Symptoms do not indicate vertebral subluxation. I did not say that manipulation will temporarily fix "vertebral subluxation", please do not misquote me. I thought you were genuinely interested but you are not even taking the time to read properly. I can only assume you have non interest in learning but seek only to fuel your bigotry. If you are not going to listen, then further dialogue is pointless.
Then what indicates vertebral subluxation and what is up with the use of x-rays in chiropractic? And if its not a temporary fix...what is it? what is the need for subsequent manipulation? What is the need for continuous manipulation of the entire spine?
I do not represent of speak for other chiropractors. I sold my X-Ray machine years ago due to disuse. I never manipulate the same thing twice but changing the function of one area alters body function so that other compensations may need attention. I don't know of any chiropractors who advocate continuous manipulation, we need to sleep occasionally. Chiropractic is about removing nerve interference much more than it is about manipulation. Nerve interference can be seen on the video above.
jvelos, only when you become a long term reciepient of chiropractic will you reach your answers on chiropractic; subluxation?, x-rays?, long term benefits?, wellness care?
jvelos3, you have excellent questions regarding chiropractic care. However due to your allopathic upbringing...symptom assessment and supression, further introspection thus understanding of chiropractic definitely requires you to check your medical guns at the door. It is imperative for you to utilize chiropractic in a corrective then wellness atmosphere. From this vantage point you will definitely come to understand the immense logic, effecacy, and safety of CHIROPRACTIC!!! I was once a medic.
You want to know why you'd visit a chiropractor twice? Why you'd get an adjustment a second time? Why would you put a bandaid on your cut fingure? You have obviously cut it before and put a bandaid on it then, no need to fix the duplicate injury in your eyes eh Einstein?
So you are telling me that other than the symptoms patients complain about...you have no other indications for "vertebral subluxation"? All you know is that manipulation will temporarily fix "vertebral subluxation"?
It's about time you wondered about this. You can only see the what your technology allows you to see. You cannot see protein transcription or other intracellular activity, and imaging only ever show you effect, not cause, that's why there is so much medical ignorance so that 95% of disease is classified as etiology unknown.
You have any evidence that manipulation does not increase afferentation?
What I gather from all these discussions is that chiropractors in general lack the proper exposure to medicine.
DCs are so quick to label medicine as bad/chiropractic will cure everything...then when presented with cancer, diabetes, bacterial infection, etc....they quickly edit their thinking and say "yeh i guess medicine is good for that...but that is it". This mindset clearly shows that you have not thought this all the way through. You simply are not aware of all facets of healthcare.
No, we have the proper exposure, we just choose to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. You think that cancer, diabetes and bacterial infection are medical successes? If you had said trauma and emergency medicine then fine. But the cemetaries are filled with patients who trusted their disease to doctors who did not understand and therefore failed to address it's cause. Even mainstream media can see this. (search mayer pharma on youtube) Why can't you?
Only a doctor could want a "treatment protocol" for birth! My "treatment protocol" for any condition is always "find and eliminate the cause" because unlike modern medicine, I do not believe that disease is caused by bad luck. There is always a cause. And I strengthen any weak links because in a biological system the body is only as strong as it's weakest link. When poor management results in overwhelming disease, I refer for medical care. I am not stupid, reckless or "zealous" in my views.
abnormal births can happen...hence the usefulness of ultrasound. What do you do if an HIV+ mother gives birth to a child? etc. again oversight on your part.
You want a chiropractic cure for HIV? If I were an Armed Forces junkie wouldn't that be not too dissimilar to sending a bomber in to do the job of a fighter?
@jvelos3 I can't believe someone as busy and in demand as Simon King is taking time out to reply to your pharmaceutically brainwashed posts.
All I can say is since following Simon's protocals my clients recovery rate has doubled and the time between their check ups has more than doubled, to top it off I still often find there's nothing to fix during their check up. No good for my practice but great for my clients. Surely that is not placebo! As I am still a Chiropractor as same as before!!
And yes the CNS can generate spontaneous output...what are dreams? thoughts?
"mainly the muscle spindles" This may or may not be true but what does this have to do with the current discussion? The continous input is so you can feel where your body exists in space.
What is your reference for the CNS producing spontaneous output? Can you prove that dreams and thought don't have afferent input as their origin?
No, you have fallen for the classical explanation of proprioception. The main reason we need body position sense is to control muscle tone. You really need to read my book - Live Without Pain: A New Theory on What's Wrong With you And How to Fix It.
can you prove that a dream has afferent input as their origin? How about thought?
I understand the need for body position but what does that have to do with anything we are talking about? I am not talking about the video...I am having a discussion with chiropractic47...sorry if I was being off the topic of the video.
If brain activity doesn't come from afferent input, where does it come from?
If you can't see the relevance then you have failed (or refused) to understand the basis of neurology and chiropractic47's position. Perhaps if both of you were less abusive and more respectful, something good could come of this. You both behave appallingly. Be curious. Professionals and politicians who think they know everything are dangerous.
I understand what you are saying...maybe im just being pedamtic but my point is that chiropractic47's statement that fixing subluxation...the action of relieving nerve stress...is the source of efferent excitation. This statement is not saying that by relieving stress afferent signals can be processed efficiently and result in improved efferent signal. His statement is wrong. Again relieving stress on a nerve will not CAUSE excitation...but it will ALLOW excitation.
I don't believe that an adjustment relieves nerve stress and I refuse to re-read all the abuse to check that he said it. What i have found is that various irritations, subluxation being one of them, cause persistent muscle inhibition which causes deafferenatation. Restoring vertebral mobility and removing metal from the body removes the inhibition, increases afferentation which improves efferentation, further enhancing mobility. You can see this in all my videos.
But see, you still believe in the subluxation, an entity that has no basis in fact. If what you and others are saying is true, it ought to be visible on imaging studies and cadavers. But it never is. How is that possible?
Imaging studies? Cadavers? Great. Tell you what. Next time there is a car accident, go out and take a photo of the accident. You can see all the damage in great detail, but you can't tell whether the driver fell asleep, or there was oil on the road, or the bend was too tight. Next time your car needs fixing, take it to a mechanic and ask him to X-Ray the engine, or put a drop of oil under the microscope. Sorry, your model is broken, your thinking is flawed, but you are welcome to your opinions.
You can, at least you can imply that by analysis of the accident.
The only "model" i see here broken and flawed thinking is yours. Because clearly your little example was pittyfull.
1) you clearly did not reffute my claim. Thanks for proving my claim.
2) wrong. I base my opinions upon evidence. In knowledge which survived peer-review and empirical testing. You sure base your opinions on your made up evidence (where is it?)
So what you are saying is, in effect, to completely disregard critical analysis? If you can't or are unwilling to analyze what you are doing that is fine, but don't expect anyone who knows anything about the human body to take you seriously.
As an aside, car parts and entire engines are routinely X-Ray'd and CT'd; engine oil is often put under a microscope and examined. Scientists do this to fully understand what is happening, the techs don't. I hope you can see the parallel.
The only point proven here is that beliefs are based on conformity to a paradigm, not on evidence. Read Mendelsohn, Gary Null, Mercola or Mike Adams. You will continue to practice destructive medicine because you test faulty assumptions the wrong way, and I will practice constructive medicine, where only treatments that strengthen and make whole will be considered. As with all religions, there is only one truth, the trick is to peacefully co-exist until it is known.
"beliefs"?!?! "belief" has no part in science. Science is about understanding and empirical observations! its all about describing, understanding, write a method, publish and let peers review what you do!
gary null has ZERO scientific education.
mercola lost his license due to malpractice (focus on he DID damage patients)
Mike adams also has ZERO scientific education.
ALL are quacks!!!
you don't test "assumptions", you test hypothesis and theories.
lol, another very good example of ignorance. I can only assume you were homeschooled or gave up during highschool....
come on.... religion has only one truth? lol, so why there are thousands of gods and "holy books"? i tell you, because religion is not science! Religion is blind to reality. Its primitive.
Science test your ideas and describe what's true or not. people like mercola are frauds!!! they have been proved as such.
People who are engrossed in their paradigm can't see the fallacies upon which it is based. You should read Thomas Kuhn. If you can't see that medical science is a religion based on false assumptions then you will have to wait for my next book "The Medical Delusion". I know your paradigm backwards and reject almost all of it as flawed and illogical. You cannot know mine. Remember all of my patients are medical failures. While yours is the number one cause of death in the US, mine hurts no-one.
I'm sure that manipulation in the wrong hands, or at the wrong time, or with the wrong patient can do harm. As far as we know, chiropractic subluxation can not be induced by manipulation and to think that such a thing is possible is to misunderstand the subluxation. My statement was that my paradigm is harm-free and so far my practice is too. But my paradigm is not typical of chiropractic and I do not represent chiropractic although i am a chiropractor.
how can you say that chiropractic subluxation cannot be induced by manipulation? If you can shift or manipulate the spine one way then you can surely shift it another way.
I am willing to propose that since chiropractic subluxation cannot be induced by manipulation then it does not exist.
so you are not a typical chiropractor yet you advocate traditional chiropractic manipulation?
I must have missed it but I could not find the response to my question. How does manipulation work? how does it fix vertebral lesions? as per your previous post...which for some reason I cannot find now. And how come these lesions can't be found through imaging?
A subluxation is not a bone out of place, so it cannot be caused by manipulation or seen on imaging. Traditionally it is a lesion (vertebral lesion) associated with nerve interference. Nerve interference could be increased or decreased afferentation. Manipulation might cause increased afferentation which from a normal state would be temporary and transient, much like exercise, but from a fixated or low
affterention state, the input would be therapeutic in that increased afferents = increased efferents (the myotatic reflex) and increased efferents = increased muscle tone which further increases afferents leading to a positive reinforcing therapeutic loop. Other reference in my book show how this can decrease pain, improve mobility, misnimise osteoarthritis and affect internal organ function.
Medicine as the #1 cause of death is a red herring; a more valid question would be, "How many more people would die if we sent them all to chiropractors?"
