Problems with the Genealogy of Jesus - Joseph, who's your daddy?

[TheMathgeek37]

I have to wonder this: Could Jesus' being rejected by the Jews having something to do with the fact that there were women in the line who committed lewd acts? I have pondered why the Jews rejected Jesus beyond his offending the Pharisees and Sadducees but nothing is coming to mind.

I figured the genealogies might have played a role in that.

[jordankriese]

1st thing: Titus 3:9.

2nd thing: Genesis 2:24.

I'm not arguing this one. You do indeed have this one in the bag.

[TomMSTie]

D'argo, tell him who his daddy is!

"I'm your daddy!"

Yay, Farscape! ^_^

[lizazoon]

Jesus has no other paternal genealogy as a pigeon.

[johnjoins]

But, how could Jesus be from the house of David when only 2 possibilities exist:

1) He was God's son and not Joseph

2) He was some other man's son other than Joseph

I've never got why the 2 evangelists even bothered constructing this geneology

[dannukesem]

I had a few problems with the average age of people. I have always heard that the average lifespan of people in the days before medicine was 24 years old. Biblical accounts (I am going from memory here) seem to tell of people living alot longer, not counting the ridiculous ages in Genesis.

[ChristianAmerican]

I'm surprised you didn't do more homework before you made this video. Or maybe you knew the truth, & just wanted to mislead people.

In Matthew's acct, he is writing to the Jews, & follows the biblical precedent of genealogical abridgement. This is also why he began with Abraham.

I also noticed how you ignored aesthetictripp in the previous comments when he told you where to find Mary's genealogy The Jerusalem Talmud, Haggigah, Bk 77, 4, shows that Mary's father was Heli.

[crazypills2]

Please demonstrate the "biblical precedent of genealogical abridgment." Are you talking about Ezra and 1 Chronicles? If so, this is insufficient to set it as a "precedent," don't you think?

With regard to aesthetictripp's comment, it wasn't ignored. I simply asked him to show me the text. So, I'll ask the same from you. Show me a commentary on the text from credible scholars. Also, please set the context of when most scholars feel this text was written.

[ChristianAmerican]

Who will you accept as "credible scholars"?

[crazypills2]

I did a brief search on the internet and it appears that the following universities offer studies on the Talmud:

Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Bar Ilan University in Ramat Gan, Jewish Theological Seminary in New York, and Yeshiva in New York

They would be credible. Did you have another institution or Rabbi in mind?

[ChristianAmerican]

How about this... let's urge your viewers to look up this information on their own. It's there! Not from your sources, or mine- so not to be biased.

Anything I say will not be looked up anyway. Nobody will take a Christians word for it.

So, let's encourage everyone to research Jewish methodology & the official documents & see what they come up with, agreed?

[crazypills2]

I have no problem with this. However, the limited research I performed on this topic only came from christians. This seems a little bias, don't you think?

[ChristianAmerican]

I wonder why is there nothing refuting it?

[crazypills2]

I'm not sure, but my first impression is that it isn't a widely used argument or it isn't true. Do you have a credible source who is a published Hebrew scholar that prints the text, translates it and then tell us when it was written?

[ChristianAmerican]

Again, whatever source I use won't be acceptable to you for one reason or another.

So let's quit going back & forth & encourage your viewers to look this up on their own! The credible information is there & they should see for themselves rather than take our word for it.

Now, I watched this video at your request, but I'm bowing out now as I've spent more time here than I should. (1 Tim. 1:3-4)

[crazypills2]

How do you know I won't accept your source? Do you have Hebrew scholar, or is this some christian website you got it from?

This is interesting that no one seems wiling to produce the actual text about Mary. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but you're the second person who made the claim without producing the document or even providing the opinion of a Hebrew scholar. And, when was the document written?

[jklarson66]

All of the clips focusing on Jesus' genealogy problems seem to focus on all of the problems in the genealogy leading to Joseph. I think this glosses over the much more serious problem posed to Christian theology which is, who is Jesus' daddy? If Jesus was born of Mary by immaculate conception, why would the genealogy of Joseph have anything to do with it? If Mary was a virgin then Jesus and Joseph were not even related. These people can't keep their story straight in the very first chapter.

