"no nation has ever benafited from prolonged conflict unless your name is ether Blackwater or Halliburton" sun Tzu has so many other great quotes my favorite is "know your enemy and know yourself and in 100 battles you will never be in pearl"
that's why usa lost in vietnam. ...dragged on too long and drained billions of dollars and many soldiers didn't know why they were fighting.... couldve been similiar in Korea had truman didn't asked for armistice.
@sergei91federov Actually i would argue the US suceeded in vietnam, they just didn't accomplish 100% of the objectives. It's like arguing we failed in world war 2 because we didn't take berlin
@Keinlicht The US succeeded in Vietnam? I seriously doubt that if you were referring to a war victory. The US wasn't trying to "take" Vietnam. They were trying to bulwark communism. Same with Korea. Neither China nor US wanted to "take" Korea either.
@sergei91federov Oddly enough that's exactly what I meant. The US was worried that the Vietnamese populous movement was going to spread to surrounding countries, and the invasion of south Vietnam very effectively put a stopper on that.
I assume by 'War victory' you mean total destruction or neutralization of enemy forces?
@Keinlicht The Chinese and Vietnamese viewed warfare as total warfare. That is: they don't see it as "winning" on individual battlefields, but to achieve sovereignty using every resource as a means to an end. If you're talking about "winning" in terms of casualties, then obviously the US "won", but the end result was North Vietnamese communist sovereignty. That's what I meant by "war victory".
@sergei91federov I'm not talking about casualties. The aim of the US was to halt the spread of their communist front from gaining footholds in other parts of southeast Asia. They succeeded in doing that by leaving both Vietnam and Cambodia wrecked and destroyed, to wither under the effects of chemical warfare.
He should have remembered that, "All warfare is based on Deception." That being said, his enemies might be more careful about what he's going to do. Double effect?
I think we all wanted to say this for a long time. Coming from a politician gives it more weight though. I remember how funny it was when I read that the Chinese Chairman gave President Bush a copy of the Art of War on a visit. Still wonder now if he ever bothered to read it.
Socialista citing a tiny tidbit. Always talking in circles and citing stuff out of context when it suits him. Alynsky is more appropiate author for my former rep. to cite. Eight months ago the leftist pig phony insulted a group of us while having a meal over a political meeting. If lard ass ever intrudes on a meal when I visit Florida fatboy will get a lesson in manners.
(Continued) Because if you are not ok with blatant deception, lying, dirty tricks and propaganda, then I don't think it would make much sense for anyone here or Alan Grayson to use Sun Tzu's quote as an argument against being in Afghanistan. Afghanistan is, of course, a very degraded war which has been handled horribly in my opinion, but I have a strange feeling Grayson used Sun Tzu's single quote without actually understanding Sun Tzu's entire lesson.
@MaverickWhig: I really dislike when someone uses small passages to make a political point. I also do not like wars. But if you are going to fight one, then yes, I am perfectly (morally and ethically) ok with deceiving our adversaries. Why should we continue to lose the lives of our young men and women because we feel some need to play fair?
@AeroRiley Actually I agree with you whole heartedly. I was just making sure certain people who are overtly political understood what the book is actually about.
Just one question. I really just want to make sure of this. Are all you guys cheer leading Grayson willing to fully commit to the strategy the Art of War endorses?
Yes, Sun Tzu said you should avoid fighting. However, in place of that, he said you should embrace deception. Sometimes wars have to be fought, as a matter of life or death for the state, it is extremely serious.
So I'm just asking, you all are morally and ethically ok with deceiving our current adversaries. (Continues)
So eloquent and politically said but between you, me and a hill of beans (or should I say Poppy Capsules?) . . . we both know that "Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable." -George Orwell. Have you stopped to think about the relationship between narcotics and the on-going insurgency in the region? Who benefits from the relationship? let's see the Afgan govt., the Taliban, Al Queda, & our favorite boys club, the CIA. Yes, it's very much theater.
Oh . . . that's so rich Eternity Thought. Yeah, why don't we force a new found fledgling democracy (much like ours that is just slightly older than 200 years) upon these people who have been living if left to their own design without any crap from Russia or US for over 2 0 0 0 years! 'Watch out, if you're not nice well come over to your country and give you our brand of democracy."
@DragonsEye52 Instead of running your mouth, you could educate yourself about what the afghan people want, what the situation is, and what the history is. Leaving them to the mercy of the warlords after knocking down the marginally stable government that had in 2001 is not "leaving them to their own design." It is arrogantly and unforgivably concocting extremely flimsy justifications to renounce responsibility for a country whose systems of government were destroyed by US power.
Are you people kidding me? There has been TWO wars that America has been fighting for close to 40 years, the War on Drugs, and in the 80's Contra to present day War on Terror. Sun Tzu also says, "Defeat comes from fighting TWO wars, the war at HOME and the war ABROAD", and I paraphrased this old philosophy. Hopefully it isn't too late to draw up a treaty.
You do not benefit from a protracted war in afghanistan, but you still have an obligation to fix what you broke. Help the Afghan people evict the warlords and establish a government that represents their values and interests. Just because you aren't getting anything out of it doesn't mean you don't have an obligation to stay.
"What's that thar fancy thing he was doin'? Oh, he was READIN'?! Uh BOOK?! That thar ELEETIST ain't gonna come up into MY gubment and read some COMMIE BOOK from when Jesus made the earth! What good is history anyway?! 'Merica! Fuck yeah!" <-- What the tea-bagger was thinking after Mr. Grayson finished.
Moron, 'ideology' didn't even exist until the French Revolution. Sun Tzu said that subversion and deception are useful in winning wars. He didn;t say anything about political or cultural subversion.
@thAchauffeur B4 you go calling me names like a child:Sun Tzu taught that military action was not as sophisticated as subversion. He thought it was the ultimate form of warfare. The KGB gave its agents in training Sun Tzu's book translated into Russian. Ideological Subversion was the main objective of the KGB during the Cold War. Today, the C.W. is over, but there are remnants left, like the specter of leftists subverting our system and trying to re-write the constitution. Look up Yuri Bezmenov.
@thAchauffeur What the fuck are you talking about? Ideology didn't exist until the French revolution? Try cracking a history book sometime.