6 jumbo jets falling out of the sky every day is a red herring? An equally valid question would be "How many less people would die if we sent them all to chiropractors" answer - far less. Just sign up to recordyourresults and I'll prove it to you. Let's audit your patient outcomes and we'll see who does the most good/harm. Several papers show that less people die when doctors go on strike.
you clearly can't even understand the very people you post here. Thomas Kuhn does not support your quackery. IF you were to apply the scientific method to chiropractice (which has been done), you would clearly see that chiro is no better than a placebo. It's empirical! You should read David Hume and Kant for a start. Phylosophy is best understood if you learn from the past to the present.
You don't understand Kuhn's assessment of scientific revolution. Can't go back to high school science class, already did a masters degree in Health Services Research at University of Sheffield.
I actually understand Kuhn's assessment of scientific revolution and even its background history for the development of his ideas! You the one completly misinterpreting his thoughts. You should always review the critique of a philosopher btw.
1) you didn't tell if you actually done a science class at highschool
2) a masters degree in HSR does not give you any insight into any clinical science. You must have missed this optional: "Promoting Evidence-bsed Health Care"
Oh no, I have studied Evidence-based medicine from it's outset and often Reference Bandolier and David Sackett. But my advice to anyone who goes to a doctor/chiropractor or health professional who says they practice evidence-based medicine is RUN! The evidence of averages has NO power to determine the outcome for any one individual. The day that medicine forgot that everyone matters, was the day that science got in the way of good doctoring. I know you are never going to agree with this. Tough.
No, I missed the option "get so arrogant you never critique your own beliefs". Next time you take your car to a mechanic, make sure he has a double-blind placebo controlled trial that proves that changing the exhaust will treat the knocking noise in the engine. All medical science is based on the false presumptions that we know nothing about the subject, nothing about the problem and no clue as to the treatment. That is the current medical scientific paradigm and the reason it is so inefficient.
Your posts indicate an extreme ignorance about the efficacy of EBM, actual (not imaginary) pathophysiological processes and the ability to have humility in the face of real disease. Much like religious fanaticism, your belief system is unflexible and your ignorance intractable. I feel sorry for you, your family and anyone exposed to your "expertise".
An me, likewise, for yours. My family are disease-free, have never seen a medical doctor (except for 2 fractures, I have no problems with emergency medicine) and take no medication. How are yours doing?
Oh, and by real disease, you mean those disease processes you do not understand, which apart from scurvy, pellagra and a few other nutrient deficiencies, would be pretty much ALL of them. Show many any one person who has been saved or cured by EBM. You can't. You hide behind EBM because of your ignorance. You probably give BP medication even though less than 2% will benefit from it and antidepressants even though the EBM you say you follow shows they are no better than placebo.
Yes ... so where does efferent activity come from? If you say the brain then you have failed to think it through. The CNS has no ability to spontaneously generate output, it is merely a processing centre for afferent input which starts in the peripheral nervous system, mainly the muscle spindles which spontaneously produce afferent input at 50Hz at rest. This is the major electrical generating system for all brain activity. Neuroscience p365.
Yes...and what is your point? Can you show me proof that afferent nerves from no cranial sources can adversely effect the efferent cranial nerves? Can you show me how fixing a subluxation can excite efferent nerves as chiropractic47 said?
Proof that fixing a subluxation improved efferent nerve activity visible on this very video and all my youtube videos. Evidence for cranial nerve effects more difficult to produce and not my specialty although Carrick has some on blind spot analysis (JMPT).
no no no...chiropractic47 specifically said fixing subluxation would excite efferent nerves. According to him by relieving the pressure from the nerve causes the nerve to excite and produce a signal. I understand what you are saying but I am referring to chiropractic47's failed attempt at sounding smart which to his demise...showed how dumb he really is.
And that is exactly what this video shows. Please stop the personal insults and abuse for a fellow professional. We are all here to help patients. You should observe your local chiropractor sometime. Better still, talk to their patients. Maybe he/she is not what you think they are.
If you look back at all my posts I have tried my hardest to stay away from personal insults. After repeated abuse from chiropractic47...I snapped and joined in.
I stand by what i said before. Chiropractice is utter nonsense.
1) you did not learn the same as a medical doctor.
2) you repeatdly assume conclusions by default
3) the very basis of your talk is wrong. the brain can generate spontaneous activity, metal does not influence neurons (vague), restoring vertrebal mobility will not remove the "muscle inhibition" (whatever that is) - but hey, prove me wrong.
present evidence that chiro works, science paper pls
1) you're right, we didn't learn omnipotence, how can you possibly know what I learned.
2) I base my opinions on my evidence and experience, as you do.
3) Prove spontaneous out put of CNS (no such thing as "brain dead?", If I stick a knife in your back, you will flinch so metal does influence neurons (not so vague) and the video above proves you wrong. But no evidence will "conquer" your bias, because you believe in a false and broken paradigm.
3) lol, again you keep making absolutly no sense. Which is funny and sad at the same time. Your video is useless, it does not compare a patient with the same exact problem who took a placebo pill (for example).
The metal did not influenced the neurons. The knife ripping apart the different layers of tissue, , neurons and blood vessels trigger chemical signals that will produce pain. The"flinch"is a response that can vary from person to person. A bone perfurating could do the same exact response
3) continued.... Again your stupid example of a "knife" is useless. It could work with anything doing the same action: "to stick something in your back". Metal is not the "influence". so again - you were vague and shown how ignorant you are.
Spontaneous out put of CNS, simple google search, to help you understand how simple it is to reffute ignorance like yours:
"Spontaneous brain activity causes 'unforced errors'", New Scientist.
jvelos3, you drew first blood. I returned recently to discuss this video. You butted in on my post to another member with abusive trash. This kicked-in my resolve to regard you as a trash monger to be dealt with in the same manner. I observed you behaving in an adverse manner when commenting at other chiropractic videos. You despise chiropractic before understanding the subject matter regarding neurophysiology and chiropractic. Typical of a die-hard medic.
Thank you siking1962. I wrote afferent to brain efferent out.. jvelos3 believes we are not aware of his attempt to bamboozle the discussion to slant it his way.
Chiropractic is a business. The bread and butter is manipulation. It is in their best interest to keep patients coming in for a lifetime of manipulation. More patients = more money.
You're funny. Yes Chiropractors spend 5 years in University Education, doing as many hours in all the same subjects as MDs (except pharmacology and surgery, we do biomechanics and nutrition) and then we carefully and successfully treat thousands of happy patients, and yes, we get paid for it. Your point is that doctors, surgeons, pharmacists and drug companies only work as a public service???
Chiropractic47's point was that MD's are in a huge conspiracy with pharm companies to keep patients coming back for more drugs and care. My point is that I can say the same about chiropractic...so its failed argument.
Please take your myopic and hysterical ranting elsewhere and buy my book if you want to learn how afferent input drives most neurological and glandular function (unless you know of any brain area that spontaneously generates efferent output.) All nervous system function is afferent generated. But in 23 years, I have yet to cure deafness so I have no idea if and how DD did it.
Everyone but Pus Brains (jvelos3) here got it. While Pus Brains masturbates, let's put it in more generalized terms that may be used at different levels of the spine (Meric System):
Vertebral subluxations do not cause direct irritation to the cranial nerves, but irritation to afferent fibers of the sympathetics which in turn influence the thalamus to influence the CNS to give direction to cranial nerves.
Anyone can understand this...well except Pus Brains.
Michael Jackson entrusted his health to a "medical" cardiologist, who while himself engrossed in the drug world he was indoctrinated into...inadvertantly killed him with IVs' of various narcotics in an effort to alter and manipulate Michaels' body.
Nature provided Jackson with all he needed, however. years ago while under extreme duress and anxiety, he became influenced by and with medicine.
Imagine Michael J. here today, happy and doing what he does best, while practicing holistic care?
you forget that this is what michael jackson wanted. regardless of who aided him be it medical doctors or drug dealers...he wouldve have gotten his high. It's called personal responsiblity people.
And way to take advantage of a dead guy for your own initiative.
Fuck you sick bastard! Michael J. Was extremely influenced by the MD's believing they had a viable path for his health.
We make our choices based upon what we see, hear, and are taught. Mike learned drugs were his best choice from MD's. Now he's dead from a deadly drug cocktail fashioned by his MD fucker!
Go to your room and shoot up what mike was given and have a nice day fucker!
Still haven't shown evidence for cancer causing antibiotics nor have you shown how afferent nerves to the thalamus can adversely affect cranial nerves.
In your 25,000pv/year...how many blind and deaf people have you cured Doctor?
How many blind and deaf people cured by medicine? NADA!
Now do you feel foolish? Right, a no-go for medicine.
Show me evidence that copious antibiotic use doesn't cause cancer.
Show me evidence that the efferents don't stimulate cranial nerves.
The doctor now must see patients. Think about your destructiveness to yourself. Come back when you completed some research into the efficacy of chiropractic. It is there in multitude. Learn my young man! Your ignorance makes you a bore.
Much of the legally blind and deaf have been helped by the use of lasik, eyeglasses, and hearing aids.
antibiotic use is the highest its ever been while cancer is on the decline.
The lack of deaf and blind cured by chiropractic is evidence enough that afferent nerves don't affect cranial nerves. Efferent (as you said in your post) nerves are nerves going away from the brain which encompass cranial nerves.
Any other questions? I am happy to debunk anything you learned at Life chiro school.
There's a recent article from the American Cancer Society titled "Cancer death rate steadily declining". Also the 2009 report has nice graphs showing a decline in overall cancer since 1990.
Don't you feel stupid.
Any other questions? I am happy to debunk anything you learned at Life chiro school.
Dear Asshole, We (collegues) read the ACS article. The ACS is a private not for profit organization (company) that has one of the largest money raising systems the world has ever known. To procure money to operate its yearly multibillion budget, the ACS has a strategy to delcaring success in one form or another. Cancer has not declined.
The ACS does'nt want a "cure" for cancer. Like the pharmaceutical companies jobs are at stake. Yes, the ACS is a large independant business.
