I was wondering if there was any chance of blocking a Horizontal longsword slash with your Rapier and circling around corresponding to the direction of the attack and at the same time thrusting towards the neck with the dagger would work in a duel? Would a soldier clad in heavy armor be able to maneuver quickly enough to stop a lethal stab?
@piepowa Thats understandable, its not just for newbs. Its pretty hard to tell whats going on in a video. This is why I have put slow-mo replays and text descriptions on most videos since.
The guy with the dagger, all he had to do was catch a strike on the hilt of the knife, and stab with his rapier, it sounds unplausable but its actually pretty easy provided you dont twist your wrist
@Antb356 Whilst it is possible, and would be typical practice against another rapier, it is highly dangerous against a longsword. The strength and leverage of the longsword makes not just for a powerful cut but also very quick re-direction of cuts. A dagger is quite easily decieved by the speed that the longsword can feint and re-direct cuts. Essentially in using the dagger this way you risk more double hits which should be avoided at all costs.
I would imagine that the rapier doesn't have the weight/leverage to parry a strong cut from a longsword, but I've never tried. What's your experience re: this?
@JohnRaptor A lot of experimentation has found that it can be done perfectly well providing you parry in the strong (forte) of the blade, which is where you should be parrying anyway. You lose out on the ability to use single time attacks/defences which rely on leverage, but parries can be made for the purpose of defence perfectly well even againt a very strong cut. Also appreciate that most rapiers weigh around 1.3kg, not much less than typical longswords (about 1.6)
Rapier and dagger is best when used with "Burst Attacks" countering with the rapier and closing the distance and finishing with the dagger to the heart.
@Lee94503 Depends largely on your opponent, a full length rapier can be unweildy for such things, and that middle distance between the rapier lunge and closing for the dagger is where you are vulnerable to the leverage and power of the rapier. Best use of a rapier against longsword is to avoid contact and use the reach and disengage to strike safely on open lines. The dagger is of course extremely useful as well and presents some major issues for the longswordsman who would attempt to close.
Awesome...could somoeone tell me the gear their wearing? I would love to purchase for training purposes. I see a fencing mask, shin guards, elbow, etc. But what bout theupperbody? What is being used for protection?
@vega89191 Other than what you pointed out they are wearing what looks like motorcycle gloves. I could be mistaken of course. Other people use lacrosse gloves or the equivalent. It's a matter of preference really. It also looks like these guys are using light gambesons. Don't quote me, as I've never had a gambeson. But that's the fairly standard kit. Hopefully Nikos3000 will jump in if I missed anything. And get yourself a cup. Accidents do happen.
@vega89191 This video is quite old, we have upgraded much of that now. We use PBT fencing coaches jackets, police riot elbow/forearm, or the more flexible ice hockey/lacrosse types. Gloves are police riot for rapier, lacrosse goalie for longsword. Leg guards are brushcutter guards, Some of our members also wear a padded undershirt from ice hockey. Tae Kwon do shoes and Leon Paul coaching or club masks with our own custom back of the head protector.
I've always wanted to see how a rapier+dagger does against a longsword and large shield (musketeer vs viking basically). Could you try that out? Both types of shields too, center grip and strap (center grip was more common in history, strap is more common in hollywood), if you could.
nice fight, the weaker side of the rapier guy is the left hand, the dagger side, if somehow the LS guy can position himself toward the opponents left side and deliver blows from there, even a one-handed strike to gain range, the "ruffian" whould have a bad time parrying with the knife. Great display..idd wish i could train with you guys..or at least idd like to have a wester swordmanship school in my country, i have only smug faces kendo guys
@MrScijin It is used a hell of a lot actually, its just different to a typical rapier and dagger fight. Being a light dagger facing a longsword with a lot of strength and leverage, you have to be more cautious in the way you use it, it can only parry certain strikes. But most important of all, the very threat of it prevents a lot of closing from the longswordsman, which you see a lot in this fight, and that is crucial.
great video! I think it's a bit better without music, just the sound of the steel makes it suspenseful and cool. I love fencing, I wish people did more styles where I live so I could learn a variety. My dad, my sister and I do our own version of rapier; we just put an epee blade on a saber hilt, both cut and thrust. On target (including the face) thrusts count for 7 "points," cuts and off target thrusts count for 1 point. We play to 8. Try it some time!
@Silk7301 Only the tip, if the longsword connected with the last foot of the blade there is some chance it could break, but then nobody should be parrying with that part of the sword anyway. Countless tests have been made striking a rapier with a full power cut, you'd be amazed how strong they are, and museum examples are typically much broader at the ricasso and forte than reproductiions.
@ReichEnemy The dagger certainly makes a difference, but then its not exactly unreasonable, the longsword uses both hands too. Also, check out my more recent video of single rapier against longsword, its about an even fight.
@ReichEnemy thats the thing about rapiers mate they come into their own when combined it a dagger.. it also depends on the skill of the swordsman but the dagger gives the rapier user a huge advantage thats why the rapier is the most advanced sword ever made... everyone would like it to be a katana... ive trained with both for the last 20 years and lemme tell you the rapier is the daddy
@CuCulainn1 well, not necessarily. There are a lot of factors that go into swords. A katana in design is a very balanced weapon, durable, good cutting power, decent weight. A rapier is light and quick in the right hands very accurate, but they both come from different regions of the world and have different fighting styles developed around them. The rapier wasn't used against armored opponents while the katana was. You have to take all aspects of the weapon into account here.
@metalrocko1 It is simply not intended to face armour, it is for civlian fighting predominately. Additionally, the usage of armour was continually decreasing during the rapiers period. You have to appreciate that few swords do well against the 'plate' armour most associate with the medieval and early renaissance period, they are simply not the best tool for the job. The rapier primarily for civilian self defence, civil disturbances and duels, all unarmoured affairs.
@mlim23 Well no, there are very many ways it could potentially be used. This was the first ever time we tried this combination whilst both of us were very tired from a long session, and in that regard I would say its a very accurate representation, of two tired fencers, who are wary of eachothers style.
I have faced many longsworders with rapier, most just use their normal longsword style and get demolished, simple fact is you always have to adapt to the opponent's weapon and style.
@Nikos3000 I'm not a combatant (although I would LOVE to learn to fight with a short sword), but I think both combatants here had their own advantage. the dagger/rapier just didn't have the same reach as the longsword, and at the same time, the longsword had to keep in check both blades from the enemy. Anyway, that's just what I see from an untrained eye, so correct me if I'm wrong. :)
@Mikraken23 You should get started, find a club or start a study group. Certainly both weapons have their own advantages. The rapier has greater reach than the longsword, but the longsword has greater leverage, hence why the rapierist tries to avoid blade contact. The longswordsman has to get past the point of the rapier to strike, at which point the cut is wickedly effective, but too close and the dagger is used. Fighting rapier and dagger with longsword is not at all easy.
@spinathasser1 The Rapier is from Darkwood Amoury (US), the longsword an Albion Leichtenauer, (though we more commonly use the Meyer model now). These are some of if not the finest training weapons of their type currently available, for cheaper but still decent rapiers look to the Hanwei practical 43", for cheaper longswords, your best going for Knight Shop synthetic models.
@Nikos3000 thanks a lot for your fast answer. i'm in a german fencing school and mostly of our weapons are from pavel moc from Czech Republic, but some of us use Albion too. the weapons form Pavel are a bit cheaper but their quality is very good too.
@spinathasser1 No problem, which school? and do you go to the Dreyn event in Vienna?