[Dwicker64]

Personally I think there was too much incest.

[crazypills2]

LOL, you are probably right Dwicker64.

[pirbird14]

There is another problem. Both genealogies show descent through the accursed branch of Coniah, whose descendants were barred from sitting on the throne of David after Coniah "did that which is evil in the eyes of the Lord". The Messiah was expected to sit on the throne of David.

[crazypills2]

Yes, I have heard this before. The retort, of course, is that the curse was on the physical blood-line, of which Jesus was not (seeing Joseph was not his biological father). It's not a convincing refute, as this removes all necessity for the genealogy to begin with. Ultimately, the genealogy serves no purpose if Jesus is the son of god.

Take care,

Steve

[pirbird14]

You're quite right. There were also Jews who postulated a dual messiahship, a priestly messiah along with a warrior-king messiah.

I've recently come across Robert Eisenman, who has developed some very interesting ideas about the origin of Christianity after years of study of the Dead Sea scrolls. The university level course which he teaches at Cal Tech is available here on Youtube.

I don't think we'll ever know what happened, unless we find Jesus' diary written in his own hand.

[LordHines420]

This video single handedly proves that the buybull is 100% NOT the inspired word of any god or gods. I'm gonna have 2 show this 2 every 1 I know ASAP.

AWESOME!!!!!!

[crazypills2]

"AWESOME!!!!!! "

Thanks LordHines420

[CrayLuv]

Wouln't have to do with the genealogy of Mary and not Joseph. The Bible does not say that it was through the blood line of Joseph. The question is (Who is Marys father?).

[crazypills2]

CrayLuv,

The point of the video is to show whether the bible is infallible (i.e. contains no errors and contradictions)

[CrayLuv]

CrazyPills2 I could explain myself but as I see it, I don't feel like it. This crap is alot like yahoo chat. Pointless and a waist of time.

[DrawingYou]

However, the Bible claims that God is the biological/spiritual father of Jesus (virgin birth remember) So Josephs lineage is a mute point because Jesus was the bastard child of God.

[sapiensape]

Well done! I believe profMTH also has explored this subject too in his YouTube videos.

[crazypills2]

Thanks sapiensape.

[knineu02]

I find it interesting that Joseph even gets to claim genealogy with Jesus since it was not his sperm that created the child. The best you can say is that Joseph adopted Jesus and not that he is a descendant of anyone but god and Mary. Joesph is no more the father of Jesus that I am.

[a0eoj]

Obviously religions, and christianity is no exception, are delusional fabrications developed over large periods of time. Since it had been prophecied that the Messiah would be a descendant of David, the charlatan theologians of the time probably felt it was imperative to somehow link Jesus with David despite an immaculate conception. What's really amazing is that despite all the obvious fabrications, contradictions and absurdities, some people still revere the bible as the inerrant word of god.

[theeyeisblind]

1. jacob and heli were gay lovers

hahaha

[soundscapenyc]

VFX live web interview today -2 July 09- at 4PM EST on the Jesse Woodrow show. JESSEWOODROW (dot) COM

let the insanity begin.

[CO2Junkie]

Though Joe wasn't Jesus' father anyway...

It seems you've skipped 3 other possibilities for the discrepancy: 1. Joseph's legal father was cuckolded & somehow Mark or Luke knew about it, 2. Joseph's biological father was replaced by a legal father through second marriage of Joseph's mother, 3. The story is mythical & thus it really doesn't matter anyway. Just like no one argues over whether Zeus was Heracles' real father.

[CO2Junkie]

Pardon me - I meant to say 'Matthew' not 'Mark'.

[Iced1992]

Doesn't really matter, though, as Joseph wasn't Jesus' biological father.

