood since a bacterial cell contains no blood?How can bacteria form fish,fruits,vegetables,a finger nail of a human being?Then they're saying bacteria is their god?
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire
Stupid idiot!
Mesdriver 9 months ago
@Mesdriver I know you are. Oh oh. You really need to come out of that rot friend.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@Mesdriver Why don't you try answering the question after looking in the mirror?
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire
Is is useless to ask questions to religious numb heads.
My question to you was: Where is the mind set from the bible, where can I read it?
What book, witch verse, or story?
No answer, but rhetorical nonsense, as usual.
I am an atheist, and I think my moral standards are way higher than the standards of your murdering god.
When I look in the mirror I see a man who has made many miss stakes, but I can look everybody straight in the eye.
I do not deceive like your god does!
Mesdriver 9 months ago
@Mesdriver You don't know anything.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire
As expected, no answer, whatsoever.
Nothing from the dumb religious.
Mesdriver 9 months ago
@Mesdriver What a pleasant way you have about you.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire
A socalled sarcastic remark.
But: no answer as expected, as usually.
Sleep on religious numb, sleep on and pray to your "god".
Your life is wasted.
Mesdriver 9 months ago
@Mesdriver You don't have love in your heart except bitterness and hate. You are cruel and mean human being. And if that is from evolution, then it is no wonder, because you don't have any morals or love in your heart.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire
Still no answer?
Only unfundated religious non sense.
But still no answer.
Mesdriver 9 months ago
@Mesdriver My answers are direct and true. Think about it.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire
WHAT ANSWERS????
Moron!
Mesdriver 9 months ago
@Mesdriver Scroll back and read and think. Unless your mind did not "evolve" properly which to me it didn't in the opinion of evolution. You are no-body in evolution. You have no purpose and a total waste of space on this earth. That is what evolution is. No one means anything. With God we are special and loved.
hibiscusfire 9 months ago
@hibiscusfire we all know this is a dream/fantasy that you need to uphold, but it has no basis in reality
saugustus1 8 months ago
@TheAlexington interesting behavior, an apparent internal contradiction that makes the discourse all but a mask.
DemokritosAbdera 11 months ago
@TheAlexington no, you didnt understand.
DemokritosAbdera 11 months ago
@TheAlexington Ahhh the oblivius work of making language mean nothing just for the sake of sounding good.
DemokritosAbdera 11 months ago
@functionalist972 I never thought that a piece of music could be 'god,' but it certainly seems more plausible than that awful creature from the Old Testament. I experience beauty and mystery in music. I only see the baser emotions and behavioral tendencies of *humans* when I encounter their descriptions of 'god.' Jealousy, anger, hatred, wrathfulness--'god,' it appears, is a pure reflection of the human mind.
But music...that's divine.
shantih433 11 months ago
Religion is the revelation to man of his divine and eternal destiny. Religion is a purely personal and spiritual experience and must forever be distinguished from man’s other high forms of thought, such as:
1. Man’s logical attitude toward the things of material reality.
2. Man’s aesthetic appreciation of beauty contrasted with ugliness.
3. Man’s ethical recognition of social obligations and political duty.
4. Even man’s sense of human morality is not, in and of itself, religious.
fabekuso 11 months ago
beauty and art and music might not prove the existence of god,but it is hard to explain away all these things and our preception of them from a purely mechanistic point of view.There are many people who may not by into the christian monotheistic viewpoint but still have some sense of spirituality.Dawkins seems unable to comprehend this.
akhilasraya 11 months ago
Who the frak has those kinds of arguments and beliefs? "how DARE someone have talent that I don't, it must be God"??? I agree Shakespeare does not prove God's existence, but believing that great composers and writers were inspired by God does not equal jealousy and blind faith. It merely shows that such a person believes in a God who helps humanity help itself, to encourage great thinking, to bring about enlightenment and independence -opposite the view atheists think we have.
rabidfox1 11 months ago
Dawkins married Romana? That lucky duck....
.... Oh yeah, great video.
