Cassius Clay vs Archie Moore - November 15, 1962

[CaptnElmo66]

All I can see is an aged great fighter against an upcoming very skilled young opponent. Just like all the others...

[B04Jordan]

this is how ali woudla have beaten rocky, marcianos head movement was no better or worse than moores, even though archie was old here marciano did not exactly get him whilst he was young either

[gjc82071]

@B04Jordan I don't know if Ali would have beat the Rock or not. I don't think the Rock hit much (if @ all) harder than Frazier. who also had great head movement. So, IMO, Ali "probably" would have TKO'ed the Rock, maybe by cuts. But until they get in the ring you just never know. You really can't predict fight outcomes based on boxers who fought the same boxers. Look at Hearns/Hagler/Duran/Leonard, or, Ali/Foreman/Norton/Frazier. In the end, "styles" & not boxers, make fights.

[MrGmfs]

i thought he was 43..

[Proverbs1533]

Frank Sinatra told me Archie was 137 years old when he fought Clay

[michaelyouth]

@Proverbs1533 Sinatra was a hypocrite bigot.. Meaningless person.

[Proverbs1533]

@michaelyouth Go watch the barbershop scene from "Coming to America" and you'll get the joke. Why would you go to the trouble of flapping your fingers on a keyboard about Frankie in a reply on a fight vid is beyond me

[michaelyouth]

@Proverbs1533 Why you are replying on a fight vid, with a barbershop scene is beyond me.. Sinatra didn't like Ali that much, he always found excuses to demonize Ali. He didn't like his involvement with the Nation of Islam, back in those days.

[Proverbs1533]

@michaelyouth Dude because most people have seen it and it's frickin hilarious. The joke is actually about how Joe Louis was so old when he fought Rocky Marciano. I was just cracking on Archie's age when he fought Clay. That's all. I keep opening my comment box to reply to the culturally retarded

[michaelyouth]

@Proverbs1533 Well sorry I didn't watch an American (gass) movie, as I'm (thank God ) no American. Anyways, I see what you mean know. Nonetheless Sinatra still is a bigot lol

[Proverbs1533]

@michaelyouth Yeah...we're glad you're not an American too man.

[Drovki]

Tyson used the Archie Moore style fighting.

[cassidy323]

@Drovki uh no he didnt his style is most imitated by joe frazier, mike tyson had a "peek-a-boo" fighting style similar to floyd patterson because he was trained by floyd pattersons former trainer cus' d aamto

[Drovki]

@cassidy323 looks like tyson :)

thanks for info

[capablemachine]

@Drovki Similar dimensions but Tyson never used a cross armed defence.

[crowley0312]

Man, Archie is ancient here. To think he had one more fight (which he won) afterward before hanging up the gloves for good.

He may have lost, but as a wise man once said, "In great attempts, it is glorious even to fail."

Ageless Archie will always be sitting comformtably in the all-time top 10 pound for pound.

[jintoor]

Ageless archie moore the only fighter to fight rocky and ali,archie was past his prime when fighting ali and rocky and was naturally light heavywirght,rocky said archie was the toughest opponent he had ever faced,archie was not at his best when fighting ali and rocky.

[sugarlanskee8]

The Daniels farce followed the Logan farce. Thankfully, we can still see Billy's manager in a state of rage because the cut wasn't that bad and Billy had the fight won in a rational universe.

[jonbashni]

@expressivechild Marciano can beat anybody he is the best Marciano would beat Ali easily but there is no answer to this as its not happened but in my opinion Marciano would have always been unbeatable.

[jason60152]

@jonbashni Tyson would beat Marciano.

[rbrtdornel]

¡Qué increíble! De Ali no voy a descubrir nada, y decir que era un genio es poco... pero extraordinario Moore, ¡¡se enfrentó con 45 años al mejor pesos pesado de la historia!! Un verdadero homenaje a dos gigantes de la historia del deporte de los puños.

[ridemooses]

This announcer sounds like the Boom goes the Dynamite guy.

[fischparov]

It says alot about moore, ( the guy has the most KOs in the sport 130+) meaning he knew how to knock guys out. Moore was an altime great!! he fought rocky and is generally acknoledged as being past his prime.he fought ali at maybe 49 depending on what year he was born.1913 or 1916 How tough was Archie moore? Probably a serious SOB, tough as they came.