We have used some Pavel moc stuff, its sturdy, though many of it is a bit stiff for safe thrusting, which is why we moved from the Albion Leictenauer to Meyer. Pavel Marek (not be to confused with Moc) also make good rapiers, I have one of theirs.
@Nikos3000 i go to the gladiatores school in munich, but only since 4 months so i never had a rapier in my hands, just german longswords so i dont go to the event in vienna, but i hope you make some good vids again? youre right, they are mostly not very flexible, but we dont make sparring fights so they are good enough for our requirements. the best sword of moc i had in my hands is the "Dürer" its in comparison with the others VERY flexible^^
@spinathasser1 Excellent, and I surely will take more videos at Dreyn this year, will be six of of there, and we are competing in the group sabre tournament. Yes Pavel do make some flexible models, I think its called the 'Howe' or tournament blade, somthing like that, and is designed for safe thrusting, really good swords.
However, if you are not sparring with them, then any of the Pavel range is excellent.
@Fangtorn Yes it is unfortunate that its certainly not easy to see exactly whats going on. This is why all my later videos have slow motion re-plays of strikes and explanations. From memory though, the longsworder got about two strikes here (roughly), to about 6 for the rapier.
long swords arent used for fencing their for hacking limbs and splintering shields, long swords are battle weapons, rapiers are gentlemenly weapons used for settleing disagreements =)
@CradleOfBodom17 Then evidently you haven't seen the vast array of longsword fencing manuals that exist. Longsword fencing was ever bit as technical as rapier. It was also commonly taught for civilian self defence and civil dispute (unarmoured).
Rapiers are certainly not gentlemanly weapons, they are for self defence, they settled disputes the same as any popular sword in their day did. In fact, the English considered the rapiers a brutish and ruffians weapon.
@Nikos3000 I don't know if was in this way in England, but in Spain, the rapier was in the way that said cladleofbodom. Gentenmenly weapons used in civil context, not in war context. The weapon considered for brutish and ruffians in Spain was pocketknife. Big pocketkinfes almost swords. greetings.
@Epopteya In England the rapier was used by men of many classes, not just gentleman, anyone from a shop assistant to a butcher. The rapier certainly saw some usage in war also, though was clearly not perfectly suited to that task.
Rapiers were commonly seen used in civilian self defence, brawls and quarrels, street fights, as well as the stereotypical duels.
@Nikos3000 OK, thank you Nikos. But, even in our literature is reflected by the fact that low-status people do not normally fight with rapier, and this is due to economic issues, and a sword was much more expensive than a knife. I do not know from where the term rapier may be in Spanish, perhaps?. In Spanish rapier = ropera, ie the sword used to fight "ropa" (clothes) with no armor.
@Nikos3000 Obviously anyone with money could afford to have a rapier, and these usually were the gentlemen ... but any rich man could buy one. In Spain the fact coincided mostly because anyone with a bit of money preferred to purchase titles of nobility, and then the sword:)
@Nikos3000 anyway, I think the historical period is also a fact influential in analyzing the use Rapier. Once established firearms, armies began to stop using amadura progressively when the rapier was then found his best opportunity to be used in war.
@Nikos3000 Also be aware that I speak of the history of weapons from the Spanish point of view, which, as in many other fields of history, is a world apart. For example, when the rest of Europe is replaced the rapier by little sword (I don't know the exactly word in english, in spanish is 'espadín') in Spain is still carrying roperas. Or for example the French treated fencing that showed an entire chapter for instruction in how to fight a Spanish swordsman (or Spanish style).
Looks like an arming sword to me.. ach, i suppose you people refer to scottish variants of greatswords as claymores aswell.. which is why people annoy the fuck out of me, since these silly schools teach poor wordage. Umbrella terms are retarded, especially when they are wrong.
@Pawnbroker00 It might look like an elephant to you. Doesn't alter the fact that it isn't. The sword has a long hilt, long blade and is modelled on a German langeschwert and cannot be realistically used in one hand. Your comments on the claymore are funny but I'm sure the irony is wasted on you.
@combatcommand Your definition is wrong. A longsword is a cruciform sword with long hilt suitable for use in two hands, especially with regards to this weapon being used. You might be enthusiatic but you are not correct. I teach 14th-16th century Renassiance fencing from the German Fechtbücher, my specialism is the longsword.
@combatcommand I teach Renassiance fencing from the German Fechtbücher. These manuals are specifically from 1390-1570. So, as I said, that is exactly what I teach. Your definition if middleages is simply wrong. Please do some research before you spout rubbish.
longsword is an uberella term for cruciform swords of a certain lenght, they can be one-handed, two-handed, or bastards. there was no mass production or standards back then and therefore it varied a lot, the best way to classify european swords is with the oakshott typology.
Trying to test a longsword against a rapier in a "fencing" setting is not very educational. A longsword is not designed for fencing and neither is the main gauche. The rapier is probably the deadliest hand to hand weapon in history based on speed, reach, lethality and armor penetration. That is why it is the last hand to hand weapon developed in the west.
@needparalegal Fencing - the art of defending oneself, the use of fencing masks is purely for safety, this is not a wired sport bout. This is representing a civiian unarmed fight between the two weapons, which there are numerous accounts of historically.
Neither was the rapier the last hand-to-hand weapon developed, being phased out around 1650-60 in most countries, several sword types followed it, including smallsword and sabre, but pointing outs its lethality is certainly useful.
@needparalegal - I'm not too sure about it being the deadliest hand to hand weapon in history. It was only very short lived and was primarily a civilian weapon, and even then there are several accounts of duelists receiving what would otherwise be lethal thrusts from another weapon (a rapier is for thrusting, after all) and simply walking away from the fight. Silver had a point when it came to rapiers and their limited practical use. Wait.. am I being trolled?
@needparalegal Only deadly if used correctly. A heavier cut and thrust sword can build enough momentum to knock the rapier away very easily- meaning that it is difficult to defend against through direct opposition. ...of course an experienced fencer would know better than to directly oppose a heavier weapon
@Spiritrunner6 i almost agree..but the rapier is very light and flexible and u cannot knock it out of the way just like that, i think you have better chances to knock off another longsword. if you use an espadon or a zweihander..sure you can knock away pretty much everything, but if you miss the cut, you wont have time to recover
what does the term ahf stand for and i love the woodin long sword the most i only wish it would be allowed in kendo if you having any information reguarding the long sword being allowed in kendo
would you share it with my that would be most helpful thanks
@DarkBlaze1000 AHF is our school, the Academy of Historical Fencing, this is an old video, most of my others have the logo and full name at the start. I am not sure what you mean by longsword being allowed in kendo? Kendo is a very ritualistic sport dealing exlusively with the katana, the Japanese longsword, they would have no need or desire to use European weapons.
is there a rule against using the figure 8 pattern if charging with the long sword? i bet there is. because the other dude could not penetrate the swirling wall of steel !
@acerb45666555 No rule but using any device with an obvious tempo like a figure of eight makes it easy for a good rapierist to thrust into the many openings you create. It is very important to keep the point on line, more so when fencing against the rapier.
@th7dude ........but the onslaught would be so ferocious that the opponent would have no choice but to back up and lose coordination as they frantically tried to block the attack! im thinking like a viking would think! they fought like rabid wolves! and even if fencing is tamer stuff, you can still put on some good pressure to shatter the foes concentration! make him sweat!
Swetnam says the feet should be together - the heel of the right almost touching the big toe joint of the left. This is to avoid getting hit in the front leg by the opponent's weapon.
Swetnam says the feet should be together - the heel of the right almost touching the big toe joint of the left. This is to avoid getting hit in the front leg by the opponent's weapon.
