Pascal's wager depends on there not being as great a drawback to incorrectly believing as there is for inccorectly disbelieving, but that's not necessarily the case.The true god might not be any of the gods that humans have worshiped. He might be fine with skepicism and hate the worship of false gods. Then all the athiests will get to enjoy heaven while everyone else burns in hell. If I should swtich to Christianity in case Father TJ is right then he should switch to atheism in case I'm right.
Fr. TJ's utterances are not atypical. They are the words of a mind trapped by myth and superstition. Loud protestations of faith sometimes generated cognitive dissonance as an internal struggle for sense wages between logic and superstition. The fight for superstition is oft driven by fear of calamity, not Hell but social disorder. In his position if his faith is lost so is his career financial support for his family. The laity would be shocked too. ex-minister[dotorg
I'm discussing religion frequently with believers & the conclusion is ALWAYS the same with out fail.These guys have absolutely NO arguments!
It's insane.The world is about 85% theists and none of them holds a valid argument they can bring up in a serious conversation - "god is mysterious" "god wants u to believe without evidence" "if u pray,god will come to you but not always" "god died for ur sins" "what if i'm right"
these are NOT arguments.Somebody inform 6 billion people of this fact
TJ: You must know that many married Catholics who receive Communion each Sun. practice birth control without feeling guilt. The Church teaches they are committing mortal sins - 1st for using birth control and 2nd for receiving prior to confessing their mortal sin in Confession. When I was a kid, the confessionals lining both sides of the church were quite busy every Sat. after.noon. Nowadays most Catholics don't go to confession. Your "flock" are no longer sheep who blindly follow.
TJ: I'm familiar with "jackhammer" theology. I went to Catholic school back in the days when all the teachers were nuns, brothers and priests. We were advised of the many ways a Catholic child past age 7 ("age of reason") would go to Hell. Miss mass on Sun.or Holy Day, eat meat on Fri.(pre-sixties), fail to comply with the Lenten rules, etc, etc. According to Catholic teaching, Hell must be crowded with teenage boys who masturbated & suffered a fatal accident before getting to confession.
@gotohellfast,yes, it's very strange, isn't it?He tells me he will watch a video of mine documenting with Biblical locations the evil nature of the Biblical God;he reads these comments at a bunch of my videos (and many of the comments are very eloquent and right on target); etc.; and he then thanks me for strengthening his faith.What kind of mental gymnastics is at work here?Beats me.
@edwardtarte ,He just can't give in.It may be too much for him.
The magic castle would crumble , no safety-net (heaven,godly father figure) anymore,his job would be gone,his whole life would lead into uncertainty...
@edwardtarte Not mental gymnastics, just an expression of gratitude for the gifts I have. I know that not everyone has the gift of faith, but the dialogue we've had has helped me have a greater appreciation for the gift of faith that I've been given. I know that not everyone is good at piano, but you are. Not everyone is good at praying, but I am. I thank you for helping me realize what a blessing faith has been in my life.
@LoveBeingAPriest,TJ,let me be very specific.In multipleOT&NTpassages yourBiblicalGod endorses one human owning another as property:slavery(watch my video:search tarte slavery).Does your awareness of this strengthen your faith in an all-good God?If so,how?Are you willing to give a family Mass homily in which you tell your congregants that it is OK with their God for them to have slaves,and that slaveholders in the US Civil War were Biblically on the side of righteousness?
You have seen the (biblical) evidence that your god killed countless thousands of women & children, including infants, and that he was misogynistic, and advocated slavery (as did JC)....if all if this strengthens your faith, then you must use your faith as a method of denial! You must, if you can smugly ignore the outrageous atrocities committed by the very god and church you've submit yourself to. Is it fear that allows your faith to blind you to such an extreme?
@LoveBeingAPriest,you say you are good at praying.I asked you,based on your Jesus'unconditional promise that your God will grant your prayer petitions,to pray for immediate sight and hearing for Lauren,local deaf-blind girl.You answered simply that in heaven she will have sight and hearing.I asked you to pray that Buster,dog of one of my math students,who has cancer(Buster does),would be immediately cancer-free.That has not happened.Instead,he now has pancreatic disease also.(continued)
@LoveBeingAPriest (continued)Concerning Buster,you replied that he will be a happy healthy dog in Heaven.Really?Do dogs go to Heaven?I was taught in the seminary that there is no afterlife for dogs.But I asked you to pray that Lauren and Buster would be granted immediate good health,here on earth,now.And you say you are good at praying.If that is really true,your God will grant your prayer requests:your BiblicalJesus promised it.Did you choose not to actually pray as I requested?
I'm convinced that after Father TJ watched your videos, he had nothing to say in rebuttal to your points, so in defiance, he declares your efforts are only strengthening his faith.
I also noticed that in his 1st few exchanges with you, he couldn't resist insulting you, even when he'd apologize for 1 insult, in the same breath, he level another insult. I think he was angry at you for making him think about issues he's never considered before, and resented it.
@Cootabux, where you see defiance, I do not. Where you see insults, I do not. Where you see anger, I do not. Where you see resentment, I do not. Maybe I am blind. I do know that I have a tendency to presume goodness in others unless I have solid evidence to the contrary.
@edwardtarte Honestly...don't you think he is an hypocrite when he thank you for strengthened his faith? Is like when people say: "thank you Jesus for my suffering", or "even if you hate me and did that to me i wish you the best",(of course not).Religion is full of hypocrites and liars.