There goes the prophecy. >.>

[Alphasys]

Okay, tell me please, what does a genealogy account have to do with Jesus? Wasn't he supposed to be immaculately conceived, hence not having a human father? It would mean that Joseph adopted him as his son, negating that there's a true lineage. In my opinion, these genealogical accounts serve no purpose at all, besides filling pages with more nonsense to throw you off the path of truth and fact.

[AgApE010]

Goodnight.

[AgApE010]

(continued)

The fact that Luke is tracing Mary's lineage is also evidenced by how Luke clarifies that Joseph wasn't Jesus' biological father:

"Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being *(as was supposed)* the son of Joseph..."

-Luke 3:23

Again, atheists show that they are totally ignorant of the Bible and make attacks without doing proper research. I suggest choosing a different hobby.

[crazypills2]

AgApE010,

How does Luke 3:23 demonstrate your claim that it's Mary's genealogy, especially when the text specifically names Joseph as the son of Heli. Was Luke a liar? You must do better than this.

[AgApE010]

It's very simple: Matthew records the geneaology through Joseph and Luke records it through Mary. Women aren't typically mentioned in Jewish geneaologies which is why Luke doesn't mention Mary and which is why Matthew's gospel is so unique in that it mentions a handful of women (Matthew was illustrating a point in listing women in his geneaology, particularly the women he chose to list, but that's a different discussion).

Please take the time to study these things.

[crazypills2]

AgApE010,

Please provide evidence of your claim that Luke contains Mary's genealogy.

Additionally, please explain why Matthew skips generations in order to hold to the number 14, and also why there is a difference of almost 450 between the genealogies of Matthew and Luke between David and Jesus. Statements mean little without evidence, you know that D.

[AgApE010]

"Please provide evidence of your claim that Luke contains Mary's genealogy."

Luke 3:23 provides a clue, as I mentioned in the last comment. Besides that, it is obvious that a person has two parents. If you have two geneaologies and they list different descendants, a logical person would conclude that they are different genaologies of the two parents. This is pretty obvious. But leave it up to Bible scoffers to miss the obvious.

[crazypills2]

"If you have two geneaologies and they list different descendants, a logical person would conclude that they are different genaologies of the two parents." - AgApE010

Unless they both specifically mention Joseph and not Mary. The more obvious conclusion is that they contradict each other.

This isn't the only issue though, as Matthew flat out lies in his account.

[AgApE010]

"Unless they both specifically mention Joseph and not Mary."

Again, you're showing an ignorance of Jewish geneaologies. Women are rarely ever mentioned in a Jewish geneaology (I think Matthew's geneaology is the only real exception in that he mentions a handful of certain women). See the geneaologies in the Old Testament. The only times women are mentioned is when they are a relevant and/or significant part of the story (i.e., Abraham's wife, Jacob's daughter, etc.)

[crazypills2]

So Mary's not relevant or significant? :-)

In Luke 1:5, Elizabeth is mentioned as a descendant of Aaron. Luke doesn't have the problem to which you refer.

[AgApE010]

As a matter of fact, Sarah isn't even really mentioned in Abraham's geneaology. She is mentioned in the verse immediately after.

Again, in Luke 1:5 Luke isn't writing out a geneaology.

And no, Mary isn't a significant part of the story like how, for instance, Jacob's daughter was, who was mentioned because a war would break out over her being a daughter of Jacob who was raped.

Please go study these things and think before scoffing at that which you are ignorant of.

[crazypills2]

"Please go study these things and think before scoffing at that which you are ignorant of." - AgApE010

D, I'm disappointed, as you usually offer better evidence for your arguments.

Luke names Elizabeth as a descendant of Aaron, so her genealogy was obviously important to Luke.

Luke names Joseph, not Mary, as the son of Heli. Since he's already linked Elizabeth to Aaron, then he could have named Mary in the genealogy or at least said she was a descendant of David.

[AgApE010]

"please explain why Matthew skips generations"

Did you research this first or do you just want to play a game of "make the Christians jump through hoops"? I did my homework. I suggest you do yours as well of you're going to discuss this subject. I can provide helpful links of you'd like.