Joseph Swetnam says you should keep your right heel almost attached to your left foot's big toe joint when in your on guard stance. This is to keep your legs as small a target as possible. Therefore, at least for his system, the on guard footwork for the rapierist would appear to be incorrect... This is just Swetnam though.
@kozushi I dont know who 'swetham' is but after engaging in many open reenactments (ie not staged fights but blows not thrown hard enough to do real damage) in situations ranging from one on one to all out brigade vs brigade combat. I also do other martial arts and work in the security industry, so i put the concepts to the test in real situtions.
I find side on to be the best option. as for closing your stance as you suggest here, i advise to spread your stance in a defensive posture.
@ashleyjamesdoran by spreading your feet you make it harder to be pushed over.
watch someone who does any martial art- boxing, karate, anything....they will all tell you, wide stance for defense, closed stance for quick attacks (ie cat stance in karate.)
@kozushi That is indeed Swetnam. I practice predominately Capo Ferro, whereby the stance is typically wide, in fact, wider than I am normally using here, I have brought my feet slightly closer together for quicker widedrawl against the longsword.
Neither Swetnam or Capo Ferro are correct or incorrect, they are merely different ways of which you must decide works best for you.
@todorokusho ..i wonder how far they can go? cant he just knock the others dudes legs from under him? i think they go as far as safely possible! even using grappling and wrestling moves as in the manuals! anything to get the opponent on his knees in defeat!..........(of course, that would be only for the big tournaments)........i wont call them "Fencing shows"! ....Tournaments sounds more fitting!
I think he knows that. The longsword needs to use the superior leverage once past the point. Just watch out for the dagger. I know because I'm the guy with the longsword.
@solitajre222 I haven't ever heard that. Within the Italian rapier manuals of which most people study it is merely called Pugnale, which directly translates to dagger.
@maarhoefe Simply not the case, just look at the stats of the two, the rapier weighs in at 1.2kg, the longsword 1.5kg, but the longsword has both hands on and therefore more leverage and speed in many actions. The idea that the longsword is slow is a myth. Also, the leverage of the longsword makes it difficult to bind or close with rapier or dagger on many occasions, as they can be beaten through.
@Nikos3000 still it is slower then rapier and dagger i can know becus i use both and the rapier is way faster especially with the dagger the longsword is slower then the rapier thats a fact
@joeskelly123 The longsword is an Albion Liechtenauer, though we have since changed to using the Meyer model and Hanwei Tinkers, as they are safer, in terms of flex in the thrust and blunt trauma impacts.
There are plenty of historical accounts of the two meeting, coroners reports show that the weapons are very much a match for eachother, the quality of the fighter being the most important factor.
Indeed the dagger makes things easier for the rapierist, as to be expected. But no, the longsword should never be discounted, we study both, the longsword is a much more versatile weapon, the rapier much more specialist, intended for exactly this, a one on one unarmoured fight on even ground.
Not at all, most longsword fencing treatise teach unarmoured combat. There was also plenty of carry over period wise, the longsword was still is use for most of the rapier period.
They each have their strengths and weaknesses, equal opponents will be about matched as a rule. There is a common misconception that longswords are really heavy, in reality, their weight is on average only 200-300 grams more than a rapier, but with a second hand for leverage.
Its ok, its what most people think :-) Really just movie and media misconcenptions.
In essense no it wouldn't be, but it depends how much armour we are talking about and what is classified as a rapier. By the rapier period full armour was rarely worn, only part armours, but rapier like weapons carried in battle were normally shorter and broader bladed.
The rapier as seen here is primarily a means of self defence in civilian life and would therefore never expect to face an armoured foe.
Mmh...I dunno about the rapier itself being the best. Now, if that'd have been a cutlass, then hell yes it would've ripped shit up. But I'd be more fond of the main gauche he's got in the other hand
The bout seemed to be almost completely within the rapier's lunge distance, which begs the question: why didn't he LUNGE? Too much dancing up and poking. Fight should have been over in seconds. As Inigo Montoya said, "Study your Agrippa!" There is finally an english translation...
Much of it is in lunge distance yes, as that is the measure you should fight in. There are lunges there, and with good flex, but not many, why? Because the rules change when fighting a longsword, blade domination is almost completely impossible due to their leverage.
With this in mind, a displaced lunge by the leverage of a longsword will leave you like a rabbit in the spotlight, fighting mismatched weapons can change the dynamic a lot.
Blade domination would be impossible, and a poorly timed lunge would leave the Mr. Longsword with a small hole in the gut and Mr. Rapier with a large hole in the head... But the rapier has speed and agility. Also, both swords have a similar overall length, the smaller hllt on the rapier gives it a greater perportion of blade. With the one-handed grip and lunge it has greater range. did not seem that he took advantage of these advantages. Close range played to the longswords strengths. Fun clip.
There are a number of strikes at distance, but as I said, lunging against a longsword can be very dangerous, as once displaced you are very vulverable, and the dagger cannot parry many of the longsword attacks.
In terms of agility, yes, that is indeed the way to beat a longsword, never being engaged and using the disengage speed to strike on open lines, but both fighters were exhausted from two hours of sparring, as I have mentioned before on here, see my more recent single rapier v longsword.
That clip is more what I was thinking of...Also illustrates some of the dangers you pointed out. Really great posts. Next time I am at the Salle I will have to have a longsword enthusiast suit up. I have spent too much time over the last two days thinking about how to fight them not to! Thanks for the conversation.
Interesting, however, these guys need to work on their movements a little more! You Tube "the Loyal Order of the Sword"...those guys are intense with rapiers!!!
and dedicating to a eastern art without paying a little respect (even denigrating it) or having a hint atleast of our martial past..its a sign of hypocrisy. and its even against to the foundation of the japanese art i practice wich teaches respect and improvement with an open mind. sry ..i forgot myself talking..i mean writing :))
I agree with you whole heartedly, personally the western martial arts interest me far more simply because they are our martial heritage, but in terms of fighting, it is so important to face a multitude of opponents, styles and weapons, hence why I think many katana users would come undone against a rapier, just as many longsword users do. Most people still do not realise the huge detail and sophistication of western swordsmanship, but its spreading at a good rate.
that can improove one's performance in both ways. an open mind. i hate the fact that some eastern (japanese mostly) matial artist think that western style is just some barbarian thing, in which u need just a thick strong arm to lift the blade and swing it hard. after i showed them some clips with some german longsword thechniques..well that kinda tossed their pride to the floor, and started to pay more attention to their origins, as we are in fact europeans..
well i'll tell you what happened in my case, not with rapier though. it was bokken vs a wood longsword (which i crafted myself..with an extended hilt). a buddy of mine had the bokken and i took the longsword. he was surprised by the reverse cuts and combinations that flow from that. he was used only to take in consideration only one cutting edge. it was 3-1 for me. those who practice eastern marital arts are well disciplined..but i think its improtant to also have an idea of western martial arts
the rapier is fast, and stabbing comes quickly, but dont be fooled, longsword is also precise and a strong swing whould toss the rapier aside making an window of opportunity. against an armored foe, a longsword whould be better for it has the weight that can dent..the armor i guess, stabbing whould deal some damage if enough force is put into it. rapiers whould just scratch. actually for plate i think one needs a greatsword, but the best option is a mace , or an axe. thats just me :D
That is what I am thinking, rapiers don't look to be made for armor. I would like to see a rapier vs katana, they are both largely used for unarmored targets. I would love to see the rapier win that one to anger all the anime people.
hmm dont like anime ..but i do practice kendo . so i favor the katana, but the rapier whould have some advantage. anyway i dont have my mind lock on the japanese discipline. im open to all kinds of arts if it implies 2 handed blades :D..the thing i love about the longsword..is that it offers the possibility to make reverse in various combinations.