That's fine Edward. We all have to judge on our personal experiences and exchanges with those of an opposite belief, as they have to judge us.
The insults, anger, and defiance I detected, doesn't mean to me that TJ lacks good values or morals. I see it as a natural emotional reaction to his communicating with you and others of us who have likely made him think deeply about his beliefs, possibly for the 1st time.
TJ is now where you once were. I'm betting he's pondering that too.
Not only are the Catholic Church imposters, but they are also masters of illusion. In fact, so great are their feats of illusion, that they can make 70,000 people, atheists included, believe they have seen the sun dance upon the command of peasant children no older than 11. Surely this hasn't been equalled in the history of black arts and illusion.
It's so frustrating when they don't get it. To be honest I don't think he'd even conceive of the idea that he is wrong out of fear, perhaps you can ask him if he can at least take down his blinders?
@MistressArte How do I have 'blinders'? As a believer, I think I'm the one who chooses to hope, dream, and believe in something bigger than this world. I fail to see how that makes me blind. I choose to 'walk by faith, and not by sight.' I'm sorry that you see that as blinders.
@LoveBeingAPriest Don't you see? There is bigger something that wasn't made up by people who thought we were made out of mud & Eve a rib. Inside us are atoms that are bigger atomically then hydrogen.The only way that happens is through nuclear fusion which happens inside stars. This makes everyone not mud but the real materialization of stardust. That is a fact scientifically & beauty not found in faith but something bigger where you have proof. That's reality no magic required
@LoveBeingAPriest What makes you think that faith is some virtue by which you are vindicated in you beliefs? The fact is, faith is equivalent to being gullible. Your gullibility is causing you to believe that slavery and rape are ok in certain situations, that by praying you can actually heal seriously ill people, that by asking for forgiveness you can commit any heinous act, and that there is revenge for you waiting after death for those who disagree with you. I see no redeeming quality in that
This is not directed specifically at Fr. TJ, but at all religious people. Do you find that religious indoctrination is the most difficult kind of brainwashing to overcome because it is upheld by such a large part of the population?
I don't know about bewildered... back before my apostasy I probably would have thought that either their hearts were hardened, or that they hadn't studied the matter.
I would point out to him however that I had changed my beliefs on 3 core beliefs (God exists, God=Christian god, Bible=inerrant word of God), which demonstrably indicates I am open minded enough to change by beliefs given sufficient reason.
beyondbeyondness, well... the whole kneeling before god part might not go over so well, and some say the dogmatism would also be looked upon unkindly, but presuming that he was valorous, offered hospitality, etc... he might not be treated too harshly.
The whole hardened heart thing is a pretty lame argument... easy to claim, impossible to prove. I tend to ignore such comments and commenters (as they seem to think they know what's going on in my head better than I do). Who wants to argue with a person like that?
Please go easy on TJ. His livelihood is on the line. If he appears to concede anything he could find himself unemployed. Finding out that you've been in a delusion your whole life could possibly be very frightening. Don't expect a conversion. Getting an atheist ally in the pulpit would be something to strive for.
TJ, if you're losing your faith you should go to clergyproject. org for help.
When you compare religion with science you see that it is religion that won't change and science changes all the time. People criticize science for changing positions. Why can't they get it right the first time? It is the ability to change in the face of evidence that is the major strength of science. If you plot man's knowledge versus time you notice it going up exponentially starting when the scientific method was formulated, around Galileo and Newton's time. Dogma doesn't get you anywhere.
Hello Edward my friend...I will anxiously await FrTJ's sermon in a future video. I follow your posts religiously (pun intended,lol) . Thank you for continuing this amazing channel of yours, you have done so much to help and support your viewers and the Atheist community.
Dear subscribers to Mr. Tarte's videos, I did not mean to offend anyone with my 'jackhammer' comment. I am sorry if it has and I ask for your forgiveness. I do enjoy reading your comments on these videos and until this evening have been hesitant to comment on any myself. For what it is worth, I am praying for all of you and your families because I sincerely believe in what I do. Hope you all have a wonderful week!!! Fr. T.J.
@LoveBeingAPriest Thank you Fr TJ...apology accepted. I left the Church 2 yrs ago and became Atheist. As an ex Catholic, I extend a sincere invitation for you to message me anytime you wish. I am certainly open to any evidence you are able to present that would bring me (and/or my fellow Atheists) back to Christianity . In my case, possibly even bring me back to the Catholic Church
@LoveBeingAPriest Thank you for your kind thoughts. However, praying for someone is apparently somewhat harmful to them. Google for this: 'step prayer study'. It will lead you to a 2006 scientific paper (number 16569567 at PubMed). The conclusion: "Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."
Fr TJ, It is good to see you posting on the thread. I hope we will hear more from you. I can not speak for other atheists, as we are not a unified group and have only one characteristic in common, but I personally wasn't offended by your 'jackhammer' comment - only perterbed by your misconception.
I consider myself open to any persuasion about belief in God; I am merely unconvinced.
I think lack of openness is a requirement of the faithful, not the atheist.
Hi Fr TJ! Thanks for posting, I can understand that the prospect of posting here may have been daunting. Again, I commend you for being willing to engage in the conversation, discussion may not lead to agreement, but hopefully it leads to understanding. As for the jackhammer comment, I'm not offended by it, but it does seem a bit presumptuous. I think I'm a fairly open, if forthright and blunt person. Anyway, best to you and have a great day!