[crazypills2]

"Did you research this first or do you just want to play a game of "make the Christians jump through hoops"?" - AgApE010

I think you know I did my research and to infer otherwise is simply disingenuous.

I have read many explanations about Matthew's account. When the explanation is more unbelievable than its subject, it is most likely wrong. We believe this in everyday life, so why not the bible?

[TemperaMagenta]

This is great Steve :) I always look forward to your videos^^

[crazypills2]

Thanks for the support TemperaMagenta.

[DonQuixotedeKaw]

After a bit, I went cross-eyed and was thinking about those who argue whether Kirk or Picard was a better captain, & those who argue as to whether LOTR or Star Wars was a superior morality model replacement for the scriptures. You put a great deal of quality work into anal-yzing of a work of fiction! Please find a better use for your talents than masturbating the minds of sufferers of undiagnosed FMTLE syndrome with euphoria addictions to déjà vu of key seizure induced hallucination episodes.

[DonQuixotedeKaw]

How about movements for class action civil law suits against corporate "religions" for fraud, undue harm & reckless endangerment, larceny, conspiracy to commit treason (with BushCo, the AMA & pharmaceuticals, & prison industries, the Murdocks, The Discovery Institute, the GOP, etc), aggressive hostile espionage (in the DEA, ATF, FDA, IRS, DOE, CIA, FBI, NSA, etc) incitement to riot, and tax evasion? The corporate cults have their fingers in most every pie. The theocracy is here. Let's stop it.

[Nebulous1982]

Also the Quran contains Signs from God in the form of scientific miracles that have convinced many atheists that God does exist and that the Quran is His Word.

The Quran has remained preserved and it is free from human error and mistakes as explained in this video.

But what is overlooked is that the Message of Islam is consistent with what all prophets of God had. Christ taught his people to worship God alone and to live life according to Him; He was a Muslim by definition; a submitter to God

[Archaic77]

If the Quran was the perfect 'final' word of God then i would like to know why when it was interpreted in to the social systems you see in place in the middle east they are the most oppressive, dictatorial regimes on the earth. I would certainly not choose to live under the rule of Islamic law.

[Nebulous1982]

There is a qoute in the Quran that says that you might like something even if its bad for you; and you may hate something which is actually good for you. Whether you believe in God or not; this is true. It is about understanding the sharia law by getting to the bottom of it. Its may seem harsh but it is based on deterrence.

However; what some muslim governments do is not always justified according to sharia.

[Nebulous1982]

Islamic law makes things easier for us muslims and it promotes a healthy society; justice and a good platform to live the pure muslim life. If you want to drink gamble and sleep around; then you wouldnt feel at home in a true muslim state cause the state does not allow it. You may find that dictatorial but hey: this is islam and you have your own way.

[ricardas83]

I can bet on my penis, that if such errors would be in other text of other religion, it would be exposed by christian apologetics as inexcusable holes.

[crazypills2]

"...my penis...would be exposed by christian apologetics" - richardas83

Hey, this isn't that kind of channel :-)

[ricardas83]

LOL

[Archaic77]

Great video dude. This is something i was not aware of and adds to the ever growing list of reasons i do not accept the Bible as anything more than man made story and a flawed one at that. 5 stars :)

[crazypills2]

"Great video dude." - Archaic77

Thanks Archaic77

[flosse89]

good video and i LOVED the title xD

[crazypills2]

Thanks for the comment flosse89.

[twinnumber3]

Love your vids! I think Mt wasn't lying but engaging in creative history typical of the time (virgin-born Caesar, etc). He clearly wanted to emphasize 14 (and 3 sets- 3 is perfection/completion). The only connection i see is 14 = gematria of David. (Or, yad y'diyd = 3 x14 = power of a beloved) Dont see what was special about the exile; Zerubabel was a messianic figure but a little late. Depends on how Mary was related to Eliz- both genea's are tribe of Judah while E was of Levi.