ComatoseFly 11 months ago
With a wife as hot as that, Dawkins should know a thing or two about beauty!
RadicalWhig 1 year ago
also Im so sick of this argument "god exists" "no he does'nt" I really dont give a shit!
also had to laugh when he said if god is there or if he isnt not very atheist lol
I lost interest in this guy as soon as he called for militant atheism. Bad enough weve had dogmatic religion for thousands of years now we have to put up with dogmatic science dawkins is an evolutionary biologist he knows little about quantum physics or thermo dynamics mega fail for those who hang on his words.
stevensonjames26 1 year ago
a very poorly written book.
stevensonjames26 1 year ago
the stupidest argument ever from the theist side
Freethinker12341 1 year ago
"Why would bugs evolve if they do ok already?"
So you're saying bugs never evolved?
TheTruthPusher 1 year ago
They crack open Amber (ancient tree sap) to get out the bugs that were trapped in the sap when it was wet. These 50 million year old bugs hadn't evolved at all, they were the same bugs as today.
TheTruthPusher 1 year ago
@TheTruthPusher So this proves evolution wrong and is strangely ignored by even most religious scientists?
ac1th 1 year ago
@ac1th
Religious Scientists are Pro-Creation, not taking money from the dung family running the world for Satan, thus, Religious Scientists, are the ones telling us about the bugs trapped in Amber, and you ac1th, are a dispicable disinfo agent. Why don't you go try to sell someone the offical 911 story.
TheTruthPusher 1 year ago
@TheTruthPusher Right. Again, this would revolutionize science and yet noone seems to care about it?
ac1th 1 year ago
@TheTruthPusher You need to realize that "you are all wrong, god did it" works in every single situation. And that's why it should be disregarded, you can't research stuff if the first conclusion you draw is "god did it, wow isn't he wonderful, it's divine I won't look into it".
Several scientists in earlier ages did that and missed the chance of clearing up some issues and gaining understanding about what actually happened.
Why would bugs evolve if they do ok already?
ac1th 1 year ago
Beauty is the illusion caused by our adaptation to a universe with 'elegant' laws.
starsoffyre 1 year ago
@starsoffyre But if recognizing the elegant laws of the universe have caused us to appreciate beauty, why should you claim beauty to be an illusion ??
bachlover99 1 year ago
@bachlover99
The 'elegant' laws enabled us to exist only because of the (strong) anthropic principle. If beauty isn't the result of adaptation, why would a male cockroach lust at the female cockroach while you get disgusted at it?
starsoffyre 1 year ago
@starsoffyre Since "beauty" at the human level (or any known to us) is subjective it's validity cannot be proved or disproved. Your initial comment is thus nothing more than an opinion. Carry on seeing it as an illusion if you will, I know which world I would rather live in.
bachlover99 1 year ago
@bachlover99
//Since "beauty" at the human level (or any known to us) is subjective it's validity cannot be proved or disproved. Your initial comment is thus nothing more than an opinion.//
While beauty itself is subjective, the fact that we see beauty in our world logically follows from the conclusion that we have adapted to it.
starsoffyre 1 year ago
@starsoffyre "While beauty itself is subjective, the fact that we see beauty in our world logically follows from the conclusion that we have adapted to it."
What is it we have adapted to, beauty or the world ?
bachlover99 1 year ago
@bachlover99
Beauty, because we adapted to the 'beautiful' world. In case you misunderstood my use of language, I was not asserting that my view is irrefutable nor a definite truth. I posted it as my own theory of beauty. Are you a theist?
starsoffyre 1 year ago
@bachlover99
//Carry on seeing it as an illusion if you will, I know which world I would rather live in.//
Now this sounds more of a personal opinion. I can see it as subjective while you see it as objective? So the beauty of an arbitrarily shaped landscape is considered beautiful because it is, not even if the organism's brain didn't adapt to it?