Rapier against Katana is something we intend to do shortly, but all the katana trained people I know also do western martial arts, so it would not be an accurate representation of one distinct style against another, but we are getting to it.
Actually a strong swing from a longsword is parried perfectly well providing you parry with the correct part of the blade, as you should. You would not cut with a longsword against armour, but halfsword, (one hand on the blade), and grapple and thrust, rapiers are not remotely intended for armoured combat and would not be good for it.
In fact, swords generally have rarely been the primary weapon of war, that role is mostly played by various forms of polearms and also blunt trauma instruments.
I am no expert on dueling, but I would say in a 1v1 duel the rapier might have an advantage. But for actual war the longsword is the better choice, especially when you take armor into account.
Very much so, the Rapier is purposely made for civilian unarmoured combat, which is where it excels, whereas the longsword is a much more general purpose universal weapon. The rapier does indeed suck against armour, it really is a civilian weapon only.
Very much depends on the swordsmen, generally we find that they are a rough match, but if anything,the rapier has a slight advantage, typically as longswordsman are so surprised by its mechanics, and no, longsword does not have longer reach, rapiers typically have around 42-43" blades as opposed to 34-38 for longswords
there is no superior weapon. One is for hacking and the other is for cutting, end of story. Its the techniques that make the swordsman not the type of weapon.
Yeh, there is some really good armoured combat in the Liechtenauer lineage stuff, it obviously looks very different to the unarmoured practice you see in our videos of longsword though.
Although rapier is my main specialism is rapier I also do longsword from Liechtenauer sources such as Ringeck and Meyer, I have always found it to be excellent.
I was wondering if there was any chance of blocking a Horizontal longsword slash with your Rapier and circling around corresponding to the direction of the attack and at the same time thrusting towards the neck with the dagger would work in a duel? Would a soldier clad in heavy armor be able to maneuver quickly enough to stop a lethal stab?
Lightdarkness07 2 weeks ago
I need someone to yell, "YOU DIED!!!!" just so a sword-noob (me) can tell who won.
piepowa 4 weeks ago
@piepowa Thats understandable, its not just for newbs. Its pretty hard to tell whats going on in a video. This is why I have put slow-mo replays and text descriptions on most videos since.
Nikos3000 4 weeks ago
at 2:16 did he block the longsword with his dagger? cool stuff!
enantiomer2000 1 month ago
The guy with the dagger, all he had to do was catch a strike on the hilt of the knife, and stab with his rapier, it sounds unplausable but its actually pretty easy provided you dont twist your wrist
Antb356 3 months ago
@Antb356 Whilst it is possible, and would be typical practice against another rapier, it is highly dangerous against a longsword. The strength and leverage of the longsword makes not just for a powerful cut but also very quick re-direction of cuts. A dagger is quite easily decieved by the speed that the longsword can feint and re-direct cuts. Essentially in using the dagger this way you risk more double hits which should be avoided at all costs.
Nikos3000 3 months ago
I would imagine that the rapier doesn't have the weight/leverage to parry a strong cut from a longsword, but I've never tried. What's your experience re: this?
JohnRaptor 4 months ago
@JohnRaptor A lot of experimentation has found that it can be done perfectly well providing you parry in the strong (forte) of the blade, which is where you should be parrying anyway. You lose out on the ability to use single time attacks/defences which rely on leverage, but parries can be made for the purpose of defence perfectly well even againt a very strong cut. Also appreciate that most rapiers weigh around 1.3kg, not much less than typical longswords (about 1.6)
Nikos3000 3 months ago
Rapier and dagger is best when used with "Burst Attacks" countering with the rapier and closing the distance and finishing with the dagger to the heart.
Lee94503 5 months ago
@Lee94503 Depends largely on your opponent, a full length rapier can be unweildy for such things, and that middle distance between the rapier lunge and closing for the dagger is where you are vulnerable to the leverage and power of the rapier. Best use of a rapier against longsword is to avoid contact and use the reach and disengage to strike safely on open lines. The dagger is of course extremely useful as well and presents some major issues for the longswordsman who would attempt to close.
Nikos3000 5 months ago
Awesome...could somoeone tell me the gear their wearing? I would love to purchase for training purposes. I see a fencing mask, shin guards, elbow, etc. But what bout theupperbody? What is being used for protection?
vega89191 5 months ago
@vega89191 Other than what you pointed out they are wearing what looks like motorcycle gloves. I could be mistaken of course. Other people use lacrosse gloves or the equivalent. It's a matter of preference really. It also looks like these guys are using light gambesons. Don't quote me, as I've never had a gambeson. But that's the fairly standard kit. Hopefully Nikos3000 will jump in if I missed anything. And get yourself a cup. Accidents do happen.
newschoololdschool 5 months ago
@vega89191 This video is quite old, we have upgraded much of that now. We use PBT fencing coaches jackets, police riot elbow/forearm, or the more flexible ice hockey/lacrosse types. Gloves are police riot for rapier, lacrosse goalie for longsword. Leg guards are brushcutter guards, Some of our members also wear a padded undershirt from ice hockey. Tae Kwon do shoes and Leon Paul coaching or club masks with our own custom back of the head protector.
Nikos3000 5 months ago
i like 0:58 when the guy uses the knife and the guys like fuck that shit
inutiasha 5 months ago
I've always wanted to see how a rapier+dagger does against a longsword and large shield (musketeer vs viking basically). Could you try that out? Both types of shields too, center grip and strap (center grip was more common in history, strap is more common in hollywood), if you could.
demomanchaos 6 months ago
Anyone here knows where such an armor can be bought?
I have searched the web but there are no decent practice armors out there!!!
farhadpersian 6 months ago
this reminds me of the final fight in RobRoy for some reason
1x93cm 7 months ago
western*
11kman1 7 months ago
nice fight, the weaker side of the rapier guy is the left hand, the dagger side, if somehow the LS guy can position himself toward the opponents left side and deliver blows from there, even a one-handed strike to gain range, the "ruffian" whould have a bad time parrying with the knife. Great display..idd wish i could train with you guys..or at least idd like to have a wester swordmanship school in my country, i have only smug faces kendo guys
11kman1 7 months ago
Very enjoyable to watch, thanks for uploading.
AdamtheAsh 8 months ago
Who's the creeper in the back breathing heavily?
hayleysfinest 8 months ago
The guy didn't use the dagger enough in this fight.
MrScijin 8 months ago
@MrScijin It is used a hell of a lot actually, its just different to a typical rapier and dagger fight. Being a light dagger facing a longsword with a lot of strength and leverage, you have to be more cautious in the way you use it, it can only parry certain strikes. But most important of all, the very threat of it prevents a lot of closing from the longswordsman, which you see a lot in this fight, and that is crucial.
Nikos3000 8 months ago
Thumbs up if you're here from RuneScape
TheBestOne98 8 months ago
You guys rule. I love your channel and I'm inspired by your dedication.
nextredlight1251 8 months ago
that rapier dagger combo is just too deadly. I would hate to go up against that without some armor.
FlankerVT 8 months ago
I'm surprised the man with the longsword did as well as he did.......
Darthbelal 9 months ago
i givet this ont to the rapier
johnnyhorton2 9 months ago
I think that the guy with sword is too static - no side moving - but I dont know rapier techniques.
bartoldo666 9 months ago
great video! I think it's a bit better without music, just the sound of the steel makes it suspenseful and cool. I love fencing, I wish people did more styles where I live so I could learn a variety. My dad, my sister and I do our own version of rapier; we just put an epee blade on a saber hilt, both cut and thrust. On target (including the face) thrusts count for 7 "points," cuts and off target thrusts count for 1 point. We play to 8. Try it some time!