It would be very hard for a very large public company to "fake" statistics from data available to the general public. Cancer is declining. Show data proving otherwise.
Any other questions? I am happy to debunk anything you learned at Life chiro school.
A company like the ACS can't fake statistics? Did AIG, Bernard Madoff fake statistics to make personal gains?
No futher reply to this question is needed. Case settled, you lose.
You will never debunk anything without learning how the bodys made and what it needs. You simply are a medic in training. You will debride bunions, clip fungus toenails, attend pharmaceutical symposiums; behave as a medical whore.
The "data" AIG had was made by AIG...so faking it was easy. The data ACS has is open to the public...almost impossible to fake statistics because it would be sooo easy to see the real truth.
Show me statistics that show an increase in cancer.
Debride bunions??? I remove dead tissue from bunions??? You're making stuff up again to try and sound educated.
You still to state the link of cancer to antibiotics, rise in cancer, curing deaf/blind, and many more. I have yet to "lose" an argument.
Adjusting the spine excites nerves going to the brain. These nerves influence the brain. The thalamus is a processing center for auditory transmission.
This is all he said....which is basically meaningless and tells us nothing. Cranial nerves (auditory, optic, and olfactory) stay in the cranium...they do not pass the spinal cord at all.
Penis breath, weeks a go I gave you and the other bitch ample opportunity to find for yourselves: how the spinal adjustment affected hearing?
The adjustment changes the position of the vertebral joint, exciting spinal afferent fibers which influence the central autonomic, motor, and sensory centers: The inferior colliculus and medial geniculate body in the thalamus are relay nuclei from the cochlea to the superior temporal lobe of the ceebral cortex. Here... hearing is a special sense.
Now, due to the severe limitations of "Penis Breaths' and "The Bith's cerebral cortex, we are not to be surprised that they are to recognize let alone understand the neuro- physiology I so graciously laid out for these two hemispheric deprived mental midgits. So folks, please try to find any kind of consideration to these two medical waste products when considering their futile and short sighted retort.
ok folks...a little anatomy lesson. Auditory, olfactory(smell), and optical nerves are cranial nerves. They do not pass the spine at all!! why would they? Why would the optic nerve need to pass down the spinal cord then back up to the thalamus(cerebrum or brain)? They don't. Therefore spinal manipulation cannot "fix" cranial nerves.
"spinal adjustment excites afferent fibers" rediculous statement. That would a bad thing dumbass...think about it.
Explain in detail the specific afferent nerves that will affect the thalamus.
Everything you stated is so general its not even funny...you may sound smart to the average layman but to educated folk you just made yourself sound like a dumbass.
Excellent. The power of natural normal nerve transmission is nicely demonstrated here. Many comments below are from wonderfully allopathically trained individuals and I admire their knowledge - in their specific studies. But please reserve your comments for after you complete chiropractic philosophy and training in our completely separate field of health care.
Mencken changed his mind many times, notably on the subjects of marriage and the American South. As far as I know he never successfully treated anyone for headaches, he couldn't prevent his wife dying from Tuberculosis and meningitis and he couldn't prevent his own stroke. Let us all be sceptical and insist that all people making claims "show me the results" (which is all I am doing) rather than resorting to ill-informed bias.
"...it seems to me that the current coddling of the half-witted should be stopped before it goes too far if, indeed, it has not gone too far already. To that end nothing operates more cheaply and effectively than the prosperity of quacks. Every time a bottle of cancer oil goes through the mails Homo americanus is improved to that extent. And every time a chiropractor spits on his hands and proceeds to treat a gastric ulcer by stretching the backbone the same high end is achieved."
Johnny? Johnn Feng? John if this is you, it's me, Butchy! Remember me man? We detoxed at drug rehab center together. I'm all cleaned up, how about you? Are you still having those bad headaches? Hey man, what are you doing on this YouTube forum?
Great job siking1962, funny how we have all these internet MD's. When are people going to understand this simple concept, the entire "traditional" medical approach is a BUSINESS, plain and simple. They don't make money unless they cut or keep you coming back for more meds. It is NOT in their best interest to CURE a patient. You are a customer, not a patient. Just to clarify, I am not speaking on life threatening circumstances or emergency surgeries.
are you saying chiro don't work for money? that they work on people that don't have disease? they work for what then? And how do you know chiro cure anything, is there any evidence about it?
What is funny is that the science behind life threatening circumstances and emergency surgeries will be the same for the practices you so dearly attack.
transtlantic, are you thinking about those people who abused and ignored their bodies to the point of crisis? They do require crisis (medical) intervention at this point...while continuing with chiropractic care.
You may be confused with the continued application of chiropractic spinal adjustments and lifestyle counseling (includes every subject) when a person already ran themselves down? Continue to apply and educate while they work through crisis to reach wellness and maintain wellness. Good
But please, feel free to prove otherwise. Present a large double blind trial with a control group. to see if chiropractice brings any benefit at all. I know the results of what has been done: chiro = placebo
? you clearly have no idea what a scientific study is....
I'll teach you:
Arch Dis Child. 2002 May;86(5):382-4. N Engl J Med. 1998 Oct 8;339(15):1013-20.
Plus the known fact that chiros killed so many people due to spinal manipulation, that now all of you quacks are now not allowed to perform such manipulation.
last week i paid $1500 for malpractice insurance and today "legally" adjusted 40 people. Saw 400 pv this week. You? you saw no one and will never help anyone with drugs and surgery. You? you are worthless.
lol, just 400 people? lol, right... "so many people". I can also "see" people. What i do is what counts. I help people with "drugs and surgery".
I woul very laugh at you if you tried to explain how to treat a ruptured apendix without drugs and surgery. Or let's say pediatric complications, burns, cuts, cancer,.... come on.. you can't be that dumb...
chiroquackery is quackery, prove me wrong using evidence, you "back rubbering massagist"
Now I will take advantage of your stupid question for me, which will simultaneously undermine and indict your medical existance.
Ruptured appendix, cancer, etc...while referred to an emergency room,, a chiropractor will address: why opportunist pathogens or malignant neoplasm?: Subjected to antibiotic therapies that destroyed their protective beneficial bacterial flora, allowing opportunistic pathogens to proliferate? Did you know that medications including antibiotics are linked to cancer?
The most credible evidence behind people not dying: medical intervention!!!
opportunistic infections due to medical practice. What about - huge decrease in deadly infections?
lol, relation between malignancies and medical intervention: Medical doctors make people live longer, therefore increase in risk of cancer due to old age.
Best place for a chiropracter: a Spa, doing massage/back rubbing, relaxing me, but with no manipulation, that's dangerous
All who read your response laughed...at YOU! The scientific evidence is blunt and against antibiotics!
Decrease in infections due to antibiotics? You ignorant medical whore! Now more than ever, antibiotics are less effective against pathogens. Shit your easy to tackle. Give me some meat, not bullshit!
Chiropractic...the fastest growing and most educated health care profession in the world (Grisanti Report) !
It has been reported you prey on young men in health spas....
Really? less effective? based upon what? care to present such evidence? Because i can overwhelm you with references to antibiotic efficiency. Just choose a microrganism and i'll show you an antibiotic with close to 100% efficiency.
Chiropractice? lol is actually decreasing in the next years its growth as more and more people realize how much quackery it is. "educated"? lol, using magnets and hand waving? what's that? :P
LOL, the quantity of ignorance and misconceptions posted by you is quite amazing... you really have no idea what you are talking about. none at all.
so i'll debunk it easily: when you give antibiotics, the adverse effects are known and can be controlled. Antibiotics are not "linked" to cancer. Please present such evidence. Notice that correlation is by no means causation.
WRONG again! The adverse events of antibiotics beyond what has been knownn have only just recently been uncovered. And the implications are becoming more serious and wide spread.
Again! You inadvertently gave me your neck to garrot!
Prick licker...statins (otherwise known as cholesterol lowering drugs which don't work) are linked to cancer due to their instigation in producing angiogenesis (rogue development of blood vessels to feed neoplasms.
Too busy dispensing without checking the research?
Looks like someone leveled the playing field for the medical wastes products?
Pharmacology, is the key word. Go learn what it is you idiot.
You can't do spinal "adjustment", 1) its illegal for chiro to do it 2) chiros doing it is dangerous 3) you are so stupid you can't define scientifically what is such "adjustment".
Keep insulting moron. But don't be so rude while you do the back rubbing at the spa.
Yo bro! The only who will "relax" you is Mary Palm and her five sisters!
Shit head! How you can live with yourself without a spinal adjustment is beyond comprehension. Fat, dumb, and stupid is no way to go through life son.
I can't even suggest you quit medical school to chiropractic school. Why fuck up chiropractic with you? I would never let you join us. You're medical waste.
Now I want you to stick your head down your pants and have a chicken dinner.
Why do the viewers have to be so nasty? It should all be about what provides the patient the relief he/she needs? Whether chiropractic, osteopathy, physical therapy, even medicine. I am a chiro who believes we all need to quit being critical of the other and just do what each of knows to work for most of our patients. There are idiots in all professions I guess!!!
have to say, that I agreed entirely with Birch919's comments. I am untrained and even I saw the changes of movement pattern before I read her comments... seems as if eyes can tell you a lot if you use them!
Last comment. Manual therapy (some manipulations included) isgreat for some patients. PT's and Chiro's can both be great at treating patients' actual source of dysfunction, not just the malalignment that was almost always caused by an underlying problem such as poor motorcontrol/endurance/Ms length etc.
It's up to each PT and Chiro to do their FULL job based on the most current evidence. I have no doubt you are a good chiro, maybe great. This video simply puts doubt on your observational skills.
This shows absolutely no improvement in strength of any muscle...As I states, she recruits OTHER musclesto help(only in after) Mostly shoulder shrug.. BAD! esp. for future neck pain/headaches.. she also uses trunk SB and rot to help
And the STRONGEST theories as to why certain muscles in the spine (not shoulder- no evidence EVER suggesting this) are stronger right after a 'manip' is cause it corrects their line of pull... nothing to do with nerve insufficiency by pressure 'like that of a dime'.