It seems ironic for someone to claim others are "hard-hearted" (which I take to mean "stubborn" and unwilling to open themselves to new views) while also claiming they will never change their mind on something no matter what.
What if Father TJ is wrong and Vishnu is the one true god? Has he hardened his heart to the love and joy of Vishnu? Can he see how funny that statement is when used with another god? My heart isn't hardened. If anything, I'm open to the possibility that a god may exist. If some clear, definitive evidence could be provided I would become a believer. But so far there isn't a shred of evidence, as unsettling as that is to believers.
Mr. Tarte, I just wanted to leave a comment saying how much I love watching what you have to say! I too am an Atheist and I feel the same way about only knowing god exists if he were to clearly show himself. Anyways, thank you for being here, its great to see fellow Atheists being so kind and open minded, especially towards religious folks.
If God exists then he has given us life which can be fun and terrible. I reckon when I die I will just stop functioning. There is no way I want to go heaven because there are no "challenges". In the same way "Hell" will not present any challenges. Overall the outcome is very boring.
Father TJ, there appears to be a massive misunderstanding as to what the bulk of Christians seem to think about atheism, put very simply, it's a lack of belief in god.(Edward states this very point at the start of ALL his atheism video's). We are not god haters, nihilists, satanists etc. Just as a Christian wouldn't believe in fairies and goblins, we just go one further, and add god to the list. If I see any credible evidence I will happily change my view.
If we don't have a consensus on what may or may not lie after death, at least we have nonhostile discussions with each side acknowledging the others' merits. It's definitely preferable to hurling abuse towards each other (which, in a weird way, was what inspired this dialogue between Mr. Tarte and Fr. TJ...)
Next time you are ask, “What if you are wrong” you might consider saying:
“Then I guess I have one of 30,000 possibilities, for there are 30,000 or more religions” For instance, if the correct one is the Jewish God, then I will go down to Sheol where it says, “As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up…” (Job 7:9)
I'm not bewildered by his Jackhammar comment. It just seems like more cognitive dissonance to me. It's something I've discussed earlier this month at my blog TheMidwestAtheist dot blogspot dot com (not to advertise, but there's too much for 500 chars here). In short, the idea is that (I posted this on the second video as well) we atheists can't be simply rejecting God because of lack of evidence. God is obvious (to him)! Therefore atheists must have a character flaw. It also boosts his own ego
@QuantumGh0st, yes, I told him that if he and I would sit down and list all the hundreds of gods in whose existence we do not believe because of lack of evidence, our lists would be identical except that I would have one more entry in my list than he would have in his; and that if he understood this, he could begin to understand why I do not believe in his god. But he has not responded to this. His blanket response so far is that he will not budge.
@edwardtarte My bet is that he realizes this is a trap. My inference from my experience has been that at a certain point theists stop talking because they recognize that their position is unsupported, but they are not willing to admit it. They are also unwilling to admit this situation, so they clam up.
I really irritates me how Christians use the term "hardened heart" to imply that we are heartless or cold-hearted if we don't believe what they do. Clearly Father TJ's heart is hardened toward other religions. He said himself that he won't budge.
That is always a risk. A person that fears his god, fears losing his faith. To protect himself he will cocoon himself in twisted versions of the very logic that threatens to free him. This fear of their god's punishment is a powerful hindrance to honest reasoning, but what kind of all-loving god would use fear to force others to worship him. What kind of all-loving god would require worship at all.
@edwardtarte I think that every engagement of this kind is one more chink out of the armor of theists. That's why everything you are doing is so important. The results may not appear for years, but I think that TJ will have doubts about his mythology and carry those with him.
@dkleitsch,I am offering to TJ,via the Internet,the same thing that was offered to me by reading,listening,discussion 2 1/2 years into my priesthood--namely,a challenge to rigidly-held Catholic beliefs and practicesThose who offered the challenge to me back then were,apart from my parents who gave me life and raised me,probably the greatest benefactors I ever had.They gave me the impetus to break free from a wasted life.Maybe that will help you to understand why I am communicating with TJ.
@dkleitsch, lying is by definition intentional deception. All the evidence I have says that TJ is sincerely convinced that he is imparting truth. This does not satisfy the definition of lying.
The refusal to budge in the face of contradictory evidence is the hallmark of religion. Just came from a 2 day debacle with two ppl who rejected evidence, straw manned arguments, failed to define their own position while claiming they did, and freely engaged in insults with posters who supported their own positions while showing the holes in the rligious position. The second I replied with an insult of my own I was castigated for abusing YT posters :D So sadly, I went full tilt.
It is obvious why TJ would defend his belief in this way. What is he supposed to do if he agrees that his religion is false? It would take an exceptionally brave person to do what you did, Edward. TJ, you seem to be in search of the truth....since you're keeping this dialog open. Your logical thinking will destroy your illogical faith eventually.
@okarab, I find no evidence whatsoever that TJ is in search of truth. Everything he has said to me indicates that he is of the same state of mind as I was during the first two and a half years of my priesthood: he is absolutely convinced that he has the truth.
"find no evidence whatsoever that TJ is in search of truth. "
No, but is he prepared to talk, and to do so in a none aggressive way. He does not try to dismiss & suppress dialogue in the way that Rev Lyle does. In that way, apart from being a better Pastor than Lyle (who it appears has difficulty dealing in a civil way with people who disagree with him), TJ can at least be talked to. It may take a long time, but the first step to opening your mind is surely to listen?