SigmundSauer 11 months ago
I'm not well versed in swords but I would have thought that you'd be afraid of breaking the rapier against the longsword. Just a wonder.
Silk7301 11 months ago
@Silk7301 Only the tip, if the longsword connected with the last foot of the blade there is some chance it could break, but then nobody should be parrying with that part of the sword anyway. Countless tests have been made striking a rapier with a full power cut, you'd be amazed how strong they are, and museum examples are typically much broader at the ricasso and forte than reproductiions.
Nikos3000 11 months ago 2
@Nikos3000 i find that interesting. Thanks for the info. I love swords but i'm a complete noob when it comes to technicalities and actual sword play.
Silk7301 11 months ago
@Silk7301 hi im well versed in swords trust me the rapier wont break no matter how hard you hit it
CuCulainn1 8 months ago
You can't mix up to different weapons with different techniques...
mrBooneish 11 months ago
@mrBooneish Why on earth not? It happened plenty often enough historically.
Nikos3000 11 months ago 12
@Nikos3000 and where can I research that!
nujabes7 7 months ago
@mrBooneish This is a pretty ignorant comment for two reasons:
1. as has been mentioned, it happened in reality in the past, as the longsword and rapier were contemporaries of one another for a considerable time
2. you're watching it right now.
WhiteCavendish 8 months ago
@mrBooneish yes, but is good to think in the real life´s fight from the past, maybe in the battleground :)
2locma 7 months ago
@mrBooneish actually there are quite a few examples of this sort of fight happening. the two blades did coexist during the crawl of history.
SgtSplatter782 6 months ago
The trick is to not get tied up with the rapier cuz that means gettin in close in striking distance of the daggar.
Spankydaham924 11 months ago
Looks like a defender and a chaotic longsword. l0l
LeviTubeAge 11 months ago
If it wasn't for the dagger, longsword would win.
ReichEnemy 1 year ago
@ReichEnemy The dagger certainly makes a difference, but then its not exactly unreasonable, the longsword uses both hands too. Also, check out my more recent video of single rapier against longsword, its about an even fight.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
@ReichEnemy That'd be the advantage of a one handed weapon. Ability to have an off hand weapon.
GameMaster255 1 year ago
@ReichEnemy thats the thing about rapiers mate they come into their own when combined it a dagger.. it also depends on the skill of the swordsman but the dagger gives the rapier user a huge advantage thats why the rapier is the most advanced sword ever made... everyone would like it to be a katana... ive trained with both for the last 20 years and lemme tell you the rapier is the daddy
CuCulainn1 8 months ago
@CuCulainn1 well, not necessarily. There are a lot of factors that go into swords. A katana in design is a very balanced weapon, durable, good cutting power, decent weight. A rapier is light and quick in the right hands very accurate, but they both come from different regions of the world and have different fighting styles developed around them. The rapier wasn't used against armored opponents while the katana was. You have to take all aspects of the weapon into account here.
hayleysfinest 8 months ago
@CuCulainn1 not to doubt your experience, of course. I mean no disrespect.
hayleysfinest 8 months ago
can someone tell me how well a rapier does against armour
metalrocko1 1 year ago
@metalrocko1 It is simply not intended to face armour, it is for civlian fighting predominately. Additionally, the usage of armour was continually decreasing during the rapiers period. You have to appreciate that few swords do well against the 'plate' armour most associate with the medieval and early renaissance period, they are simply not the best tool for the job. The rapier primarily for civilian self defence, civil disturbances and duels, all unarmoured affairs.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
I dont get this fight doesnt the guy using the longsword know using a defender gives him better accuracy and strength bonus?
shawn010101010 1 year ago
@shawn010101010 That's a steel defender though, it fails. RuneScape ftw lol.
ReichEnemy 1 year ago
@ReichEnemy lmao
shawn010101010 1 year ago
0:58 Longsword: nice block, in a real duel from the position i would've sent a foot into his groin or ribs.
Caw14 1 year ago
just saying>.> if it were real the longsword would be used why differently..
mlim23 1 year ago
@mlim23 Well no, there are very many ways it could potentially be used. This was the first ever time we tried this combination whilst both of us were very tired from a long session, and in that regard I would say its a very accurate representation, of two tired fencers, who are wary of eachothers style.
I have faced many longsworders with rapier, most just use their normal longsword style and get demolished, simple fact is you always have to adapt to the opponent's weapon and style.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
@Nikos3000 I'm not a combatant (although I would LOVE to learn to fight with a short sword), but I think both combatants here had their own advantage. the dagger/rapier just didn't have the same reach as the longsword, and at the same time, the longsword had to keep in check both blades from the enemy. Anyway, that's just what I see from an untrained eye, so correct me if I'm wrong. :)
Mikraken23 1 year ago
@Mikraken23 You should get started, find a club or start a study group. Certainly both weapons have their own advantages. The rapier has greater reach than the longsword, but the longsword has greater leverage, hence why the rapierist tries to avoid blade contact. The longswordsman has to get past the point of the rapier to strike, at which point the cut is wickedly effective, but too close and the dagger is used. Fighting rapier and dagger with longsword is not at all easy.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
could you please tell me which weapens you use? i mean where you got it from.
thanks
spinathasser1 1 year ago
@spinathasser1 The Rapier is from Darkwood Amoury (US), the longsword an Albion Leichtenauer, (though we more commonly use the Meyer model now). These are some of if not the finest training weapons of their type currently available, for cheaper but still decent rapiers look to the Hanwei practical 43", for cheaper longswords, your best going for Knight Shop synthetic models.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
@Nikos3000 thanks a lot for your fast answer. i'm in a german fencing school and mostly of our weapons are from pavel moc from Czech Republic, but some of us use Albion too. the weapons form Pavel are a bit cheaper but their quality is very good too.
spinathasser1 1 year ago
@spinathasser1 No problem, which school? and do you go to the Dreyn event in Vienna?
We have used some Pavel moc stuff, its sturdy, though many of it is a bit stiff for safe thrusting, which is why we moved from the Albion Leictenauer to Meyer. Pavel Marek (not be to confused with Moc) also make good rapiers, I have one of theirs.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
Comment removed
spinathasser1 1 year ago
@Nikos3000 i go to the gladiatores school in munich, but only since 4 months so i never had a rapier in my hands, just german longswords so i dont go to the event in vienna, but i hope you make some good vids again? youre right, they are mostly not very flexible, but we dont make sparring fights so they are good enough for our requirements. the best sword of moc i had in my hands is the "Dürer" its in comparison with the others VERY flexible^^
spinathasser1 1 year ago
@spinathasser1 Excellent, and I surely will take more videos at Dreyn this year, will be six of of there, and we are competing in the group sabre tournament. Yes Pavel do make some flexible models, I think its called the 'Howe' or tournament blade, somthing like that, and is designed for safe thrusting, really good swords.
However, if you are not sparring with them, then any of the Pavel range is excellent.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
I honestly can't tell who won and who lost.
Fangtorn 1 year ago
@Fangtorn Yes it is unfortunate that its certainly not easy to see exactly whats going on. This is why all my later videos have slow motion re-plays of strikes and explanations. From memory though, the longsworder got about two strikes here (roughly), to about 6 for the rapier.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
@Fangtorn Isn't that another good quality about the rapier?..
mabscape 1 year ago
ooooh, nice cut by longswordsman at 0:39 :)
stringguynotfungi 1 year ago
you are both afraid of getting hit, to actualy hit the other. boring match
alucardXlll 1 year ago
@alucardXlll If you train with swords a lot, you learn to not want to get hit.