[veksink]

Archie Moore got that crazy old school style...

[FSMNoodlyAppendage]

HOLY FUCK. Archie's record @ 7:50.

[MrLukedanger]

the things on archies stomach are post op scars from stumach alcers.

[johnwtanneriv]

two notes:

1) 191 wasn't "much heavier" than archie's fighting weight at this point...it was actually the lightest he had been in 5 fights

2) what is so frickin amazing about moore is that he had a draw with willie pastrano just a few months before this...and was on a six fight winning streak heading into that. while clearly he had declined, i think he had possibly the greatest post-40 career ever

[vladiator100]

The description says Moore was 49, wasn't he in fact 47? He had faced Marciano 6 years earlier as a 41 year old so wouldn't he be 47 here?

[MrPindali]

@vladiator100 it actually says he is 43

[vladiator100]

@MrPindali It says between 49 and 52. But he can't be that old. The oldest he could have been is 47.

[MrLukedanger]

@vladiator100 says he's 43

[Sexiiimamita180]

@vladiator100 nobody knows his real age if was found that most likely he was born in 1913 not 1916.. so he was 44 when he fought marciano and 49 here

[Lava1964]

@Sexiiimamita180 A boxing researcher found Archie's name in the 1920 St. Louis census. He was listed as a three-year old on Census Day in 1920. Archie's birthday was in December, so he was born in December 1916. He would have been nearly 45 here.

[TheMRJabyouintheFace]

Moore used to be his trainer

[taekler]

Okey, enough is enough somebody tell me WTH IS THAT THING ON ARCHIE'S STOMACH ???

[MrBumboclart]

Damn, Liston was just over 6'0" but he was so BIG! One of the naturally biggest framed men I've ever seen, just a beast.

[TheEnlightened77]

Archie Moore like Joe Louis was wrong on so many predictions that if you were to bet against their selection, you are more likely to win a bet. As for Marciano, he was floored by age old Archie who was really a light heavyweight. Fact is, Marciano would struggle to be Ali's sparring partner. Moreover, he would NEVER have lost to a white fighter and you can take that to the bank.

[JxNeeley]

Archie Moore said himself that Marciano wouldn't have been able to beat Ali

[lazur1]

This was NOT "Archie Moore's last fight". Granted, his next, (and actual last), opponent wasn't much of a boxer, but Archie's -truly- last fight was a WIN.

[lazur1]

191 was NOT: "...much heavier than the normal weigh that Archie fights at." He weighed 191, or -more-, (as much as 206.5 a few times), for *27* fights, and just a couple of pounds less for a dozen more.

[lazur1]

Moore was 45, 1 month short of 46, not 43. He turned pro in 1935, not 1936. At this time, he had ko'd 130 opponents, not 106.

[biozamadotcom]

@lazur1 Wow, amazing record. He's fighting here at 46. geez

[onlyjoetee]

Archie Moore was fantastic,knocked out more muthafuckers than anyone in history EVER!amazing he even got this fight.He was never really a heavyweight...

[nwsea97]

archi was like 42 when he fought this. im reading the book!

[truebeliever786]

@nwsea97

Wasn't he 48/49?

[lazur1]

@nwsea97 45, almost 46

[MrBumboclart]

Jeez Sonny was a huge guy, he was barely over 6'0 but his posture and muscles made him look like a giant. He could beat you in a strong man contest - then he'd kick your ass.

[Sundin456]

I love how Ali and Liston were nice to eachother when they shook hands, but when they were about to fight, Ali started to trash the shit out of him. Calling him a " big ugly bear"

[MrBumboclart]

@Sundin456 remind you of a certain joe frazier? while ali was in exile joe campaigned for ali's license and gave muhammad money when he needed it. as soon as ali got his title back and the frazier fight was arranged he started taunting and ridiculing joe.

[expressivechild]

Even if I am convinced on Walcott's but then again let's face it, even if these fighters are best at their peaks, they are obviously not as tough and not as agile etc at that time already. Like I said, I wouldn't take away anything from Marciano but then again he wouldn't be known as the only undefeated heavyweight in history today if some strings were not pulled for him. And moreover, the fact that he is overly hyped and promoted makes him overrated. I don't think he'd be in my top ten list...