This is the key for so many religious people. It isn't the indoctrination, it isn't the ignorance, it isn't the illogic or immorality (though these all play a part)--it's the stubbornness and the unwillingness to admit when you are mistaken.
@LoveBeingAPriest That's just as problematic, as what you've said essentially equates to a firm conviction in that which cannot be proven, doesn't want to be proven, and is unprovable. This is not a passable explanation or justification for one's beliefs, especially when such beliefs carry the condemnation of people like Edward and myself to eternal torment literally for not being credulous enough to complacently accept superstitious nonsense for no good reason (i.e., "an unshakeable faith").
@LoveBeingAPriest Isn't, not budging is the same as saying "I am closed minded"? Why not even entertain the idea that what you believe might be false? Isn't it better to dwell in reality, rather than some fairy story you've been told? The dangerous thing about your position is you spread the same stories you've been told to others. Perhaps you need to keep the belief to stop the house from crumbling down (so to speak)? It is your career/life after all. Please give reality a go!
I would like to say to TJ that my heart is not hard. I think that I am a good person and I do try to make the world a better place. In my first language (portuguese), there is a proverb that says "the hearts of other people are a ground one will never step into". I do not think TJ's heart is hard because he does not agree with me. Actually, I do not know him so I can not make any assumptions on his feelings.
It's rather sad that the best argument for belief that Fr TJ has is Pascal's Wager. But, it does mean that we are winning, because their arguments haven't advanced a whit for millenia. Meanwhile, rationality and science continue to make people's lives demonstrably better.
When I viewed the comments, they were generally positive to TJ on a personal level, but critical of his beliefs. May FSM touch Fr TJ with his Noodly Appendage and bathe him in His Saucy Goodness!
TJ may I offer you a warm hug of reason. I feel that Mr.Tarte is correct in his reasoning in this video. If you were born in another part of the world you would surely be a member of another religion. Take care.
Who knows, all this may well start TJ on the road to sound sense and atheism. :)
tarantala111 1 week ago
Pascal's wager depends on there not being as great a drawback to incorrectly believing as there is for inccorectly disbelieving, but that's not necessarily the case.The true god might not be any of the gods that humans have worshiped. He might be fine with skepicism and hate the worship of false gods. Then all the athiests will get to enjoy heaven while everyone else burns in hell. If I should swtich to Christianity in case Father TJ is right then he should switch to atheism in case I'm right.
Chuck1863 2 weeks ago
Fr. TJ's utterances are not atypical. They are the words of a mind trapped by myth and superstition. Loud protestations of faith sometimes generated cognitive dissonance as an internal struggle for sense wages between logic and superstition. The fight for superstition is oft driven by fear of calamity, not Hell but social disorder. In his position if his faith is lost so is his career financial support for his family. The laity would be shocked too. ex-minister[dotorg
EmmittBrownBTTF1 2 weeks ago
Father TJ, my heart is soft. That's why I reject your theology.
evolve749 3 weeks ago
When you don't have any arguments, I guess the only option is threatening.
tubetib 3 weeks ago
I'm discussing religion frequently with believers & the conclusion is ALWAYS the same with out fail.These guys have absolutely NO arguments!
It's insane.The world is about 85% theists and none of them holds a valid argument they can bring up in a serious conversation - "god is mysterious" "god wants u to believe without evidence" "if u pray,god will come to you but not always" "god died for ur sins" "what if i'm right"
these are NOT arguments.Somebody inform 6 billion people of this fact
Samura1gamer 3 weeks ago
TJ: You must know that many married Catholics who receive Communion each Sun. practice birth control without feeling guilt. The Church teaches they are committing mortal sins - 1st for using birth control and 2nd for receiving prior to confessing their mortal sin in Confession. When I was a kid, the confessionals lining both sides of the church were quite busy every Sat. after.noon. Nowadays most Catholics don't go to confession. Your "flock" are no longer sheep who blindly follow.
Apacalola 3 weeks ago
TJ: I'm familiar with "jackhammer" theology. I went to Catholic school back in the days when all the teachers were nuns, brothers and priests. We were advised of the many ways a Catholic child past age 7 ("age of reason") would go to Hell. Miss mass on Sun.or Holy Day, eat meat on Fri.(pre-sixties), fail to comply with the Lenten rules, etc, etc. According to Catholic teaching, Hell must be crowded with teenage boys who masturbated & suffered a fatal accident before getting to confession.
Apacalola 3 weeks ago
"...thank you for strengthen my faith." That cracked me up!
Go Edward,go!
gotohellfast 3 weeks ago
@gotohellfast,yes, it's very strange, isn't it?He tells me he will watch a video of mine documenting with Biblical locations the evil nature of the Biblical God;he reads these comments at a bunch of my videos (and many of the comments are very eloquent and right on target); etc.; and he then thanks me for strengthening his faith.What kind of mental gymnastics is at work here?Beats me.
edwardtarte 3 weeks ago 5
@edwardtarte ,He just can't give in.It may be too much for him.
The magic castle would crumble , no safety-net (heaven,godly father figure) anymore,his job would be gone,his whole life would lead into uncertainty...
Somehow,I can understand him.
gotohellfast 3 weeks ago
@edwardtarte Not mental gymnastics, just an expression of gratitude for the gifts I have. I know that not everyone has the gift of faith, but the dialogue we've had has helped me have a greater appreciation for the gift of faith that I've been given. I know that not everyone is good at piano, but you are. Not everyone is good at praying, but I am. I thank you for helping me realize what a blessing faith has been in my life.
