The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, BECAUSE they refused to love the truth and SO BE SAVED.
HOW could they "be Saved" when Calvins Limited Atonement claims Jesus NEVER DIED for them to Begin with!!?
Wrong. Foreknowledge = to Know in adavance 1 Peter 1:19-20
...but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you..
Christ the Lamb to be sacrificed was FOREKNOWN, not foreloved... Mark Driscoll errs because he doesn't know the Scriptures. CALVINISM is Not christianity.
This is just so tough for me to listen to. The part that Mark always leaves out is how this effects everyone else. It doesn't make sense that God only elects "a few" and the rest never stood a chance because "no one seeks God, not one." If we have no say in the matter of salvation (i'm referring to the option to say yes or no) then God predestines people to hell. God is not a respecter of persons nor has anyone sought after God, but If what Mark is saying is true then election was a dice roll.
One form of Moderate Calvinism which drops the limited atonement in favor of an unlimited atonement which says that God has provided Christ's atonement for all alike, but seeing that none would believe on their own, he then elects those whom he will bring to faith in Christ. Moderate Calvinism holds to the four points of Calvinism please look up or join a theology class on the debate of Armenian and Calvinism. Theology class's are amazing!
"moderate Calvinism"---lol, that's like saying partly Christian. It doesn't work. Sorry, if you're going to name yourself after an ideal of doctrines(Calvinism)--then you subscribe to them all, or you find a different name.
Either way, all 5 points stand or fall together--it's quite upsetting that many "Calvinists" don't even understand this.. if you take out the "L" in TULIP---you're automatically teaching universalism. There's a reason the "L" is there, even if it's a lie.
These Calvinists worship a god oftheir own making who Claim He created people & Purposed in His Mind & Heart to BURNING them FOREVER "Before they were BORN or had done ANYTHING either good or bad" or had "any knowledge of Good or Evil", from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD "for His GOOD PLEASURE" to "Glorify Himself".
O How BEAUTIFUL are the feet of those Calvinists who preach the good news!
@Isaiah1v18 U didn't even answer his/her question. don't you know that even James Armeinian agreed with John Calvin. people who are Moderate Calvinist fellow scripture more closely then a Armenian because even a Armenian has to agree that god is all Sovereign.
Also you are talking about Extreme Calvinism. which most Calvinist think is unorthodox, so you are partiality right but to say moderate Calvinism isn't a good theological idea then clearly you are a heretic.
So predestination basically = "God's intended fate". In this sermon you just gave the good examples for the team that "gets picked"... What about the millions of others in or going to Hell who didn't get picked?
I'll leave it at one question cause I'd really like a response from you as I'm seeking answers.
I agree with how awesome your interpretation is for believers... but it is so hard for me to accept doctrine saying that God has also predestined many for eternal damnation.
Aha! I see the beauty of election and predestination. It is that the Father won't fail us but will find every one of us lost sheep. We will not be abandoned. I get this now. But the ugly side... if not all are elect, is that some are not elect, and it seems capricious and not fair. If I am saved and elect then how can I enjoy his grace when my brothers are rejected, especially if I didn't earn it? But at least through this video now I see the beautiful side of this theology. I wonder now....
The god of calvinism "commands" Adam & Eve to obey, but has SOVEREIGNLY DECREED for them to disobey to BURN them FOREVER, who purposed their DAMANTION in his mind & heart from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD, "BEFORE they were born or had done anything either good or bad" for "His GOOD pleasure" to "Glorify Himself", then tries to justify his deception under the illusion that they're going to hell for "Sin".
Calvinism GLORIFIES SATAN himself perverting the Scriptures, masquerating as GOD.
@Isaiah1v18 Hey friend how's it goin? I'm seekin the Truth in Scripture but just wanna bring up a point. God is omniscient. Which means He knows everything (1 John 3:19-20, 1 Samuel 2:3, Psalm 147:5, Job 37:16). This is a Biblical truth. Now lets say God raises a man up, gives him free will to either choose Him or choose Satan. So it's the man's choice. But we know God knows all things. So why would He raise Judas and Saul up, if He knows they are not going to turn to Him and go to hell?
@Isaiah1v18 Also I would encourage you to read Matthew 13:24-43. The story of the weeds has been something I've been really meditating on. Jesus called the Pharisees 'Children of Satan' and those who did the Father's will as "Children of God". I'm not stepping into anything or saying anything friend since “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law"- Deuteronomy 29:29. God bless
We are stained with the original sin of Adam while we were still in our mothers womb.. before we ever commit our first sin. Before the foundation of the world was lay, everyone was 'predestined' to Heaven.. but, since the Fall of Man, everybody is now predestined to Hell. We hear the Word and the Holy Spirit speaks to our heart.. and we either yield to the Spirit and believe on Christ, receiving eternal life.. or we reject it. And it continues until one finally yields or never yields to the HS.
(cont) If one dies without yielding to the Holy Spirit, one perishes. Christ died for ALL ..Gods Gift of Grace was offered to ALL. Even in Gods Sovereignty, He gives us Free-Will to make informed choices. He wills that NONE should perish but, many do because they chose to reject Christ. Many are called (there are MANY people in the world) few are chosen. When we turn to Christ, God chooses/elects to save us. God knows who will accept Christ but, He still makes the offer to ALL.AMEN!
@Isaiah1v18 Of course God desires every man to spend eternity with Him; however, His eternal saving purpose must surpass His desires. You and I both know not everyone goes to heaven. God's choices are based on His sovereign purpose, not His desires.
God receives glory by showing grace and mercy on sinners. (Eph 2:2)
God is sovereign in salvation, but men are still responsible for their own sin. Salvation is from the Lord. (Jon 2:9)
@jcfrenz1 If God desires every man to spend eternity with him but his purposes are not in agreement with these desires, then you are claiming that God has desires contrary to what will glorify him. This is saying that God is unable to accomplish what he desires.
Some of you youtube Calvinists claim that whatever God desires God does and this doing what he wants and pleases defines goodness. You misuse the term 'sovereign' to mean God is a puppeteer. This isn't sovereignty.
@jcfrenz1 I'll put it more simply what I said. You are saying that God cannot do or that it would be WRONG for him to do what he wants. If he desires all to go to heaven, but saving purposes trump these desires, then what makes it right for a being to predestine another being to go to heaven before birth? What makes these saving purposes right and God's desires wrong?
@jcfrenz1 I'm sorry, I have to add one more thing to your view that God's purposes are at odds with his desires. In other words, your view of God is that this deity is having a Calvinistic Romans 7 experience with two natures. Who shall set him free? "22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, "
@Xallia621 Romans 3:10 no one is good not even one. We All deserve to go to hell, but out of God's grace and mercy some of us were chosen to spend eternity with Him.
@jcfrenz1 "Romans 3:10 no one is good not even one. We All deserve to go to hell, but out of God's grace and mercy some of us were chosen to spend eternity with Him."
This is partiality in judgment.Lev 19:15, 35; Deut 1:17 Prov 18:5 It is not good to accept the person of the wicked, to overthrow the righteous in judgment. Prov 24:23; Deut 16:19; Job 8:3; Oh, and Gal 1:7
@baaaconman I do not know of any calvinists who believe that God created sin."
Very well, lest test your consistency;
Do people choose to Sin OUTSIDE of Gods Causal Sovereign Will & Decree? Or is it, BECAUSE of Gods Causal Sovereign Will & Decree, that people then "choose" to sin?
I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. (Romans 9:11-16 NASB)
@baaaconman The early gnostics used that same passage to show that both sin and conversion were monergistic. This is long before Pelagius and Augustine.
Those who don't study history are condemned to repeat it.
@adstarAPAD What kind of God does the calvinist dogma declaring?" THE GOD OF THE BIBLE! "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses,
@baaaconman "What kind of God does the calvinist dogma declaring?" THE GOD OF THE BIBLE!" Many disagree with you. In fact, they feel just as strong as you, but are of the persuasion that your calvinist god is nothing but the Serpent with the attributes of deity TACKED on to it. They hold that your god is really the devil warned about in Scripture. Given the fact that the devil is real, it is worth considering their position and not be so sure about your own.
He is mixing up God's love for His creation with the calvinist dogma. Making calvinism taste sweet to the mouth. But when it enters the inside one realizes that calvanisim declares that God created people who would never be selected. People who where created to Burn in the eternal lake of fire... What kind of God does the calvinist dogma declare?? Dwell on this.
@AdstarAPAD one of them just finished saying that God desires that those he has created to go to hell to be with him for eternity instead of them going to hell. Now these Calvinists claim that God is forbidden to do what he wants. If his saving purposes trump his desires, then they imply that God desires what is not right. He's having a calvinist's romans 7 two natures experience. Who shall set him free?
@fractalfires1 Fractalfires. I think you have messed up your post to me. God is not in hell. No one says that God wants people to go to hell to be with Him. I am not sure what the rest of your post means, It is very confusing to me.
God through the Holy Spirit calls many but few are chosen. People can resist the moving of the Holy Spirit. Jesus would have all men to be saved but some men reject conviction, They hate the Love of the truth but have joy in unrighteousness. The dogma that God forces some to accept and blocks others from embracing Jesus is the toxic doctrine of calvin.
@isaiah1v18 I do not know of any calvinists who believe that God created sin. But since I don't believe that He did I would consequently disagree with any one who does believe that God created sin.
@Isaiah1v18 I fail to see why you are contradicting me on a point that you do not disagree with me on. And you quote the bible just to say that you don't believe what it says. But I checked several other versions and they said disaster calamity and sorrow. So the word for evil clearly does not mean sin in the context.
Really? According to most Calvinists He certainly did.
Isaiah 45:7 KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things.