On the other hand, I am all for inflicting progressivism on the US. It's the progressives who ended child labour, got women the vote, ended slavery, and established social safety nets that have saved millions of lives. If someone thinks that's a "cancer", then that's a good sign the person is exactly the sort of monster America was founded to escape.
@EternityThought except they didn't end slavery, they just changed it to an economic slave. its all theatre, left vs. right. bush = bad cop, obama = good cop, but they both still want to control you.
@johnnyappleseedism That's not an especially intelligent expression of an anti-capitalist ideology. If you think the end of actual, literal slavery in north america wasn't a significant world-bettering event for millions of people, then you need to seriously examine your connection with reality.
The quasi-marxist concept of wage slavery is important and should be considered a problem by ethical people, but implying that it's just 19th-century literal slavery under another name is moronic.
Didn't we go there to drive al-Qaeda (a.k.a. al-Qaida, al-Qa'ida) out of there? Welll, mission accomplished. They are in Pakistan and everywhere else now so, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! Let's get the hell out and let them fight the fractious civil war they have been fighting for 30 years plus. The right is crying about the cost of the healthcare bill? Well, I'm sick of my tax dollars being pored into these rat-hole wars when the original purpose for them is gone (or was a lie).
I hope Grayson gets reelected, not because I agree with anything he says, just how he says it, he's wildly entertaining, the nuttiest guy in Congress for sure!
I hope that Alan Grayson got re-elected in the fall of 2010. the house need people like him. maybe he will be running in some years as a senator for FL.
Examples: If you are near your enemy make him think you are far away. If you are strong then make your enemy think you are weak. And so on... The idea is to constantly give your enemy false and misleading information about you, so he's make decisions based on that incorrect information. Then you want to exploit his mistakes, unless you're the US Congress, then you're going to get it all back-ass-backwards.
Robert E. Lee and Dwight D Eisenhower were avid readers of Sun Tzu as well, Douche-nozzle!!!
Sun Tzu's teachings have been valued by quite a few prominent world leaders throughout history. Don't devalue it by throwing Mao around in the conversation.
dude, what's wrong with you? I never intended to "devalue" the book. Mao was a military genius. Since when did politics have anything to do with tactical ability? I bet there were great Nazi generals too.
Please don't jump to conclusions so quickly, we are adults, aren't we? so, keep your temper under control until you see the full picture.
I apologize....I assume you were trying to devalue what Rep. Grayson had to say by equating him to Maoist communist. Which i really dont have a massive beef with socialist thought, but you understand how loaded the term communism is. In otherwords i thought you were a troll.
Anyway totally agree...Good and Bad folk have both benefited from Sun Tzu
Some of the greatest generals in history carried a copy of Sun Tzu with them at all times. Sun Tzu principles do apply to our wars in the Middle East. What is so utterly ridiculous is that our gov't thinks that what Sun Tzu teaches doesn't apply to us. Ha Ha Ha Ha. One day very soon those half-witted politicians in DC will find out that Sun Tzu's teachings do apply to them and the US military. It's hard to believe how totally out of touch with reality our gov't has become. Talk about folly!
Its all history, Napolean lost a protracted war in Russia, Hitler lost when Operation Barbarossa stretched into winter, the Soviets did not expect to battle the Mujahideen 5 years into the invasion and in 2003 on board USS Abraham Lincoln GW Bush did expect US troops to still be fighting Iraqis at the end of his 2nd term.
"Those Who Forget History Are Doomed to Repeat It"
You forget there is a group that benefits from all wars and that is the war machine profiteers. This war is for them and always has been. What Americans want is besides the point. We are the slaves of the Elite that benefit from our blood and tax dollars everyday. We are like rabbits standing around discussing how the wolves don't understand our hardships or care about us. They do understand the hardships, they invented them and no, they don't care.
Sun Tzu has been consistently proved right, and history shows that if you don't win a war quickly and have clear objectives, you will pay a heavy price in blood and treasure.
Sun Tzu's famous quote "know your enemy, and know yourself" is all about objectivity. Many US leaders fail miserably here; they know nothing of their enemy (Bush was ignorant of the Sunni/Shia) and they tend to underestimate their enemies because they assume America will win by default.
One part of Sun Tzu's Art of War that cracked me up was how the acme of skill was to win wars without battles and how that general was never recognized as a master.
Sun Tzu is and will be the master of war and those who ignore him a disgrace as generals and men.
I think it would be according to his doctrine to just support the Taliban's enemies in Afghanistan and let them fight over the country. Karzai could do as much without American troops around.
Except that it doesn't encourage them to not fight once we stop paying them. It's like stopping a crack in Hoover Dam with papier mache - a temporary fix, if it works at all. So nowhere near a win.
Paying your enemy not to fight is one of the most ridiculous strategies ever, because it just gives them more resources to equip themselves better, and more time to train and prepare to kick your ass. So instead of our soldiers fighting a unit with four ak-47's, they fight a unit with twenty.
the idea is to stall your enemy when you are at a disadvantageous situation. Once your situation improves, thenyou can stop paying them, and crush them. it's in the book, avoid ur enemy when they are strong, attack when they are vulnerable.
Except that we have no ability to pay for this war - other than sinking our country further into debt to international banks and despotic countries like China. We will never have the advantage in Afghanistan.
The Russians tried it - didn't work. And if you think our so-called strategy in Afghanistan is something besides more wishful thinking and throwing money in the toilet, then you're obviously part of the target market for those poppy products the drug lords are exporting!
I'm not here to debate about whether the war is justified. That's a political debate, and I'll stay out of it. But, according to the book, fighting wars in faraway places is never a good idea. 1) cost is staggering 2)unfamiliar territory (difficult to know "thy enemy" well) 3) hard to get domestic support. So, if the decision makers had read the Art of War in the first place, they woud've stayed away from going there.
Finally, as the book suggests, retreating isn't such a bad strategy either.
I really thought President Obama would bring our troops home and end this fiasco. Sigh, I guess our country is really a corporatacracy like everyone is saying. Time to relocate to Canada. It's colder than a witches tit up there, but what choice do I have.