LoveBeingAPriest 3 weeks ago
@LoveBeingAPriest,TJ,let me be very specific.In multipleOT&NTpassages yourBiblicalGod endorses one human owning another as property:slavery(watch my video:search tarte slavery).Does your awareness of this strengthen your faith in an all-good God?If so,how?Are you willing to give a family Mass homily in which you tell your congregants that it is OK with their God for them to have slaves,and that slaveholders in the US Civil War were Biblically on the side of righteousness?
edwardtarte 3 weeks ago
LoveBeingAPriest
You have seen the (biblical) evidence that your god killed countless thousands of women & children, including infants, and that he was misogynistic, and advocated slavery (as did JC)....if all if this strengthens your faith, then you must use your faith as a method of denial! You must, if you can smugly ignore the outrageous atrocities committed by the very god and church you've submit yourself to. Is it fear that allows your faith to blind you to such an extreme?
Cootabux 3 weeks ago
@LoveBeingAPriest "...Not everyone is good at praying, but I am...."
Could you please explain your phrase in more detail?
gotohellfast 3 weeks ago
@LoveBeingAPriest,you say you are good at praying.I asked you,based on your Jesus'unconditional promise that your God will grant your prayer petitions,to pray for immediate sight and hearing for Lauren,local deaf-blind girl.You answered simply that in heaven she will have sight and hearing.I asked you to pray that Buster,dog of one of my math students,who has cancer(Buster does),would be immediately cancer-free.That has not happened.Instead,he now has pancreatic disease also.(continued)
edwardtarte 3 weeks ago
@LoveBeingAPriest (continued)Concerning Buster,you replied that he will be a happy healthy dog in Heaven.Really?Do dogs go to Heaven?I was taught in the seminary that there is no afterlife for dogs.But I asked you to pray that Lauren and Buster would be granted immediate good health,here on earth,now.And you say you are good at praying.If that is really true,your God will grant your prayer requests:your BiblicalJesus promised it.Did you choose not to actually pray as I requested?
edwardtarte 3 weeks ago
@LoveBeingAPriest
"Not everyone is good at praying, but I am"
Really, so how come you havent even cured even the simple cold
And havent even shown jesus in the flesh to all people
Looks like you talk to yourself [or what you call as praying] is in vain
Get well soon
devante11 2 weeks ago
edwardtarte
Edward,
I'm convinced that after Father TJ watched your videos, he had nothing to say in rebuttal to your points, so in defiance, he declares your efforts are only strengthening his faith.
I also noticed that in his 1st few exchanges with you, he couldn't resist insulting you, even when he'd apologize for 1 insult, in the same breath, he level another insult. I think he was angry at you for making him think about issues he's never considered before, and resented it.
Cootabux 3 weeks ago
@Cootabux, where you see defiance, I do not. Where you see insults, I do not. Where you see anger, I do not. Where you see resentment, I do not. Maybe I am blind. I do know that I have a tendency to presume goodness in others unless I have solid evidence to the contrary.
edwardtarte 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@edwardtarte Honestly...don't you think he is an hypocrite when he thank you for strengthened his faith? Is like when people say: "thank you Jesus for my suffering", or "even if you hate me and did that to me i wish you the best",(of course not).Religion is full of hypocrites and liars.
globalarte 3 weeks ago
edwardtarte
That's fine Edward. We all have to judge on our personal experiences and exchanges with those of an opposite belief, as they have to judge us.
The insults, anger, and defiance I detected, doesn't mean to me that TJ lacks good values or morals. I see it as a natural emotional reaction to his communicating with you and others of us who have likely made him think deeply about his beliefs, possibly for the 1st time.
TJ is now where you once were. I'm betting he's pondering that too.
Cootabux 3 weeks ago
@edwardtarte It's called cognitive dissonance.
beyondbeyondness 3 weeks ago
@edwardtarte
So let me get this straight Edward. You have according to TJ "have harden peoples hearts"
But TJ is not willing to budge, what does that say about his heart? Clearly not as open as yours Edward
devante11 2 weeks ago
@edwardtarte
Not only are the Catholic Church imposters, but they are also masters of illusion. In fact, so great are their feats of illusion, that they can make 70,000 people, atheists included, believe they have seen the sun dance upon the command of peasant children no older than 11. Surely this hasn't been equalled in the history of black arts and illusion.
beesh2180 1 week ago
It's so frustrating when they don't get it. To be honest I don't think he'd even conceive of the idea that he is wrong out of fear, perhaps you can ask him if he can at least take down his blinders?
MistressArte 3 weeks ago
@MistressArte How do I have 'blinders'? As a believer, I think I'm the one who chooses to hope, dream, and believe in something bigger than this world. I fail to see how that makes me blind. I choose to 'walk by faith, and not by sight.' I'm sorry that you see that as blinders.
Fr. T.J.
LoveBeingAPriest 3 weeks ago
@LoveBeingAPriest Don't you see? There is bigger something that wasn't made up by people who thought we were made out of mud & Eve a rib. Inside us are atoms that are bigger atomically then hydrogen.The only way that happens is through nuclear fusion which happens inside stars. This makes everyone not mud but the real materialization of stardust. That is a fact scientifically & beauty not found in faith but something bigger where you have proof. That's reality no magic required
MistressArte 3 weeks ago
@LoveBeingAPriest What makes you think that faith is some virtue by which you are vindicated in you beliefs? The fact is, faith is equivalent to being gullible. Your gullibility is causing you to believe that slavery and rape are ok in certain situations, that by praying you can actually heal seriously ill people, that by asking for forgiveness you can commit any heinous act, and that there is revenge for you waiting after death for those who disagree with you. I see no redeeming quality in that
KaHabbful 3 weeks ago
This is not directed specifically at Fr. TJ, but at all religious people. Do you find that religious indoctrination is the most difficult kind of brainwashing to overcome because it is upheld by such a large part of the population?