[draagon66]

A bible that is imperfect is all that we need to dispense with this god. It is the basis for belief but it is deeply-flawed, reflecting the flawed characteristics of the men that invented the god. Their god is a mirror-image of themselves, with all the culture that they lived in. Why would a god have middle-eastern culture. I figure a god would have no earthly cultural background included in its character.

[aesthetictripp]

Also,this matter of genealogy is a much larger issue than a small 10:00 minute video,and has been addressed by others already,there is no proof of contradiction and just like life,God leaves just enough room of question to give one the fair opportunity to believe or not..............

[Brandt761]

if god left doubt, how can you believe?

[draagon66]

Why would a god cause doubt? What is the point? Would you do that if you were a god that wanted everyone to accept it? Of course not. Just another squirm by religious folk. Weak.

[ricardas83]

"God leaves just enough room of question to give one the fair opportunity to believe or not"

-

Aesthetictripp, there is another group of "great" beings, who "leaves just enough room of question to give one the fair opportunity to believe or not". Dictators, tirons... And as god, they too have punisments for those, who choose not to believe.

If you are right, and god realy exist and leaves such gaps, then it is realy, realy sad, that we live under greatest dictatorship.

[aesthetictripp]

I'm aware of the worlds common dictatorship, and that same dictatorship was AGAINST and is against Jesus and TRUE CHRISTIANITY.....so much so that they used Christianity as a FRONT to carry out their agenda,the CRUSADES ,AFTER PERSECUTING the TRUE CHRISTIANS FIRST,hence the INQUISITION and list of MARTYRS throughout history starting with Jesus himself,don't get it twisted,the CHRISTIANS were the first to call out the "world government dictatorship",.............

[crazypills2]

"...there is no proof of contradiction..." - aesthetictripp

Maybe our disagreement relates to the definition of contradiction. How do you define the word?

[DonQuixotedeKaw]

Good call! The modern system of oral indoctrination of euphoria addicts (AKA "brainwashing") is based on selective throttling the definitions of hundreds of key words like "contradiction" and "proof", to that which suits the needs of the meme parasite, and no more.

I do however question your demonstration of logical fallacies, within the subject of the fanatical obsessions of the mentally ill, in hopes that they will cure themselves. IMO, such activities themselves, seem to be leaps of faith.

[crazypills2]

DonQuixotedeKaw,

Hey, I was in that mentally ill group once :-)

[aesthetictripp]

Our disagreement does not lie with definitions of words,our disagreement lies with your presentation..............you have omitted 99% of the substance that goes along with this issue and presented a PREMATURE OBJECTION...you didn't study the issue and yet you present yourself as you did,if you would have studied the issue you would have found all of the answers to the questions you asked easily......your intentions are clearly not truthfully objective as they should be or you pretend to be....

[crazypills2]

"your intentions are clearly not truthfully objective as they should be or you pretend to be" - aesthetictripp

You want others to believe that the bible is the inspired word of god, but don't want the critique that is worthy of such a claim.

I have studied this topic, as I was a believer for over 30 years and considered myself a Berean. The opposing arguments don't stand on their own merit.

Now, please demonstrated how I have 'omitted 99% of the substance'

[aesthetictripp]

I don't mind the critique at all,as long as it's done with honor,you should demonstrate that "opposing arguments don't stand on their own merit"fully,that was your goal to begin with.......was it not,so finish the job instead of stopping before you get started,-with all due respect........

[crazypills2]

aesthetictripp,

I thought I did demonstrate how they don't stand on their own merit, but if you have specific objections to my arguments, please raise them. However, it's dishonest to claim that I left out 99% of the substance of the counter arguments unless it is the truth.

[aesthetictripp]

Okay,first off,Luke has been PROVEN,even by the Jews to be Mary's genealogy ...... The Jerusalem Talmud indicates that Mary was the daughter of Heli (Haggigah, Book 77, 4).and the wording in Luke clearly demonstrates that as well .... 23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, SO IT WAS THOUGHT, of Joseph,...AND the title of SON was not as restricted as we today restrict it as demonstrated in the bible itself and Jewish history itself...