Somewhere on the internet there is an article explaining that over 1 million well off Americans left the US in 2006...don't know how they managed to figure that number since the US gov. counts only the people that enter the US not leave...well, I happen to be one of them but I don't think it was the best choice...1st off there are problems in Canada & other places in the word not just the US 2nd I would rather put up a fight in my country & work on the issues but the prob. is I need health care.
Sick Americans can not fight the good fight if they are physically down. So I'm trying to fight while overseas but I do miss the US. I just wish my fellow American people would get a clue about these wasteful, illegal wars, quit bailing out Wall Street who in my opinion are the REAL terrorists. Paulson should have been held for treason for holding the US economy hostage so that certain big banks would be bailed out. Thirdly and most importantly have free universal health care.
It's great to see you quote such a wise philosopher especially on war. Thomas Jefferson; a founding father, often read the wise words of Plato for added wisdom. Keep speaking truth. =)
Grayson is my kind of leader. He and Ron Paul should get on the ticket for US President / VP in 2012. Grayson for his strength and honesty. Ron Paul for his wisdom and personal integrity.
on problem with ron paul is he'll want to eliminate our education system. he believes all children should be homeschooled. he also believes in no gov't regulation in the corporate sector. our children would be idiots and middle class would turn to poor while CEOs would run the country.
he does have some interesting views tho if he changed his policy on some key things he would be a good republican candidate
I agree with you. eXcommunicate1979 is undoubtedly a good person, even one of us, I think, but he is just guessing. I think Grayson and Paul as P/VP would be one Hell of a good start in the direction...
you're joking right? pls tell me you're the only person in the world who thinks this way.
when clinton was in office there was a surplus in our economy. +GDP when bush took office, our economy started going down. 1.5trillion after he left. our unemployment is at 10.2% right now.
again, please tell me this was a sick attempt at a joke?
but the BANKSTER GANGSTER and OIL men who are sacrificing AMERICAN & AFGAN live for that OIL PIPELINE from the CASPIEN SEA thru AFGHANISTAN do BENEFIT!
Actually i think the problem with the Afghan war is the same as with most of the wars America has been involved with. The CIA is in bed with criminals, and that's distorting the whole thing.
Besides that: Hood idea to end this war. It doesn't lead to anything, and cost human lives.
I love Grayson cause he supports transparency at the Fed and cause he supports busting up the health insurance cartel(i.e. the most vile scam ever in human history).
I WANT to hate Grayson so much for his socialist position on health care, but I gotta love him for his position for FED transparency and his position against the MIC/Bank/Big Oil build up of the War in Afghanistan.
Nicolo Machievelli, in "The Prince" advised, that a country like Afghanistan, with a weak central government, was easy to conquer, but difficult to occupy.
If we are to assume that PTB read these books, they know how things work, Therefore they are trying to destroy the US.
It's all about war-profiteering...listen to President Eisenhower's 1961 speech warning us about the military-industrial complex, 30,000 more troops to
Apparently Rep. Grayson didn't get the memo that president Obama takes orders. Potentially the most powerful man on earth is the president of the US but Obama is someones bitch. He does whatever he's told.
no, obama is trying to clean up bush's mess, and if he does it the way he wants to, he'll either lose the 12 election, or be killed...but you can choose to be ignorant if you want...
I won't be voting for President Obama in 2012. As a person who knocked on doors, made phone calls, passed out lit and gave rides on election day, I must say that President Obama has proven himself to be a Corporate War Mongering Whore, just like his predecessor. I just want the Racket(s) to stop folks. And to do that we need to support the likes of Rep. Grayson, Sen. Feingold and Rep. Paul.
Obama is really god damned terrible. He's done worse that I could have imagined. I can't concieve of anything Obama has done that McCain wouldn't have.
Looks like it'll be either him or Palin. LOL Just don't vote, you vote doesn't count anyway + you have a right to complain no matter which one fucks up the country. I personally can't believe how many people actually thought Obama would be different. Every single president has promised change and look where we are now.
No, I don't think a troop surge serves any purpose but to prolong a war we have nothing to gain from. Afghanistan has been in a civil war for well over 3 decades now. The Soviets tried and failed nation building here in the 80's, and we will fail now.
He's made a lot of Neo-cons, Republicans and all very happy by his decision. I thought he was trying to find a way to bring them out of there. This war should have ended soon and not protracted rather.
The more you think about it, the more realize that these are complex issues that also, people are basically good, and one can assume that odds are the new administration is working in the public interest. Also, politcs are just a headache. Why even bother getting so involved with it?
If only the president had advisers like you we would be in a better spot. You need to run for president as you seem to be the only one speaking with any degree of intelligence and backing your positions with facts or at least with the weight of history.
Thank you, Alan Grayson. 'Bout fucking time that we have some people in Washington that HAVE BALLS and WANT WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST TO ALL OF US, not just the goddamned 1% of us that thinks they're the hot shit.
sun tzu is quite a role model. for some reason he just knows what to do even when times are tough
thatmrdudeman 5 months ago
"no nation has ever benafited from prolonged conflict unless your name is ether Blackwater or Halliburton" sun Tzu has so many other great quotes my favorite is "know your enemy and know yourself and in 100 battles you will never be in pearl"
xxGhostXIIIxx 8 months ago
i dont like all his thoughts but i do admire his aniti-war theology war is only destructive and never productive
Evans4836914 8 months ago
Grayson tried, they got rid of him.
mandaladouble 9 months ago
that's why usa lost in vietnam. ...dragged on too long and drained billions of dollars and many soldiers didn't know why they were fighting.... couldve been similiar in Korea had truman didn't asked for armistice.
sergei91federov 10 months ago
@sergei91federov Actually i would argue the US suceeded in vietnam, they just didn't accomplish 100% of the objectives. It's like arguing we failed in world war 2 because we didn't take berlin
Keinlicht 10 months ago
@Keinlicht The US succeeded in Vietnam? I seriously doubt that if you were referring to a war victory. The US wasn't trying to "take" Vietnam. They were trying to bulwark communism. Same with Korea. Neither China nor US wanted to "take" Korea either.
sergei91federov 9 months ago
@sergei91federov Oddly enough that's exactly what I meant. The US was worried that the Vietnamese populous movement was going to spread to surrounding countries, and the invasion of south Vietnam very effectively put a stopper on that.