Calvinists, such as WCOFTheology & 5PointBaptist, have openly declared God as the ULTIMATE CAUSE/Unmoved Mover of ALL moral Evil & SIN & have declared GOD as the one bringing SIN into Existance & then imposing this EVIL unto man for "His GOOD PLEASURE" to Glorify Himself"
It's interesting why you don't see all the so called Arminian preachers ridicule and put down the Calvinists but you see so many self proclaimed prideful "elect" Calvinists slam those who don't believe their way through their interpretation of the scriptures. The world doesn't need satan distracting them, it has Christians fighting with each other. What a sad example to my non Christian loved ones that I want to see saved. Election? Paul had a choice when he was knocked of his horse anyway
@Isaiah1v8 Evil in and of itself is not a thing. Otherwise it would have had to have been created. Evil is the absence of good. Cold and darkness are not things either. Cold is the absence of heat, dark is the absence of light. God did not creat evil. As to imposing it upon people, he does not do that either. We as humans have a sin nature. Apart from the grace of God we would sin at every opportunity. Good is dependent on God.
Jesus said he did NOT come to destroy mens lives but to save them after leaving a town of unbelievers (Lk. 9:56 NASB), Why then would Jesus Command his disciples to preach the "Gospel" to "every creature" in our modern times, by sending out a "General Calling of Repentance" according to Calvinism, to the Reprobate when Jesus NEVER died for them to Begin with?
John wrote, 1 John 2:1 "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that YOU MAY NOT SIN..."
Why would John, write "so that YOU may NOT sin" when in Calvinism, SIN is FIRST SOVEREIGNLY brought into EXISTANCE by God who then IMPOSES this SIN & CAUSALLY ORDAINEDS it on men TO SIN for "His Good Pleasure" to "Glorify Himself"?
@droptozro "for though the twins(Jacob and Esau) were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that Gods purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER' just as it is written 'JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."Romans 9:11. Also Calvinism does not teach that people do not have a choice. that would be nonsense. It teaches that our choice is under the sovereignty of God
Calvinism/Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Theology are from the pit of Hell.....they are heresies that make God Almighty a sinner and not just a sinner but the Author of ALL sin.
Every child raped....every women beaten...every person murdered...every deceitful business deal...every cruelty man has done, was authored by God. It is a blasphemous false religion and many otherwise fine Bible teachers are promoting it today. MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, are some of them. Flee and Repent of Calvinism!!
@baaaconman It's not good news in calvinism... It's real my bad news. Go ahead and preach the full truth of your view, tell people they have no choice they were chosen(most people) from eternity past to go to hell. Wicked misunderstanding of scripture... Repent!
Ahhh, so we only have hope "IF" God loved us before time (8:00). Keep in mind, if you don't fall into the "loved" category (i.e. reprobate), you have NO hope.
@sourceserker1 the reason that we preach the gospel is that God has predestined not only the end but also the means "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" (Romans 10:14, 15 NASB)
If as Calvin proclaimed salvation is secure because of God's decision to save people before they were even born, why preach the gospel, isn't an attempt to get someone to understand the gospel equivelant to helping a person meet the reqirements of born again salvation and therefore is not the security of salvation based on coming correctly to God, receiving at that point an irrevokable transformation and regeneration and not a choosing by God arbitrarily of who will go to heaven and hell?
@Mirewood You violate God's law. EVERYONE chooses to rebell, and run from God. We are dead in sin, and the Lord offers Jesus' atonment on the cross has your penalty being payed, if you see that and turn away from that, you do not deserve mercy, and God being the just God He is, doesn't let things go unpunished. It's a paradox, that is the glory of God.
@Mirewood It's a response to us rebelling against God. We do not seek God- no one does. (Romans 3:11) You violate Gods law throughout the day, everyday. So, yes, we do deserve hell.
@Mirewood and you're a christian, yet you believe that? I would love to give you the good person test in accordance to Gods law in the ten commandments, but like me, you would fail miserably.
NAME BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE IF WE DO NOT OVERCOME (this is by the Power of God of Course but we must be a part of it because WE ARE) John 3:16 WHOSOEVER WILL Then Means NOTHING in ETERNAL SECURITY & ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED! Eternal Security Stinks from the Pits of Hell! WHOSOEVER WILL of John 3: 16 in Eternal Security IS OUT!
@Mirewood Have you ever told a lie? If So....then you are a liar. How many murders do you have to commit to be a murderer? Just one. If you have told even one 'small' lie, that makes you a liar before God. You may not lying is a serious sin, but God does. Are you guilty or Innocent?
In Calvinism, God Purposely Decreeds for Man to come into Existance DEAD, INVOLUNTARILY created to love SIN from the moment of conception, having NO ABILITY to repent or beg for mercy, the vast majority FATED for DAMNATION, PREDESTINED to burn forever, CHOSEN for Eternal Punishment, "Before having done anything either good or bad" for "His good pleasure" to "Glorify Himself".
@bammc19 "its a beautiful thing... The question is why does God choose anyone at all? We all deserve hell..."
Why do people "deserve hell" for being INVOLUNTARILY created GUILTY DEAD SINNERS, TOTALLY DEPRAVED babies in the WOMB "BEFORE having done ANYTHING either good or bad" lacking ALL ability to repent orbeg for mercy?
@Mirewood You may exist because of your parents action, but they didn't design you. I don't know what or who you believe designed us. Perhaps you believe that we are just here by chance and that when you die, you cease to exist. If we are here by chance than there is no real ultimate purpose in life. I'm thankful I live for a reason.
@Mirewood I have done nothing to deserve life, it's all God's grace. There is a difference between meeting you and meeting God, God created me and gave me life he has every right to do what He wants with me. Punishment is a response to sin God created us to love Him and our neighbor with our heart, mind and soul. If we lack, it is a sin. By Jesus' blood we are cleaned from sin. Hell is simply a place where God is not. If you're not with God in this life, you wont be with Him in the next life.
@Mirewood Then the questions are: What have you done to deserve God sparing you from Hell? and Why did Jesus die? Why would God send His only Son to suffer and die for your sins? We all deserve hell for our sins, BUT Jesus faced God's wrath of sin for us :) That is the Gospel!
God wants use all and that God will use us all if we get out of the way. But predestination is kinda weird for me to accept, God is outside of time and knows everything therefore knows what we will do but we don't know and thus can go either way to heaven or Hell. So @GazawayJD I agree with you
The one I disagree with Driscoll on. Literally, the only thing. It implies that God picks his favorites, and that God chooses only certain people. That God would ever choose one sinner over another is contradicting to the nature of God, as God hates all sin, and therefore all sinners. I personally believe that God knows who will pick him, but that he specifically chose them? I think there are pre-elect, such as the prophets and Jesus, who were sent with a mission.
God does choose, we cannot choose Him. We are incapable, in our sin nature to do so. (Romans 3:11) Its a beautiful thing when you think about it- the question is not "why did God not choose certain people" The question is why does God choose anyone at all? We all deserve hell... but God in his sovereignty reaches down and grabs you- Nothing you did to deserve eternal life with him completely out of his mercy. God does love His children more than those who are not. (1 Peter 1:2)
@bammc19 Read Romans 3:20. It implies that before we were saved, we were unaware of our sin because it is in our nature. However through "the law", in other words Jesus and his teachings, we become conscious of our sin. The Old Testament reference by Paul in verse 11 speaks of those who rejected the laws of God, and therefore were not able to pursue God.
I totally agree that we all deserve hell, and once we are accepted into his Kingdom through Christ, we are His children, whom he favors.
If God didn't choose us for any reason, except that He is good, then why did he only choose some of us? And how did he choose us over the others? Also, why does Paul try to persuade people to follow God, when they have no choice in the matter?
@QuelDroma366 Your looking at it from a point of view that who ever isn't Christian in the moment is condemned. God uses people to reach the elect who are in the world and don't know him but God knows the beginning and end of everything in this world so he knows that his elect will be reached before the end.
@QuelDroma366 He chose Christians in accordance with the pleasure of His will. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[b] predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.
He also chose to pass over others to show His Wrath toward sin,for the sake of showing Hi Elect how terrible a plight they were saved from.
@QuelDroma366 "then why did he only choose some of us? And how did he choose us over the others?"
That is not the question to ask. The real question is why does he choose anyone at all? We all deserve hell... God doesn't owe us anything... His sovereignty alone saves His people. We are
@QuelDroma366 "If God didn't choose us for any reason, except that He is good, then why did he only choose some of us? And how did he choose us over the others?" That is not the question to be asked. We should ask ourselves why choose anyone at all? We all rebel against him- and in our sin nature cannot choose a perfect being (Romans 3:9-12) So, in his sovereignty chose His people before the earth was even created. He is good and we do not get to question why. (Romans 9:14-24)
OF COURSE! According to Calvinism; Because of Adams Fall (Which God Ordained), God PURPOSELY creates All People DEAD in the womb, engineered TO SIN & ONLY SIN lacking ALL ability to Repent or Beg for Mercy, the VAST Majority Hated & FATED for DAMNATION outside ANY human will or exertion, "BEFORE having done anything either good or bad" in order to make known the riches of His Glory for His Vessels of Mercy which He has prepared BEFOREHAND for Glory!!
oh thank GOD!!!! i am so thankful that that verse was finally translated by Mark in a correct way! SO TRUE! God doesnt choose and pick to save some of us and leaves others for the sake of him knowing in the beginning that some wouldnt choose him!
God does not send his love through the holy spirit to everyone. When you quote these verses that say God desires all men to repentance realize it does not contradict this video God has a eternal will and a desirable will, and when you quote that verse in a free will context you are also preaching universalism which is heresy in the highest form.