[onlyjoetee]

@expressivechild If marciano is not in your top ten list,then throw your list away.Whatever strings are pulled or not.When you walk in that ring,its just you and him!!!!!ANYBODY would have had problems with the Rock,ANYBODY!!

[expressivechild]

@onlyjoetee - I have no problems with people rating Marciano No. 1. So why should people like you be bothered when I don't rate Marciano as Top ten? Even Monte Cox don't have Marciano in top ten. You want to question his rating? And the way I see it, I wouldn't waste my time with people who are gonna overreact to every comment that is in disagreement with their own. Continue making a joke out of yourself.. I won't be bothered to read your next comment, so continue rambling to yourself. Peace.

[onlyjoetee]

@expressivechild i dont know about #1.but he's definitely in any top ten.This man ruled an entire era and beat everybody in "his" era.If thats not enough to rank him top 10 then what is?on his day,he would be a handful for any fucking body including Ali who admitted this himself!always give credit where its due.Peace..

[onlyjoetee]

@expressivechild how many fighters in 150 yrs of boxing,have had their very own "era"??thats no small feat man!!

[expressivechild]

@bangitslo - I agree with you. He is a good fighter, but his prime was highly untested because there were no competition left other than a faded Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott, Joe Louis. Marciano is overrated, the world of boxing wanted to make and maintain him as the great white hope. He had heart, great stamina, power and amazing resistance but still not nearly good enough to stand up against any of those four in their primes. He would not be able to touch Ali realistically.

[OropherThranduil]

@expressivechild

Ali himself said from all the past champions The Brockton Blockbuster would have given him the hardest fight, Frazier said only joe louis was better than marciano, and that marciano and louis both could defeat ali.

[expressivechild]

@OropherThranduil - Louis maybe. Not Marciano in spite of what Ali said. Because it's pretty obvious Marciano would be outboxed... Frazier wasn't just a brute. He was a honey badger in the ring! And he had skills... Marciano's swinging like crazy style would be ineffective against Ali's footwork.

[OropherThranduil]

@expressivechild

Okay, so i should take your opinion over alis?

[expressivechild]

@OropherThranduil - Well, it depends. I mean, I personally think Marciano was a great fighter with lots of heart but the lack of competition makes his prime highly unproven. I mean, his record look pretty. He had no one left to fight because there wasn't any competition left and fighting bums would be a waste of his talent... That's why he retired. But his performance against washed out legends (despite winning them all) tells me he can't win these men in their primes.

[OropherThranduil]

@expressivechild

They weren't all as washed out as many want to believe.

(for infos read the artcile Objectively Weighing In on Marciano vs. Ali on google, search for it, it talks about opponents of both and so on).

you shouldn't forget he was the best trained fighter of his time, he was addicted to working out, i think he had at least a decent chance against any heavy weight champion there was.

[expressivechild]

@OropherThranduil - I did some research on Marciano. He enjoys working out unlike other boxers who dislikes training. At his prime he can bend a heavy bag with one powerful punch using either hard. I don't doubt his power, stamina, chin, toughness and most of all his heart. And anyone who fights him will have to put in a great deal of effort.

But then, realistically he won't beat many legends in their primes. He might not get knocked out, but decision or stoppage is still possible.(continue)

[expressivechild]

@OropherThranduil - I admire him mostly for his heart, but then I can't say that he will definitely win legends like Ali or Louis in their primes. Ezzard Charles who fought him courageously lost. He was suffering from Lou Gehrig's disease and of course age was catching up on him already. Yet, he portrayed loads of heart by giving Marciano an unforgettable fight. Marciano is a brave fighter, and possibly he never thought that he beat only faded legends. Would have been greater in another era..

[OropherThranduil]

@expressivechild

definitely he wouldn't be knocked out i think.

but i also think he's one of the few who could probably KO anybody with a wellplaced Suzi Q in the later rounds, between 10 and 15, simply because his superior stamina would give him as much power in the 13 as he had in the beginning, yeah, i think Rocky could've ben Champ in any Era, but we will never know that, he retired after there was no competition left and he fought anybody who was wirth fighting.