Your derogatory tone and uninformed comments are highly unprofessional. I never said anything about nerve insufficiency. Please go back and study muscle physiology, especially the myotatic reflex. This young lady has not needed further treatment for this problem for 5 years - so don't accuse me of overservicing. This is just a real-life, real-world observation. stop bringing your bias and just observe.
Bias? All I did was observe (correctly) as I All PT's and Chiro's should... something you still fail to be able to do, these simple observations (for a professional) as pointed out twice now you still choose to ignore.
And you're telling me to go back and study muscle physiology. Refer people to the study that proves any of your ridiculous points. Not a poorly made video that shows absolutely nothing except a HORRIBLE way in which to let a patient lift their arm overhead. You are being naive.
And again, this has nothing to do with the myotatic refex. You should read the current literature in peer reviewed journals rather than sticking and referring people to outdated texts. I am 4 years out of DPT school and have earned my Ortho specialist and completed a fellowship to be a CMT last year. I very well know all of the most current theories and what has been oven wrong. Of course you would know that cervical mob's have been proven just as effective as the manip you did and safer.
Also, if as a therapist/chiropractor you think her after attempt at raising the dumbbell overhead is any kind of a success... you need to go back to school. You are setting her up for so much more problems by for example letting her over use her upper trap for scap upwardrot., sidebend/rotate her trunk and neck while doing it, and not control all of the shear at the neck and even into the thoracic spine....
But then again for a chiro.. that just means more business for you in the future. HAHA
She clearly externally rotates her arm just enough to clear the greater troch under the acromion process as she gets to 90 deg.
Not only does she do this... she ELEVATES her shoulder, sidebends her whole trunk away, and even a little sidebend in her neck AND gets trunk rotation, which makes it harder to tell the difference in rotation in the arm from before.. for a pathetic unskilled clinician. And she comes out of some neck flex to getextra motion too! wow...
Last I checked, babies and animals had spines too. Maybe chiropractic simply works. Of course drewgooden33 must know a lot more about this topic than I do. After all, he watches TV.
I honestly believe that all of this tension is caused by prejudice created over a hundred years ago by those who feared that chiropractic would cause the billions in profits to decline between the medical profession and the pharmaceutical industries. Just as it hurt tobbacco companies once the word was out that it caused many respiratory problems.
There is a place for all types of healthcare in this world. We need all of them whether it be medicine, surgery, acupuncture, or chiropracic. I think that these health professionals have lost there way. The main concern is supposed to be patient health holistically and not a pissing contest between professions. Medical doctors don't know everything just as chiropractic doctors don't. We should feel lucky to live in a country where we can recieve all types of different healthcare.
I've noticed that those who oppose chiropractic do so in a very stubborn matter. No matter the evidence or amount of positive patient evaluations and satisfaction, they refuse to see. Those who are anti-chiropractic that are willing to shut up and truly be concerned with results and studies end up supporting chiropractic.
After reading all of these comments, it just upsets me to see all of the tension between health professionals. It's common sense that the body has a natural capability to heal itself. Also it is common sense that without the proper functioning somatic and autonomic nervous system, how would cognition, movement, breathing, and life itself even exist.
You're right, there is no difference. But put enough thoughts in people's heads, and they'll believe anything. I encourage you to watch the segment, it's available on YouTube, that Penn & Teller did about these quacks for their Showtime show "Bullshit!"
As IF Penn & Teller are experts in anything. They're a Vega$ comedy act. Treat their "opinions" accordingly. In the meantime, if you have any questions about chiropractic please feel free to e-mail me.
Your snippity little post, of course, doesn't respond to anything. Watch their video clip from their show. It's a perfect example of what this nonsense is really all about.
I've seen it. They're idiots who don't know what they're talking about. It's easy to take pot shots at stuff. It's harder to actually take the time to learn about it. The difference between you and me is that I'm the one who's got a clue here. Now go take your pills and shut the hell up.
What's the dc stand for, Delusion Central? Your posts are a more magical and much funnier comedy act than Penn & Teller's. Hell, they did a piece where bozos in a mall actually believed they were feeling better after being rubbed by demagnetized magnets.
Placebo doesn't explain the visually and measurable changes I get on post x-ray. It doesn't explain postural correction. I guess the 20 million people who enjoy chiropractic care - all of the pain relief that they received was placebo. Bottom line is that a chiropractor can't help everybody. But then again, neither can an M.D.
The Penn & Teller bit is mostly disputing the benefits of doing chiropractic treatments on babies and animals and not about doing it on adults, although they do question the aspects that go beyond treating back and neck pain.
what the heck u guys talking about with arm rotation and elbow crease differences? Ive looked at vid over and over and cant see any difference? There is no difference!!
Please write to Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, State Capitol Building, Sacramento, CA 95814 and request that he veto SB-801. You may also contribute to Californians to Protect Chiropractic Patient Rights, 1600 Sacto' Inn Way, Ste. 106, Sacto' CA 95815. Thank you for your action!
What occurs after adjusting the subluxated vertebrae is a normalizing of self perception allowing her body to properly perform the arm raise. Chiropractic is greater than neuroscience.
There is no need to argue. 95% of those who have been treated know it's a wonderful thing. When the non-believers are in enough pain they'll come for treatment too. That's how most of my patients find there way here.
People who try to bash chiropractors are morons by the way. Its just common sense that shit out of alignment causes problems. Putting them back into place solves problems. It really is that simple.
Very cool. I may use this with my patients or in a furutre video
PureChiropractic 1 year ago
Folks! jvelos is a medical troll. Please ignore his posts in hopes he will go away. Go Chiropractic!
chiropractic47 1 year ago
Doc always remember, " Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds" - Einstein
Continue spreading the Chiropractic philosophy!
CanyonPalms 2 years ago 3
Symptoms do not indicate vertebral subluxation. I did not say that manipulation will temporarily fix "vertebral subluxation", please do not misquote me. I thought you were genuinely interested but you are not even taking the time to read properly. I can only assume you have non interest in learning but seek only to fuel your bigotry. If you are not going to listen, then further dialogue is pointless.
siking1962 2 years ago
Then what indicates vertebral subluxation and what is up with the use of x-rays in chiropractic? And if its not a temporary fix...what is it? what is the need for subsequent manipulation? What is the need for continuous manipulation of the entire spine?
jvelos3 2 years ago
I do not represent of speak for other chiropractors. I sold my X-Ray machine years ago due to disuse. I never manipulate the same thing twice but changing the function of one area alters body function so that other compensations may need attention. I don't know of any chiropractors who advocate continuous manipulation, we need to sleep occasionally. Chiropractic is about removing nerve interference much more than it is about manipulation. Nerve interference can be seen on the video above.
siking1962 2 years ago 4
jvelos, only when you become a long term reciepient of chiropractic will you reach your answers on chiropractic; subluxation?, x-rays?, long term benefits?, wellness care?
chiropractic47 2 years ago
jvelos3, you have excellent questions regarding chiropractic care. However due to your allopathic upbringing...symptom assessment and supression, further introspection thus understanding of chiropractic definitely requires you to check your medical guns at the door. It is imperative for you to utilize chiropractic in a corrective then wellness atmosphere. From this vantage point you will definitely come to understand the immense logic, effecacy, and safety of CHIROPRACTIC!!! I was once a medic.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
You want to know why you'd visit a chiropractor twice? Why you'd get an adjustment a second time? Why would you put a bandaid on your cut fingure? You have obviously cut it before and put a bandaid on it then, no need to fix the duplicate injury in your eyes eh Einstein?
DraftMasterJohn 1 year ago
jvelos3 is a medical troll who visits numerous chiropractic videos.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
So you are telling me that other than the symptoms patients complain about...you have no other indications for "vertebral subluxation"? All you know is that manipulation will temporarily fix "vertebral subluxation"?
jvelos3 2 years ago
It's about time you wondered about this. You can only see the what your technology allows you to see. You cannot see protein transcription or other intracellular activity, and imaging only ever show you effect, not cause, that's why there is so much medical ignorance so that 95% of disease is classified as etiology unknown.
You have any evidence that manipulation does not increase afferentation?
siking1962 2 years ago
Youtube not posting most of my replies, cannot determine reason.
siking1962 2 years ago
again with the abuse??
siking1962 2 years ago
Youtube failing to display my posts
siking1962 2 years ago
What I gather from all these discussions is that chiropractors in general lack the proper exposure to medicine.
DCs are so quick to label medicine as bad/chiropractic will cure everything...then when presented with cancer, diabetes, bacterial infection, etc....they quickly edit their thinking and say "yeh i guess medicine is good for that...but that is it". This mindset clearly shows that you have not thought this all the way through. You simply are not aware of all facets of healthcare.
jvelos3 2 years ago
No, we have the proper exposure, we just choose to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. You think that cancer, diabetes and bacterial infection are medical successes? If you had said trauma and emergency medicine then fine. But the cemetaries are filled with patients who trusted their disease to doctors who did not understand and therefore failed to address it's cause. Even mainstream media can see this. (search mayer pharma on youtube) Why can't you?
siking1962 2 years ago
What is your treatment protocol for genetic disorders, HIV, wound care, bacterial infections (meningitis, etc.), birth, apendicitis, fever, cancer?
jvelos3 2 years ago
Only a doctor could want a "treatment protocol" for birth! My "treatment protocol" for any condition is always "find and eliminate the cause" because unlike modern medicine, I do not believe that disease is caused by bad luck. There is always a cause. And I strengthen any weak links because in a biological system the body is only as strong as it's weakest link. When poor management results in overwhelming disease, I refer for medical care. I am not stupid, reckless or "zealous" in my views.
siking1962 2 years ago 2
abnormal births can happen...hence the usefulness of ultrasound. What do you do if an HIV+ mother gives birth to a child? etc. again oversight on your part.
jvelos3 2 years ago
You want a chiropractic cure for HIV? If I were an Armed Forces junkie wouldn't that be not too dissimilar to sending a bomber in to do the job of a fighter?