[crazypills2]

"Okay,first off,Luke has been PROVEN,even by the Jews to be Mary's genealogy" - aesthetictripp

PROVEN is a powerful word, I hope you can demonstrate. I have heard this claim, but never seen evidence of it. I'm not saying it's not true, but the only time I've seen it mentioned is in Christian material with no actual reference. Additionally, when was this written and who was the author? Additionally, what do the Jewish critics say?

[jdquarg]

Other than using the Tanakh there wouldn't be any way to prove Jesus linage.

Mark and Luke do not have any other records or any other proof about either linage.

[Brandt761]

Hummm...but this seems like such a minor issue. I mean, it could be a bureaucratic error...

[crazypills2]

"Hummm...but this seems like such a minor issue." - Brandt761

It is unless you believe that the bible is the inspired word of god. If it's inspired, then how could it contain errors and contradictions?

[Brandt761]

It was still written down by men. They make mistakes, even when inspired. The overall message is still divinely true.

[frid9999]

Brandt,

Exactly which parts of the bible are mistakes and which are true, and how does one tell the difference? And why wouldn't god have inspired an inerrant bible to eliminate the issue?

I don't think you are grasping the fatal implications of a bible with error.

[Brandt761]

It requires careful study...

[frid9999]

That is not a real answer is it? Don't be shy, you've readily admitted that "god's word" is laced with errors. Now take the next step and answer the all-important questions: "How does one possibly tell the falsehoods in the bible from the truth in the bible? And why would a god inspire falsehoods anyhow? And is there a more logical explanation for bullshit in the bible than your theory of divinely inspired bullshit?"

[Brandt761]

Not my theory, but you're right.

[Nebulous1982]

This statement in itself is self contradictory. Even if the men who wrote the bible were INSPIRED by God then they would be writing in behalf of Him so they would be unable to make mistakes unless you believe that God Himself does make mistakes.

The message of the new testament is not from God cause it is not consistent with what was revealed before. God is not truine but He is 1. Salvation does not come by believing that an innocent person was tortured and crucified for us all...

[draagon66]

Couldn't the god have proof-read it, especially as it was so important (to some people).

None of the god concept makes much sense when looked at without a bias.

[Brandt761]

...how would god proof-read something?

[aesthetictripp]

The Jerusalem Talmud shows that Joseph was the son-in-law of Heli.

[Nebulous1982]

The Quran is a true revelation from God which was transmitted AUDIBLY to Mohammed peace be upon him through the holy spirit. Not only does the Quran adress Mankind with the consistent Message that was given to all prophets including Jesus peace be upon him but God adresses jews and christians specifically; chrisstians like YOU. This Message is to worship the Creator alone and to live according to His Will made clear by the last prophet sent to us all in this time ; Mohammed peace be upon him.

[Brandt761]

I'm not a Christian.

[draagon66]

Nor me. Besides which, Nebulous1982, just how do you know for absolute certainty, that which you say is really true and accurate. You only have your flawed book for reference. The book that tells you that human sperm originates in the spine, among a few other idiotic statements, which also comes from plagiarising the early bible

You speak as if you were there at the time - and you weren't, were you?

[Nebulous1982]

The Quran says that the sperm proceeds from between the spine and the ribs. So you need to get your facts straight.

How I know what I say is true? Cause it is the Quran that is true. What makes the Quran true? The fact that its unique style and language cannot be reproduced by anyone; not even by the arabs back then who were masters in language and poetry and definetely not Mohamed peaqce be upon him who was illiterate.

[draagon66]

Nebulous1982

"The Quran says that the sperm proceeds from between the spine and the ribs. So you need to get your facts straight."

and DOES sperm originate from between the spine and the ribs? No it doesn't, so the qura'n needs to get its facts straight. It just takes ONE error to negate the whole book as being any authority and there are more errors.