@igofighter God universally OFFERS grace. Everyone has the free moral agency to respond to Him. Not everyone does. That's not universalism. Universalism is the opposite of hypercalvinism--one damns people regardless of faith, the other saves people regardless of faith.
@dougmoerhoffman and show me this in scripture... oh wait you can't. Eph 2:1-5,1john 5:20, John 15:6, eph 1:4-5, ezekiel. I can keep going The bible makes it clear that God had to make you alive before you have faith(this is regeneration). Jesus says a clear statement about salvation " you did not chose me but I choose you". Romans 3 quotes the psalms No one seeks after God. In the end the scripture as a whole should be studied without bringing your previous beliefs to it. Grow in christ child.
@igofighter You've got a problem. Whatever you believe about God, it has to be consistent with the Revealed Truth that God is justified in sending people to Hell. If He forces people to go by refusing to extend Grace to them, then He is not Good. What you need to realize is that the Free Moral Agency of man and the Divine Sovereignty of God MUST go together. You cannot overly emphasize one or the other, and you are unfortunately emphasizing the latter far too much.
@dougmoerhoffman God's revealed truth is in his word(the bible), and what you are preaching is going against what God has said. You are putting words in God's mouth and that is heresy. Begone you wolf who wears sheeps clothing, in the name of my adopted heavenly father God I rebuke for deceiving people with satan's lies. I will end the conversation here for demons are your mentors, and the lord rebukes them, repent from opposing God and trust his word and be saved.
@igofighter According to you, God made me believe what I believe. HyperCalvinism is determinism, pure and simple. It doesn't matter what you or I do, so why are you accusing me of going against Scripture (which I'm not)? In your mind, God is making me do what I'm doing
But thanks for the opposition. Jesus did promise that people would hate me for the message of the Gospel. If it weren't for the occasional threat of damnation from guys like you, I wouldn't know that I was true to Christ.
@dougmoerhoffman Mat 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 2 peter 2:1-5, and many other places in old and new testaments show God has a place of torment for the wicked. Whatever you say about God's revealed truth must be backed up with God's revealed truth(i.e. scripture
@dougmoerhoffman Grace came before the fall of man. Grace was creation in and of itself.. God didnt owe us anything. We broke His Law therefore we deserve His Judgement. For us to desire fairness without acceptence of the fact that we are sinners by nature is to assume we had something to do with creating ourselves which we didnt.. Dont Be Self Decieved
This is why there are so many false christians because they can never know this message unless it is revealed to them. You can't jus say "I am joining your club, and Hey I'm a saved christian. Nah, This club has an elected membership, and though small, they are single minded ;)
Acts 2 has both words-foreseeing and foreknowing. Me, Psalms 14, 53, and Romans 3 quoting those two Psalms by Paul to describe the sinfulness of man. That actually states God looking at the chideren of men to see if there be any who understand, who seek after God and the answer? There are none righteous no not one
ok yes God foreknew all of us, and yes God has to first draw us to Him and He loved us first and all that...but I believe the difference is that He does that for everyone but its those who choose to love Him back after the realize the truth of God that become God's people
@ceraline Well as Romans 9 explains, God will be glorified in the end. God works for his glory, to demonstrate who he is and his attributes like love, mercy, justice, ect. So in Romans 9 we are told that he has prepared vessels of glory(meaning his elect) to display his mercy and rich kindness.But he has already prepared vessels of wrath(non-elect) through whom he will display his justice and by doing so show his salvation to be as great as it really is.
Nice speech but you have faith, and you live with it. I have reality to go off of from the present and the past. I know that the nicest people die from the meanest ways. Raped and tortured etc. Not thousands of people but millions suffer daily with mental disorders, fear, anxiety, panic attacks, heart issues, cancer, aids, lukemia and on and on. But oh yes....he loves us so much that we suffer day in and day out. How loving, wow I wish I could kill my kids and show them how much I love them too.
So we were ill fated before we even came here? WTF!? What did we do? We were chosen to be here for we are sinners ( losers ). Perhaps that's why God loves us soooo much. That's why we have gang members who kill for fun, people who kill their own kids ( Casey Anthony ) killed her 2 year old. To top it off cause God has a sense of humor all the tornadoes, hurricane's, earthquakes and illnesses. Oh did I forget to mention Osama Bin Laden, Sadaam Hussein and Adolf Hitler? Sorry.
@tomgunc I don't know EXACTLY what you were taught...but all good and perfect things come from above. God cannot do any wrong or anything bad because that's who he is.
LIFE is just a big game for God, right? if God knows who is going to come to him and who is not, then its all a GAME for him, we are created just as pawns for God's game, God gets to watch Earth as his cable tv. and also so God created HELL KNOWING that most of the people he created were going to go there. SO WHAT IS THE PURPOSE FOR EVEN LIVING! peachers are full of pride, ever notice NONE of them have handicap's, all are married, so they get laid all the time, joke
@hemet92544 I'm sorry but because someone isn't a minister, they're going to hell? Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but that's what I got out of that. If life was a game for Him, then He would be moving all of the pieces not giving us the free will to choose Him or not. YES, He may know who will and who won't but we all have the free will to choose yes or no. Jesus Christ is our Savior and I pray that He will open your eyes to the truth.
@SincerelyCady The term savior means that someone is in trouble, or distress so a hero comes and snatches them to safety. They don't choose to be saved. Free will is simply another term for self will. The bible says there is NONE who seeks after God. Our will is to serve only self until God changes our heart. Also says noone comes to Jesus unless the Father first draws them to Him. Biblically God initiates the salvation process, not men. We choose Him after he chooses us. Hope it makes sense.
@primepua Thanks for replying, but I already understand. I was just trying to tell Hemet92544 that life isn't a game for Him. Apparently I got off track a bit and made my own comment sound different than I meant it.
I believe God knows EVERYTHING long before it happens.... and I believe God is constantly tugging at OUR hearts SEEKING us out and CALLING to us..... but WE must accept by our FREEWILL the invitation. Therefore I do not believe God planned our choices before we make them, we make the CHOICES, and God is the one CHOOSING us by calling out to us, and dying for us.... but we have to accept it.
@ASKBELLA1 Goodness me! What a collection of contrived nonsense!
Wouldn't you find it easier (not to say more logical) to just live your life according to your own sensible moral compass - and then just die, like the rest of us?
There is no afterlife (heaven would be hell, wouldn't it?)
Everytime the Bible mentions election it refers to election of service not salvation. It election where true babies and mentally challenged people would be destined for Hell.
Driscoll is TOTALLY leading millions astray. This "He-chose-me" Centered theology is unbiblical. Driscoll forgot to mention that John Calvin believed that Babies that were NOT baptized were PREDESTINED for HELL, He also forgot to mention that If you DIDN'T believe in Jesus, well that's because you were CHOSEN, CREATED and PREDESTINED for HELL as well. Do your homework people, abide in Christ, not in the teachings of this fellow.
Since people have kids that they know will eventually perish, they should never have kids in the first place? If we had no free choice, what love would that be?
God created Sin. God created man in such a state that man was guaranteed to sin. Therefore, god is 100% responsible for all sin. If he were to blame us for sin, then he has no honor, and is a barbaric tyrant.
see, the problem then comes with verses like mark 14:21 which say that for some, itd be better if they werent born. i wonder how pastor Mark would respond to the claim that, if the determination of whether we're saved or not comes before time and without our choice, then how can we reconcile God's giving life to a person for whom it wouldnt've been better if he/she werent born? thats like saying God created certain ppl solely destined for hell but in fact God couldve chosen not to birth them
@guidobambino you seem to be missing the point. we are all predestined to either go to heaven or to hell, and that is not because God chose our lives for us. We make our own decisions. God lays the paths out in front of us that we can choose, however, he simply knows what we will choose because God is all knowing and all powerful. In other words, God didn't create people with the intention of sending them to hell. They denied the Lord, thus leading themselves to their own demise.
@danielguitar14 but thats the point -- Mark is arguing that definition is wrong. he says instead that predestination if God lovingly choosing to save us before we could choose him...he calls it "love before time began." But on this view, God chooses to save some over others, and those that arent "elect" would have been better off not being born. so my question is -- why would God allow people to be born if they werent elect? according to mark 14:21, it wouldve been better if God didnt do that
@danielguitar14 Foreknowledge is not foreknowledge if it depends on a "choice" that has not yet been made. God cannot have perfect foreknowledge without predestining us as either his children or his foes. As for the answer to why God does this: all I can say is that, God does what pleases him and brings him glory! I admit that the sinner in me does not like the answer but Psalms 115:3 is clear as well as the book of Job on this subject. Actually the whole bible is filled with this concept.
i believe God elected some to save others through those He chose. But that doesn't mean that if you're not elected too bad, why would we have free will then? God chose some so that everyone could be reached. That's what I really believe.
@Bee92iBella i think thats the only tenable option -- that is, some hybrid form of calvinism and arminianism. maybe molinism? or maybe God elects/pursues some, whereas others come to Jesus freely. for instance, Jesus pursues Peter and Matthew specifically; however, others such as Zacharias choose to pursue Jesus. i think this is both the most logical and rational view of God as well as the most biblically sound.
I really don't know the labels and don't care. I hate these labels. We are called to be followers of Christ and no one else. Honestly though this is the only thing that clicks for me and once I realised this I've had pace of mind on this issue. The Bible is simple there is no need to dig to find the truth.