Christheatheist1 3 weeks ago
I don't know about bewildered... back before my apostasy I probably would have thought that either their hearts were hardened, or that they hadn't studied the matter.
I would point out to him however that I had changed my beliefs on 3 core beliefs (God exists, God=Christian god, Bible=inerrant word of God), which demonstrably indicates I am open minded enough to change by beliefs given sufficient reason.
JustAnotherMutant 3 weeks ago
What if when he dies and stands before Odin?
beyondbeyondness 3 weeks ago
beyondbeyondness, well... the whole kneeling before god part might not go over so well, and some say the dogmatism would also be looked upon unkindly, but presuming that he was valorous, offered hospitality, etc... he might not be treated too harshly.
JustAnotherMutant 3 weeks ago
The whole hardened heart thing is a pretty lame argument... easy to claim, impossible to prove. I tend to ignore such comments and commenters (as they seem to think they know what's going on in my head better than I do). Who wants to argue with a person like that?
jussts 3 weeks ago
Please go easy on TJ. His livelihood is on the line. If he appears to concede anything he could find himself unemployed. Finding out that you've been in a delusion your whole life could possibly be very frightening. Don't expect a conversion. Getting an atheist ally in the pulpit would be something to strive for.
TJ, if you're losing your faith you should go to clergyproject. org for help.
WarmWeatherGuy 3 weeks ago
When you compare religion with science you see that it is religion that won't change and science changes all the time. People criticize science for changing positions. Why can't they get it right the first time? It is the ability to change in the face of evidence that is the major strength of science. If you plot man's knowledge versus time you notice it going up exponentially starting when the scientific method was formulated, around Galileo and Newton's time. Dogma doesn't get you anywhere.
WarmWeatherGuy 3 weeks ago
Hello Edward my friend...I will anxiously await FrTJ's sermon in a future video. I follow your posts religiously (pun intended,lol) . Thank you for continuing this amazing channel of yours, you have done so much to help and support your viewers and the Atheist community.
atheistexchristian 3 weeks ago
Dear subscribers to Mr. Tarte's videos, I did not mean to offend anyone with my 'jackhammer' comment. I am sorry if it has and I ask for your forgiveness. I do enjoy reading your comments on these videos and until this evening have been hesitant to comment on any myself. For what it is worth, I am praying for all of you and your families because I sincerely believe in what I do. Hope you all have a wonderful week!!! Fr. T.J.
LoveBeingAPriest 3 weeks ago
@LoveBeingAPriest Thank you Fr TJ...apology accepted. I left the Church 2 yrs ago and became Atheist. As an ex Catholic, I extend a sincere invitation for you to message me anytime you wish. I am certainly open to any evidence you are able to present that would bring me (and/or my fellow Atheists) back to Christianity . In my case, possibly even bring me back to the Catholic Church
atheistexchristian 3 weeks ago
@LoveBeingAPriest Thank you for your kind thoughts. However, praying for someone is apparently somewhat harmful to them. Google for this: 'step prayer study'. It will lead you to a 2006 scientific paper (number 16569567 at PubMed). The conclusion: "Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."
farvision 3 weeks ago
@LoveBeingAPriest
Fr TJ, It is good to see you posting on the thread. I hope we will hear more from you. I can not speak for other atheists, as we are not a unified group and have only one characteristic in common, but I personally wasn't offended by your 'jackhammer' comment - only perterbed by your misconception.
I consider myself open to any persuasion about belief in God; I am merely unconvinced.
I think lack of openness is a requirement of the faithful, not the atheist.
SAHBfan 3 weeks ago
@LoveBeingAPriest
Hi Fr TJ! Thanks for posting, I can understand that the prospect of posting here may have been daunting. Again, I commend you for being willing to engage in the conversation, discussion may not lead to agreement, but hopefully it leads to understanding. As for the jackhammer comment, I'm not offended by it, but it does seem a bit presumptuous. I think I'm a fairly open, if forthright and blunt person. Anyway, best to you and have a great day!
rohanwotan2 3 weeks ago
It seems ironic for someone to claim others are "hard-hearted" (which I take to mean "stubborn" and unwilling to open themselves to new views) while also claiming they will never change their mind on something no matter what.
zetanato 3 weeks ago
What if Father TJ is wrong and Vishnu is the one true god? Has he hardened his heart to the love and joy of Vishnu? Can he see how funny that statement is when used with another god? My heart isn't hardened. If anything, I'm open to the possibility that a god may exist. If some clear, definitive evidence could be provided I would become a believer. But so far there isn't a shred of evidence, as unsettling as that is to believers.
TheCurmudgen 3 weeks ago
Mr. Tarte, I just wanted to leave a comment saying how much I love watching what you have to say! I too am an Atheist and I feel the same way about only knowing god exists if he were to clearly show himself. Anyways, thank you for being here, its great to see fellow Atheists being so kind and open minded, especially towards religious folks.