R.I.P Rocky Marciano

[expressivechild]

@OropherThranduil - Well, yes. I agree that his Suzi Q punch is a devastating finisher, if he is able to land it. He might he champ in another era, but definitely won't remain undefeated. He might be known as the champ who never got knocked out before though... But I can only give him that much. Because I know there are just too many greater fighters out there.

[OropherThranduil]

@expressivechild

We can't know that.

Rocky is one of the few i think who could have KOd almost anyone in 15 rounds, and he could take a beating like you said, and his stamina let him go wild in the last 3 rounds, when most boxers are exhausted, i mean he got beaten the shit out of him by walcott, then suzy Qed him in 13.

[expressivechild]

@OropherThranduil - That's the thing. He was in his prime at a time when there is no worthy opponents left. The right place at the right time... As much I as respect him for his heart, there is no way to know for certain how he'd fare against great fighters in their primes. Walcott was already old, just like many fighters he Koed in the past. So thats one of the reasons I doubt he could win them if they were younger. But like you said, we'd never know for sure...

[OropherThranduil]

@expressivechild

Objectively Weighing In on Marciano vs. Ali

you should read this article, search it on google.

it talks about their opponents and what pros thought of them at the time they fought M, for example nat fleischer and joe louis both said walcott was probably at his best during the marciano fights, looking at his career up to that point.

It's an interesting read, it also does the same about alis fights.

[lazur1]

@OropherThranduil I've seen footage of Frazier saying that -he'd- beat Marciano. Can't find anything recorded where he contradicts that.

[OropherThranduil]

@lazur1

well, this quote here is wuoted on ma ysites:

"Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. Rocky Marciano is second only to Louis. Where do I rate Ali? Somewhere below me. I beat him, and if I could beat him, no doubt Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano could have beaten him."

-- Joe Frazier

[lazur1]

@OropherThranduil Okay. I still don't actually -see- & -hear- Frazier. i -did- for the quote about he himself being able to beat Rocky, (he strongly implied Ali would too). I believe Joe probably made -both- statements. Unfortunately, unless Joe's confronted to resolve this, the contradiction makes neither statement have any value.

[kingzula]

@OropherThranduil your nuts!!!!!!!!!!

[OropherThranduil]

@OropherThranduil

it's not my upmaking.

it's a quote from Frazier hhimself.

[suweliehooper]

Anybody noticing how cool Clay and Liston are to eachother when they shake hands at 0:35?

[primeboxers]

@suweliehooper Clay hadn't start his 'bear-hunting' yet...

[RandomLevitation]

@primeboxers Thats what I was gonna say before i saw your comment haha. Little did he know he would be the same one to come and snatch his title away. Poor little bear

[footyfan05]

@suweliehooper wat else would liston do ali would jus k.o him again

[primeboxers]

@bangitslo There were no others to fight. It was not a great division at the time. The only other great boxer at the time was Ezzard Charles. When there were no one else to fight he retired.

And indeed was he small, Archie Moore who was the light-heavyweight champion outweighed him.

Ali never pressed an opponent, not in his prime anyway. And being short Rocky would easily wreck Ali's body.

Who the winner would be is uncertain, but it would at least be an interesting fight.

[AliRidah619]

yes archie was old but you gotta give ali his props he beat one of the greatest fighters ever in archie moore and he's one of the greatest himself

[primeboxers]

@AliRidah619 Oh yes, you're right. But I'm very sure Archie would have put up a greater challenge in his prime, Cassius would still be the winner though.

[AliRidah619]

@primeboxers yeah thats true shit if archie was in his prime i think there would of been a trilogy lol

[mitjandjija]

@primeboxers In some interview Archie said that Ali would probably be the winner if he was younger in that fight.He also said that he believe Marciano would win vs prime Ali.

[primeboxers]

@mitjandjija And Ali said in 1977 that the fighters of the past that would have given him the most trouble was Jack Johnson and Rocky Marciano and he was not sure who the winner would be.

[mitjandjija]

I dont know why this commentator said that Archie was 43.He was at least 45 and probably around 50.

[primeboxers]

@mitjandjija yeah, they also messed up his boxing record...

[primeboxers]

@mitjandjija In 1956, on the 'What's My Line' show, he said he was 43 to 46, so in 1962 he would be 49 to 52...