@Bee92iBella well, its not the label itself that matters, but our understanding of God. true, you can lead a Christ filled life without working out these issues, but, in all fairness, i think your passive approach towards understanding God is ultimately harmful to the collective church. speaking as one who became a Christian a short time ago, I will say that, like Peter 3:15 says, it is important to be able to give a defense to all those who ask. part of our goal as christians should be to win
(cont) people to christ, but if we cant even put together a logically coherent view of God, why should anyone pursue Christ further? the very question i asked is one that atheists pose plenty of times, and if we love them it should behoove us to want to teach them. its ok not to know an answer, but to avoid discovery of God is very much unlike Paul in Acts 17 and only furthers the idea that the Christian God isnt even logically rational -- and this does not help win unbelievers to Christ.
@Euphoriasings but what I'm asking is 'does God predetermine whether we are saved or not?' if you say that we ARE predetermined by God, then it calls into question why God would create certain individuals who are "destined" for hell, since, as the bible says with Judas, it would be better if they WERENT born. on the other hand, if we are not predetermined, then...well..some verses that seem to speak in favor of predestination must take on a different meaning
@guidobambino It's not that I say that we are predetermined by Lord, it's the truth written IN THE BIBLE and we must submit to it. The whole bible is full of election if you read it carefully, and it's not irrational at all... Now down to your question.. Is not Lord who destined people to hell.. WE by our own freedom have chosen in that way.. You cannot ask somebody who is dead in sin to believe (It is against our nature).
@guidobambino So How can you as a sinner can have a Holy nature? Is that possible to be totally changed by an internal simple decision? (consider how many of them haven't been accomplished)... We need an external help for that, That's why it is called Grace.
I strongly recommend an article written by Walter J. Chantry.. called "Myth of free will". Hope it gives some light for you... May God bless.
I really don't know the labels and don't care. I hate these labels. We are called to be followers of Christ and no one else. Honestly though this is the only thing that clicks for me and once I realised this I've had pace of mind on this issue. The Bible is simple there is no need to dig to find the truth.
@guidobambino Wow! I would like to see how you reconcile that idea with John 15:16. Jesus clearly chose all his disciples! As far as a hybrid form of Arminianism and Calvinism is concerned, what fellowship does light have with darkness?
@prettylola1 right. Jesus chose the 12, and that's the point he's making in John 15:16. you wouldnt say that Judas was saved, though, despite being one of the 12 would you? also, i dont see it as a light vs. darkness issue, since good arguments can be made for both sides. for instance, Isaiah 65:12 seems to put forth, like I suggested earlier, that God pursues us but we choose what displeases Him. its ironic that you say that though, as Calvinism shares the same perspective that Islam does..
@guidobambino No, Judas was not saved (I think scripture makes that clear since Satan was allowed to enter him). However, he was still chosen for God's purpose: if it wasn't for Judas' betrayal, there would have been no crucifixion. Just as Romans 9 says, God uses some vessels for noble purposes and some for common. Even though Judas was completely unregenerate, God used his evil for our good (just like he used Joseph's brother's evil acts and the evil acts of Pharaoh to accomplish his will).
And just for the record, this is not an attack on Mark. Though I disagree on this point of predestination, he is still my brother in Christ.
I just think we need to take a closer look at these words (election and predestination) in Scripture and study them using Scripture only without reading Calvin or Augustine or Piper to get our definitions.
This view of election shows God as being loving only toward the elect. So..Why does the Bible say that "God is not willing that ANY should perish..."?
(And just so you know, I'm not a universalist). I believe that Jesus' death was for the sins of the world and any who cry out to Him in repentance will be saved.
"but as many as recieved Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe on His name." Jn 1:12
Say I created an ignorant society with full knowledge that they would not be able to uphold the strict laws I set up yet did not explain. I knew that by letting them fail they would be faced with centuries of injustice and suffering. But I thought, "hey I can find one good person and have the people brutally sacrifice him in order to appease my anger. I also know that some will not accept this sacrifice, an punishment awaits them. Am I loving, Am I perfect?
why would christ atone for all ,if he does not want everyone to be saved.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world(not just elect) should be saved through him.18The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Christ is making Salvation available to everyone on the basis of faith.
@HallofTyrannus Now I'm not Arminian or Calvanist but something in between and agree with Wesley's idea of responsibility of the believer. On the other hand there are certain ideas of Calvin's idea of grace that are beautiful if you take away the sigma associated with it. If we are sinners by nature and enemies of God (Romans 1) how can we choose God unless he does a work first. The idea of God doesn't regenerate our hearts because we believe but so that we can believe, just food for thought.
@HallofTyrannus Romans 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honour Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. The way I understand this I was not lost as a victim but a rebel running from God.
@ryno200 : True , you are lost and so are a rebel running from God. The sinful nature predisposed you to become a rebel.But the Holy Spirit convicted you and helped you repent and put your faith in the finished work of Christ.
Romans 2 says" 14 For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, these who do not have the law are a law to themselves. 15 They show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend them, 16 on the day when God will judge the secrets of human hearts, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus." Does this sound like total depravity?
2 Thess.2:9-10
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, BECAUSE they refused to love the truth and SO BE SAVED.
HOW could they "be Saved" when Calvins Limited Atonement claims Jesus NEVER DIED for them to Begin with!!?
Isaiah1v18 4 days ago
@michaeldstender " He was FOREKNOWN before the foundation of the world but was made MANIFEST in the last times...
"Foreknown" & made Manifest" are linked in the sentence.
Isaiah1v18 5 days ago
@michaeldstender "Foreknowledge = ForeLove"
Wrong. Foreknowledge = to Know in adavance 1 Peter 1:19-20
...but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you..
Christ the Lamb to be sacrificed was FOREKNOWN, not foreloved... Mark Driscoll errs because he doesn't know the Scriptures. CALVINISM is Not christianity.
Isaiah1v18 5 days ago
This is just so tough for me to listen to. The part that Mark always leaves out is how this effects everyone else. It doesn't make sense that God only elects "a few" and the rest never stood a chance because "no one seeks God, not one." If we have no say in the matter of salvation (i'm referring to the option to say yes or no) then God predestines people to hell. God is not a respecter of persons nor has anyone sought after God, but If what Mark is saying is true then election was a dice roll.
michaeldstender 6 days ago
@MegaVenom777 " so you are partiality right"
So what do you disagree with, with what I've written?
Isaiah1v18 1 week ago
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Isaiah1v18 1 week ago
One form of Moderate Calvinism which drops the limited atonement in favor of an unlimited atonement which says that God has provided Christ's atonement for all alike, but seeing that none would believe on their own, he then elects those whom he will bring to faith in Christ. Moderate Calvinism holds to the four points of Calvinism please look up or join a theology class on the debate of Armenian and Calvinism. Theology class's are amazing!
MegaVenom777 1 week ago
@MegaVenom777
"moderate Calvinism"---lol, that's like saying partly Christian. It doesn't work. Sorry, if you're going to name yourself after an ideal of doctrines(Calvinism)--then you subscribe to them all, or you find a different name.
Either way, all 5 points stand or fall together--it's quite upsetting that many "Calvinists" don't even understand this.. if you take out the "L" in TULIP---you're automatically teaching universalism. There's a reason the "L" is there, even if it's a lie.
droptozro 4 days ago
If God chose me, and it had zero to do with me, why doesn't he choose others? Why are there some that he chooses hell for?
sevens113 1 week ago
@squishells "I'm seeking answers"
Let me help you.
These Calvinists worship a god oftheir own making who Claim He created people & Purposed in His Mind & Heart to BURNING them FOREVER "Before they were BORN or had done ANYTHING either good or bad" or had "any knowledge of Good or Evil", from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD "for His GOOD PLEASURE" to "Glorify Himself".
O How BEAUTIFUL are the feet of those Calvinists who preach the good news!
Isaiah1v18 1 week ago
@Isaiah1v18 U didn't even answer his/her question. don't you know that even James Armeinian agreed with John Calvin. people who are Moderate Calvinist fellow scripture more closely then a Armenian because even a Armenian has to agree that god is all Sovereign.
Also you are talking about Extreme Calvinism. which most Calvinist think is unorthodox, so you are partiality right but to say moderate Calvinism isn't a good theological idea then clearly you are a heretic.
MegaVenom777 1 week ago
So predestination basically = "God's intended fate". In this sermon you just gave the good examples for the team that "gets picked"... What about the millions of others in or going to Hell who didn't get picked?
I'll leave it at one question cause I'd really like a response from you as I'm seeking answers.
I agree with how awesome your interpretation is for believers... but it is so hard for me to accept doctrine saying that God has also predestined many for eternal damnation.
squishells 1 week ago
Aha! I see the beauty of election and predestination. It is that the Father won't fail us but will find every one of us lost sheep. We will not be abandoned. I get this now. But the ugly side... if not all are elect, is that some are not elect, and it seems capricious and not fair. If I am saved and elect then how can I enjoy his grace when my brothers are rejected, especially if I didn't earn it? But at least through this video now I see the beautiful side of this theology. I wonder now....
peacewalker7 1 week ago
God doesn't know the future silly
SagesOfSeraphim 1 week ago
The god of calvinism "commands" Adam & Eve to obey, but has SOVEREIGNLY DECREED for them to disobey to BURN them FOREVER, who purposed their DAMANTION in his mind & heart from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD, "BEFORE they were born or had done anything either good or bad" for "His GOOD pleasure" to "Glorify Himself", then tries to justify his deception under the illusion that they're going to hell for "Sin".
Calvinism GLORIFIES SATAN himself perverting the Scriptures, masquerating as GOD.
Isaiah1v18 2 weeks ago
@Isaiah1v18 Hey friend how's it goin? I'm seekin the Truth in Scripture but just wanna bring up a point. God is omniscient. Which means He knows everything (1 John 3:19-20, 1 Samuel 2:3, Psalm 147:5, Job 37:16). This is a Biblical truth. Now lets say God raises a man up, gives him free will to either choose Him or choose Satan. So it's the man's choice. But we know God knows all things. So why would He raise Judas and Saul up, if He knows they are not going to turn to Him and go to hell?