FaceMeetsFloor 1 year ago
Nice fight - enjoyed watching it every much! Nice to see the 2 different styles playing with each other.
magister9904 1 year ago
long swords arent used for fencing their for hacking limbs and splintering shields, long swords are battle weapons, rapiers are gentlemenly weapons used for settleing disagreements =)
CradleOfBodom17 1 year ago
@CradleOfBodom17 Then evidently you haven't seen the vast array of longsword fencing manuals that exist. Longsword fencing was ever bit as technical as rapier. It was also commonly taught for civilian self defence and civil dispute (unarmoured).
Rapiers are certainly not gentlemanly weapons, they are for self defence, they settled disputes the same as any popular sword in their day did. In fact, the English considered the rapiers a brutish and ruffians weapon.
Nikos3000 1 year ago 13
@Nikos3000 I don't know if was in this way in England, but in Spain, the rapier was in the way that said cladleofbodom. Gentenmenly weapons used in civil context, not in war context. The weapon considered for brutish and ruffians in Spain was pocketknife. Big pocketkinfes almost swords. greetings.
Epopteya 1 year ago
@Epopteya In England the rapier was used by men of many classes, not just gentleman, anyone from a shop assistant to a butcher. The rapier certainly saw some usage in war also, though was clearly not perfectly suited to that task.
Rapiers were commonly seen used in civilian self defence, brawls and quarrels, street fights, as well as the stereotypical duels.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
@Nikos3000 OK, thank you Nikos. But, even in our literature is reflected by the fact that low-status people do not normally fight with rapier, and this is due to economic issues, and a sword was much more expensive than a knife. I do not know from where the term rapier may be in Spanish, perhaps?. In Spanish rapier = ropera, ie the sword used to fight "ropa" (clothes) with no armor.
Epopteya 1 year ago
@Nikos3000 Obviously anyone with money could afford to have a rapier, and these usually were the gentlemen ... but any rich man could buy one. In Spain the fact coincided mostly because anyone with a bit of money preferred to purchase titles of nobility, and then the sword:)
Epopteya 1 year ago
@Nikos3000 anyway, I think the historical period is also a fact influential in analyzing the use Rapier. Once established firearms, armies began to stop using amadura progressively when the rapier was then found his best opportunity to be used in war.
Epopteya 1 year ago
@Nikos3000 Also be aware that I speak of the history of weapons from the Spanish point of view, which, as in many other fields of history, is a world apart. For example, when the rest of Europe is replaced the rapier by little sword (I don't know the exactly word in english, in spanish is 'espadín') in Spain is still carrying roperas. Or for example the French treated fencing that showed an entire chapter for instruction in how to fight a Spanish swordsman (or Spanish style).
Epopteya 1 year ago
@CradleOfBodom17 i think there both cool >.>
firehotbanana 1 year ago
Looks like an arming sword to me.. ach, i suppose you people refer to scottish variants of greatswords as claymores aswell.. which is why people annoy the fuck out of me, since these silly schools teach poor wordage. Umbrella terms are retarded, especially when they are wrong.
Pawnbroker00 1 year ago
@Pawnbroker00 It might look like an elephant to you. Doesn't alter the fact that it isn't. The sword has a long hilt, long blade and is modelled on a German langeschwert and cannot be realistically used in one hand. Your comments on the claymore are funny but I'm sure the irony is wasted on you.
th7dude 1 year ago
That wasn't a longsword.
It was a "hand-and-a-half" or "bastard" sword.
combatcommand 1 year ago
@combatcommand Nope, it is a true longsword, the model is an Albion Liechtenauer.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
@Nikos3000 *cough* i'm a medieval and reniassance entheusiast.
swords is one thing i know.
a longsword was made with a one handed grip as to be used with a shield or spear.
combatcommand 1 year ago
@combatcommand Your definition is wrong. A longsword is a cruciform sword with long hilt suitable for use in two hands, especially with regards to this weapon being used. You might be enthusiatic but you are not correct. I teach 14th-16th century Renassiance fencing from the German Fechtbücher, my specialism is the longsword.
th7dude 1 year ago
@th7dude that would make you a 14th-16th century medieval fencing teacher.
the middle ages did not end until 1678 A.D
combatcommand 1 year ago
@combatcommand Even if you are right (which I rather doubt), how does that invalidate his point?
halfassedfart 1 year ago
@halfassedfart not his entire point, but the point about the renaissiance.
combatcommand 1 year ago
@combatcommand I teach Renassiance fencing from the German Fechtbücher. These manuals are specifically from 1390-1570. So, as I said, that is exactly what I teach. Your definition if middleages is simply wrong. Please do some research before you spout rubbish.
th7dude 1 year ago
@th7dude
longsword is an uberella term for cruciform swords of a certain lenght, they can be one-handed, two-handed, or bastards. there was no mass production or standards back then and therefore it varied a lot, the best way to classify european swords is with the oakshott typology.
Supertomiman 1 year ago
@combatcommand Wrong, wrong, wrong. If this is the only thing you know I suggest you do some reading.
th7dude 1 year ago
@th7dude Bro, I learned from Philip Daileader. I know my stuff.
combatcommand 1 year ago
The Longswordsman is a brave bastard for trying this
mixcow 1 year ago
Trying to test a longsword against a rapier in a "fencing" setting is not very educational. A longsword is not designed for fencing and neither is the main gauche. The rapier is probably the deadliest hand to hand weapon in history based on speed, reach, lethality and armor penetration. That is why it is the last hand to hand weapon developed in the west.
needparalegal 1 year ago
@needparalegal Fencing - the art of defending oneself, the use of fencing masks is purely for safety, this is not a wired sport bout. This is representing a civiian unarmed fight between the two weapons, which there are numerous accounts of historically.
Neither was the rapier the last hand-to-hand weapon developed, being phased out around 1650-60 in most countries, several sword types followed it, including smallsword and sabre, but pointing outs its lethality is certainly useful.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
@needparalegal The rapier isn't particularly fast, nor is it always lethal. It can't penetrate armour worth a damn either.
halfassedfart 1 year ago
@needparalegal - I'm not too sure about it being the deadliest hand to hand weapon in history. It was only very short lived and was primarily a civilian weapon, and even then there are several accounts of duelists receiving what would otherwise be lethal thrusts from another weapon (a rapier is for thrusting, after all) and simply walking away from the fight. Silver had a point when it came to rapiers and their limited practical use. Wait.. am I being trolled?
kairn83 1 year ago
@needparalegal Only deadly if used correctly. A heavier cut and thrust sword can build enough momentum to knock the rapier away very easily- meaning that it is difficult to defend against through direct opposition. ...of course an experienced fencer would know better than to directly oppose a heavier weapon
Spiritrunner6 1 year ago
@Spiritrunner6 i almost agree..but the rapier is very light and flexible and u cannot knock it out of the way just like that, i think you have better chances to knock off another longsword. if you use an espadon or a zweihander..sure you can knock away pretty much everything, but if you miss the cut, you wont have time to recover
11kman1 7 months ago
what does the term ahf stand for and i love the woodin long sword the most i only wish it would be allowed in kendo if you having any information reguarding the long sword being allowed in kendo
would you share it with my that would be most helpful thanks
DarkBlaze1000 1 year ago
@DarkBlaze1000 AHF is our school, the Academy of Historical Fencing, this is an old video, most of my others have the logo and full name at the start. I am not sure what you mean by longsword being allowed in kendo? Kendo is a very ritualistic sport dealing exlusively with the katana, the Japanese longsword, they would have no need or desire to use European weapons.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
is there a rule against using the figure 8 pattern if charging with the long sword? i bet there is. because the other dude could not penetrate the swirling wall of steel !