404PageNotSummer 3 weeks ago
If God exists then he has given us life which can be fun and terrible. I reckon when I die I will just stop functioning. There is no way I want to go heaven because there are no "challenges". In the same way "Hell" will not present any challenges. Overall the outcome is very boring.
flyingfisbeefilms 3 weeks ago
Father TJ, there appears to be a massive misunderstanding as to what the bulk of Christians seem to think about atheism, put very simply, it's a lack of belief in god.(Edward states this very point at the start of ALL his atheism video's). We are not god haters, nihilists, satanists etc. Just as a Christian wouldn't believe in fairies and goblins, we just go one further, and add god to the list. If I see any credible evidence I will happily change my view.
bonnie43uk 3 weeks ago
Dear Mr TJ,. Mr Tarte quotes you as saying in response to his "Dilemma" video "he [you] would never budge". What is your reason for this stance?
toppledgod 3 weeks ago
as matt dillahunty stated one time "my heart pumps blood" so im not sure 'feelings', if that's what he meant, have place in a rational discussion.
spinoroni 3 weeks ago
Well, Father TJ is a good man.
Cheers
ekhaat 3 weeks ago
If we don't have a consensus on what may or may not lie after death, at least we have nonhostile discussions with each side acknowledging the others' merits. It's definitely preferable to hurling abuse towards each other (which, in a weird way, was what inspired this dialogue between Mr. Tarte and Fr. TJ...)
SmallGreenPlanetoid 3 weeks ago
Great video!
phoenixbrew 3 weeks ago
You might reply to f. TJ that praying is right next to doing nothing. Giving $1.00 to cancer research would do far more….
apeek7 3 weeks ago 3
@apeek7 see my note about the STEP study ...
praying either does nothing or harms those who are prayed at (on?).
farvision 3 weeks ago
Next time you are ask, “What if you are wrong” you might consider saying:
“Then I guess I have one of 30,000 possibilities, for there are 30,000 or more religions” For instance, if the correct one is the Jewish God, then I will go down to Sheol where it says, “As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up…” (Job 7:9)
apeek7 3 weeks ago
May Allah bless "TJ" on his path to discovering him.
Before it is to late....
qarohc 3 weeks ago 2
Father TJ;
First, although I do not think any god is going to bless me, I thank you for the sentiment.
Second, referring to jackhammers, it is only the feather of empirical evidence we need to change our positions.
toddlusk 3 weeks ago
I'm not bewildered by his Jackhammar comment. It just seems like more cognitive dissonance to me. It's something I've discussed earlier this month at my blog TheMidwestAtheist dot blogspot dot com (not to advertise, but there's too much for 500 chars here). In short, the idea is that (I posted this on the second video as well) we atheists can't be simply rejecting God because of lack of evidence. God is obvious (to him)! Therefore atheists must have a character flaw. It also boosts his own ego
TheMidwestAtheist 3 weeks ago
Father TJ, I am perfectly willing to change my stance when substantial evidence is provided to me.
Once you understand why you reject Zeus, you'll understand why I reject Yahweh.
QuantumGh0st 3 weeks ago
@QuantumGh0st, yes, I told him that if he and I would sit down and list all the hundreds of gods in whose existence we do not believe because of lack of evidence, our lists would be identical except that I would have one more entry in my list than he would have in his; and that if he understood this, he could begin to understand why I do not believe in his god. But he has not responded to this. His blanket response so far is that he will not budge.
edwardtarte 3 weeks ago
@edwardtarte My bet is that he realizes this is a trap. My inference from my experience has been that at a certain point theists stop talking because they recognize that their position is unsupported, but they are not willing to admit it. They are also unwilling to admit this situation, so they clam up.
farvision 3 weeks ago
I really irritates me how Christians use the term "hardened heart" to imply that we are heartless or cold-hearted if we don't believe what they do. Clearly Father TJ's heart is hardened toward other religions. He said himself that he won't budge.
theshredator 3 weeks ago
Of course his faith is unmoveable. Otherwise he'd have to get a proper job.
pilgrimpater 3 weeks ago
TJ: Pascal's wager.. seriously ? that's the most ridiculous and coward argument ever.
eduard : No, Thank *you* for posting this video, have fun !
elvigia666 3 weeks ago
re FTJ thanking you for strengthening his faith.
That is always a risk. A person that fears his god, fears losing his faith. To protect himself he will cocoon himself in twisted versions of the very logic that threatens to free him. This fear of their god's punishment is a powerful hindrance to honest reasoning, but what kind of all-loving god would use fear to force others to worship him. What kind of all-loving god would require worship at all.
Blackmark52 3 weeks ago
This is an extremely engaging and productive exchange! Thank you both for taking the effort and time to conduct this dialogue in public!
chalkstuff 3 weeks ago
@chalkstuff, thank you for the comment. Engaging, perhaps. Productive, I have very serious doubts.
edwardtarte 3 weeks ago
@edwardtarte I think that every engagement of this kind is one more chink out of the armor of theists. That's why everything you are doing is so important. The results may not appear for years, but I think that TJ will have doubts about his mythology and carry those with him.
farvision 3 weeks ago
@farvision No doubts here, but thanks for your concern. I hope you have a great week!
Fr. T.J.
LoveBeingAPriest 3 weeks ago
@edwardtarte
I fear you are wasting the most important thing in your life, TIME.
Preach to the choir, and spend time with those sitting on the fence, but don't waste one minute with those that profess to believe.