JogaHenryBonito 2 weeks ago
@Isaiah1v18 Also I would encourage you to read Matthew 13:24-43. The story of the weeds has been something I've been really meditating on. Jesus called the Pharisees 'Children of Satan' and those who did the Father's will as "Children of God". I'm not stepping into anything or saying anything friend since “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law"- Deuteronomy 29:29. God bless
JogaHenryBonito 2 weeks ago
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Isaiah1v18 2 weeks ago
We are stained with the original sin of Adam while we were still in our mothers womb.. before we ever commit our first sin. Before the foundation of the world was lay, everyone was 'predestined' to Heaven.. but, since the Fall of Man, everybody is now predestined to Hell. We hear the Word and the Holy Spirit speaks to our heart.. and we either yield to the Spirit and believe on Christ, receiving eternal life.. or we reject it. And it continues until one finally yields or never yields to the HS.
margovallen 2 weeks ago
(cont) If one dies without yielding to the Holy Spirit, one perishes. Christ died for ALL ..Gods Gift of Grace was offered to ALL. Even in Gods Sovereignty, He gives us Free-Will to make informed choices. He wills that NONE should perish but, many do because they chose to reject Christ. Many are called (there are MANY people in the world) few are chosen. When we turn to Christ, God chooses/elects to save us. God knows who will accept Christ but, He still makes the offer to ALL.AMEN!
margovallen 2 weeks ago
@Isaiah1v18 Of course God desires every man to spend eternity with Him; however, His eternal saving purpose must surpass His desires. You and I both know not everyone goes to heaven. God's choices are based on His sovereign purpose, not His desires.
God receives glory by showing grace and mercy on sinners. (Eph 2:2)
God is sovereign in salvation, but men are still responsible for their own sin. Salvation is from the Lord. (Jon 2:9)
jcfrenz1 2 weeks ago
@jcfrenz1 If God desires every man to spend eternity with him but his purposes are not in agreement with these desires, then you are claiming that God has desires contrary to what will glorify him. This is saying that God is unable to accomplish what he desires.
Some of you youtube Calvinists claim that whatever God desires God does and this doing what he wants and pleases defines goodness. You misuse the term 'sovereign' to mean God is a puppeteer. This isn't sovereignty.
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@jcfrenz1 I'll put it more simply what I said. You are saying that God cannot do or that it would be WRONG for him to do what he wants. If he desires all to go to heaven, but saving purposes trump these desires, then what makes it right for a being to predestine another being to go to heaven before birth? What makes these saving purposes right and God's desires wrong?
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@jcfrenz1 I'm sorry, I have to add one more thing to your view that God's purposes are at odds with his desires. In other words, your view of God is that this deity is having a Calvinistic Romans 7 experience with two natures. Who shall set him free? "22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, "
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@jcfrenz1
1 Tim. 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Romans 11:32
For God has consigned ALL to disobedience, that he may have mercy on ALL. Ez. 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of ANYONE, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live."
Isaiah1v18 2 weeks ago
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Thank you for being a man and unapologeticaly preaching correct doctrine.
MrBayerischer99 2 weeks ago
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MrBayerischer99 2 weeks ago
@Xallia621 Romans 3:10 no one is good not even one. We All deserve to go to hell, but out of God's grace and mercy some of us were chosen to spend eternity with Him.
jcfrenz1 2 weeks ago
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@jcfrenz1 "Romans 3:10 no one is good not even one. We All deserve to go to hell, but out of God's grace and mercy some of us were chosen to spend eternity with Him."
This is partiality in judgment.Lev 19:15, 35; Deut 1:17 Prov 18:5 It is not good to accept the person of the wicked, to overthrow the righteous in judgment. Prov 24:23; Deut 16:19; Job 8:3; Oh, and Gal 1:7
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
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@baaaconman I do not know of any calvinists who believe that God created sin."
Very well, lest test your consistency;
Do people choose to Sin OUTSIDE of Gods Causal Sovereign Will & Decree? Or is it, BECAUSE of Gods Causal Sovereign Will & Decree, that people then "choose" to sin?
Isaiah1v18 2 weeks ago
"I love the doctrine of election!" Of course you do. That's because you were chosen. How about all the others he's apparently "chosen" to go to Hell?
Xallia621 2 weeks ago
@baaaconman
I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. (Romans 9:11-16 NASB)
baaaconman 2 weeks ago
@baaaconman The early gnostics used that same passage to show that both sin and conversion were monergistic. This is long before Pelagius and Augustine.
Those who don't study history are condemned to repeat it.
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@adstarAPAD What kind of God does the calvinist dogma declaring?" THE GOD OF THE BIBLE! "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses,
baaaconman 2 weeks ago
@baaaconman "What kind of God does the calvinist dogma declaring?" THE GOD OF THE BIBLE!" Many disagree with you. In fact, they feel just as strong as you, but are of the persuasion that your calvinist god is nothing but the Serpent with the attributes of deity TACKED on to it. They hold that your god is really the devil warned about in Scripture. Given the fact that the devil is real, it is worth considering their position and not be so sure about your own.
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
He is mixing up God's love for His creation with the calvinist dogma. Making calvinism taste sweet to the mouth. But when it enters the inside one realizes that calvanisim declares that God created people who would never be selected. People who where created to Burn in the eternal lake of fire... What kind of God does the calvinist dogma declare?? Dwell on this.
AdstarAPAD 2 weeks ago
@AdstarAPAD one of them just finished saying that God desires that those he has created to go to hell to be with him for eternity instead of them going to hell. Now these Calvinists claim that God is forbidden to do what he wants. If his saving purposes trump his desires, then they imply that God desires what is not right. He's having a calvinist's romans 7 two natures experience. Who shall set him free?
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
@fractalfires1 Fractalfires. I think you have messed up your post to me. God is not in hell. No one says that God wants people to go to hell to be with Him. I am not sure what the rest of your post means, It is very confusing to me.
AdstarAPAD 2 weeks ago
@AdstarAPAD possible. A lot of posts have gone up, so I'm sorry if I posted anything wrong or goofed in posting.
fractalfires1 2 weeks ago
God through the Holy Spirit calls many but few are chosen. People can resist the moving of the Holy Spirit. Jesus would have all men to be saved but some men reject conviction, They hate the Love of the truth but have joy in unrighteousness. The dogma that God forces some to accept and blocks others from embracing Jesus is the toxic doctrine of calvin.
AdstarAPAD 2 weeks ago
@isaiah1v18 I do not know of any calvinists who believe that God created sin. But since I don't believe that He did I would consequently disagree with any one who does believe that God created sin.
baaaconman 3 weeks ago
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@baaaconman "So the word for evil clearly does not mean sin in the context."
Where you NOT paying attention?
According to most CALVINISTS, God created MORAL EVIL (Hebrew: Ra) & they use Isaiah 45:7 as a proof-text
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things.
Do you disagree with Reformed Theology?
Isaiah1v18 3 weeks ago
@Isaiah1v18 I fail to see why you are contradicting me on a point that you do not disagree with me on. And you quote the bible just to say that you don't believe what it says. But I checked several other versions and they said disaster calamity and sorrow. So the word for evil clearly does not mean sin in the context.
baaaconman 1 month ago
@baacon "God did not creat evil."
Really? According to most Calvinists He certainly did.
Isaiah 45:7 KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things.
Calvinists, such as WCOFTheology & 5PointBaptist, have openly declared God as the ULTIMATE CAUSE/Unmoved Mover of ALL moral Evil & SIN & have declared GOD as the one bringing SIN into Existance & then imposing this EVIL unto man for "His GOOD PLEASURE" to Glorify Himself"
Isaiah1v18 1 month ago
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Isaiah1v18 1 month ago
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It's interesting why you don't see all the so called Arminian preachers ridicule and put down the Calvinists but you see so many self proclaimed prideful "elect" Calvinists slam those who don't believe their way through their interpretation of the scriptures. The world doesn't need satan distracting them, it has Christians fighting with each other. What a sad example to my non Christian loved ones that I want to see saved. Election? Paul had a choice when he was knocked of his horse anyway
Holycannolicooking 1 month ago
@Isaiah1v8 Evil in and of itself is not a thing. Otherwise it would have had to have been created. Evil is the absence of good. Cold and darkness are not things either. Cold is the absence of heat, dark is the absence of light. God did not creat evil. As to imposing it upon people, he does not do that either. We as humans have a sin nature. Apart from the grace of God we would sin at every opportunity. Good is dependent on God.
baaaconman 1 month ago
@fractalfires1 Malachi 1:2
baaaconman 1 month ago
Jesus said he did NOT come to destroy mens lives but to save them after leaving a town of unbelievers (Lk. 9:56 NASB), Why then would Jesus Command his disciples to preach the "Gospel" to "every creature" in our modern times, by sending out a "General Calling of Repentance" according to Calvinism, to the Reprobate when Jesus NEVER died for them to Begin with?
Isaiah1v18 1 month ago
John wrote, 1 John 2:1 "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that YOU MAY NOT SIN..."
Why would John, write "so that YOU may NOT sin" when in Calvinism, SIN is FIRST SOVEREIGNLY brought into EXISTANCE by God who then IMPOSES this SIN & CAUSALLY ORDAINEDS it on men TO SIN for "His Good Pleasure" to "Glorify Himself"?
Isaiah1v18 1 month ago
@droptozro "for though the twins(Jacob and Esau) were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that Gods purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER' just as it is written 'JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."Romans 9:11. Also Calvinism does not teach that people do not have a choice. that would be nonsense. It teaches that our choice is under the sovereignty of God
baaaconman 1 month ago
9:11-13
baaaconman 1 month ago
@baaaconman "just as it is written 'JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."Romans 9:11"
Which book was Paul quoting from?
fractalfires1 1 month ago
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Calvinism/Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Theology are from the pit of Hell.....they are heresies that make God Almighty a sinner and not just a sinner but the Author of ALL sin.