acerb45666555 1 year ago
@acerb45666555 No rule but using any device with an obvious tempo like a figure of eight makes it easy for a good rapierist to thrust into the many openings you create. It is very important to keep the point on line, more so when fencing against the rapier.
th7dude 1 year ago
@th7dude ........but the onslaught would be so ferocious that the opponent would have no choice but to back up and lose coordination as they frantically tried to block the attack! im thinking like a viking would think! they fought like rabid wolves! and even if fencing is tamer stuff, you can still put on some good pressure to shatter the foes concentration! make him sweat!
acerb45666555 1 year ago
nice rune defender
globe11123 1 year ago
just out of curiosity, the guy with the longsword doesnt normally use one does he?
ashleyjamesdoran 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Swetnam says the feet should be together - the heel of the right almost touching the big toe joint of the left. This is to avoid getting hit in the front leg by the opponent's weapon.
kozushi 1 year ago
Swetnam says the feet should be together - the heel of the right almost touching the big toe joint of the left. This is to avoid getting hit in the front leg by the opponent's weapon.
kozushi 1 year ago
Joseph Swetnam says you should keep your right heel almost attached to your left foot's big toe joint when in your on guard stance. This is to keep your legs as small a target as possible. Therefore, at least for his system, the on guard footwork for the rapierist would appear to be incorrect... This is just Swetnam though.
kozushi 1 year ago
@kozushi I dont know who 'swetham' is but after engaging in many open reenactments (ie not staged fights but blows not thrown hard enough to do real damage) in situations ranging from one on one to all out brigade vs brigade combat. I also do other martial arts and work in the security industry, so i put the concepts to the test in real situtions.
I find side on to be the best option. as for closing your stance as you suggest here, i advise to spread your stance in a defensive posture.
ashleyjamesdoran 1 year ago
@ashleyjamesdoran by spreading your feet you make it harder to be pushed over.
watch someone who does any martial art- boxing, karate, anything....they will all tell you, wide stance for defense, closed stance for quick attacks (ie cat stance in karate.)
ashleyjamesdoran 1 year ago
@kozushi That is indeed Swetnam. I practice predominately Capo Ferro, whereby the stance is typically wide, in fact, wider than I am normally using here, I have brought my feet slightly closer together for quicker widedrawl against the longsword.
Neither Swetnam or Capo Ferro are correct or incorrect, they are merely different ways of which you must decide works best for you.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
I love the klash of steel and steel...
todorokusho 1 year ago
@todorokusho ..i wonder how far they can go? cant he just knock the others dudes legs from under him? i think they go as far as safely possible! even using grappling and wrestling moves as in the manuals! anything to get the opponent on his knees in defeat!..........(of course, that would be only for the big tournaments)........i wont call them "Fencing shows"! ....Tournaments sounds more fitting!
acerb45666555 1 year ago
I think he knows that. The longsword needs to use the superior leverage once past the point. Just watch out for the dagger. I know because I'm the guy with the longsword.
th7dude 1 year ago
trap-block his blade with youre dagger then go for it! you have the advantage!
acerb45666555 1 year ago
Feel the point of my rapier scoundrel!
Don't make me use this longsword!
XD
rrraul21 1 year ago
Isn't the rapier dagger called a "Defender"?
solitajre222 1 year ago
@solitajre222 I haven't ever heard that. Within the Italian rapier manuals of which most people study it is merely called Pugnale, which directly translates to dagger.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
@Nikos3000 Hmmm oh well atleast i know now! =) I just had a feeling it was called that.
But thanks for the info!
solitajre222 1 year ago
rapiers should be to fast for the longsword and with the dagger you can take his swoord to the side and come in with the dagger
maarhoefe 1 year ago
@maarhoefe Simply not the case, just look at the stats of the two, the rapier weighs in at 1.2kg, the longsword 1.5kg, but the longsword has both hands on and therefore more leverage and speed in many actions. The idea that the longsword is slow is a myth. Also, the leverage of the longsword makes it difficult to bind or close with rapier or dagger on many occasions, as they can be beaten through.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
@Nikos3000 still it is slower then rapier and dagger i can know becus i use both and the rapier is way faster especially with the dagger the longsword is slower then the rapier thats a fact
maarhoefe 1 year ago
where did you get the longsword? i like it :)
joeskelly123 1 year ago
@joeskelly123 The longsword is an Albion Liechtenauer, though we have since changed to using the Meyer model and Hanwei Tinkers, as they are safer, in terms of flex in the thrust and blunt trauma impacts.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
that's cool
MatheusMPL 1 year ago
but, i thikn if they 2Her gave his all, the dagger/ rapier would be on the ground, with his guts in his hands
dominic2014 1 year ago
There are plenty of historical accounts of the two meeting, coroners reports show that the weapons are very much a match for eachother, the quality of the fighter being the most important factor.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
it seems most times, the addition of the dagger would to more kills, tho the longsword should not be discounted as a weak weapon.
dominic2014 1 year ago
Indeed the dagger makes things easier for the rapierist, as to be expected. But no, the longsword should never be discounted, we study both, the longsword is a much more versatile weapon, the rapier much more specialist, intended for exactly this, a one on one unarmoured fight on even ground.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
i think a long sword wouldnt stand a chance.
well wasnt it made for a time with thick plate armor, it was the best for its time. On a fight with no armor the rapier is clearly the better choice.
mymom1234 1 year ago
Not at all, most longsword fencing treatise teach unarmoured combat. There was also plenty of carry over period wise, the longsword was still is use for most of the rapier period.
They each have their strengths and weaknesses, equal opponents will be about matched as a rule. There is a common misconception that longswords are really heavy, in reality, their weight is on average only 200-300 grams more than a rapier, but with a second hand for leverage.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
well you should know better ;)
it was only thought process of someone with no experince or knowledge in fencing.
so would a rapier be any good against a plate wearing enemy?
mymom1234 1 year ago
Its ok, its what most people think :-) Really just movie and media misconcenptions.
In essense no it wouldn't be, but it depends how much armour we are talking about and what is classified as a rapier. By the rapier period full armour was rarely worn, only part armours, but rapier like weapons carried in battle were normally shorter and broader bladed.
The rapier as seen here is primarily a means of self defence in civilian life and would therefore never expect to face an armoured foe.
Nikos3000 1 year ago
Mmh...I dunno about the rapier itself being the best. Now, if that'd have been a cutlass, then hell yes it would've ripped shit up. But I'd be more fond of the main gauche he's got in the other hand
Delroxorz 1 year ago
German Longsword is mostly taught in the context of unarmored combat.
antoriamemphis 1 year ago 4
RAPIER IS DA BEST
whitejohn123 1 year ago
The bout seemed to be almost completely within the rapier's lunge distance, which begs the question: why didn't he LUNGE? Too much dancing up and poking. Fight should have been over in seconds. As Inigo Montoya said, "Study your Agrippa!" There is finally an english translation...
maninblackdesign 2 years ago
Much of it is in lunge distance yes, as that is the measure you should fight in. There are lunges there, and with good flex, but not many, why? Because the rules change when fighting a longsword, blade domination is almost completely impossible due to their leverage.
With this in mind, a displaced lunge by the leverage of a longsword will leave you like a rabbit in the spotlight, fighting mismatched weapons can change the dynamic a lot.