I assume by 'War victory' you mean total destruction or neutralization of enemy forces?
Keinlicht 9 months ago
@Keinlicht The Chinese and Vietnamese viewed warfare as total warfare. That is: they don't see it as "winning" on individual battlefields, but to achieve sovereignty using every resource as a means to an end. If you're talking about "winning" in terms of casualties, then obviously the US "won", but the end result was North Vietnamese communist sovereignty. That's what I meant by "war victory".
sergei91federov 9 months ago
@sergei91federov I'm not talking about casualties. The aim of the US was to halt the spread of their communist front from gaining footholds in other parts of southeast Asia. They succeeded in doing that by leaving both Vietnam and Cambodia wrecked and destroyed, to wither under the effects of chemical warfare.
Keinlicht 9 months ago
He should have remembered that, "All warfare is based on Deception." That being said, his enemies might be more careful about what he's going to do. Double effect?
3ch056 11 months ago
Everyone should read the art of war
brianmoran1973 11 months ago
Politicians spend too much time reading The Prince.
AmericanOutlaw87 1 year ago
@AmericanOutlaw87
I agree.
WSWarthog 10 months ago
I think we all wanted to say this for a long time. Coming from a politician gives it more weight though. I remember how funny it was when I read that the Chinese Chairman gave President Bush a copy of the Art of War on a visit. Still wonder now if he ever bothered to read it.
nydaimyo 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
What can stop us JP.Morgan's & Rothschild's & Rokfeller's from slaving u America?
1. Cancelation of a Fed.Reserve bill by 1864 & 1913
2. Nationalisation of Money making mashine for EVER
3. Cut down of a Fed.Reserve Bank Levarage from 1:9 down to 1:1
4. Withdrawall of USA from IMF.
5. Entire Congress, Public,Lie Detector TEST & Legal inprisonment of gilty
these 5 steps would mess up My LIMITLESS POWER over you.
We wounт stop doing our best not let u make it happen, THOUGH ! ..AHhahahah
vadimuskoro 1 year ago
Sun Tzu said that!
ColorPrinter42 1 year ago
I think even the generals in Afghanistan know about this.
juliusyeung0330 1 year ago
Someone knows their Sun Tzu. A +++
timesrunning 1 year ago
Anyone doubting the pertinence of this comment as to the war in Afghanistan was not paying attention during the war in Vietnam.
docmalthus 1 year ago
alan grayson saved our schools
nolanmtrach 1 year ago
Feudal lords exploiting disarray and attack? Everyone knows that had already happened on Wall Street.
Seres1091 1 year ago
Sun Tzu is a model ,we need to preserve his teaching.
Jimderkaisser 1 year ago
Socialista citing a tiny tidbit. Always talking in circles and citing stuff out of context when it suits him. Alynsky is more appropiate author for my former rep. to cite. Eight months ago the leftist pig phony insulted a group of us while having a meal over a political meeting. If lard ass ever intrudes on a meal when I visit Florida fatboy will get a lesson in manners.
eccoe 1 year ago
yes, i endorce this book because you can translate this book to other things and happenings in life.
greenmagic12 1 year ago
(Continued) Because if you are not ok with blatant deception, lying, dirty tricks and propaganda, then I don't think it would make much sense for anyone here or Alan Grayson to use Sun Tzu's quote as an argument against being in Afghanistan. Afghanistan is, of course, a very degraded war which has been handled horribly in my opinion, but I have a strange feeling Grayson used Sun Tzu's single quote without actually understanding Sun Tzu's entire lesson.
MaverickWhig 1 year ago
@MaverickWhig: I really dislike when someone uses small passages to make a political point. I also do not like wars. But if you are going to fight one, then yes, I am perfectly (morally and ethically) ok with deceiving our adversaries. Why should we continue to lose the lives of our young men and women because we feel some need to play fair?
AeroRiley 1 year ago
@AeroRiley Actually I agree with you whole heartedly. I was just making sure certain people who are overtly political understood what the book is actually about.
MaverickWhig 1 year ago
@MaverickWhig the us used propaganda, deception, dirty tricks, and etc against the nazis.....
wade2bosh 1 year ago
Just one question. I really just want to make sure of this. Are all you guys cheer leading Grayson willing to fully commit to the strategy the Art of War endorses?
Yes, Sun Tzu said you should avoid fighting. However, in place of that, he said you should embrace deception. Sometimes wars have to be fought, as a matter of life or death for the state, it is extremely serious.
So I'm just asking, you all are morally and ethically ok with deceiving our current adversaries. (Continues)
MaverickWhig 1 year ago
The weapons contractors & oil companies & illegal drug & slave trade certainly benefits. In other words, the ANGLO MAFIA (American government) =))
DuralastTurbo 1 year ago
we should be follwing this book like the bible. this is a good replacement.
greenmagic12 1 year ago
@greenmagic12 So you're saying you endorse the Art of War and all its lessons whole heartedly?
MaverickWhig 1 year ago
wow one of my new favourite american politicians.
-a canadian
greenmagic12 1 year ago
So eloquent and politically said but between you, me and a hill of beans (or should I say Poppy Capsules?) . . . we both know that "Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable." -George Orwell. Have you stopped to think about the relationship between narcotics and the on-going insurgency in the region? Who benefits from the relationship? let's see the Afgan govt., the Taliban, Al Queda, & our favorite boys club, the CIA. Yes, it's very much theater.
DragonsEye52 1 year ago
Sun Tzu knowledge and wisdom is needed in hard times such as this...........
indian0121 1 year ago
Oh . . . that's so rich Eternity Thought. Yeah, why don't we force a new found fledgling democracy (much like ours that is just slightly older than 200 years) upon these people who have been living if left to their own design without any crap from Russia or US for over 2 0 0 0 years! 'Watch out, if you're not nice well come over to your country and give you our brand of democracy."
DragonsEye52 1 year ago
@DragonsEye52 Instead of running your mouth, you could educate yourself about what the afghan people want, what the situation is, and what the history is. Leaving them to the mercy of the warlords after knocking down the marginally stable government that had in 2001 is not "leaving them to their own design." It is arrogantly and unforgivably concocting extremely flimsy justifications to renounce responsibility for a country whose systems of government were destroyed by US power.