Every child raped....every women beaten...every person murdered...every deceitful business deal...every cruelty man has done, was authored by God. It is a blasphemous false religion and many otherwise fine Bible teachers are promoting it today. MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, are some of them. Flee and Repent of Calvinism!!
willpower242 1 month ago
@baaaconman It's not good news in calvinism... It's real my bad news. Go ahead and preach the full truth of your view, tell people they have no choice they were chosen(most people) from eternity past to go to hell. Wicked misunderstanding of scripture... Repent!
droptozro 1 month ago
Ahhh, so we only have hope "IF" God loved us before time (8:00). Keep in mind, if you don't fall into the "loved" category (i.e. reprobate), you have NO hope.
layorugua2000 1 month ago
@sourceserker1 the reason that we preach the gospel is that God has predestined not only the end but also the means "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" (Romans 10:14, 15 NASB)
baaaconman 1 month ago
If as Calvin proclaimed salvation is secure because of God's decision to save people before they were even born, why preach the gospel, isn't an attempt to get someone to understand the gospel equivelant to helping a person meet the reqirements of born again salvation and therefore is not the security of salvation based on coming correctly to God, receiving at that point an irrevokable transformation and regeneration and not a choosing by God arbitrarily of who will go to heaven and hell?
sourceseeker1 1 month ago
@Mirewood You violate God's law. EVERYONE chooses to rebell, and run from God. We are dead in sin, and the Lord offers Jesus' atonment on the cross has your penalty being payed, if you see that and turn away from that, you do not deserve mercy, and God being the just God He is, doesn't let things go unpunished. It's a paradox, that is the glory of God.
bammc19 2 months ago
@bammc19 Read Joshua 2, just a friendly gesture. May God be with you
sheenzhonggui 1 month ago
@Mirewood It's a response to us rebelling against God. We do not seek God- no one does. (Romans 3:11) You violate Gods law throughout the day, everyday. So, yes, we do deserve hell.
bammc19 2 months ago
@Mirewood and you're a christian, yet you believe that? I would love to give you the good person test in accordance to Gods law in the ten commandments, but like me, you would fail miserably.
bammc19 2 months ago
The debate really should go as follows... Biblical vs Arminism
bammc19 2 months ago
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NAME BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE IF WE DO NOT OVERCOME (this is by the Power of God of Course but we must be a part of it because WE ARE) John 3:16 WHOSOEVER WILL Then Means NOTHING in ETERNAL SECURITY & ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED! Eternal Security Stinks from the Pits of Hell! WHOSOEVER WILL of John 3: 16 in Eternal Security IS OUT!
FormerMPSGT 2 months ago
@Mirewood Can standards vary from you to another person?
stangcobraii 2 months ago
@Mirewood What are your standards? Where do you believe you are going when you die?
stangcobraii 2 months ago
@Mirewood Have you ever told a lie? If So....then you are a liar. How many murders do you have to commit to be a murderer? Just one. If you have told even one 'small' lie, that makes you a liar before God. You may not lying is a serious sin, but God does. Are you guilty or Innocent?
stangcobraii 2 months ago
In Calvinism, God Purposely Decreeds for Man to come into Existance DEAD, INVOLUNTARILY created to love SIN from the moment of conception, having NO ABILITY to repent or beg for mercy, the vast majority FATED for DAMNATION, PREDESTINED to burn forever, CHOSEN for Eternal Punishment, "Before having done anything either good or bad" for "His good pleasure" to "Glorify Himself".
"Its a BEAUTIFUL thing really" -bammc19
Really? Enlighten me.
Isaiah1v18 2 months ago
@bammc19 "its a beautiful thing... The question is why does God choose anyone at all? We all deserve hell..."
Why do people "deserve hell" for being INVOLUNTARILY created GUILTY DEAD SINNERS, TOTALLY DEPRAVED babies in the WOMB "BEFORE having done ANYTHING either good or bad" lacking ALL ability to repent orbeg for mercy?
Isaiah1v18 2 months ago
@Mirewood You may exist because of your parents action, but they didn't design you. I don't know what or who you believe designed us. Perhaps you believe that we are just here by chance and that when you die, you cease to exist. If we are here by chance than there is no real ultimate purpose in life. I'm thankful I live for a reason.
stangcobraii 2 months ago
@Mirewood I have done nothing to deserve life, it's all God's grace. There is a difference between meeting you and meeting God, God created me and gave me life he has every right to do what He wants with me. Punishment is a response to sin God created us to love Him and our neighbor with our heart, mind and soul. If we lack, it is a sin. By Jesus' blood we are cleaned from sin. Hell is simply a place where God is not. If you're not with God in this life, you wont be with Him in the next life.
stangcobraii 2 months ago
@Mirewood Then the questions are: What have you done to deserve God sparing you from Hell? and Why did Jesus die? Why would God send His only Son to suffer and die for your sins? We all deserve hell for our sins, BUT Jesus faced God's wrath of sin for us :) That is the Gospel!
stangcobraii 2 months ago
God wants use all and that God will use us all if we get out of the way. But predestination is kinda weird for me to accept, God is outside of time and knows everything therefore knows what we will do but we don't know and thus can go either way to heaven or Hell. So @GazawayJD I agree with you
cogi09 2 months ago
The one I disagree with Driscoll on. Literally, the only thing. It implies that God picks his favorites, and that God chooses only certain people. That God would ever choose one sinner over another is contradicting to the nature of God, as God hates all sin, and therefore all sinners. I personally believe that God knows who will pick him, but that he specifically chose them? I think there are pre-elect, such as the prophets and Jesus, who were sent with a mission.
GazawayJD 2 months ago
God does choose, we cannot choose Him. We are incapable, in our sin nature to do so. (Romans 3:11) Its a beautiful thing when you think about it- the question is not "why did God not choose certain people" The question is why does God choose anyone at all? We all deserve hell... but God in his sovereignty reaches down and grabs you- Nothing you did to deserve eternal life with him completely out of his mercy. God does love His children more than those who are not. (1 Peter 1:2)
bammc19 2 months ago
@bammc19 Read Romans 3:20. It implies that before we were saved, we were unaware of our sin because it is in our nature. However through "the law", in other words Jesus and his teachings, we become conscious of our sin. The Old Testament reference by Paul in verse 11 speaks of those who rejected the laws of God, and therefore were not able to pursue God.
I totally agree that we all deserve hell, and once we are accepted into his Kingdom through Christ, we are His children, whom he favors.
GazawayJD 2 months ago
If God didn't choose us for any reason, except that He is good, then why did he only choose some of us? And how did he choose us over the others? Also, why does Paul try to persuade people to follow God, when they have no choice in the matter?
QuelDroma366 3 months ago
@QuelDroma366 Your looking at it from a point of view that who ever isn't Christian in the moment is condemned. God uses people to reach the elect who are in the world and don't know him but God knows the beginning and end of everything in this world so he knows that his elect will be reached before the end.
gilbert4321 3 months ago
@gilbert4321 By that still doesn't solve the problem. He must have some way of deciding who is elect and who isn't.
QuelDroma366 3 months ago
@QuelDroma366 We don't decide... God does. We share to everyone and the elect will have the heart to listen.
gilbert4321 3 months ago
@gilbert4321 amen
bammc19 2 months ago
@QuelDroma366 He chose Christians in accordance with the pleasure of His will. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[b] predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.
He also chose to pass over others to show His Wrath toward sin,for the sake of showing Hi Elect how terrible a plight they were saved from.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
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@QuelDroma366 "then why did he only choose some of us? And how did he choose us over the others?"
That is not the question to ask. The real question is why does he choose anyone at all? We all deserve hell... God doesn't owe us anything... His sovereignty alone saves His people. We are
bammc19 2 months ago
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@QuelDroma366 "If God didn't choose us for any reason, except that He is good, then why did he only choose some of us? And how did he choose us over the others?" That is not the question to be asked. We should ask ourselves why choose anyone at all? We all rebel against him- and in our sin nature cannot choose a perfect being (Romans 3:9-12) So, in his sovereignty chose His people before the earth was even created. He is good and we do not get to question why. (Romans 9:14-24)
bammc19 2 months ago
!AWESOME WORD!
drjustincyr 4 months ago
@igofighter "God's revealed truth is in his word(the bible)"
It sure is, but God doesn't CONTRADICT Himself either as your Reformed Gnostic-centered, fatalistic teachings indicate. For example:
Do people choose to Sin OUTSIDE of Gods Sovereign Will & Decree? Or is it, BECAUSE of Gods Sovereign Will & Decree, that people then "choose" to sin?