Nikos3000 2 years ago
Blade domination would be impossible, and a poorly timed lunge would leave the Mr. Longsword with a small hole in the gut and Mr. Rapier with a large hole in the head... But the rapier has speed and agility. Also, both swords have a similar overall length, the smaller hllt on the rapier gives it a greater perportion of blade. With the one-handed grip and lunge it has greater range. did not seem that he took advantage of these advantages. Close range played to the longswords strengths. Fun clip.
maninblackdesign 2 years ago
There are a number of strikes at distance, but as I said, lunging against a longsword can be very dangerous, as once displaced you are very vulverable, and the dagger cannot parry many of the longsword attacks.
In terms of agility, yes, that is indeed the way to beat a longsword, never being engaged and using the disengage speed to strike on open lines, but both fighters were exhausted from two hours of sparring, as I have mentioned before on here, see my more recent single rapier v longsword.
Nikos3000 2 years ago
That clip is more what I was thinking of...Also illustrates some of the dangers you pointed out. Really great posts. Next time I am at the Salle I will have to have a longsword enthusiast suit up. I have spent too much time over the last two days thinking about how to fight them not to! Thanks for the conversation.
maninblackdesign 2 years ago
Interesting, however, these guys need to work on their movements a little more! You Tube "the Loyal Order of the Sword"...those guys are intense with rapiers!!!
sgf357 2 years ago
Comment removed
ZompocSurvival 2 years ago
the longsword guy seems a bit too tentative, good form though in any case
artiepoore 2 years ago
thats because thrusting is better explained and developed than mere striking and slicing with katanas
scottscwalker 2 years ago
and dedicating to a eastern art without paying a little respect (even denigrating it) or having a hint atleast of our martial past..its a sign of hypocrisy. and its even against to the foundation of the japanese art i practice wich teaches respect and improvement with an open mind. sry ..i forgot myself talking..i mean writing :))
11kman1 2 years ago
I agree with you whole heartedly, personally the western martial arts interest me far more simply because they are our martial heritage, but in terms of fighting, it is so important to face a multitude of opponents, styles and weapons, hence why I think many katana users would come undone against a rapier, just as many longsword users do. Most people still do not realise the huge detail and sophistication of western swordsmanship, but its spreading at a good rate.
Nikos3000 2 years ago
that can improove one's performance in both ways. an open mind. i hate the fact that some eastern (japanese mostly) matial artist think that western style is just some barbarian thing, in which u need just a thick strong arm to lift the blade and swing it hard. after i showed them some clips with some german longsword thechniques..well that kinda tossed their pride to the floor, and started to pay more attention to their origins, as we are in fact europeans..
11kman1 2 years ago
well i'll tell you what happened in my case, not with rapier though. it was bokken vs a wood longsword (which i crafted myself..with an extended hilt). a buddy of mine had the bokken and i took the longsword. he was surprised by the reverse cuts and combinations that flow from that. he was used only to take in consideration only one cutting edge. it was 3-1 for me. those who practice eastern marital arts are well disciplined..but i think its improtant to also have an idea of western martial arts
11kman1 2 years ago
the rapier is fast, and stabbing comes quickly, but dont be fooled, longsword is also precise and a strong swing whould toss the rapier aside making an window of opportunity. against an armored foe, a longsword whould be better for it has the weight that can dent..the armor i guess, stabbing whould deal some damage if enough force is put into it. rapiers whould just scratch. actually for plate i think one needs a greatsword, but the best option is a mace , or an axe. thats just me :D
11kman1 2 years ago
That is what I am thinking, rapiers don't look to be made for armor. I would like to see a rapier vs katana, they are both largely used for unarmored targets. I would love to see the rapier win that one to anger all the anime people.
EthanJM 2 years ago
hmm dont like anime ..but i do practice kendo . so i favor the katana, but the rapier whould have some advantage. anyway i dont have my mind lock on the japanese discipline. im open to all kinds of arts if it implies 2 handed blades :D..the thing i love about the longsword..is that it offers the possibility to make reverse in various combinations.
11kman1 2 years ago
Rapier against Katana is something we intend to do shortly, but all the katana trained people I know also do western martial arts, so it would not be an accurate representation of one distinct style against another, but we are getting to it.
Nikos3000 2 years ago
Actually a strong swing from a longsword is parried perfectly well providing you parry with the correct part of the blade, as you should. You would not cut with a longsword against armour, but halfsword, (one hand on the blade), and grapple and thrust, rapiers are not remotely intended for armoured combat and would not be good for it.
In fact, swords generally have rarely been the primary weapon of war, that role is mostly played by various forms of polearms and also blunt trauma instruments.
Nikos3000 2 years ago
I am no expert on dueling, but I would say in a 1v1 duel the rapier might have an advantage. But for actual war the longsword is the better choice, especially when you take armor into account.
EthanJM 2 years ago
Very much so, the Rapier is purposely made for civilian unarmoured combat, which is where it excels, whereas the longsword is a much more general purpose universal weapon. The rapier does indeed suck against armour, it really is a civilian weapon only.
Nikos3000 2 years ago
finally i found a video with a longsword that doesnt have fucking anime,videogames,and weirdos wearing anime customes...
edy18620 2 years ago
longsword would win
mrfrankincense 2 years ago
depends on the swordsman, not the sword. longsword has loger reach & more power, but the rapier is faster & more precise
artiepoore 2 years ago
Very much depends on the swordsmen, generally we find that they are a rough match, but if anything,the rapier has a slight advantage, typically as longswordsman are so surprised by its mechanics, and no, longsword does not have longer reach, rapiers typically have around 42-43" blades as opposed to 34-38 for longswords
Nikos3000 2 years ago
longsword has more power
mrfrankincense 2 years ago
Hey!
You guys are quite good!
A pleasure to watch. Thanks.
TheRealCaptainCarrot 2 years ago
you know what is actually cool?It is hearing these guy breath heavy.
You can imagine how exhusted they feel and you can imagine the deadly chess match that is happening in their heads
If I was to make a movie duel sence it would be like this
Two guys evenly matched.I would have the sounds of the swords.The sounds of them stepping of leaves or mud,sticks
But most important the sound of their breathing because if it is a life of death fight.Breathing is everything
NewZealfighter 2 years ago
Nice, I didn´t know that long swords(this one seems to be a hand and a half) offers so many defensive possibilities.
I´m a fant of European swords and always advocated it´s superiority over Japanese katana.
Corvusdotensis 2 years ago
there is no superior weapon. One is for hacking and the other is for cutting, end of story. Its the techniques that make the swordsman not the type of weapon.
Delmo67 2 years ago
Perhaps... What´s the difference between "hack" and "cut"?
Btw, English is not my first language.
Corvusdotensis 2 years ago
A hack is like a person hitting a tree with an axe, the damage comes mainly from force focused on a relatively small area.
A cut is like a knife slicing a tomato, the damage mainly comes from more blade surface being moved over the attacked area.
weatherlight52 2 years ago
I'm with ya.
Matunaagah 2 years ago
guy with the rapier is pretty good but he needs to use his speed and side arm more... the guy with the long sord isn't half bad either
JAFORGE2008 2 years ago
I have a question about the Liechtenauer. Mainly how does it handle? Would you recommend it for armored combat?
gigasbleach99 2 years ago
Yeh, there is some really good armoured combat in the Liechtenauer lineage stuff, it obviously looks very different to the unarmoured practice you see in our videos of longsword though.
Although rapier is my main specialism is rapier I also do longsword from Liechtenauer sources such as Ringeck and Meyer, I have always found it to be excellent.
Nikos3000 2 years ago