You have been conditioned by your training to ignore them. Why not be honest? Why believe with no basis? Language style? Get real.

[digitised]

Mohammeds mention of 'sperm emitting from between the backbone and ribs' was a paraphrasing of the innacurate greek hypotheses.

It had been documented 1000 years before that sperm was made from all fluids of the body which passed down the spine into the kidneys.

From the kidneys it would proceed to the penis.

This was taught by the Jundi Shupur school of medicine (the oldest medical school), which is where one of mohammeds friends had learn it, no doubt informing him of it later on.

[digitised]

I have yet to find a passage in the quran or bible which reveals knowledge that was not known about at the time.

There is no objective proof that the quran is the word of god. It was assembled and edited from a large collection of mohammeds preachings, transcribed (i doubt word for word) onto palm leaves, papyrus, bones, etc.

Many were lost, many had mistakes or contradicted someone elses account. It was put together into one book by men many years later after the life of mohammed.

[Nebulous1982]

Youtube this;

Top Professors Confirm: Quran is a Miracle in Science

..and listen to what the scientists say. There are many others in the last decades and beyond who have accepted Islam to be the Truth.

Lets assume that Mohammed pêace be upon him plagiarised from other sources he; an uneducated man and illiterate; would have to make a tremendous effort to gather all scientific knowledge and transmit it into a language that NOONE could master!!

[digitised]

I have seen those videos, and i have also investigated what became of these top professors.

Only 1 of the group invited to Saudi Arabia converted to islam. All others returned home to find that they had been misquoted or regretted saying things when caught in the moment.

They were given Bucailles quotes to examine, and he had made alterations to the original arabic altering words to make them fit closer with scientific knowledge.

[digitised]

Bucaille changed the word smoke to gas, when talking about the start of the universe.

He also claims the quran says the heavens are being 'expanded' when the word was not used, to imply that the universe expanded from a small cloud of gas.

This is of course innaccurate even if the word GAS was in the quran since gases were not possible before the formation of elementary particles. But it conformed with statements made by cosmologists in the 1970's, so it was good enough for Bucailles book.

[digitised]

The scientists (very few of whom were top professors in any field) were not given the correct arabic translations, it was very easy for them to made a quick thoughtless statement, given tampered information made to look scientific.

Further scrutiny of Bucailles work has revealed that he produced nothing more than dozens of claims based on vague lines from the quran.

If you are a muslim you are welcome to believe it on faith, but dont be fooled by conmen claiming the quran is scientific.

[digitised]

The quran is not a miracle of literature, as you would realise if you researched its formation after muhammed passed.

It was put together from remnants of what muhammed said, by commitee. It is incomplete, it has no structure, no beginning middle or end, it contains horrific threats towards unbelievers such as myself.

There are of course some nice things in it, but it is also full of biblical errors and apocryphal stories which were common oral folk tales in Arabia at the time.

[digitised]

The biggest problem you face is that fact that Maurice Bucaille himself, did not convert to islam.

The man who found all of the miracles in your book chose to remain a catholic and follower of jesus until his death.

So why would such a man who had confirmed so many miracles in the quran, not accept it and abandon jesus for allah?

There are many dubious claims that Bucaille did convert, but all are anecdotal stories there is just no evidence he really became muslim.

Think about that.

[Nebulous1982]

Its typical of people like you to overlook the fact that the Quran mentions how the universe was formed starting out with something that looked like smoke or something similiar. How could have Mohammed pbuh have known this and for example that when the skies will be destroyed on judgment day a rosy/pink color will be omitted ; exactly what happens when galaxies cease to exist. This we know today.

Are the scientists who convert to islam foolish? Nah ur just stubborn.

[digitised]

Well i didnt overlook it, like i said i investigated it.

The description in the quran is wrong, it claims the earth was seperated from the heavens (earth from sky).

Even if we give it the benefit of the doubt and say it is not referring to a flat earth model, it is still cosmologically wrong.

The earth is 4.5bn years old, the universe is 13.7bn years old. Earth was not created in 6 days, it took millions of years to form from our 3rd generation stars last supernova.