" I believe in the talking snake, and I believe in the magic fruit tree, and I believe you're going to hell If you don't believe me !!!"
My question for clergy is: What's it like to lie to children for a living?
dkleitsch 3 weeks ago
@dkleitsch,I am offering to TJ,via the Internet,the same thing that was offered to me by reading,listening,discussion 2 1/2 years into my priesthood--namely,a challenge to rigidly-held Catholic beliefs and practicesThose who offered the challenge to me back then were,apart from my parents who gave me life and raised me,probably the greatest benefactors I ever had.They gave me the impetus to break free from a wasted life.Maybe that will help you to understand why I am communicating with TJ.
edwardtarte 3 weeks ago
@edwardtarte
So at best his belief is from diminished capacity? I can accept that, but not his attitude towards reason and evidence (from this point forward).
dkleitsch 3 weeks ago
@dkleitsch, lying is by definition intentional deception. All the evidence I have says that TJ is sincerely convinced that he is imparting truth. This does not satisfy the definition of lying.
edwardtarte 3 weeks ago
The refusal to budge in the face of contradictory evidence is the hallmark of religion. Just came from a 2 day debacle with two ppl who rejected evidence, straw manned arguments, failed to define their own position while claiming they did, and freely engaged in insults with posters who supported their own positions while showing the holes in the rligious position. The second I replied with an insult of my own I was castigated for abusing YT posters :D So sadly, I went full tilt.
shkotay 3 weeks ago
It is obvious why TJ would defend his belief in this way. What is he supposed to do if he agrees that his religion is false? It would take an exceptionally brave person to do what you did, Edward. TJ, you seem to be in search of the truth....since you're keeping this dialog open. Your logical thinking will destroy your illogical faith eventually.
okarab 3 weeks ago
@okarab, I find no evidence whatsoever that TJ is in search of truth. Everything he has said to me indicates that he is of the same state of mind as I was during the first two and a half years of my priesthood: he is absolutely convinced that he has the truth.
edwardtarte 3 weeks ago
@edwardtarte
"find no evidence whatsoever that TJ is in search of truth. "
No, but is he prepared to talk, and to do so in a none aggressive way. He does not try to dismiss & suppress dialogue in the way that Rev Lyle does. In that way, apart from being a better Pastor than Lyle (who it appears has difficulty dealing in a civil way with people who disagree with him), TJ can at least be talked to. It may take a long time, but the first step to opening your mind is surely to listen?
SAHBfan 3 weeks ago
@SAHBfan, yes, I agree with you fully.
edwardtarte 3 weeks ago
your the man ed...
theanachyofreligion 3 weeks ago in playlist Religion: Catholic Church
"I will not budge."
This is the key for so many religious people. It isn't the indoctrination, it isn't the ignorance, it isn't the illogic or immorality (though these all play a part)--it's the stubbornness and the unwillingness to admit when you are mistaken.
CalebAlucardtheHagan 3 weeks ago
@CalebAlucardtheHagan Or it could be an unshakeable faith. Fr. T.J.
LoveBeingAPriest 3 weeks ago
@LoveBeingAPriest That's just as problematic, as what you've said essentially equates to a firm conviction in that which cannot be proven, doesn't want to be proven, and is unprovable. This is not a passable explanation or justification for one's beliefs, especially when such beliefs carry the condemnation of people like Edward and myself to eternal torment literally for not being credulous enough to complacently accept superstitious nonsense for no good reason (i.e., "an unshakeable faith").
CalebAlucardtheHagan 3 weeks ago
@LoveBeingAPriest Isn't, not budging is the same as saying "I am closed minded"? Why not even entertain the idea that what you believe might be false? Isn't it better to dwell in reality, rather than some fairy story you've been told? The dangerous thing about your position is you spread the same stories you've been told to others. Perhaps you need to keep the belief to stop the house from crumbling down (so to speak)? It is your career/life after all. Please give reality a go!
LAnonHubbard 3 weeks ago
Please send him a link to Daniel Dennet's Clergy Project. He looks young enough to get out and make a living doing something else.
a300pilotster 3 weeks ago
I would like to say to TJ that my heart is not hard. I think that I am a good person and I do try to make the world a better place. In my first language (portuguese), there is a proverb that says "the hearts of other people are a ground one will never step into". I do not think TJ's heart is hard because he does not agree with me. Actually, I do not know him so I can not make any assumptions on his feelings.
sandrodecott 3 weeks ago
got a link to his sermon?
waksibra 3 weeks ago
@waksibra, I have answered your question in a personal message.
edwardtarte 3 weeks ago
@edwardtarte thanks
waksibra 3 weeks ago
It's rather sad that the best argument for belief that Fr TJ has is Pascal's Wager. But, it does mean that we are winning, because their arguments haven't advanced a whit for millenia. Meanwhile, rationality and science continue to make people's lives demonstrably better.
When I viewed the comments, they were generally positive to TJ on a personal level, but critical of his beliefs. May FSM touch Fr TJ with his Noodly Appendage and bathe him in His Saucy Goodness!
rohanwotan2 3 weeks ago
@rohanwotan2, TJ may not know about the Flying Spaghetti Monster:)
edwardtarte 3 weeks ago
I think your responses were spot on. Kudos!
AmunRaRocks 3 weeks ago
TJ may I offer you a warm hug of reason. I feel that Mr.Tarte is correct in his reasoning in this video. If you were born in another part of the world you would surely be a member of another religion. Take care.
bigboy45454545 3 weeks ago