DraftMasterJohn 1 year ago
@jvelos3 I can't believe someone as busy and in demand as Simon King is taking time out to reply to your pharmaceutically brainwashed posts.
All I can say is since following Simon's protocals my clients recovery rate has doubled and the time between their check ups has more than doubled, to top it off I still often find there's nothing to fix during their check up. No good for my practice but great for my clients. Surely that is not placebo! As I am still a Chiropractor as same as before!!
tubeflashinko 1 year ago
so how exactly does manipulation work?
jvelos3 2 years ago
And yes the CNS can generate spontaneous output...what are dreams? thoughts?
"mainly the muscle spindles" This may or may not be true but what does this have to do with the current discussion? The continous input is so you can feel where your body exists in space.
jvelos3 2 years ago
What is your reference for the CNS producing spontaneous output? Can you prove that dreams and thought don't have afferent input as their origin?
No, you have fallen for the classical explanation of proprioception. The main reason we need body position sense is to control muscle tone. You really need to read my book - Live Without Pain: A New Theory on What's Wrong With you And How to Fix It.
siking1962 2 years ago
can you prove that a dream has afferent input as their origin? How about thought?
I understand the need for body position but what does that have to do with anything we are talking about? I am not talking about the video...I am having a discussion with chiropractic47...sorry if I was being off the topic of the video.
jvelos3 2 years ago
If brain activity doesn't come from afferent input, where does it come from?
If you can't see the relevance then you have failed (or refused) to understand the basis of neurology and chiropractic47's position. Perhaps if both of you were less abusive and more respectful, something good could come of this. You both behave appallingly. Be curious. Professionals and politicians who think they know everything are dangerous.
siking1962 2 years ago
I understand what you are saying...maybe im just being pedamtic but my point is that chiropractic47's statement that fixing subluxation...the action of relieving nerve stress...is the source of efferent excitation. This statement is not saying that by relieving stress afferent signals can be processed efficiently and result in improved efferent signal. His statement is wrong. Again relieving stress on a nerve will not CAUSE excitation...but it will ALLOW excitation.
jvelos3 2 years ago
I don't believe that an adjustment relieves nerve stress and I refuse to re-read all the abuse to check that he said it. What i have found is that various irritations, subluxation being one of them, cause persistent muscle inhibition which causes deafferenatation. Restoring vertebral mobility and removing metal from the body removes the inhibition, increases afferentation which improves efferentation, further enhancing mobility. You can see this in all my videos.
siking1962 2 years ago
But see, you still believe in the subluxation, an entity that has no basis in fact. If what you and others are saying is true, it ought to be visible on imaging studies and cadavers. But it never is. How is that possible?
cowy1 2 years ago
Imaging studies? Cadavers? Great. Tell you what. Next time there is a car accident, go out and take a photo of the accident. You can see all the damage in great detail, but you can't tell whether the driver fell asleep, or there was oil on the road, or the bend was too tight. Next time your car needs fixing, take it to a mechanic and ask him to X-Ray the engine, or put a drop of oil under the microscope. Sorry, your model is broken, your thinking is flawed, but you are welcome to your opinions.
siking1962 2 years ago
"you can't tell whether the driver fell asleep"
You can, at least you can imply that by analysis of the accident.
The only "model" i see here broken and flawed thinking is yours. Because clearly your little example was pittyfull.
1) you clearly did not reffute my claim. Thanks for proving my claim.
2) wrong. I base my opinions upon evidence. In knowledge which survived peer-review and empirical testing. You sure base your opinions on your made up evidence (where is it?)
transtlantic 2 years ago
Siking,
So what you are saying is, in effect, to completely disregard critical analysis? If you can't or are unwilling to analyze what you are doing that is fine, but don't expect anyone who knows anything about the human body to take you seriously.
As an aside, car parts and entire engines are routinely X-Ray'd and CT'd; engine oil is often put under a microscope and examined. Scientists do this to fully understand what is happening, the techs don't. I hope you can see the parallel.
cowy1 2 years ago
The only point proven here is that beliefs are based on conformity to a paradigm, not on evidence. Read Mendelsohn, Gary Null, Mercola or Mike Adams. You will continue to practice destructive medicine because you test faulty assumptions the wrong way, and I will practice constructive medicine, where only treatments that strengthen and make whole will be considered. As with all religions, there is only one truth, the trick is to peacefully co-exist until it is known.
siking1962 2 years ago
what? lol....
"beliefs"?!?! "belief" has no part in science. Science is about understanding and empirical observations! its all about describing, understanding, write a method, publish and let peers review what you do!
gary null has ZERO scientific education.
mercola lost his license due to malpractice (focus on he DID damage patients)
Mike adams also has ZERO scientific education.
ALL are quacks!!!
you don't test "assumptions", you test hypothesis and theories.
transtlantic 2 years ago
"As with all religions, there is only one truth"
lol, another very good example of ignorance. I can only assume you were homeschooled or gave up during highschool....
come on.... religion has only one truth? lol, so why there are thousands of gods and "holy books"? i tell you, because religion is not science! Religion is blind to reality. Its primitive.
Science test your ideas and describe what's true or not. people like mercola are frauds!!! they have been proved as such.
transtlantic 2 years ago
People who are engrossed in their paradigm can't see the fallacies upon which it is based. You should read Thomas Kuhn. If you can't see that medical science is a religion based on false assumptions then you will have to wait for my next book "The Medical Delusion". I know your paradigm backwards and reject almost all of it as flawed and illogical. You cannot know mine. Remember all of my patients are medical failures. While yours is the number one cause of death in the US, mine hurts no-one.
siking1962 2 years ago
How is it possible that chiropractic can hurt no one? If "subluxation" can be removed...in the wrong hands can't it be also introduced?
jvelos3 2 years ago
I'm sure that manipulation in the wrong hands, or at the wrong time, or with the wrong patient can do harm. As far as we know, chiropractic subluxation can not be induced by manipulation and to think that such a thing is possible is to misunderstand the subluxation. My statement was that my paradigm is harm-free and so far my practice is too. But my paradigm is not typical of chiropractic and I do not represent chiropractic although i am a chiropractor.
siking1962 2 years ago
how can you say that chiropractic subluxation cannot be induced by manipulation? If you can shift or manipulate the spine one way then you can surely shift it another way.
I am willing to propose that since chiropractic subluxation cannot be induced by manipulation then it does not exist.
jvelos3 2 years ago
so you are not a typical chiropractor yet you advocate traditional chiropractic manipulation?
I must have missed it but I could not find the response to my question. How does manipulation work? how does it fix vertebral lesions? as per your previous post...which for some reason I cannot find now. And how come these lesions can't be found through imaging?
jvelos3 2 years ago
A subluxation is not a bone out of place, so it cannot be caused by manipulation or seen on imaging. Traditionally it is a lesion (vertebral lesion) associated with nerve interference. Nerve interference could be increased or decreased afferentation. Manipulation might cause increased afferentation which from a normal state would be temporary and transient, much like exercise, but from a fixated or low
siking1962 2 years ago
affterention state, the input would be therapeutic in that increased afferents = increased efferents (the myotatic reflex) and increased efferents = increased muscle tone which further increases afferents leading to a positive reinforcing therapeutic loop. Other reference in my book show how this can decrease pain, improve mobility, misnimise osteoarthritis and affect internal organ function.
siking1962 2 years ago
Medicine as the #1 cause of death is a red herring; a more valid question would be, "How many more people would die if we sent them all to chiropractors?"
cowy1 2 years ago 2
6 jumbo jets falling out of the sky every day is a red herring? An equally valid question would be "How many less people would die if we sent them all to chiropractors" answer - far less. Just sign up to recordyourresults and I'll prove it to you. Let's audit your patient outcomes and we'll see who does the most good/harm. Several papers show that less people die when doctors go on strike.
siking1962 2 years ago
I can only laugh at your posts....
you clearly can't even understand the very people you post here. Thomas Kuhn does not support your quackery. IF you were to apply the scientific method to chiropractice (which has been done), you would clearly see that chiro is no better than a placebo. It's empirical! You should read David Hume and Kant for a start. Phylosophy is best understood if you learn from the past to the present.
transtlantic 2 years ago
You don't understand Kuhn's assessment of scientific revolution. Can't go back to high school science class, already did a masters degree in Health Services Research at University of Sheffield.
siking1962 2 years ago
I actually understand Kuhn's assessment of scientific revolution and even its background history for the development of his ideas! You the one completly misinterpreting his thoughts. You should always review the critique of a philosopher btw.