If you are talking about elegant laws, the explanation is simple: the anthropic principle. That's a different level of beauty.
starsoffyre 1 year ago
@starsoffyre Agreed, It is an opinion, but I don't think I have posted anything that could be construed as anything other than an opinion, unlike yourself and other notable atheists, who arrogantly write or post "opinions" masquerading as "truths" shrouded in so called irrefutable "logic".
Now you talk of levels of beauty ?? Perhaps you have codified them, a scientific approach to the different levels of beauty as perceived by all animate (perhaps even inanimate) objects ?? Please explain.
bachlover99 1 year ago
@bachlover99
What I meant was, the beauty in the elegance of the laws of the Universe is different from the one about the beauty in landscapes in which I was referring to. The beauty in the laws of the Universe is no illusion, because it has enabled us to exist. However, that is explained by the anthropic principle, which states that the reason the laws of the Universe are elegant is because it has to be in order for us to exist and observe it in the first place.
starsoffyre 1 year ago
@bachlover99
Another form of beauty much similar to that of the elegance of the Universe is mathematics. Depending on how you see it, mathematics could also be seen as an adaptation to our Universe which relies and works on it. The previous argument which I put up about the illusion of beauty only referred to the beauty of natural physical objects.
starsoffyre 1 year ago
@IXianGriffin I'm not religious,I neither believe or disbelieve.Love like music is universal,it cross's all boundaries it really needs no explanation.Hate needs to be explained and Dawkins hates religion,so like all phoney guru's dicky's explaining all the way to the bank,see through him.
pointreven 1 year ago
A man who loves does not have to explain,a man who hates never stops, and dawkins will go on explaining till he dies,and when he does could he come back and let us all know that there is definitely nothing there.This music is beautiful by the way.
pointreven 1 year ago 2
@pointreven thats nonsense... opionative,, and down right wrong... If he explains he hates but if religious people explain it is something different?
IXianGriffin 1 year ago
the more powerful argument from beauty is not that schuberts or bachs music exists, but that we are able to experience the "feeling" (or whatever it is) of beauty. there is something about being struck by awe and beauty that makes you abandon all logic, reason and evidence. beauty is, as an experience, emotionally more powerful, deep and moving than reason and logic. that's not to say that this is evidence for any fictional character, but it's a decent argument for transcendence in general
GeistWerk 1 year ago 2
@GeistWerk That is...pretty vague. What does that mean? Decent argument, for transcedence? Is that something after factual world? What does world without factueal meaning, mean?
Tenebrousable 1 year ago
@Tenebrousable the feeling of beauty and awe (the experience itself) is so deep and significant (at least that's how it feels) that in that experience it is almost reasonable to abandon a world view that is purely based on logic, objectivity and sense perceptions. I know what you're thinking; "feelings are not evidence". if the feeling is powerful enough, you don't need evidence. when you wake up in the morning, you feel that you're awake, you don't need any evidence.
GeistWerk 1 year ago
@GeistWerk But there is evidence that others can look for to verify it, were it necessary: brain wave patterns, responsiveness of pupils, ability to track and respond to stimuli, etc. etc.
Subjective feelings are NOT evidence of objective truth, no matter how powerful. You can't just wave your hands and declare that they are because you wish for it to be so.
DanThePropMan 1 year ago
@DanThePropMan subjective feelings are not evidence of objective truth but why do you assume that subjectivity is less relevant than objectivity? the only way to explore the subjective is direct experience. looking at brain wave patterns is not exploring the subjective mind, it is exploring the objective world. science is only concerned with the objective. spirituality is concerned with the subjective. why do you think that the objective is somehow more real than the subjective?
GeistWerk 1 year ago
@GeistWerk Looking at brain wave patterns being "exploring the objective" was my point exactly. Subjective feelings can and should be corroborated with objective evidence. I have no problem with subjective experiences as evidence, but I disagree with your statement that "if the feeling is powerful enough, you don't need evidence," because it leads to half-baked arguments like "I know God exists, I feel it in my heart," or "I know ghosts exist, I saw one with my own eyes."