[digitised]

The quran claims that everything was made for the earth, as if we are the most important creation and the stars and other galaxies are just an afterthought.

It also claims the sun and moon follow an orbit around the earth which is consistent with geocentrism.

The sun does not follow an orbit, the moon is also not a light, and the sun does not hurry around the earth to rise in the sky as described.

The qurans cosmology is very consistent with flat earth geocentrism, which is also biblical.

[digitised]

I dont appreciate being called stubborn just because i am critical of ambiguous claims.

There is still no evidence for god, and so much more evidence for naturalistic origins of life, stars, planets and galaxies.

Evolution is an overwhelming fact which you may or may not deny.

It strikes a huge blow to the myth of adam and eve, genetics shows that variation within humans could not have come from 2 humans, sexually reproductive species require a large population with diverse gene pool.

[MultiSteveB]

"when galaxies cease to exist"? Please name one galaxy that has ceased to exist, and the spectral emissions of said galaxy during its 'ceasing to exist'.

[Nebulous1982]

when galaxies explode. my bad.

[MultiSteveB]

I know of no galaxy (all ~200 Billion stars) exploding. Can you cite the discovery please?

[Nebulous1982]

Google this.

Red light for exploding galaxy BBC

Quran, Chapter arrahman 55.37, "And when the heaven splitteth asunder and becometh rosy like paint.

[digitised]

Heaven means sky in the quran.

The concept of a universe was not popularly accepted since the stars (which we know are VERY far away) were placed in the 1st layer of the heavens (quran 67:5).

Stars in the sky were mistakened for shooting stars, since both appear as dots either stationary or moving.

Its such simple mistake for the ignorant desert folk to make.

The heaven splitting means the sky opening with a deep red light, not galaxies exploding, such a claim is simply beyond your book.

[digitised]

55:37 When the sky is rent asunder, and it becomes red like ointment

(muslimaccess-com)

[55:37] When the sky disintegrates, and turns rose colored like paint.

(submission-org, masjidtucson-org)

55:37 And when the heaven is rent asunder, and then becomes red like red hide

(en.knowquran-org)

These were the first 5 google results from non bias websites, all are trying to spread the quran.

All agree that the verse is talking of the sky NOT galaxies.

[digitised]

There are very creative people who are sadly copying the christian science movement in order to convince muslims that the quran makes claims and statements which relate to science.

This is not true and i urge you to be honest to yourself and look at the context of your book, rather than rely on the words of men greedy for fame and success who are attacking science and academia with fabrications and bogus claims.

Religion is about faith, it does not need evidence, your book says this too.

[Nebulous1982]

The Quran says in many parts that God knows everything that is in HEAVEN and EARTH. He KNOWS everything not only in the SKY.

You can drag a mule to a pond but you cant force it to drink. If you are commited to reject islam, you can come up with all kinds of bullcrap to do whatever you have made up your mind to do, and that is reject, reject; reject.

Enough time wasted.

[digitised]

Show me the water then.

I dont reject claims which are supported by evidence, however if i find evidence to be faulty i will have no problem in explaining why that is so.

Islam like all religions is faith based, meaning there is no evidence. You are supposed to accept it on a personal level despite there being nothing substantiating it.

If islam was demonstrably true by evidence then you wouldnt need faith, or be required to believe. You would just have to accept the irrefutable evidence.

[Nebulous1982]

By the way , galaxies as a whole do cease to exist. They only disintegrate. Its not how you understood it.

[digitised]

How do they cease to exist?

Galaxies are comprised of matter held together by gravity, in their current state most galaxies are enormous discs of stars containing some 200 trillion each.

Even when the stars die and supernova, the planets, gases and elements still exist, there is not any disintegration just a winding down of the energy in the stars, as they repeat their cycles until there is no more usable hydrogen.

Why are you talking about disintegration?

Is that was the quran says?

[Brandt761]

Yeah, methinks you fall victim to some of the same problems Christians do....