EternityThought 1 year ago
That was awesome!
SunlitTrollFilms 1 year ago
always listen to the WISEMEN Say!!!!!!!
Tien1185 1 year ago
Are you people kidding me? There has been TWO wars that America has been fighting for close to 40 years, the War on Drugs, and in the 80's Contra to present day War on Terror. Sun Tzu also says, "Defeat comes from fighting TWO wars, the war at HOME and the war ABROAD", and I paraphrased this old philosophy. Hopefully it isn't too late to draw up a treaty.
HardDaySun 1 year ago
You do not benefit from a protracted war in afghanistan, but you still have an obligation to fix what you broke. Help the Afghan people evict the warlords and establish a government that represents their values and interests. Just because you aren't getting anything out of it doesn't mean you don't have an obligation to stay.
EternityThought 1 year ago
Yeah, but only if the instigators of the recent wars knew how to spell their own names, let alone read.
maugustyniak 1 year ago
"What's that thar fancy thing he was doin'? Oh, he was READIN'?! Uh BOOK?! That thar ELEETIST ain't gonna come up into MY gubment and read some COMMIE BOOK from when Jesus made the earth! What good is history anyway?! 'Merica! Fuck yeah!" <-- What the tea-bagger was thinking after Mr. Grayson finished.
magog1138 1 year ago 2
Sun Tzu also taught ideological subversion, the same cancer that "progressives" are inflicting upon the US.
ignati123 1 year ago
@ignati123
Moron, 'ideology' didn't even exist until the French Revolution. Sun Tzu said that subversion and deception are useful in winning wars. He didn;t say anything about political or cultural subversion.
thAchauffeur 1 year ago
@thAchauffeur B4 you go calling me names like a child:Sun Tzu taught that military action was not as sophisticated as subversion. He thought it was the ultimate form of warfare. The KGB gave its agents in training Sun Tzu's book translated into Russian. Ideological Subversion was the main objective of the KGB during the Cold War. Today, the C.W. is over, but there are remnants left, like the specter of leftists subverting our system and trying to re-write the constitution. Look up Yuri Bezmenov.
ignati123 1 year ago
@thAchauffeur What the fuck are you talking about? Ideology didn't exist until the French revolution? Try cracking a history book sometime.
On the other hand, I am all for inflicting progressivism on the US. It's the progressives who ended child labour, got women the vote, ended slavery, and established social safety nets that have saved millions of lives. If someone thinks that's a "cancer", then that's a good sign the person is exactly the sort of monster America was founded to escape.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@EternityThought except they didn't end slavery, they just changed it to an economic slave. its all theatre, left vs. right. bush = bad cop, obama = good cop, but they both still want to control you.
johnnyappleseedism 1 year ago
@johnnyappleseedism That's not an especially intelligent expression of an anti-capitalist ideology. If you think the end of actual, literal slavery in north america wasn't a significant world-bettering event for millions of people, then you need to seriously examine your connection with reality.
The quasi-marxist concept of wage slavery is important and should be considered a problem by ethical people, but implying that it's just 19th-century literal slavery under another name is moronic.
EternityThought 1 year ago
@thAchauffeur
Ideology? Do explain. How did ideology not exist until the French Revolution.
Wars have been fought thousands of years before the French Revolution, you cannot tell me they were fought without ideologies.
nosferotica1 1 year ago
Grayson for PRESIDENT!
jpmorgan187 1 year ago
Comment removed
lwolf1952 1 year ago
Didn't we go there to drive al-Qaeda (a.k.a. al-Qaida, al-Qa'ida) out of there? Welll, mission accomplished. They are in Pakistan and everywhere else now so, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! Let's get the hell out and let them fight the fractious civil war they have been fighting for 30 years plus. The right is crying about the cost of the healthcare bill? Well, I'm sick of my tax dollars being pored into these rat-hole wars when the original purpose for them is gone (or was a lie).
lwolf1952 1 year ago
@lwolf1952 Well said.
KnuckleBallz 1 year ago
Simple and effective. A very relevant quote to use.
EricMetalGuitarist 1 year ago
all this fuss in Afghanistan just because some corporations want a pipeline.
all they had to do was *ask* & pay the fee requested.
instead? thousands dead, billions spent, lives of families & communities destroyed...
all they had to do was ask.
for thousands of years, NOBODY but Alexander won anything in Afghanistan.
& Afghans have a long memory & learn from their mistakes.
Americans had more money & ego than brains
or maybe the folks running the war, don't care about winning, just making $
ThisCanadian 1 year ago
Drain the enemies wallet first and you win.
stuntdoogie 2 years ago 4
your congressman is nuts
diamonddave514 2 years ago
I hope Grayson gets reelected, not because I agree with anything he says, just how he says it, he's wildly entertaining, the nuttiest guy in Congress for sure!
BadaBingBadaBoom012 2 years ago
Alan Grayson is a smart and cool guy :)
TitusFlavius79 2 years ago 6
@TitusFlavius79 Yep, but they all probably hate him in DC. I'm okay with that because it's proof that he's doing his job.
RarewareLover 1 year ago
I hope that Alan Grayson got re-elected in the fall of 2010. the house need people like him. maybe he will be running in some years as a senator for FL.
TitusFlavius79 1 year ago
Yeah! Tell it to them Grayson! You are my new hero, and if you ever run for President, you will get my vote.
pt4audi 2 years ago 25
WOW! Damn, I love Alan Grayson!
ItzMeRon 2 years ago 19
The essence of Sun Tzu's book is this:
The art of war is the art of deception...
Examples: If you are near your enemy make him think you are far away. If you are strong then make your enemy think you are weak. And so on... The idea is to constantly give your enemy false and misleading information about you, so he's make decisions based on that incorrect information. Then you want to exploit his mistakes, unless you're the US Congress, then you're going to get it all back-ass-backwards.
BeadStallcup 2 years ago 3
dude. dont try to summarize sun tzu. just dont.
scarletletterman84 2 years ago
I am afraid that Chinese communists read Sun Tzu)
TheCentralasian 2 years ago
too late, it was one of Mao's favorite books.