You Calvinists pick the latter, making God the Author/Creator/Orchastrator/Prime Mover/Primary Cause/Ultimate Cause & Father of ALL MORAL EVIL
apollos6640 5 months ago 2
"He knew that you would Sin" -Driscoll
OF COURSE! According to Calvinism; Because of Adams Fall (Which God Ordained), God PURPOSELY creates All People DEAD in the womb, engineered TO SIN & ONLY SIN lacking ALL ability to Repent or Beg for Mercy, the VAST Majority Hated & FATED for DAMNATION outside ANY human will or exertion, "BEFORE having done anything either good or bad" in order to make known the riches of His Glory for His Vessels of Mercy which He has prepared BEFOREHAND for Glory!!
apollos6640 6 months ago
oh thank GOD!!!! i am so thankful that that verse was finally translated by Mark in a correct way! SO TRUE! God doesnt choose and pick to save some of us and leaves others for the sake of him knowing in the beginning that some wouldnt choose him!
annhalaseh 6 months ago
God does not send his love through the holy spirit to everyone. When you quote these verses that say God desires all men to repentance realize it does not contradict this video God has a eternal will and a desirable will, and when you quote that verse in a free will context you are also preaching universalism which is heresy in the highest form.
igofighter 6 months ago
@igofighter God universally OFFERS grace. Everyone has the free moral agency to respond to Him. Not everyone does. That's not universalism. Universalism is the opposite of hypercalvinism--one damns people regardless of faith, the other saves people regardless of faith.
dougmoerhoffman 5 months ago 2
@dougmoerhoffman and show me this in scripture... oh wait you can't. Eph 2:1-5,1john 5:20, John 15:6, eph 1:4-5, ezekiel. I can keep going The bible makes it clear that God had to make you alive before you have faith(this is regeneration). Jesus says a clear statement about salvation " you did not chose me but I choose you". Romans 3 quotes the psalms No one seeks after God. In the end the scripture as a whole should be studied without bringing your previous beliefs to it. Grow in christ child.
igofighter 5 months ago
@igofighter You've got a problem. Whatever you believe about God, it has to be consistent with the Revealed Truth that God is justified in sending people to Hell. If He forces people to go by refusing to extend Grace to them, then He is not Good. What you need to realize is that the Free Moral Agency of man and the Divine Sovereignty of God MUST go together. You cannot overly emphasize one or the other, and you are unfortunately emphasizing the latter far too much.
Do not be deceived.
dougmoerhoffman 5 months ago
@dougmoerhoffman God's revealed truth is in his word(the bible), and what you are preaching is going against what God has said. You are putting words in God's mouth and that is heresy. Begone you wolf who wears sheeps clothing, in the name of my adopted heavenly father God I rebuke for deceiving people with satan's lies. I will end the conversation here for demons are your mentors, and the lord rebukes them, repent from opposing God and trust his word and be saved.
igofighter 5 months ago
@igofighter According to you, God made me believe what I believe. HyperCalvinism is determinism, pure and simple. It doesn't matter what you or I do, so why are you accusing me of going against Scripture (which I'm not)? In your mind, God is making me do what I'm doing
But thanks for the opposition. Jesus did promise that people would hate me for the message of the Gospel. If it weren't for the occasional threat of damnation from guys like you, I wouldn't know that I was true to Christ.
Thanks
dougmoerhoffman 5 months ago
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igofighter 5 months ago
@dougmoerhoffman Mat 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 2 peter 2:1-5, and many other places in old and new testaments show God has a place of torment for the wicked. Whatever you say about God's revealed truth must be backed up with God's revealed truth(i.e. scripture
igofighter 5 months ago
@dougmoerhoffman Grace came before the fall of man. Grace was creation in and of itself.. God didnt owe us anything. We broke His Law therefore we deserve His Judgement. For us to desire fairness without acceptence of the fact that we are sinners by nature is to assume we had something to do with creating ourselves which we didnt.. Dont Be Self Decieved
JLITE08 4 months ago
"God desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:4.
Not all "kinds" of people or "classes" of people or "categories" of people, but ALL people. The original Greek is crystal clear.
I prefer not to add to the Word of God, as some people foolishly do.
The1066Al 6 months ago
This is why there are so many false christians because they can never know this message unless it is revealed to them. You can't jus say "I am joining your club, and Hey I'm a saved christian. Nah, This club has an elected membership, and though small, they are single minded ;)
MrVic1954 7 months ago
Acts 2 has both words-foreseeing and foreknowing. Me, Psalms 14, 53, and Romans 3 quoting those two Psalms by Paul to describe the sinfulness of man. That actually states God looking at the chideren of men to see if there be any who understand, who seek after God and the answer? There are none righteous no not one
daveme7 7 months ago
ok yes God foreknew all of us, and yes God has to first draw us to Him and He loved us first and all that...but I believe the difference is that He does that for everyone but its those who choose to love Him back after the realize the truth of God that become God's people
bucwildwr8 8 months ago
Why God doesn't chose everybody if it is not His will for people to perish?
ceraline 8 months ago
@ceraline
i think god actually does, but i think we dont because we dont like the other guy
niinja2 8 months ago
@ceraline Well as Romans 9 explains, God will be glorified in the end. God works for his glory, to demonstrate who he is and his attributes like love, mercy, justice, ect. So in Romans 9 we are told that he has prepared vessels of glory(meaning his elect) to display his mercy and rich kindness.But he has already prepared vessels of wrath(non-elect) through whom he will display his justice and by doing so show his salvation to be as great as it really is.
GodLovesUs100 8 months ago
Nice speech but you have faith, and you live with it. I have reality to go off of from the present and the past. I know that the nicest people die from the meanest ways. Raped and tortured etc. Not thousands of people but millions suffer daily with mental disorders, fear, anxiety, panic attacks, heart issues, cancer, aids, lukemia and on and on. But oh yes....he loves us so much that we suffer day in and day out. How loving, wow I wish I could kill my kids and show them how much I love them too.
tomgunc 9 months ago
So we were ill fated before we even came here? WTF!? What did we do? We were chosen to be here for we are sinners ( losers ). Perhaps that's why God loves us soooo much. That's why we have gang members who kill for fun, people who kill their own kids ( Casey Anthony ) killed her 2 year old. To top it off cause God has a sense of humor all the tornadoes, hurricane's, earthquakes and illnesses. Oh did I forget to mention Osama Bin Laden, Sadaam Hussein and Adolf Hitler? Sorry.
tomgunc 9 months ago
@tomgunc I don't know EXACTLY what you were taught...but all good and perfect things come from above. God cannot do any wrong or anything bad because that's who he is.
SincerelyCady 9 months ago
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if god knew i was going to sin, then i basically had no choice but to sin.
why am i guilty for that ?
He didnt make us sin but he made us knowing that we would sin....
how the fuck is that not making us sin.... why the hell didnt he made us so we dont sin.
niinja2 9 months ago
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niinja2 9 months ago
carm. org/questions/about-god/did-god-create-sin
calenfretts. com/2011/03/28/thoughts-on-omniscience-and-determinism-vs-free-will/
Frettsy 9 months ago
Take it easy, life is just a ride, and god is running the show :)
Snabelfaen 10 months ago
PS, since you never see Handicap people are ministers, this means that God created handicap people to send them to Hell.
hemet92544 10 months ago
LIFE is just a big game for God, right? if God knows who is going to come to him and who is not, then its all a GAME for him, we are created just as pawns for God's game, God gets to watch Earth as his cable tv. and also so God created HELL KNOWING that most of the people he created were going to go there. SO WHAT IS THE PURPOSE FOR EVEN LIVING! peachers are full of pride, ever notice NONE of them have handicap's, all are married, so they get laid all the time, joke
hemet92544 10 months ago
@hemet92544 I am completely confused by your comments, please elaborate.
jonbell78 9 months ago
@hemet92544 I'm sorry but because someone isn't a minister, they're going to hell? Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but that's what I got out of that. If life was a game for Him, then He would be moving all of the pieces not giving us the free will to choose Him or not. YES, He may know who will and who won't but we all have the free will to choose yes or no. Jesus Christ is our Savior and I pray that He will open your eyes to the truth.
SincerelyCady 9 months ago
@SincerelyCady The term savior means that someone is in trouble, or distress so a hero comes and snatches them to safety. They don't choose to be saved. Free will is simply another term for self will. The bible says there is NONE who seeks after God. Our will is to serve only self until God changes our heart. Also says noone comes to Jesus unless the Father first draws them to Him. Biblically God initiates the salvation process, not men. We choose Him after he chooses us. Hope it makes sense.
primepua 8 months ago
@primepua Thanks for replying, but I already understand. I was just trying to tell Hemet92544 that life isn't a game for Him. Apparently I got off track a bit and made my own comment sound different than I meant it.
SincerelyCady 8 months ago
And those of us who weren't picked?
Mojosbigstick 10 months ago
I believe God knows EVERYTHING long before it happens.... and I believe God is constantly tugging at OUR hearts SEEKING us out and CALLING to us..... but WE must accept by our FREEWILL the invitation. Therefore I do not believe God planned our choices before we make them, we make the CHOICES, and God is the one CHOOSING us by calling out to us, and dying for us.... but we have to accept it.
ASKBELLA1 10 months ago
@ASKBELLA1 Goodness me! What a collection of contrived nonsense!
Wouldn't you find it easier (not to say more logical) to just live your life according to your own sensible moral compass - and then just die, like the rest of us?
There is no afterlife (heaven would be hell, wouldn't it?)
Peace go with you.
StrumstickJoe 10 months ago
You really messed up on this one, Driscoll. Read Romans 9 and don't you dare try to weasel out of the matter of God's sovereignty.
Sephiroth1984 10 months ago
@Sephiroth1984 - I'm confused. Romans 9 is probably the strongest case of election and predestination that there is.
Secondly, there is no need to be disrespectful.
falleneutychus 10 months ago
@falleneutychus
Yeah, I think I stand corrected on all counts here. I got several minutes into this and didn't realize where Mark was going into this thing.
Sephiroth1984 10 months ago
Everytime the Bible mentions election it refers to election of service not salvation. It election where true babies and mentally challenged people would be destined for Hell.
TheCumberlands34 11 months ago
Driscoll is TOTALLY leading millions astray. This "He-chose-me" Centered theology is unbiblical. Driscoll forgot to mention that John Calvin believed that Babies that were NOT baptized were PREDESTINED for HELL, He also forgot to mention that If you DIDN'T believe in Jesus, well that's because you were CHOSEN, CREATED and PREDESTINED for HELL as well. Do your homework people, abide in Christ, not in the teachings of this fellow.
apollos6640 11 months ago
@apollos6640 If all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, how then are babies innocent from sin?