DanThePropMan 1 year ago
@DanThePropMan you are misunderstanding what I am saying. arguments like "I know God exists (objectively!), because I feel it" are bullshit, I agree. what I am saying is "I have a certain experience of awe or beauty and the experience itself (not what causes it. not the brain wave pattern but the subjective experience) is a reality that is more relevant/real/true to me than anything objective could ever be". subjective feelings are not evidence,they are a reality that can be directly experienced
GeistWerk 1 year ago
@GeistWerk Then I think we've been agreeing all along, and merely talking past each other. I get it now. Thanks for clarifying.
DanThePropMan 1 year ago
Comment removed
bachlover99 1 year ago
So I did finally listen to Richard Dawkins and Lalla Ward talking. They both underline what for me is self evident in this wonderful music. That is a yearning for something which is "beyond our muddled fragmented lives". A yearning for something which is perhaps unattainable in our human existence. I'm sure neither would agree because they both believe themselves to be unnassailably "human", invulnerable, and full of the grace of "human knowledge", by which they will ultimately conquer all.
bachlover99 1 year ago
Jesus Christ average atheists get dumber and dumber
tell to physicists that criteria of beauty and elegance dont matter in their works
Rockstafeller 1 year ago
@Rockstafeller Actually, statistics say atheists are on average smarter. Besides that, did your post have any point whatsoever?
Murdulo 1 year ago
I find his voice soothing, he has such perfect diction and phrases his sentences so effortlessly, with nary an um, oh, or need to restate his ideas. How does he do it? I aspire to such eloquence.
2degucitas 1 year ago
Certainly the beauty argument for the existence of a deity is as invalid as all the rest.
Richard Dawkins isn't quite right to claim that, for example, works attributed to Shakespeare prove the existence of the Bard: they could have been written by someone else :)
slartibartfats 1 year ago
If I was a christian I would for sure not kill , rape or enslave people. As an atheist I'm not really sure what is stopping me now....?
PowerRedBull 1 year ago
@PowerRedBull I think you need a counsellor, and I really hope that Richard Dawkins or Lalla Ward are there to help you.
bachlover99 1 year ago
Well Bach was a committed Lutheran, he clearly believed in God and his unshakeable belief helped him to write the most beautiful music in the world.
All I would ask is "What has your belief in nothing" helped you to achieve?
bachlover99 1 year ago
@bachlover99 How can you equate atheism as a "belief in nothing"? There are just as many beautiful and fascinating things in the universe for the atheist to marvel at. That's Richard Dawkins' point. I don't need to find meaning in a God that may or may not exist. There's enough meaning in the world and my life without that.
inspi 1 year ago
@inspi When Atheists have proved they can produce such sublime music etc. as this then I might begin to listen.
Atheism=denial of God (higher authority). If you believe this then things only happen by chance, there are no rules. However even RD would admit to there being a set rules which govern our known universe. Perhaps you can "find meaning" in a such set of rules that apparently arrived randomly from nothing ? I have no idea what you call this "set of rules", GOD is good enough for me.
bachlover99 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@bachlover99 Ran out of room -I have no idea what you call this "set of rules", and the "power/authority" that binds them. GOD is good enough for me.
bachlover99 1 year ago
@bachlover99 ran out of space I have no idea what you call this "set of rules" or more importantly its arbiter. GOD is good enough for me.
bachlover99 1 year ago
@bachlover99
by saying "GOD is good enough for me. " you imply that you settle for low standards, while also implying there are higher standards (since low standards can not excist without higher ones). So you believe because it's "just easy for you to follow" , or " just simple to understand" , but yet are actually stating that you *do* know better than that. That is fooling yourself, while actually knowing better. It's choosing lazyness over the truth. ....why?
PowerRedBull 1 year ago
@PowerRedBull Not sure I understand the "fuzzy logic" here. What I meant by "God is good enough for me" is that I believe that there is a higher authority (and not just complete random nothingness) that has ordered our known universe. What that authority really is I do not know, but the concept of "GOD" is good enough for me. And the power and expression of music such as this leads me to believe that the Christian god revealed by Jesus could perhaps be closer to the model than your nothing.
bachlover99 1 year ago