626718 2 years ago
Robert E. Lee and Dwight D Eisenhower were avid readers of Sun Tzu as well, Douche-nozzle!!!
Sun Tzu's teachings have been valued by quite a few prominent world leaders throughout history. Don't devalue it by throwing Mao around in the conversation.
PaganBodhisatva 2 years ago 7
dude, what's wrong with you? I never intended to "devalue" the book. Mao was a military genius. Since when did politics have anything to do with tactical ability? I bet there were great Nazi generals too.
Please don't jump to conclusions so quickly, we are adults, aren't we? so, keep your temper under control until you see the full picture.
626718 2 years ago
I apologize....I assume you were trying to devalue what Rep. Grayson had to say by equating him to Maoist communist. Which i really dont have a massive beef with socialist thought, but you understand how loaded the term communism is. In otherwords i thought you were a troll.
Anyway totally agree...Good and Bad folk have both benefited from Sun Tzu
PaganBodhisatva 2 years ago
I am so in love with this man.
caroleflann 2 years ago 2
Some of the greatest generals in history carried a copy of Sun Tzu with them at all times. Sun Tzu principles do apply to our wars in the Middle East. What is so utterly ridiculous is that our gov't thinks that what Sun Tzu teaches doesn't apply to us. Ha Ha Ha Ha. One day very soon those half-witted politicians in DC will find out that Sun Tzu's teachings do apply to them and the US military. It's hard to believe how totally out of touch with reality our gov't has become. Talk about folly!
OldBenFranklin 2 years ago 2
Its all history, Napolean lost a protracted war in Russia, Hitler lost when Operation Barbarossa stretched into winter, the Soviets did not expect to battle the Mujahideen 5 years into the invasion and in 2003 on board USS Abraham Lincoln GW Bush did expect US troops to still be fighting Iraqis at the end of his 2nd term.
"Those Who Forget History Are Doomed to Repeat It"
xdir 2 years ago 2
You forget there is a group that benefits from all wars and that is the war machine profiteers. This war is for them and always has been. What Americans want is besides the point. We are the slaves of the Elite that benefit from our blood and tax dollars everyday. We are like rabbits standing around discussing how the wolves don't understand our hardships or care about us. They do understand the hardships, they invented them and no, they don't care.
Textynn 2 years ago 3
GRAYSON FOR PRESIDENT!!!!
barbcinque 2 years ago 5
Sun Tzu has been consistently proved right, and history shows that if you don't win a war quickly and have clear objectives, you will pay a heavy price in blood and treasure.
Sun Tzu's famous quote "know your enemy, and know yourself" is all about objectivity. Many US leaders fail miserably here; they know nothing of their enemy (Bush was ignorant of the Sunni/Shia) and they tend to underestimate their enemies because they assume America will win by default.
Relugus 2 years ago 5
One part of Sun Tzu's Art of War that cracked me up was how the acme of skill was to win wars without battles and how that general was never recognized as a master.
Sun Tzu is and will be the master of war and those who ignore him a disgrace as generals and men.
I think it would be according to his doctrine to just support the Taliban's enemies in Afghanistan and let them fight over the country. Karzai could do as much without American troops around.
xhagast 2 years ago
xhagast...they will never learn will them?
classicallady 2 years ago
Aren't the U.S paying some of the insurgents to not fight? Isn't that a form of "win wars without battles"?
626718 2 years ago 2
It IS but far as I know the US is doing that in Iraq only. Not Afghanistan and that is where the focus is now.
xhagast 2 years ago
Except that it doesn't encourage them to not fight once we stop paying them. It's like stopping a crack in Hoover Dam with papier mache - a temporary fix, if it works at all. So nowhere near a win.
Paying your enemy not to fight is one of the most ridiculous strategies ever, because it just gives them more resources to equip themselves better, and more time to train and prepare to kick your ass. So instead of our soldiers fighting a unit with four ak-47's, they fight a unit with twenty.
mexcurmudgeon 2 years ago
the idea is to stall your enemy when you are at a disadvantageous situation. Once your situation improves, thenyou can stop paying them, and crush them. it's in the book, avoid ur enemy when they are strong, attack when they are vulnerable.
626718 2 years ago
Except that we have no ability to pay for this war - other than sinking our country further into debt to international banks and despotic countries like China. We will never have the advantage in Afghanistan.
The Russians tried it - didn't work. And if you think our so-called strategy in Afghanistan is something besides more wishful thinking and throwing money in the toilet, then you're obviously part of the target market for those poppy products the drug lords are exporting!
mexcurmudgeon 2 years ago
I'm not here to debate about whether the war is justified. That's a political debate, and I'll stay out of it. But, according to the book, fighting wars in faraway places is never a good idea. 1) cost is staggering 2)unfamiliar territory (difficult to know "thy enemy" well) 3) hard to get domestic support. So, if the decision makers had read the Art of War in the first place, they woud've stayed away from going there.
Finally, as the book suggests, retreating isn't such a bad strategy either.
626718 2 years ago
@626718
Yep, that's exactly what the Koran says.
canisfamilliaris 1 year ago
Grayson is the current version of James Trafficant only not as interesting.
Meatpieandtatters 2 years ago
Grayson makes me laugh... hes the most entertaining guy in there for sure.
Castaldo2010 2 years ago 2
I really thought President Obama would bring our troops home and end this fiasco. Sigh, I guess our country is really a corporatacracy like everyone is saying. Time to relocate to Canada. It's colder than a witches tit up there, but what choice do I have.
AnotherAgnostic 2 years ago 3
You can not run from what is coming. It is time to make your line in the sand, and atand your ground, for our childrens future is in your hands.
briankofke 2 years ago
Summers are nice and winter in the north of the US is just as bad.
xhagast 2 years ago
Somewhere on the internet there is an article explaining that over 1 million well off Americans left the US in 2006...don't know how they managed to figure that number since the US gov. counts only the people that enter the US not leave...well, I happen to be one of them but I don't think it was the best choice...1st off there are problems in Canada & other places in the word not just the US 2nd I would rather put up a fight in my country & work on the issues but the prob. is I need health care.