And if none is good, and we are evil in our flesh without the Holy Spirit before coming to Christ, how do we accept Christ despite our wickedness?
RevoTubeMinistries 10 months ago
@apollos6640 Also, can you prove with your Bible that God choosing people is unBiblical?
RevoTubeMinistries 10 months ago
I listen and listen - but it still doesn't make sense.
Mojosbigstick 11 months ago
Since people have kids that they know will eventually perish, they should never have kids in the first place? If we had no free choice, what love would that be?
14mercs 11 months ago 2
Gibberish.
God created Sin. God created man in such a state that man was guaranteed to sin. Therefore, god is 100% responsible for all sin. If he were to blame us for sin, then he has no honor, and is a barbaric tyrant.
brajamtho757 11 months ago
see, the problem then comes with verses like mark 14:21 which say that for some, itd be better if they werent born. i wonder how pastor Mark would respond to the claim that, if the determination of whether we're saved or not comes before time and without our choice, then how can we reconcile God's giving life to a person for whom it wouldnt've been better if he/she werent born? thats like saying God created certain ppl solely destined for hell but in fact God couldve chosen not to birth them
guidobambino 1 year ago
@guidobambino you seem to be missing the point. we are all predestined to either go to heaven or to hell, and that is not because God chose our lives for us. We make our own decisions. God lays the paths out in front of us that we can choose, however, he simply knows what we will choose because God is all knowing and all powerful. In other words, God didn't create people with the intention of sending them to hell. They denied the Lord, thus leading themselves to their own demise.
danielguitar14 1 year ago
@danielguitar14 but thats the point -- Mark is arguing that definition is wrong. he says instead that predestination if God lovingly choosing to save us before we could choose him...he calls it "love before time began." But on this view, God chooses to save some over others, and those that arent "elect" would have been better off not being born. so my question is -- why would God allow people to be born if they werent elect? according to mark 14:21, it wouldve been better if God didnt do that
guidobambino 1 year ago
@danielguitar14 Foreknowledge is not foreknowledge if it depends on a "choice" that has not yet been made. God cannot have perfect foreknowledge without predestining us as either his children or his foes. As for the answer to why God does this: all I can say is that, God does what pleases him and brings him glory! I admit that the sinner in me does not like the answer but Psalms 115:3 is clear as well as the book of Job on this subject. Actually the whole bible is filled with this concept.
prettylola1 11 months ago
@guidobambino
i believe God elected some to save others through those He chose. But that doesn't mean that if you're not elected too bad, why would we have free will then? God chose some so that everyone could be reached. That's what I really believe.
Bee92iBella 11 months ago 2
@Bee92iBella i think thats the only tenable option -- that is, some hybrid form of calvinism and arminianism. maybe molinism? or maybe God elects/pursues some, whereas others come to Jesus freely. for instance, Jesus pursues Peter and Matthew specifically; however, others such as Zacharias choose to pursue Jesus. i think this is both the most logical and rational view of God as well as the most biblically sound.
guidobambino 11 months ago
@guidobambino
I really don't know the labels and don't care. I hate these labels. We are called to be followers of Christ and no one else. Honestly though this is the only thing that clicks for me and once I realised this I've had pace of mind on this issue. The Bible is simple there is no need to dig to find the truth.
Bee92iBella 11 months ago
@Bee92iBella well, its not the label itself that matters, but our understanding of God. true, you can lead a Christ filled life without working out these issues, but, in all fairness, i think your passive approach towards understanding God is ultimately harmful to the collective church. speaking as one who became a Christian a short time ago, I will say that, like Peter 3:15 says, it is important to be able to give a defense to all those who ask. part of our goal as christians should be to win
guidobambino 11 months ago
(cont) people to christ, but if we cant even put together a logically coherent view of God, why should anyone pursue Christ further? the very question i asked is one that atheists pose plenty of times, and if we love them it should behoove us to want to teach them. its ok not to know an answer, but to avoid discovery of God is very much unlike Paul in Acts 17 and only furthers the idea that the Christian God isnt even logically rational -- and this does not help win unbelievers to Christ.
guidobambino 11 months ago
@guidobambino It's the Holy spirit who do drag unbelievers to Christ. Not our help nor even our reason...
Euphoriasings 11 months ago
@Euphoriasings but what I'm asking is 'does God predetermine whether we are saved or not?' if you say that we ARE predetermined by God, then it calls into question why God would create certain individuals who are "destined" for hell, since, as the bible says with Judas, it would be better if they WERENT born. on the other hand, if we are not predetermined, then...well..some verses that seem to speak in favor of predestination must take on a different meaning
guidobambino 11 months ago
@guidobambino It's not that I say that we are predetermined by Lord, it's the truth written IN THE BIBLE and we must submit to it. The whole bible is full of election if you read it carefully, and it's not irrational at all... Now down to your question.. Is not Lord who destined people to hell.. WE by our own freedom have chosen in that way.. You cannot ask somebody who is dead in sin to believe (It is against our nature).
Euphoriasings 11 months ago
@guidobambino So How can you as a sinner can have a Holy nature? Is that possible to be totally changed by an internal simple decision? (consider how many of them haven't been accomplished)... We need an external help for that, That's why it is called Grace.
I strongly recommend an article written by Walter J. Chantry.. called "Myth of free will". Hope it gives some light for you... May God bless.
Euphoriasings 11 months ago
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@guidobambino
I really don't know the labels and don't care. I hate these labels. We are called to be followers of Christ and no one else. Honestly though this is the only thing that clicks for me and once I realised this I've had pace of mind on this issue. The Bible is simple there is no need to dig to find the truth.
Bee92iBella 11 months ago
@guidobambino Wow! I would like to see how you reconcile that idea with John 15:16. Jesus clearly chose all his disciples! As far as a hybrid form of Arminianism and Calvinism is concerned, what fellowship does light have with darkness?
prettylola1 11 months ago
@prettylola1 right. Jesus chose the 12, and that's the point he's making in John 15:16. you wouldnt say that Judas was saved, though, despite being one of the 12 would you? also, i dont see it as a light vs. darkness issue, since good arguments can be made for both sides. for instance, Isaiah 65:12 seems to put forth, like I suggested earlier, that God pursues us but we choose what displeases Him. its ironic that you say that though, as Calvinism shares the same perspective that Islam does..
guidobambino 10 months ago
@guidobambino No, Judas was not saved (I think scripture makes that clear since Satan was allowed to enter him). However, he was still chosen for God's purpose: if it wasn't for Judas' betrayal, there would have been no crucifixion. Just as Romans 9 says, God uses some vessels for noble purposes and some for common. Even though Judas was completely unregenerate, God used his evil for our good (just like he used Joseph's brother's evil acts and the evil acts of Pharaoh to accomplish his will).
prettylola1 10 months ago
@ryno200
I don't think I understand your question?...
childofGod12100 1 year ago
And just for the record, this is not an attack on Mark. Though I disagree on this point of predestination, he is still my brother in Christ.
I just think we need to take a closer look at these words (election and predestination) in Scripture and study them using Scripture only without reading Calvin or Augustine or Piper to get our definitions.
God bless
childofGod12100 1 year ago
@childofGod12100 so you're saying that wisdom is born with you and will die with you?
ryno200 1 year ago
This view of election shows God as being loving only toward the elect. So..Why does the Bible say that "God is not willing that ANY should perish..."?
(And just so you know, I'm not a universalist). I believe that Jesus' death was for the sins of the world and any who cry out to Him in repentance will be saved.
"but as many as recieved Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe on His name." Jn 1:12
childofGod12100 1 year ago
Say I created an ignorant society with full knowledge that they would not be able to uphold the strict laws I set up yet did not explain. I knew that by letting them fail they would be faced with centuries of injustice and suffering. But I thought, "hey I can find one good person and have the people brutally sacrifice him in order to appease my anger. I also know that some will not accept this sacrifice, an punishment awaits them. Am I loving, Am I perfect?
NightHawkBomber001 1 year ago
So what kind of evil would create someone to be damned to hell? Some love....
Let me ask you this.....why bother praying if everything is predestined? This is such crap.
ProofPleez 1 year ago
and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.1John 2:2
So John clearly explains , sacrifice of Christ is made for the whole world. How can you deny God's word?
HallofTyrannus 1 year ago
why would christ atone for all ,if he does not want everyone to be saved.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world(not just elect) should be saved through him.18The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Christ is making Salvation available to everyone on the basis of faith.
HallofTyrannus 1 year ago
@HallofTyrannus Now I'm not Arminian or Calvanist but something in between and agree with Wesley's idea of responsibility of the believer. On the other hand there are certain ideas of Calvin's idea of grace that are beautiful if you take away the sigma associated with it. If we are sinners by nature and enemies of God (Romans 1) how can we choose God unless he does a work first. The idea of God doesn't regenerate our hearts because we believe but so that we can believe, just food for thought.
ryno200 1 year ago
@ryno200 :1. what does romans 1 say?Can u quote the scripture and explain.
HallofTyrannus 1 year ago
@HallofTyrannus Romans 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honour Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. The way I understand this I was not lost as a victim but a rebel running from God.
ryno200 1 year ago
@ryno200 : True , you are lost and so are a rebel running from God. The sinful nature predisposed you to become a rebel.But the Holy Spirit convicted you and helped you repent and put your faith in the finished work of Christ.
HallofTyrannus 1 year ago
Romans 2 says" 14 For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, these who do not have the law are a law to themselves. 15 They show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend them, 16 on the day when God will judge the secrets of human hearts, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus." Does this sound like total depravity?
HallofTyrannus 1 year ago