1) you didn't tell if you actually done a science class at highschool
2) a masters degree in HSR does not give you any insight into any clinical science. You must have missed this optional: "Promoting Evidence-bsed Health Care"
transtlantic 2 years ago
Oh no, I have studied Evidence-based medicine from it's outset and often Reference Bandolier and David Sackett. But my advice to anyone who goes to a doctor/chiropractor or health professional who says they practice evidence-based medicine is RUN! The evidence of averages has NO power to determine the outcome for any one individual. The day that medicine forgot that everyone matters, was the day that science got in the way of good doctoring. I know you are never going to agree with this. Tough.
siking1962 2 years ago
No, I missed the option "get so arrogant you never critique your own beliefs". Next time you take your car to a mechanic, make sure he has a double-blind placebo controlled trial that proves that changing the exhaust will treat the knocking noise in the engine. All medical science is based on the false presumptions that we know nothing about the subject, nothing about the problem and no clue as to the treatment. That is the current medical scientific paradigm and the reason it is so inefficient.
siking1962 2 years ago
Siking,
Your posts indicate an extreme ignorance about the efficacy of EBM, actual (not imaginary) pathophysiological processes and the ability to have humility in the face of real disease. Much like religious fanaticism, your belief system is unflexible and your ignorance intractable. I feel sorry for you, your family and anyone exposed to your "expertise".
cowy1 2 years ago
An me, likewise, for yours. My family are disease-free, have never seen a medical doctor (except for 2 fractures, I have no problems with emergency medicine) and take no medication. How are yours doing?
siking1962 2 years ago
Oh, and by real disease, you mean those disease processes you do not understand, which apart from scurvy, pellagra and a few other nutrient deficiencies, would be pretty much ALL of them. Show many any one person who has been saved or cured by EBM. You can't. You hide behind EBM because of your ignorance. You probably give BP medication even though less than 2% will benefit from it and antidepressants even though the EBM you say you follow shows they are no better than placebo.
siking1962 2 years ago
Yes ... so where does efferent activity come from? If you say the brain then you have failed to think it through. The CNS has no ability to spontaneously generate output, it is merely a processing centre for afferent input which starts in the peripheral nervous system, mainly the muscle spindles which spontaneously produce afferent input at 50Hz at rest. This is the major electrical generating system for all brain activity. Neuroscience p365.
siking1962 2 years ago
Yes...and what is your point? Can you show me proof that afferent nerves from no cranial sources can adversely effect the efferent cranial nerves? Can you show me how fixing a subluxation can excite efferent nerves as chiropractic47 said?
jvelos3 2 years ago
Proof that fixing a subluxation improved efferent nerve activity visible on this very video and all my youtube videos. Evidence for cranial nerve effects more difficult to produce and not my specialty although Carrick has some on blind spot analysis (JMPT).
siking1962 2 years ago
no no no...chiropractic47 specifically said fixing subluxation would excite efferent nerves. According to him by relieving the pressure from the nerve causes the nerve to excite and produce a signal. I understand what you are saying but I am referring to chiropractic47's failed attempt at sounding smart which to his demise...showed how dumb he really is.
jvelos3 2 years ago
And that is exactly what this video shows. Please stop the personal insults and abuse for a fellow professional. We are all here to help patients. You should observe your local chiropractor sometime. Better still, talk to their patients. Maybe he/she is not what you think they are.
siking1962 2 years ago
If you look back at all my posts I have tried my hardest to stay away from personal insults. After repeated abuse from chiropractic47...I snapped and joined in.
jvelos3 2 years ago
I condemned all abuse, not just yours. Apology accepted.
siking1962 2 years ago
siking1962.
I stand by what i said before. Chiropractice is utter nonsense.
1) you did not learn the same as a medical doctor.
2) you repeatdly assume conclusions by default
3) the very basis of your talk is wrong. the brain can generate spontaneous activity, metal does not influence neurons (vague), restoring vertrebal mobility will not remove the "muscle inhibition" (whatever that is) - but hey, prove me wrong.
present evidence that chiro works, science paper pls
transtlantic 2 years ago
Oh, don't worry, I will. Mead et al is evidence.
1) you're right, we didn't learn omnipotence, how can you possibly know what I learned.
2) I base my opinions on my evidence and experience, as you do.
3) Prove spontaneous out put of CNS (no such thing as "brain dead?", If I stick a knife in your back, you will flinch so metal does influence neurons (not so vague) and the video above proves you wrong. But no evidence will "conquer" your bias, because you believe in a false and broken paradigm.
siking1962 2 years ago
3) lol, again you keep making absolutly no sense. Which is funny and sad at the same time. Your video is useless, it does not compare a patient with the same exact problem who took a placebo pill (for example).
The metal did not influenced the neurons. The knife ripping apart the different layers of tissue, , neurons and blood vessels trigger chemical signals that will produce pain. The"flinch"is a response that can vary from person to person. A bone perfurating could do the same exact response
transtlantic 2 years ago
3) continued.... Again your stupid example of a "knife" is useless. It could work with anything doing the same action: "to stick something in your back". Metal is not the "influence". so again - you were vague and shown how ignorant you are.
Spontaneous out put of CNS, simple google search, to help you understand how simple it is to reffute ignorance like yours:
"Spontaneous brain activity causes 'unforced errors'", New Scientist.
Apply for a highschool science class please.
transtlantic 2 years ago
jvelos3, you drew first blood. I returned recently to discuss this video. You butted in on my post to another member with abusive trash. This kicked-in my resolve to regard you as a trash monger to be dealt with in the same manner. I observed you behaving in an adverse manner when commenting at other chiropractic videos. You despise chiropractic before understanding the subject matter regarding neurophysiology and chiropractic. Typical of a die-hard medic.
Calm down.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
so you chose to end this heated discussion with more insults?
jvelos3 2 years ago
Thank you siking1962. I wrote afferent to brain efferent out.. jvelos3 believes we are not aware of his attempt to bamboozle the discussion to slant it his way.
Great videos! and keep up the great work.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
Chiropractic is a business. The bread and butter is manipulation. It is in their best interest to keep patients coming in for a lifetime of manipulation. More patients = more money.
jvelos3 2 years ago
Hey! That a boy. You got one thing correct. "More patients= more money"
I was just about to write you off as hopeless.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
You're funny. Yes Chiropractors spend 5 years in University Education, doing as many hours in all the same subjects as MDs (except pharmacology and surgery, we do biomechanics and nutrition) and then we carefully and successfully treat thousands of happy patients, and yes, we get paid for it. Your point is that doctors, surgeons, pharmacists and drug companies only work as a public service???
siking1962 2 years ago
Chiropractic47's point was that MD's are in a huge conspiracy with pharm companies to keep patients coming back for more drugs and care. My point is that I can say the same about chiropractic...so its failed argument.
jvelos3 2 years ago
Please take your myopic and hysterical ranting elsewhere and buy my book if you want to learn how afferent input drives most neurological and glandular function (unless you know of any brain area that spontaneously generates efferent output.) All nervous system function is afferent generated. But in 23 years, I have yet to cure deafness so I have no idea if and how DD did it.
siking1962 2 years ago
What are you talking about?? Afferent = towards brain/input. Efferent = away from brain/output.
jvelos3 2 years ago
Everyone but Pus Brains (jvelos3) here got it. While Pus Brains masturbates, let's put it in more generalized terms that may be used at different levels of the spine (Meric System):
Vertebral subluxations do not cause direct irritation to the cranial nerves, but irritation to afferent fibers of the sympathetics which in turn influence the thalamus to influence the CNS to give direction to cranial nerves.
Anyone can understand this...well except Pus Brains.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
Michael Jackson entrusted his health to a "medical" cardiologist, who while himself engrossed in the drug world he was indoctrinated into...inadvertantly killed him with IVs' of various narcotics in an effort to alter and manipulate Michaels' body.
Nature provided Jackson with all he needed, however. years ago while under extreme duress and anxiety, he became influenced by and with medicine.
Imagine Michael J. here today, happy and doing what he does best, while practicing holistic care?
chiropractic47 2 years ago
you forget that this is what michael jackson wanted. regardless of who aided him be it medical doctors or drug dealers...he wouldve have gotten his high. It's called personal responsiblity people.
And way to take advantage of a dead guy for your own initiative.
jvelos3 2 years ago
Fuck you sick bastard! Michael J. Was extremely influenced by the MD's believing they had a viable path for his health.
We make our choices based upon what we see, hear, and are taught. Mike learned drugs were his best choice from MD's. Now he's dead from a deadly drug cocktail fashioned by his MD fucker!
Go to your room and shoot up what mike was given and have a nice day fucker!
chiropractic47 2 years ago
I'm the sick bastard?? You are the one using MJ's death for your own benefit!
jvelos3 2 years ago
ahh yes...because relieving these subluxation would "EXCITE" the afferent fibers. ludicrous statement.
you are just talking out of your ass. show me proof than any afferent fibers going to the thalamus would adversely affect cranial nerves.
jvelos3 2 years ago
Show me proof you could learn and accept what I teach you.
This is where you fail jvelos3. Your such a medical whorehound your ears and brain are conjested with deadly medical chemistry to whatever ails ya.
You will either die young or kill someone in practice.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
Your ignorance is comical.
Still haven't shown evidence for cancer causing antibiotics nor have you shown how afferent nerves to the thalamus can adversely affect cranial nerves.
In your 25,000pv/year...how many blind and deaf people have you cured Doctor?
jvelos3 2 years ago
How many blind and deaf people cured by medicine? NADA!
Now do you feel foolish? Right, a no-go for medicine.
Show me evidence that copious antibiotic use doesn't cause cancer.
Show me evidence that the efferents don't stimulate cranial nerves.
The doctor now must see patients. Think about your destructiveness to yourself. Come back when you completed some research into the efficacy of chiropractic. It is there in multitude. Learn my young man! Your ignorance makes you a bore.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
Much of the legally blind and deaf have been helped by the use of lasik, eyeglasses, and hearing aids.
antibiotic use is the highest its ever been while cancer is on the decline.
The lack of deaf and blind cured by chiropractic is evidence enough that afferent nerves don't affect cranial nerves. Efferent (as you said in your post) nerves are nerves going away from the brain which encompass cranial nerves.
Any other questions? I am happy to debunk anything you learned at Life chiro school.
jvelos3 2 years ago
You're a fool and foul.
Cancer is on the rise while WHO is incorrect, if this is where you came acroos cancer declination.
Look around fool. Cancer and diabetes is on the rise and pandemic.
A debunker your not. A scum bag you are.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
There's a recent article from the American Cancer Society titled "Cancer death rate steadily declining". Also the 2009 report has nice graphs showing a decline in overall cancer since 1990.
Don't you feel stupid.
Any other questions? I am happy to debunk anything you learned at Life chiro school.
jvelos3 2 years ago
Dear Asshole, We (collegues) read the ACS article. The ACS is a private not for profit organization (company) that has one of the largest money raising systems the world has ever known. To procure money to operate its yearly multibillion budget, the ACS has a strategy to delcaring success in one form or another. Cancer has not declined.
The ACS does'nt want a "cure" for cancer. Like the pharmaceutical companies jobs are at stake. Yes, the ACS is a large independant business.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
It would be very hard for a very large public company to "fake" statistics from data available to the general public. Cancer is declining. Show data proving otherwise.