ELisSheba 2 years ago
Sick Americans can not fight the good fight if they are physically down. So I'm trying to fight while overseas but I do miss the US. I just wish my fellow American people would get a clue about these wasteful, illegal wars, quit bailing out Wall Street who in my opinion are the REAL terrorists. Paulson should have been held for treason for holding the US economy hostage so that certain big banks would be bailed out. Thirdly and most importantly have free universal health care.
ELisSheba 2 years ago
It's great to see you quote such a wise philosopher especially on war. Thomas Jefferson; a founding father, often read the wise words of Plato for added wisdom. Keep speaking truth. =)
bionicarcher 2 years ago
Grayson always tells it like it is.
Caribman75 2 years ago
Brilliant!
Grayson/Kucinich.
animalliberation0961 2 years ago
Grayson is my kind of leader. He and Ron Paul should get on the ticket for US President / VP in 2012. Grayson for his strength and honesty. Ron Paul for his wisdom and personal integrity.
BeadStallcup 2 years ago
on problem with ron paul is he'll want to eliminate our education system. he believes all children should be homeschooled. he also believes in no gov't regulation in the corporate sector. our children would be idiots and middle class would turn to poor while CEOs would run the country.
he does have some interesting views tho if he changed his policy on some key things he would be a good republican candidate
wishkah353 2 years ago
Grayson and Paul, although both wise and principled men, are polar opposites ideologically. They would never work as a ticket.
eXcommunicate1979 2 years ago 4
how so? they seem fairly agreeable on several counts
scarletletterman84 2 years ago
I agree with you. eXcommunicate1979 is undoubtedly a good person, even one of us, I think, but he is just guessing. I think Grayson and Paul as P/VP would be one Hell of a good start in the direction...
BeadStallcup 2 years ago
Great delivery. NICE SUIT!
cupidkid 2 years ago
Christanic terrorists can't rape children as much as they want to if they don't commit war.
NotSoOldHippy 2 years ago
Hey guys and gals without war the economy will go tits up....You have to destroy to rebuild and build bombs to destroy....It is the way of the world
findelkind666 2 years ago
You're kidding right? Please tell me you're being sarcastic.
mrbucketface 2 years ago
@findelkind666
you're joking right? pls tell me you're the only person in the world who thinks this way.
when clinton was in office there was a surplus in our economy. +GDP when bush took office, our economy started going down. 1.5trillion after he left. our unemployment is at 10.2% right now.
again, please tell me this was a sick attempt at a joke?
wishkah353 2 years ago
My dad always told me that the only way republicans can build the economy was through war. I think he was on to something.
AnotherAgnostic 2 years ago
the name of the book is (The Art Of War)
acechoice45 2 years ago
This guy is awesome.
coilxcept 2 years ago
wow. what book is that?
MrDustandechoes 2 years ago
thank you grayson!!! this guy is awesome!!!
cjm608 2 years ago
Alan Grayson rules! He is an American Man!
Ron Paul is a douche! Along with every republiclown!
MobRulesNow 2 years ago
Excellent point!!!
elfil76 2 years ago
AMEN!!
2500 years, and we still haven't learned
anything.. Ok, except for how to screw We The People!
1958louief 2 years ago 3
Why does he dress like a mafia boss? Still, it's kinda hard for the Administration to argue with Sun Tzu.
thaiurshoo 2 years ago
Cause he is the FUCKING Awesomest Congressman EVER, with Ron Paul :)
MopacMurtaza 2 years ago 3
I wish he'd read "Green Eggs and Ham" to us. Nap time stories are the best.
ClaudeParish 2 years ago
good call.
jrccdhetlr1 2 years ago 3
We the people don't benefit
but the BANKSTER GANGSTER and OIL men who are sacrificing AMERICAN & AFGAN live for that OIL PIPELINE from the CASPIEN SEA thru AFGHANISTAN do BENEFIT!
2JOHNNYT 2 years ago
I like Grayson, and agree with his point, but just because something is written in an ancient book does not make it true.
This is a dangerous tactic.
Richardgwm 2 years ago
Generally I agree, but Sun Tzu has been proven right over and over again for two thousand, five hundred years.
eXcommunicate1979 2 years ago 3
GOOD going Alan.
Please Mr Grayson would you Look at this, and get interested in these:
TWO GOOD THINGS TO SEE:
ONE, SEE:
"Lord Christopher Monckton: From Global Warming to Global Governance"
TWO, SEE:
"Professor Bob Carter"
Global Warming NEW truth - just out!
A MUST see . . .
weallknowitstrue 2 years ago
the art of war... good job grayson
NEBTV 2 years ago
Grayson 2012
RussianInquisition 2 years ago 3
Ye they did all cringe
But thats the kind of effect a congressman (or woman) needs to have
The congress needs that SHOCK to wake them up again, that someone will stand and speak his/her mind to the fullest extent of the word "Honesty"
Keep it going Mr.Grayson, your hitting hard and fast, i only hope that your mental state can keep up with both the times and this "Protracted War"
Best regards,
VegetaFH1 2 years ago
Lol, when they said it was Grayson coming up to talk they all cringed =D
SirPwn4lot 2 years ago 2
YES
SubmarinerAndroid 2 years ago
Actually i think the problem with the Afghan war is the same as with most of the wars America has been involved with. The CIA is in bed with criminals, and that's distorting the whole thing.
Besides that: Hood idea to end this war. It doesn't lead to anything, and cost human lives.
jo05dk 2 years ago
Paul/Grayson 2012?
daniel987878 2 years ago
I love Grayson cause he supports transparency at the Fed and cause he supports busting up the health insurance cartel(i.e. the most vile scam ever in human history).
dizzymasekela 2 years ago 4
I WANT to hate Grayson so much for his socialist position on health care, but I gotta love him for his position for FED transparency and his position against the MIC/Bank/Big Oil build up of the War in Afghanistan.
prayfortruejustice 2 years ago
I LOVE THIS GUY!
Trojanmagnus 2 years ago 6
Grayson/Kucinich 2012
aunicornist 2 years ago 6
Comment removed
aunicornist 2 years ago
Right on Rep. Grayson!
Nicolo Machievelli, in "The Prince" advised, that a country like Afghanistan, with a weak central government, was easy to conquer, but difficult to occupy.
If we are to assume that PTB read these books, they know how things work, Therefore they are trying to destroy the US.