Any other questions? I am happy to debunk anything you learned at Life chiro school.
jvelos3 2 years ago
A company like the ACS can't fake statistics? Did AIG, Bernard Madoff fake statistics to make personal gains?
No futher reply to this question is needed. Case settled, you lose.
You will never debunk anything without learning how the bodys made and what it needs. You simply are a medic in training. You will debride bunions, clip fungus toenails, attend pharmaceutical symposiums; behave as a medical whore.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
The "data" AIG had was made by AIG...so faking it was easy. The data ACS has is open to the public...almost impossible to fake statistics because it would be sooo easy to see the real truth.
Show me statistics that show an increase in cancer.
Debride bunions??? I remove dead tissue from bunions??? You're making stuff up again to try and sound educated.
You still to state the link of cancer to antibiotics, rise in cancer, curing deaf/blind, and many more. I have yet to "lose" an argument.
jvelos3 2 years ago
I will translate what chiropracDICK47 said.
Adjusting the spine excites nerves going to the brain. These nerves influence the brain. The thalamus is a processing center for auditory transmission.
This is all he said....which is basically meaningless and tells us nothing. Cranial nerves (auditory, optic, and olfactory) stay in the cranium...they do not pass the spinal cord at all.
jvelos3 2 years ago
how did dd palmer cure harvey lillard's deafness?
jvelos3 2 years ago
Penis breath, weeks a go I gave you and the other bitch ample opportunity to find for yourselves: how the spinal adjustment affected hearing?
The adjustment changes the position of the vertebral joint, exciting spinal afferent fibers which influence the central autonomic, motor, and sensory centers: The inferior colliculus and medial geniculate body in the thalamus are relay nuclei from the cochlea to the superior temporal lobe of the ceebral cortex. Here... hearing is a special sense.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
Now, due to the severe limitations of "Penis Breaths' and "The Bith's cerebral cortex, we are not to be surprised that they are to recognize let alone understand the neuro- physiology I so graciously laid out for these two hemispheric deprived mental midgits. So folks, please try to find any kind of consideration to these two medical waste products when considering their futile and short sighted retort.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
ok folks...a little anatomy lesson. Auditory, olfactory(smell), and optical nerves are cranial nerves. They do not pass the spine at all!! why would they? Why would the optic nerve need to pass down the spinal cord then back up to the thalamus(cerebrum or brain)? They don't. Therefore spinal manipulation cannot "fix" cranial nerves.
jvelos3 2 years ago
"spinal adjustment excites afferent fibers" rediculous statement. That would a bad thing dumbass...think about it.
Explain in detail the specific afferent nerves that will affect the thalamus.
Everything you stated is so general its not even funny...you may sound smart to the average layman but to educated folk you just made yourself sound like a dumbass.
jvelos3 2 years ago
Excellent. The power of natural normal nerve transmission is nicely demonstrated here. Many comments below are from wonderfully allopathically trained individuals and I admire their knowledge - in their specific studies. But please reserve your comments for after you complete chiropractic philosophy and training in our completely separate field of health care.
drfriedrichs 2 years ago
Now I see what everyone is saying. The arm is externally rotated, I don't know why this guy can't see that.
cdawng 3 years ago
Mencken changed his mind many times, notably on the subjects of marriage and the American South. As far as I know he never successfully treated anyone for headaches, he couldn't prevent his wife dying from Tuberculosis and meningitis and he couldn't prevent his own stroke. Let us all be sceptical and insist that all people making claims "show me the results" (which is all I am doing) rather than resorting to ill-informed bias.
siking1962 3 years ago
Mencken:
"...it seems to me that the current coddling of the half-witted should be stopped before it goes too far if, indeed, it has not gone too far already. To that end nothing operates more cheaply and effectively than the prosperity of quacks. Every time a bottle of cancer oil goes through the mails Homo americanus is improved to that extent. And every time a chiropractor spits on his hands and proceeds to treat a gastric ulcer by stretching the backbone the same high end is achieved."
JohnnyFeng 3 years ago
Johnny? Johnn Feng? John if this is you, it's me, Butchy! Remember me man? We detoxed at drug rehab center together. I'm all cleaned up, how about you? Are you still having those bad headaches? Hey man, what are you doing on this YouTube forum?
Really looking forward to hearing from ya!
Butch
chiropractic47 2 years ago
Great job siking1962, funny how we have all these internet MD's. When are people going to understand this simple concept, the entire "traditional" medical approach is a BUSINESS, plain and simple. They don't make money unless they cut or keep you coming back for more meds. It is NOT in their best interest to CURE a patient. You are a customer, not a patient. Just to clarify, I am not speaking on life threatening circumstances or emergency surgeries.
vinceragano 3 years ago 2
are you saying chiro don't work for money? that they work on people that don't have disease? they work for what then? And how do you know chiro cure anything, is there any evidence about it?
What is funny is that the science behind life threatening circumstances and emergency surgeries will be the same for the practices you so dearly attack.
transtlantic 2 years ago
transtlantic, are you thinking about those people who abused and ignored their bodies to the point of crisis? They do require crisis (medical) intervention at this point...while continuing with chiropractic care.
You may be confused with the continued application of chiropractic spinal adjustments and lifestyle counseling (includes every subject) when a person already ran themselves down? Continue to apply and educate while they work through crisis to reach wellness and maintain wellness. Good
chiropractic47 2 years ago
chiropractice is total quackery
But please, feel free to prove otherwise. Present a large double blind trial with a control group. to see if chiropractice brings any benefit at all. I know the results of what has been done: chiro = placebo
transtlantic 2 years ago
quackery eh? And you firmly believe your not a "Transgender"?
Show me a double blind study proving your not a transgender...Miss transtlantic.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
? you clearly have no idea what a scientific study is....
I'll teach you:
Arch Dis Child. 2002 May;86(5):382-4. N Engl J Med. 1998 Oct 8;339(15):1013-20.
Plus the known fact that chiros killed so many people due to spinal manipulation, that now all of you quacks are now not allowed to perform such manipulation.
Remember, you moron, chiroquackery is useless
transtlantic 2 years ago
last week i paid $1500 for malpractice insurance and today "legally" adjusted 40 people. Saw 400 pv this week. You? you saw no one and will never help anyone with drugs and surgery. You? you are worthless.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
lol, just 400 people? lol, right... "so many people". I can also "see" people. What i do is what counts. I help people with "drugs and surgery".
I woul very laugh at you if you tried to explain how to treat a ruptured apendix without drugs and surgery. Or let's say pediatric complications, burns, cuts, cancer,.... come on.. you can't be that dumb...
chiroquackery is quackery, prove me wrong using evidence, you "back rubbering massagist"
transtlantic 2 years ago
Now I will take advantage of your stupid question for me, which will simultaneously undermine and indict your medical existance.
Ruptured appendix, cancer, etc...while referred to an emergency room,, a chiropractor will address: why opportunist pathogens or malignant neoplasm?: Subjected to antibiotic therapies that destroyed their protective beneficial bacterial flora, allowing opportunistic pathogens to proliferate? Did you know that medications including antibiotics are linked to cancer?
chiropractic47 2 years ago
The most credible evidence behind the huge surge in opportunistic infections and malignancies is: medical intervention.
The best place for medicine is in the emergency room and as an adjunct to chiropractic corrective and wellness care. Nuff said...and FUCK YOU!
chiropractic47 2 years ago
The most credible evidence behind people not dying: medical intervention!!!
opportunistic infections due to medical practice. What about - huge decrease in deadly infections?
lol, relation between malignancies and medical intervention: Medical doctors make people live longer, therefore increase in risk of cancer due to old age.
Best place for a chiropracter: a Spa, doing massage/back rubbing, relaxing me, but with no manipulation, that's dangerous
transtlantic 2 years ago
All who read your response laughed...at YOU! The scientific evidence is blunt and against antibiotics!
Decrease in infections due to antibiotics? You ignorant medical whore! Now more than ever, antibiotics are less effective against pathogens. Shit your easy to tackle. Give me some meat, not bullshit!
Chiropractic...the fastest growing and most educated health care profession in the world (Grisanti Report) !
It has been reported you prey on young men in health spas....
chiropractic47 2 years ago
Pretty sure everyone is laughing at your responses chiropractic47...
jvelos3 2 years ago
Really? less effective? based upon what? care to present such evidence? Because i can overwhelm you with references to antibiotic efficiency. Just choose a microrganism and i'll show you an antibiotic with close to 100% efficiency.
Chiropractice? lol is actually decreasing in the next years its growth as more and more people realize how much quackery it is. "educated"? lol, using magnets and hand waving? what's that? :P
transtlantic 2 years ago
LOL, the quantity of ignorance and misconceptions posted by you is quite amazing... you really have no idea what you are talking about. none at all.
so i'll debunk it easily: when you give antibiotics, the adverse effects are known and can be controlled. Antibiotics are not "linked" to cancer. Please present such evidence. Notice that correlation is by no means causation.
transtlantic 2 years ago
WRONG again! The adverse events of antibiotics beyond what has been knownn have only just recently been uncovered. And the implications are becoming more serious and wide spread.
Again! You inadvertently gave me your neck to garrot!
chiropractic47 2 years ago
state these adverse affects. you always make a statement without facts. Its funny seeing someone so ignorant make a fool of themselves.
jvelos3 2 years ago
Prick licker...statins (otherwise known as cholesterol lowering drugs which don't work) are linked to cancer due to their instigation in producing angiogenesis (rogue development of blood vessels to feed neoplasms.
Too busy dispensing without checking the research?
Looks like someone leveled the playing field for the medical wastes products?
chiropractic47 2 years ago
statins...are not antibiotics.
you have done nothing but again show how dumb you are.
How did dd palmer cure harvey lillard's deafness??
Ill asnwer for you...he didnt. It is impossible for manipulation to have a positive affect on cranial nerves.
Looks like someone just crushed the basis of chiropractic philosophy.
jvelos3 2 years ago
Fuck you asshole! We were speaking of both antibiotics, statins, b-blockers, etc.
Wake up next time when you attempt to debate me dumb bitch!
chiropractic47 2 years ago
you specifically said antibiotics cause cancer. I responded to that post. You sir are a dumbass
jvelos3 2 years ago
Suck it!
chiropractic47 2 years ago
How did dd palmer cure harvey lillard's deafness??
jvelos3 2 years ago
lol..... chiropracter... you can't even name one antibiotic! hehe, that statins talk from you was quite funny. What an idiot.
that's what they teach you in chiro? They lie to you there. That's why you can never present any evidence that it works.
transtlantic 2 years ago
lol, "recently been uncovered"!?!?! LOLOL
Pharmacology, is the key word. Go learn what it is you idiot.
You can't do spinal "adjustment", 1) its illegal for chiro to do it 2) chiros doing it is dangerous 3) you are so stupid you can't define scientifically what is such "adjustment".
Keep insulting moron. But don't be so rude while you do the back rubbing at the spa.
transtlantic 2 years ago
Yo bro! The only who will "relax" you is Mary Palm and her five sisters!
Shit head! How you can live with yourself without a spinal adjustment is beyond comprehension. Fat, dumb, and stupid is no way to go through life son.
I can't even suggest you quit medical school to chiropractic school. Why fuck up chiropractic with you? I would never let you join us. You're medical waste.
Now I want you to stick your head down your pants and have a chicken dinner.
chiropractic47 2 years ago
Why do the viewers have to be so nasty? It should all be about what provides the patient the relief he/she needs? Whether chiropractic, osteopathy, physical therapy, even medicine. I am a chiro who believes we all need to quit being critical of the other and just do what each of knows to work for most of our patients. There are idiots in all professions I guess!!!
indychiro 3 years ago 3
Calm yourselves, docs!
Since when did you people become professionals at diagnosing people over the internet?
TheAwesomeBlossom 3 years ago
have to say, that I agreed entirely with Birch919's comments. I am untrained and even I saw the changes of movement pattern before I read her comments... seems as if eyes can tell you a lot if you use them!
cjclark38 3 years ago
Last comment. Manual therapy (some manipulations included) isgreat for some patients. PT's and Chiro's can both be great at treating patients' actual source of dysfunction, not just the malalignment that was almost always caused by an underlying problem such as poor motorcontrol/endurance/Ms length etc.
It's up to each PT and Chiro to do their FULL job based on the most current evidence. I have no doubt you are a good chiro, maybe great. This video simply puts doubt on your observational skills.
birch919 3 years ago
This shows absolutely no improvement in strength of any muscle...As I states, she recruits OTHER musclesto help(only in after) Mostly shoulder shrug.. BAD! esp. for future neck pain/headaches.. she also uses trunk SB and rot to help
And the STRONGEST theories as to why certain muscles in the spine (not shoulder- no evidence EVER suggesting this) are stronger right after a 'manip' is cause it corrects their line of pull... nothing to do with nerve insufficiency by pressure 'like that of a dime'.
birch919 3 years ago
Your derogatory tone and uninformed comments are highly unprofessional. I never said anything about nerve insufficiency. Please go back and study muscle physiology, especially the myotatic reflex. This young lady has not needed further treatment for this problem for 5 years - so don't accuse me of overservicing. This is just a real-life, real-world observation. stop bringing your bias and just observe.
siking1962 3 years ago
Bias? All I did was observe (correctly) as I All PT's and Chiro's should... something you still fail to be able to do, these simple observations (for a professional) as pointed out twice now you still choose to ignore.
And you're telling me to go back and study muscle physiology. Refer people to the study that proves any of your ridiculous points. Not a poorly made video that shows absolutely nothing except a HORRIBLE way in which to let a patient lift their arm overhead. You are being naive.
birch919 3 years ago
And again, this has nothing to do with the myotatic refex. You should read the current literature in peer reviewed journals rather than sticking and referring people to outdated texts. I am 4 years out of DPT school and have earned my Ortho specialist and completed a fellowship to be a CMT last year. I very well know all of the most current theories and what has been oven wrong. Of course you would know that cervical mob's have been proven just as effective as the manip you did and safer.
birch919 3 years ago
Also, if as a therapist/chiropractor you think her after attempt at raising the dumbbell overhead is any kind of a success... you need to go back to school. You are setting her up for so much more problems by for example letting her over use her upper trap for scap upwardrot., sidebend/rotate her trunk and neck while doing it, and not control all of the shear at the neck and even into the thoracic spine....
But then again for a chiro.. that just means more business for you in the future. HAHA
birch919 3 years ago
Um, that was one rep, with not that much weight. You're exaggerating.
trulyheaven777 3 years ago
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH In the after one..
She clearly externally rotates her arm just enough to clear the greater troch under the acromion process as she gets to 90 deg.
Not only does she do this... she ELEVATES her shoulder, sidebends her whole trunk away, and even a little sidebend in her neck AND gets trunk rotation, which makes it harder to tell the difference in rotation in the arm from before.. for a pathetic unskilled clinician. And she comes out of some neck flex to getextra motion too! wow...
birch919 3 years ago
Chiropractic does work!!!
lkhay 3 years ago
Last I checked, babies and animals had spines too. Maybe chiropractic simply works. Of course drewgooden33 must know a lot more about this topic than I do. After all, he watches TV.
ksmithdc 4 years ago
Anybody healthy or not cannot do full range of motion with their head in forward flexion
roszposa 4 years ago
Actually, thats not true. If there is nerve interference or a subluxation, parts of the body (ex. arm) can't receive the signal at full strength
tdearmond 4 years ago
actually, I can, and I don't have neck or shoulder problems, I'm not double jointed either.
Takaju 4 years ago
Penn and Teller I believe they had people investagate a little before putting that segment on the air
roszposa 4 years ago
I honestly believe that all of this tension is caused by prejudice created over a hundred years ago by those who feared that chiropractic would cause the billions in profits to decline between the medical profession and the pharmaceutical industries. Just as it hurt tobbacco companies once the word was out that it caused many respiratory problems.
aaronhaley1983 4 years ago
There is a place for all types of healthcare in this world. We need all of them whether it be medicine, surgery, acupuncture, or chiropracic. I think that these health professionals have lost there way. The main concern is supposed to be patient health holistically and not a pissing contest between professions. Medical doctors don't know everything just as chiropractic doctors don't. We should feel lucky to live in a country where we can recieve all types of different healthcare.
aaronhaley1983 4 years ago
I've noticed that those who oppose chiropractic do so in a very stubborn matter. No matter the evidence or amount of positive patient evaluations and satisfaction, they refuse to see. Those who are anti-chiropractic that are willing to shut up and truly be concerned with results and studies end up supporting chiropractic.
aaronhaley1983 4 years ago
After reading all of these comments, it just upsets me to see all of the tension between health professionals. It's common sense that the body has a natural capability to heal itself. Also it is common sense that without the proper functioning somatic and autonomic nervous system, how would cognition, movement, breathing, and life itself even exist.
aaronhaley1983 4 years ago
You're right, there is no difference. But put enough thoughts in people's heads, and they'll believe anything. I encourage you to watch the segment, it's available on YouTube, that Penn & Teller did about these quacks for their Showtime show "Bullshit!"
porkmatzoh 4 years ago
As IF Penn & Teller are experts in anything. They're a Vega$ comedy act. Treat their "opinions" accordingly. In the meantime, if you have any questions about chiropractic please feel free to e-mail me.
ksmithdc 4 years ago
Your snippity little post, of course, doesn't respond to anything. Watch their video clip from their show. It's a perfect example of what this nonsense is really all about.
drewgooden33 4 years ago 2
I've seen it. They're idiots who don't know what they're talking about. It's easy to take pot shots at stuff. It's harder to actually take the time to learn about it. The difference between you and me is that I'm the one who's got a clue here. Now go take your pills and shut the hell up.
ksmithdc 4 years ago
What's the dc stand for, Delusion Central? Your posts are a more magical and much funnier comedy act than Penn & Teller's. Hell, they did a piece where bozos in a mall actually believed they were feeling better after being rubbed by demagnetized magnets.
pounceperks1 4 years ago
Doctor of Chiropractic. As opposed to the GED you almost earned.
ksmithdc 4 years ago
Wow, good comeback, guy. But it conveniently still doesn't respond to his point. Placebo City. Most chiropractors and their patients live in it.
larrytucker1 4 years ago
Placebo doesn't explain the visually and measurable changes I get on post x-ray. It doesn't explain postural correction. I guess the 20 million people who enjoy chiropractic care - all of the pain relief that they received was placebo. Bottom line is that a chiropractor can't help everybody. But then again, neither can an M.D.
ksmithdc 4 years ago
Maybe you're an Osteopath!
pescador1 4 years ago
The Penn & Teller bit is mostly disputing the benefits of doing chiropractic treatments on babies and animals and not about doing it on adults, although they do question the aspects that go beyond treating back and neck pain.
todowntowner04 4 years ago
what the heck u guys talking about with arm rotation and elbow crease differences? Ive looked at vid over and over and cant see any difference? There is no difference!!
atroughan 4 years ago
Please write to Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, State Capitol Building, Sacramento, CA 95814 and request that he veto SB-801. You may also contribute to Californians to Protect Chiropractic Patient Rights, 1600 Sacto' Inn Way, Ste. 106, Sacto' CA 95815. Thank you for your action!
BackCarePlus 4 years ago
What occurs after adjusting the subluxated vertebrae is a normalizing of self perception allowing her body to properly perform the arm raise. Chiropractic is greater than neuroscience.
chirolife 4 years ago
Uhh ... OK.
porkmatzoh 4 years ago
There is no need to argue. 95% of those who have been treated know it's a wonderful thing. When the non-believers are in enough pain they'll come for treatment too. That's how most of my patients find there way here.
drcindielou 4 years ago
puleeeez...this over intellectualization is silly
infidel26 4 years ago 2
Do i ever agree.. shesh.
People who try to bash chiropractors are morons by the way. Its just common sense that shit out of alignment causes problems. Putting them back into place solves problems. It really is that simple.
ronnysoeberg 4 years ago