198madman 2 years ago
It's all about war-profiteering...listen to President Eisenhower's 1961 speech warning us about the military-industrial complex, 30,000 more troops to
be maimed and killed, some CHANGE!!!
jackinla8 2 years ago
sincerely and truly I love this man.
ccm800 2 years ago
Apparently Rep. Grayson didn't get the memo that president Obama takes orders. Potentially the most powerful man on earth is the president of the US but Obama is someones bitch. He does whatever he's told.
BMac7773 2 years ago
Obama is chocolate flavored bush
LeopardFrogPilboxhat 2 years ago
no, obama is trying to clean up bush's mess, and if he does it the way he wants to, he'll either lose the 12 election, or be killed...but you can choose to be ignorant if you want...
that comment was SOO christian!
TheRyanBrooke 2 years ago
so I guess he decided for winning in '12?
he'll run for his fourth term then. it'll be the bush/obama presidency in the history books.
myrelative 2 years ago
Go get em boys!
HooooAAAHH!!
LeopardFrogPilboxhat 2 years ago
I won't be voting for President Obama in 2012. As a person who knocked on doors, made phone calls, passed out lit and gave rides on election day, I must say that President Obama has proven himself to be a Corporate War Mongering Whore, just like his predecessor. I just want the Racket(s) to stop folks. And to do that we need to support the likes of Rep. Grayson, Sen. Feingold and Rep. Paul.
Peace.
Peacetoyouandyours 2 years ago
@Peacetoyouandyours
Obama is really god damned terrible. He's done worse that I could have imagined. I can't concieve of anything Obama has done that McCain wouldn't have.
*Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran*
LeopardFrogPilboxhat 2 years ago
sign the matthew shepherd hate crimes bill (which mccain vociferously opposed)into law
nice try though
you're acting soo christian right now!
TheRyanBrooke 2 years ago 2
Except die in office and leave that air head Palin in charge. I just posted the War vid I found on your channel on my blog Carbon Paper.
Subscribed, friended and reversed the thumbs down some asshole left on your response to me.
Gotta hit the hay now. Wish I had a fucking shot of whiskey.
Peace.
Peacetoyouandyours 2 years ago
Looks like it'll be either him or Palin. LOL Just don't vote, you vote doesn't count anyway + you have a right to complain no matter which one fucks up the country. I personally can't believe how many people actually thought Obama would be different. Every single president has promised change and look where we are now.
fakeham 2 years ago
You look like a "Goodfella" in that suit. Love it!
RockyWhyNot 2 years ago 3
Obama has just made Afghanistan his war. Our soldiers' blood are now on his hands.
harvey101107 2 years ago 5
You do have a point. Is this the right way to go?
kakompo 2 years ago
No, I don't think a troop surge serves any purpose but to prolong a war we have nothing to gain from. Afghanistan has been in a civil war for well over 3 decades now. The Soviets tried and failed nation building here in the 80's, and we will fail now.
Our soldiers are dying for nothing.
harvey101107 2 years ago 2
He's made a lot of Neo-cons, Republicans and all very happy by his decision. I thought he was trying to find a way to bring them out of there. This war should have ended soon and not protracted rather.
kakompo 2 years ago 4
CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN. (So long as nothing really changes.) In this respect, he's no better than Bush.
keytoothed 2 years ago
The only people who benefit, are those who sell weapons
TheReasonWhyGuy 2 years ago 2
The more you think about it, the more realize that these are complex issues that also, people are basically good, and one can assume that odds are the new administration is working in the public interest. Also, politcs are just a headache. Why even bother getting so involved with it?
k2dart 2 years ago
If only the president had advisers like you we would be in a better spot. You need to run for president as you seem to be the only one speaking with any degree of intelligence and backing your positions with facts or at least with the weight of history.
econewpower 2 years ago 4
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Dude You are losing stock with me and your continued antics Congressman.
So out of context.
ARAKARABLUE 2 years ago
Thank you, Alan Grayson. 'Bout fucking time that we have some people in Washington that HAVE BALLS and WANT WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST TO ALL OF US, not just the goddamned 1% of us that thinks they're the hot shit.
EcrossH 2 years ago 8
I'm pretty sure there's a fallacy somewhere in there, Grayson, but nice nonetheless.
DJKatAnimated 2 years ago
ahhh what?
mynameisbobtoo 2 years ago
Obama is BUSH #2, PERIOD!
hotnickles87 2 years ago 2
Obama, you have sold us out.
adrya1983 2 years ago 4
It's great that Grayson has studied the teachings of these wise people from the past. I wish more of our leaders would do so.
moulingalette 2 years ago 2
Also... keep your friends close, your enemies closer... and,
Only overwhelming force can defeat the enemy. To defeat the overwhelming enemy, do not fight him.
voyeurdug 2 years ago
@voyeurdug Numbers alone confer no advantage.
ArnoldSlate 2 years ago 2
"And the fuedal lords will exploit the disarray and attack."
That was a prophecy.
seanboy80 2 years ago
No, thank YOU Rep. Grayson!
CousinoMacul 2 years ago 6
It's nice to know at least one of the pigs running this country has a brain.
bamboo4tameshigiri 2 years ago 4
90% of all casualties in these wars are INNOCENT CIVILIANS. WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
Taxpayers pay $1,000,000 for each soldier over there per year...the soldier gets about 25k....
For 25K for a US soldier and 12k for a terrorist, you get almost a million in profit. Tell me why they won't stop?
Royal Dutch Shell gets a firm hold over the PRICE of oil for windfall profits the Rothschilds get a 500 billion dollar a year opium trade.
Tell me again why they won't stop?
rungy07 2 years ago
most of the money goes to vehicles and guns and equipment not to the soldiers salary.
maxamojaxamo 2 years ago
hero
marniespeaks 2 years ago
Well said
readingXgilanator 2 years ago
Rep Grayson. Cut the funds to Iraq and Afghistan. We need to get out of the middle east.
captcrais101 2 years ago 5
the soviets spent 10 years in afghanistan and they did not win so how long are we going to continue to waste lives and money there.
those that fail to learn from histories mistakes are doomed to repeat them....
hellshade2 2 years ago 6